People's Park was a major local landmark with a long history that is well known to students, faculty, residents, and alumni. It had become a home to otherwise homeless people whose existence was inconvenient for the university's expansion plans and an eyesore to arrogant passersby.
The park's history includes both civil and violent disobedience, including against the university itself.
It would not be surprising to hear that, whatever is built on this lot, it is subsequently destroyed by an act of arson or other vandalism.
I am surprised they are taking the risk and making the investment at all. IMO it would have been safer to just buy some of the private properties surrounding the park instead, even at a premium.
A handful of Molotov's at night once a week during construction can make it very expensive to build something.
Sugar will completely eliminate concrete’s ability to cure. A single pound of sugar can destroy an entire truck of wet cement.
Not that I’m advocating for it. But it’s laughably easy to sneak onto a site with a hardhat, safety boots and a vest, and sabotage active construction.
Although I'm unsure about the pound of sugar to entire cement truck claim.
Yeah, a cement truck is like 45,000 lbs of concrete, which is .002%. Apparently .06% will delay setting by 90 minutes, so it's more like 30 pounds?
Now i know, I remembered the MythBusters episode where they bury two pigs in concrete, I think it's the one with Jimmy Hoffa, that will definitely discourage anyone from living in the apartments.
Damn. I didn't knew that so I did some quick research and found out, that mixing in 1% of sugar can completely stop the forming of concrete.
They're going to molotov concrete and steel?
Cool.
Cool cool cool.
No, a construction site contains plenty other stuff than concrete and steel: tools, equipment, building materials, temporary buildings for the workers, cables and piping.
On top of that each time concrete gets fire damage, it gets weaker and may need to be replaced, at least core samples + weeks of analysis time + $$$ is needed to determine the damage.
And let's say they eventually finish building the apartments, they may never stop smelling like a BBQ.
And then they need to hire 24/7 security, and maybe new workers because they don't want to work in a DMZ.
Ya...ok...have fun with that.
Thanks, I did have fun coming up with ideas.
No problem. These childish collective fantasies are fun, aren't they? Yup, they're fun right up until a bullet rips through your chest when you're trying to climb through the smashed out window of the barricaded doors to the Speaker's Lobby or the FBI is kicking down your door three years later. It's fun in your head when your enemies are incompetent boobs and everything goes your way. In reality you get arrested and/or injured/killed and the buildings get built anyway.
EDIT 2: I went looking for a name for the childish collective fantasies but couldn't find one. The best I could come up with is a naïve collective fantasy that grew in an epistemic bubble inside an echo bunker. No one bothered to ask "What then?" or, "What will the consequences be if things go wrong and we are caught and held accountable for our actions?" Ashli Babbit and the neo-fascist red hats never considered the, "What ifs" right up until the moment the bullet ripped through her chest. At that point they realized, "Holy fuck, they're shooting at us." Everyone else watching on TV expected that to happen on a slaughterous scale much earlier yet they were surprised that it happened to one of them. Someone was not using their critical thinking skills.
I like your analytical approach to this silly discussion 👍
I have Asperger's. It's what we do. Pure critical thinking.
Apparently just a kilogram of sugar mixed into a ton of concrete will destroy the ability of it to actually function correctly as concrete. But I learned this here on Lemmy and have not checked the veracity of it, so take it with a pinch (handful?) of salt.
It's accurate or close to it.. Some concrete truck drivers will keep bottles of coke to pour in there in emergencies where they need to make sure it doesn't set inside the truck.
What happens to the spiked concrete? Can they add something else to counteract the sugar later?
I'm a sweets guys, so I'll take it with a pinch of sugar, thanks.
You figure the cement trucks will pull up to a sugar table so that protesters can add a few bags of sugar to each one? That seems unlikely. It also seems unlikely that anyone could get enough sugar deep enough into any structural element to cause any real damage.
No for the concrete you use sugar, and for the steel... I don't know maybe jet fuel or something.
How do you figure they will get the sugar into the concrete?
It’s a controversial local issue and in my lifetime I’ve seen local opinion shift from strongly anti-University to now mostly in favor of development.
I credit this to the original activists dying of old age, combined with a younger generation that has never known the park as anything except a place where people overdose in tents.
Haha, their take is pretty charged but it's valid imo.
They're building student and homeless housing on it and leaving half the park.
Oh, that's probably going to mitigate some of the risk. Hey, maybe it'll be enough!
Berkeley wants to turn the park into housing and I guess they hope the wall will keep protesters out.
Surround the park with shipping containers, and done! It is now 100% dystopia appropriate housing!
Berkeley wants to turn the park where homeless people are staying into housing for homeless and undergraduates... While refreshing 60% of the park.
Why are people upset about housing homeless and undergrads? Is this some NIMBY shit but people dont think it's NIMBY because it's their park this time?
Obviously people are upset because public space is being taken away for this.
Berkeley is a public school. They’re building government housing. But, it doesn’t matter to the groups who see outrage as a virtue and stall the progress they neverendingly clamor for.
Yes... That's what NIMBYism is.
No NIMBYs only care about property values. That's not what this is.
NIMBYs care about all sorts of things and are staunchly against progress and housing the young and poor alike. This is entirely NIMBYism dressed up in progressive aesthetics and language.
Or, and this might be difficult to follow, make one of the adjacent buildings into homes and keep the park too?
Since there are already buildings there and between zoning, tearing down existing buildings, building height limitations, parking minimums, moving tenants out, and possibly no net gain in units after new buildings are constructed what is accomplished?
Anyways miss me with the tone and do some actual investigation into this complexity.
Correct sometimes doing what's best is a little more complicated. I'm glad you figured that out.
It's truly incredible how ignorant you can be about this while also feeling you can talk down. I hope you one day take an actual real look at the very real and brutal housing issues around us.
Negative one downvote?
Yeah wtf haha
If you ever notice construction is stalled in your city, it's because it's a racket.
They low bid the contract.
They take contract.
Work stops because they didn't ask for enough money.
They're already there, it'd cost too much to fire them or move their supplies and equipment. They know this so they drag their feet until the client pays more.
Construction begins again.
I work in construction insurance, protecting the government and investors against construction companies that do this. Our underwriters study the project, the construction company history and everything related and we qoute a price that the construction company should pay even before the government or the investors transfer anything. If the construction company or the project fail for any reason we take control over the project and find a new construction company to complete it. After that, our lawyers go after everything owned by the construction company and their executives to try to recoup anything we can.
fucking based.
I'm curious about your opinion on what the reason that construction takes longer and costs more in the US than in other countries is.
I wish our construction was like in Japan. Instead we have the worst, slowest companies in the Chicago area. How does it take months or even years to fix a road AND they start a new project a mile away on the same road at the same speed. Then somehow the road end up bumpy anyway cause they didn't fix around the manhole covers correctly.
I visit friends in Chicago every year. There's a place on the interstate that has been under construction for 5 years. It's just like one lane they've been paving. What the heck?
There are a few roads in the suburbs that will have something finish getting fixed only for the same exact road to be torn up again for something else cause they didn't coordinate. One time I saw a road get repaved cause it needed it, then half of it was torn back up to do some sort of maintenance, once that was fixed and repaved more of that area got torn up to change out some water stuff and drains, then a year later the whole road is torn up again to be repaved because now it's been 5-6 years and parts of it need it.
I have had my road replaced three times in 5 years because first they installed new gas lines, then they installed new water lines, and that damaged the gas lines so they needed to fix them in a bunch of places.
I don't live or work at the US, so I don't think my opinion is worth more than shit. But I would guess you are mixing private with public projects. Private projects usually go on schedule because they're not a lot of parties involved and everyone wants to finish the project asap to start a new a one. With public ones you have a lot of people involved because everyone and their granma think their opinion is valid and they are being affected. But this is the same on basically everywhere on the world, except maybe China.
Every public construction in germany ever
The law really need to be changed when it comes to this stuff, I'd rather take the inefficiency or even corruption than this (also inefficient and corrupt) nonsense.
The shipping containers make it so much more dystopian, and calling it “The People’s Park” is just bad writing, even for schlocky YA fiction.
Even more dystopian if you know the park's history
I do, but I was writing from the perspective that it was invented for the Hunger Games.
I'm sorry, I didn't intend to imply that you didn't.
@ChatGPT@lemmings.world Can you tell me about significant historical events occurring in The People’s Park in California?
People's Park in Berkeley, California, has been a notable site for community activity and protest since its inception in the late 1960s. Below are some significant historical events associated with People's Park:
Establishment and Initial Conflict (1969): Originating from an undeveloped piece of University of California-owned land, People's Park was created by community members who sought to use the space for a public park. Tensions between university officials and park supporters led to a major confrontation on May 15, 1969, known as "Bloody Thursday," when Governor Ronald Reagan ordered the California Highway Patrol and Berkeley police to reclaim the land. This resulted in violent clashes, and one bystander, James Rector, was killed by police gunfire.
Continued Activism and Protests: Over the years, People's Park has been a hub for political activism, protests, and countercultural events, reflecting the broader historical movements and changes taking place in American society. Anti-war protests during the Vietnam era, advocacy for homeless rights, and demonstrations against various social issues frequently took place in the park.
Development Threats: The park’s existence has been threatened several times by development proposals from the University of California. These threats have often been met with protests and community action to preserve the park for public use.
Anniversary and Recognition: The park celebrated significant anniversaries with events that brought together community members and activists to reflect on its historical significance. On its 50th anniversary in 2019, there were commemorations of the struggles and achievements associated with the park.
Ongoing Role as a Community Space: Despite facing challenges, People's Park has remained an important community space for Berkeley residents and a symbol of grassroots activism. It serves not only as a recreational area but also as a locus for community gardening, social services, and cultural expression.
People's Park's story is deeply entwined with the broader narrative of social change in America, and it continues to be an emblematic site for collective action and memory in the community.
So this is why all the third places have dissappeared, greed? Man, fuck this dystopia.
Exactly. Parents tell their kids to go play outside, without looking at the "outside" they've created.
fascinating hunger games is having such a cultural resurgence given how shitty everything in our world is. i love the series but christ every scene is dark and depressing
Didn't a new Hunger Games movie just hit theaters? I assumed most of this stuff was a result of their marketing campaign..
It's probably not that. People just like to reference things that are culturally relevant.
Feels prescient, at the moment
it's all a direct ripoff from a japanese book and movie...
Nah, they're different genres.
Hunger games is a power fantasy.
Battle Royale is horror.
it's the exact same story, slightly reframed... and then sequelized
I cannot wait until they finally pave over that violent shithole.
People’s Park supporters have their heads so far up their asses they can’t smell the meth’d up rapists that have kept anyone else from enjoying this “park”
May the odds be ever in your favor.
Gives me infamous vibes.
Kowloon, the walled city...
Nope, just chuck testa with another realistic dead shipping container wall
People's Park was a major local landmark with a long history that is well known to students, faculty, residents, and alumni. It had become a home to otherwise homeless people whose existence was inconvenient for the university's expansion plans and an eyesore to arrogant passersby.
The park's history includes both civil and violent disobedience, including against the university itself.
It would not be surprising to hear that, whatever is built on this lot, it is subsequently destroyed by an act of arson or other vandalism.
I am surprised they are taking the risk and making the investment at all. IMO it would have been safer to just buy some of the private properties surrounding the park instead, even at a premium.
A handful of Molotov's at night once a week during construction can make it very expensive to build something.
Sugar will completely eliminate concrete’s ability to cure. A single pound of sugar can destroy an entire truck of wet cement.
Not that I’m advocating for it. But it’s laughably easy to sneak onto a site with a hardhat, safety boots and a vest, and sabotage active construction.
Neat: https://fritzpak.com/is-sugar-a-good-concrete-retarder/
Although I'm unsure about the pound of sugar to entire cement truck claim.
Yeah, a cement truck is like 45,000 lbs of concrete, which is .002%. Apparently .06% will delay setting by 90 minutes, so it's more like 30 pounds?
Now i know, I remembered the MythBusters episode where they bury two pigs in concrete, I think it's the one with Jimmy Hoffa, that will definitely discourage anyone from living in the apartments.
Damn. I didn't knew that so I did some quick research and found out, that mixing in 1% of sugar can completely stop the forming of concrete.
They're going to molotov concrete and steel?
Cool.
Cool cool cool.
No, a construction site contains plenty other stuff than concrete and steel: tools, equipment, building materials, temporary buildings for the workers, cables and piping.
On top of that each time concrete gets fire damage, it gets weaker and may need to be replaced, at least core samples + weeks of analysis time + $$$ is needed to determine the damage.
And let's say they eventually finish building the apartments, they may never stop smelling like a BBQ.
And then they need to hire 24/7 security, and maybe new workers because they don't want to work in a DMZ.
Ya...ok...have fun with that.
Thanks, I did have fun coming up with ideas.
No problem. These childish collective fantasies are fun, aren't they? Yup, they're fun right up until a bullet rips through your chest when you're trying to climb through the smashed out window of the barricaded doors to the Speaker's Lobby or the FBI is kicking down your door three years later. It's fun in your head when your enemies are incompetent boobs and everything goes your way. In reality you get arrested and/or injured/killed and the buildings get built anyway.
EDIT: 3 years later. Remeber right afterwards when they said that the FBI would lose interest and that there was no way they would arrest and try everyone. It seems to quaint, now.
EDIT 2: I went looking for a name for the childish collective fantasies but couldn't find one. The best I could come up with is a naïve collective fantasy that grew in an epistemic bubble inside an echo bunker. No one bothered to ask "What then?" or, "What will the consequences be if things go wrong and we are caught and held accountable for our actions?" Ashli Babbit and the neo-fascist red hats never considered the, "What ifs" right up until the moment the bullet ripped through her chest. At that point they realized, "Holy fuck, they're shooting at us." Everyone else watching on TV expected that to happen on a slaughterous scale much earlier yet they were surprised that it happened to one of them. Someone was not using their critical thinking skills.
I like your analytical approach to this silly discussion 👍
I have Asperger's. It's what we do. Pure critical thinking.
Apparently just a kilogram of sugar mixed into a ton of concrete will destroy the ability of it to actually function correctly as concrete. But I learned this here on Lemmy and have not checked the veracity of it, so take it with a pinch (handful?) of salt.
It's accurate or close to it.. Some concrete truck drivers will keep bottles of coke to pour in there in emergencies where they need to make sure it doesn't set inside the truck.
What happens to the spiked concrete? Can they add something else to counteract the sugar later?
I'm a sweets guys, so I'll take it with a pinch of sugar, thanks.
From what I read you need about 1% of sugar to completely stop the process. Anything below will slow down the process, but it isn't capable of stopping the process. If you're interested in the Article here ya go(it's in German) https://www.bft-international.com/de/artikel/bft_Einfluss_von_Saccharose_auf_den_Erhaertungsprozess_von_Zementsuspensionen-3720251.html
You figure the cement trucks will pull up to a sugar table so that protesters can add a few bags of sugar to each one? That seems unlikely. It also seems unlikely that anyone could get enough sugar deep enough into any structural element to cause any real damage.
No for the concrete you use sugar, and for the steel... I don't know maybe jet fuel or something.
How do you figure they will get the sugar into the concrete?
I low-key wish I could put you and @deegeese@sopuli.xyz in a jar and shake it.
In the nicest way.
It’s a controversial local issue and in my lifetime I’ve seen local opinion shift from strongly anti-University to now mostly in favor of development.
I credit this to the original activists dying of old age, combined with a younger generation that has never known the park as anything except a place where people overdose in tents.
Haha, their take is pretty charged but it's valid imo.
They're building student and homeless housing on it and leaving half the park.
Oh, that's probably going to mitigate some of the risk. Hey, maybe it'll be enough!
…but why
Berkeley wants to turn the park into housing and I guess they hope the wall will keep protesters out.
Surround the park with shipping containers, and done! It is now 100% dystopia appropriate housing!
Berkeley wants to turn the park where homeless people are staying into housing for homeless and undergraduates... While refreshing 60% of the park.
Why are people upset about housing homeless and undergrads? Is this some NIMBY shit but people dont think it's NIMBY because it's their park this time?
https://peoplesparkhousing.berkeley.edu/
Obviously people are upset because public space is being taken away for this.
Berkeley is a public school. They’re building government housing. But, it doesn’t matter to the groups who see outrage as a virtue and stall the progress they neverendingly clamor for.
Yes... That's what NIMBYism is.
No NIMBYs only care about property values. That's not what this is.
NIMBYs care about all sorts of things and are staunchly against progress and housing the young and poor alike. This is entirely NIMBYism dressed up in progressive aesthetics and language.
Or, and this might be difficult to follow, make one of the adjacent buildings into homes and keep the park too?
Since there are already buildings there and between zoning, tearing down existing buildings, building height limitations, parking minimums, moving tenants out, and possibly no net gain in units after new buildings are constructed what is accomplished?
Anyways miss me with the tone and do some actual investigation into this complexity.
Correct sometimes doing what's best is a little more complicated. I'm glad you figured that out.
It's truly incredible how ignorant you can be about this while also feeling you can talk down. I hope you one day take an actual real look at the very real and brutal housing issues around us.
Negative one downvote?
Yeah wtf haha
If you ever notice construction is stalled in your city, it's because it's a racket.
They low bid the contract.
They take contract.
Work stops because they didn't ask for enough money.
They're already there, it'd cost too much to fire them or move their supplies and equipment. They know this so they drag their feet until the client pays more.
Construction begins again.
I work in construction insurance, protecting the government and investors against construction companies that do this. Our underwriters study the project, the construction company history and everything related and we qoute a price that the construction company should pay even before the government or the investors transfer anything. If the construction company or the project fail for any reason we take control over the project and find a new construction company to complete it. After that, our lawyers go after everything owned by the construction company and their executives to try to recoup anything we can.
fucking based.
I'm curious about your opinion on what the reason that construction takes longer and costs more in the US than in other countries is.
I wish our construction was like in Japan. Instead we have the worst, slowest companies in the Chicago area. How does it take months or even years to fix a road AND they start a new project a mile away on the same road at the same speed. Then somehow the road end up bumpy anyway cause they didn't fix around the manhole covers correctly.
I visit friends in Chicago every year. There's a place on the interstate that has been under construction for 5 years. It's just like one lane they've been paving. What the heck?
There are a few roads in the suburbs that will have something finish getting fixed only for the same exact road to be torn up again for something else cause they didn't coordinate. One time I saw a road get repaved cause it needed it, then half of it was torn back up to do some sort of maintenance, once that was fixed and repaved more of that area got torn up to change out some water stuff and drains, then a year later the whole road is torn up again to be repaved because now it's been 5-6 years and parts of it need it.
I have had my road replaced three times in 5 years because first they installed new gas lines, then they installed new water lines, and that damaged the gas lines so they needed to fix them in a bunch of places.
I don't live or work at the US, so I don't think my opinion is worth more than shit. But I would guess you are mixing private with public projects. Private projects usually go on schedule because they're not a lot of parties involved and everyone wants to finish the project asap to start a new a one. With public ones you have a lot of people involved because everyone and their granma think their opinion is valid and they are being affected. But this is the same on basically everywhere on the world, except maybe China.
Every public construction in germany ever
The law really need to be changed when it comes to this stuff, I'd rather take the inefficiency or even corruption than this (also inefficient and corrupt) nonsense.
The shipping containers make it so much more dystopian, and calling it “The People’s Park” is just bad writing, even for schlocky YA fiction.
Even more dystopian if you know the park's history
I do, but I was writing from the perspective that it was invented for the Hunger Games.
I'm sorry, I didn't intend to imply that you didn't.
I don't, tell me.
https://itsgoingdown.org/peoples-park-in-berkeley-again-under-threat/
@ChatGPT@lemmings.world Can you tell me about significant historical events occurring in The People’s Park in California?
People's Park in Berkeley, California, has been a notable site for community activity and protest since its inception in the late 1960s. Below are some significant historical events associated with People's Park:
Establishment and Initial Conflict (1969): Originating from an undeveloped piece of University of California-owned land, People's Park was created by community members who sought to use the space for a public park. Tensions between university officials and park supporters led to a major confrontation on May 15, 1969, known as "Bloody Thursday," when Governor Ronald Reagan ordered the California Highway Patrol and Berkeley police to reclaim the land. This resulted in violent clashes, and one bystander, James Rector, was killed by police gunfire.
Continued Activism and Protests: Over the years, People's Park has been a hub for political activism, protests, and countercultural events, reflecting the broader historical movements and changes taking place in American society. Anti-war protests during the Vietnam era, advocacy for homeless rights, and demonstrations against various social issues frequently took place in the park.
Development Threats: The park’s existence has been threatened several times by development proposals from the University of California. These threats have often been met with protests and community action to preserve the park for public use.
Anniversary and Recognition: The park celebrated significant anniversaries with events that brought together community members and activists to reflect on its historical significance. On its 50th anniversary in 2019, there were commemorations of the struggles and achievements associated with the park.
Ongoing Role as a Community Space: Despite facing challenges, People's Park has remained an important community space for Berkeley residents and a symbol of grassroots activism. It serves not only as a recreational area but also as a locus for community gardening, social services, and cultural expression.
People's Park's story is deeply entwined with the broader narrative of social change in America, and it continues to be an emblematic site for collective action and memory in the community.
So this is why all the third places have dissappeared, greed? Man, fuck this dystopia.
Exactly. Parents tell their kids to go play outside, without looking at the "outside" they've created.
https://www.berkeleyside.org/2024/01/05/peoples-park-berkeley-wall-shipping-containers-history
fascinating hunger games is having such a cultural resurgence given how shitty everything in our world is. i love the series but christ every scene is dark and depressing
Didn't a new Hunger Games movie just hit theaters? I assumed most of this stuff was a result of their marketing campaign..
It's probably not that. People just like to reference things that are culturally relevant.
Feels prescient, at the moment
it's all a direct ripoff from a japanese book and movie...
Nah, they're different genres. Hunger games is a power fantasy. Battle Royale is horror.
it's the exact same story, slightly reframed... and then sequelized
Which one?
Battle Royale
Except Battle Royale is a lot darker.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_Royale_(novel)
ואין כל חדש תחת השמש
אמא שלך חדשה תחת השמש
Someone didn't get the point. It's okay.
i got it... it was just dumb
New paintball arena just dropped.
I cannot wait until they finally pave over that violent shithole.
People’s Park supporters have their heads so far up their asses they can’t smell the meth’d up rapists that have kept anyone else from enjoying this “park”
May the odds be ever in your favor.
Gives me infamous vibes.
Kowloon, the walled city...
Nope, just chuck testa with another realistic dead shipping container wall