Do they think Trump would be better than Biden when it comes to Palestinians? The Trump that moved the US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem to signal that it was an Israeli city?
"I’ll put my cards on the table: I’m a permanent resident of the US which means I’m not allowed to vote."
Then you can STFU and sit down. You want to be able to vote? Get your citizenship. My daughter-in-law JUST did. This will be her first election. She's not going to do anything that supports a Trump win.
I'll blame each and every eligible person who didn't show up to vote for him, regardless of what their excuse is. This isn't the time to be playing around.
Looks like the US is going to get some tough love.
Turns out you can't just fund, supply and cast UN vetoes in support of the genocide of an entire people and still get unconditional support at the ballot box, whoda thunkit.
And yes, the consequences are going to be hideous.
I guess you should have thought of that, what with everyone telling you over and over and over.
Cabin in the Woods moment, and you brought it on yourselves.
Does this mean that the victims of the next genocide the democrats preside over can blame you for supporting the last one unconditionally?
When is the time to be 'playing around?' Your phrase gets repeated every single election meaning you're doing nothing more than reinforcing the status quo.
This is the behavior of sycophants and rivals that of the MAGA base. "Shut up, don't criticize, and mindlessly vote for my guy, or it's the end of the world as we know it!"
The primary. A general election in which a fascist like Donald Trump isn't the only other viable option.
Like it or not, we have a two party system. Either Biden's going to be the next president, or Trump is. When it comes to the general election, if you do anything besides voting for Biden, you're complicit in electing Trump.
If you back Biden and he loses, you're also directly responsible for electing Trump. Another candidate would have beaten him.
Which candidate, specifically, A) Wants to be president and is willing to run, B) Is better than Biden on the issues you mentioned, and C) Has a reasonable chance of beating Trump in the general election?
I'm dead serious, pitch me a name.
Sanders 2016. Americans still defending the system tho ¯\(ツ)/¯
Sanders isn't running this election. In fact, he's supporting Biden. He's not a reasonable option to try to dump Biden for.
But you won't blame the Biden administration for disregarding the wishes of their constituents?
Do you (or anyone who thinks not voting for Biden is a smart thing) think that Trump would do anything differently? Because those are the two choices. If you don't vote for Biden then you are either voting for Trump or helping Trump by taking away votes from Biden... unless you live in a blue or red state where your vote doesn't matter anyway.
I do blame Biden for how he is handling this situation. However, I am smart enough to understand that there is more than one situation that a president has to handle while in office. For the most part, Biden has honored the wishes of me as a constituent. If the only thing you care about in life is how the President of the US handles a conflict on the other side of the world, as opposed to the US economy, civil rights in the US, US Supreme Court justices, US circuit court judges, environmental policy in the US, etc., then that is your right as a voter. I hate what is going on over in Gaza (and the region in general), but I also care about is going on in the country I live in.
If you don’t vote for Biden then you are either voting for Trump or helping Trump
I'm so tired of this rhetoric. Let people vote for who they believe in without shaming them. Americans should not be strong armed into voting for a candidate they don't actually want.
Let people vote for who they believe in without shaming them.
Voting is like freedom of speech. Everyone is free to vote for whoever they want, but they aren't immune from criticism for how they vote. If someone votes for a guy who says he'll "be a dictator on day one" and encourage Russia to "do whatever the hell they want", I'm gonna shame that person for supporting such an insupportable candidate who espouses such insane ideas.
If Biden is polling to lose and Trump ends up winning, you're also supporting Trump by backing a losing candidate and handing the election over to Trump.
To be clear, I was directly responding to someone who was claiming that not voting for Biden is like voting for Trump. I hate that rhetoric and it's not true. If you want to blame someone for Trump winning, you blame the people that voted for him.
Sure, but what I'd say is I'll still say in this fricken 2 party system, you also have to justify not going for the lesser of two evils, however you define that. And if your position is "I want someone to stop Israel continuing their war on Hamas", you also have to contend with the idea that neither option is likely to do what you want. This just reads to me like throwing a fit that mommy brought you peas instead of beans with your dinner and saying you want daddy, when he's not bringing any food at all.
I don't have to justify not voting for the lesser evil when I can vote for an option that is, in my opinion of course, not evil at all. I encourage every American to vote, and vote for who you actually want to be the President, not just against who you don't want.
At first, I thought you weren't American and weren't aware of how the system works.
I'm not American, but I do know that if you live somewhere where your vote matters, you would improving Trump's odds of winning.
If your riding already has a victor predetermined, then sure, vote for whomever you want. But if you're in a swing state or anything like that, then not voting for Biden means helping Trump win.
You can hate how it works all you want, but it won't change the reality of the situation.
then not voting for Biden means helping Trump win.
No, it doesn't, and loops right back around to the rhetoric that started my whole comment chain here.
A vote for Trump helps Trump win. If Trump got no votes, Trump would not win. The responsibility for electing Trump rests squarely on the shoulders of those who voted for Trump. No one else.
No, it doesn't
Yes it does...
If Trump got no votes, Trump would not win.
Because this is impossible. The Republicans will always get some votes.
If only one Republican voted for Trump, and no Democrats bothered to vote, the Democrats helped Trump win by not voting.
If instead of 0 Democrats, 2 came out to vote and Biden won? Then all Republicans who didn't vote helped Biden win.
If you have the opportunity to change the outcome, but you don't take action to make the change, you're responsible for your part in the result.
Sure, but you also said not to shame people for how they vote. I responded specifically to that statement and not the others because I understand wanting to vote for a candidate you actually want in office.
Unfortunately, strategic voting has to occur in order for things to get better in the USA. Until we massively overhaul the voting system, voters need to understand that you either vote for the lesser of two evils, or are (albeit passively) contributing to the greater of two evils' ascent to power.
Even far-left progressives like Bernie Sanders or Noam Chomsky were like, "Dude, you gotta vote for the Democratic candidate or else these crazy far-right candidates are gonna push the country further to the right. At least if the Democratic candidate wins we either stay where we are, or maybe get to move a bit further left during their tenure."
It's a deeply flawed system, but in the general election, it's a simple calculus. There's nothing Biden could do to lose my vote in November because I owe it to our society (and our allies worldwide) to prevent another Trump term.
I said that as a direct response to someone saying not voting for Biden is like voting for Trump. I wasn't trying to make some general statement. I don't know how else to say that.
If you want to judge a Trump voter for voting for Trump, judge them on that merit. Don't judge someone that didn't vote for Trump if Trump wins, that's bullshit.
Okay but we're in a 2 party system. It sucks, but it is what it is. It's either Biden or Trump winning no matter how you feel on the matter.
Both of them support Israel, one with slowly(very slowly, yes) waning support and the other essentially saying he'd gladly help turn Palestine into rubble.
Domestically, Biden has been doing pretty good. The rail strike was a fiasco but besides that he's mostly been a small step forward from Obama.
Meanwhile, Trump is Trump. His first term was a complete disaster for the country, and now he's outright saying he'll be a dictator rounding up the "enemy", he's saying he won't defend our allies from Russia, he's well and truly dementia-addled now(Mercedes? oof), etc...
Voting for Trump is far worse obviously, but not voting against him still makes it more likely he wins. Just as you have the freedom to make that decision, I have the freedom to judge the shit out of you for it.
Okay but we're in a 2 party system. It sucks, but it is what it is. It's either Biden or Trump winning no matter how you feel on the matter.
Ever consider that we only get to choose between these two parties because people like you fear mongering and demanding everyone maintain the status quo?
If it's guaranteed that Trump or Biden are winning then elections are obviously foregone conclusions, our votes don't really matter, and neither party has any reason to ever change because they're guaranteed to hold at least 50% of power at any given time. We might as well eliminate ballots and just automatically declare a winner based on party registration numbers.
If you are eligible to vote, and don't, that is the same as a vote for the winner - whoever that is.
Nah, only half as strong.
Candidate A and Candidate B.
Vote for A: Candidate A has 1 vote
Vote for B: Candidate B has 1 vote
Vote for neither: 0 vote for either. Midway between the two outcomes.
That being said, voting for neither doesn't make much sense for anyone in terms of outcome. If you prefer one outcome, it doesn't make much sense to only use half of the strength of your vote to support that outcome.
Not voting makes more sense if you're making the argument that the time spent voting isn't worth the return you get.
No, it's not. For the record, I'm a huge advocate of voting. I think everyone should vote for the candidate they believe in.
If you're driving in a bus with 40 people voting on where to go, with 14 wanting to drive to a buffet, 16 wanting to drive off a cliff, and 15 saying that they don't care enough to vote but they don't really want to go to the buffet because they're not hungry, yes, I am going to judge the 15 people who are content being driven off a cliff.
And before anyone judges this analogy because one option is objectively good while the other is objectively bad: Everyone is guaranteed to get food poisoning at the buffet. Now both options are objectively bad, but I'm still judging the people content with going over the cliff.
You can criticize the fact that they didn't vote, I literally just said that I think everyone should vote. But that's not the same as saying they did vote for the winner. If you're mad that the bus is driven off a cliff, then be upset with the people that did vote for it.
This is excusing that I personally think your analogy is an oversimplification.
Both instances are willful action that contributes to direct harm to yourself and others.
No, in the context of a voting system, it is not literally a vote for the other option. I don't think your friends tumbling off the cliff will really care much about the distinction that serves no purpose other than personal moral satisfaction.
I trust my friends to distinguish between the people who voted for the cliff and those who, you know, didn't vote for that.
I am going to judge the 15 people who are content being driven off a cliff.
But you'll happily sit on the bus, never questioning why you're helping to maintain a system that results in such terrible options, and then blame others when that system you help to maintain comes back to bite you in the face.
This is rhetoric from party loyalists who don't give a shit about the country. It's the Democratic version of MAGA, people who actively vote against their own best interests just to 'stick it to the other guy,' while the country crumbles and the rest of us suffer.
The Democratic Party is well past due for a purging. If they won't do it themselves, I honestly won't be mad to see them face the MAGAts they helped raise. Trump is 80 years old and has had a lifetime of cheeseburgers and spray tans, in the worst case scenario, he'll last five years and America would be better off in the long term for it.
If you really think the US would be better off in the long term if Trump gets elected, then you obviously haven't paid attention to the very long term damage he did while in office. Trump 1 got to replace 3 justices. Biden has had the chance to replace 1. With looming retirements of a couple justices, Trump 2 would get to replace another 2. That would cement a 5 to 4 ultra-conservative Supreme Court for a good 20 years. Additionally, his tax cuts for the wealthy and refusal to raise interest rates weren't exactly great for long term stability of our economy.
I agree with the D's needing to have a wholesale change of leadership, though.
Comservativism is a race to the bottom; its a naturally implosive idealogy. Yes, America will be better off in the long term (read: more than five years) once the Dinocrats are put out to pasture and the MAGAts kill each other in a power vacuum after Trump kicks the bucket. America needs a revolution - any revolution - and the Dems are married to the status quo. I think most actual leftists in America are waking up to the idea that they are a dead-end for actual change and the only possible route for things to get better is by weathering a decade of Trumpism and building new from the damage that is promised to bring.
Versus someone who would be even worse for Palestinians and Americans? No, I won't blame Biden if people let Trump in over the issue of Palestine. Because it means they were fast asleep between 2016 and 2020.
Thats what fucking matters. Do you want to fucking beat Trump or not? Whats your priority here? Running Biden or beating Trump? You have to pick one.
There is a genocide going on now not later. Joe Biden has had multiple opportunities to stop the genocide he is currently supporting and has not. This isn't a hypothetical. If Israel is allowed to continue, by April, there won't be a Palestinian people in Gaza to consider. They'll have been starved/ bombed to death, by Israel with the explicit support of Joe Biden.
Do you not fucking get it?
There's another genocide going on now in the U.S. that people like you don't seem to care about and which Trump will absolutely make far worse.
Because the genocide of queer people in the U.S. apparently is far less important and if Trump gets into office, has already planned and made clear that it will be far worse.
But who cares about queer people in America, am I right? Just let them die.
hey I see and appreciate you, I'm also trans, I literally research justice initiatives for LGBTQ+ and specifically trans* individuals in the USA
but my friend, can we please not compare what's happening to us to what is happening to Palestinians? This makes us look like ignorant assholes
Trans people might be next in line for literal genocide, but right now we're experiencing ideological violence more than physical violence
In fact, when we closely examine violence against trans people, the rates of murder and physical violence are only elevated for trans individuals who are poor and people of color. White, middle class trans people are actually less likely to experience physical violence than non-trans poor POCs. That could change depending on political winds, but...
Right now, people in Palestine are experiencing something horrific and unprecedented that eclipses trans suffering in the USA. I am right there with you, afraid of the march of fascism, afraid of what another Trump presidency might bring for our community. But I am not getting airstriked, starved, and war crimed right now. My children are not being shot in the head. I can write about these issues online and in my professional life and not get hung for it. It's just not the same.
No. It's not the same. But it is still genocide. As the link shows, it fits that definition. And the person is telling me that I shouldn't do something to stop that genocide because there's another genocide that neither Trump nor Biden is going to do anything to stop and both will make worse. It seems to me that Americans should work on stopping the genocide that is happening in our own country with our vote rather than voting for some third party in protest or sitting at home when that has never worked.
Yeah, you're objectively correct for encouraging people to vote for Biden instead of sit at home in November. Just please, please, please... I deal with offline average joes all the time. If we make one to one comparisons of our situation with that of Palestinians, most people will be disgusted and think we're incredibly off base.
We are in agreement across the board. I just want to caution you to be mindful of the comparison, is all.
You're not stopping either genocide if you elect the same guy who is currently doing nothing (and is actually actively making them worse) about either of these things. That's pure cognitive dissonance.
Fine. Who should I vote for that has a chance of winning?
It sounds like you've already decided that you want to support genocide in both the US and Palestine, so clearly you should pick Biden or Trump because they'll both deliver on that.
Maybe there's a better choice. Maybe you know that better choice. Can you tell me who that better choice with a relatively good chance of winning is so I can vote for them?
So we're just completely changing the subject?
Just seriously ask yourself if you want Trump to be president again. If the answer to this is "No", the look at the data and see how Joe Biden is doing. He's doing fucking horribly. He's losing this election and we haven't even had the convention yet. His support is very low and is dropping. If you insist on proceeding with Biden as candidate, you are insisting on a losing proposition.
If you are concerned about queer rights, you better figure out a better option than Biden, because by the numbers, he's not going to win in November.
Pointing out that you are ignoring a genocide in the U.S. that Trump and his people want to make worse is not changing the subject. It's pointing out that you're ignoring a genocide. Which you are.
But please tell me who I should vote for to stop that genocide. Give the name of the candidate that would get enough votes to beat Trump.
Because if you wanted someone other than Biden, you shouldn't have waited until after the primaries started.
But go ahead- give me a name.
Millions of Palestinians are facing starvation right now. They will be dying en-masse before the end of March if something doesn't change. Joe Biden is supporting this. He just lost There is no equivalence happening within the borders of the United States, except maybe our prison system. Yes the Republicans are setting the ground work for a genocide of queer people in this country. We have to stop them. Insisting that we support a candidate who is clearly losing the election is no way to do this. We can't afford to lose this election and insisting that Biden be the nominee is insisting we lose this election.
If we have to stop them, who should I vote for instead of Biden?
You haven’t given me a name.
People like you never give me a name.
What are you on about? Stop changing the point of the conversation.No one is personally attacking you. We're talking about what its going to take to keep Trump out of office in 2024, and we disagree about some key points. Why are you making this about you? How narcissist are you? Its creepy and weird. Stick to the points of the conversation please.
like you
And what is that? An advocate for peace and justice? Someone who wants to not have Trump in 2024, no matter what (even if that means Biden isn't the nominee)? What assumptions are you making?
I haven't changed the conversation at all and never said you are attacking me.
Yet again, who should I vote for? Why can't you tell me? All you're telling me is not Biden. Fine. So who?
Bro, scope my comment history or his this is his go to
so biden is currently presiding over and doing nothing to stop two genocides? and you want to reward that with an unconditional vote of support, so that next time democrats are in office, they'll know that people don't care?
Reward? No. I want to stop the one who will make it worse.
And if you can tell me who I should vote for to stop Trump that isn't Biden, a person that is more likely to get more electoral college votes than Biden will against Trump, please name the person.
biden's only selling point at the moment is that he isn't trump, so with 6 months of campaigning and biden's endorsement you could probably sell any democrat
me giving you a name now is almost entirely pointless given that you're just going to turn around and say that because they haven't already done that campaigning you can't imagine them being popular
Reward? No. I want to stop the one who will make it worse.
do you or do you not acknowledge that by voting biden you're sending a message to the dnc that their voter base doesn't care about genocide?
I will answer that question after I am told who I should vote for that will stop Trump from getting into office. Because I haven't been given a name yet despite asking multiple times.
You've literally asked me once, friend, and I explained why me giving you a name wouldn't make any sense.
I fully expect that in the hypothetical world where the DNC decides it doesn't want to lose this election and decides to swap out Biden with somebody else that my gut reaction will be that they're shit, but that's because they haven't done any campaigning yet.
If there's no one to vote for that has a chance of beating Trump other than Biden, I guess I'll vote for Biden.
I know for the sake of pride you aren't going to openly acknowledge this, given how pointedly you're refusing to engage with anything I'm saying, but at least admit it to yourself: voting for Biden is sending a signal that the democrats can allow as much genocide as they want so long as they can convince you the other side will be worse.
If you think that's worth the trade-off, fine, but don't pretend that that isn't the trade-off you're making.
But who cares about queer people in America, am I right? Just let them die.
Isn't that exactly what you're arguing for? The guy currently in office, who you want to re-elect, is the one presiding over both of these genocides. How the hell does re-electing him make things any better?
Putting Trump in office will make it worse.
So who should I vote for to stop that?
How exactly does genocide get worse? Are they going to start reanimating the corpses of these dead men, women, and children and then kill them a second time?
Please tell me who you feel I should vote for that has a good chance of winning.
Joe Biden has had multiple opportunities to stop the genocide he is currently supporting and has not.
So, are you claiming that if the United States stops sending some military aid to Israel, Netanyahu will be unable to continue military operations in Gaza? Because if so, you are sorely mistaken. Israel's military is perfectly self-sufficient, and if you think they particularly care about some UN resolutions, you need to talk to some Israelis.
American support in this is not a significant factor in the outcome. Joe Biden could not unilaterally stop Israeli operations in Gaza unless he declared war on Israel and deployed troops, and I can assure you that isn't going to be happening. Not to mention, China, Russia, India, Europe, and all of South America also exist. Americans do not unilaterally decide everything that happens or doesn't happen in the world. We're not that important.
And you think that, if only the US hadn't vetoed it, Russia and China would have invaded Israel to stop it?
Do you realize that you're arguing against yourself here? Claiming that "it wouldn't make a difference whether the US supported Israel or not," makes it look so much fucking worse that Biden is refusing to drop support for this genocide. This is incredibly tone deaf.
Protecting the White House from Trump is more important than anything else going on in the World.
The top of the wishlist of any reasonable and rational American should be, "Don't permit a fascist demagogue to become a petty tyrant." Biden fulfills that order handily, and if that's not enough for someone to get them to vote for him, then the blame lies with that voter.
If Biden can't beat a fascist demagogue and petty tyrant and Trump ends up winning, then I'd argue it's your fault for backing a losing candidate over someone who actually might have actually defeated Trump. The blame would fall squarely on your shoulders.
I’d argue it’s your fault for backing a losing candidate over someone who actually might have actually defeated Trump
Who, exactly, is this mythical figure that could beat Trump at this point in the game? C'mon, give us a name.
Haley.
All you care about is beating trump right?
Sanders.
Once Biden steps down all the nevertrumpers will jump on board.
The blame will fall squarely on the voters who stood idly by navel-gazing while a fascist took power.
Oh, not the party loyalists like yourself who would rather back a losing candidate than allow a winner to run in their place?
Have you ever stopped to consider how someone could find a bloated, orange maniac more appealing than the guy you're trying to shame everyone into voting for and what that says about your political views?
Which person, specifically, would be better to vote for than Biden that has a reasonable chance of winning?
Sanders would bring in the most, make him the nominee and you would keep the never trumpers, bring in some moderates, lose some moderates.
The math comes down to would the amount of moderates/independents you lose to apathy or trump, double points for the ones who would vote trump instead of sanders since the other team gains 1 and you lose 1, compared to how many moderates/independents and how many leftists you get.
I'd love to have Sanders, I voted for him last primary, and I'd vote for him again.
He's not running. You don't win with a candidate who's not running for election.
Idk what to tell you friend, that sounds like something we have 9 months to fix.
At every opportunity Biden has had he has continued to support Israel’s genocidal actions.
He says differently, and god do I feel for people like blinken and the UN lady that has to be the face of support for things like that.
Maybe it is the rest of humanity that is wrong and we should be supporting the deaths of innocent brown kids.
It is the American way after all
No, it's not. You don't sub out a candidate with someone who, nine months before the election, has no interest in running for the office. That's a pipe dream doing nothing but distracting you from the reality that it's going to be Biden vs. Trump, and despite how imperfect you feel Biden is, you're going to have to vote for him, because the alternative is fascist authoritarianism.
Come November, Sanders will be voting for Biden. I suggest you follow his lead.
Whose vote is more important to you, the people who would disagree if Biden kept supporting Israel’s genocidal actions or the people who support them?
The top of the wishlist of any reasonable and rational American should be, “Don’t permit a fascist demagogue to become a petty tyrant.” Biden fulfills that order handily, and if that’s not enough for someone to get them to vote for him, then the blame lies with that voter.
Right now, today, supporting Biden any further is handing Trump a W.
Biden has lost the election at this point. It would be the biggest election upset of ALL TIME if he came back to win it. No incumbent this far down in the polling has EVER won an election.
If you truly want to stop Trump, stop brow beating people into supporting a lost cause and work to have a conversation around how we can get a better candidate. I think Shawn Fein.
And Obama solidly lost his election against Romney if you looked at polls this far out. A strong case can be made that polls at this point are not predictive.
I think Shawn Fein.
Ignoring the fact that mine and most American's immediate reaction to this is "Who?", the fact that he has zero experience in elected office will be disqualifying to most people. He seems like a decent guy, and I'd love to see him in some sort of office some day, but this is not a serious suggestion.
Also, to quote him:
Proud to cast my vote for President @JoeBiden today, the first day of early in-person voting in the state of Michigan!
Oh god, finally gave a name. Who the hell is Shawn Fein? If I haven't already heard of them, it's a lost cause too - because they have no brand recognition. This is the dilemma and one I've been banging on about since before Obama. It's kind of insane the Democratic party seems to hope for a repeat of that once in a lifetime basically out of nowhere candidate / win. For reasons I don't get, Democrats are not building up people in advance to be candidates. So people have at least heard of them.
The problem is as far as I know there aren't any well known middle aged democrats who could run that have any national stance. Schumer is also too old, Bernie is also too old, and then there's the sexism that makes me question if Warren could run, and then there's the racism that makes Kamala and Cortez pretty unlikely to get far either.
I thought the entire four years that Democrats needed to have someone in the news and convince Biden to back them a year ago. That didn't happen. We already lost this years ago if Biden can't win it. I'm just still amazed that there's any support for Trump (well, ever, but certainly after the facts of his first term).
Point taken on Shawn Fein. He is the UAW president, and got Biden to come down to the picket line.
But overall, almost 100% agree. I don't see any current Democrats with 'enough' of the right stuff to get handed the reigns and win. Its why I'm looking outside the party. I really think if Jon Stewart were to throw his hat in, he could win. He's young enough, he doesn't have the baggage that an existing candidate has, people know him, he's a darling of the left. He's been politically active although he hasn't run (point against I supposed, but not a deal breaker. Didn't stop Trump did it?).
Biden has blown this campaign with his position on Israel. He needs to drive voters out, and he's pulling a classic Democrat move of just assuming that the support for him is there. The ship is sinking. This is a five-alarm fire moment. He has no opponents in this primary and is losing support. You don't win elections like that.
If the liberals are going to keep insisting that we support Biden even though it becomes more and more clear as time goes on that he isn't going to win, I don't know where that leaves us. I don't want to suffer through what Trump will do to this country. If Trump wins, I'd be shocked if we even have elections again. Expect every non-cis person in this country to be rounded up and executed. I don't think its hyperbole to suggest that. I think the right would do that today if they had the power.
No, I will blame them. Make your threats to Biden all you want, put all the pressure on him to stop supporting the genocide, absolutely. But come election day if you don't realize that Biden, even as is, is still a far, far better option than Trump, then yes anyone staying home over this is absolutely partially to blame.
As a non American I thank you for the chance to have more Trump, you fucking morons. 😕
As a non American I thank you for the chance to have more Trump, you fucking morons. 😕
Biden should consider campaigning then. If this election is so important, maybe we need a more effective candidate?
Biden could literally not say another word the rest of the year and still be the smarter choice than letting Trump in.
Do I wish he was 30 years younger and more active? Of course. I wish a lot of things. That doesn't change that democracy is literally on the line and I'd vote for a corpse to keep Republicans out of office.
Look at the polling. Biden isn't winning this election.
If you really want to stop Trump, you have to start using your brain and realize that by all metrics Biden is losing. This blue no matter who attitude, where its turning a blind eye to the actual campaign failure which is Joe Biden, which is happening in real time, WILL ensure us a Trump presidency.
The only poll that matters is in November. Hillary was a shoo-in in March of 2016. (And in front in March of 2008 IIRC)
No, the polling right fucking now matters.
NO candidate EVER has come back from the deficit showing.
Do you actually want to stop Trump or not?
NO candidate EVER has come back from the deficit showing.
Stop making shit up. (Or, stop getting your facts from Social media, as it's really the same thing as making shit up).
Here, I found some actual facts for you. This is December, not March, but still relevant.
Clinton at that time had a net favorability 30% higher than JOE FUCKING BIDEN has currently. Obama's net favorability?
FUCKING 50% higher than Joe Bidens CURRENT NET FAVORABLY.
You are INSISTING we crash the fucking car into a brick wall.
I see, you're using "incumbent Presidents approval rating" as "the polls". For the last few Presidential cycles, incumbents generally win reelection when their approval rating is 40% or higher, and Biden's is cruising at around 39. But the trend doesn't get "locked" until the Primaries are over and the conventions start. He is by no means the least popular incumbent, and Biden still has room to improve before the election.
Despite your assertions to the contrary, I believe Biden and Blinken are both invested in finding a way out of this mess in Gaza. We gave Israel a wide berth right after Oct. 7 , but it's been months since then and everyone's patience with Netanyahu is wearing thin. Still, if a ceasefire can be negotiated that will help Biden. That is, if the opposition is about Gaza at all. The opposition in Michigan certainly is. But if Biden can figure out a way out your TikTok feed will find other ways to undermine your support of him.
This figure is from polling data I pulled a few hours ago:
If the election were tomorrow, Biden loses.
If your primary concern is beating Trump, you need a better candidate than Biden.
But it's not tomorrow, and Hillary has direct knowledge of how much elections can change between March and November.
Biden needs to improve, no doubt about it, but the answer is not to pull the eject lever. The only way Biden is leaving this race is in a hearse.
Man you sound fucking desperate. You know we don't have to have Biden as the nominee right? We can pick some one better.
Trump was polling ~8 points higher than Joe Biden is currently and went on to lose the election. Biden was polling 30 points higher than he is currently and barely squeaked it out.
You should post actual polls, not betting odds. I didn't say he was the favorite, but he sure as shit wasn't running on a 22 point deficit.
OK. Check out the sea of blue and then explain what the fuck you are on about.
I see a lot of polls calling it for Clinton, but well within the margin of error. Interestingly and perhaps ominously, one of the biggest criticisms of Clintons 2016 run was how she practically ignored Michigan and the rest of the rust belt. She did what everyone is currently doing now and tried to browbeat voters into voting for the Democrat you know, "because its her turn".
I'm grabbing the data for this set as well and will post a figure. I'd like to see it aligned to days out from the election to the current polling.
The polling separation between Joe Biden and Donald Trump, right now, is not even close to the margin of error. Trumps going up in the polls. Biden is going down. I'll see if I can align the two based on days out from the election.
Here is Hillary versus Trump, 2016 data:
Here is the 2024 (current polling) on top of the 2016 polling. I aligned them to days till the election. Important to keep in mind here that Trump was in a 10+ way race at the current time in polling in 2016. It was not clear what-so-ever that he would be the nominee. Biden and Trump (currently) should probably both be considered to be the de-facto nominees.
If Clinton was polling in the 30's as the de-facto nominee, what do you think her chance of winning in 2016 would have been?
This figure says it all. Insisting that we support Biden without question is handing Trump the election.
Obama did vs Romney. He was consistently down during May of 2012, and then proceeded to have a slam dunk victory.
This is the figure I made last month. I'm regenerating it with more recent data and will add it below.
Edit: Here is the updated figure. Its gotten worse for Joe Biden. If you DO NOT WANT Trump as president, you NEED to find another candidate, RIGHT FUCKING NOW.
Let's see the five-way polling this race actually will be about.
The guy's losing his mind over 3 points 8 months before the election.
It's not a great position for Biden to be in, but throwing in the towel now is a terrible idea.
Are these goal posts being moved or is this an actual request?
Because if you want a different figure generated I can do so. I've got the data loaded.
Go ahead. That is the actual matchup. And yes, I realize Trump is currently ahead there. Eight months away and facing 91 indictments.
Go ahead.
Go ahead and what? Is there a different figure you want generated or not?
Yes, I already told you. The five-way matchup. You asked me if I wanted that and I said go ahead. I'm not sure what's unclear.
I heard the same rhetoric in 2020 and 2022... Besides, the campaign season hasn't even started and Biden is out-raising Trump already.
Since you raised attitude, the problem with your attitude is that you've got no alternative substantive solution. You can throw peanuts from the peanut gallery all you want, but until you offer up a better solution that is consistent with reality, then people will not take you seriously. Sorry, there is no magical Obama waiting to save us. Joe Biden is what we've got, and at least he's got incumbent advantage.
You mean like Monday when he was on Seth Meyers and showed he was actually pretty mentally sharp?
I don't love Biden. I wouldn't have voted for him if he wasn't the front runner last time, and he's clearly too old, but he at least sounded competent. And was coming with stuff off-the-cuff pretty quickly. To be honest, it surprised me.
Nothing short of complete annihilation of it's current incarnation will fix the political system in America. That being said you realistically have 2 choices. Bad, and worse. Choose wisely.
Filmmaker and Michigan native Michael Moore agreed that Biden’s stance on the ongoing slaughter in Gaza could easily cost him the state, and in turn, the entire election. In a recent interview with CNN’s Abby Phillip, Moore said “I’ve been saying this month that he’s going to cost himself the election. …If Trump has any chance, it’s the decision that [Biden’s] made to embrace slaughter, carpet bombing, babies in incubators dead because they cut off the electricity, on and on and on.”
Inb4 Michael fucking Moore gets accused of being a conservative. You know it's going to happen.
Michael Moore has been an idiot for a long time.
Was he right about Trump in 2016 or not?
We all know how devastating a second Trump term would be. It’s also important to understand the damage that Biden is doing by funding a plausible genocide
"That's a nice country you've got there. Be a shame if something happened to it..."
Dumb gotta dumb. They're willing to burn their country to the ground for something happening in another country. Under any other time, I'd be ok with it, but trump is an existential threat to everything the country stands for and will bathe in it's smouldering ashes. Reap what you fucking sow.
I mean,
If Obama's handling of Guantanamo not closing and the drone striking of Somalia and Yemen didn't stop his second term.
I can't see how Gaza's situation will affect Biden's.
Truth is, most of your population doesn't even pay attention to the details of news, unless it's something to do with Kardashian's or Taylor Swift.
There is a significant Muslim population in Michigan that is paying attention. Michigan is a swing state, if Biden loses it he probably loses the election.
Good luck with Trump, the defender of the Islamic people and totally not going to bomb them trust him Bigley
That's centrist copium really. This shit is making the news everywhere and it's turning young voters against him. There are 10 years' worth of voters today who weren't eligible 10 years ago and most of them (especially if you only count democrats) are not happy about what's going on. This is to say nothing of the Muslim voters who are destroying Biden's chances in multiple swing states.
This whole thing is so depressing. Not Gaza, which is a tragedy, but the conversation around it. People who have family members starving and dying right now are upset, and there is zero empathy for them. Just anger directed at them by people who are (or were) ostensibly on their side.
I will not be commenting further in this thread because it belongs in !politics and I'm out of antidepressants but not booze.
It's difficult. On one hand, it is a fucking atrocity, and it's hard to blame people for being upset that someone with the power to at least lessen the harm, isn't.
But on the other hand, ensuring the greater evil gets in does nothing. No Palestinians are saved by a Trump presidency - and it's very likely that MORE will die compared to a Biden administration, considering Trump's all-in attitude with Netanyahu. Not only are no Palestinians saved, but many Ukrainians, Americans, and Taiwanese will likely suffer and die in not inconsiderable numbers directly due to a Trump presidency.
As such, it's difficult to look at someone grieving and saying "Everyone's throat should be cut, not just my son's!" and react with sympathy when that has very real effects on whether or not everyone's throat gets cut.
(Breaking my word but only because you're cool)
If your family members are going to be shot on your dime, I don't blame people for checking out entirely or even pushing for collapse. They're basically powerless in our political system, and when they exercise what little influence they have to stop their families from being massacred, they're treated like shit.
And now it's time to drink and pet my kitty because I hate this fucking system so goddamn much.
And now it's time to drink and pet my kitty because I hate this fucking system so goddamn much.
Yeah. World's fucked. But maybe it will get better someday.
I will absolutely blame the voters, because it'd literally be their fault. That's how elections work.
Well, there are also Belarussian elections.
I guess at the basic level Biden must think the pro Israel vote is bigger than the gaza vote?
Statistically, your one vote is as meaningful whether you vote for a major party or a third party.
You don't vote to get your preferred candidate in. You vote to pull the one that might closer to where you want them.
Voting for Biden is voting for a genocide, whether you want it to be or not. Assuming Biden gets in, all you've done is tell the DNC that their voter base actually don't care all that much about genocide.
anyone who doesn't vote for Joe or someone like him is the same brand of selfish and stupid, and you can all eat shit
Do they think Trump would be better than Biden when it comes to Palestinians? The Trump that moved the US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem to signal that it was an Israeli city?
"I’ll put my cards on the table: I’m a permanent resident of the US which means I’m not allowed to vote."
Then you can STFU and sit down. You want to be able to vote? Get your citizenship. My daughter-in-law JUST did. This will be her first election. She's not going to do anything that supports a Trump win.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/31/us/politics/trump-travel-ban.html
Hint - She's from one of these countries.
👏
I'll blame each and every eligible person who didn't show up to vote for him, regardless of what their excuse is. This isn't the time to be playing around.
Looks like the US is going to get some tough love.
Turns out you can't just fund, supply and cast UN vetoes in support of the genocide of an entire people and still get unconditional support at the ballot box, whoda thunkit.
And yes, the consequences are going to be hideous.
I guess you should have thought of that, what with everyone telling you over and over and over.
Cabin in the Woods moment, and you brought it on yourselves.
Does this mean that the victims of the next genocide the democrats preside over can blame you for supporting the last one unconditionally?
When is the time to be 'playing around?' Your phrase gets repeated every single election meaning you're doing nothing more than reinforcing the status quo.
This is the behavior of sycophants and rivals that of the MAGA base. "Shut up, don't criticize, and mindlessly vote for my guy, or it's the end of the world as we know it!"
The primary. A general election in which a fascist like Donald Trump isn't the only other viable option.
Like it or not, we have a two party system. Either Biden's going to be the next president, or Trump is. When it comes to the general election, if you do anything besides voting for Biden, you're complicit in electing Trump.
If you back Biden and he loses, you're also directly responsible for electing Trump. Another candidate would have beaten him.
Which candidate, specifically, A) Wants to be president and is willing to run, B) Is better than Biden on the issues you mentioned, and C) Has a reasonable chance of beating Trump in the general election?
I'm dead serious, pitch me a name.
Sanders 2016. Americans still defending the system tho ¯\(ツ)/¯
Sanders isn't running this election. In fact, he's supporting Biden. He's not a reasonable option to try to dump Biden for.
But you won't blame the Biden administration for disregarding the wishes of their constituents?
Do you (or anyone who thinks not voting for Biden is a smart thing) think that Trump would do anything differently? Because those are the two choices. If you don't vote for Biden then you are either voting for Trump or helping Trump by taking away votes from Biden... unless you live in a blue or red state where your vote doesn't matter anyway.
I do blame Biden for how he is handling this situation. However, I am smart enough to understand that there is more than one situation that a president has to handle while in office. For the most part, Biden has honored the wishes of me as a constituent. If the only thing you care about in life is how the President of the US handles a conflict on the other side of the world, as opposed to the US economy, civil rights in the US, US Supreme Court justices, US circuit court judges, environmental policy in the US, etc., then that is your right as a voter. I hate what is going on over in Gaza (and the region in general), but I also care about is going on in the country I live in.
I'm so tired of this rhetoric. Let people vote for who they believe in without shaming them. Americans should not be strong armed into voting for a candidate they don't actually want.
Voting is like freedom of speech. Everyone is free to vote for whoever they want, but they aren't immune from criticism for how they vote. If someone votes for a guy who says he'll "be a dictator on day one" and encourage Russia to "do whatever the hell they want", I'm gonna shame that person for supporting such an insupportable candidate who espouses such insane ideas.
If Biden is polling to lose and Trump ends up winning, you're also supporting Trump by backing a losing candidate and handing the election over to Trump.
To be clear, I was directly responding to someone who was claiming that not voting for Biden is like voting for Trump. I hate that rhetoric and it's not true. If you want to blame someone for Trump winning, you blame the people that voted for him.
Sure, but what I'd say is I'll still say in this fricken 2 party system, you also have to justify not going for the lesser of two evils, however you define that. And if your position is "I want someone to stop Israel continuing their war on Hamas", you also have to contend with the idea that neither option is likely to do what you want. This just reads to me like throwing a fit that mommy brought you peas instead of beans with your dinner and saying you want daddy, when he's not bringing any food at all.
I don't have to justify not voting for the lesser evil when I can vote for an option that is, in my opinion of course, not evil at all. I encourage every American to vote, and vote for who you actually want to be the President, not just against who you don't want.
At first, I thought you weren't American and weren't aware of how the system works.
I'm not American, but I do know that if you live somewhere where your vote matters, you would improving Trump's odds of winning.
If your riding already has a victor predetermined, then sure, vote for whomever you want. But if you're in a swing state or anything like that, then not voting for Biden means helping Trump win.
You can hate how it works all you want, but it won't change the reality of the situation.
No, it doesn't, and loops right back around to the rhetoric that started my whole comment chain here.
A vote for Trump helps Trump win. If Trump got no votes, Trump would not win. The responsibility for electing Trump rests squarely on the shoulders of those who voted for Trump. No one else.
Yes it does...
Because this is impossible. The Republicans will always get some votes.
If only one Republican voted for Trump, and no Democrats bothered to vote, the Democrats helped Trump win by not voting.
If instead of 0 Democrats, 2 came out to vote and Biden won? Then all Republicans who didn't vote helped Biden win.
If you have the opportunity to change the outcome, but you don't take action to make the change, you're responsible for your part in the result.
Sure, but you also said not to shame people for how they vote. I responded specifically to that statement and not the others because I understand wanting to vote for a candidate you actually want in office.
Unfortunately, strategic voting has to occur in order for things to get better in the USA. Until we massively overhaul the voting system, voters need to understand that you either vote for the lesser of two evils, or are (albeit passively) contributing to the greater of two evils' ascent to power.
Even far-left progressives like Bernie Sanders or Noam Chomsky were like, "Dude, you gotta vote for the Democratic candidate or else these crazy far-right candidates are gonna push the country further to the right. At least if the Democratic candidate wins we either stay where we are, or maybe get to move a bit further left during their tenure."
It's a deeply flawed system, but in the general election, it's a simple calculus. There's nothing Biden could do to lose my vote in November because I owe it to our society (and our allies worldwide) to prevent another Trump term.
I said that as a direct response to someone saying not voting for Biden is like voting for Trump. I wasn't trying to make some general statement. I don't know how else to say that.
If you want to judge a Trump voter for voting for Trump, judge them on that merit. Don't judge someone that didn't vote for Trump if Trump wins, that's bullshit.
Okay but we're in a 2 party system. It sucks, but it is what it is. It's either Biden or Trump winning no matter how you feel on the matter.
Both of them support Israel, one with slowly(very slowly, yes) waning support and the other essentially saying he'd gladly help turn Palestine into rubble.
Domestically, Biden has been doing pretty good. The rail strike was a fiasco but besides that he's mostly been a small step forward from Obama.
Meanwhile, Trump is Trump. His first term was a complete disaster for the country, and now he's outright saying he'll be a dictator rounding up the "enemy", he's saying he won't defend our allies from Russia, he's well and truly dementia-addled now(Mercedes? oof), etc...
Voting for Trump is far worse obviously, but not voting against him still makes it more likely he wins. Just as you have the freedom to make that decision, I have the freedom to judge the shit out of you for it.
Ever consider that we only get to choose between these two parties because people like you fear mongering and demanding everyone maintain the status quo?
If it's guaranteed that Trump or Biden are winning then elections are obviously foregone conclusions, our votes don't really matter, and neither party has any reason to ever change because they're guaranteed to hold at least 50% of power at any given time. We might as well eliminate ballots and just automatically declare a winner based on party registration numbers.
If you are eligible to vote, and don't, that is the same as a vote for the winner - whoever that is.
Nah, only half as strong.
Candidate A and Candidate B.
Vote for A: Candidate A has 1 vote
Vote for B: Candidate B has 1 vote
Vote for neither: 0 vote for either. Midway between the two outcomes.
That being said, voting for neither doesn't make much sense for anyone in terms of outcome. If you prefer one outcome, it doesn't make much sense to only use half of the strength of your vote to support that outcome.
Not voting makes more sense if you're making the argument that the time spent voting isn't worth the return you get.
No, it's not. For the record, I'm a huge advocate of voting. I think everyone should vote for the candidate they believe in.
If you're driving in a bus with 40 people voting on where to go, with 14 wanting to drive to a buffet, 16 wanting to drive off a cliff, and 15 saying that they don't care enough to vote but they don't really want to go to the buffet because they're not hungry, yes, I am going to judge the 15 people who are content being driven off a cliff.
And before anyone judges this analogy because one option is objectively good while the other is objectively bad: Everyone is guaranteed to get food poisoning at the buffet. Now both options are objectively bad, but I'm still judging the people content with going over the cliff.
You can criticize the fact that they didn't vote, I literally just said that I think everyone should vote. But that's not the same as saying they did vote for the winner. If you're mad that the bus is driven off a cliff, then be upset with the people that did vote for it.
This is excusing that I personally think your analogy is an oversimplification.
Both instances are willful action that contributes to direct harm to yourself and others.
No, in the context of a voting system, it is not literally a vote for the other option. I don't think your friends tumbling off the cliff will really care much about the distinction that serves no purpose other than personal moral satisfaction.
I trust my friends to distinguish between the people who voted for the cliff and those who, you know, didn't vote for that.
But you'll happily sit on the bus, never questioning why you're helping to maintain a system that results in such terrible options, and then blame others when that system you help to maintain comes back to bite you in the face.
This is rhetoric from party loyalists who don't give a shit about the country. It's the Democratic version of MAGA, people who actively vote against their own best interests just to 'stick it to the other guy,' while the country crumbles and the rest of us suffer.
The Democratic Party is well past due for a purging. If they won't do it themselves, I honestly won't be mad to see them face the MAGAts they helped raise. Trump is 80 years old and has had a lifetime of cheeseburgers and spray tans, in the worst case scenario, he'll last five years and America would be better off in the long term for it.
If you really think the US would be better off in the long term if Trump gets elected, then you obviously haven't paid attention to the very long term damage he did while in office. Trump 1 got to replace 3 justices. Biden has had the chance to replace 1. With looming retirements of a couple justices, Trump 2 would get to replace another 2. That would cement a 5 to 4 ultra-conservative Supreme Court for a good 20 years. Additionally, his tax cuts for the wealthy and refusal to raise interest rates weren't exactly great for long term stability of our economy.
I agree with the D's needing to have a wholesale change of leadership, though.
Comservativism is a race to the bottom; its a naturally implosive idealogy. Yes, America will be better off in the long term (read: more than five years) once the Dinocrats are put out to pasture and the MAGAts kill each other in a power vacuum after Trump kicks the bucket. America needs a revolution - any revolution - and the Dems are married to the status quo. I think most actual leftists in America are waking up to the idea that they are a dead-end for actual change and the only possible route for things to get better is by weathering a decade of Trumpism and building new from the damage that is promised to bring.
Versus someone who would be even worse for Palestinians and Americans? No, I won't blame Biden if people let Trump in over the issue of Palestine. Because it means they were fast asleep between 2016 and 2020.
There is a genocide going on now not later. Joe Biden has had multiple opportunities to stop the genocide he is currently supporting and has not. This isn't a hypothetical. If Israel is allowed to continue, by April, there won't be a Palestinian people in Gaza to consider. They'll have been starved/ bombed to death, by Israel with the explicit support of Joe Biden.
Do you not fucking get it?
There's another genocide going on now in the U.S. that people like you don't seem to care about and which Trump will absolutely make far worse.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_genocide#United_States
Because the genocide of queer people in the U.S. apparently is far less important and if Trump gets into office, has already planned and made clear that it will be far worse.
But who cares about queer people in America, am I right? Just let them die.
hey I see and appreciate you, I'm also trans, I literally research justice initiatives for LGBTQ+ and specifically trans* individuals in the USA
but my friend, can we please not compare what's happening to us to what is happening to Palestinians? This makes us look like ignorant assholes
Trans people might be next in line for literal genocide, but right now we're experiencing ideological violence more than physical violence
In fact, when we closely examine violence against trans people, the rates of murder and physical violence are only elevated for trans individuals who are poor and people of color. White, middle class trans people are actually less likely to experience physical violence than non-trans poor POCs. That could change depending on political winds, but...
Right now, people in Palestine are experiencing something horrific and unprecedented that eclipses trans suffering in the USA. I am right there with you, afraid of the march of fascism, afraid of what another Trump presidency might bring for our community. But I am not getting airstriked, starved, and war crimed right now. My children are not being shot in the head. I can write about these issues online and in my professional life and not get hung for it. It's just not the same.
No. It's not the same. But it is still genocide. As the link shows, it fits that definition. And the person is telling me that I shouldn't do something to stop that genocide because there's another genocide that neither Trump nor Biden is going to do anything to stop and both will make worse. It seems to me that Americans should work on stopping the genocide that is happening in our own country with our vote rather than voting for some third party in protest or sitting at home when that has never worked.
Yeah, you're objectively correct for encouraging people to vote for Biden instead of sit at home in November. Just please, please, please... I deal with offline average joes all the time. If we make one to one comparisons of our situation with that of Palestinians, most people will be disgusted and think we're incredibly off base.
We are in agreement across the board. I just want to caution you to be mindful of the comparison, is all.
You're not stopping either genocide if you elect the same guy who is currently doing nothing (and is actually actively making them worse) about either of these things. That's pure cognitive dissonance.
Fine. Who should I vote for that has a chance of winning?
It sounds like you've already decided that you want to support genocide in both the US and Palestine, so clearly you should pick Biden or Trump because they'll both deliver on that.
Maybe there's a better choice. Maybe you know that better choice. Can you tell me who that better choice with a relatively good chance of winning is so I can vote for them?
So we're just completely changing the subject?
Just seriously ask yourself if you want Trump to be president again. If the answer to this is "No", the look at the data and see how Joe Biden is doing. He's doing fucking horribly. He's losing this election and we haven't even had the convention yet. His support is very low and is dropping. If you insist on proceeding with Biden as candidate, you are insisting on a losing proposition.
If you are concerned about queer rights, you better figure out a better option than Biden, because by the numbers, he's not going to win in November.
Pointing out that you are ignoring a genocide in the U.S. that Trump and his people want to make worse is not changing the subject. It's pointing out that you're ignoring a genocide. Which you are.
But please tell me who I should vote for to stop that genocide. Give the name of the candidate that would get enough votes to beat Trump.
Because if you wanted someone other than Biden, you shouldn't have waited until after the primaries started.
But go ahead- give me a name.
Millions of Palestinians are facing starvation right now. They will be dying en-masse before the end of March if something doesn't change. Joe Biden is supporting this. He just lost There is no equivalence happening within the borders of the United States, except maybe our prison system. Yes the Republicans are setting the ground work for a genocide of queer people in this country. We have to stop them. Insisting that we support a candidate who is clearly losing the election is no way to do this. We can't afford to lose this election and insisting that Biden be the nominee is insisting we lose this election.
Uncommitted just won two delegates in Michigan. Biden will not win this election unless he massively shifts his position on Gaza.
You haven't given me a name.
People like you never give me a name.
If we have to stop them, who should I vote for instead of Biden?
What are you on about? Stop changing the point of the conversation.No one is personally attacking you. We're talking about what its going to take to keep Trump out of office in 2024, and we disagree about some key points. Why are you making this about you? How narcissist are you? Its creepy and weird. Stick to the points of the conversation please.
And what is that? An advocate for peace and justice? Someone who wants to not have Trump in 2024, no matter what (even if that means Biden isn't the nominee)? What assumptions are you making?
I haven't changed the conversation at all and never said you are attacking me.
Yet again, who should I vote for? Why can't you tell me? All you're telling me is not Biden. Fine. So who?
Bro, scope my comment history or his this is his go to
so biden is currently presiding over and doing nothing to stop two genocides? and you want to reward that with an unconditional vote of support, so that next time democrats are in office, they'll know that people don't care?
Reward? No. I want to stop the one who will make it worse.
And if you can tell me who I should vote for to stop Trump that isn't Biden, a person that is more likely to get more electoral college votes than Biden will against Trump, please name the person.
biden's only selling point at the moment is that he isn't trump, so with 6 months of campaigning and biden's endorsement you could probably sell any democrat
me giving you a name now is almost entirely pointless given that you're just going to turn around and say that because they haven't already done that campaigning you can't imagine them being popular
do you or do you not acknowledge that by voting biden you're sending a message to the dnc that their voter base doesn't care about genocide?
I will answer that question after I am told who I should vote for that will stop Trump from getting into office. Because I haven't been given a name yet despite asking multiple times.
You've literally asked me once, friend, and I explained why me giving you a name wouldn't make any sense.
I fully expect that in the hypothetical world where the DNC decides it doesn't want to lose this election and decides to swap out Biden with somebody else that my gut reaction will be that they're shit, but that's because they haven't done any campaigning yet.
If there's no one to vote for that has a chance of beating Trump other than Biden, I guess I'll vote for Biden.
I know for the sake of pride you aren't going to openly acknowledge this, given how pointedly you're refusing to engage with anything I'm saying, but at least admit it to yourself: voting for Biden is sending a signal that the democrats can allow as much genocide as they want so long as they can convince you the other side will be worse.
If you think that's worth the trade-off, fine, but don't pretend that that isn't the trade-off you're making.
Isn't that exactly what you're arguing for? The guy currently in office, who you want to re-elect, is the one presiding over both of these genocides. How the hell does re-electing him make things any better?
Putting Trump in office will make it worse.
So who should I vote for to stop that?
How exactly does genocide get worse? Are they going to start reanimating the corpses of these dead men, women, and children and then kill them a second time?
Please tell me who you feel I should vote for that has a good chance of winning.
So, are you claiming that if the United States stops sending some military aid to Israel, Netanyahu will be unable to continue military operations in Gaza? Because if so, you are sorely mistaken. Israel's military is perfectly self-sufficient, and if you think they particularly care about some UN resolutions, you need to talk to some Israelis.
American support in this is not a significant factor in the outcome. Joe Biden could not unilaterally stop Israeli operations in Gaza unless he declared war on Israel and deployed troops, and I can assure you that isn't going to be happening. Not to mention, China, Russia, India, Europe, and all of South America also exist. Americans do not unilaterally decide everything that happens or doesn't happen in the world. We're not that important.
The United States was the sole veto of a ceasefire 20 days ago.
If it wasn't for US support of Israel, Israel would be north Egypt.
Considering how Egypt treats Palestinians, one would think that would be something you wouldn't want.
It's okay to oppress Palestinians as long as you don't kill them? Apartheid is a good thing?
https://www.newarab.com/features/no-recognition-no-rights-palestinians-egypt
And you think that, if only the US hadn't vetoed it, Russia and China would have invaded Israel to stop it?
Do you realize that you're arguing against yourself here? Claiming that "it wouldn't make a difference whether the US supported Israel or not," makes it look so much fucking worse that Biden is refusing to drop support for this genocide. This is incredibly tone deaf.
Protecting the White House from Trump is more important than anything else going on in the World.
The top of the wishlist of any reasonable and rational American should be, "Don't permit a fascist demagogue to become a petty tyrant." Biden fulfills that order handily, and if that's not enough for someone to get them to vote for him, then the blame lies with that voter.
If Biden can't beat a fascist demagogue and petty tyrant and Trump ends up winning, then I'd argue it's your fault for backing a losing candidate over someone who actually might have actually defeated Trump. The blame would fall squarely on your shoulders.
Who, exactly, is this mythical figure that could beat Trump at this point in the game? C'mon, give us a name.
Haley.
All you care about is beating trump right?
Sanders.
Once Biden steps down all the nevertrumpers will jump on board.
The blame will fall squarely on the voters who stood idly by navel-gazing while a fascist took power.
Oh, not the party loyalists like yourself who would rather back a losing candidate than allow a winner to run in their place?
Have you ever stopped to consider how someone could find a bloated, orange maniac more appealing than the guy you're trying to shame everyone into voting for and what that says about your political views?
Which person, specifically, would be better to vote for than Biden that has a reasonable chance of winning?
Sanders would bring in the most, make him the nominee and you would keep the never trumpers, bring in some moderates, lose some moderates.
The math comes down to would the amount of moderates/independents you lose to apathy or trump, double points for the ones who would vote trump instead of sanders since the other team gains 1 and you lose 1, compared to how many moderates/independents and how many leftists you get.
I'd love to have Sanders, I voted for him last primary, and I'd vote for him again.
He's not running. You don't win with a candidate who's not running for election.
Idk what to tell you friend, that sounds like something we have 9 months to fix.
At every opportunity Biden has had he has continued to support Israel’s genocidal actions.
He says differently, and god do I feel for people like blinken and the UN lady that has to be the face of support for things like that.
Maybe it is the rest of humanity that is wrong and we should be supporting the deaths of innocent brown kids.
It is the American way after all
No, it's not. You don't sub out a candidate with someone who, nine months before the election, has no interest in running for the office. That's a pipe dream doing nothing but distracting you from the reality that it's going to be Biden vs. Trump, and despite how imperfect you feel Biden is, you're going to have to vote for him, because the alternative is fascist authoritarianism.
Come November, Sanders will be voting for Biden. I suggest you follow his lead.
Whose vote is more important to you, the people who would disagree if Biden kept supporting Israel’s genocidal actions or the people who support them?
You only get to pick one group.
Right now, today, supporting Biden any further is handing Trump a W.
Biden has lost the election at this point. It would be the biggest election upset of ALL TIME if he came back to win it. No incumbent this far down in the polling has EVER won an election.
If you truly want to stop Trump, stop brow beating people into supporting a lost cause and work to have a conversation around how we can get a better candidate. I think Shawn Fein.
And Obama solidly lost his election against Romney if you looked at polls this far out. A strong case can be made that polls at this point are not predictive.
Ignoring the fact that mine and most American's immediate reaction to this is "Who?", the fact that he has zero experience in elected office will be disqualifying to most people. He seems like a decent guy, and I'd love to see him in some sort of office some day, but this is not a serious suggestion.
Also, to quote him:
https://twitter.com/ShawnFainUAW/status/1758917912318902276
Oh god, finally gave a name. Who the hell is Shawn Fein? If I haven't already heard of them, it's a lost cause too - because they have no brand recognition. This is the dilemma and one I've been banging on about since before Obama. It's kind of insane the Democratic party seems to hope for a repeat of that once in a lifetime basically out of nowhere candidate / win. For reasons I don't get, Democrats are not building up people in advance to be candidates. So people have at least heard of them.
The problem is as far as I know there aren't any well known middle aged democrats who could run that have any national stance. Schumer is also too old, Bernie is also too old, and then there's the sexism that makes me question if Warren could run, and then there's the racism that makes Kamala and Cortez pretty unlikely to get far either.
I thought the entire four years that Democrats needed to have someone in the news and convince Biden to back them a year ago. That didn't happen. We already lost this years ago if Biden can't win it. I'm just still amazed that there's any support for Trump (well, ever, but certainly after the facts of his first term).
Point taken on Shawn Fein. He is the UAW president, and got Biden to come down to the picket line.
But overall, almost 100% agree. I don't see any current Democrats with 'enough' of the right stuff to get handed the reigns and win. Its why I'm looking outside the party. I really think if Jon Stewart were to throw his hat in, he could win. He's young enough, he doesn't have the baggage that an existing candidate has, people know him, he's a darling of the left. He's been politically active although he hasn't run (point against I supposed, but not a deal breaker. Didn't stop Trump did it?).
Biden has blown this campaign with his position on Israel. He needs to drive voters out, and he's pulling a classic Democrat move of just assuming that the support for him is there. The ship is sinking. This is a five-alarm fire moment. He has no opponents in this primary and is losing support. You don't win elections like that.
If the liberals are going to keep insisting that we support Biden even though it becomes more and more clear as time goes on that he isn't going to win, I don't know where that leaves us. I don't want to suffer through what Trump will do to this country. If Trump wins, I'd be shocked if we even have elections again. Expect every non-cis person in this country to be rounded up and executed. I don't think its hyperbole to suggest that. I think the right would do that today if they had the power.
Or the Democratic establishment rigging a primary in 2020, and then forgoing one in 2024, to have one of the least democratic races of all time?
If this was an election in Turkey, the US would be imposing sanctions.
No, I will blame them. Make your threats to Biden all you want, put all the pressure on him to stop supporting the genocide, absolutely. But come election day if you don't realize that Biden, even as is, is still a far, far better option than Trump, then yes anyone staying home over this is absolutely partially to blame.
As a non American I thank you for the chance to have more Trump, you fucking morons. 😕
Biden should consider campaigning then. If this election is so important, maybe we need a more effective candidate?
Biden could literally not say another word the rest of the year and still be the smarter choice than letting Trump in.
Do I wish he was 30 years younger and more active? Of course. I wish a lot of things. That doesn't change that democracy is literally on the line and I'd vote for a corpse to keep Republicans out of office.
Look at the polling. Biden isn't winning this election.
If you really want to stop Trump, you have to start using your brain and realize that by all metrics Biden is losing. This blue no matter who attitude, where its turning a blind eye to the actual campaign failure which is Joe Biden, which is happening in real time, WILL ensure us a Trump presidency.
The only poll that matters is in November. Hillary was a shoo-in in March of 2016. (And in front in March of 2008 IIRC)
No, the polling right fucking now matters.
NO candidate EVER has come back from the deficit showing.
Do you actually want to stop Trump or not?
Stop making shit up. (Or, stop getting your facts from Social media, as it's really the same thing as making shit up).
Here, I found some actual facts for you. This is December, not March, but still relevant.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/103351/clinton-maintains-large-lead-over-obama-nationally.aspx
Obama wasn't running on a 39% approval rating you dummy.
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/biden-approval-rating/
Thats what fucking matters. Do you want to fucking beat Trump or not? Whats your priority here? Running Biden or beating Trump? You have to pick one.
Edit: Oh you want Gallup? We can do Gallup
https://news.gallup.com/poll/103495/election-summary.aspx
Clinton at that time had a net favorability 30% higher than JOE FUCKING BIDEN has currently. Obama's net favorability?
FUCKING 50% higher than Joe Bidens CURRENT NET FAVORABLY.
You are INSISTING we crash the fucking car into a brick wall.
I see, you're using "incumbent Presidents approval rating" as "the polls". For the last few Presidential cycles, incumbents generally win reelection when their approval rating is 40% or higher, and Biden's is cruising at around 39. But the trend doesn't get "locked" until the Primaries are over and the conventions start. He is by no means the least popular incumbent, and Biden still has room to improve before the election.
Despite your assertions to the contrary, I believe Biden and Blinken are both invested in finding a way out of this mess in Gaza. We gave Israel a wide berth right after Oct. 7 , but it's been months since then and everyone's patience with Netanyahu is wearing thin. Still, if a ceasefire can be negotiated that will help Biden. That is, if the opposition is about Gaza at all. The opposition in Michigan certainly is. But if Biden can figure out a way out your TikTok feed will find other ways to undermine your support of him.
This figure is from polling data I pulled a few hours ago:
If the election were tomorrow, Biden loses.
If your primary concern is beating Trump, you need a better candidate than Biden.
But it's not tomorrow, and Hillary has direct knowledge of how much elections can change between March and November.
Biden needs to improve, no doubt about it, but the answer is not to pull the eject lever. The only way Biden is leaving this race is in a hearse.
Man you sound fucking desperate. You know we don't have to have Biden as the nominee right? We can pick some one better.
Trump did.
Again, what the ACTUAL fuck are you talking about? Trump was NEVER net negative in polling.
Trumps 2015 polling.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/datablog/2015/dec/09/donald-trump-polls-past-elections-republican-nomination
and guess what? When Trump slipped in the polling in 2020, he went on to lose the election.
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/2020/national/
Trump was polling ~8 points higher than Joe Biden is currently and went on to lose the election. Biden was polling 30 points higher than he is currently and barely squeaked it out.
Trump was never even close to being favourite in 2016.
I know hindsight is a wonderful thing but srsly.
You should post actual polls, not betting odds. I didn't say he was the favorite, but he sure as shit wasn't running on a 22 point deficit.
OK. Check out the sea of blue and then explain what the fuck you are on about.
I see a lot of polls calling it for Clinton, but well within the margin of error. Interestingly and perhaps ominously, one of the biggest criticisms of Clintons 2016 run was how she practically ignored Michigan and the rest of the rust belt. She did what everyone is currently doing now and tried to browbeat voters into voting for the Democrat you know, "because its her turn".
I'm grabbing the data for this set as well and will post a figure. I'd like to see it aligned to days out from the election to the current polling.
The polling separation between Joe Biden and Donald Trump, right now, is not even close to the margin of error. Trumps going up in the polls. Biden is going down. I'll see if I can align the two based on days out from the election.
Here is Hillary versus Trump, 2016 data:
Here is the 2024 (current polling) on top of the 2016 polling. I aligned them to days till the election. Important to keep in mind here that Trump was in a 10+ way race at the current time in polling in 2016. It was not clear what-so-ever that he would be the nominee. Biden and Trump (currently) should probably both be considered to be the de-facto nominees.
If Clinton was polling in the 30's as the de-facto nominee, what do you think her chance of winning in 2016 would have been?
This figure says it all. Insisting that we support Biden without question is handing Trump the election.
Obama did vs Romney. He was consistently down during May of 2012, and then proceeded to have a slam dunk victory.
Almost every poll I've seen shows it being very competitive.
What in the chicken fried fuck are you talking about?
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/
This is the figure I made last month. I'm regenerating it with more recent data and will add it below.
Edit: Here is the updated figure. Its gotten worse for Joe Biden. If you DO NOT WANT Trump as president, you NEED to find another candidate, RIGHT FUCKING NOW.
Let's see the five-way polling this race actually will be about.
The guy's losing his mind over 3 points 8 months before the election.
It's not a great position for Biden to be in, but throwing in the towel now is a terrible idea.
Are these goal posts being moved or is this an actual request?
Because if you want a different figure generated I can do so. I've got the data loaded.
Go ahead. That is the actual matchup. And yes, I realize Trump is currently ahead there. Eight months away and facing 91 indictments.
Go ahead and what? Is there a different figure you want generated or not?
Yes, I already told you. The five-way matchup. You asked me if I wanted that and I said go ahead. I'm not sure what's unclear.
What five way matchup do you want to see?
I heard the same rhetoric in 2020 and 2022... Besides, the campaign season hasn't even started and Biden is out-raising Trump already.
Since you raised attitude, the problem with your attitude is that you've got no alternative substantive solution. You can throw peanuts from the peanut gallery all you want, but until you offer up a better solution that is consistent with reality, then people will not take you seriously. Sorry, there is no magical Obama waiting to save us. Joe Biden is what we've got, and at least he's got incumbent advantage.
You mean like Monday when he was on Seth Meyers and showed he was actually pretty mentally sharp?
I don't love Biden. I wouldn't have voted for him if he wasn't the front runner last time, and he's clearly too old, but he at least sounded competent. And was coming with stuff off-the-cuff pretty quickly. To be honest, it surprised me.
Nothing short of complete annihilation of it's current incarnation will fix the political system in America. That being said you realistically have 2 choices. Bad, and worse. Choose wisely.
https://www.counterpunch.org/2024/02/28/uncommitted-vote-in-michigan-highlights-bidens-extremely-precarious-candidacy/
Inb4 Michael fucking Moore gets accused of being a conservative. You know it's going to happen.
Michael Moore has been an idiot for a long time.
Was he right about Trump in 2016 or not?
"That's a nice country you've got there. Be a shame if something happened to it..."
Dumb gotta dumb. They're willing to burn their country to the ground for something happening in another country. Under any other time, I'd be ok with it, but trump is an existential threat to everything the country stands for and will bathe in it's smouldering ashes. Reap what you fucking sow.
I mean,
If Obama's handling of Guantanamo not closing and the drone striking of Somalia and Yemen didn't stop his second term.
I can't see how Gaza's situation will affect Biden's.
Truth is, most of your population doesn't even pay attention to the details of news, unless it's something to do with Kardashian's or Taylor Swift.
There is a significant Muslim population in Michigan that is paying attention. Michigan is a swing state, if Biden loses it he probably loses the election.
Good luck with Trump, the defender of the Islamic people and totally not going to bomb them trust him Bigley
That's centrist copium really. This shit is making the news everywhere and it's turning young voters against him. There are 10 years' worth of voters today who weren't eligible 10 years ago and most of them (especially if you only count democrats) are not happy about what's going on. This is to say nothing of the Muslim voters who are destroying Biden's chances in multiple swing states.
This whole thing is so depressing. Not Gaza, which is a tragedy, but the conversation around it. People who have family members starving and dying right now are upset, and there is zero empathy for them. Just anger directed at them by people who are (or were) ostensibly on their side.
I will not be commenting further in this thread because it belongs in !politics and I'm out of antidepressants but not booze.
It's difficult. On one hand, it is a fucking atrocity, and it's hard to blame people for being upset that someone with the power to at least lessen the harm, isn't.
But on the other hand, ensuring the greater evil gets in does nothing. No Palestinians are saved by a Trump presidency - and it's very likely that MORE will die compared to a Biden administration, considering Trump's all-in attitude with Netanyahu. Not only are no Palestinians saved, but many Ukrainians, Americans, and Taiwanese will likely suffer and die in not inconsiderable numbers directly due to a Trump presidency.
As such, it's difficult to look at someone grieving and saying "Everyone's throat should be cut, not just my son's!" and react with sympathy when that has very real effects on whether or not everyone's throat gets cut.
(Breaking my word but only because you're cool)
If your family members are going to be shot on your dime, I don't blame people for checking out entirely or even pushing for collapse. They're basically powerless in our political system, and when they exercise what little influence they have to stop their families from being massacred, they're treated like shit.
And now it's time to drink and pet my kitty because I hate this fucking system so goddamn much.
Yeah. World's fucked. But maybe it will get better someday.
I will absolutely blame the voters, because it'd literally be their fault. That's how elections work.
Well, there are also Belarussian elections.
I guess at the basic level Biden must think the pro Israel vote is bigger than the gaza vote?
Statistically, your one vote is as meaningful whether you vote for a major party or a third party.
You don't vote to get your preferred candidate in. You vote to pull the one that might closer to where you want them.
Voting for Biden is voting for a genocide, whether you want it to be or not. Assuming Biden gets in, all you've done is tell the DNC that their voter base actually don't care all that much about genocide.
anyone who doesn't vote for Joe or someone like him is the same brand of selfish and stupid, and you can all eat shit