Guns, Republicans and "manliness": We all suffer from the right's mental health crisis
salon.com
Republican men seem massively troubled about their masculinity — and that's literally causing death and suffering
Republican men seem massively troubled about their masculinity — and that's literally causing death and suffering
Amen
One thing I've learned is that if you have to announce something about yourself, and announce it loudly and repeatedly, it's very much not true.
I've been told drinking coffee with cream or sugar isn't manly which I find funny, like who cares? We all have taste buds dude. IMO a "real" man isn't concerned about what others think, he is comfortable being himself.
Know what's manly? Doing whatever the fuck you want.
I'd like to amend that with "whatever the fuck you want, so long as you're not hurting anyone," because plenty of these dudes live by doing whatever they want, but they don't give two shits about how it affects everyone else.
Oh of course.
I think what you're saying is more about being HUmanly. Once you try to assert what manliness is and isnt it becomes clear that gender is a social construct and that people should just do what they feel is right regardless of what abstract groups they identify with
Pretty much I think the only person who's opinion you should care about is your significant other you're going for. Literally who cares about anyone else's opinions lol, they aren't a part of your life.
I drink black coffee because I have a problem. Not because I’m trying to get +1 to my role in society
Imagine being so sensitive a little bit of lightness in your coffee is enough of a devaluation to your manhood to make it a thing 😫
God this is like the whole "cocktails are girly, real men drink beers". I don't care, give me a Sex on the Beach or a rum and coke. Or a good beer. Life is way too short to drink something called bitter.
"It's literally called bitter!"
I fill a glass of International Delight Caramel Macchiato and add dark roast coffee as needed to thin it out. 1 to 1 1/2 ounces of coffee is the sweet spot.
I'm not saying it's unmanly or anything, but sweet jebus that's a lot of sugar. It's like 5grams per tablespoon. That's like a third.
Nothing manlier then diabetes.
Not for manlyness reasons, but I would recommend not using creamer. The sugar content is so freaking high. Just add cream (milk or milk alternative) and sugar to taste. It'll be healthier. Ideally though, if you don't like coffee, find another way to get your caffeine fix. Get some caffeine pills or some powder that you can add to juice in the morning, which would be healthier to consume (though also high in sugar, and be careful what kind of juice, some are largely HFCS).
A guy who used to cut my hair was rumored to be a hitman for the mafia. Nice guy. Really mild mannered. Last person who you would ever suspect of killing people.
I actually believe the rumor because an actual hitman will make sure that he's the last person that you would ever suspect.
I'm not sure about that. You may just be in an oppressive environment, like with trans people and their pronouns.
Hypermasculinity’s “oppressors” include flowers, rainbows, other people choosing to wear dresses, a functioning government, and welfare.
Trans folks oppressors are the hypermasculine.
I'm not saying any specific group of people are always oppressed, just that if they are your previous statement is incorrect.
I understand your point. It’s just good to highlight the things that make these groups oppressed. For the hypermasculine it’s anything that hurts their little feelings, and for trans people it is actual real persecution. And only one of these groups goes around screaming about the victim complex these days 🙄
Why should diminishing others feelings be the go to resource? Are you now justifying their behaviours?
If you're pointing out imperfections in the argument, then you're automatically a radical example of the other side. /S
(Alpha Male)
Since Alpha and Omega = Beginning and End, I always think an alpha male is a beginner at the art of being a male human and we should help them to become better at it.
Full release men with ongoing development are the best.
I do think self proclaimed "alpha males" need to be bullied about being still in development like some toddler. Or early Access game.
And the projections. The constant insults are ones they practice in the mirror because that's the person it applies to the most
Seems to be a big deal when you start talking guns and mental health, but with all the fixations on "mass shootings", they lose this little stat:
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/26/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/
"In 2021, the most recent year for which complete data is available, 48,830 people died from gun-related injuries in the U.S., according to the CDC. That figure includes gun murders and gun suicides, along with three less common types of gun-related deaths tracked by the CDC: those that were accidental, those that involved law enforcement and those whose circumstances could not be determined."
54% of those deaths were suicides. 26,368.
(43% murder, 3% "other", accidents, etc.)
Also in 2021, 38,358 men committed suicide compared to 9,825 women.
https://www.cdc.gov/suicide/suicide-data-statistics.html
3.9:1, if almost 4x more women than men were dying for any reason, it would be a national crisis. "Something would have to be done!"
Mental health for men? Silence.
I hear what you are saying but I wouldn’t even say that line about if it were women it’d be a national crisis. Time has shown again and again that society will gladly throw away a group of people without needing to devalue your words with a statement like that.
Anyway there’s a lot of things to discuss around this.
We can dive into the societal role of men with being encouraged to bottle up because “grown men don’t cry” and toxic masculinity.
We can talk about rates of gun ownership between genders that is a big factor in suicide risk.
We can unpack the issue with people not having the money for mental health resources. Which can be solved through general wage increases or through the state.
The point is to say that instead of using a crisis to step another group of people we should be approaching these things from a point of intersectionality.
Edit: Just to be on topic I am completely for restrictions on guns as a easier means to dealing with shootings.
The crazy people shouting “dont take my guns” while also touting the line of “it’s a mental health isssue” without being open to addressing that problem gets me so worked up.
There are people who advocate for "men's rights" things, but they're mostly conservatives, and they leave out the horrifying statistics about gun ownership among men because they're also in the pocket of the gun lobby.
It's a taboo subject even amongst family members of those affected to talk about the role of firearms in suicide.
The reality is that gun ownership can turn a bad, lonely night into a person's last one by pure virtue of the fact that it's so readily available, and so often deadly.
If your bad, lonely night is that bad and lonely, you probably were unstable to begin with.
I wonder how many of those gun suicides were actually impulsive, and how many were premeditated.
You don't have to wonder, this has been studied: Gun owners and their families are up to 8 times much more likely to kill themselves than are non-gun-owners.
That doesn't include attempts though. I think we agree that guns are most effective, but I'd like to see if gun owners are more predisposed to attempt than non gunners
People aren't silent about men successfully committing suicide at a higher rate to women. You hear about it all the time. However, it isn't an issue about men being overlooked, like you imply. Women attempt suicide at a higher rate. Why didn't you discuss that? Is it being ignored?
The fact of the matter is suicide by firearm is the worst offender. Attempted suicide needs to be prevented for everyone equally, but firearm ownership should be more restricted, and there should also be tools out there to get your firearms away from you temporarily if you're feeling suicidal or depressed. Men are more likely to own firearms, which is the issue that needs addressing to fix the disparity, not men being ignored.
Then any old asshole could just lie and say their neighbor or family member or spouse is suicidal, and disarm them. Abusers absolutely will exploit that to subjugate their victims.
And it's not really moral to say those men shouldn't be allowed to kill themselves if they want anyway. Do people have self-ownership or not? Yes or no?
Others could be injured in a firearm suicide, and someone still has to clean up the mess. Self-euthanasia is it's own topic, but I think most could agree that the solution to assisted suicide isn't allowing unstable people to own firearms.
Any other solution would require getting permission from the state to die in some way or another, meaning you effectively don't have a right to die on your terms.
I disagree, ropes are easy to find or make, and you only need a couple pounds of force to asphyxiate; people hang themselves from doorknobs and shit, it's super reliable if you do it right.
Allowing unstable people to own firearms is a danger to others, and would only increase impulsive suicides and messy survivors.
It comes down whether you find that having a gun is a fundamental right or something. I just don't think it is. Yes, it's a perfectly acceptable cost for a random acquaintance to make a fake complaint and get my gun taken. It would be only a mild inconvenience to have my gun taken away even permanently. I do like going to the range and shooting, it's a fun sport for sure, but it's not my identity.
It's not just a fundamental right but the basis by which rights even can exist. Without access to violence, you cannot say no, and you cannot stop other people from doing whatever they want to you, meaning you are without rights without access to weaponry, namely guns.
Violence does not require firearms, nor would our pea shooters do anything to an Abrams or Bradley, or anything else slightly up armored. Unless you think this "fundamental right" includes anti-tank and anti-air weaponry, then the argument is moot. Homemade explosives will be much better for the fight than your "operator firearm" with no tactics training. Then, during the fight, there will be plenty of guns to be looted from those fighting you. Revolutions don't require armed citizens. They never have. They require smart and inventive citizens who use gorilla tactics.
Idk what world you live in, but i say no all the time to people and i stop them from doing whatever they want to me all the time without resorting to violence, havent resorted to violence at all since i was teenager. If the cops want to arrest me, a gun won't stop them either.
Yes we have self ownership but i would also want my family and friends to stop me if i got irrational for a moment and tried to burn down my house. I do believe we should have a right to euthanasia but if im not terminally ill i absolutely want my family to stop my from committing suicide in a moment of desperation.
That's your choice, sure, but not everyone's, and forcing people to live is very, very much worse than death. I've witnessed it happen for myself. All suicide prevention is is denying someone else their autonomy, self-ownership, and rights so you can make yourself feel better. Even in crisis, people do not lose their rights.
Yes euthanasia is very logical, but allowing people to kill themselves in a moment of desperation is not. Sure, if there's an argument that perpetual depression is a good reason for euthanasia, i buy that.
But letting someone kill themselves because they got really drunk and really sad one night, for example is not "respecting self autonomy."
Real question here. I don't know how the number of attempts is calculated. If a single person attempts unsuccessfully 3 times, then is that recorded as 3 separate attempts? Or is this recording the number of unique people who have attempted suicide any number of times?
If it's the former then it may be an indicator that women prefer methods of suicide that are less likely to succeed, but it is much harder to tell how many individual women actually attempt suicide compared to men.
Also, if a person is suffering enough that they're seriously contemplating suicide, is taking that option away from them really the right thing to do? There's also the issue of any such system being abused. It's easy to imagine law enforcement using this as a way to disarm groups and individuals for political reasons.
For the first part, I'm not sure how it's counted.
For the last, I think we need legalized assisted suicide. I don't think suicide should be taken on a whim, but I do think it should be legal for people suffering, and they should have access to painless methods. They should first be checked to see if there's anything we can do to help them though. (All of this should be paid for through taxes, not by the person suffering. Elon Musk has more than enough money to cover this for everyone.)
People are already saying something has to be done because it is a national crisis. Toxic gun culture prevents any serious actions
Comprehensive mental health care for all is not being blocked by gun culture, it's being blocked by the typical Republican calls of "SOCIALISM!!"
The right has been pretty open about what kind of America they want to live in and what they're willing to do to get there. We should all believe them and take them seriously, because they are fucking serious.
Fascist militias are popping up left and right, and the only gun control measures that pass end up restricting the rights of citizens in blue states while red states continue expanding their own. Unless you can magically disarm the entire nation simultaneously that cat is out of the bag.
I'm optimistic about the future and hold no deluded fantasies of armed conflict, but there may come a time where you'll wish you had access to normal capacity magazines and non-nerfed rifles. Jon Stewart is not going to come rescue you when they have you on your knees in front of a ditch.
Disarming the working class under the current hyper-capitalist regime doesn't really work in our favor either, and in most instances gun control is proven to be a political loser that equals to nothing more than a waste of time/effort and only serves to cripple a campaign.
Solid.
You were doing so well until you tried the "People care so much more about women's health! Pity me!" line.
Strange how Viagra is required to be covered by all insurance but birth control isn't. Whose priorities are privileged there?
It's not about pitying me, it's about pitying the state of men in general, where, if the genders were reversed, it would be considered a national crisis.
For example:
https://universitybusiness.com/men-are-falling-behind-in-higher-ed-and-it-may-not-be-letting-up/
Key stats:
"Women became the majority demographic to attend college decades ago, and today, they make up almost 60% of U.S. college undergraduates."
(between 2017 and 2022) "male enrollment at 4-year public institutions has dropped nearly 6% more than women, according to the National Student Clearinghouse Research Center. Among all student demographics in this sector, white men experienced the sharpest decline in enrollment, falling nearly 20%."
"The rate at which men are graduating from 4-year institutions is 6% less than that of women, according to the National Center for Education Statistics."
"The Class of 2023 reported that while 68% of young men want to go to college, only 57% expect to actually attend. On the other hand, 83% of young women want to go to college, and 77% expect to go."
Or...
https://www.mibluesperspectives.com/stories/health-and-wellness/male-mortality-why-men-die-earlier-than-women
"In 2021, the average life expectancy was 73.2 years for men and 79.1 years for women."
None of this is incorrect.
But I have been hearing about this plenty. For example, in the article we are discussing.
Mental health is not considered enough in general. What makes you think it is worth for men?
It's so irritating that left-of-center publications always go all-in on anti-gun sentiment, while believing that a police state is going to save people. News flash: it won't. Cops don't care about you and have no responsibility to do anything to help you, or to prevent violence against you. Cops are often the ones involved in protecting the people on the right that use violence to suppress people on the left.
For fucks sake, we literally saw a full year of violence by police against peaceful BLM protestors that just want to stop extrajudicial police killings; we caw cops turn protests into riots, and then use the riots as their excuse for using more violence.
I reject their authoritarian leanings, in the same way that I reject the authoritarian bullshit from Republicans.
We need to start reminding them that their beloved Founding Fathers wore makeup, powdered wigs, frilly blouses and tights.
Yeah but that was for showing off wealth. You had to make sure the poor people knew you were their better.
I run a bakery and helped a lady with a cake for her husband. She was constantly asking me if these were masculine enough colors and designs lol. I tricked them with trans pride colors. Worrying about your masculinity is one of the least masculine things you can do.
Well, hopefully you didn't get her beaten by an abusive spouse.
I have never eaten a cake that had "masculine features and designs"
How about a cake in the shape of a bicep, kind of like this flyer?
I know this goes a bit off from the article (I skimmed). But I think a lot of this toxic masculinity comes from decades of media on what a American man should be.
They need to be strong, independent, smart (sometimes), ingenious, a natural leader, angry at the "system", can shoot any gun with perfection, solve most all problems with a gun or a fist fight, never show any type of remorse or trauma from their violent "solutions", muscular, always get the girl, only drink brown liquors or beer, never bend, never negotiate, always win, and can walk away from an explosion without flinching.
This shit has been around since the 1940's and it still in use today. It used to be the Lone Ranger, Superman, batman. Then it was the strong independent cowboy taking on the "savages", The 70's it was Charles Bronson and Clint Eastwood taking on the Gangs of the inner cities. The 80's and 90's were Rambo and terminator, the 2000's with Mission Impossible, Jason Borne, John Wick. And James Bond all through out. Just to name a few
Not to take away from the entertainment of these movies and characters but I see lot's of men that take these fictional characters and try to make it their personality. But reality doesn't work that way. They can't go shoot your problems away. Hot women just don't fall leg spread for these guys (which makes them angrier). AND some men don't want to be this unrealistic version of an American man. Which for some reason pisses off those men that do want it....
Agreed. However, something has to be said for the fact that a lot of American society and economy has shifted value away from "dangerous" or otherwise physically demanding labor (e.g. coal mining, farm field work before automation) towards jobs that don't depend on how much muscle mass you have or other expressions of sex hormones. That value system was encoded into cultural norms and media, which, without the corresponding environment, just became a caricature.
The problem of focusing too much on the culture is that we miss what shaped it in the first place: a need to feel valued. If men aren't valued for their physique (or, to be frank, their biological expendability), then what's their value? The Left was too afraid of ruining their Feminist credibility to offer any serious solutions. Meanwhile, the Right leaned in to that caricature, and offered a solution full of misogyny and arrogance. When presented a choice between an awful solution and no solution, it's no wonder so many men fell prey to toxicity.
We need more non-toxic masculinity.
I don't get this idea of having to have the state or society fulfill the need to be valued at all. Can you please explain further what you mean by that?
Didn't mention the state, but it's also relevant...
A group of people (e.g. organization, community, society, corporation, government, etc.) is capable of collectively attributing value. People need to feel valued. Therefore a group of people is capable of fulfilling people's need to feel valued.
I'm not proposing a mandate, just a practical accounting.
But what do you mean in practicality? Something like equal rights or how much people are paid?
I think for example in certain jobs it's mostly the pay that makes people feel not valued enough. When you have less money you can't participate the same way as your neighbours or friends and then you feel left behind.
There's more to how people express or feel value. For example, these are some virtues people seem to value: honor, respect, trust, accomplishment, pride, duty, loyalty.
Money is just one way an employer can convey value to their employees or a customer coveys value to a business. It may come as a shock, but outside of those relationships, money isn't actually all that valuable.
Imagine someone being your friend just because you give them money... That's what I mean.
Things like loyalty, honor, trust, accomplishment, etc. are happening in people themselves or in the personal relationships of individuals. How can a group of people give that to other people, when you don't mean equal rights?
The one example I can think of are orders of merit. But these are obviously not things people need to thrive or experience feeling valued.
Because the point of the post is mental health, not the merits of egalitarianism. I just wanted to point out that, for the gross majority of human history, men's muscles and reproductive expendability were uniquely valuable traits. With automation and intellectual pursuits, those traits aren't quite so necessary.
Or am I misunderstanding?
No, I've just read it a view times now ("society / people need to value men more") and I don't understand how that's supposed to look like in concrete action.
Agreed; that's the challenge. I don't have a full answer, but I do know that it involves having something to work towards, not just something to fight against.
There is toxic people, of both genders, there is nothing inherently toxic to being a man, or a woman
Being manly is vital to the right wing.
And also their tendency to unleash face-eating leopards.
In my humble opinion all these fellas just seem to be running around like a beheaded chicken in search for the slightest amount self worth. Instead they started yearning for surrogates like wealth, power, status and what not.
The problem with these surrogates is that you cannot ever get enough of it. It'll never fill the gaping hole which is their sense of self.
IMO, the focus should be on being a good person and not on conforming to unrealistic gender stereotypes. One's gender presentation (or lack) is enhanced by universal positive attributes like honesty, confidence, commitment, charity, etc. This is not an original idea, but thought it worth saying.
Well said. We all spend a lot of time criticizing, and not enough time building up. Here are a few more (rather heavily paraphrased) ways to be a good person that I feel strongly about:
America, not even once.
Ugh. In these comments I see we've evolved from "men should man up and stop whining" to "men should stop manning up and theoretically start whining, but in practice still stop whining actually."
It's not their attitudes causing massive increases in suicides and deaths of despair, you fools. It's material conditions. And it's not caused by the right wing trolls who might try to take advantage. shoeonhead got it right imo
Edit:
I just read the article and it's one of the stupidest and most beligerently ideological things I've ever read.
Can we stop posting idiotic Salon.com articles Jesus fucking Christ liberal circle jerking at its finest. The same people that salivate over this nonsense will unironically state that faux news is white supremacists fascist racist literally Hitler propaganda (it's just right wing propaganda chuds).
Why is both Reddit and lemmy politics both just filled with leftist propaganda?
Real question, it's impossible to see both content as in these places it's just "trump bad, Biden god" well sorry, both are horrible people I want to see both sides.
Notice how this article does not mention Biden?
It's because you very rarely see people praising Biden as most of the left does not particularly like him, let alone worship him like the right does with Donnie Dipshit.
So essentially, you aren't mad at news that says "Trump bad, Biden good"; you're just mad at any news that simply says "Trump bad" and cant seem to fathom why there's not an equal number of articles saying Biden bad.
Well it's because one side is doing way more awful shit way more often.
Nah. One side is doing awful shit out of power steered by naivete, and the other side is doing awful shit out of naivete steered by power. Neither are particularly bad, really, it's just that they're both painfully stupid, and are steering the species towards death by pampering or death by power mongering.
I don't care about this article, I'm talking in general of this sub and reddits defaults.
Biden fucks up, it isn't posted yet people bring up trump's fuck ups all the time. Surely the focus would be on the current standing president and how he acts and what he does no?
I knew I would get downvotes for asking this simple question, can't have people not on the far left thinking..
I'd love to see the drugs found at the white house mentioned on these types of subs. Or the numerous times Biden has slipped up in talking like saying "god save the queen" for example, if trump did it, even now. It would be everywhere
A racist, sexist, bigot, unrefined bumbling moron who was born into huge wealth and still managed to lose money to the average market, did a whole lot more than just slip ups.
My brother in Christ you can't possibly compare gassing people out of a church for a quick anti-christ photoshoot with misplacing a word.
And don't even dare bringing up drugs. Like the Don and Donnie aren't high as fuck.
You know why no one cares about Hunter? He's not in the White House. You know who was? Someone elses kids.
So yes, Orange Man bad. Very very bad, that's why he's being sued from every possible angle, because he broke so many laws. Don't act like it's anywhere close to comparable.
Tldr
Biased as fuck towards the extreme left
Thanks, I will look else where for actual news about current President and what's happening
What extreme left?
Are we going to dismantle capitalism now?
If you see actual news, you know very well there's nothing extremely left going on anywhere.
Just because you put your faith in a bad actor, who turns out to be a very bad option, doesn't make rest of the world extreme.
Turning a blind eye to reality makes you the extreme one.
No of course not, it's just extreme right isn't it
Yes, it's globally on the rise, as the history keeps on repeating itself.
What do you consider extreme right and extreme left?
Currently the left and right are very different from history, before the left was "fuck the government" now it's very much "govern me harder"
The extreme left is those who parade the rainbow everywhere and try to force it in every subject, these people will censor and try to ruin lives of those who don't follow them. They also manufacture racism for their goals. very akin to facism.
The extreme right are those who are too proud of their country, reject everyone that isn't part of it, guns blazing, wanting tradition and will do anything to achieve that.
Then there's the more centralists where I am, but are classified as alt right by media, those who don't care what you do as long as you don't start forcing it or attacking over it, those who want to see both sides but can't as the current power, as I've been saying, is extremely left leaning in what it will present and what is allowed to be talked about.
I tried posting a link that showed that meta manipulated data in the 2020 election depending on what the Biden administration wanted and got banned for "you know what you're doing". Sorry we can talk about Jan 6 but not anything that lead up to that event that caused those people to act out so it doesn't repeat?
Those who don't learn from history are certainly doomed to repeat but it seems the left thinks if it can remove it from history and pretend no one is talking about it then they can get away with it..
We really need a neutral place to post both sides so people can actually maybe hopefully form their own opinions based off having the most information available to them
Again the meme of the leftist pushing the centralist to the right and then complaining "why are you on their side" is very true, the left invites hate and distrust if you aren't fully on their side
By all means.
Butting in here. I'm a stark centrist.
..Trump was an absolute shit show. With Trump, the right lost all claim to moral high ground -- which is incredibly unfortunate, because it hands the left the keys to the castle. Sure, Trump had some good policy decisions, in some areas. But it wasn't worth the cost. The right sacrificed their morals for power, amd lost their power in the process, plain and simple.
..now they'll slowly need to rebuild, and as they do, the left will be implementing so much naive and corrupt shit that the nation will be paying for it for the next 50 years* - and that's how the right will be paying for Trump, the 'right wing' poster boy who has no real right wing ideals.
*or, would be, if we weren't headed for total financial ruin
Can you name them?
But again, irrelevant. Post the shitshow Biden is doing, he is the current standing president yet people can't seem to let trump go because what? That's what you're told?
I didn't say Biden was doing any good. The topic was Trump. Why I don't let go of Trump's presidency is because he's decimated the right's claim to ant kind of moral authority. There are other presidents I don't let go of, but they weren't topical.
Who gives a shit about drugs in the white house lol
Fucking amazing thank you for showing the bias
I don't give a shit that Trump's kid is high as a kite either. I don't give a shit about people doing drugs. Drugs are kickass. It makes sense people would do drugs.
I care about actual news.
If it came out trump's kid was doing cocaine in the office then it would've made news and people would still bring it up
It did make the news and they did bring it up but I, personally, don't care
Sorry, not every website can be as good as TruthSocial.
Is truth social equal and not biased?
I'm sure you'll think so. It doesn't have any of that terrible evil liberal propaganda and lots of messages from the God Emperor about how he's totally innocent.
This seems like kinda a weird explanation.
So you're telling me it shows both parties at their worst and that's what makes it bad?
No wonder the meme about the left pushing a centralist is so right . You guys really see things in good v evil
I'm pretty sure that's not what I'm telling you.