Ceiling fan efficiency rule draws ire of House Republicans
Republicans on the House Small Business Committee pressed Energy Secretary Jennifer Granholm on Thursday for answers on proposed energy-efficiency standards for ceiling fans.
The proposed standards were first published in the Federal Register in June, and the comment period closed earlier this week. According to the Energy Department, the rule as applied to standard residential ceiling fans would cut fan-related electricity costs by about 40 percent relative to the least efficient fans currently available.
The House panel presented the rules as burdensome to ceiling fan manufacturers, particularly smaller ones.
“This proposed rule would decrease the maximum estimated energy consumption permissible for large diameter and belt driven ceiling fans,” committee Republicans wrote. “This rule would require numerous small business fan manufacturers to redesign their products and may put between 10 and 30 percent of small business ceiling fan manufacturers out of business. It appears that the Department of Energy may not have properly considered small entities during this rulemaking process.”
An Energy Department spokesperson told The Hill this aspect has been mischaracterized, saying in an email that the one-time total conversion cost would be about $107 million for all manufacturers.
“The incremental cost to consumers is $86.6 million annually, while the operating cost savings are $281 million annually — both at a 7 percent discount rate,” the spokesperson said. “The savings are more than triple the incremental costs.”
The spokesperson noted the standards, “which are required by Congress,” would not be in effect for five years and would save Americans “up to $369 million per year, while substantially reducing harmful air pollution — a crucial fact that some have conveniently failed to mention.”
…
Efficiency standards for home appliances have become culture war flashpoints under the Biden administration. The administration has restored a number of efficiency rules rolled back under the Trump administration, including for shower heads, water heaters and gas furnaces.
The most umbrage, however, has been reserved for efficiency regulations over gas stoves, beginning last year when Consumer Product Safety Commissioner Richard Trumka Jr. approved a request for information on hazards associated with the devices, which the CPSC formalized in March. Although Trumka has said there are no plans to ban gas stoves, House Republicans have introduced formal legislation this year to legally prevent such a ban.
Now they’re triggered by ceiling fans. You can’t make this shit up
Republicans have absolutely destroyed the satire industry.
"hahaha, fan beats man!"
In Korea, fans are no laughing matter.
Did you read the article? They're not triggered by ceiling fans, they're triggered by more regulations, which is pretty on brand for the conservative platform. Not saying I agree with them but your comment is a complete misrepresentation of the argument.
Is it though? Or is it that it's not their regulations being enforced.
It’s a joke bud
I don't get the joke?
How is that a joke? It's literally the opposite of what's going on. It would be one thing to say "now they're triggered over change" but their entire argument is that ceiling fans are fine how they are.
As usual Republicans fighting against regulations that will reduce energy consumption and save Americans money. If it were up to Republicans we'd still be using incandescent light bulbs and driving v8 engines that get 10 mpg.
I don't disagree with any of what you said but it's completely irrelevant to the topic of this post
Yeah like trying to regulate people's literal livelihood? How very libertarian of them.
The new standard is based on cubic feet of air moved per minute per watt. It's honestly pretty thoughtful in its implementation. I was expecting to see it was just some watt cap on products, but that's not what it is at all; you can still make very powerful fans, they just need to actually be moving meaningful amounts of air.
The main people hurt by a rule change like this will be import brand piece of shit fans that don't blow air and prey on vulnerable consumers. I doubt there is even one single US firm that will be negatively affected by this rule change because the cost of US manufacturing is WAY too high to be selling these dollar store fan products.
https://www.energy.gov/sites/default/files/2023-06/ceiling-fans-ecs-nopr.pdf
I would like them to be required to prominently display their power consumption. I feel like every other household appliance I own makes their energy consumption fairly clear, but I have no idea what kind of energy my fans use. Like it's probably more efficient to turn on every fan in my house all day rather than turn on my AC, but I have no idea if that's true.
Can confirm, was shopping for ceiling fans and finding the cfm per power on different power levels was a pain in the arse.
Should be part of Energy Star like other appliances.
As it was I had to search for DC and/or ECM motor fans and go from there.
How much power does one use? Asking for a friend.
Here's one I just installed (DC motor)
https://sofucorfan.com/products/sofucor-flush-mount-ceiling-fan-with-noiseless-reversible-motor-wood-52-inch
36W on full power with the light on. Almost nothing and whisper quiet.
AC fans tend to consume more power and are noisier, around ~75W for a similarly speced fan.
Sounds like a good way to make sure fan manufacturers aren't putting misleading labels on their fans. Like "Powerful 800W FAN" on the front in big letters but a low CFM rating on a label on the back, if at all.
Not the only ones hurt. Ceiling fans are largely decorative items in many cases and not meant to be aerodynamically efficient as their primary goal. I honestly don't believe this is a useful rule, because we want people to use fans to efficiently heat and cool their homes over just more heat or just more AC. Some folks might just decide to go with recessed lighting over a fan.
I haven't ever encountered a ceiling fan that was primarily decorative to the point it would be considered swappable with recessed lighting, where are you getting this impression?
The inch of dust on the front end of my ceiling fan blades certainly is decorative! I don't know how much it actually helps with heating and cooling overall but there are days that thing is on, it's a couple feet behind the couch, and I'm just freezing.
From selling them to home remodelers and knowing that people will go to great lengths to maintain a specific style of decor.
If only those manufacturers were somehow able to redesign their products to meet the new requirements.
Oh well, I guess they'll just go under.
So the idea is the fan's function is largely encompassed by the other infrastructure -- central air or heat pump, say -- but they keep it there anyway because it looks nice? Alright, to each their own
Yeah, my greater point is hopefully having it makes them use it.
We just installed a ceiling fan in the bedroom... It wasn't because of decor, but rather because you can sit in a room at 80 degrees with a fan on pretty comfortably. Without the fan and it's a miserable experience. This alone has significantly cut our AC usage.
You're preaching to the choir. I haven't used AC all summer in the mid Atlantic. Even a poor fan will circulate cold air higher and hot air lower off you are using climate controls.
Seems like that would be a good outcome. Less needless consumption.
Crocodile tears. Republicans don’t care about small businesses. This is just a “Democrats want this? Gotta fight it!” moment, because they have no actual platform.
They’re contrarians. They don’t stand for anything except the opposite of the Democrats.
That’s the most baffling thing to me when I see so many grown ass adults buying into these cults of personality. Like…what the fuck does your candidate propose to actually do? Just screaming and throwing tantrums like a toddler, and that’s the guy you cast your vote for? I don’t get it
Their campaigns are always based on fear and hate of some imagined group or perceived enemy.a lot of these people have also been trained by birth by religious groups to conform to the tribe and to have blind obedience to their leaders.
It’s because a lot of them are emotionally immature and not good at critical thinking. It might come off as mean but it’s true, and this is by design. Republicans have been attacking schools decade after decade and this is the consequence (for those innocent people). They do it because if their base gets smarter and starts to question things they will vote them out, they might find less value in religion, etc. and suddenly the conservative world of control that the crave comes crashing down. They’ve made a lot of headway in recent years (extreme push for charter schools that are less accountable to the public, trying to force their religious doctrine into schools, attacking libraries and banning books) so things are just going to get worse for the next generation, especially those born in “red states”.
I'm just wondering how many ceiling fan brands count as a small business. Seriously, they're pitching a fit on behalf of... who exactly? Sounds pretty concern troll to me.
How many ceiling fan brands are even made in the U.S. at this point?
I would bet their are some unique company's that make custom fans but with regulations like this they will have to have their fans certified before they can sell them. That is simply not possible when your making only few hundred a year.
But hey it is only the ceiling fan market they are considering. Nothing to do with my jobs so why shouldn't I support this?
They do care overall about over regulation. These kinds of regulations ensure startup are not able to enter those markets and take a few others out. Your large manufacturers will encourage these laws as it ensure less competition and they can easily navigate it. If your a small family operation and make a few hundred unique custom fans, there is no way you will afford the testing process to qualify. You think that is fine?
If your startup is relying on being less efficient than the competition, you're already failing
Then don't complain when large corporations have near exclusive market share. Or are you fine with that?
Startups might have it easier since they won't have existing stock and can design everything to code from the start.
Completely wrong. You have no idea how difficult it is to get something like this approved. A start-up can't hire someone to navigate this framework and simply won't even try. They have typically very little money to begin and less time to spend months having their product tested or approved.
We're talking about "ceiling fans" right?
Yes. What do you think it takes to treat and verify something like this? Typically it needs to be submitted to a standard institution that will do the testing and verify it meets code. That alone is quite expensive and time consuming. This before you submit any regulatory documents.
Ye, let's ignore climate change and kill millions of people so that small businesses can stay open.
Which is already not a definite fact, but even if it was the same regulations can be written in such a way that grants exceptions to small businesses and funding to alleviate retooling / development costs.
If your so worried about small businesses closing down because of regulations, a better way of dealing with it isn't to stop all regulation.
I think I can argue that smaller businesses would be able to iterate and make these changes quicker...
What fan manufacturers are small businesses anyway?
The cost to navigate and get approvals is very hard. And none of that time and money is covered by the government. From a guy that has to deal with government regulatory issues often, it is very difficult for a small business to navigate it. For a start up, often these guys are typically working just to break even. To hire someone to tackle the government regulatory process makes it impossible.
There is a reason establish companies are often the companies that are encouraging these regulations. They love it. Is very financially beneficial their industry is highly regulated.
Except it just makes it even harder to navigate when you make the regulation even more complicated with special cases. People are wondering why costs are so high and why large corporations have so much control and market share. It is these corporations that encourage regulations like this.
Exactly, like this. As I said, you can write regulations so that small business aren't affected by these problems, have it so that if you operate under a certain threshold it doesn't apply to your company, and when the company does give them ample time and warning of the changes that they need to make.
You seem to have this notion that laws can only be written in over-complicated lawyer speak, and to a certain extent in places like the US and EU it's true, but it doesn't have to. Let's also reiterate that I'd rather a small business go bust, than continue to produce environmentally unfriendly products in the name of "competition", due to the whole tens to hundreds of millions of people dying due to the effects of climate change.
Also a less than zero chance the DOE is even going to notice, much less come after you.
Literally the only companies this reg would affect are import brands. The guy making custom unique fans out of junkyard parts probably doesn't even pay taxes.
How??
You have any idea what it costs to get an approval and navigate this? You think a start-up can afford to hire very high priced people or services to do this? You think they have the time for small owners to focus on this when typically they are near break even to begin?
I really hope, if its a company designing and manufacturing their own fans, that they have an engineer already. Theres already electrical codes they have to meet. So i dont see any additional cost to a startup.
There may be some code but much of it is in the motor of which will already be approved. The mechanics is where much of this arises and you don't need engineers to design this is you have any talent. Also an engineer might be done in the design and that is the easiest part. But they don't engage into the regulatory part to get something approved. I have hoped engineers and that it typically bit what they do. If it is a firm, they may have people that can do this for you.
For example, I took a electronic device and made it intrinsically safe without engineers. It took about a year and 100,000 to get a double simple CSA sticker on it. In that year, that was a great deal of my own time to do this. Time less doesn't t trying to build up a business. Money spent that could better go to employees.
All of it is in the motor! This is a regulation about power draw
Oh I wish. Motors alone are super efficient. I wouldn't be certain how they would calculate fan efficiency exactly but I suspect it will be based on some heat to CFM ratio. A standard cocoanut like CSA will likely have to be engaged to do the testing. Is very expensive. I done stuff like this before.
Lol, no the fuck they don’t. This is all posturing. And regulation is good for consumers so why the hell wouldn’t they care about it when it makes sense? Does a small startup fan manufacturer who clearly is making ornamental fans really need to be supported over all consumers and our environment?
If you are fine with small companies not being able to compete with establish large corporations as you say, then I guess this is entirely fine. But don't complain about large corporations being the only suppliers and seeing high prices to the consumers. Something that is happening right now.
Spare me your bs. If they actually cared they’d spend more time busting monopolies of Hampton bay and other huge ceiling fan providers to make room for the little guys. This is grand standing and trying to keep it easy on their corporate sponsors plain and simple. You are either willfully ignorant or just easily manipulated. Or maybe just a troll.
Why would they bust those guys? Why don't other parties busy those guys if they are doing something illegal? What exactly do you think the larger companies that build ceiling fans are doing that is illegal for that matter? Did you just make that up?
if republicans are doing this to fight big business, how about they actually fight big business? then they can have an actual platform that might attract a voter base, rather than just bigotry and opposition.
They’ll clutch at anything they think they might be able to use to piss off their constituents, won’t they?
“They’re coming for you gas stoves, citizen! Where will it end? What will you cook food for your family on?! Pic up a ‘don’t step on the gas’ ballcap for only $49.99, and go get ‘em!”
Remember people hording incandescent light bulbs when those were restricted?
At this point I can't even fathom wanting an incandescent bulb.
I remember when some of the first LED bulbs hit the market, I replaced every bulb in my room (still living at home at my parents' house) and never looked back.
Back then it cost like $20 a bulb, didn't care.
The lights in my ceiling fan had a tendency to burn out frequently, never could identify a reason why after plenty of troubleshooting, but it incandescent bulbs did not like that fan.
Pretty sure those same bulbs are still in there like 15 years later.
Also my room was always the hottest in the house, and I was willing to try anything to shave off a couple of degrees. I never stuck a thermometer in there to measure it, so it could have been a placebo effect, but it certainly seemed like it maybe knocked a degree or two off the temperature to me.
LED bulbs were crap for the first couple years they were available. They were expensive and failed a lot. They're much, much better today.
They're still useful for things like older-model Easy-Bake Ovens and such.
I remember either a joke (or possibly a real attempt) about re-branding them to "heat orbs" or something to get around the ban.
They do get 100 CRI!
Though if you want perfect color reproduction its much better to get actually professional equipment
Is this actually a concern? Having legislation rolled out to force new and better technology to reach the market, thus causing systemic savings of energy and money?
The way it's written it's as if the consumer is forced to go get a new ceiling fan or gas stove the moment the new ones land in the market.
And if some small manufacturers go bust, that means room for others to appear.
It’s either this or they actually work on actual policy
So yeah, this is a concern for those fascists
It's always supposedly about protecting the little guy, the small business person. While also, just coincidentally mind you, also protecting mega corporations that bankroll the GOP.
Funny how Conservatives get so upset about conserving resources.
The roster of Republicans who signed the letter:
FL & TX ffs.
Meanwhile ERCOT is asking people in Texas to conserve power damn near daily at this point.
Republicans don’t care if you can’t use your fans, they only care that you keep buying them.
We are only consumers to feed corporate profits in their equations.
They're all made in China/Philippines. Even the US brands like Vornado and Dyson.
Republicans want to export dollars to East Asia.
Dyson was originally a British company, though they're now based on Singapore.
Mfing Harry Potter villain name how could anyone expect any different?
Hmm. In terms of policy priorities, it probably makes more sense to push for more installation and usage of ceiling fans. Ceiling fan efficiency is a decidedly secondary issue; even the most inefficient ceiling fan uses a tiny fraction of the energy needed by air conditioning.
Gods but I hate those stupid bastards.
So I guess the shit has hit the fan?
More efficient appliances might just save consumers a little money down the road. Guess conservatives don't want consumers to save a little money down the road.