I imagine there are at least some Adams voters out there who thought a "law and order" candidate would be totally different this time because he was black
But the truth is ACAB.
Probably should have voted based on the content of his character. Never mind they'll have another chance to do that in four years time. Although having said that he might be up against someone whose character is even worse.
He's gonna get reelected. He's got a Trump-like hold over a voting bloc big enough to win the primary.
me. like obviously I knew this was a problem but I expected to be maybe 50% of stops being white, so would still be vastly over-representing minorities but 95% is mind boggling.
Is that disproportionate to the crime rate? If not, then I'm not sure how this is Mayor Adams' fault.
One of the issues with following a crime rate is that it perpetuates discrimination.
Even if two groups have the exact same probability of, for example, carrying illegal substances, racist targeting will mean your crime rate will continue to reflect that one group “seems worse”.
You don’t spot crime where you dont look for it.
That’s why it’s important to tackle these issues and make sure there is no racial targeting.
As an example:
Imagine, for the sake of argument, both white people and black people have a 50% chance of possessing weed (not that weed should even be criminalized, but you get the idea).
Now also let's take a group of 100 people, assuming 80 are white and 20 are black. Given the above weed possession rate, we can say there are 40 weed-carrying white people and 10 weed-carrying black people.
Now imagine cops last year searched 20% of the total population, 90% of those searched being black and 10% being white. Thus, last year, 18 black people were searched and only 2 white people. Of these searched people, 9 black people were caught in possession of weed vs 1 white person.
Thus, the newspapers can now publish "9 black criminals for every 1 white criminal!", and so the police decide to continue mostly searching black people this year.
Same underlying crime rates, but searching one demographic more skews the resulting arrest record and seemingly justifies further discriminatory enforcement.
Don't even need to imagine it when every study shows that is an accurate description.
Sure, but a lot of people need it very clearly spelled out for them.
Thank you and the poster above you for explaining that so well.
What a wonderful, easy to understand example. Thank you for this
Yep.
If you're only stopping people in cargo shorts to search them for drugs, you're only going to find drugs on people wearing cargo shorts.
Doesn't mean they're the only ones carrying drugs around. They're just waaaaay more likely to get caught because they're the ones getting searched
That makes sense. Do you think that there's a large amount of drug crime among white folks that is presently being ignored?
No cop ever searched me for drugs, even when I obviously smelled like weed. Total white privilege.
I know from my days as a young white guy that enjoyed extracurricular activities that I could do damn near anything in front of cops while smelling like extracurricular activities and cops never hassled me...
Meanwhile my Black friends constantly got hassled even if they never broke laws.
Cops see nervousness as indication of guilt. So if you're afraid of cops (because they may kill you over nothing) the cops are going to see that as reason to hassle you.
Even if it's not explicit racism on the cops behalf, the racist environment of policing means it's going to affect how they do their job and who they hassle. That's why people keep saying it's a systemic issue.
Cops are a lot like dogs or wild animals. They don't often use higher logic like normal people. Because they're trained to "trust their gut" even tho absolutely no science backs it up. It's easy and makes them feel smart, so that's what they do.
Weird how you keep asking "questions" like this after you were already shown that the stops were extremely disproportionate. It's almost like you didn't care about the answers to the questions at all, and were just using "questions" as a vehicle to insert your already formed opinions.
Lol, true. Let me show you how a real man deals with this troll the Rex Kwan Do way.
Come at me with a "question".
"Why don't they just follow the rules like everyone AHH!"
See, I just block and walk away. Block and walk away.
from the article:
Black and Latino people are “much less likely to get arrested because the stops are bogus from the get-go,”
so, no. the disproportionate number of stops is not because of differences in crime rates. but also, it should be pretty obvious that white people (who are around 30% of the NYC population) should account for more than just 5% of crimes, even considering that more crime will be committed by poor people, and that poor people will be disproportionately non-white.
Funny thing about the crime rate, if you only hunt for the black criminals, that's what you're gonna find.
I was coming here to post that certain people will use this statistic to claim 95% of crime is committed by non-whites.
But I think you just saved me the trouble by demonstrating my point
Derailing answer for a good faith inquiry.
Skin color has nothing to do with crime rates. You can tell if a system is racist by looking at its rates compared to demographics. Only stopping 5% white people when their population in the area is 60% is a red flag. Essential being a white criminal in that area was like being invisible.
The arrest rate is around 43% for black people. White is about 17%.
The issue, though, is this is stop and frisk. It is just an excuse to stop people. It isn't effective law enforcement.
Yes. Most studies show blacks commit a majority of the crimes but not 95%
That logic only works under the assumption everyone that commits a crime is caught...
Which is incredibly naive.
You should use "convicted of crimes" not "committed crimes". And even then, that's ignoring how our justice system uses insane prison sentences to make people take plea deals. So innocent people are coerced into pleasing guilty to avoid jail.
There are literally no valid, trustworthy crime statistics in the US. Police only stop people they want to stop, they more often than not lie in court to secure convictions, public defenders have obscene caseloads that leave them entirely unable to provide a competent, effective defense, and, as you said, defendants are all but forced into shit plea deals for crimes they usually either didn't commit or shouldn't be imprisoned for.
The US justice system isn't just broken, it's nearly nonexistent and should be treated as entirely illegitimate.
Actually commit, or arrested for, or convicted for? I’m on mobile and can’t dive the PDF, but “commit” sounds like it’s a denominator, not a numerator.
Holy shit, looks like some people LIKE to get race-baited. They ACTIVELY look for reasons to be baited.
First off the demographics of NYC: 39% White, 23% Black, 27% Hispanic, 13% Asian.
Secondly, the demographics for the NY Police Force: There are MORE minority Police Officers (11,700) than there are white ones (10,500). There are almost as many minority Detectives (2,200) as there are white ones (2,900).
But with ALLLLL that, the first thing that people do is jump to the "It'S aLL RaCiSm!1!!!".
You people need to go outside more. You are talking about one of the most diverse cities in the country, with one of the smallest populations of white people, with a police department that is made up of a majority of minority groups and a black mayor. And with all that, you immediately jump to the bullshit that racism is at place.
You don't get a "Get Out of Racism Free" card if you're born a minority, you know.
You misspelled victimhood. This is a city that is nearly split evenly between 3 races (roughly 30% of the population each). In that kind of place, you are not a "minority" unless you want to endlessly be called a victim because you know that will get your special treatment.
This is a place with a black mayor, with majority black police officers, and yet victims still want to cry racism.
Again, you can still enact racist policies while being of the same race as the victims. The problem is institutional, not just personal. Just because they get a black guy, or populate their strike forces with more diverse people, doesn't mean racism is solved. It just means people like you can safely ignore the problem.
Too many people either don't understand or don't take into account systemic issues that are foundational to many institutions.
There are MORE minority Police Officers (11,700) than there are white ones (10,500). There are almost as many minority Detectives (2,200) as there are white ones (2,900).
In that kind of place, you are not a "minority" unless you want to endlessly be called a victim because you know that will get your special treatment.
Or if you’re trying to prove your point, I guess.
Also, how does the prevalent and well-documented history of black slave traders fit into this narrative of yours? Before you say they were forced into it, they weren’t.
One last question: do you also believe white people can’t be racist against other white people? Because I can show you plenty lol
Racism is a systematic issue. It doesn't just manifest near white skin
Yes, the black mayor has told the black police officers to be racist against black people. Yup. That sure makes a whole ton of sense!1!! /s
You do realize you're getting angry at an argument no one is claiming, right?
They're the only arguments conservatives can win...
Were you born this stupid, or do you just drink a lot of lead paint?
I read a lot of the idiotic responses in this thread and it made my head hurt from the race-baited stupidity.
So you decided to add to the avalanche of idiotic drivel? Bc that's what your comments are. Absolutely moronic buffoonery. You added nothing of value to the conversation, and did nothing to intelligently discuss any actual race-baiting, while performing race-baiting yourself.
Learning about, acknowledging, and discussing systemic issues is a societal duty that all adults should take seriously. But somehow I get the feeling that you see societal issues as a team sport.
Which shows a fundamental lack of intelligence (both mental and emotional), lack of care, and inability to think in a way that opens yourself up to new thought.
Educate yourself, fool.
You're so not racist that you circled around and became racist. Minorities can be racist. The mayor being a black man doesn't mean racism is dead you walnut. FFS has everyone forgotten NWA??
The minority officers are being racist against their own people. In your warped perception of the world that's clearly is what is happening here.
Holy shit folks... he's SO close to actually getting it but doesn't...
Holy shit, you will spin whatever you want to fit you narrative that everyone is RaCiSt!1!!! Because that is what simpletons do.
You can always tell who is right in a conversation because they always call their opponent names and type like SpongeBob
You can tell who has no point in a conversation when it always collapses down to a "durrrrrr he's rAcIsT" argument. Extra funny when the people that are called racist, are claimed to be racist against their own kind.
Extra funny when the people that are called racist, are claimed to be racist against their own kind.
claimed to be racist against their own kind
against their own kind
own kind
Why is it always the racists who claim racism doesn't exist?
Why is it always the stupid ones who come up with conspiracies that don't exist?
Brain dead morons have nothing else to do other than find ways to be offended.
You seem very emotional right now and it's not conducive to a good conversation. Good day to you.
Yes, its pretty standard tactics at this point (sadly) give a couple of the minority you dont like the promise to treat them better if they come to your side so you can use them as a political piece. This is why Caitlyn Jenner has her neiche being the anti-trans trans woman on fox news.
Caitlyn Jenner should be in jail for manslaughter. But reasons.
Do tell us why white people have been stopped significantly far less than non-white people. Are non-white people just natural criminals?
The minority officers are being rAcIsT against their own kind, I guess.
Please answer my question. You're blatantly avoiding it. It's not a good look.
It's racism.... the black cops and black mayor are being racist against black citizens. That's what you want to hear. Clearly. That can be the ONLY answer, right?
So 40% of the population is only being stopped 5% of the time while the other 60% are stopped 95% of the time? Why didn't you include this statistic with your others? Your superficial argument boils down to someone saying "I'm not racist. A friend of mine is black!"
Is anyone supprised?
I imagine there are at least some Adams voters out there who thought a "law and order" candidate would be totally different this time because he was black
But the truth is ACAB.
Probably should have voted based on the content of his character. Never mind they'll have another chance to do that in four years time. Although having said that he might be up against someone whose character is even worse.
He's gonna get reelected. He's got a Trump-like hold over a voting bloc big enough to win the primary.
me. like obviously I knew this was a problem but I expected to be maybe 50% of stops being white, so would still be vastly over-representing minorities but 95% is mind boggling.
That is honestly sobering. And depressing.
Mostly sobering, because I was happily drunk before reading this.
I think we should stop and frisk on anyone with a suit that looks too expensive or in a limo. Check them for stuff like mortgage backed securities.
For those wondering, 5% of 10,000 people is 500 people.
So math time. NYC has a 41% white demographic.
If all 5% white people stopped were legit stops, my calculator says only 12.19% of the stops were legitimate.
Oh boy amateur racial crime stats
Yes.
This doesn't seem like a bestness of fit test. What type of statistical test did you run?
So only 7.56% of all police stops of non-white people were legit? (10.05+x0.95=.1219, x=0.0756)
Is that disproportionate to the crime rate? If not, then I'm not sure how this is Mayor Adams' fault.
One of the issues with following a crime rate is that it perpetuates discrimination.
Even if two groups have the exact same probability of, for example, carrying illegal substances, racist targeting will mean your crime rate will continue to reflect that one group “seems worse”.
You don’t spot crime where you dont look for it.
That’s why it’s important to tackle these issues and make sure there is no racial targeting.
As an example:
Imagine, for the sake of argument, both white people and black people have a 50% chance of possessing weed (not that weed should even be criminalized, but you get the idea).
Now also let's take a group of 100 people, assuming 80 are white and 20 are black. Given the above weed possession rate, we can say there are 40 weed-carrying white people and 10 weed-carrying black people.
Now imagine cops last year searched 20% of the total population, 90% of those searched being black and 10% being white. Thus, last year, 18 black people were searched and only 2 white people. Of these searched people, 9 black people were caught in possession of weed vs 1 white person.
Thus, the newspapers can now publish "9 black criminals for every 1 white criminal!", and so the police decide to continue mostly searching black people this year.
Same underlying crime rates, but searching one demographic more skews the resulting arrest record and seemingly justifies further discriminatory enforcement.
Don't even need to imagine it when every study shows that is an accurate description.
Sure, but a lot of people need it very clearly spelled out for them.
Thank you and the poster above you for explaining that so well.
What a wonderful, easy to understand example. Thank you for this
Yep.
If you're only stopping people in cargo shorts to search them for drugs, you're only going to find drugs on people wearing cargo shorts.
Doesn't mean they're the only ones carrying drugs around. They're just waaaaay more likely to get caught because they're the ones getting searched
That makes sense. Do you think that there's a large amount of drug crime among white folks that is presently being ignored?
No cop ever searched me for drugs, even when I obviously smelled like weed. Total white privilege.
I know from my days as a young white guy that enjoyed extracurricular activities that I could do damn near anything in front of cops while smelling like extracurricular activities and cops never hassled me...
Meanwhile my Black friends constantly got hassled even if they never broke laws.
Cops see nervousness as indication of guilt. So if you're afraid of cops (because they may kill you over nothing) the cops are going to see that as reason to hassle you.
Even if it's not explicit racism on the cops behalf, the racist environment of policing means it's going to affect how they do their job and who they hassle. That's why people keep saying it's a systemic issue.
Cops are a lot like dogs or wild animals. They don't often use higher logic like normal people. Because they're trained to "trust their gut" even tho absolutely no science backs it up. It's easy and makes them feel smart, so that's what they do.
Weird how you keep asking "questions" like this after you were already shown that the stops were extremely disproportionate. It's almost like you didn't care about the answers to the questions at all, and were just using "questions" as a vehicle to insert your already formed opinions.
Lol, true. Let me show you how a real man deals with this troll the Rex Kwan Do way.
Come at me with a "question".
"Why don't they just follow the rules like everyone AHH!"
See, I just block and walk away. Block and walk away.
from the article:
so, no. the disproportionate number of stops is not because of differences in crime rates. but also, it should be pretty obvious that white people (who are around 30% of the NYC population) should account for more than just 5% of crimes, even considering that more crime will be committed by poor people, and that poor people will be disproportionately non-white.
Funny thing about the crime rate, if you only hunt for the black criminals, that's what you're gonna find.
I was coming here to post that certain people will use this statistic to claim 95% of crime is committed by non-whites.
But I think you just saved me the trouble by demonstrating my point
Derailing answer for a good faith inquiry.
Skin color has nothing to do with crime rates. You can tell if a system is racist by looking at its rates compared to demographics. Only stopping 5% white people when their population in the area is 60% is a red flag. Essential being a white criminal in that area was like being invisible.
Yes. Most studies show blacks commit a majority of the crimes but not 95% https://www.nyc.gov/assets/nypd/downloads/pdf/analysis_and_planning/year-end-2022-enforcement-report.pdf
The arrest rate is around 43% for black people. White is about 17%.
The issue, though, is this is stop and frisk. It is just an excuse to stop people. It isn't effective law enforcement.
That logic only works under the assumption everyone that commits a crime is caught...
Which is incredibly naive.
You should use "convicted of crimes" not "committed crimes". And even then, that's ignoring how our justice system uses insane prison sentences to make people take plea deals. So innocent people are coerced into pleasing guilty to avoid jail.
There are literally no valid, trustworthy crime statistics in the US. Police only stop people they want to stop, they more often than not lie in court to secure convictions, public defenders have obscene caseloads that leave them entirely unable to provide a competent, effective defense, and, as you said, defendants are all but forced into shit plea deals for crimes they usually either didn't commit or shouldn't be imprisoned for.
The US justice system isn't just broken, it's nearly nonexistent and should be treated as entirely illegitimate.
Actually commit, or arrested for, or convicted for? I’m on mobile and can’t dive the PDF, but “commit” sounds like it’s a denominator, not a numerator.
Holy shit, looks like some people LIKE to get race-baited. They ACTIVELY look for reasons to be baited.
First off the demographics of NYC: 39% White, 23% Black, 27% Hispanic, 13% Asian.
Secondly, the demographics for the NY Police Force: There are MORE minority Police Officers (11,700) than there are white ones (10,500). There are almost as many minority Detectives (2,200) as there are white ones (2,900).
Lastly, do we have to remind everyone who the mayor of NYC is? Newsflash, it's this guy: https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2021/11/02/ap_21299839634856-15de819fbdc2d00eb39794e510225e27a5f60ec3-s1600-c85.webp
But with ALLLLL that, the first thing that people do is jump to the "It'S aLL RaCiSm!1!!!".
You people need to go outside more. You are talking about one of the most diverse cities in the country, with one of the smallest populations of white people, with a police department that is made up of a majority of minority groups and a black mayor. And with all that, you immediately jump to the bullshit that racism is at place.
You don't get a "Get Out of Racism Free" card if you're born a minority, you know.
You misspelled victimhood. This is a city that is nearly split evenly between 3 races (roughly 30% of the population each). In that kind of place, you are not a "minority" unless you want to endlessly be called a victim because you know that will get your special treatment.
This is a place with a black mayor, with majority black police officers, and yet victims still want to cry racism.
Again, you can still enact racist policies while being of the same race as the victims. The problem is institutional, not just personal. Just because they get a black guy, or populate their strike forces with more diverse people, doesn't mean racism is solved. It just means people like you can safely ignore the problem.
@Zorque @gAlienLifeform @Hazdaz
Too many people either don't understand or don't take into account systemic issues that are foundational to many institutions.
Or if you’re trying to prove your point, I guess.
Also, how does the prevalent and well-documented history of black slave traders fit into this narrative of yours? Before you say they were forced into it, they weren’t.
One last question: do you also believe white people can’t be racist against other white people? Because I can show you plenty lol
Racism is a systematic issue. It doesn't just manifest near white skin
Yes, the black mayor has told the black police officers to be racist against black people. Yup. That sure makes a whole ton of sense!1!! /s
You do realize you're getting angry at an argument no one is claiming, right?
They're the only arguments conservatives can win...
Were you born this stupid, or do you just drink a lot of lead paint?
I read a lot of the idiotic responses in this thread and it made my head hurt from the race-baited stupidity.
So you decided to add to the avalanche of idiotic drivel? Bc that's what your comments are. Absolutely moronic buffoonery. You added nothing of value to the conversation, and did nothing to intelligently discuss any actual race-baiting, while performing race-baiting yourself.
Learning about, acknowledging, and discussing systemic issues is a societal duty that all adults should take seriously. But somehow I get the feeling that you see societal issues as a team sport.
Which shows a fundamental lack of intelligence (both mental and emotional), lack of care, and inability to think in a way that opens yourself up to new thought.
Educate yourself, fool.
You're so not racist that you circled around and became racist. Minorities can be racist. The mayor being a black man doesn't mean racism is dead you walnut. FFS has everyone forgotten NWA??
The minority officers are being racist against their own people. In your warped perception of the world that's clearly is what is happening here.
Holy shit folks... he's SO close to actually getting it but doesn't...
Holy shit, you will spin whatever you want to fit you narrative that everyone is RaCiSt!1!!! Because that is what simpletons do.
You can always tell who is right in a conversation because they always call their opponent names and type like SpongeBob
You can tell who has no point in a conversation when it always collapses down to a "durrrrrr he's rAcIsT" argument. Extra funny when the people that are called racist, are claimed to be racist against their own kind.
Why is it always the racists who claim racism doesn't exist?
Why is it always the stupid ones who come up with conspiracies that don't exist?
Brain dead morons have nothing else to do other than find ways to be offended.
You seem very emotional right now and it's not conducive to a good conversation. Good day to you.
Yes, its pretty standard tactics at this point (sadly) give a couple of the minority you dont like the promise to treat them better if they come to your side so you can use them as a political piece. This is why Caitlyn Jenner has her neiche being the anti-trans trans woman on fox news.
Caitlyn Jenner should be in jail for manslaughter. But reasons.
Do tell us why white people have been stopped significantly far less than non-white people. Are non-white people just natural criminals?
The minority officers are being rAcIsT against their own kind, I guess.
Please answer my question. You're blatantly avoiding it. It's not a good look.
It's racism.... the black cops and black mayor are being racist against black citizens. That's what you want to hear. Clearly. That can be the ONLY answer, right?
So 40% of the population is only being stopped 5% of the time while the other 60% are stopped 95% of the time? Why didn't you include this statistic with your others? Your superficial argument boils down to someone saying "I'm not racist. A friend of mine is black!"