We have two big problems here, one that this person would make the phone calls, but you will never 100% fix human nature.
The biggest problem is that police will send a SWAT team after nothing but an anonymous phone call.
This is the part that gets me. It keeps happening and they think that it’s just fine.
They just love any excuse to pull out the toys.
When I was in high school I thought I was going to be a cop. Mostly because I was an unoriginal idiot and a friend wanted to be a cop. Went so far as to go through the explorers program where you hang out with cops and they show you stuff. You go on ride alongs. Spend a lot of time with cops.
As it happens about half the guys teaching this program were swat.
They were drooling for any excuse to suit up and kick down doors.
This was 20 years ago, at the time they'd tell you that 90% of officers never use their firearm on duty.
It colors their perception of any situation. Affects their decision making.
Could this be a prank? Maybe. But could I put on the armor and kick in a door? I mean they did call in a threat....
Yeah. I took a communications course from a former cop/hostage negotiator. It was actually pretty informative. There is a national program to teach police how to be effective and empathetic communicators trained to defuse high stakes situations.
They just don't teach it to most cops.
I overall agree with your points but I will say that the type of person who probably excels at a life-or-death job like swat is someone who lives for that adrenaline rush in the first place. The problem is in their over-activation, like an overly-active immune system.
I watched the Uvalde PBS Frontline documentary and what stood out to me is that all those cops were glorified ticket cops one-step removed from mall cops. The only two guys showcased to seem to know what they were doing and had a willingness to do so were the border patrol's equivalent to swat, BORTAC, who seemed professional and were the ones who entered the room first and ultimately eliminated the shooter.
One of the more unnerving "benign" interactions I've had with a cop was when the officer standing guard duty at the DMV subjected my wife and I to ten minutes of exposition about his various weapons and the effects they had on people while we waited for the line to move us out of conversation range. It's never been more clear to me that somebody desperately wants an excuse to do violence, to anybody he might be allowed to.
That guy almost needs to be reported as a danger. He knows all the weepon effects and has put himself in a position where he may be able to legally find out.
Boys with toys mentality. 🙄
They like it. It’s fun.
I mean the main reason they do that is they have to take it seriously. If they decided to ignore anonymous tips, then how many actual situations would they fail to prevent and handle.
Swatting is just taking advantage of the fact that they have no choice but to take it seriously.
That being said, if it's a place that gets swatted regularly or a place that's likely to be swatted due to various reasons they should have precautions in place with people they can trust in order to double check before acting, or at least be prepared to go in with their guns still holstered.
The problem isn't that the police respond, it's how they respond. The fact that the police themselves are so dangerous to the presumptive victim on whose behalf they're responding -- as tacitly acknowledged by "swatting" being treated as a serious crime going beyond mere misuse of police resources -- is the much bigger problem here. Frankly, going after swatters is at least 50% a misdirection tactic: an attempt to shift the blame away from the reckless police.
Patrick Tomlinson was swatted over 40 times in 2023 alone. It took WAY too many times before the police would simply knock on his door and ask him if everything was okay. You'd think after the 4th or 5th time they might figure it out.
You'd think Patrick would have set up a big sign like "Hello, if you're swat, chill! It's just a prank bro! Just come in and have a beer." But no, so the guy basically resisted /s
The frustrating thing was that the police had him on a list. They KNEW the history. But half the time they still rolled up ready for war. It was a banner day when he was woken up at 3 in the morning only by two normal officers knocking on the door to let him know it happened again.
They don't need to send SWAT teams. They just do it for kicks.
Oh shut up with these intellectually dishonest arguments. You know there's a problem you know the police are overly aggressive to civilians but hey that's fine I guess and swat to every situation, come on.
This is about American police being way over militaryized. Swatting is not a problem in many other nations so it's a solvable issue but if we're just going to say it's acceptable then nothing will ever change.
You 100% misunderstood me or you meant to reply to someone else.
Huh? You.just want em to send Joe bob over for a chit chat? He'll unwind this whole bomb thingie-whatever
Yep, that's exactly what I want them to do. Unarmed.
Carry that thought. Then what?
Bomber blows up the neighborhood and Joe bob did fuck all.
To be clear, I'm not making light of swatting, and not accepting the culture of modern cops to go all tactical to every little thing. Injustices are happening, people are getting hurt.
I personally want to live in a country where a bomb threat is treated with maximum seriousness.
Are you suggesting that unarmed negotiators don't have an amazing success rate?
They are public servants who volunteer to do a dangerous job. Considering the way they treat innocent people now, yeah I'd much rather hire competent people who are willing to do the job properly.
I'd love to see a source on that. I've never heard negotiators are particularly effective.
"Amazing success rate" sounds like a 75% + de-escalation rate with the offender in custody and the bomb undetonated.
Nope. I don't have numbers. But I have seen competent, compassionate people talk desperate people out of some dire situations without harm to anyone. We should always start there. Every single time.
Cops on the other hand must be leashed.
I spoke to the tactical-happy nature of cops, and how that's a serious issue. I pretty specifically constrained my area of discussion to bomb threats. I acknowledge that for other issues of less terroristic nature, a negotiator is great. (Wellness checks, domestic issues, substance issues, etc)
Thanks for clarifying the anecdotal source though.
Crazy to see you get down voted for this.
Not taking the threat seriously is exactly how Uvalde started.
"popular" sentiment is FULLY ACAB, dearm, negotiate, community activist.
Life is not black and white. Sometimes a strong response is needed. I'm real fucking thankful police exist. Despite their massive failings.
On the other hand there are many many many calls that don't need an armed response, and a community negotiator is a better choice.
Ultimately policing in north America needs massive restructuring. Unnecessary violence and injustice are happening everyday, especially to minorities.
But the response to bomb threats is NOT the top of the list of changes.
By that logic, why not send the Marines?
Huh? The military isn't deployed domestically.
Do you mean the national guard? They don't train on residential bomb threats do they?
I want the most local, most able team to respond ASAP, to resolve the threat. Properly trained police are that group.
Acknowledged that many police are not properly trained.
SWAT doesn't seem all that well trained either if they can be used as weapons by angsty teens.
Until they figure out what is happening, if anything at all, the SWAT teams certainly stand the chance to do more harm than good. How about some recon first? Deaths are happening, and if nothing else innocent and completely bewildered people wind up with police guns pointed at their heads. Most of the time it's cleared up but the victims are left with "Oh sorry folks, someone called and said there was a hostage here."
I don't know what they could do with a mosque. I think it is a very valid assumption that someone could be in there with a gun and a very valid assumption it could be an asshole "pranking".
Be nice to see some harsh criminal penalties for people who SWAT and maybe some more advanced tech like cameras in the building they can plug into and see.
I'd also like to add that putting this kids face in the news is going to inspire copycats
why? I don't think this picture of his fat head makes him look cool
I think the third big problem is that the police will send a swat team after just an anonymous phone call.
Do they actually send a SWAT team? I just assumed that was the term but they actually just trigger a high priority multi officer response based on what they say.
Have you seen how cops arm themselves? That is just as much force as a swat team.
A swat team is a specially trained unit.
An uparmored tactical larp response.from.many officers is not that.
Your comment doesn’t really answer my question. Do they actually send a SWAT team?
I don’t really care about how they are armed. Is it called swatting because a SWAT team is deployed, or is it because that happened once or sometimes but it’s not always the case?
your baby gets flash banged in the face and someone tries to make this useless point
What point? I’m honestly trying to find out if it’s only considered swatting if an actual SWAT team is deployed or if that’s become the generic term.
There’s a term for this, called genericide. Like how Kleenex is used for all facial tissues or Qtips is used for all cotton swabs.
If all you want to do is find reasons to get offended and be combatant take your bullshit somewhere else.
I’m so sick of people like you on Lenny eroding actual conversation so you can mud sling and interpret everything in the worst possible light.
Sometimes a question is just a fucking question jackass!
Blocked for being the waste of space you are.
okay to answer your question it doesn't matter if it's swat or not
Swatting is a criminal harassment act of deceiving an emergency service into sending a police or emergency service response team to another person's address. [wikipedia]
Search for Swatting incidents and see how many people have been terrorized or killed on the basis of nothing but an anonymous phone call.
If you make the stakes high enough in the 911 call, absolutely. You don't want cops to waste time checking things out if a real hostage situation is playing out of whatever.
Can he please be charged with attempted murder for each person who was swatted?
But wouldnt that mean that the police would have to consider themselves to be murderers..
Yes but unironically. They will pull the trigger and murder an innocent person then blame the person who called 911.
911 is a formality for insurance claims, fires, and medical emergencies.
And possible self-harm moments. It's all about making sure that nobody is liable for letting things fall through the cracks and not about helping people to have better lives.
they'd probably be proud of it
I guess when they're in a country where mass shootings happen frequently, they respond as if they're going to get shot at.
Not that it justifies their actions all the time. Not even close.
But the guy was sending reports knowing that the chances of someone getting harmed were high, that's pretty much pushes him into terrorism territory tbh.
Filion also targeted high schools, historically Black colleges, mosques, FBI offices and FBI agents, and made threats to bomb military bases and the Pentagon, the state attorney’s office said in a court filing.
Gee, I wonder where that list of targets came from.
Have him fuck off to prison for the rest of his life because this sack of shit was trying to kill multiple people.
Throw the whole library at this fuck.
I mean yeah but is no one gonna mention that you have to live in a weird shithole where the special forces run your door in to shoot whoever because some weirdo can dial a phone number?
We, Americans, don't mention it because we know. Also, that is addressed in another part of the comments, I know the structure of the comments makes that hard to know.
What are we going to do about the police? Not a thing.
This would happen in most western countries.
You telling me they don't respond with force to threats of terrorist attacks or bombs?
They shouldn't respond with deadly force to the presumed victims of the attack!
They are responding to the scene of a bomb.
That's not something you discuss, that's something you dominate until the scene is safe.
You think it's acceptable for innocent people being threatened by a bomb to be harmed by the police who respond because they need to "dominate" the situation? What even is the point of the police when they hurt the people they're sent to protect?
In this hypothetical, they are there to find a bomb, and bomber. Collateral damage is to be minimized, obviously. Proper training is what's needed for that, which many police forces across the world lack.
A negotiator is not what you send to defuse a bomb or disable a terrorist.
I'm not sure I've ever even seen a member of our "SWAT" teams.
Punishment should fit the crime, it needs to be proportional for a lot of different reasons.
Hope this little shit gets a good chunk of prison time. Fuck racist assholes like him just trying to get innocent people killed for no reason.
It seems like this swatting thing could be used on anyone including CEO’s and politicians 🤔
Wouldn't work. They get a different justice system.
It has been happening to politicians already. Niki Haley had it happen to her family this past week. Now it's in the news and is a big deal.
My question is why do the police just randomly trust every call they get? I feel like there could be more safeguards in place on that side.
Because it's better to respond to a false positive than to ignore a false negative
Not if you’re the false positive that gets a grenade thrown in your baby’s crib.
And that's worse than ignoring a real threat?
"Sorry, we didn't send help because we thought this was a prank."
Use your brains.
I think it's possible that might just maybe a middle ground between going equipped for the third world war and ignoring the call.
To suggest otherwise is just accepting that the police are heavily militarized and I don't think that sensible.
Swatting is nowhere near as big a deal in other countries so clearly it's a solvable problem.
Swatting is nowhere near as big a deal in other countries so clearly it’s a solvable problem.
Why isn't as big a deal in other countries, though? Time to put on our critical thinking caps!
Is it because they have more measures in place to identify false threats? Does this also coincide with LE ignoring real threats?
Is it because their population doesn't see the value in swatting as much as other nations'? (i.e. do they have fewer incels?)
Is it something else?
It's because the police don't carry around assault rifles as a matter of course that's why.
If there is a hostage taker you want to negotiator not an attack force. If a negotiator goes to the property and it's a false flag no issue.
Sending in an armed force is literally the worst response in both real and false situations.
If there is a hostage taker you want to negotiator not an attack force. If a negotiator goes to the property and it’s a false flag no issue.
You clearly don't know the history behind why the SWAT teams were created. Educate yourself and then come back to us.
We have two big problems here, one that this person would make the phone calls, but you will never 100% fix human nature.
The biggest problem is that police will send a SWAT team after nothing but an anonymous phone call.
This is the part that gets me. It keeps happening and they think that it’s just fine.
They just love any excuse to pull out the toys.
When I was in high school I thought I was going to be a cop. Mostly because I was an unoriginal idiot and a friend wanted to be a cop. Went so far as to go through the explorers program where you hang out with cops and they show you stuff. You go on ride alongs. Spend a lot of time with cops.
As it happens about half the guys teaching this program were swat.
They were drooling for any excuse to suit up and kick down doors.
This was 20 years ago, at the time they'd tell you that 90% of officers never use their firearm on duty.
It colors their perception of any situation. Affects their decision making.
Could this be a prank? Maybe. But could I put on the armor and kick in a door? I mean they did call in a threat....
Yeah. I took a communications course from a former cop/hostage negotiator. It was actually pretty informative. There is a national program to teach police how to be effective and empathetic communicators trained to defuse high stakes situations.
They just don't teach it to most cops.
I overall agree with your points but I will say that the type of person who probably excels at a life-or-death job like swat is someone who lives for that adrenaline rush in the first place. The problem is in their over-activation, like an overly-active immune system.
I watched the Uvalde PBS Frontline documentary and what stood out to me is that all those cops were glorified ticket cops one-step removed from mall cops. The only two guys showcased to seem to know what they were doing and had a willingness to do so were the border patrol's equivalent to swat, BORTAC, who seemed professional and were the ones who entered the room first and ultimately eliminated the shooter.
One of the more unnerving "benign" interactions I've had with a cop was when the officer standing guard duty at the DMV subjected my wife and I to ten minutes of exposition about his various weapons and the effects they had on people while we waited for the line to move us out of conversation range. It's never been more clear to me that somebody desperately wants an excuse to do violence, to anybody he might be allowed to.
That guy almost needs to be reported as a danger. He knows all the weepon effects and has put himself in a position where he may be able to legally find out.
Boys with toys mentality. 🙄
They like it. It’s fun.
I mean the main reason they do that is they have to take it seriously. If they decided to ignore anonymous tips, then how many actual situations would they fail to prevent and handle.
Swatting is just taking advantage of the fact that they have no choice but to take it seriously.
That being said, if it's a place that gets swatted regularly or a place that's likely to be swatted due to various reasons they should have precautions in place with people they can trust in order to double check before acting, or at least be prepared to go in with their guns still holstered.
The problem isn't that the police respond, it's how they respond. The fact that the police themselves are so dangerous to the presumptive victim on whose behalf they're responding -- as tacitly acknowledged by "swatting" being treated as a serious crime going beyond mere misuse of police resources -- is the much bigger problem here. Frankly, going after swatters is at least 50% a misdirection tactic: an attempt to shift the blame away from the reckless police.
Patrick Tomlinson was swatted over 40 times in 2023 alone. It took WAY too many times before the police would simply knock on his door and ask him if everything was okay. You'd think after the 4th or 5th time they might figure it out.
https://www.wisn.com/article/milwaukee-science-fiction-writer-victim-of-swatting/40912738
https://www.insideedition.com/milwaukee-sci-fi-author-patrick-tomlinson-victim-of-yearslong-swatting-campaign-of-terror-82365
You'd think Patrick would have set up a big sign like "Hello, if you're swat, chill! It's just a prank bro! Just come in and have a beer." But no, so the guy basically resisted /s
The frustrating thing was that the police had him on a list. They KNEW the history. But half the time they still rolled up ready for war. It was a banner day when he was woken up at 3 in the morning only by two normal officers knocking on the door to let him know it happened again.
They don't need to send SWAT teams. They just do it for kicks.
Oh shut up with these intellectually dishonest arguments. You know there's a problem you know the police are overly aggressive to civilians but hey that's fine I guess and swat to every situation, come on.
This is about American police being way over militaryized. Swatting is not a problem in many other nations so it's a solvable issue but if we're just going to say it's acceptable then nothing will ever change.
You 100% misunderstood me or you meant to reply to someone else.
Huh? You.just want em to send Joe bob over for a chit chat? He'll unwind this whole bomb thingie-whatever
Yep, that's exactly what I want them to do. Unarmed.
Carry that thought. Then what?
Bomber blows up the neighborhood and Joe bob did fuck all.
To be clear, I'm not making light of swatting, and not accepting the culture of modern cops to go all tactical to every little thing. Injustices are happening, people are getting hurt.
I personally want to live in a country where a bomb threat is treated with maximum seriousness.
Are you suggesting that unarmed negotiators don't have an amazing success rate?
They are public servants who volunteer to do a dangerous job. Considering the way they treat innocent people now, yeah I'd much rather hire competent people who are willing to do the job properly.
I'd love to see a source on that. I've never heard negotiators are particularly effective.
"Amazing success rate" sounds like a 75% + de-escalation rate with the offender in custody and the bomb undetonated.
Nope. I don't have numbers. But I have seen competent, compassionate people talk desperate people out of some dire situations without harm to anyone. We should always start there. Every single time.
Cops on the other hand must be leashed.
I spoke to the tactical-happy nature of cops, and how that's a serious issue. I pretty specifically constrained my area of discussion to bomb threats. I acknowledge that for other issues of less terroristic nature, a negotiator is great. (Wellness checks, domestic issues, substance issues, etc)
Thanks for clarifying the anecdotal source though.
Crazy to see you get down voted for this.
Not taking the threat seriously is exactly how Uvalde started.
"popular" sentiment is FULLY ACAB, dearm, negotiate, community activist.
Life is not black and white. Sometimes a strong response is needed. I'm real fucking thankful police exist. Despite their massive failings.
On the other hand there are many many many calls that don't need an armed response, and a community negotiator is a better choice.
Ultimately policing in north America needs massive restructuring. Unnecessary violence and injustice are happening everyday, especially to minorities.
But the response to bomb threats is NOT the top of the list of changes.
By that logic, why not send the Marines?
Huh? The military isn't deployed domestically.
Do you mean the national guard? They don't train on residential bomb threats do they?
I want the most local, most able team to respond ASAP, to resolve the threat. Properly trained police are that group.
Acknowledged that many police are not properly trained.
SWAT doesn't seem all that well trained either if they can be used as weapons by angsty teens.
Until they figure out what is happening, if anything at all, the SWAT teams certainly stand the chance to do more harm than good. How about some recon first? Deaths are happening, and if nothing else innocent and completely bewildered people wind up with police guns pointed at their heads. Most of the time it's cleared up but the victims are left with "Oh sorry folks, someone called and said there was a hostage here."
I don't know what they could do with a mosque. I think it is a very valid assumption that someone could be in there with a gun and a very valid assumption it could be an asshole "pranking".
Be nice to see some harsh criminal penalties for people who SWAT and maybe some more advanced tech like cameras in the building they can plug into and see.
I'd also like to add that putting this kids face in the news is going to inspire copycats
why? I don't think this picture of his fat head makes him look cool
I think the third big problem is that the police will send a swat team after just an anonymous phone call.
Do they actually send a SWAT team? I just assumed that was the term but they actually just trigger a high priority multi officer response based on what they say.
Have you seen how cops arm themselves? That is just as much force as a swat team.
A swat team is a specially trained unit.
An uparmored tactical larp response.from.many officers is not that.
Your comment doesn’t really answer my question. Do they actually send a SWAT team?
I don’t really care about how they are armed. Is it called swatting because a SWAT team is deployed, or is it because that happened once or sometimes but it’s not always the case?
your baby gets flash banged in the face and someone tries to make this useless point
What point? I’m honestly trying to find out if it’s only considered swatting if an actual SWAT team is deployed or if that’s become the generic term.
There’s a term for this, called genericide. Like how Kleenex is used for all facial tissues or Qtips is used for all cotton swabs.
If all you want to do is find reasons to get offended and be combatant take your bullshit somewhere else.
I’m so sick of people like you on Lenny eroding actual conversation so you can mud sling and interpret everything in the worst possible light.
Sometimes a question is just a fucking question jackass!
Blocked for being the waste of space you are.
okay to answer your question it doesn't matter if it's swat or not
Search for Swatting incidents and see how many people have been terrorized or killed on the basis of nothing but an anonymous phone call.
If you make the stakes high enough in the 911 call, absolutely. You don't want cops to waste time checking things out if a real hostage situation is playing out of whatever.
Can he please be charged with attempted murder for each person who was swatted?
But wouldnt that mean that the police would have to consider themselves to be murderers..
Yes but unironically. They will pull the trigger and murder an innocent person then blame the person who called 911.
911 is a formality for insurance claims, fires, and medical emergencies.
And possible self-harm moments. It's all about making sure that nobody is liable for letting things fall through the cracks and not about helping people to have better lives.
they'd probably be proud of it
I guess when they're in a country where mass shootings happen frequently, they respond as if they're going to get shot at. Not that it justifies their actions all the time. Not even close. But the guy was sending reports knowing that the chances of someone getting harmed were high, that's pretty much pushes him into terrorism territory tbh.
Gee, I wonder where that list of targets came from.
Have him fuck off to prison for the rest of his life because this sack of shit was trying to kill multiple people.
Throw the whole library at this fuck.
I mean yeah but is no one gonna mention that you have to live in a weird shithole where the special forces run your door in to shoot whoever because some weirdo can dial a phone number?
We, Americans, don't mention it because we know. Also, that is addressed in another part of the comments, I know the structure of the comments makes that hard to know.
What are we going to do about the police? Not a thing.
This would happen in most western countries.
You telling me they don't respond with force to threats of terrorist attacks or bombs?
They shouldn't respond with deadly force to the presumed victims of the attack!
They are responding to the scene of a bomb.
That's not something you discuss, that's something you dominate until the scene is safe.
You think it's acceptable for innocent people being threatened by a bomb to be harmed by the police who respond because they need to "dominate" the situation? What even is the point of the police when they hurt the people they're sent to protect?
In this hypothetical, they are there to find a bomb, and bomber. Collateral damage is to be minimized, obviously. Proper training is what's needed for that, which many police forces across the world lack.
A negotiator is not what you send to defuse a bomb or disable a terrorist.
I'm not sure I've ever even seen a member of our "SWAT" teams.
Punishment should fit the crime, it needs to be proportional for a lot of different reasons.
Hope this little shit gets a good chunk of prison time. Fuck racist assholes like him just trying to get innocent people killed for no reason.
It seems like this swatting thing could be used on anyone including CEO’s and politicians 🤔
Wouldn't work. They get a different justice system.
It has been happening to politicians already. Niki Haley had it happen to her family this past week. Now it's in the news and is a big deal.
My question is why do the police just randomly trust every call they get? I feel like there could be more safeguards in place on that side.
Because it's better to respond to a false positive than to ignore a false negative
Not if you’re the false positive that gets a grenade thrown in your baby’s crib.
And that's worse than ignoring a real threat?
"Sorry, we didn't send help because we thought this was a prank."
Use your brains.
I think it's possible that might just maybe a middle ground between going equipped for the third world war and ignoring the call.
To suggest otherwise is just accepting that the police are heavily militarized and I don't think that sensible.
Swatting is nowhere near as big a deal in other countries so clearly it's a solvable problem.
Why isn't as big a deal in other countries, though? Time to put on our critical thinking caps!
Is it because they have more measures in place to identify false threats? Does this also coincide with LE ignoring real threats?
Is it because their population doesn't see the value in swatting as much as other nations'? (i.e. do they have fewer incels?)
Is it something else?
It's because the police don't carry around assault rifles as a matter of course that's why.
If there is a hostage taker you want to negotiator not an attack force. If a negotiator goes to the property and it's a false flag no issue.
Sending in an armed force is literally the worst response in both real and false situations.
You clearly don't know the history behind why the SWAT teams were created. Educate yourself and then come back to us.
Yeah, the web is dead.
Thanks, bootcrap and recrapt.
Interesting use of non breaking spaces, I wonder why...
An
will be visible in your comment if you define it as code.As for the post, it should be edited to remove any visible ones.
Punishment rarely stops crime. We need to be proactive.
Guess the CNN really likes their broken non-breaking spaces...
I'm not normally as fan of the electric chair, but....
Nope, still barbaric. And for children? Even worse.
Well, then your opinion is fickle... As someone normally opposed to the electric chair, I continue to be opposed to it in this instance.
It's a fair punishment for pedophiles.