I will vote for Biden if he ends his support for genocide. That's it. That's all I need to vote for him. I just want that one thing, even after he let me down by breaking the rail strike and continuing brutal anti-immigration and doing nothing abiut over policing and expanding American oil and stopping peace negotiations in Ukraine.
Just this one thing.
If that's too much to ask, he won't get my vote.
Unfortunately the alternative is a literal wannabe-dictator. By not voting, you’re basically helping Trump.
>By not voting, you’re basically helping Trump.
only a vote for trump helps trump
As a non American, seeing people claim that not voting doesn't help republicans is fucking hilarious. You'd think that after Trump winning in 2016 and stacking the supreme court, directly being the cause of abortion being outlawed in red states in the fucking 21st century (along with a host of other horrifying things), would make people actually fucking vote. But no here we are. Honestly I really hope you all get the government you want, but the longer I read politics posts on Lemmy the more I'm aghast at people who'd rather let it all burn down than aim for incremental positive change.
Apologies for any bad English, just putting my thoughts out there.
I wonder why republicans spend so much time trying to get people not to vote. Purging rolls, being against mail in voting, closing polling stations, etc. Seems dumb given that people not voting doesn’t help them.
Oh well. You probably know more about elections than them. Glad we have an expert in the house.
if you have something to say, say it. what I said was true.
I think my meaning was quite clear. You are a fool if you think suppressing the vote doesn’t help republicans. They’ve bet everything knowing that people not voting is good for them.
So congrats, you are helping elect our new fascist overlords by not voting for the unpalatable, but not fascist, dude that is on offer. It sucks, but grow the fuck up. Trump winning is going to be a disaster for literally everyone, including Palestinians.
I'm going to probably be voting for cornel west, but I could still be won back by Jill Stein.
neither of those votes help Trump
Cool.
Great way to throw away a vote against fascism voting for candidates with literally zero chance of winning.
Look up why the Nazis came to power sometime. Part of it was that people refused to rally around a single countervailing force. Biden is the countervailing force that has a chance of winning. Trump is literally opening quoting Nazis at this point and people aren’t fucking alarmed. smh
As a sincere question, what do you think Trump is going to do that is better than what Biden is going to do when it comes to the genocide in Gaza?
Because regardless of who you vote for or who you want to win, it will either be Biden or Trump, unless one of them dies or becomes invalidated. So, how will Trump be better for the Palestinians than Biden will be?
They won't bother answering. It's fucking pathetic
Unfortunately, center right wing democrats have been screaming this at the top of their lungs for so long, young people no longer care.
They will not vote blue no matter who, and you yelling whatever malarkey you’re on about is kind of pathetic.
Biden needs to fundamentally change a few things if he wants to get the support of young people. Supporting genocide is not going to win him the election. Not only does Biden support the genocide, he used his authority to give them more weapons and money without having to ask Congress. This isn’t going to fly with young people. And Biden needs young voters to win this election.
I get it that you’ve been voting blue no matter who your whole life and you think younger voters need to do the same thing.
But your way of thinking is a relic.
Man these libs suuuuure hate when you question their doctrine huh?
Here's a question for the one or two thinkers in this thread. I don't want replies, because replies will carry with them egos and snark for the peanut gallery. These questions are for you, (and no-comprendo's). Questions i had rolling around in my liberal brain before i transitioned to full troll or whatever liberals call leftists these days, questions that take time and reflection to answer.
If the Democrats only campaign to stop Republicans, but DON'T STOP the Republicans (only campaign to stop them), then when do we dem voters get to vote to help ourselves? Is there a timeline?
It has been 12 years of presidents, 12 long years of waiting, tightening our belts, "fighting for democracy". Why does it seem like the voters are the only ones interested in preserving it?
The DGA and the HRC campaign both have paper trails showing they've attempted to elevate extremism in the Republican party. Considering this is still a tactic in use, here's the million dollar question:
If the Democratic party could, would they keep running against a candidate like Trump every single election in the future?
Edit: thank you, those of you who are thinking. We need more people out there like you doing that
It has been 12 years of presidents, 12 long years of waiting, tightening our belts, "fighting for democracy". Why does it seem like the voters are the only ones interested in preserving it?
So you were happy with first term Obama but not second term Obama?
Am I reading this right?
Lol you're right. I was on a roll and added a whole term, oops! Let's pretend i meant to include bidens second term, which makes me right and not wrong
You were happy with second term Obama?
Indeed, I even voted for Obama second term. Was i as happy with him as the first time? Nah, but i was still a registered dem back then
Was it Clinton or Biden that caused you to turn your back to them?
I got into politics more deeply than ever, going door to door for bernie back in '16. The verdict by the judge in 17 saying the DNC is a private entity caused me to no longer believe in the Dem's primary process. The way HRC's campaign wanted to control both her and trump coverage in the media, the podesta emails, and that whole related scandal really put a beat down on my whole belief system.
So i kept reading and thinking and adjusting my political worldview and here i am, arguing it on a small forum on the web (or cynically working tirelessly to helpTrump win, depending on your pov)
Bernie didn’t have a chance to win, that’s why Trump desperately wanted to run against him.
He would have been great, but had no chance pulling in enough votes.
Bernie didn’t have a chance to win
The veracity of this comment aside, of course he didn't have a chance, the DNC hand-selected Hillary.
Why did you bring it up instead of what i brought up, the verdict in '17 saying the primaries were rigged?
Hillary won the primaries in 2016.
Biden win them in 2020 even though Trump desperately wanted to run against Bernie.
I think you’re seeing conspiracies where there aren’t any.
when he carried on bush's war crimes, i was done with him. i thought executive orders would be undone, not expanded.
i couldn't even make it to obama's second term.
close gitmo
universal healthcare
student debt forgiveness
all lies.
Oh yeah, but you can't overestimate how much prop we get shoved down our throats. Kinda like McDs you don't realize how shit it is for your system until you stop eating it daily
i don't judge you for it, not really. i have friends who voted for hillary, and friends who voted for biden, and, hell, i voted for shapiro for AG ***AND*** governor even though i thought his AG term made him out to be a liar and a cop.
i'm not voting for him for president, though. fuck that.
I voted for Biden to stop fascism and now he's a genocide collaborator! Would Trump be worse? Maybe - it's unclear, because at least Democrats would oppose Trump. Trump saw the largest protest movement in American history, Trump inspires Democrats to actually ask for more, Trump will further isolate America (and Israel) geopolitically, it's hard to predict.
I'm not voting for him, I'm actually voting Democrat down ticket, but if he wins it's not the end of the world. It's an opportunity.
In the meantime? Withholding my vote is literally the only way I can exert pressure on Biden. I have a moral obligation to oppose genocide. I won't vote for it. If he's smart he'll reverse course on Israel to save his campaign and this will all be moot. Why is Biden helping Trump win?
You don't need to exert pressure on Biden. You need to help push the entire system back to the left. When Democrats in general are in government, it allows more room for further left candidates. Just like how electing Republicans made room for the Tea Party and the MAGA crazies. If the window had been more toward the left, they'd have been outside the Republican party.
I'm voting Democrat down ticket. I'm just not voting for genocide Joe.
That's the only way I can exert any pressure on him, and I don't have to wait a year for that pressure to manifest. If enough Democrats had the courage to stand up to Biden he'd be forced to change his policies. Instead, you are all choosing to be complicit in genocide.
Not voting is a valid choice, one that says you're okay with either candidate winning. And that is being complicit with genocide. If you're not okay with that, vote.
If you don't want to wait a year, you can call, write, protest, and donate to groups to do those things on your behalf. But to throw away your vote is incredibly short-sighted.
I'm voting for Democrats down ticket, hardly throwing it away. I'm just not voting for any pro-genocide candidates.
And if Biden is smart, he'll see how much support he's losing and change his policy towards Israel.
Biden is an empty suit. If the party tells him to change, he'll change.
Alternatively, Trump wins and everything gets even shittier, and we lose even the possibility for things to get better.
I like how you found yourself being down voted the moment you acknowledged what a piss poor excuse for "Democracy" this is.
Yup. But in the choice of who to vote for president, there's the establishment candidate, or the "dictator for a day" candidate. Or there's not voting, which is saying "yes, either of those are okay". One of those things has the chance of making progress, and it should be obvious.
What fucking progress my guy? Look around.
Insulin prices are lower now, a bunch of student loans are being forgiven. I know it's not the single payer collectivism we'd all like but to say it's not progress at all is a bit hyperbolic.
If we've progressed over the last 20 years then what are you panicking about? You can't tell me we've made progress while also telling me our Democracy is less secure than it was 20 years ago.
And the Party would tell him to change if the Party knew they'd lose the presidency.
Do you think the Party would rather Trump win than stop supporting Israel? I doubt that.
They know they're not going to lose on this issue, though, because anyone who seriously evaluates the election has come to the same conclusion that I already said: a Trump victory is the worst outcome. Again, you'll have to put pressure on the party through other means, just one of which is electing more leftist downballot candidates.
They may actually lose on this issue. Democrats rely pretty heavily on younger voters and a lot of the really young voters, Zoomers, are making this a do or die issue, even though both of our only two parties with any chance of winning will support the genocide regardless.
They know they’re not going to lose on this issue, though, because anyone who seriously evaluates the election has come to the same conclusion that I already said: a Trump victory is the worst outcome.
Okay, so my vote is irrelevant, got it. I've asked elsewhere and I'll ask it here: why are you crawling up my dick about it? If my presidential vote doesn't matter because "they're not going to lose on this issue" then I can comfortably just leave that spot blank.
Again, you’ll have to put pressure on the party through other means, just one of which is electing more leftist downballot candidates.
Which I'm doing.
Exactly these people talk out of both sides of their mouths. On the one hand we don't matter, on the other we're responsible for HRC losing in 2016. It's so fucking pathetic.
I don’t understand why people think the democrats losing to someone farther right would make them move left. Doesn’t it make more sense they’d move to the right since that’s what more voters wanted?
So you admit Democrats are just fascist light? Sounds like the fight is over then. We lost.
That’s not what I said. Moderate dems need to lose to progressives and not to conservatives to move the party left.
It'll never happen. Too many primary voters are specifically out to fuck over leftist and progressives. Then they turn around and cry foul when we refuse to show up in the general. Fuck them.
The solution to our choices being a centrist and a literal fascist isn't to push the Overton window even further right. Such thinking is beyond naive.
What centrist? All I see are two fascists, because genocide sure as fuck isn't centrist.
You don't have to be fascist to be genocidal. The two just tend to overlap.
Bro you understand Biden isn't president of Israel right? This tired ass take that he somehow sets policy there shows how immature and uninformed you are.
I really do wonder how old the person you're commenting to is. It's very easy to be idealistic when you're young and lack experience. Eventually you learn that you're basically the same as the Freedom Caucus of the left if you're acting that way, refusing to compromise and make any positive changes whatsoever.
Old enough to have already gone through this exact song and dance routine before with Obama. "We just need to wait until the primaries to nominate a progressive, then we can finally move this Party to the left!" I saw how that turned out. The Party won't allow it.
Yet even still, I voted for Biden to stop fascism.
And now he's funding a genocide.
Idealism is voting blue no matter who and expecting them to stop taking advantage of you. Why should they? You are a loyal dog and will keep coming home no matter how hard they beat you.
I just want this one thing. My red line. I'll let Biden break strikes and deport refugees and round people into prisons and expand oil drilling, I'll let him do every fucking thing he promised he wouldn't, and all he has to do is oppose genocide. It's entirely within his power to do this.
This is the only leverage I have. I have a moral obligation to use it and so do you. By voting for genocide you are responsible for it.
Israel is the 51st state. This idea that Israel is a strong independent state that doesn't need the empire is a joke, they're wholly dependent on the US. When Reagan told Israel to back off of attacking the PLO in Lebanon, they did. Israel's power comes from its untouchable status.
And it gets that status because it's the only democracy in the middleeast and surrounded by enemies.
"democracy"
Why are you putting in quotes? It's uncontroversially defined as a "flawed democracy" by political science, same as the United States.
it's not a democracy at all. it systematically disenfranchises the Palestinian people in its borders.
Okay, what? That's doesn't make it not a democracy. America is and was a Democracy and only white men land owners could vote for like a century. You don't like its domestic policy so the entire field of political science is wrong, and it's not a democracy? Wow you have such big brain.
a democracy lets the demos rule. systematically excluding the demos from participation disqualifies you as a democracy. qed.
Then say flawed democracy instead of trying to hold it up like some beacon of hope. It's not. It's a trash country run by trash people just like the United States.
Okay well in the entirety of the middle east it is the only country that governs by even a pretense of consent of the people. Every other state in the region is some form of authoritarian theocracy, not even close to democracy. Only the former has any hope of granting long term human rights.
none of those states are legitimate, including Israel.
He will go even harder on "USA needs to support Israel defending God's promised land".
Remember he is the one who moved the US embassy to support Netanyahu's agenda.
THIS!!! Omg this! I wish I could agree more!
I am astounded by how polarized the younger generation is. It’s all, or nothing with them and they can’t see how badly that is going to fuck us up.
Hey kids….
LIFE EXISTS WITHIN THE GREY AREA. There’s a thing called NUANCE.
Deciding to not vote for THE ONE PERION CAPABLE OF KEEPING AMERICA FROM BEING A DICTATORSHIP because of a single issue… is flat-out FUCKING STUPID.
Get your heads out of your ass!
It's not one issue buddy. We've had lots of issues with Biden. You're just so far into denial you're not hearing us.
Yeah, every president has a lot of issues. You're just demonstrating that you don't care about electing a dictator.
So you admit what you just said is a lie? You knew all along we didn't have just one issue with Biden but you're out here saying it because you're a liar? Great. Glad we cleared that up.
Go ahead and list the issues you think would be worse than what Trump has done, and promises yet to do.
We’ll all wait here.
Of course Biden wouldn't be worse than Trump. I don't care? You'll have to do better than that if you want my vote. Millions of people had that opportunity in the 2020 primaries and they chose to vote for a procorporate piece of trash. Fuck those people. If they think they can ignore us in the primaries then we'll ignore their shit candidate in the general. Don't like it? That's how democracy works.
You’re not getting how this works.
You’re not voting for Biden? YOU’RE GETTING TRUMP.
You don’t get to pretend that not voting means you nothing will happen. Right now- you either drink the piss, or you eat the shit. You don’t get to chose neither.
So either move to another country, or pick one.
You don’t get to chose neither.
Right, my choice was made for me by selfish pieces of shit in the 2020 primaries who chose a procorporate trash candidate. They can go fuck themselves.
Trump did say what he would have done, but given it’s Trump he’d probably not do what he said:
Trump criticized Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, lauded Hezbollah militants as “very smart” and sought political gain from the attacks that killed 1,200 people by claiming that if the last election was not “rigged,” he’d be the American president and they’d never have happened.
With Biden, Democrats are mostly falling in line behind the genocide. It's a bipartisan genocide, with even Bernie being unwilling to support a ceasefire. With Trump, on the other hand, Democrats would reverse course and actually support a ceasefire to obstruct Trump.
-but that's all speculation. I don't know, for sure, that it would happen that way. What I do know is I won't vote for genocide, and I will withhold my vote unless Biden changes his policy on Israel. I won't vote for Trump, I'll even vote Dem down ticket, but I won't vote for genocide.
You, on the other hand, are literally voting for genocide if you support Biden. You just want to absolve yourself of that moral responsibility.
This is the most naive comment I've ever seen in my damn life.
"When you grow up sweatie you'll understand you need to vote for genocide to stop fascism." 🤡
We must always always always vote for the turd in every election, for if the turd doesn't win we'll be stuck with turd plus vomit.
You just want to absolve yourself of that moral responsibility.
That's exactly what you are doing. You're focusing on this one issue, retreating yourself from the binary decision because neither options stands for what you (or I, or morality) would prefer. Completely ignoring that withdrawing from the choice plays into the hand of the infinitely worse candidate. So by not choosing, you do nothing to stop the situation in Gaza, but might actually make things a lot worse for people all over.
You can virtue signal that you did not compromise on your believes, while actually helping your country make a worse place.
You’re focusing on this one issue
We've raised lots of issues. The amounts of the stimulus checks, the way he fucked us over with the BBB, the way he negotiated down for student loan forgiveness, for fucking over the rail workers. The list goes on. Every time we mention something we get shut down. For someone who wants our votes so badly you have a really odd way of showing it.
Now imagine all of that, with a splash of military enforced laws, harder anti-LGBTQ+ laws, defunding the EPA, pulling out of many international agreements, abortion in ANY circumstance being a criminal act….
Read up on his plans before you do a thing stupid like… NOT voting.
The stupid thing was to vote for Joe Biden in the 2020 primaries. Those people can go fuck themselves.
Ahhh… so you’re a trumper.
I voted for Obama twice and Biden once. Call me whatever you want. At the end of the day, do you need my vote or not? If you want it I've given you the terms: don't elect procorporate trash in the primaries.
So…. You’re fine with Trump then? Thats what you’re saying.
I'm fine with the people who voted for Biden in the 2020 primaries electing him all by themselves in 2024. They fucked over my interests in the primaries so they can go fuck themselves in the general.
Like I said, there are so many other issues that Biden has betrayed me on. This is just the red line. Here and no further.
You will let Biden do anything he wants to you and beg for more, just to stop Trump. It's revolting.
If enough Democrats pressured Biden to endorse a ceasefire by withholding their votes, he would! He's a politician. That's what politicians do. This is our only leverage! This is all we can do to stop the genocide, and I really think Biden would reconsider if it looked bad enough.
Why would anyone endorse a ceasefire? Hamas is firing more rockets at Israel just today.
A ceasefire means both sides stop. If you want Hamas to stop firing rockets, you want a ceasefire.
Good job playing into the hands of Zionists, they need you in order to continue the genocide.
This is dumb and self-righteous. It'll be 100 times worse with Trump and we all know this.
We slide farther to the right with each passing year regardless of which party wins. You all seem fine with the direction so we're just upping the timeline. If you want to go in a different direction tell Joe Biden to stop fucking over voters he's depending on. And tell anyone who voted for Biden in the 2020 primaries they're a fucking asshole.
It’ll be 100 times worse with Trump and we all know this.
Really? Why not a million times? A billion!
🤡
I thank god I'm not this illiterate. What do you think Trump's policy is gonna be? He caters to Republicans who WANT funding to Israel. He pushed the Overton window. What do you think he's gonna do? Is he gonna weave them baskets and pick them flowers? 🤔
I think he's going to be obstructed by Democrats, who I am voting for down ticket. I think he's going to ruin Israel's relations with the rest of the world and turn it into a pariah state. I think he's going to overextend himself and fail. I think he's a fat old man and might just die lol
Posting clown emojis just makes you look like a clown. Use your words.
Because the population in Iran is roughly 100 times the population in Palestine.
I don't think we'll have to wait for Trump to see war with Iran.
I guess we'll see what the next 9 months brings.
I'm pretty sure Iran is actively and deliberately pressing the US and its allies to engage in a more widespread war by encouraging and provisioning the Houthis in their current terrorism against unaligned trade ships in the Red Sea.
Kind of like how the US is providing unneeded military aid to Israel. Encourages Israel to "go for it" against their enemies. Two sides of a coin, but with Iran being more deliberate in wanting war because Israel is vastly outnumbered by its neighbors and they think they can eradicate it.
The US doesn't want to eradicate the Palestinians; they just don't care enough about the people stop it. The Iranians want to eradicate the Israelis.
Israel is actively and deliberately pressing all of its neighbors to engage in a more widespread war by constantly bombing them and assassinating their officials.
You’re not only supporting the same genocide with a vote for Trump, you’re also supporting all the bigotry, oppression, misogyny, racism, and cowardice that goes along with it.
And make no mistake- your stubborn refusal to vote against a tyrant over a single issue is what allows said tyrant to rule America.
We WILL blame you if Trump wins.
But why did this particular flare up in the Palestine-Israel conflict be the hill you'll die on? Why, for example, didn't Bidens support for the Saudis against the Houthis, which is much worse by most standards, put you off?
Secondly: how do you think you're helping the Palestinians by helping to replace Biden with Trump?
It was Biden going around Congress to give Israel more bombs blow up civilians that really set me off. He didn't do that for Saudi, he didn't do it for Ukraine, and he certainly doesn't do shit like that for Americans who need him to bypass Congress.
Second, I don't think Trump will be any better or worse than Biden on Palestine. That's why I'm not voting for him.
But I will not vote for genocide. I'd rather die.
(and I might, since I'm a trans communist in a red state)
Are you sure Trump won't be worse on Palestine? He was doing their diplomatic legwork all through his term. Moved the embassy to cement Israel's claim over Jerusalem.
Biden went around congress and stopped weapon sales to Saudi Arabia thus stopping their genocide in Yemen.
Trump actually vetoed congress on the same issue so the genocide could continue.
Effectively, by refusing to stop Trump to spite Biden, you are choosing for two genocides instead of one. On top of all the other things.
@nonailsleft@queermunist gosh, the trolley problem isnt contrived at all, its actually about fucking genocide and the 2-party system.
Well in the real worreldd, US voters are too weak to fix a broken democratic system. This should be addressed by, best chance, taking over the dnc from within and moving towards a supermajority that supports a better system.
But today, tomorrow,... Untill that is fixed: the trolley problem is real. To give someone else control of the trolley does nothing to fix the systemic problem. You might think so. Your gut tells you letting things explode might wake up enough people to start a revolution. But history shows it doesn't.
You can vote to limit genocide and work towards fixing the system, without compromising the other
Your vote lends credibility and mandate to the regime. Your vote says "yes please, I want more of this". They don't care that you are actually voting to minimize the damage, they only care that they can do anything they want to you and you'll beg for more just to stop Trump.
Like I said, if this is a trolley problem then we have to derail the trolley.
Yup. Ending genocide is not on the ballot. Keeping American democracy on life support is on the ballot. And if we lose it because of this childish bullshit, abstainers in 2023 are to blame. You're as useless as the Dem voters we're already desperately trying to activate off the couch. Worst part is you're doing it on purpose. You're voting for Trump. It doesn't matter how you feel. This is a fact. We're hanging on by a thread and you're whining to your own comrades about your feelings and discomfort. Vote far left down ballot. Elect a democratic president. Otherwise fuck yourself, your words mean literally nothing when you're hauled off to camp from your family or put on the wall. Thanks for your opinions.
Beautifully said my friend!
Vote for this one person to save democracy or go fuck yourself.
Sounds like a really healthy democracy you've got there. 🙄
Anyway, the reason we're in this position is because everyone who voted for Biden in the 2020 primaries is a complete asshole who intentionally fucked over progressive and leftist efforts. Now they're mad we won't show up for him in the general? Get fucked.
Nobody is saying that we have a healthy democracy. In fact, just the opposite: they are pointing out that we do not and that is why we are on such thin ice.
And yet, when it came time to select the Democrat nominee millions of people were like "I know we're on thin ice but I'm still going to vote for the procorporate trash candidate."
People who voted for Biden in the primaries are fucking assholes.
That's more of a DNC decision. It's traditional for both parties to run their incumbent candidate because the incumbent usually wins.
And did win.
Bernie was buy-and-large the most popular candidate in 2016. Mainstream media all but refused to put him on air(He was bad for business, i.e. for millionaires/billionaire executives). The DNC completely fucked us when they still elected to put Hillary on the ballot; even with the GOP colluding with the FBI to investigate her, whether or not that was legitimate is irrelevant. The DNC fucked us. And yet... Like others have said, our democracy is currently so fragile that we have no real other choice other than to vote D straight down the ballot.
The only other possible option would be for a major of the country to write-in the same person in the primary election and then for that person to register as an official candidate and then run in the general election and win. The vast majority of states require a candidate to be registered for them to be a write-in. And good fucking luck convincing a majority of this country to agree on one person. Personally, if that were to happen I would proudly write-in Jon Stewart.
Biden hasn't been that bad. Not bad enough to risk never getting to vote again.
Did you just admit the DNC primaries are rigged?
First time?
A) The incumbent party always runs the sitting president if they are eligible for another term. That's not rigging, it's literally how it works.
B) Yes, the DNC rigs the primaries. Did you already forget when the DNC forced Hillary on us in 2016? Hell, if you're asking that question than you obviously already forgot 2016, so of course you don't even remember 2020.
C) For someone with such strong opinions, you don't seem to know much about the process. Seriously, is this your first time paying attention? Or is this your first time as an eligible voter?
Buddy I was talking about the 2020 primaries. You misread my comment.
Who said they're not. But that has nothing to do with you choosing to elect Trump. That's just you being a bad loser pathetic whiney bitch.
Lol. Like all the bad loser pathetic whiney bitches who were big mad when we didn't show up for Hillary? Stop voting for procorporate trash in the primaries.
Call me whatever you want. If you don't need my vote ignore me. If you need my vote then fucking pay attention.
In all of your comments, I've yet to see you propose a solution to prevent the end of our democracy. Just complaining it's not enough of a democracy.
How does letting Trump get elected get you closer to your goals, not further?
It's not my responsibility to propose a solution to prevent the end of democracy. It's the responsibility of everyone who voted for Joe Biden in the 2020 primaries why they're such pieces of shit.
So you really are just here to whine and make a point of detracting people from stopping Trump's victory. You really do suck. I felt bad for being a dick. But you're worthless and selfish.
But you’re worthless and selfish.
No I'm not. That's the point. There were reasonable compromises to be made during the 2020 primaries. Those compromises were intentionally rejected by people who are now angry that I won't show up to vote. People who voted for Biden in the 2020 primaries are worthless and selfish.
When will we have a choice? Tell me how many more times I'm morally obligated to vote for your piece of shit candidate?
It doesn’t fucking matter. You’re voting for your life and the lives of others. This isn’t a single issue election. Get that through your fucking head.
If that's true then the people who voted for Biden in the 2020 primaries are absolute pieces of shit. Fuck them for fucking over progressive and leftist efforts.
You don't even use logic. Those concepts have no relationship. You're just an idiot with too much time online. You even go to DSA protests? Activism? You're nothing.
Buddy, I have phone banked, canvassed, donated and voted.
You’re nothing.
Then you don't need my vote and you can just ignore me.
No. I will not put up with this for 48 more years.
Correct. Because this won't be here.
Good.
People had a choice in the 2020 primaries and they chose procorporate trash Joe Biden. That's on them for picking a shit candidate. Not me.
It’s totally on you. And you can trust me on this- YOU will be blamed if Trump wins.
I do not give a fuck. What are you not understanding here? What did you people not fucking get in 2016? Who the fuck thought it was a good idea to test us again by voting for Joe fucking Biden in the 2020 primaries. Fuck all of those people. They actively fought us and proved we're not on the same side.
Wah wah wah wah this is hard and didn't go my way so I'm gonna whine and fuck everyone even harder, my fellow victims included. So we should get sent to the fucking chamber and women made breeding machines bc you're a whiney bitch. If you're not gonna help, go get hit by a bus instead of bringing the rest of us down. You're disgusting and sad.
Welcome to Democracy. You aren't entitled to my vote. If you need it then make better choices in the primaries. If you don't need my vote continue voting for procorporate trash and then crying when they lose in the general election.
"democracy is on life support".. yeah.. didn't say this was healthy. Thanks for demonstrating the problem with binary zero sum game thinking. You're not grounded in reality if you can't see we're on life support. You don't give a dying person meth and have them run a marathon. You hold on for dear life.
And fwiw wrt primaries... I voted against him. I voted against Hillary. I even voted against Pelosi for being too conservative. You're fighting your comrades and the movement and that's why you're in the wrong and you don't mean anything. Your politics and intellectualism mean nothing with the barrel of a gun between your eyes. Get your head out of your ass and vote against fascism. Or be a baby and have my friends and family killed in a few years. But I should get fucked. Thanks comrade. I'll think about this comment looking out the window of the train at my kid for the last time. I'll forever remember your vote, when I work to death in that mine, picturing my child screaming and crying the last time they see me.
You should've gotten your head out of your ass and voted for someone better in the 2020 primaries. You voted for Biden. I'm not responsible for how your garbage candidate performs in the general.
Also, I'm not voting for Trump! I'm even voting left down ballot, I'm just not voting for Biden specifically.
If Trump wins and Democrats control both chambers, what the hell can he even do? Bloviate? I guess maybe he'll do some executive orders that the 6-3 Court will uphold, but if Democrats aren't worthless cowards they'll just refuse to enforce his orders and it won't matter anyway.
Because of a single issue- I will vote for Trump who also supports genocide, but in addition- supports racism, bigotry, misogyny, and cowardice.
There's lots of other issues. You just weren't paying attention to what people have been saying.
Go ahead and list the issues you have with Biden that would be worse than the issues you’d have with Trump. Keep in mind, that the orange-utan has threatened to use the military once in power to keep people like you in line. Also worth mentioning, he plans on strengthening the abortion ban, more oppression of the LGBTQ+ and withdrawing from climate agreements.
So please. Enlighten us on how your single-issue is worse than dealing with a tyrant.
You can accept the truth of this, or you can pout and hold on to your vote, but I’ll warn you than the latter is a vote for Trump no matter how you try and justify it.
Do the right thing.
So please. Enlighten us on how your single-issue is worse than dealing with a tyrant.
We've raised a lot of issues with Biden. You just haven't been paying attention.
Do the right thing.
Millions of people had the opportunity to do the right thing in the 2020 primaries and instead they voted for procorporate trash Joe Biden. Fuck those people.
I say again;
Go ahead and list the issues you have with Biden that would be worse than the issues you’d have with Trump. Keep in mind, that the orange-utan has threatened to use the military once in power to keep people like you in line. Also worth mentioning, he plans on strengthening the abortion ban, more oppression of the LGBTQ+ and withdrawing from climate agreements.
Know what? Nevermind. I don’t want to hear from you anymore.
I don’t want to hear from you anymore.
You never did.
Look at this closely people.This is the misinformation campaign for the election.
Both sides support this war, this stance that a republican would do anything different is laughable.
This is the rhetoric that will be blasted all around social media creating a bullshit narrative of a rational liberal "taking the high ground" and encouraging others to follow by voting blue for everyone but Joe Biden.
I've been seeing a lot of this lately and I agree, it definitely feels like an astroturf campaign.
Most single issue voters are focused on domestic issues such as abortion or the economy. And you would think that someone who cares so much about Israel would also be worried about other aspects of foreign policy such as Ukraine.
The whole premise is ridiculous. And I think it speaks to Biden's success as a president that this is the best campaign they can come up with.
Look at this closely people.This is the misinformation campaign for the election.
I dunno, is it that crazy to think the venn diagram of liberal voters and people that hate genocide are a near-perfect circle?
Biden doing an end-around Congress to send more weapons, while we can all see how they are being used seems like a misinformation campaign?
Frankly, why would voicing distaste for Biden or ones intention not to vote for him cause people to do the same??
Like are you changing your mind right now? Of course not. A passionate person such as yourself should be even more determined to vote for Biden knowing i will not.
I hate the bullshit shutdown tactic of calling an opinion an astroturf campaign.
It's meant to keep voting democrats that are on the fence at home.
It's not just voicing distaste, it's providing a rational justification to this voter pool which appeals to a "morality of the left" mindset of not voting for a candidate because of singular issues even though the totality of the candidate is much better than the alternative.
It's also providing a bad-faith argument. Another Trump presidency would completely back this and potentially fuel an internal racial cleansing once the cult gets new talking points on who the bad people are.
It’s meant to keep voting democrats that are on the fence at home.
Meant? My comments are 'meant to do something? This just sounds goofy. Who actually thinks this way except pollsters and astroturfers? I have opinions, wrong and right, i share all of them on the Internet.
it’s providing a rational justification to this voter pool which appeals to a “morality of the left” mindset
I want to talk to you more deeply about this. Do you believe other people on lemmy are so credulous and yet so uninformed, so lacking in morality that reading about my opinion on it will sway them? These people are also voters that definitely vote normally, but are also so easy to manipulate that my words make them stop?
It’s also providing a bad-faith argument. Another Trump presidency would completely....
Stop.
A bad faith argument would be to say that there are only 2 choices, but that really there is only one choice.
That any argument against your belief is astroturf or a lie to help the opposition.
That states a guess of what the other candidate would have done as fact.
Who out of the two of us has done these things?
Vote Biden! Vote hard, cuz i won't. You, in the meantime need to stop talking, you do more harm than good to your cause.
Meant to do something?
Not your comments, the other's comments.
Do you believe other people reading about my opinion will sway them?
Yes I believe that there are people who will make decision opinion based on the social media discourse they read in the coming months. I would estimate its 15% of the voting population.
A bad faith argument would be to say that there are only 2 choices, but that really there is only one choice.
It is a bad faith argument because regardless of who is president, American Congressional support for Israel will continue. The original poster implied that by not voting, genocide would be avoided.
Vote hard cuz I won't
Cool, if you're not voting your opinion doesn't matter.
It matters enough for you to write a point-for-pointer debunking it, tho. I wonder why
Your thoughtless disrespect, misrepresenting of op's position, and besmirching the intelligence of your fellow voters notwithstanding, the time you spent on your opus makes me happy, believe it or not.
I hope you have a nice night :D
Not your comments, the other’s comments.
So, my comments? Fuck off, I'm also just expressing my political positions!
Your political positions are inane and childish, please keep them in your head until you graduate high school.
Okay, then by that logic, why is Biden helping Trump get elected by playing into this strategy?
Like I said, Biden has betrayed me over and over, but like a beaten dog I will crawl back to him if he just does this one thing. That's all I'm asking for. It would be so easy for Biden to get my vote. It's entirely in his hands. Yet he won't do it. Why? Why is he determined to help Trump win?
The outcome will not change regardless of who is President because Congress is beholden to the defense industry and will always support selling weapons.
So no one is helping anyone win because the outcome is the same. If this is your true opinion, get your head out of your ass and see the big picture. Otherwise, fuck you for trying to spread facism.
The outcome will not change regardless of who is President because Congress is beholden to the defense industry and will always support selling weapons.
Sounds like Democracy is already broken then. Remind me what I'm supposed to be defending here?
A broken democracy is better than a fascist regime.
A fascist regime today is better than one tomorrow. You people have no idea how to change trajectory here you just tell us to keep kicking the can as the country slides to the right. It's pathetic.
... if that's true, then elections don't matter in the first place! What the fuck?
If the outcome will not change regardless of who is President, why are you crawling up my dick about refusing to vote for Biden?
Your single issue outcome is the same, not every outcome.
That's more reasonable.
I still think you're wrong, I think Biden can be forced to endorse a ceasefire because politicians actually do care about elections. Right now the Biden team believes that Democrats are loyal to the core and can be counted to vote blue no matter who, there's zero incentive to endorse a ceasefire. Why bother? He can do anything he wants to you and you'll still vote for him. They've basically said as much.
And do you realize what that does? That's not a "single issue". Biden broke the railroad strike. Biden approved the Willow oil and gas pipeline project. Biden has fought to keep Trump's COVID border policies, despite basically giving up entirely on controlling the spread of the virus otherwise. Biden allowed Manchin to stonewall almost everything when there was a huge Democratic majority.
By voting blue no matter who, you have enabled Biden to completely ignore the demands of his own base. You're enabling genocide.
The outcome will change. Trump wants hot war with Iran. He is supported and surrounds himself by actual Zionists.
Biden is an actual Zionist!
I guess we'll see if we have a war with Iran by November or not. It doesn't look good!
"Those of us in Congress who voted for seven days... we are not going to forget this issue," Sanders warned on Thursday, Feb 2023.........
Yes... OP read one headline and then forgot about it lol
But not Amtrak Joe 💪
There's no excuse for blocking a strike. Fuck Joe Biden and fuck the 44 Democrat senators and 36 Republican senators who helped him.
It wasn't a retail worker strike, it was a rail worker strike. It's critical to national security that the rail lines be running. I hate strike-breaking legislation as it's a blatant removal of constitutional rights, but there is a fine line to walk as President in the face of a transport crisis.
Fuck national security. You can use that as an excuse for any bullshit. Didn't they use that as an excuse to lock up American citizens after pearl harbor?
This sentiment is exactly why strikes should include sabotage.
If you believe blocking the strike was the right call then you and I are not on the same side. Elect your procorporate trash candidate on your own.
Ah yes, The fact the workers got what they wanted isn't good enough is it?
Fucking hate phony people like this. Pretending you care about workers but don't actually.
Ah yes, The fact the workers got what they wanted isn’t good enough is it?
They didn't get what they wanted. They wanted 15 days. Nobody has 15 days. I know more about this issue than you.
I really despise people like this that fake care about workers
That's you bud.
It's bullshit workers went from 0 sick days to 7. Fuck joe Biden, piece of shit. Amirite??
Buddy, a few workers from one union have 7 days. You don't know what you're talking about. Yes, fuck Joe Biden.
Stop defending him for blocking a strike. That ain't pro worker any way you look at it. Fuck Joe Biden.
A few? Lmao
Yet another anti worker post. Simply amazing
Keep your head buried in the sand my dude.
I wonder what its like to play both sides. Kinda feel sorry for you
Fuck off. You're just going to be supporting someone who will be even worse about it and potentially even bring it home.
I hope your conscience feels real good when that happens.
My conscience is clean because I'm not voting for genocide. You are, and you're mad at me for pointing that out.
By not voting, you are still, implicitly, voting for the candidate who you wouldn't have voted for. Do you think he's not supporting Israel?
Do you think he even has any moral standing?
That's who you're voting for by not voting.
And if you vote for Trump, that's actually two votes for Trump! 🤡
And every dollar you don't donate to Biden is a dollar donated to Trump! 🙃
So if a Republican chooses to not vote because they don't like Biden or Trump, they're actually helping Biden! 😱
So you're fine if, when presented with two choices, you picked the one that made things worse? Ok.
This is such a bizarre argument to make in the context of supposedly saving Democracy. Being morally obligated to vote for one person I despise isn't Democratic. Sorry to burst your bubble.
Me trying to convince you to vote for a particular candidate is democratic, you knob.
And me saying "no" is also.
You can construct whatever ethics puzzles you want to absolve yourself of guilt, but you are literally voting for genocide. I'm not.
This is our only leverage, and if enough of us made it clear to Biden that he will lose then he would change his policies. This is the only power we have and we have a moral obligation to use it. Instead of cowardly voting for genocide, force Biden to the left like y'all promised.
I can't imagine being this dense, wow. Trump would be so obviously worse but you pretend to care about Biden instead. It's all so fake, nobody is going to give you virtue points when democracy dies.
They're fascist trolls trying to push leftists away from viable candidates. I see queermunist and go_go_gadget all over the place and they're always spouting this same shit. I guarantee if Bernie or some other progressive candidate began to seriously pick up steam they'd immediately pivot and make up some shit like "Warcrime Stein" or "Brutality Bernie".
This is it exactly. "If I can't get everything I want I'll take my ball and go home!" is such an obvious fash tactic and talking point.
Trump is pro-Israel.
So, you’re now a Trump supporter. Be okay with that. Because you and people like you- are enabling his next presidency- and WILL take the blame when he wins.
The alternative is Trump. You're either going to abstain or vote for Trump if Biden doesn't pull support for Israel? You know that literally every other POTUS since 1948 has been pro-Israel right?
Ending genocide isn't on the ballot this year, Trump is. Your choices are between probably more genocide if you don't vote for Biden and possibly less genocide if you do vote for Biden. It's really that simple.
Ending genocide isn’t on the ballot this year, Trump is.
Then fuck Joe Biden, fuck the Democrats, fuck this country and fuck this "Democracy". You all can try to win the general on your own.
If you literally can't tell the difference from 2016-2020 and 2020-2024, we can't help you.
I don't need your help. You need mine.
I hope you see you will be to blame for the consequences
Nope. I'm going to blame every shithead who voted for Biden in the 2020 primaries. Fuck those people. Fuck every single one of them.
Ending genocide isn’t on the ballot this year
Look at that comment. Really, really, look at it.
Yes, we live in America and don't get to vote on those sorts of things generally. The choices available are shitty and limited, if you haven't figured that out yet I've got some terrible news because that's how it works here. You can vote for the lesser evil and hope to move things in a better direction, or you can empower Trump and pretty much guarantee the horrorshow will be intensified.
I won't vote for evil at all. Not if it means this. I've voted that way, (lesser evil) in hopes that i could do like you said, but it didn't pan out that way in the 25 voting years I've experienced. The (quite likely) fact you have closer to that many total years as i have voting years, and that I've been a political hobbyist for most of those means your attempt at dismissal is a sloppy one.
Your judgment is not good then, I've been a voter for a bit longer than you. I don't think you really have a choice in "voting for evil", not voting or throwing your vote away on a third party is just as much a vote for evil as directly voting for Trump because it still serves to empower Trump and the GOP.
Your judgment is not good then
I dunno, i am ending this farce :D
You're basically saying you're "moral purity" is more important than the people who will be directly impacted by a trump presidency. When trump decides to, or more accurately motivate others to, "purify" this country of it's queers, Jews, and brown people my wife and I will have people like you to thank, who's moral purity was somehow more important than my life. Your decision isn't moral, it's evil.
You’re basically saying
Would you like to discuss why what your said is not a strawman?
i imagine you understand what one is. You ostensibly have fingers, so you can Google it, and i imagine also that you have eyes, and therefore some understanding that what you have said has already been said, and said better, then you, just now.
Still here? Considering both of these points (and the implicit understanding between us that you also have a brain), what on gods green earth did you smoke that made you think this opinion was worth sharing with me?
Because you can't possibly think you'd convince me with your ignorant, late, copy-cat finger-wagging.
Gosh. Letting out my frustration on you felt good. That probably wasn't your intent though. What on earth were you attenpting to do?
No one replies to your moronic comments hoping to change your mind, it's for anyone else who is impressionable that might find some twisted logic in your confused hogwash.
Ah! So it was for the peanut gallery. I hope you don't take as much damage next time you take a bullet for the poor impressionable lurkers in future threads. I wonder if they will also witness your winning an argument you made up?
Are you the type who needs the last word? Please be my guest, hero.
Ending genocide isn’t on the ballot this year,
It would be if you cowards had the guts to tell Biden that he will lose if he continues to support genocide.
Sorry but that's not how it works and insulting me won't change anything.
That is how it works! Politicians change their policies based on what their supporters demand of them.
What do you think politics is? Do you think we're helpless to the whims of politicians between election cycles?
You just want to absolve yourself of guilt for actively supporting genocide.
Again, insulting me won't change anything. I obviously don't support genocide. I'm done with whatever you're doing.
You are voting for genocide. You can't escape it.
By voting against Biden, including not voting, you are voting for genocide as well. But equally importantly, also voting for fascism.
Well, we made it pretty clear we were fed up with procorporate trash candidates in 2016. But then a bunch of pieces of shit decided they were voting for Biden in the 2020 primaries. We gave him a chance and he fucking blew it. Fuck Joe Biden and fuck everyone who voted for him in the primaries.
The few people on the Internet that read this or feel like you. Grow up. You're not changing anything. You're electing Trump. I've heard this bullshit for over 20 years and it's been a slippery fucking slope.
They really do come across as naive children, the people who espouse this kind of belief. Demonstrating a lack of awareness of how complicated global politics are while also demonstrating a lack of awareness of how, in some ways, simple American politics are. They remind me of myself as a high schooler, all full of righteous indignation and hope for change without understanding how things work.
There will only be two choices for president, no matter how much we may want it to be otherwise or pretend that it could be otherwise. That will remain the case until we can get rid of first past the post and no amount of protesting is going to change that. If you truly want a third party candidate, your focus should be on getting rid of first pass the post. Until then, we only have two options.
Yes, that does mean our democracy is broken. No, that doesn't mean it's unsalvageable. And as I said above, a broken democracy is better than a fascist regime.
That's the absolute worst part bc at that age I'd say shit like "well maybe they have to sacrifice their kids for there to even be a fucking future!" and thinking that's reasonable. Getting older, and enough dystopian media about hard choices, I've learned to ask "why" a lot more and remember.. What are we fighting for in the first place if we lose ourselves along the way? But yeah... You couldn't change my mind then, even if I couldn't see a Nazi on my doorstep like this. Very scary to be naive.
The few people on the Internet that read this or feel like you.
Sounds like you don't need our votes then. Go win the 2024 general election all on your own.
Biden is electing Trump by alienating his base. 80% of Democrats want a ceasefire! What the fuck?!
Your cynicism is noted, but change is possible if you aren't too much of a coward to try.
No matter how much people vote against Biden, that won't end the genocide. Regardless of the fact that Trump would carry it out probably more enthusiastically, neither of them have the power to stop Netanyahu. And Netanyahu doesn't give a shit what Americans citizens think. He has the military might to subjugate the Palestinians with or without the US and he has made it clear that that's what he intends to do.
Yeah, President's don't care about that shit. They're beholden to their corporate donors, who are going to be pro-Israel. Geopolitics and oil resources are a bitch, aren't they?
You're going to give up checks notes everything because he's continuing the same policy the US has held like forever?
I will vote for Biden if he ends his support for genocide. That's it. That's all I need to vote for him. I just want that one thing, even after he let me down by breaking the rail strike and continuing brutal anti-immigration and doing nothing abiut over policing and expanding American oil and stopping peace negotiations in Ukraine.
Just this one thing.
If that's too much to ask, he won't get my vote.
Unfortunately the alternative is a literal wannabe-dictator. By not voting, you’re basically helping Trump.
>By not voting, you’re basically helping Trump.
only a vote for trump helps trump
As a non American, seeing people claim that not voting doesn't help republicans is fucking hilarious. You'd think that after Trump winning in 2016 and stacking the supreme court, directly being the cause of abortion being outlawed in red states in the fucking 21st century (along with a host of other horrifying things), would make people actually fucking vote. But no here we are. Honestly I really hope you all get the government you want, but the longer I read politics posts on Lemmy the more I'm aghast at people who'd rather let it all burn down than aim for incremental positive change.
Apologies for any bad English, just putting my thoughts out there.
I wonder why republicans spend so much time trying to get people not to vote. Purging rolls, being against mail in voting, closing polling stations, etc. Seems dumb given that people not voting doesn’t help them.
Oh well. You probably know more about elections than them. Glad we have an expert in the house.
if you have something to say, say it. what I said was true.
I think my meaning was quite clear. You are a fool if you think suppressing the vote doesn’t help republicans. They’ve bet everything knowing that people not voting is good for them.
So congrats, you are helping elect our new fascist overlords by not voting for the unpalatable, but not fascist, dude that is on offer. It sucks, but grow the fuck up. Trump winning is going to be a disaster for literally everyone, including Palestinians.
I'm going to probably be voting for cornel west, but I could still be won back by Jill Stein.
neither of those votes help Trump
Cool.
Great way to throw away a vote against fascism voting for candidates with literally zero chance of winning.
Look up why the Nazis came to power sometime. Part of it was that people refused to rally around a single countervailing force. Biden is the countervailing force that has a chance of winning. Trump is literally opening quoting Nazis at this point and people aren’t fucking alarmed. smh
>Look up why the Nazis came to power sometime.
liberal democracy
Biden is most definitely fascist
Sure.
He's helping Israel do genocide. Like???
As a sincere question, what do you think Trump is going to do that is better than what Biden is going to do when it comes to the genocide in Gaza?
Because regardless of who you vote for or who you want to win, it will either be Biden or Trump, unless one of them dies or becomes invalidated. So, how will Trump be better for the Palestinians than Biden will be?
They won't bother answering. It's fucking pathetic
Unfortunately, center right wing democrats have been screaming this at the top of their lungs for so long, young people no longer care.
They will not vote blue no matter who, and you yelling whatever malarkey you’re on about is kind of pathetic.
Biden needs to fundamentally change a few things if he wants to get the support of young people. Supporting genocide is not going to win him the election. Not only does Biden support the genocide, he used his authority to give them more weapons and money without having to ask Congress. This isn’t going to fly with young people. And Biden needs young voters to win this election.
I get it that you’ve been voting blue no matter who your whole life and you think younger voters need to do the same thing.
But your way of thinking is a relic.
Man these libs suuuuure hate when you question their doctrine huh?
Here's a question for the one or two thinkers in this thread. I don't want replies, because replies will carry with them egos and snark for the peanut gallery. These questions are for you, (and no-comprendo's). Questions i had rolling around in my liberal brain before i transitioned to full troll or whatever liberals call leftists these days, questions that take time and reflection to answer.
If the Democrats only campaign to stop Republicans, but DON'T STOP the Republicans (only campaign to stop them), then when do we dem voters get to vote to help ourselves? Is there a timeline?
It has been 12 years of presidents, 12 long years of waiting, tightening our belts, "fighting for democracy". Why does it seem like the voters are the only ones interested in preserving it?
The DGA and the HRC campaign both have paper trails showing they've attempted to elevate extremism in the Republican party. Considering this is still a tactic in use, here's the million dollar question:
If the Democratic party could, would they keep running against a candidate like Trump every single election in the future?
Edit: thank you, those of you who are thinking. We need more people out there like you doing that
So you were happy with first term Obama but not second term Obama?
Am I reading this right?
Lol you're right. I was on a roll and added a whole term, oops! Let's pretend i meant to include bidens second term, which makes me right and not wrong
You were happy with second term Obama?
Indeed, I even voted for Obama second term. Was i as happy with him as the first time? Nah, but i was still a registered dem back then
Was it Clinton or Biden that caused you to turn your back to them?
I got into politics more deeply than ever, going door to door for bernie back in '16. The verdict by the judge in 17 saying the DNC is a private entity caused me to no longer believe in the Dem's primary process. The way HRC's campaign wanted to control both her and trump coverage in the media, the podesta emails, and that whole related scandal really put a beat down on my whole belief system.
So i kept reading and thinking and adjusting my political worldview and here i am, arguing it on a small forum on the web (or cynically working tirelessly to helpTrump win, depending on your pov)
Bernie didn’t have a chance to win, that’s why Trump desperately wanted to run against him.
He would have been great, but had no chance pulling in enough votes.
The veracity of this comment aside, of course he didn't have a chance, the DNC hand-selected Hillary.
Why did you bring it up instead of what i brought up, the verdict in '17 saying the primaries were rigged?
Hillary won the primaries in 2016.
Biden win them in 2020 even though Trump desperately wanted to run against Bernie.
I think you’re seeing conspiracies where there aren’t any.
when he carried on bush's war crimes, i was done with him. i thought executive orders would be undone, not expanded.
i couldn't even make it to obama's second term.
close gitmo
universal healthcare
student debt forgiveness
all lies.
Oh yeah, but you can't overestimate how much prop we get shoved down our throats. Kinda like McDs you don't realize how shit it is for your system until you stop eating it daily
i don't judge you for it, not really. i have friends who voted for hillary, and friends who voted for biden, and, hell, i voted for shapiro for AG ***AND*** governor even though i thought his AG term made him out to be a liar and a cop.
i'm not voting for him for president, though. fuck that.
I voted for Biden to stop fascism and now he's a genocide collaborator! Would Trump be worse? Maybe - it's unclear, because at least Democrats would oppose Trump. Trump saw the largest protest movement in American history, Trump inspires Democrats to actually ask for more, Trump will further isolate America (and Israel) geopolitically, it's hard to predict.
I'm not voting for him, I'm actually voting Democrat down ticket, but if he wins it's not the end of the world. It's an opportunity.
In the meantime? Withholding my vote is literally the only way I can exert pressure on Biden. I have a moral obligation to oppose genocide. I won't vote for it. If he's smart he'll reverse course on Israel to save his campaign and this will all be moot. Why is Biden helping Trump win?
You don't need to exert pressure on Biden. You need to help push the entire system back to the left. When Democrats in general are in government, it allows more room for further left candidates. Just like how electing Republicans made room for the Tea Party and the MAGA crazies. If the window had been more toward the left, they'd have been outside the Republican party.
I'm voting Democrat down ticket. I'm just not voting for genocide Joe.
That's the only way I can exert any pressure on him, and I don't have to wait a year for that pressure to manifest. If enough Democrats had the courage to stand up to Biden he'd be forced to change his policies. Instead, you are all choosing to be complicit in genocide.
Not voting is a valid choice, one that says you're okay with either candidate winning. And that is being complicit with genocide. If you're not okay with that, vote.
If you don't want to wait a year, you can call, write, protest, and donate to groups to do those things on your behalf. But to throw away your vote is incredibly short-sighted.
I'm voting for Democrats down ticket, hardly throwing it away. I'm just not voting for any pro-genocide candidates.
And if Biden is smart, he'll see how much support he's losing and change his policy towards Israel.
Biden is an empty suit. If the party tells him to change, he'll change.
Alternatively, Trump wins and everything gets even shittier, and we lose even the possibility for things to get better.
I like how you found yourself being down voted the moment you acknowledged what a piss poor excuse for "Democracy" this is.
Yup. But in the choice of who to vote for president, there's the establishment candidate, or the "dictator for a day" candidate. Or there's not voting, which is saying "yes, either of those are okay". One of those things has the chance of making progress, and it should be obvious.
What fucking progress my guy? Look around.
Insulin prices are lower now, a bunch of student loans are being forgiven. I know it's not the single payer collectivism we'd all like but to say it's not progress at all is a bit hyperbolic.
If we've progressed over the last 20 years then what are you panicking about? You can't tell me we've made progress while also telling me our Democracy is less secure than it was 20 years ago.
And the Party would tell him to change if the Party knew they'd lose the presidency.
Do you think the Party would rather Trump win than stop supporting Israel? I doubt that.
They know they're not going to lose on this issue, though, because anyone who seriously evaluates the election has come to the same conclusion that I already said: a Trump victory is the worst outcome. Again, you'll have to put pressure on the party through other means, just one of which is electing more leftist downballot candidates.
They may actually lose on this issue. Democrats rely pretty heavily on younger voters and a lot of the really young voters, Zoomers, are making this a do or die issue, even though both of our only two parties with any chance of winning will support the genocide regardless.
Okay, so my vote is irrelevant, got it. I've asked elsewhere and I'll ask it here: why are you crawling up my dick about it? If my presidential vote doesn't matter because "they're not going to lose on this issue" then I can comfortably just leave that spot blank.
Which I'm doing.
Exactly these people talk out of both sides of their mouths. On the one hand we don't matter, on the other we're responsible for HRC losing in 2016. It's so fucking pathetic.
I don’t understand why people think the democrats losing to someone farther right would make them move left. Doesn’t it make more sense they’d move to the right since that’s what more voters wanted?
So you admit Democrats are just fascist light? Sounds like the fight is over then. We lost.
That’s not what I said. Moderate dems need to lose to progressives and not to conservatives to move the party left.
It'll never happen. Too many primary voters are specifically out to fuck over leftist and progressives. Then they turn around and cry foul when we refuse to show up in the general. Fuck them.
The solution to our choices being a centrist and a literal fascist isn't to push the Overton window even further right. Such thinking is beyond naive.
What centrist? All I see are two fascists, because genocide sure as fuck isn't centrist.
You don't have to be fascist to be genocidal. The two just tend to overlap.
Bro you understand Biden isn't president of Israel right? This tired ass take that he somehow sets policy there shows how immature and uninformed you are.
I really do wonder how old the person you're commenting to is. It's very easy to be idealistic when you're young and lack experience. Eventually you learn that you're basically the same as the Freedom Caucus of the left if you're acting that way, refusing to compromise and make any positive changes whatsoever.
Old enough to have already gone through this exact song and dance routine before with Obama. "We just need to wait until the primaries to nominate a progressive, then we can finally move this Party to the left!" I saw how that turned out. The Party won't allow it.
Yet even still, I voted for Biden to stop fascism.
And now he's funding a genocide.
Idealism is voting blue no matter who and expecting them to stop taking advantage of you. Why should they? You are a loyal dog and will keep coming home no matter how hard they beat you.
I just want this one thing. My red line. I'll let Biden break strikes and deport refugees and round people into prisons and expand oil drilling, I'll let him do every fucking thing he promised he wouldn't, and all he has to do is oppose genocide. It's entirely within his power to do this.
This is the only leverage I have. I have a moral obligation to use it and so do you. By voting for genocide you are responsible for it.
Israel is the 51st state. This idea that Israel is a strong independent state that doesn't need the empire is a joke, they're wholly dependent on the US. When Reagan told Israel to back off of attacking the PLO in Lebanon, they did. Israel's power comes from its untouchable status.
And it gets that status because it's the only democracy in the middleeast and surrounded by enemies.
"democracy"
Why are you putting in quotes? It's uncontroversially defined as a "flawed democracy" by political science, same as the United States.
it's not a democracy at all. it systematically disenfranchises the Palestinian people in its borders.
Okay, what? That's doesn't make it not a democracy. America is and was a Democracy and only white men land owners could vote for like a century. You don't like its domestic policy so the entire field of political science is wrong, and it's not a democracy? Wow you have such big brain.
a democracy lets the demos rule. systematically excluding the demos from participation disqualifies you as a democracy. qed.
Yes it's considered a "flawed democracy."
id say it's a racist oligarchy.
america is a racist oligarchy, too.
Also incorrect, by the science.
wrong
Then say flawed democracy instead of trying to hold it up like some beacon of hope. It's not. It's a trash country run by trash people just like the United States.
Okay well in the entirety of the middle east it is the only country that governs by even a pretense of consent of the people. Every other state in the region is some form of authoritarian theocracy, not even close to democracy. Only the former has any hope of granting long term human rights.
none of those states are legitimate, including Israel.
ROFL!
You think Trump will "end the genocide"?
He will go even harder on "USA needs to support Israel defending God's promised land".
Remember he is the one who moved the US embassy to support Netanyahu's agenda.
THIS!!! Omg this! I wish I could agree more!
I am astounded by how polarized the younger generation is. It’s all, or nothing with them and they can’t see how badly that is going to fuck us up.
Hey kids….
LIFE EXISTS WITHIN THE GREY AREA. There’s a thing called NUANCE.
Deciding to not vote for THE ONE PERION CAPABLE OF KEEPING AMERICA FROM BEING A DICTATORSHIP because of a single issue… is flat-out FUCKING STUPID.
Get your heads out of your ass!
It's not one issue buddy. We've had lots of issues with Biden. You're just so far into denial you're not hearing us.
Yeah, every president has a lot of issues. You're just demonstrating that you don't care about electing a dictator.
So you admit what you just said is a lie? You knew all along we didn't have just one issue with Biden but you're out here saying it because you're a liar? Great. Glad we cleared that up.
Go ahead and list the issues you think would be worse than what Trump has done, and promises yet to do.
We’ll all wait here.
Of course Biden wouldn't be worse than Trump. I don't care? You'll have to do better than that if you want my vote. Millions of people had that opportunity in the 2020 primaries and they chose to vote for a procorporate piece of trash. Fuck those people. If they think they can ignore us in the primaries then we'll ignore their shit candidate in the general. Don't like it? That's how democracy works.
You’re not getting how this works.
You’re not voting for Biden? YOU’RE GETTING TRUMP.
You don’t get to pretend that not voting means you nothing will happen. Right now- you either drink the piss, or you eat the shit. You don’t get to chose neither.
So either move to another country, or pick one.
Right, my choice was made for me by selfish pieces of shit in the 2020 primaries who chose a procorporate trash candidate. They can go fuck themselves.
Trump did say what he would have done, but given it’s Trump he’d probably not do what he said:
With Biden, Democrats are mostly falling in line behind the genocide. It's a bipartisan genocide, with even Bernie being unwilling to support a ceasefire. With Trump, on the other hand, Democrats would reverse course and actually support a ceasefire to obstruct Trump.
-but that's all speculation. I don't know, for sure, that it would happen that way. What I do know is I won't vote for genocide, and I will withhold my vote unless Biden changes his policy on Israel. I won't vote for Trump, I'll even vote Dem down ticket, but I won't vote for genocide.
You, on the other hand, are literally voting for genocide if you support Biden. You just want to absolve yourself of that moral responsibility.
This is the most naive comment I've ever seen in my damn life.
"When you grow up sweatie you'll understand you need to vote for genocide to stop fascism." 🤡
We must always always always vote for the turd in every election, for if the turd doesn't win we'll be stuck with turd plus vomit.
That's exactly what you are doing. You're focusing on this one issue, retreating yourself from the binary decision because neither options stands for what you (or I, or morality) would prefer. Completely ignoring that withdrawing from the choice plays into the hand of the infinitely worse candidate. So by not choosing, you do nothing to stop the situation in Gaza, but might actually make things a lot worse for people all over.
You can virtue signal that you did not compromise on your believes, while actually helping your country make a worse place.
We've raised lots of issues. The amounts of the stimulus checks, the way he fucked us over with the BBB, the way he negotiated down for student loan forgiveness, for fucking over the rail workers. The list goes on. Every time we mention something we get shut down. For someone who wants our votes so badly you have a really odd way of showing it.
Now imagine all of that, with a splash of military enforced laws, harder anti-LGBTQ+ laws, defunding the EPA, pulling out of many international agreements, abortion in ANY circumstance being a criminal act….
Read up on his plans before you do a thing stupid like… NOT voting.
The stupid thing was to vote for Joe Biden in the 2020 primaries. Those people can go fuck themselves.
Ahhh… so you’re a trumper.
I voted for Obama twice and Biden once. Call me whatever you want. At the end of the day, do you need my vote or not? If you want it I've given you the terms: don't elect procorporate trash in the primaries.
So…. You’re fine with Trump then? Thats what you’re saying.
I'm fine with the people who voted for Biden in the 2020 primaries electing him all by themselves in 2024. They fucked over my interests in the primaries so they can go fuck themselves in the general.
Like I said, there are so many other issues that Biden has betrayed me on. This is just the red line. Here and no further.
You will let Biden do anything he wants to you and beg for more, just to stop Trump. It's revolting.
If enough Democrats pressured Biden to endorse a ceasefire by withholding their votes, he would! He's a politician. That's what politicians do. This is our only leverage! This is all we can do to stop the genocide, and I really think Biden would reconsider if it looked bad enough.
Why would anyone endorse a ceasefire? Hamas is firing more rockets at Israel just today.
A ceasefire means both sides stop. If you want Hamas to stop firing rockets, you want a ceasefire.
Hamas isn't going to stop.
Good job playing into the hands of the conservatives. If they can't get your vote they'll push arguments like yours in order to win.
Tell Joe Biden to stop fucking over voters he's depending on.
Good job playing into the hands of Zionists, they need you in order to continue the genocide.
This is dumb and self-righteous. It'll be 100 times worse with Trump and we all know this.
We slide farther to the right with each passing year regardless of which party wins. You all seem fine with the direction so we're just upping the timeline. If you want to go in a different direction tell Joe Biden to stop fucking over voters he's depending on. And tell anyone who voted for Biden in the 2020 primaries they're a fucking asshole.
Really? Why not a million times? A billion!
🤡
I thank god I'm not this illiterate. What do you think Trump's policy is gonna be? He caters to Republicans who WANT funding to Israel. He pushed the Overton window. What do you think he's gonna do? Is he gonna weave them baskets and pick them flowers? 🤔
I think he's going to be obstructed by Democrats, who I am voting for down ticket. I think he's going to ruin Israel's relations with the rest of the world and turn it into a pariah state. I think he's going to overextend himself and fail. I think he's a fat old man and might just die lol
Posting clown emojis just makes you look like a clown. Use your words.
Because the population in Iran is roughly 100 times the population in Palestine.
I don't think we'll have to wait for Trump to see war with Iran.
I guess we'll see what the next 9 months brings.
I'm pretty sure Iran is actively and deliberately pressing the US and its allies to engage in a more widespread war by encouraging and provisioning the Houthis in their current terrorism against unaligned trade ships in the Red Sea.
Kind of like how the US is providing unneeded military aid to Israel. Encourages Israel to "go for it" against their enemies. Two sides of a coin, but with Iran being more deliberate in wanting war because Israel is vastly outnumbered by its neighbors and they think they can eradicate it.
The US doesn't want to eradicate the Palestinians; they just don't care enough about the people stop it. The Iranians want to eradicate the Israelis.
Israel is actively and deliberately pressing all of its neighbors to engage in a more widespread war by constantly bombing them and assassinating their officials.
You’re not only supporting the same genocide with a vote for Trump, you’re also supporting all the bigotry, oppression, misogyny, racism, and cowardice that goes along with it.
And make no mistake- your stubborn refusal to vote against a tyrant over a single issue is what allows said tyrant to rule America.
We WILL blame you if Trump wins.
But why did this particular flare up in the Palestine-Israel conflict be the hill you'll die on? Why, for example, didn't Bidens support for the Saudis against the Houthis, which is much worse by most standards, put you off?
Secondly: how do you think you're helping the Palestinians by helping to replace Biden with Trump?
It was Biden going around Congress to give Israel more bombs blow up civilians that really set me off. He didn't do that for Saudi, he didn't do it for Ukraine, and he certainly doesn't do shit like that for Americans who need him to bypass Congress.
Second, I don't think Trump will be any better or worse than Biden on Palestine. That's why I'm not voting for him.
But I will not vote for genocide. I'd rather die.
(and I might, since I'm a trans communist in a red state)
Are you sure Trump won't be worse on Palestine? He was doing their diplomatic legwork all through his term. Moved the embassy to cement Israel's claim over Jerusalem.
Biden went around congress and stopped weapon sales to Saudi Arabia thus stopping their genocide in Yemen.
Trump actually vetoed congress on the same issue so the genocide could continue.
Effectively, by refusing to stop Trump to spite Biden, you are choosing for two genocides instead of one. On top of all the other things.
@nonailsleft @queermunist gosh, the trolley problem isnt contrived at all, its actually about fucking genocide and the 2-party system.
Well in the real worreldd, US voters are too weak to fix a broken democratic system. This should be addressed by, best chance, taking over the dnc from within and moving towards a supermajority that supports a better system.
But today, tomorrow,... Untill that is fixed: the trolley problem is real. To give someone else control of the trolley does nothing to fix the systemic problem. You might think so. Your gut tells you letting things explode might wake up enough people to start a revolution. But history shows it doesn't.
You can vote to limit genocide and work towards fixing the system, without compromising the other
Your vote lends credibility and mandate to the regime. Your vote says "yes please, I want more of this". They don't care that you are actually voting to minimize the damage, they only care that they can do anything they want to you and you'll beg for more just to stop Trump.
Like I said, if this is a trolley problem then we have to derail the trolley.
Derail the trolley dawg.
Yup. Ending genocide is not on the ballot. Keeping American democracy on life support is on the ballot. And if we lose it because of this childish bullshit, abstainers in 2023 are to blame. You're as useless as the Dem voters we're already desperately trying to activate off the couch. Worst part is you're doing it on purpose. You're voting for Trump. It doesn't matter how you feel. This is a fact. We're hanging on by a thread and you're whining to your own comrades about your feelings and discomfort. Vote far left down ballot. Elect a democratic president. Otherwise fuck yourself, your words mean literally nothing when you're hauled off to camp from your family or put on the wall. Thanks for your opinions.
Beautifully said my friend!
Sounds like a really healthy democracy you've got there. 🙄
Anyway, the reason we're in this position is because everyone who voted for Biden in the 2020 primaries is a complete asshole who intentionally fucked over progressive and leftist efforts. Now they're mad we won't show up for him in the general? Get fucked.
Nobody is saying that we have a healthy democracy. In fact, just the opposite: they are pointing out that we do not and that is why we are on such thin ice.
And yet, when it came time to select the Democrat nominee millions of people were like "I know we're on thin ice but I'm still going to vote for the procorporate trash candidate."
People who voted for Biden in the primaries are fucking assholes.
That's more of a DNC decision. It's traditional for both parties to run their incumbent candidate because the incumbent usually wins.
And did win.
Bernie was buy-and-large the most popular candidate in 2016. Mainstream media all but refused to put him on air(He was bad for business, i.e. for millionaires/billionaire executives). The DNC completely fucked us when they still elected to put Hillary on the ballot; even with the GOP colluding with the FBI to investigate her, whether or not that was legitimate is irrelevant. The DNC fucked us. And yet... Like others have said, our democracy is currently so fragile that we have no real other choice other than to vote D straight down the ballot.
The only other possible option would be for a major of the country to write-in the same person in the primary election and then for that person to register as an official candidate and then run in the general election and win. The vast majority of states require a candidate to be registered for them to be a write-in. And good fucking luck convincing a majority of this country to agree on one person. Personally, if that were to happen I would proudly write-in Jon Stewart.
Biden hasn't been that bad. Not bad enough to risk never getting to vote again.
Did you just admit the DNC primaries are rigged?
First time?
A) The incumbent party always runs the sitting president if they are eligible for another term. That's not rigging, it's literally how it works.
B) Yes, the DNC rigs the primaries. Did you already forget when the DNC forced Hillary on us in 2016? Hell, if you're asking that question than you obviously already forgot 2016, so of course you don't even remember 2020.
C) For someone with such strong opinions, you don't seem to know much about the process. Seriously, is this your first time paying attention? Or is this your first time as an eligible voter?
Buddy I was talking about the 2020 primaries. You misread my comment.
Who said they're not. But that has nothing to do with you choosing to elect Trump. That's just you being a bad loser pathetic whiney bitch.
Lol. Like all the bad loser pathetic whiney bitches who were big mad when we didn't show up for Hillary? Stop voting for procorporate trash in the primaries.
That has nothing to do with today. You're dumb.
Call me whatever you want. If you don't need my vote ignore me. If you need my vote then fucking pay attention.
In all of your comments, I've yet to see you propose a solution to prevent the end of our democracy. Just complaining it's not enough of a democracy.
How does letting Trump get elected get you closer to your goals, not further?
It's not my responsibility to propose a solution to prevent the end of democracy. It's the responsibility of everyone who voted for Joe Biden in the 2020 primaries why they're such pieces of shit.
So you really are just here to whine and make a point of detracting people from stopping Trump's victory. You really do suck. I felt bad for being a dick. But you're worthless and selfish.
No I'm not. That's the point. There were reasonable compromises to be made during the 2020 primaries. Those compromises were intentionally rejected by people who are now angry that I won't show up to vote. People who voted for Biden in the 2020 primaries are worthless and selfish.
We don’t have a choice right now. Wake up.
When will we have a choice? Tell me how many more times I'm morally obligated to vote for your piece of shit candidate?
It doesn’t fucking matter. You’re voting for your life and the lives of others. This isn’t a single issue election. Get that through your fucking head.
If that's true then the people who voted for Biden in the 2020 primaries are absolute pieces of shit. Fuck them for fucking over progressive and leftist efforts.
You don't even use logic. Those concepts have no relationship. You're just an idiot with too much time online. You even go to DSA protests? Activism? You're nothing.
Buddy, I have phone banked, canvassed, donated and voted.
Then you don't need my vote and you can just ignore me.
No. I will not put up with this for 48 more years.
Correct. Because this won't be here.
Good.
People had a choice in the 2020 primaries and they chose procorporate trash Joe Biden. That's on them for picking a shit candidate. Not me.
It’s totally on you. And you can trust me on this- YOU will be blamed if Trump wins.
I do not give a fuck. What are you not understanding here? What did you people not fucking get in 2016? Who the fuck thought it was a good idea to test us again by voting for Joe fucking Biden in the 2020 primaries. Fuck all of those people. They actively fought us and proved we're not on the same side.
Wah wah wah wah this is hard and didn't go my way so I'm gonna whine and fuck everyone even harder, my fellow victims included. So we should get sent to the fucking chamber and women made breeding machines bc you're a whiney bitch. If you're not gonna help, go get hit by a bus instead of bringing the rest of us down. You're disgusting and sad.
Welcome to Democracy. You aren't entitled to my vote. If you need it then make better choices in the primaries. If you don't need my vote continue voting for procorporate trash and then crying when they lose in the general election.
"democracy is on life support".. yeah.. didn't say this was healthy. Thanks for demonstrating the problem with binary zero sum game thinking. You're not grounded in reality if you can't see we're on life support. You don't give a dying person meth and have them run a marathon. You hold on for dear life.
And fwiw wrt primaries... I voted against him. I voted against Hillary. I even voted against Pelosi for being too conservative. You're fighting your comrades and the movement and that's why you're in the wrong and you don't mean anything. Your politics and intellectualism mean nothing with the barrel of a gun between your eyes. Get your head out of your ass and vote against fascism. Or be a baby and have my friends and family killed in a few years. But I should get fucked. Thanks comrade. I'll think about this comment looking out the window of the train at my kid for the last time. I'll forever remember your vote, when I work to death in that mine, picturing my child screaming and crying the last time they see me.
You should've gotten your head out of your ass and voted for someone better in the 2020 primaries. You voted for Biden. I'm not responsible for how your garbage candidate performs in the general.
America has never been a democracy. 🙄
Also, I'm not voting for Trump! I'm even voting left down ballot, I'm just not voting for Biden specifically.
If Trump wins and Democrats control both chambers, what the hell can he even do? Bloviate? I guess maybe he'll do some executive orders that the 6-3 Court will uphold, but if Democrats aren't worthless cowards they'll just refuse to enforce his orders and it won't matter anyway.
Translation:
Because of a single issue- I will vote for Trump who also supports genocide, but in addition- supports racism, bigotry, misogyny, and cowardice.
There's lots of other issues. You just weren't paying attention to what people have been saying.
Go ahead and list the issues you have with Biden that would be worse than the issues you’d have with Trump. Keep in mind, that the orange-utan has threatened to use the military once in power to keep people like you in line. Also worth mentioning, he plans on strengthening the abortion ban, more oppression of the LGBTQ+ and withdrawing from climate agreements.
So please. Enlighten us on how your single-issue is worse than dealing with a tyrant.
You can accept the truth of this, or you can pout and hold on to your vote, but I’ll warn you than the latter is a vote for Trump no matter how you try and justify it.
Do the right thing.
We've raised a lot of issues with Biden. You just haven't been paying attention.
Millions of people had the opportunity to do the right thing in the 2020 primaries and instead they voted for procorporate trash Joe Biden. Fuck those people.
I say again;
Go ahead and list the issues you have with Biden that would be worse than the issues you’d have with Trump. Keep in mind, that the orange-utan has threatened to use the military once in power to keep people like you in line. Also worth mentioning, he plans on strengthening the abortion ban, more oppression of the LGBTQ+ and withdrawing from climate agreements.
Know what? Nevermind. I don’t want to hear from you anymore.
You never did.
Look at this closely people.This is the misinformation campaign for the election.
Both sides support this war, this stance that a republican would do anything different is laughable.
This is the rhetoric that will be blasted all around social media creating a bullshit narrative of a rational liberal "taking the high ground" and encouraging others to follow by voting blue for everyone but Joe Biden.
I've been seeing a lot of this lately and I agree, it definitely feels like an astroturf campaign.
Most single issue voters are focused on domestic issues such as abortion or the economy. And you would think that someone who cares so much about Israel would also be worried about other aspects of foreign policy such as Ukraine.
The whole premise is ridiculous. And I think it speaks to Biden's success as a president that this is the best campaign they can come up with.
I dunno, is it that crazy to think the venn diagram of liberal voters and people that hate genocide are a near-perfect circle?
Biden doing an end-around Congress to send more weapons, while we can all see how they are being used seems like a misinformation campaign?
Frankly, why would voicing distaste for Biden or ones intention not to vote for him cause people to do the same??
Like are you changing your mind right now? Of course not. A passionate person such as yourself should be even more determined to vote for Biden knowing i will not.
I hate the bullshit shutdown tactic of calling an opinion an astroturf campaign.
It's meant to keep voting democrats that are on the fence at home.
It's not just voicing distaste, it's providing a rational justification to this voter pool which appeals to a "morality of the left" mindset of not voting for a candidate because of singular issues even though the totality of the candidate is much better than the alternative.
It's also providing a bad-faith argument. Another Trump presidency would completely back this and potentially fuel an internal racial cleansing once the cult gets new talking points on who the bad people are.
Meant? My comments are 'meant to do something? This just sounds goofy. Who actually thinks this way except pollsters and astroturfers? I have opinions, wrong and right, i share all of them on the Internet.
I want to talk to you more deeply about this. Do you believe other people on lemmy are so credulous and yet so uninformed, so lacking in morality that reading about my opinion on it will sway them? These people are also voters that definitely vote normally, but are also so easy to manipulate that my words make them stop?
Stop.
A bad faith argument would be to say that there are only 2 choices, but that really there is only one choice.
That any argument against your belief is astroturf or a lie to help the opposition.
That states a guess of what the other candidate would have done as fact.
Who out of the two of us has done these things?
Vote Biden! Vote hard, cuz i won't. You, in the meantime need to stop talking, you do more harm than good to your cause.
Not your comments, the other's comments.
Yes I believe that there are people who will make decision opinion based on the social media discourse they read in the coming months. I would estimate its 15% of the voting population.
It is a bad faith argument because regardless of who is president, American Congressional support for Israel will continue. The original poster implied that by not voting, genocide would be avoided.
Cool, if you're not voting your opinion doesn't matter.
It matters enough for you to write a point-for-pointer debunking it, tho. I wonder why
Your thoughtless disrespect, misrepresenting of op's position, and besmirching the intelligence of your fellow voters notwithstanding, the time you spent on your opus makes me happy, believe it or not.
I hope you have a nice night :D
So, my comments? Fuck off, I'm also just expressing my political positions!
Your political positions are inane and childish, please keep them in your head until you graduate high school.
Okay, then by that logic, why is Biden helping Trump get elected by playing into this strategy?
Like I said, Biden has betrayed me over and over, but like a beaten dog I will crawl back to him if he just does this one thing. That's all I'm asking for. It would be so easy for Biden to get my vote. It's entirely in his hands. Yet he won't do it. Why? Why is he determined to help Trump win?
The outcome will not change regardless of who is President because Congress is beholden to the defense industry and will always support selling weapons.
So no one is helping anyone win because the outcome is the same. If this is your true opinion, get your head out of your ass and see the big picture. Otherwise, fuck you for trying to spread facism.
Sounds like Democracy is already broken then. Remind me what I'm supposed to be defending here?
A broken democracy is better than a fascist regime.
A fascist regime today is better than one tomorrow. You people have no idea how to change trajectory here you just tell us to keep kicking the can as the country slides to the right. It's pathetic.
... if that's true, then elections don't matter in the first place! What the fuck?
If the outcome will not change regardless of who is President, why are you crawling up my dick about refusing to vote for Biden?
Your single issue outcome is the same, not every outcome.
That's more reasonable.
I still think you're wrong, I think Biden can be forced to endorse a ceasefire because politicians actually do care about elections. Right now the Biden team believes that Democrats are loyal to the core and can be counted to vote blue no matter who, there's zero incentive to endorse a ceasefire. Why bother? He can do anything he wants to you and you'll still vote for him. They've basically said as much.
And do you realize what that does? That's not a "single issue". Biden broke the railroad strike. Biden approved the Willow oil and gas pipeline project. Biden has fought to keep Trump's COVID border policies, despite basically giving up entirely on controlling the spread of the virus otherwise. Biden allowed Manchin to stonewall almost everything when there was a huge Democratic majority.
By voting blue no matter who, you have enabled Biden to completely ignore the demands of his own base. You're enabling genocide.
The outcome will change. Trump wants hot war with Iran. He is supported and surrounds himself by actual Zionists.
Biden is an actual Zionist!
I guess we'll see if we have a war with Iran by November or not. It doesn't look good!
Maybe you need to look up how the rail strike ended... its clear you're exceptionally misinformed.
https://www.npr.org/2023/02/10/1155763336/freight-rail-workers-union-paid-sick-leave-bernie-sanders-csx
Joe has been a phenomenal President so far
"Those of us in Congress who voted for seven days... we are not going to forget this issue," Sanders warned on Thursday, Feb 2023.........
Yes... OP read one headline and then forgot about it lol
But not Amtrak Joe 💪
There's no excuse for blocking a strike. Fuck Joe Biden and fuck the 44 Democrat senators and 36 Republican senators who helped him.
It wasn't a retail worker strike, it was a rail worker strike. It's critical to national security that the rail lines be running. I hate strike-breaking legislation as it's a blatant removal of constitutional rights, but there is a fine line to walk as President in the face of a transport crisis.
Fuck national security. You can use that as an excuse for any bullshit. Didn't they use that as an excuse to lock up American citizens after pearl harbor?
This sentiment is exactly why strikes should include sabotage.
If you believe blocking the strike was the right call then you and I are not on the same side. Elect your procorporate trash candidate on your own.
Ah yes, The fact the workers got what they wanted isn't good enough is it?
Fucking hate phony people like this. Pretending you care about workers but don't actually.
They didn't get what they wanted. They wanted 15 days. Nobody has 15 days. I know more about this issue than you.
I really despise people like this that fake care about workers
That's you bud.
It's bullshit workers went from 0 sick days to 7. Fuck joe Biden, piece of shit. Amirite??
Buddy, a few workers from one union have 7 days. You don't know what you're talking about. Yes, fuck Joe Biden.
Stop defending him for blocking a strike. That ain't pro worker any way you look at it. Fuck Joe Biden.
A few? Lmao
Yet another anti worker post. Simply amazing
Keep your head buried in the sand my dude.
I wonder what its like to play both sides. Kinda feel sorry for you
Fuck off. You're just going to be supporting someone who will be even worse about it and potentially even bring it home.
I hope your conscience feels real good when that happens.
My conscience is clean because I'm not voting for genocide. You are, and you're mad at me for pointing that out.
By not voting, you are still, implicitly, voting for the candidate who you wouldn't have voted for. Do you think he's not supporting Israel?
Do you think he even has any moral standing?
That's who you're voting for by not voting.
And if you vote for Trump, that's actually two votes for Trump! 🤡
And every dollar you don't donate to Biden is a dollar donated to Trump! 🙃
So if a Republican chooses to not vote because they don't like Biden or Trump, they're actually helping Biden! 😱
So you're fine if, when presented with two choices, you picked the one that made things worse? Ok.
This is such a bizarre argument to make in the context of supposedly saving Democracy. Being morally obligated to vote for one person I despise isn't Democratic. Sorry to burst your bubble.
Me trying to convince you to vote for a particular candidate is democratic, you knob.
And me saying "no" is also.
You can construct whatever ethics puzzles you want to absolve yourself of guilt, but you are literally voting for genocide. I'm not.
This is our only leverage, and if enough of us made it clear to Biden that he will lose then he would change his policies. This is the only power we have and we have a moral obligation to use it. Instead of cowardly voting for genocide, force Biden to the left like y'all promised.
I can't imagine being this dense, wow. Trump would be so obviously worse but you pretend to care about Biden instead. It's all so fake, nobody is going to give you virtue points when democracy dies.
They're fascist trolls trying to push leftists away from viable candidates. I see queermunist and go_go_gadget all over the place and they're always spouting this same shit. I guarantee if Bernie or some other progressive candidate began to seriously pick up steam they'd immediately pivot and make up some shit like "Warcrime Stein" or "Brutality Bernie".
This is it exactly. "If I can't get everything I want I'll take my ball and go home!" is such an obvious fash tactic and talking point.
Trump is pro-Israel.
So, you’re now a Trump supporter. Be okay with that. Because you and people like you- are enabling his next presidency- and WILL take the blame when he wins.
The alternative is Trump. You're either going to abstain or vote for Trump if Biden doesn't pull support for Israel? You know that literally every other POTUS since 1948 has been pro-Israel right?
Ending genocide isn't on the ballot this year, Trump is. Your choices are between probably more genocide if you don't vote for Biden and possibly less genocide if you do vote for Biden. It's really that simple.
Then fuck Joe Biden, fuck the Democrats, fuck this country and fuck this "Democracy". You all can try to win the general on your own.
If you literally can't tell the difference from 2016-2020 and 2020-2024, we can't help you.
I don't need your help. You need mine.
I hope you see you will be to blame for the consequences
Nope. I'm going to blame every shithead who voted for Biden in the 2020 primaries. Fuck those people. Fuck every single one of them.
Look at that comment. Really, really, look at it.
Yes, we live in America and don't get to vote on those sorts of things generally. The choices available are shitty and limited, if you haven't figured that out yet I've got some terrible news because that's how it works here. You can vote for the lesser evil and hope to move things in a better direction, or you can empower Trump and pretty much guarantee the horrorshow will be intensified.
I won't vote for evil at all. Not if it means this. I've voted that way, (lesser evil) in hopes that i could do like you said, but it didn't pan out that way in the 25 voting years I've experienced. The (quite likely) fact you have closer to that many total years as i have voting years, and that I've been a political hobbyist for most of those means your attempt at dismissal is a sloppy one.
Your judgment is not good then, I've been a voter for a bit longer than you. I don't think you really have a choice in "voting for evil", not voting or throwing your vote away on a third party is just as much a vote for evil as directly voting for Trump because it still serves to empower Trump and the GOP.
I dunno, i am ending this farce :D
You're basically saying you're "moral purity" is more important than the people who will be directly impacted by a trump presidency. When trump decides to, or more accurately motivate others to, "purify" this country of it's queers, Jews, and brown people my wife and I will have people like you to thank, who's moral purity was somehow more important than my life. Your decision isn't moral, it's evil.
Would you like to discuss why what your said is not a strawman?
i imagine you understand what one is. You ostensibly have fingers, so you can Google it, and i imagine also that you have eyes, and therefore some understanding that what you have said has already been said, and said better, then you, just now.
Still here? Considering both of these points (and the implicit understanding between us that you also have a brain), what on gods green earth did you smoke that made you think this opinion was worth sharing with me?
Because you can't possibly think you'd convince me with your ignorant, late, copy-cat finger-wagging.
Gosh. Letting out my frustration on you felt good. That probably wasn't your intent though. What on earth were you attenpting to do?
No one replies to your moronic comments hoping to change your mind, it's for anyone else who is impressionable that might find some twisted logic in your confused hogwash.
Ah! So it was for the peanut gallery. I hope you don't take as much damage next time you take a bullet for the poor impressionable lurkers in future threads. I wonder if they will also witness your winning an argument you made up?
Are you the type who needs the last word? Please be my guest, hero.
It would be if you cowards had the guts to tell Biden that he will lose if he continues to support genocide.
Sorry but that's not how it works and insulting me won't change anything.
That is how it works! Politicians change their policies based on what their supporters demand of them.
What do you think politics is? Do you think we're helpless to the whims of politicians between election cycles?
You just want to absolve yourself of guilt for actively supporting genocide.
Again, insulting me won't change anything. I obviously don't support genocide. I'm done with whatever you're doing.
You are voting for genocide. You can't escape it.
By voting against Biden, including not voting, you are voting for genocide as well. But equally importantly, also voting for fascism.
Well, we made it pretty clear we were fed up with procorporate trash candidates in 2016. But then a bunch of pieces of shit decided they were voting for Biden in the 2020 primaries. We gave him a chance and he fucking blew it. Fuck Joe Biden and fuck everyone who voted for him in the primaries.
The few people on the Internet that read this or feel like you. Grow up. You're not changing anything. You're electing Trump. I've heard this bullshit for over 20 years and it's been a slippery fucking slope.
They really do come across as naive children, the people who espouse this kind of belief. Demonstrating a lack of awareness of how complicated global politics are while also demonstrating a lack of awareness of how, in some ways, simple American politics are. They remind me of myself as a high schooler, all full of righteous indignation and hope for change without understanding how things work.
There will only be two choices for president, no matter how much we may want it to be otherwise or pretend that it could be otherwise. That will remain the case until we can get rid of first past the post and no amount of protesting is going to change that. If you truly want a third party candidate, your focus should be on getting rid of first pass the post. Until then, we only have two options.
Yes, that does mean our democracy is broken. No, that doesn't mean it's unsalvageable. And as I said above, a broken democracy is better than a fascist regime.
That's the absolute worst part bc at that age I'd say shit like "well maybe they have to sacrifice their kids for there to even be a fucking future!" and thinking that's reasonable. Getting older, and enough dystopian media about hard choices, I've learned to ask "why" a lot more and remember.. What are we fighting for in the first place if we lose ourselves along the way? But yeah... You couldn't change my mind then, even if I couldn't see a Nazi on my doorstep like this. Very scary to be naive.
Sounds like you don't need our votes then. Go win the 2024 general election all on your own.
Biden is electing Trump by alienating his base. 80% of Democrats want a ceasefire! What the fuck?!
Your cynicism is noted, but change is possible if you aren't too much of a coward to try.
No matter how much people vote against Biden, that won't end the genocide. Regardless of the fact that Trump would carry it out probably more enthusiastically, neither of them have the power to stop Netanyahu. And Netanyahu doesn't give a shit what Americans citizens think. He has the military might to subjugate the Palestinians with or without the US and he has made it clear that that's what he intends to do.
Yeah, President's don't care about that shit. They're beholden to their corporate donors, who are going to be pro-Israel. Geopolitics and oil resources are a bitch, aren't they?
You're going to give up checks notes everything because he's continuing the same policy the US has held like forever?