cutting head count without “firing” people. standard capitalism bullshit.
stop using amazon. let it rot.
It's easy to avoid buying things from Amazon. It's hard to avoid AWS. It would be insane to try to suss out what provider everyone that I buy stuff from uses, and their third party relationships. Regulation is better.
Yep, try browsing with ublock origin blocking all Amazon domains. Lots of things break because AWS is so large.
In the old days people used to have their own servers...
And you can still buy them...
And the cloud really isn't cheaper...
But whatever, it's ubiquitous today. Maybe someday people will wake the F up.
Exactly. This is just more failures of govt to constrain and regulate.
It's easy to avoid buying things from Amazon
I mean... Yes but also no.
Amazon have gone to crap in recent years and has become a more upmarket Wish or Temu. Much of their storefront is full of Chinese knock-off brands these days.
What Amazon does offer is somewhat reliable next (and sometimes same) day delivery. The only way you can get something faster is by travelling to a brick & mortar shop and buying in person.
As for AWS, aren't we forgetting that Microsoft, IBM, Oracle, Google, even Alibaba and Huawei have their own cloud solutions?
The best way to do this is to correlate downtime with main providers. If a cloud provider goes down when AWS has outages on related services, it's probably using an AWS service.
That links says only a quarter did it because they wanted people to quit, so it suggests that chances are this is not the reason Amazon is doing it...and you're posting while claiming it factually proves this is their motivation? Pretty deceiving.
I personally read this as "one quarter admit they did it to get people to quit". If you think these folks are always transparent and honest, think again. They're just trying to say whatever gets them the least amount of bad PR
This is effectively a layoff without benefits.
Your position hinges on the survey not being anonymous. I clicked through and found nothing that claims it was not anonymous, and these things are normally done anonymously for exactly the reason you point out: less honesty.
Do you have anything to back this up or is it simply that holding this belief helps confirm what you already believe to be true?
Which works fine as long as you don't mind keeping your worst employees, while all your best ones quit, which is generally the opposite of how it works during layoffs
It does also work for them that they retain employees who are more likely to put up with their bullshit. They can cull the truly lazy ones at a later date as required, either by firing them or finding a similarly bullshit change that they're likely to be adverse to.
Yah this is literally the most basic shit any company can do to be more "green", cut costs, have access to a larger worker base...
Nope. Because the CEOs are all more concerned with the commercial real estate market than running their company efficiently.
Because the CEOs are all more concerned with the commercial real estate market than running their company efficiently.
It's shocking how many people have honestly bought this. I mean, I'm sure there is some truth to it and maybe somewhere, someone forced people to come back because of some real estate interests... But the CEO of Amazon almost certainly gains to benefit much more from a rise in price of Amazon stock than any real estate they might own. And even if it was the case, I dont think the board would be very happy about it.
It might be the wrong move, and maybe it is being done to get people to quit, but it's being done because they think it means more money from Amazon.
I think they are mostly doing this as a stealth layoff. It's been a pretty popular strategy lately.
The joke is, you get the good people to leave first this way. Be it estate or layoff, it's a bad move either way.
So why do they do it still? Only thing i can think of is the powerplay. CEO types are sometimes as developed as a child, mentally.
Also Andy Jassey does not look like he is able to effectively groom himself, so that tracks.
Because from you run a mega corp, you don't care about talent. You need complaint slaves!
Yeah and this whole agenda of RTO rolled out worldwide directly after Davos 2023 when a bunch of CEOs were tweeting about it from there. But noticing this makes you a conspiracy theorist.
They illegally fired the very employees who led the effort to pressure the company internally to do more on climate.. All their climate posturing ever since has been bullshit.
The employees hired during full remote are now going to have to change their lives around going into the office. Tech employees are especially fucked because they either have to stay or they have to attempt to join the flood of tech employees looking for remote jobs (which was caused by the execs doing layoffs at tech companies).
There should be protections against hiring someone remote and then forcing them into the office as soon as you want to lay people off by forcing them to quit so you don't have to compensate them.
In some countries, there are already.
In others, it will be up to courts to decide whether this is illegally firing staff. That said, good luck getting equal legal representation to these trillion-dollar companies.
So yes, basically, it's legal.
That’ll teach us plebs. We’d better start licking some serious Amazon boot so they deign to let some of us earn enough to not die.
Thats assuming those full remote employees are anywhere near an office.
The worst is those people who bought houses out of town at the top of the real estate market because they believed the propaganda about WFH being permanent. However I never trusted C-level execs or directors not to renege on this, so I didn't do that.
The beatings will continue until moral improves.
God I hate Amazon now. They're basically Wal-Mart these days with half the results being sponsored (advertisements) - and you see that even if you pay for Prime. There are some things you can only get there, but otherwise, since all e-commerce is converging, I don't see the point of enabling their bad behavior. But whichever global corporate enterprise you take your business to, they will likely have a similar mindset.
And the search engine is shit, with non-existent filters. So you browse for longer and buy more shit you never needed.
Fuck Amazon.
Trying to make those yearly office space rentals worth it
Aren't they still cheaper if nobody uses them?
Maybe. Real estate is flaky game at best
Ok, but I'm still not going back to wearing pants.
They should be charged an emissions tax and worker safety tax since driving to/from work is one of the leading causes of death for working adults
Seems like covid's overall impact on society won't be as long lived as we thought. The whole work from home thing was almost seen as revolutionary as it would save office space and expenses. But it seems companies care far more for control than even profit.
Don't give up so easily
We can't really give up. But I am a shit activist...
I drive by the Boeing strike every day and I do my part and I hunk twice quickly! Do your part guys! Hunk! It matters!
It's not your job today, but it could be you there tomorrow at 8am wet and soggy from the rain and fog that continually falls in the PNW.
Honk like you just crashed on that big barrel of stuff burning. They burn stuff to stay dry and warm. It's cold out here....not yet but give two more months and it will be freezing temps.
Companies want profit but the people who run them want control. Sooner or later the companies will reconfigure themselves to benefit the bottom line.
Cool, glad I didn't listen to my parents, who wanted me to work for Amazon. Yeah, I probably could've made a ton more, but I'm making plenty where I'm at.
I work 2x in office, less if I have a somewhat passable reason to not go in. And I can WFH for a few weeks at a time if I need to travel for whatever reason. It's nice working for someone that somewhat respects me.
"Probably could've made a ton more" - no chance of that working for Amazon.
You dodged a lot of pain and loooong hours, 7 days a week.
I work 2x in office, less if I have a somewhat passable reason to not go in. And I can WFH for a few weeks at a time if I need to travel for whatever reason.
For now. Soon it's going to be: "Well, Amazon is calling people back, maybe we should, too."
Well, the day my boss says that is the day I submit my 2 weeks notice, and probably half of our dept. We were hired with the promise of always having 3 days at home most days, and my boss kept to that, even pushing back against company policy that tried to shift to 3 days in office.
The day your boss does that is the day they want to lay people off on the cheap, because it's a stupid decision with no measurable benefit over the 3 day minimum most of the big tech companies seem to have settled on.
And that's fine, if my boss changes so radically that he'd go back on years of doing uncomfortable things to keep his word, I know it's not a company I'd feel comfortable working at anymore anyway. Some things they've done:
push back on 3-days in office - we "tried" it for a month or two, then went back to 2-days because it hurt our productivity
when a visiting exec scheduled a mandatory meeting outside of our 2-day in-office window, boss told us to WFH one of those two days and pushed the exec to schedule future meetings in that 2-day window (which they've done since)
tells us before changes come from corporate, and which will actually impact us (generally speaking, he says "ignore that new policy")
keeps us updated about department funding, and what the plans are if funding drops; he has hired some outside teams specifically so he can drop them if funding gets cut
In other words, he has kept his word for the few years I've worked here, and we've recently been getting praise from the executive team on company-wide calls (well, basically "product X has turned into a primary focus for our org's strategy going forward," where X is the thing I work on and was criticized just a few years).
If my boss leaves the org, I'll probably start looking for jobs. But until then, I'm very happy where I am, even if I know I could probably get paid a little more elsewhere (probably 10% or so). Stability and integrity matter a lot to me.
That's gonna be a no, dawg.
Generally? That's bad leadership.
Maybe somebody has some insight into this: why does this succeed in getting people to quit, since that's the obvious gambit? Why do people not just refuse to come back and get fired for insubordination or whatever? Do you not get unemployment benefits for getting fired for that reason (ignoring that unemployment is a pittance compared to their salaries), or are they packaging these people out with attractive severances or something?
Because people need stable incomes and healthcare, so they start applying for jobs and get them. People aren't quitting to be unemployed.
Honestly, IDK. My company is moving their office slightly further away from me. This will add much more commute time because of the location though. I'm already looking for a new job but if I don't find one by then I'm certainly not going in. We worked 100% remote for over 3 years. I'll find out what the consequences are.
My situation will be a bit different though since the office location is moving. Seems unreasonable that they'd be able to deny unemployment because of that.
Depending on the country you live in, you should check for mobility clauses in your contract. In many EU countries moving the location of your work requires an employer to come to a “reasonable” agreement with the employer or treat the request as a redundancy (with redundancy pay etc).
They need to find their next job first
Always
It's usually just enough severance to make it worth it. It'll be like a month of pay maybe which is worth 6-8 months of unemployment.
And honestly...if they offer a month or two of health insurance on top, you have to take to avoid the cobra fees.
It's usually an easy choice to take severance.
You get sign on shares when joining, but they don't mature for 2 years. Leave/get fired before the 2 years is up, you forfeit the shares.
Staff turnover at the 2yr tenure mark was crazy. Well over 50% jumped ship as soon as they hit 2yrs.
Wasn't there talk of a mass strike in the U.S., at some point? We should do that.
Inb4 my company follows suit. Just like they want to with IT, AI, Cloud infrastructure (we own our stack almost entirely).
Good guy Amazon: Makes employees return in-person to prevent them from using proprietary remote work software.
I really love to work from home. But I also understand IT security is dramatically complicated by user's working on their private network connection or even private client devices. Teamwork also suffers noticably in some professions.
But I also understand IT security is dramatically complicated by user's working on their private network connection.
It really isn’t.
Confident. I like that.
I work in telecomms, major strategic projects. I dont have an office to return to, for 9 years I have had no office. My computer can be wiped remotely amd requires 2fa to connect to the vpn.
We have never had a security incident that wasnt someone's laptop being stolen.
Dont boot lick. This is not rocket science.
Yeah but this guy is a "consultant" he is here to fix your "situation"
🤡
So how did those laptops get stolen? Would that have been possible if their users worked on a local client at the office?
Rocket science is a fucking joke compared to secure IT practices. You saying that, proves that you know neither well enough to participate in this discourse. Most users would operate more securely if their client device was also physically restricted. If you don't understand that, that's the reason you are not making decisions. I'm sorry to be so blunt.
There are highly capable technical people that can securely work from home, but this is not the average user. If you don't recognize that, you are probably just cheering for your own personal comfort right now. I get comfort, but don't be blind to reality
So how did those laptops get stolen? Would that have been possible if their users worked on a local client at the office?
Yes laptops can be stolen from offices. It would be pretty trivial to do so in fact in most cases. In an all on site office it’d be a juicy target too because now all these laptops are in the same place.
Rocket science is a fucking joke compared to secure IT practices. You saying that, proves that you know neither well enough to participate in this discourse.
It is abundantly clear that you have little to no knowledge or experience in modern IT security practices. And before you ask, no, having watched Mr. Robot all the way through does not count.
There are highly capable technical people that can securely work from home, but this is not the average user.
You absolutely do not have to be highly technical to work securely from home. That’s just silly. You only need highly technical people to ensure the people who work from home can do so securely.
pretty trivial to do so
Yup. We have to "badge in" to our office, but the secretary will buzz you in if you ask nicely. Also, if you walk in with confidence as someone is entering/leaving, they'll hold the door for you. Or go in around the EOD when the cleaning staff are there and they'll let you in. All it takes is a very small amount of social engineering and you could steal a ton of stuff from my company.
But most people don't lose stuff like laptops at home or in their office, they lose them when traveling. Maybe you drop by a coffee shop on the way to work and someone filches your bag, or maybe you take a flight for work and someone swipes it while you're throwing something in the trash. They're not going to break into your home or your office, they'll snatch it while you're out in public and not paying particularly close attention.
Lad just stop you are talking nonsense, everyone worked from home for 2 years and nothing happened
Nothing you know about maybe
It’s the type of confidence that comes with years of experience in IT security and compliance for global enterprises.
Likewise :) Sad to learn you are one of those that act confidentially while being blind. I'm the guy that cleans up after you.
Oh no you don’t, not likewise. There’s zero chance you have any real world experience under your belt, that much you’ve made very clear. You’ve already let it slip that you’re just a consultant lol. A glorified salesman playing around in SMB land no doubt. At best, maybe an old fart who actually dipped his toes into IT generalism two decades ago before getting out of the game and into consulting? I know the type lol.
It’s probably best if you were to stay in your lane and let the professionals worry about security.
Exactly. We use a VPN to connect to anything somewhat important, and anything truly important requires manual access and approvals. I'm in a pretty senior dev position, and if I lost my laptop:
they'd have to break my password or biometric login (disk is encrypted) - with this they get access to most of our code, but no secrets
they'd need to hack my phone to access any internal documentation or test environments due to 2FA
they'd need to hack my password manager to access anything non-documentation - code repos, prod logs, etc
they'd need to hack someone else's machine to get access to actual prod data, which is probably what they really want
And I'm not doing anything special here (and I'm certainly not a security professional), that's everyone's machines due to company policy. We also don't handle anything particularly sensitive, the most sensitive thing I have is proprietary algorithms, and we'd sue anyone if we suspected they stole our code.
Oh, and if they try to run something sus, it'll send a report to our IT dept. I actually got contacted by our IT dept because I ran something unfamiliar (I really like my CLI tools), so they added an exception after personally verifying with me that it's not a hack.
We have teams across the globe, both inside the org and outside, and we haven't had any issues with security, and we do regular audits. Our security team isn't particularly special either, I'm sure many other companies have much tighter security than we do.
I wish you knew how stupid you look for writing that
Oh brother read the room why don’t ya. It’s not too late to delete this lmao.
I rather let it stand for the handful of people that need to know 95% of the room are challenged in their ability to evaluate the situation
You got public humiliation kink or something? No judgement lol.
Thank goodness for the downvote system so your comments can be safely buried where they can’t misinform people.
Maybe you should pay attention then.
Did chatgpt write this shite lol
Just because you can perform a job from home, doesn't mean it's ideal for performance. With jobs like surgeons or bus drivers it's more obvious, but the cut is not as clear as people like it to be.
I would hope it doesn't take you long to imagine someone who has access to information about you where you would prefer it not be open on their laptop on their kitchen table at home while guests are around.
I'm not trying to defend Amazon. This is an active subject at many companies.
Security starts at the developer, you have to be deluded to think otherwise.
NDA, bulletproof'ed laptops, kernel-level-oversight, VPNs are just mitigations.
Everything is just mitigations. There is no zero risk.
You are making up theoretical situations to shill your point...
Why are you bootlickong this hard?
If job requires in person, market it as such and hire as such. Pretending that 90% of paper pushers need office is disingenous at best
I work in consulting. I don't have to make up anything. Be angry, but some people are trying to play their role in capitalism successfully.
I work in consulting.
Haha lol OK? Literally notorious bootlickers... I hope you are a partner. Because otherwise you are bootlicking for against yourself
Be angry, but some people are trying to play their role in capitalism successfully.
Yes everybody here who doesn't agree with you is a poor entry level employee from a shiti state U.
🤡🤡🤡
I'm not talking about myself in your last quote. I consult clients on their operational and technological challenges. I see a lot. Of course, you might also consult similar amounts of clients and you can see that their largest deficit contributor is that people aren't taking their work home, but that's not what I'm getting from you.
You just seem angry, because you can't stomach that there are valid reasons for you to move out of your comfort zone. Sorry.
You keep trying to make this about me?
Why?
We are talking a corporate policy...
Weird angle to argue.
Also tells me you have no point beyond shilling this.
Just because you can perform a job from home, doesn't mean it's ideal for performance. With
You're refuting an assertion made by NO one.
No one said all jobs can be done remotely. When the site consolidated equipment or media somewhere, and there's no way to manipulate stuff remotely then - of course - it's not a remote capable job.
We're ignoring that buses are just big drones and surgery has been performed by servos or volunteers at the direction of a specialist far away. But you make a point, as has been made before, that a lever which cannot yet be pulled by a remote action needs an agile meatbag to do so.
The point that has been made - oh god, thousands of times - is that jobs that can be remote, should be. And that egotistical managers needing to feel better by staring at asses in chairs all day and knowing they were forced there through threat of food insecurity, that's not really a justification.
Amazon's demanded its devs come back into the office for no value, despite the personality type of those devs, an objective assessment of the workpace they're forced into - toxic - and the need to live within commute range to get there, limiting housing options for the workers and severely limiting the talent pool for companies. These are people who can, would, will and did the same work better and happier in an environment of their choosing - be it central office or personal office. Now they have no choice but to bend to the will of their boomer-esque managers who forgot it's not the 1900s anymore.
For remote-capable jobs, the only reason workers need to take risks and spend more money to physically commute is purely and simply egos of bad managers.
That's it. The dead weight they need to shed was in the office the whole time.
If you believe every developer at Amazon, including AWS, might as well permanently work from home, globally, then I just can't take your opinion seriously. Sorry. All points have been made
I also understand IT security is dramatically complicated by user's working on their private network connection or even private client devices.
As otherwise mentioned, it's actually straightforward.
I work in the daytime on some pretty well-secured stuff; not "secret squirrel" but "people data" stuff. There's a LOT of forms to sign, and they want to ensure you're not working on a shared patio but in a real, dedicated office space that is ergonomically optimal and private, with a few other rules, but the effort that started as a panic on COVID day 1 proved workable and they're going with it. They sold the offices in the dank ugly building. And this org is actually insanely cautious and works with cautious entities, and even they could work it.
At night I work for a different company on different shipped gear... and a KVM switch to go from one set to the other. They're all segregated and secure, and the night job I've had for 22 years with only two invites to fly down to the office for a visit in that time. Barbecues, actually.
I have a lovely view of the river.
It works. You have to be sensible and secure, and then you're golden.
I don't even disagree with you. However...
There are thousands of people at home with access to privileged information and they have never heard of a KVM switch. It's insane how blind to reality some people here are. If you have never been in an online meeting where a participant had their camera off, mic on, was AFK, and their child fucked around on the laptop, because they never lock it, then you really have no fucking idea about security at scale.
Just because some people here love to work from home, doesn't mean it applies to an entire corporation as large as Amazon
cutting head count without “firing” people. standard capitalism bullshit.
stop using amazon. let it rot.
It's easy to avoid buying things from Amazon. It's hard to avoid AWS. It would be insane to try to suss out what provider everyone that I buy stuff from uses, and their third party relationships. Regulation is better.
Yep, try browsing with ublock origin blocking all Amazon domains. Lots of things break because AWS is so large.
In the old days people used to have their own servers...
And you can still buy them...
And the cloud really isn't cheaper...
But whatever, it's ubiquitous today. Maybe someday people will wake the F up.
Exactly. This is just more failures of govt to constrain and regulate.
I mean... Yes but also no.
Amazon have gone to crap in recent years and has become a more upmarket Wish or Temu. Much of their storefront is full of Chinese knock-off brands these days.
What Amazon does offer is somewhat reliable next (and sometimes same) day delivery. The only way you can get something faster is by travelling to a brick & mortar shop and buying in person.
As for AWS, aren't we forgetting that Microsoft, IBM, Oracle, Google, even Alibaba and Huawei have their own cloud solutions?
The best way to do this is to correlate downtime with main providers. If a cloud provider goes down when AWS has outages on related services, it's probably using an AWS service.
Yup. They want people to quit.
That links says only a quarter did it because they wanted people to quit, so it suggests that chances are this is not the reason Amazon is doing it...and you're posting while claiming it factually proves this is their motivation? Pretty deceiving.
I personally read this as "one quarter admit they did it to get people to quit". If you think these folks are always transparent and honest, think again. They're just trying to say whatever gets them the least amount of bad PR
This is effectively a layoff without benefits.
Your position hinges on the survey not being anonymous. I clicked through and found nothing that claims it was not anonymous, and these things are normally done anonymously for exactly the reason you point out: less honesty.
Do you have anything to back this up or is it simply that holding this belief helps confirm what you already believe to be true?
Which works fine as long as you don't mind keeping your worst employees, while all your best ones quit, which is generally the opposite of how it works during layoffs
It does also work for them that they retain employees who are more likely to put up with their bullshit. They can cull the truly lazy ones at a later date as required, either by firing them or finding a similarly bullshit change that they're likely to be adverse to.
I enjoy how Amazon talks a big game about how great they are for the environment and their pledge to stop climate change, then they force workers to commute to the office who have been happily doing their jobs over the internet.
Yah this is literally the most basic shit any company can do to be more "green", cut costs, have access to a larger worker base...
Nope. Because the CEOs are all more concerned with the commercial real estate market than running their company efficiently.
It's shocking how many people have honestly bought this. I mean, I'm sure there is some truth to it and maybe somewhere, someone forced people to come back because of some real estate interests... But the CEO of Amazon almost certainly gains to benefit much more from a rise in price of Amazon stock than any real estate they might own. And even if it was the case, I dont think the board would be very happy about it.
It might be the wrong move, and maybe it is being done to get people to quit, but it's being done because they think it means more money from Amazon.
I think they are mostly doing this as a stealth layoff. It's been a pretty popular strategy lately.
The joke is, you get the good people to leave first this way. Be it estate or layoff, it's a bad move either way.
So why do they do it still? Only thing i can think of is the powerplay. CEO types are sometimes as developed as a child, mentally.
Also Andy Jassey does not look like he is able to effectively groom himself, so that tracks.
Because from you run a mega corp, you don't care about talent. You need complaint slaves!
Yeah and this whole agenda of RTO rolled out worldwide directly after Davos 2023 when a bunch of CEOs were tweeting about it from there. But noticing this makes you a conspiracy theorist.
They illegally fired the very employees who led the effort to pressure the company internally to do more on climate.. All their climate posturing ever since has been bullshit.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/29/amazon-settles-with-employees-who-said-they-were-fired-over-activism.html
The employees hired during full remote are now going to have to change their lives around going into the office. Tech employees are especially fucked because they either have to stay or they have to attempt to join the flood of tech employees looking for remote jobs (which was caused by the execs doing layoffs at tech companies).
There should be protections against hiring someone remote and then forcing them into the office as soon as you want to lay people off by forcing them to quit so you don't have to compensate them.
In some countries, there are already.
In others, it will be up to courts to decide whether this is illegally firing staff. That said, good luck getting equal legal representation to these trillion-dollar companies.
So yes, basically, it's legal.
That’ll teach us plebs. We’d better start licking some serious Amazon boot so they deign to let some of us earn enough to not die.
Thats assuming those full remote employees are anywhere near an office.
The worst is those people who bought houses out of town at the top of the real estate market because they believed the propaganda about WFH being permanent. However I never trusted C-level execs or directors not to renege on this, so I didn't do that.
The beatings will continue until moral improves.
God I hate Amazon now. They're basically Wal-Mart these days with half the results being sponsored (advertisements) - and you see that even if you pay for Prime. There are some things you can only get there, but otherwise, since all e-commerce is converging, I don't see the point of enabling their bad behavior. But whichever global corporate enterprise you take your business to, they will likely have a similar mindset.
And the search engine is shit, with non-existent filters. So you browse for longer and buy more shit you never needed.
Fuck Amazon.
Trying to make those yearly office space rentals worth it
Aren't they still cheaper if nobody uses them?
Maybe. Real estate is flaky game at best
Ok, but I'm still not going back to wearing pants.
They should be charged an emissions tax and worker safety tax since driving to/from work is one of the leading causes of death for working adults
Seems like covid's overall impact on society won't be as long lived as we thought. The whole work from home thing was almost seen as revolutionary as it would save office space and expenses. But it seems companies care far more for control than even profit.
Don't give up so easily
We can't really give up. But I am a shit activist...
I drive by the Boeing strike every day and I do my part and I hunk twice quickly! Do your part guys! Hunk! It matters!
It's not your job today, but it could be you there tomorrow at 8am wet and soggy from the rain and fog that continually falls in the PNW.
Honk like you just crashed on that big barrel of stuff burning. They burn stuff to stay dry and warm. It's cold out here....not yet but give two more months and it will be freezing temps.
Companies want profit but the people who run them want control. Sooner or later the companies will reconfigure themselves to benefit the bottom line.
Cool, glad I didn't listen to my parents, who wanted me to work for Amazon. Yeah, I probably could've made a ton more, but I'm making plenty where I'm at.
I work 2x in office, less if I have a somewhat passable reason to not go in. And I can WFH for a few weeks at a time if I need to travel for whatever reason. It's nice working for someone that somewhat respects me.
"Probably could've made a ton more" - no chance of that working for Amazon.
You dodged a lot of pain and loooong hours, 7 days a week.
For now. Soon it's going to be: "Well, Amazon is calling people back, maybe we should, too."
Well, the day my boss says that is the day I submit my 2 weeks notice, and probably half of our dept. We were hired with the promise of always having 3 days at home most days, and my boss kept to that, even pushing back against company policy that tried to shift to 3 days in office.
The day your boss does that is the day they want to lay people off on the cheap, because it's a stupid decision with no measurable benefit over the 3 day minimum most of the big tech companies seem to have settled on.
And that's fine, if my boss changes so radically that he'd go back on years of doing uncomfortable things to keep his word, I know it's not a company I'd feel comfortable working at anymore anyway. Some things they've done:
In other words, he has kept his word for the few years I've worked here, and we've recently been getting praise from the executive team on company-wide calls (well, basically "product X has turned into a primary focus for our org's strategy going forward," where X is the thing I work on and was criticized just a few years).
If my boss leaves the org, I'll probably start looking for jobs. But until then, I'm very happy where I am, even if I know I could probably get paid a little more elsewhere (probably 10% or so). Stability and integrity matter a lot to me.
That's gonna be a no, dawg.
Generally? That's bad leadership.
Maybe somebody has some insight into this: why does this succeed in getting people to quit, since that's the obvious gambit? Why do people not just refuse to come back and get fired for insubordination or whatever? Do you not get unemployment benefits for getting fired for that reason (ignoring that unemployment is a pittance compared to their salaries), or are they packaging these people out with attractive severances or something?
Because people need stable incomes and healthcare, so they start applying for jobs and get them. People aren't quitting to be unemployed.
Honestly, IDK. My company is moving their office slightly further away from me. This will add much more commute time because of the location though. I'm already looking for a new job but if I don't find one by then I'm certainly not going in. We worked 100% remote for over 3 years. I'll find out what the consequences are.
My situation will be a bit different though since the office location is moving. Seems unreasonable that they'd be able to deny unemployment because of that.
Depending on the country you live in, you should check for mobility clauses in your contract. In many EU countries moving the location of your work requires an employer to come to a “reasonable” agreement with the employer or treat the request as a redundancy (with redundancy pay etc).
They need to find their next job first
Always
It's usually just enough severance to make it worth it. It'll be like a month of pay maybe which is worth 6-8 months of unemployment.
And honestly...if they offer a month or two of health insurance on top, you have to take to avoid the cobra fees.
It's usually an easy choice to take severance.
You get sign on shares when joining, but they don't mature for 2 years. Leave/get fired before the 2 years is up, you forfeit the shares.
Staff turnover at the 2yr tenure mark was crazy. Well over 50% jumped ship as soon as they hit 2yrs.
Wasn't there talk of a mass strike in the U.S., at some point? We should do that.
Inb4 my company follows suit. Just like they want to with IT, AI, Cloud infrastructure (we own our stack almost entirely).
Good guy Amazon: Makes employees return in-person to prevent them from using proprietary remote work software.
I really love to work from home. But I also understand IT security is dramatically complicated by user's working on their private network connection or even private client devices. Teamwork also suffers noticably in some professions.
It really isn’t.
Confident. I like that.
I work in telecomms, major strategic projects. I dont have an office to return to, for 9 years I have had no office. My computer can be wiped remotely amd requires 2fa to connect to the vpn.
We have never had a security incident that wasnt someone's laptop being stolen.
Dont boot lick. This is not rocket science.
Yeah but this guy is a "consultant" he is here to fix your "situation"
🤡
So how did those laptops get stolen? Would that have been possible if their users worked on a local client at the office?
Rocket science is a fucking joke compared to secure IT practices. You saying that, proves that you know neither well enough to participate in this discourse. Most users would operate more securely if their client device was also physically restricted. If you don't understand that, that's the reason you are not making decisions. I'm sorry to be so blunt.
There are highly capable technical people that can securely work from home, but this is not the average user. If you don't recognize that, you are probably just cheering for your own personal comfort right now. I get comfort, but don't be blind to reality
Yes laptops can be stolen from offices. It would be pretty trivial to do so in fact in most cases. In an all on site office it’d be a juicy target too because now all these laptops are in the same place.
It is abundantly clear that you have little to no knowledge or experience in modern IT security practices. And before you ask, no, having watched Mr. Robot all the way through does not count.
You absolutely do not have to be highly technical to work securely from home. That’s just silly. You only need highly technical people to ensure the people who work from home can do so securely.
Yup. We have to "badge in" to our office, but the secretary will buzz you in if you ask nicely. Also, if you walk in with confidence as someone is entering/leaving, they'll hold the door for you. Or go in around the EOD when the cleaning staff are there and they'll let you in. All it takes is a very small amount of social engineering and you could steal a ton of stuff from my company.
But most people don't lose stuff like laptops at home or in their office, they lose them when traveling. Maybe you drop by a coffee shop on the way to work and someone filches your bag, or maybe you take a flight for work and someone swipes it while you're throwing something in the trash. They're not going to break into your home or your office, they'll snatch it while you're out in public and not paying particularly close attention.
Lad just stop you are talking nonsense, everyone worked from home for 2 years and nothing happened
Nothing you know about maybe
It’s the type of confidence that comes with years of experience in IT security and compliance for global enterprises.
Likewise :) Sad to learn you are one of those that act confidentially while being blind. I'm the guy that cleans up after you.
Oh no you don’t, not likewise. There’s zero chance you have any real world experience under your belt, that much you’ve made very clear. You’ve already let it slip that you’re just a consultant lol. A glorified salesman playing around in SMB land no doubt. At best, maybe an old fart who actually dipped his toes into IT generalism two decades ago before getting out of the game and into consulting? I know the type lol.
It’s probably best if you were to stay in your lane and let the professionals worry about security.
Exactly. We use a VPN to connect to anything somewhat important, and anything truly important requires manual access and approvals. I'm in a pretty senior dev position, and if I lost my laptop:
And I'm not doing anything special here (and I'm certainly not a security professional), that's everyone's machines due to company policy. We also don't handle anything particularly sensitive, the most sensitive thing I have is proprietary algorithms, and we'd sue anyone if we suspected they stole our code.
Oh, and if they try to run something sus, it'll send a report to our IT dept. I actually got contacted by our IT dept because I ran something unfamiliar (I really like my CLI tools), so they added an exception after personally verifying with me that it's not a hack.
We have teams across the globe, both inside the org and outside, and we haven't had any issues with security, and we do regular audits. Our security team isn't particularly special either, I'm sure many other companies have much tighter security than we do.
I wish you knew how stupid you look for writing that
Oh brother read the room why don’t ya. It’s not too late to delete this lmao.
I rather let it stand for the handful of people that need to know 95% of the room are challenged in their ability to evaluate the situation
You got public humiliation kink or something? No judgement lol.
Thank goodness for the downvote system so your comments can be safely buried where they can’t misinform people.
Maybe you should pay attention then.
Did chatgpt write this shite lol
Just because you can perform a job from home, doesn't mean it's ideal for performance. With jobs like surgeons or bus drivers it's more obvious, but the cut is not as clear as people like it to be.
I would hope it doesn't take you long to imagine someone who has access to information about you where you would prefer it not be open on their laptop on their kitchen table at home while guests are around.
I'm not trying to defend Amazon. This is an active subject at many companies.
Security starts at the developer, you have to be deluded to think otherwise.
NDA, bulletproof'ed laptops, kernel-level-oversight, VPNs are just mitigations.
Everything is just mitigations. There is no zero risk.
You are making up theoretical situations to shill your point...
Why are you bootlickong this hard?
If job requires in person, market it as such and hire as such. Pretending that 90% of paper pushers need office is disingenous at best
I work in consulting. I don't have to make up anything. Be angry, but some people are trying to play their role in capitalism successfully.
Haha lol OK? Literally notorious bootlickers... I hope you are a partner. Because otherwise you are bootlicking for against yourself
Yes everybody here who doesn't agree with you is a poor entry level employee from a shiti state U.
🤡🤡🤡
I'm not talking about myself in your last quote. I consult clients on their operational and technological challenges. I see a lot. Of course, you might also consult similar amounts of clients and you can see that their largest deficit contributor is that people aren't taking their work home, but that's not what I'm getting from you.
You just seem angry, because you can't stomach that there are valid reasons for you to move out of your comfort zone. Sorry.
You keep trying to make this about me?
Why?
We are talking a corporate policy...
Weird angle to argue.
Also tells me you have no point beyond shilling this.
You're refuting an assertion made by NO one.
No one said all jobs can be done remotely. When the site consolidated equipment or media somewhere, and there's no way to manipulate stuff remotely then - of course - it's not a remote capable job.
We're ignoring that buses are just big drones and surgery has been performed by servos or volunteers at the direction of a specialist far away. But you make a point, as has been made before, that a lever which cannot yet be pulled by a remote action needs an agile meatbag to do so.
The point that has been made - oh god, thousands of times - is that jobs that can be remote, should be. And that egotistical managers needing to feel better by staring at asses in chairs all day and knowing they were forced there through threat of food insecurity, that's not really a justification.
Amazon's demanded its devs come back into the office for no value, despite the personality type of those devs, an objective assessment of the workpace they're forced into - toxic - and the need to live within commute range to get there, limiting housing options for the workers and severely limiting the talent pool for companies. These are people who can, would, will and did the same work better and happier in an environment of their choosing - be it central office or personal office. Now they have no choice but to bend to the will of their boomer-esque managers who forgot it's not the 1900s anymore.
For remote-capable jobs, the only reason workers need to take risks and spend more money to physically commute is purely and simply egos of bad managers.
That's it. The dead weight they need to shed was in the office the whole time.
If you believe every developer at Amazon, including AWS, might as well permanently work from home, globally, then I just can't take your opinion seriously. Sorry. All points have been made
As otherwise mentioned, it's actually straightforward.
I work in the daytime on some pretty well-secured stuff; not "secret squirrel" but "people data" stuff. There's a LOT of forms to sign, and they want to ensure you're not working on a shared patio but in a real, dedicated office space that is ergonomically optimal and private, with a few other rules, but the effort that started as a panic on COVID day 1 proved workable and they're going with it. They sold the offices in the dank ugly building. And this org is actually insanely cautious and works with cautious entities, and even they could work it.
At night I work for a different company on different shipped gear... and a KVM switch to go from one set to the other. They're all segregated and secure, and the night job I've had for 22 years with only two invites to fly down to the office for a visit in that time. Barbecues, actually.
I have a lovely view of the river.
It works. You have to be sensible and secure, and then you're golden.
I don't even disagree with you. However...
There are thousands of people at home with access to privileged information and they have never heard of a KVM switch. It's insane how blind to reality some people here are. If you have never been in an online meeting where a participant had their camera off, mic on, was AFK, and their child fucked around on the laptop, because they never lock it, then you really have no fucking idea about security at scale.
Just because some people here love to work from home, doesn't mean it applies to an entire corporation as large as Amazon