If you leak sensitive military documents just because you can't stand losing an online argument, your voting rights and driving licence should be revoked. You are simply too stupid to exist in normal society.
Treating people as sub-human - no longer with the same basic human rights, like the right to vote, as others - just for committing a crime, is an extremely dangerous fascist road to go down.
Criminals exist, they are people, and they have as much right to take part in the democratic process as anybody else. Equality is the cornerstone of democracy.
The only exception I would make to this is cases of electoral fraud. If you are part of an attempt to manipulate the votes you should lose the right to vote.
Some countries other than the USA that have criminal disenfranchisement laws have them ONLY for crimes targeting the state/democratic order. As of 2012, Germany, Norway and Portugal are doing this. Though most countries just let their criminals vote.
criminals exist
hallo
criminals exist
hallo
I agree with you. Did you know that criminal disenfranchisement is not an invention of the USA? We turned it into an artform, to be sure, but it has a long history and is still a thing in many other countries (old article, couldn't find anything more recent easily).
I mean, criminals caught and put into jail by definition have less rights than someone free to walk anywhere.. though your actual point is taken.
By the way, no one here is arguing that criminals aren't people.
What about birds?
Pffh, we have no time to discuss mythology! We're here to save the world!
The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.
Now explain "first past the post", gerrymandering, or the D'Hondt method.
You're right. Instead, we should form suicide squads with them and send them to Ukraine to fight imperialism
Didn't they voluntarily give up their equality when they committed a crime? If they didn't give that up by their actions, then they couldn't be locked up at all. Violent crime could then potentially only be punished by a stern warning or a fine. Why are felons not allowed to own firearms in the US?
No, they did not. They aren't suddenly inhuman because of a crime. Crime is the effect not a cause. The fact is, it is well known that something as simple as a temperature increase leads to more crime. The taking away of rights for felons after they have done their time says that the government doesn't believe in Rehabilitation of criminals which is the reason prison was created instead of just killing them. The fact is that because felons lost the right to vote and such, the conditions they are in have become deplorable with no way to rectify it because assholes like you that have never seen the inside of a prison have more control over its condition than someone that was there for 10-20 years
Ok, I don't mind being called a fascist, but I'll be danged if I'm an asshole. I identify as a lady woman and therefore, should be referred to as a cunt. You're jumping about and making an argument from emotion. You're moving too fast to explain my views to me. Explain my views, again? Bringing up Putin was a asinine and humorous attempt to stay somewhere near the thread topic , but I can see those days are past. Let's both take a deep breath. If we don't talk about Putin or F-117s, we're both going to be warned by the mods that we are BOTH acting like cunts. They're pretty tolerant of tangents, but not that tolerant.
Everyone has an asshole, it's a gender neutral term
Wait, when people call others body parts, some people are reducing that other person to just that part and don't mean it metaphorically? Does everyone else know that there's these two ways of interpreting those insults? Why wasn't I taught this in school?
It makes the interpretation of some of those as sexist make some sense, though I've always seen each of them going along with a vague set of behaviors/traits.
Like a dick is aggressively cocky.
A pussy is a coward.
An asshole makes things shitty.
A cunt is an aggressive asshole that goes out of their way to ruin things.
An ass makes a fool of themselves.
A bitch makes their problems everyone else's problem. Not a body part, I know, but another one that gets called sexist.
I've always seen all of these as something someone of either gender can be.
Good point, don't take it seriously though. It's simply my opinion that being called a cunt is a feminine privilege. I just think it should be reserved for The Layyydeeez. It's a "safe space", IF YOU WILL.
Frankly your comment here means very little to me "lady woman". You say a stupid point, Prepare to be told off, I don't know what else to tell you. I live in a state that in the 1990's had conviction via Majority not unanimous jury. I don't take kindly to anyone saying their fellow man in unworthy of human rights. If they want to ban me so be it. I would rather be banned from every Lemmy instance, than have to see someone say something so far beyond what is a reasonable take, that you think democracy doesn't count for some people.
With that logic the fact that the government has criminalized an act makes everyone who does it "sub-human" or "voluntarily given up their equality to other people"?
I'm not sure that's a good road to go down. You don't give up anything when you commit a crime. The reason we can imprison/punish criminals is that the social contract includes being subject to the outcome of a fair trial.
Right...but now we've drilled down to discussing the many and exciting types of crime. Some times, while waiting for a trial, the man or woman accused of maiming/killing has made it clear that he or she would prefer to maim/kill some more. Let's call this the Putin type. Rare type, but it happens. So we prevent him or her from doing that. Do we agree that keeping Putin types locked up before trial is a good idea? What road are we going down, again?
Please be specific, I'm not sure we even are in disagreement on anything, because I'm not sure what you're arguing for or against. Putin type kept away from fire arms, yes/no? What are your premises?
You said criminals give up equality to other humans when they voluntarily choose to commit crimes.
I said all people are equal even if they break the law. The reason we can punish criminals is not because they give up equality or become sub human, but rather because the social contract includes justice.
I don't see how the type of crime or the type of punishment is relevant. I don't see what Putin has to do with this either.
It's a criminal offence. In a US wystem, that means no voting, driving of much of anyrhing else for around two decades.
No no you don't understand
They leak online documents because its usually Gaijin's braindead mods rambling about superior russian technology that gets implemented as invincible in game lol.
Also pretty much all these leaks are considered sensitive info, not top secret. It's not common on the internet, but really easy for many people in the military to access because its usually basic things like a flight manual.
Not to mention its also mostly retired or previous generation tech, so this material is probably coming from off service members anyway.
Hell even the China MBT "leak" wasn't illegal because it was already declassified.
It's not my fault that people are wrong on the internet
Voting rights should only be impacted in cases of electoral fraud. If you are part of a widespread campaign to illegally impact the vote then and only then should you lose voting rights
When I was in the Navy, during the mid 90's, I watched these things take off and do training tests or whatever they did. We watched them for hours. It occurred to me, watching them in perfect daylight and with a understanding of what I was watching, that if I didn't know what that was it could have easily been a UFO. And ever since then when someone tells me that they might have seen a UFO I tell them about watching that airplane and how UFO it looked taking off and doing maneuvers. Its shape and speed make it such a bizarre thing to see.
I saw some jet in 2010 at an airshow in Spangdahlem, pretty sure it was an F-22, transition from flying normally to what can only be described as standing on it's engines and flying through the air, horizontally, belly first. Evidently this was easy enough to be performed directly over the base at a very low altitude. Mindblowing.
"Easy enough"... but wasn't there a case where a pilot lost control doing that stunt, and the plane turned into a fireball just off-base?
pdf link or fake
This is teaching and maintaining standards of NCD leadership, rightchyah
wasn't that retired from combat in 2008? I get that the technology might still be classified, but by modern stealth, it's ancient
It was ITAR restricted and not sensitive. Every time I see this I just shake my head..
Yeah, that's what I thought. It's been 8+ years since I had to do anything ITAR so I couldn't remember if it also applied to information. From what I remember it explicitly controls products that are purpose built or components of defense systems (and by that I mean 'Arms').
While I'm sure Warthunder thought the best idea was to say "fuck that, we aren't touching this live wire with a 20 foot long insulated fiber glass pole" and the manual itself is export controlled (as it aids in use of the F-117 system) there isn't a new national security threat because of it being shared publicly. Part of the reason ITAR exists, if you make it difficult or impossible to obtain all the parts of a system, that system is going to have a hard time working correctly.
NATO sells the docs online lmao
Does anyone happen to have the specific persons handbook on how to operate a m1 Abrams?
WHY ARE THEYRE SIX PEDALS!
Manuver
If there are only four directions
Classified information or $10 manual again?
Other people have said it's a ten dollar manual but I never checked the sources 🤷
the user allegedly posted pages from a flight manual, which included information such as the location of the plane’s sensors, its engine specifications, and even its firing angles.
Probably nothing new to the people who would target an F-117 but still
Thanks for the sauce.
Has this really happened?
F-117 documents were leaked on War Thunder forums this week i think.
As a life-long fan of the F-117 (I played the F-19 and F-117 games by Microprose), was there anything of interest in those documents? Asking for a friend.
It's another flight manual like the Eurofighter DA.7 last week (iirc).
Oh man, you played too? There's dozens of us!
I remember having to learn how to use DOS commands to load the cd and start the game.
Back then it was on floppy disks!
I played the F-117 game on DosBox a few years ago, settings to full realism/full difficulty and it was surprisingly easy.
I also really miss the Microprose-style UIs in modern games, only few game developers put the work into making an immersive UI (one such positive example is the game "Highfleet").
Yeah get a load of that guy with his fancy CDs.
Mine was 5.25” floppies. (F19)
I’ve never tried it on an emu because I figured I don’t have the manual so I wouldn’t know what all the keys did :(
Was Tank Platoon also microprose? That game was awesome too.
I only had Lemmings on 5.25, I think they came in a pack of promotional disks from my dad's office. The brokers had to stay busy in between avoiding another 1987 Black Monday.
Lemmings was also a great game. I thought that was early 90s though.
Also had Loom and Monkey Island on 5.25.
I don't think so. Technically it was only classified for certain foreign entities, and even an incredibly poor spy network would have been able to get access to them if they really wanted them.
Gaijin nuked that thread likely out of an abundance of caution. They never seen to get in trouble for this thing happening so my guess is they have the proper authorities on speed dial.
So many times over the years. The devs had made multiple public statements that they will not use the information or implement it in game, so as not to encourage it, yet people keep doing it
The information being used in the game is FAR less important than being right on a Internet forum, apparently
This time its not even to win an argument the comment is just "here's the flight manual, please implement the plane"
Which is even worse than what you'd think because the plane looks very cool but its purpose is nowhere near the type of gameplay that war thunder has.
He has no social intelligence or relationship with his parents, so he must reveal this info for the ladies. Do you wish to keep this young impudent from the layyydeeez? How cruel.
As much as it pains me to say this, such an outstanding gentleman would refer to the fairer sex as "ffffeeeeemaaaales".
Excellent point. How about "fillies", pronounced "fillllieeeez"? With a sly tip of the Lockmart brand tactical sunglasses ?
Sounds like we need to leak fake info that matches whats currently in the game so they'll change it.
If you leak sensitive military documents just because you can't stand losing an online argument, your voting rights and driving licence should be revoked. You are simply too stupid to exist in normal society.
Treating people as sub-human - no longer with the same basic human rights, like the right to vote, as others - just for committing a crime, is an extremely dangerous fascist road to go down.
Criminals exist, they are people, and they have as much right to take part in the democratic process as anybody else. Equality is the cornerstone of democracy.
The only exception I would make to this is cases of electoral fraud. If you are part of an attempt to manipulate the votes you should lose the right to vote.
Some countries other than the USA that have criminal disenfranchisement laws have them ONLY for crimes targeting the state/democratic order. As of 2012, Germany, Norway and Portugal are doing this. Though most countries just let their criminals vote.
hallo
I agree with you. Did you know that criminal disenfranchisement is not an invention of the USA? We turned it into an artform, to be sure, but it has a long history and is still a thing in many other countries (old article, couldn't find anything more recent easily).
I mean, criminals caught and put into jail by definition have less rights than someone free to walk anywhere.. though your actual point is taken.
By the way, no one here is arguing that criminals aren't people.
What about birds?
Pffh, we have no time to discuss mythology! We're here to save the world!
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 21.3:
Now explain "first past the post", gerrymandering, or the D'Hondt method.
You're right. Instead, we should form suicide squads with them and send them to Ukraine to fight imperialism
Didn't they voluntarily give up their equality when they committed a crime? If they didn't give that up by their actions, then they couldn't be locked up at all. Violent crime could then potentially only be punished by a stern warning or a fine. Why are felons not allowed to own firearms in the US?
No, they did not. They aren't suddenly inhuman because of a crime. Crime is the effect not a cause. The fact is, it is well known that something as simple as a temperature increase leads to more crime. The taking away of rights for felons after they have done their time says that the government doesn't believe in Rehabilitation of criminals which is the reason prison was created instead of just killing them. The fact is that because felons lost the right to vote and such, the conditions they are in have become deplorable with no way to rectify it because assholes like you that have never seen the inside of a prison have more control over its condition than someone that was there for 10-20 years
Ok, I don't mind being called a fascist, but I'll be danged if I'm an asshole. I identify as a lady woman and therefore, should be referred to as a cunt. You're jumping about and making an argument from emotion. You're moving too fast to explain my views to me. Explain my views, again? Bringing up Putin was a asinine and humorous attempt to stay somewhere near the thread topic , but I can see those days are past. Let's both take a deep breath. If we don't talk about Putin or F-117s, we're both going to be warned by the mods that we are BOTH acting like cunts. They're pretty tolerant of tangents, but not that tolerant.
Everyone has an asshole, it's a gender neutral term
Wait, when people call others body parts, some people are reducing that other person to just that part and don't mean it metaphorically? Does everyone else know that there's these two ways of interpreting those insults? Why wasn't I taught this in school?
It makes the interpretation of some of those as sexist make some sense, though I've always seen each of them going along with a vague set of behaviors/traits.
Like a dick is aggressively cocky.
A pussy is a coward.
An asshole makes things shitty.
A cunt is an aggressive asshole that goes out of their way to ruin things.
An ass makes a fool of themselves.
A bitch makes their problems everyone else's problem. Not a body part, I know, but another one that gets called sexist.
I've always seen all of these as something someone of either gender can be.
Good point, don't take it seriously though. It's simply my opinion that being called a cunt is a feminine privilege. I just think it should be reserved for The Layyydeeez. It's a "safe space", IF YOU WILL.
Frankly your comment here means very little to me "lady woman". You say a stupid point, Prepare to be told off, I don't know what else to tell you. I live in a state that in the 1990's had conviction via Majority not unanimous jury. I don't take kindly to anyone saying their fellow man in unworthy of human rights. If they want to ban me so be it. I would rather be banned from every Lemmy instance, than have to see someone say something so far beyond what is a reasonable take, that you think democracy doesn't count for some people.
With that logic the fact that the government has criminalized an act makes everyone who does it "sub-human" or "voluntarily given up their equality to other people"?
I'm not sure that's a good road to go down. You don't give up anything when you commit a crime. The reason we can imprison/punish criminals is that the social contract includes being subject to the outcome of a fair trial.
Right...but now we've drilled down to discussing the many and exciting types of crime. Some times, while waiting for a trial, the man or woman accused of maiming/killing has made it clear that he or she would prefer to maim/kill some more. Let's call this the Putin type. Rare type, but it happens. So we prevent him or her from doing that. Do we agree that keeping Putin types locked up before trial is a good idea? What road are we going down, again? Please be specific, I'm not sure we even are in disagreement on anything, because I'm not sure what you're arguing for or against. Putin type kept away from fire arms, yes/no? What are your premises?
You said criminals give up equality to other humans when they voluntarily choose to commit crimes.
I said all people are equal even if they break the law. The reason we can punish criminals is not because they give up equality or become sub human, but rather because the social contract includes justice.
I don't see how the type of crime or the type of punishment is relevant. I don't see what Putin has to do with this either.
It's a criminal offence. In a US wystem, that means no voting, driving of much of anyrhing else for around two decades.
No no you don't understand
They leak online documents because its usually Gaijin's braindead mods rambling about superior russian technology that gets implemented as invincible in game lol.
Also pretty much all these leaks are considered sensitive info, not top secret. It's not common on the internet, but really easy for many people in the military to access because its usually basic things like a flight manual.
Not to mention its also mostly retired or previous generation tech, so this material is probably coming from off service members anyway.
Hell even the China MBT "leak" wasn't illegal because it was already declassified.
It's not my fault that people are wrong on the internet
Voting rights should only be impacted in cases of electoral fraud. If you are part of a widespread campaign to illegally impact the vote then and only then should you lose voting rights
What was it this time
Engine and sensor specs for the F-117
When I was in the Navy, during the mid 90's, I watched these things take off and do training tests or whatever they did. We watched them for hours. It occurred to me, watching them in perfect daylight and with a understanding of what I was watching, that if I didn't know what that was it could have easily been a UFO. And ever since then when someone tells me that they might have seen a UFO I tell them about watching that airplane and how UFO it looked taking off and doing maneuvers. Its shape and speed make it such a bizarre thing to see.
I saw some jet in 2010 at an airshow in Spangdahlem, pretty sure it was an F-22, transition from flying normally to what can only be described as standing on it's engines and flying through the air, horizontally, belly first. Evidently this was easy enough to be performed directly over the base at a very low altitude. Mindblowing.
"Easy enough"... but wasn't there a case where a pilot lost control doing that stunt, and the plane turned into a fireball just off-base?
pdf link or fake
This is teaching and maintaining standards of NCD leadership, rightchyah
wasn't that retired from combat in 2008? I get that the technology might still be classified, but by modern stealth, it's ancient
It was ITAR restricted and not sensitive. Every time I see this I just shake my head..
Yeah, that's what I thought. It's been 8+ years since I had to do anything ITAR so I couldn't remember if it also applied to information. From what I remember it explicitly controls products that are purpose built or components of defense systems (and by that I mean 'Arms').
While I'm sure Warthunder thought the best idea was to say "fuck that, we aren't touching this live wire with a 20 foot long insulated fiber glass pole" and the manual itself is export controlled (as it aids in use of the F-117 system) there isn't a new national security threat because of it being shared publicly. Part of the reason ITAR exists, if you make it difficult or impossible to obtain all the parts of a system, that system is going to have a hard time working correctly.
NATO sells the docs online lmao
Does anyone happen to have the specific persons handbook on how to operate a m1 Abrams?
WHY ARE THEYRE SIX PEDALS!
Manuver
If there are only four directions
Classified information or $10 manual again?
Other people have said it's a ten dollar manual but I never checked the sources 🤷
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/the-war-thunder-forum-has-once-again-been-used-to-share-restricted-plane-documentation-this-time-about-the-f-117-nighthawk/ar-AA1gAVs9
Probably nothing new to the people who would target an F-117 but still
Thanks for the sauce.
Has this really happened?
F-117 documents were leaked on War Thunder forums this week i think.
As a life-long fan of the F-117 (I played the F-19 and F-117 games by Microprose), was there anything of interest in those documents? Asking for a friend.
It's another flight manual like the Eurofighter DA.7 last week (iirc).
Oh man, you played too? There's dozens of us!
I remember having to learn how to use DOS commands to load the cd and start the game.
Back then it was on floppy disks!
I played the F-117 game on DosBox a few years ago, settings to full realism/full difficulty and it was surprisingly easy. I also really miss the Microprose-style UIs in modern games, only few game developers put the work into making an immersive UI (one such positive example is the game "Highfleet").
Yeah get a load of that guy with his fancy CDs.
Mine was 5.25” floppies. (F19)
I’ve never tried it on an emu because I figured I don’t have the manual so I wouldn’t know what all the keys did :(
Was Tank Platoon also microprose? That game was awesome too.
I only had Lemmings on 5.25, I think they came in a pack of promotional disks from my dad's office. The brokers had to stay busy in between avoiding another 1987 Black Monday.
Lemmings was also a great game. I thought that was early 90s though.
Also had Loom and Monkey Island on 5.25.
I don't think so. Technically it was only classified for certain foreign entities, and even an incredibly poor spy network would have been able to get access to them if they really wanted them.
Gaijin nuked that thread likely out of an abundance of caution. They never seen to get in trouble for this thing happening so my guess is they have the proper authorities on speed dial.
Multiple times. It's the dumbest shit, too.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/why-do-war-thunder-players-keep-leaking-classified-documents-a-bizarre-recurring-controversy-explained/ar-AA1g52BJ
So many times over the years. The devs had made multiple public statements that they will not use the information or implement it in game, so as not to encourage it, yet people keep doing it
The information being used in the game is FAR less important than being right on a Internet forum, apparently
This time its not even to win an argument the comment is just "here's the flight manual, please implement the plane"
Which is even worse than what you'd think because the plane looks very cool but its purpose is nowhere near the type of gameplay that war thunder has.
He has no social intelligence or relationship with his parents, so he must reveal this info for the ladies. Do you wish to keep this young impudent from the layyydeeez? How cruel.
As much as it pains me to say this, such an outstanding gentleman would refer to the fairer sex as "ffffeeeeemaaaales".
Excellent point. How about "fillies", pronounced "fillllieeeez"? With a sly tip of the Lockmart brand tactical sunglasses ?
Sounds like we need to leak fake info that matches whats currently in the game so they'll change it.
Such a strange time to be alive