"Linux Desktop: A Collective Delusion" - an unhinged rant
tadeubento.com
Linux has made significant strides, and in 2023, it’s better than ever. However, there are still individuals perpetuating a delusion: that desktop Linux is as user-friendly and productive as its mainstream counterparts. After a few discussions on Lemmy, I believe it’s important to provide a clear review of where Linux falls short as a daily driver for average users.
EDIT: can I just make it clear I don't agree with this article one bit and think it's an unhinged polemic?
This can't be serious.
This one too:
Desktop Linux is a failure because this one specific thing doesn't work right now in only the Flatpak version of this one specific application. Good thing every Windows app has 100% functionality and works perfectly as soon as it's released lol.
lol - let's also ignore the other installation methods of keepassxc that work for this specific use case
Also I'm not sure why it doesn't work, but if it's just a file access thing (which is usually the issue for me whenever a flatpak is acting up) then it's like one toggle in Flatseal to unfuck it lol.
Because... it’s NOT just a file access thing. There are dozens of issues discussion that problem - that affects other browser extensions that also need to communicate other desktop apps - and no universal solution. Not even a working solution in most cases.
More info here: https://lemmy.world/comment/4678009
What if you wanted to use 1pass or LastPass? They work flawlessly as browser extensions.
+1 for bitwarden!
Didn't even see this part. Sure. Scp, a native Linux tool, has no gui. A sysadmin that can not use a console is no sysadmin. What a piece of bullshit
It's true, this has been an issue that has stumped developers and sysadmins for decades. They cannot function without WinSCP!
This author be trollin.
Was it some being malicious with ai?
Like I can't remember the last time I actually needed an FTP client, but FileZilla was fine on Linux a decade ago, I can't imagine it's got worse
I'm just connecting to FTP directly from Nautilus, it's so user friendly it feels like I'm cheating.
Same with Nemo
Same with Dolphin. It can even remember credentials in a safe manner in KWallet.
I just use Dolphin.
Typical problem of switching OS and keeping the same aproache to using it. In little defence of that statement, Linux file managers don't really announouce support for ftp and ssh inside them. There usually is Network tab that lists Network drives. Samba and media devices, forgot name of protocol, but ftp and SSH is a bit hidden in address bar.
I was about to quote the same.
... I mean, when you're this clueless, maybe don't put out 'articles' for others to read -- it's wasting everyone's time.
I thought the title of this article was intriguing; because in the Linux community certain aspects of the desktop experience do get hyped; & there's a tendency in general to sweep various usability issues under the rug, with the unwarranted confidence that we're already "better than everyone else" in every way; though the article doesn't address any of those.
I mean, sshfs is RIGHT THERE.
I've tried software development in Windows multiple times, last time for over a year. It feels like trying to code with broken fingers. WSL makes it tolerable, but I don't think that counts as developing in Windows anymore.
...Im in sysadmin and github actions are like, 90% of my job.
And filezilla works like a charm. The fuck are they talking about.
Yes this article is absolute trash
Not sure why my post was downvoted so much, just wanted us all to enjoy laughing at its absurdity
FTP / SFTP and pretty much all of the transfer protocols are already built into every file manager in Linux. Who's going to need a separate client for that?
Laptop computers have made significant strides, and in 2023, they're better than ever. However, there are still individuals perpetuating a delusion: That a powerful gaming laptop is as user-friendly and productive as the Apple iPad, which is what everyone should obviously be using. After a few discussions on Lemmy, I believe it's important to provide a clear review of where these fancy "laptop" computers fall short as daily drivers for normal people like me.
PC gaming laptops will, most, likely, fail, for:
Laptop computers are great, I love them but I don't sugar coat it and I'm not delusional like you.
If one lives in a bubble and doesn't to collaborate with other Apple iPad users then PC latop apps might work and might even deliver a decent workflow. But once you've got to work with other iPad users it's "game over" — the "alternatives" just aren't up to it.
iPads aren't that expensive and they work right out of the box. Software runs fine, everything on the App Store is supported whatever you're trying to do and you'll be productive from day zero. There are annoyances from time to time, sure, but they're way fewer and simpler to deal with than the hoops you've to go through to get a minimal and viable/productive laptop computer experience.
It all comes down to a question of how much time (days? months? aeons?) you want to spend fiddling with a mouse and keyboard to set up things which simply work out of the box on the Apple iPad for a minimal fee. Buy an iPad! You know it's the only sensible thing to do and the ROI will be fantastic!
You can buy a second-hand iPad for around €4 that comes with everything you'll need. And every iPad comes with IOS for no extra charge, so why wait? Buy it! Buy it now!
"They hated him because he spoke the truth. I can't even get "simple" apps like Apple iMove to run on my PC. And there's some kind of "video card driver" that needs "updating"? No sane person could ever cope with this. No amount of googling or even the fabled tech support genuis of "chatgpt" was able to help me. It just won't work. This whole Internet is delusional, if they think that laptop computers are usable for the average Joe and I'm an Apple iPad expert so I know what I'm talking about. It's too much hassle. I just want to get things done." — Average Joe
Still thinking that 2023 is the year of the laptop computer? Think again. The Apple iPad is all the computing you will ever need.
🏆
The thing with what you posted is that... none of it is wrong if you value iPad-style user-friendly above all. In the say way I value productivity and not having waste time fixing stuff that works out of the box under Windows.
I'm pretty sure the average person wouldn't even be able to tell the difference between something like mint and windows.
Linux is as user-friendly as the user wants it to be.
Sometimes Teams sends audio to the wrong device at work and I think "why am I so hard on Linux when Windows can't get it right even with all of Microsoft's resources"
Couldn't agree more. We need to get rid of that stupid idea that Windows or macOS are anywhere near as productive as Linux.
This is wild lol.
On my dual-boot machine, I once had to spend an hour on the phone with Microsoft because I put in a new GPU and Windows decided that meant it was installed on the wrong PC and locked me out of it.
I've had my printer for years and it still doesn't work properly on Windows. It prints, but it fucks up in subtle ways constantly such as setting the print scale to 100% which prints slightly larger. My SO prints sewing patterns so this can actually be a big fuck up.
I had to do a registry edit in Windows to get the fucking clock to display the correct time.
It can't even turn off properly. About 40% of the time when I shut it down from Windows it'll wait about 30 seconds and then turn back on again.
When I boot it from Linux, none of these things are issues and it just behaves like a normal computer.
Ahem, normal computer would be windows, it functions better than a normal computer
/s
A normal computer is a computer that is perpendicular to a plane.
You have to edit the registry at install to get Win11 to install on most machines.
Well at least you spent an hour on the phone and got it fixed. If you had the same issue under Linux it would be days of compiling stuff and most likely having to wait for the next big release to get it fixed. Meanwhile zero work done :)
Also your hardware must be really awkward / fucked up / old... because if every Windows installation behaved like that then entire countries would not work at all.
There us so much wrong with this article. From installing a fucking browser via flatpack, over ignoring the fact that office 365 is a thing to the fact that there are alternatives to Adobe.
Sure, not everything is perfect right now, and people have to learn new stuff.
I have migrated multiple people to fedora in the last two years. And guess what, regardless of type or age of user, they had no troubles with it to this day. They use gimp, play, have browsers with password managers, and write office documents. Yes. MS office.
Articles like this are one reason why people hesitate to make the switch. Doompainting, that's all it is.
And what the hell are you talking about vrr? Kde, sway and hyperland support it for years now under wayland. Gnome still does not have it, but that is gnome.
And if more distributions would not per default use gnome, such misconceptions wouldn't exist in the first place.
The average user doesn't need specifically MS Office. But if they do, they do.
Use (always) your package manager. The trend of using Flatpak has severe downsides as you pointed out.
Use libvirt and the virt-manager UI
Might as well be the case. I haven't tried.
My experience is the other way around.
Old games don't run on a recent Windows either. I've tried.
If you need specific proprietary tools, you might need Windows or Wine. Depends on the specific use-case. But the 'average user' we're talking about isn't an electrical engineer. If you're a student, try KiCad it's not Eagle but it is something.
You need specialized software along with the specialized hardware. Again, more niche than 'average user'.
Same. If you need special software, you need special software. It's arguable if the 'average user' needs exactly that. Special needs might render Linux unusable in your situation.
My file manager does this. And it's more like the windows people do their webdev. I rarely work like this. I don't have a need for WinSCP on my desktop but webdev works fine.
Why do most people use Linux instead of Windows to host their servers, then? Why is almost all of the web powered by Linux if Windows is better? All the devs and sysops wrong? AWS? Almost all cloud services?
Really? I need to throw away printers because people update their Windows and the printer has no drivers available for the new Windows version. Printers stop after a service pack got rolled out and need fixing. People have Ransomware sent to them. Graphics drivers and sound drivers sometimes do silly stuff and don't detect the headphone plug properly. HDMI doesn't switch over to the projector. All sorts of small annoyances and they happen regularly.
Agree. If you learned Windows and have no idea of Linux, you'd have to learn this now. It takes time. If you had learned Linux, you'd know where the logfiles are and you'd struggle with Windows. Sometimes learning new things (properly) is a good things. Sometimes you can't be bothered or lack time to do it.
The 'average user' doesn't need all the specific tools in exactly that version. The average user needs an office suite and a browser, not Eagle and Adobe. If you live in one ecosystem and have to share stuff with your colleagues, you live in that ecosystem. I agree. I have far less issues with my linux machines and debugging is so much easier with them than the Windows machines and servers I had. It's sometimes been days of trial and error to tackle problems there while Linux usually has good debug messages available instead of 'Error 33492, program closed.'
The average user needs a stable and user-respecting system that get's out of the way. They need Office, a browser, E-Mail, a network-share and a working printer. All the specific tools and WinSCPs and so on are additional knowledge you learned during your times with Windows, while the average user struggles with their Antivirus. I agree, it's more complicated for you if you have 10+ years of windows experience and now try to apply it 1:1 to Linux. It doesn't work this way.
(My general advice is: If you want it 100% like Windows: Use Windows.)
And that's a good thing, according to my MSc. in Electronics colleague. We replaced EAGLE with KiCad a few years ago because it's just a better product ever since CERN essentially took over development.
Yeah, I can see how stuff like electronics simulation might be an issue. I'm not up to date any more, the major tools used to be some very expensive proprietary products. I've tried some simulation tools, but I'm not an expert on that and I don't know where we're at with the alternatives and what kind of feature set they offer. And I struggled a bit with KiCads autorouting back then. But it's probably gotten better since.
Because Linux is good at that, well supported at that and the people use it. When it comes to the desktop is the exact same opposite. That's kind of the point of the entire thing, Linux is great at certain things but certainly not as a desktop because it fails for all those use cases that compose the majority of what people do.
I'd have to disagree. I use it exclusively and it's awesome. My dad uses it and my mom has for quite some years. I know dozens of people who use wildly different distributions for all kinds of stuff. I think it'd be the same for the majority of people if it came with their Laptops and Chromebooks.
"INStallINg VirtUalBOx is hARd" is quite a statement when you choose like the most difficult way to do it...
Plus 99.9% of people will never think of doing that
I switched to Linux/Ubuntu when I found out all of my Steam games work on Linux. I was shocked but it was true. I heard there are a few games that don't work because of EAC but I don't have any of those. I even added all my non steam games to steam and they work. Even Project 1999 works, Baldur's Gate 1, and 2 works...and works very well. I am playing the newest games too like Baldur's Gate 3 and Lords of the Fallen on max settings with my XBox controller.
My PC and I think a lot of people's PC are used for gaming. Now I also installed Google Chrome when I did have to do some business. I was able to make Office friendly files for my resume and PDFs with Google docs. When I did need to do some graphic work I used gimp. Ubuntu saw my Brother network printer and I printed what I needed.
I am sure there are people who need software that will not work on Linux, but a lot of people could use Linux for their everyday PC use. Most people game or use the web browser.
I love how easily printers work on Linux. Visited my parents for a day last week, and within seconds of joining their wlan I got a notification that their Brother network printer was found and ready for printing
That's more of Brother doing things correctly. Mine automatically shows up on all my Windows systems too.
I like how the majority of the list is "stuff that doesn't exists on Linux can't be properly used on Linux". Yeah, no fucking shit, Sherlock.
I also like how it's supposed to be about the "average user" and then lists a ton of stuff that's only used in niche applications when put in relation to the entire desktop market.
Additionally:
A good amount of old games won't run properly on Windows anymore, either.
I can't see any of the downvotes that DerisionConsulting mentioned, possibly because I'm on kbin, but I can absolutely understand why people would downvote this completely braindead article that doesn't mention a lot of the actual issues (i.e. hardware compatibility on laptops, friction from the slow transition from X to Wayland, inconsistent user interfaces, updates breaking stuff on some distros, ...).
I'd dare to say that older Windows games would run better on Linux than on Windows 11.
It's so true though. I found an old game on my mom's old PC from years ago. It doesn't even exist on the market anymore. I started it up with Wine and it ran perfectly. My brother tried it on his Windows 11 laptop and it wouldn't run. Weird how that works, haha!
That's my personal experience, as well.
What are average users? That's a really broad term. For example my parents and friends are considered average users and they all do their diligences on a web browser. So can they switch to Linux? Of course. For school learning about Linux and having to hand out work as a Word document hasn't been a problem for me just use Microsoft 365 no problem at all. Adobe suite? Well there is plenty of tools capable of doing the work as good as you just have to take the time to learn them ,I agree on this one with author. But in reality I think we should all move away from Adobe their subscription is expensive , most of my classmates at my community college can barely afford a laptop to run Photoshop so it will be great if schools start teaching FOSS apps. If you are using keepass XC you can copy and paste a password and if you don't want to deal with that use Bitwarden been using that for years. Virtual Manager is so simple to install and have a Windows 10 up and running in less than a hour.
I am a casual gamer and been able to play GTA V , Cyberpunk 2077 , Red dead Redemption 2 , Wildlands , Far Cry Primal , Spiderman remastered , Stray on my PC with little to no configuration.
Imagine Windows eventually charging you a monthly subscriptions and still collecting your data adding useless features like AI that will collect more and more data , to serve you better according to them. I don't want that , that's why I move from Windows to Linux. Was it easy? No but it was worth it :) to have the control back and the privacy I wanted.
I see we still have the problem of people who don't know how to use Linux writing drive-by hit pieces about Linux.
How 2010 of them.
This is really and truly terrible all around. Firstly, its a link to a website talking about a post on Lemmy... Why the hell is this just not a post? Why do we need an external website for this terrible excuse for "an article"? Secondly, the writing is terribly done with poorly reasoned arguments and a lot of just plain wrong information. It is yet another example of someone that tried switching to Linux once, sucked at it, and decided that everyone here in the Linux communities must just be lying about having no issues using linux and they should come here to the Linux communites to tell us to stop and we can't do what we already do every damn day. Jesus, it seems like half of the posts in any Linux community on Lemmy is people that don't use Linux telling everyone how bad Linux is and how great windows is... wtf guys.
Its people being people I guess. They’re all weird. Some good weird, some bad weird. Thank you for taking the time to critique the article so I don’t need to read it. :)
I think the biggest issue with linux on desktop/laptops is simply that most computer users are just not savvy enough to be comfortable installing themselves and feeling like they can fix it if something goes wrong and most come with Windows.
Steam deck has entered the chat.
Steam deck is proof that it is possible to sell linux based devices, but so is chromeos and android. Steam deck is more of a Switch alternative. I doubt most are using it’s desktop mode.
Some major manufactures sell Linux laptops/desktops running linux, but you usually have to buy those directly from their website and you won’t find them at local retailers and mostly targeting those who already run linux and want a linux compatible device out of the box.
Linux is definitely a suitable os for most these days as the most widely used use cases are web based. Even Edge is on Linux now and MS’s biggest non-windows product is Office and Office365 which has web based options. The ads on windows are getting to the point that I could see an opportunity for a company though.
I think the steam deck is becoming the first computing device for a lot of young people that had iPads, and it's going to be a desktop computer for a lot of aspiring and broke college students. It's definitely a gateway device.
It can definitely be used as an inexpensive computing device. I wonder what percentage of people use a docked devices in general which is really the only practical way that works with a deck on a regular basis. Screen is really too small for serious usage as a general computing device without docking. Linux will get some users from steam deck, but I wouldn’t expect a large percent and those are the more confident computer users.
I think the biggest problem with Linux is that a lot of self-proclaimed "savvy" computer users need to check their ego... It's either people that have used Linux since 2008 and want to gate-keep the community because their superiority complex is a poorly built house of cards; or it's people that have only ever used modern windows and think they are good with a computer that went and tried to install Linux and screwed it up because it didn't work exactly like windows.
Average computer users aren't comfortable installing windows and do not feel like they can fix it if something goes wrong...
Definitely some problematic linux users. I agree that your average computer user is probably uncomfortable with installing windows as well. For most people they have never installed anything other than updates.
I think Apple has the most user friendly approach and that is basically load the boot chooser and do a predefined netboot that will download it. Amazes me that nobody including MS has pushed for that feature and being configurable like secure boot.
The fuck?
I am the average user. Linux is, and has been since at least 2012 when I started using it, been absurdly easy to install. You can get instructions for it in seconds, follow the directions, and you're done in twenty-odd minutes. And I mean done as in you can do any of the basics the average user needs to do. If you wanna tweak things, that's longer, but still as easy as windows (or easier in some aspects).
My fucking mom can handle a mint install, and she's an idiot in regards to computers.
When I got my first computer I went with Linux Mint because I needed some OS. I have also tried Windows 10, but I found the settings too confusing. Control panel, settings, each somewhat linking to one another instead of being fully completed.
So, yeah, I went with Mint because it was easier to use. I have tried Windows later again, but I am just not used to it.
As professional shit poster and semi pro gamer along with light domestic office use case, I will never go back windows.
Privacy and security nightmare where the paying customer gets treated like a brain dead pleb.
I hope Microsoft will never go with the subscription based OS approach that is being rumored about. I seriously can't afford that much popcorn.
i've supported home users for over two decades.
the 'average' of those is dumb as bricks when it comes to PCs or the internet. a mainstream linux distribution will not work for them unless their needs are basically a browser only--and for that limited use case, a chromebook is the better fit--dirt cheap to buy, and integrated with the google ecosystem they probably already got sucked-into via their android-based phone.
i have one user that calls me every year or so for an updated ubuntu live boot disk, they run a browser off that for everything--don't even have a hdd in their pc, and a couple others that boot a kiosk-type setup off hdd.
i do have a few that have a full linux desktop--but they aren't among those 'average' users and are mostly self-sufficient in maintaining them.
I find zorin about as easy and windows. I think the issue is the dumb as bricks users rely on family and friends that use windows and thats what they would expect to see.
ngl, friends and family that 'know what they're doing' generates revenue.
Sad mafia troll posts today.
It may be true for some professional applications but Linux fits really fine in my life and would also fit really fine in most of my family’s life if they had the courage to get rid of windows.
About gaming, I don’t know, but most people just use their computer for browsing and administrative tasks so they should be okay.
Those of us in media production simply can’t use Linux. We use too many complicated programs by major companies that are not native to Linux.
Basically all this is bs. The truth is: switching os' is always hard but if you grow up with one(like me who started with linux and didnt try windows until the age of 15) and only use that one ecosystem its easier. Also according to my grandma(her laptop was really slow so we tried linux on it) manjaro is easier to use than windows...
Nah, I will admit there are quirks, but compared to Windows it was easier to install, easier to manage (Yast2 GUI) and has been much more stable and performant than W10. Even runs Proprietary CAD better than Windows. Webex Teams, MS Teams, Teamviewer, Edge Browser all functioning so that my daily work is same as Windows. The comments about hard to run virtual machines ? wut? dead simple. And windows apps arent needed when you sign into Office 365. Outlook actually runs better via web that local. Just a poorly researched article.
Great graphic, this needs to be a t-shirt
Not sure why this is was down-voted.
I don't agree with some points on the list, but if you need propriety software for your job, Linux may not be the easiest choice.
Probably because this is the only claim with some substance to it. But there are like 15 more claims in the article that a just wrong.
I guess that 80% of the claims on the post are, in some way, that "only claim with some substance to it" in different contexts / people / workplaces.
Most likely because the term 'Linux desktop' is ambivalent. Are you talking about DE's or WM's? Are you looking at GNOME or KDE?
Mmmh. 'Linux desktop' means a computer powered by (GNU+)Linux that is used as a workstation. For example in an office or at home where someone sits in front of it and does something with it. In contrast to a server or an embedded device (or arguably a phone or a gaming console). It doen't necessarily mean you need an GUI or a specific one.
Well who doesn't require some kind of propriety software for their job? The big problem is collaboration and as someone said, if everyone is into a propriety solution and you're on an alternative you're going to have a bad time.