What are your thoughts on the concept of having faith in a Higher Power but choosing to distance oneself from established religious doctrines?

jedi@lemm.ee to Ask Lemmy@lemmy.world – 72 points –

Hey, so I believe in a higher power but I'm not on board with any particular religion. Anyone else think it's cool to just fly solo as a good human, no religion attached?

87

Anyone else think it’s cool to just fly solo as a good human, no religion attached?

Religion does not have a monopoly on morality, despite what many preach. Be kind, and believe what you want.

It might be useful to consider Leibnitz's take on the Euthyphro Dilemma

"is good and just because God wills it or whether God wills it because it is good and just".

Considering that, it is clear that morals cannot come from religion

I'm an evangelist's kid. I grew up surrounded by religion. When I got to my 30s I started reevaluating matters of faith. Now in my 60s I consider that journey complete. On "good" days I'm agnostic, on "bad" days an atheist.

I know many awesome people of faith. I know many hideous people of faith. I know many awesome nonbelievers, I know meant hideous nonbelievers.

Be a decent human being and very few people will care what you believe.

I'm not exactly an atheist but sometimes agnostic. I believe in higher power but I don't believe in divine intervention.

Can I ask, in the friendliest way possible and purely for my curiosity so I really don't expect an answer, how you balance "higher power" with "doesn't use it"? The way you've described it could be interrupted as anything from an otherwise traditional Christian who doesn't believe in directly answered prayers, to believing that this is some sort of simulation we will wake up from.

One thing I often think about coming from a Christian upbringing is the idea that God knows everything that will ever happen to you, every choice you'll make, when you'll die, etc. To me, that signifies determinism and total lack of free will. That just doesn't sit well with me.

Sounds kinda like deists. Most of the founding fathers were, plus a lot of enlightenment thinkers. So you're in good company.

I very much doubt you'll find anyone here who discourages you from stepping away from organized religion.

I'm a former Christian pastor on a hiatus from church life, but in no way done with being a Christian in my private life.

I believe the Bible boils religion down to three basic life roles for every individual person to follow: priest, steward, and keeper.

  1. As a priest, every person is meant to determine how they ought best to live.
  2. As steward they are to take care of the world around them in accordance with their beliefs.
  3. As their "brother's keeper" they should work to ensure everyone else is free from coercion to believe and live how they think is best.

When people function in all three roles they are revealing the "image of God".

Live your best life and help others do the same to the best of your ability. Or, as James the brother of Jesus, said, true religion is this: "to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world."

I was raised in a very religious family. It's very hard to break free but I have decided to go on my own path.

I trust you'll find it a healing process. Most importantly, be patient with yourself.

What do you mean by healing process?

According to my perspective, having autonomy is core to being human and most religious structures actively work to squash autonomy and force conformity. I think that is harmful for everyone.

For me, it's taken time to even recognize how hurt I was and I'm still going through a healing process.

There is significant propability by just beeing here that you were hurt in the past and you didn't heal properly. First step before acknowledging the pain is to go to a safe place, where there are no toxic people and where your basic needs are met. Hurt people are like magnet for toxic people, and hurt people are comforted by familiarity of toxicity.

I am just guessing here.

I would say it’s cooler to be a good person for the sake of it rather than being a good person because you fear hell or desire some sort of reward (eternity in heaven).

Yeah, I mean what if heaven and hell do not exist?

It's better if they don't exist. Just believe that you are energy that can't be destroyed. That way, you'll live forever, like molecules or whatever. I try to think of it that way? Just cruising around the globe or visiting other galaxies? Onward to the next adventure? (Sorry drunkish)

I still believe that everything has its creator, and creator has its own creator.

My thoughts are that your question is not so much about belief as about tribe. Since you seem to care about your group identity, why not support a sports team instead? It creates fewer problems than religion.

Vancouver Cancuks begs to differ. Still less problems than religion though.

Honestly anything in community or with people. Concerts, hobbies, helping, travelling. You don’t need religion to find and connect with tribe and humanity.

I thought that too. But when my atheist friend lost her child, the only thing I could talk about was 'energy never gets destroyed and shit', just to keep her away from organised religion. Because her local priest already has made an appointment to speak to her and her partner.

Sometimes it is really about giving them comfort that their loved ones will be alive as long as they remember them. That's what I told her but I still feel shitty about it, because I hope there's something more for the innocents, but I don't think so.

Whatever floats your boat, mate. Having a religion is not a bad thing per se. It's only bad if you try to use it to control other peoples' lives.

Thanks mate! I've been studying Islam, Christianity (my family is religious but tolerates different beliefs, so I have a mix of both worlds), as well as Buddhism. However, none of these religions really grabbed my attention.

Metaphysics is a blind man in a dark room, looking for a black cat that isn't there. Religion is the blind man shouting "I found it!"

Independent religious beliefs outside the confines of religious establishments tend to be healthier, and you're then free of the corruption and manipulation that inherently permeates all religions, due to our inherently flawed human nature.

Religious establishments are very much human inventions. Even if claims within religious canons are true, the religion and texts are all interpretations by deeply flawed human beings, and the rituals practiced were invented by them.

Religion can be used to manipulate and control, and there are individuals who will exploit it for their own self-interests within every religion.

Other than the supportive community that follows some religious institutions, I wholeheartedly believe that people are better off inwardly reflecting on their beliefs, rather than being told what to believe by deeply flawed and easily corruptible authority figures.

Their beliefs are no more demonstratably true than your personal spiritual beliefs.

I'm personally an atheist, but I'm not an anti-theist, and I am a huge advocate of specifically what you're asking about. People should reflect on and develop their own independent spiritual beliefs.

I strongly agree that religious establishments are creations of humans. Even if the claims within religious canons are true, the religion and texts are all interpretations by flawed human beings, and the rituals practiced were invented by them. Growing up in a religious family, I understand how easy it is to be indoctrinated into a certain faith. I believe that early exposure to religion can have a corrupting effect on our minds.

What you are describing sounds like Deism, which is a philosophy that most of the framers of the US Constitution shared

Deism is a great reference. It's awesome tho think that some leaders and thinkers from the past also shared similar ideas. The idea of a higher power that doesn’t meddle in the day-to-day but set the universe in motion definitely resonates with my thoughts. It's like being part of a grand design, but having the freedom to navigate it in our own unique ways. It's always enlightening to link personal beliefs with historical philosophies. Makes you feel part of a bigger conversation, doesn't it?

I personally start with the idea that I'm part of something much, much bigger than myself; that's the basis of my concept of a "higher power". Like the Ancient One told Doctor Strange, "It's not about you."

I was raised Mormon, and after breaking free I have a strong distaste for organized religion. You know how people like to say that if they had a time machine, they'd go back and kill Hitler? I would take out Abraham. The Abrahamic Covenant made religion all about one man's ego; the cult he formed has splintered and spread over so much of our planet.

Gathering with like minded folk to exchange ideas about life, the universe, everything was once an organic, grass roots sorta thing (or so it seems). Religion is manufactured as a system of control.

Celebrate making your journey your own! I hope you find people who have the courage to make their own path as well; it is a huge comfort to at least just speak freely with like minded folk.

Man, that's some deep stuff you're sharing. The whole 'tiny part of something huge' vibe really puts things in a new light, doesn't it? Kinda like realizing you're just one pixel in a giant picture.

Reading about your journey away from Mormonism and your take on organized religion is super interesting. It's wild to think how one person's ideas can snowball into something that affects so many. And your point about the Abrahamic Covenant? it's really a mind-bender!

Totally agree on the whole making-your-own-path thing. It's awesome to bump into others carving out their own routes too. It's like a big, messy, beautiful DIY project where everyone's figuring it out as they go along.

Well let me ask you this: how specifically would it not be okay?

Well let me ask you this: how specifically would it not be okay?

Great question! For me, it's not about it being okay or not in the traditional sense. I just feel that spirituality can be a personal journey that doesn't necessarily require the framework of an organized religion. It's like taking a road trip without a map - sometimes the discoveries you make on your own are the most meaningful. I believe in being a good human, guided by my own understanding of a higher power, morals, and the world around me. It's about finding my own path and respecting others' paths too. What's your take on this?

A higher power without religion

Yeah, that sounds fine to me. I think the movie Dogma spells that position out pretty well: organized beliefs lead to all kinds of messy stuff, it's better to just have ideas.

And personally I think humans seem to be wired to want religion. I think it stems from how we're social creatures and we just desperately want to be part of something. And some of the most pervading religions have been the ones that include a father figure in their belief structure; I don't think that's a coincidence either, I think nearly everyone wants someone to follow, someone to tell them what to do, and parents don't last forever.

All that is to say, religion or at least spirituality seems to be something people naturally yearn for. And given that, there's no shame in feeling that yearning.

Thanks for your insight

Organized religion is corruptible to the point of uselessness.

Corruptible assumes they weren't started for that purpose in the first place.

I wish there was a way to know what the mix of true believers and opportunists involved in each of the religions' founding. Like the story of Constantine includes elements of both (he wanted a way to increase the unity across the Empire because it was getting hard to convince Iberian Romans to take up arms for wars in the middle East, but there's also a story that he dreamed about having a cross on this shield leading to winning a battle). That wasn't the founding of Christianity, but it is the reason Europe adopted it.

Or looking at the old testament, it seems to be a combination of general living advice/laws, events based on actual historic things (like David and Solomon were probably real), and stuff likely made up after the fact (like Genesis). I'd say the ones who made up Genesis weren't likely true believers (of what they were writing), but it's hard to say if they believed in the rest of it and just wanted to fill the gaps in good faith, or enjoyed the clerical power and filled in those blanks because not filling them in would have threatened that power. Or some combination of the two.

What purpose does the belief part cover?

In my experience, this usually fills in for something that people need to be true.

In my experience, this usually fills in for something that people need to be true.

I'm not religious, but I've noticed religion can (successfully) act as a mental buffer to help people through hard times. To keep them from simply clocking themselves out during the lowest of lows.

Whether someone else likes that idea or not because it's "lies" doesn't really matter if it's a technique for pure animal survival that works for some members of a species.

Personally, I've seen a lot of damage done to perfectly good people done via religious institutions, so I'd prefer if a formalized network of mental health services that was affordable and accessible existed. But, again, my preferences for the type of system that performs a function aren't going to erase what happens in real life with real people faced with survival problems on the ground.

That's a good take. It offers hope in times of desperation. A mental health solution would be better, but I'm told constantly that there's a waiting list of 2 years, even though my GP is trying his very best to get me into a program, sometimes a higher power is all we have.

That said, f*ck all the religious rules. Live your life and hang on, even if you have to believe in a unicorn.

Yes. Had religion shoved down my throat as a kid. Learned early on being a religious believer meant nothing, people are shitty no matter what.

Had to decide who I wanted to be, what rules to live by. Realized I don't enjoy hurting people, try to learn from mistakes, random acts of kindness, to always try for the evolved, educated non violent option. That's enough for me. If there's a god who has a problem with that, oh well.

That's basically agnosticism. And it's pretty common among intellectuals, historically speaking at least

It's an Agnostic Theist (Don't claim the knowledge but have the belief).

Rather than an Agnostic Atheist (Don't claim the knowledge but don't have the belief)

Gnostic Theist (Claim the knowledge and have the belief)

And

Gnostic Atheist (Claim the knowledge but don't have the belief)

Are the other two

That's interesting, do you have some reading/listening recommendations about it? I would love that. (Trying to figure shit out)

Sorry, I don't know of any good resources off the top of my head

Agnostic Theist

Or

Agnostic Atheist

Are what the majority of people are.

Agnostic makes the most sense because there is no "proof" a God or gods exists or doesn't exist.

If I walk up to a Theist or Atheist and ask for "proof," neither side will have any.

When you ask a Gnostic Theist that practices Christianity (but could be any religion). They will say that the Bible is "proof" and that they know that to be the truth. They claim to have the knowledge that their belief is correct.

A Gnostic Atheist doesn't really exist. Because they would have to believe in some knowledge that is "proof" for their belief that no God or gods could ever exist. There is no knowledge out there that proves that.

It becomes a semantic battle of what do you call the God or gods and that "Anything is possible"

So you can assume anyone that calls themselves Atheist is an Agnostic Atheist.

As an example, no Atheist is going to lay down their life to die on a hill that no God or gods has ever existed. They believe that no God or gods existed, but they realize that the knowledge to prove it doesn't exist yet.

A Gnostic Theist will die on the hill for what they believe because they truly believe that they have the knowledge to prove it.

Plato has a lot of good stuff to read up about religion

But unless you want to pick a religion and roll with it on faith, agnostic is what it is.

It's nice to hope for a nice God or gods. That would make you Agnostic Theist.

But if you feel like a God or gods don't exist then you'd just be Agnostic Atheist.

But to become religious, you'd have to read about all the different ones and see what speaks to you and decide yourself if you want to buy in or not.

Thanks for this. I've read some Plato but it was so long ago, I have to look into it again.

I'm hoping for a nice overall entity, so that makes me an Agnostic theist for now.

I severed myself completely from a major religion. Never again for me.

I’m a strong atheist, which means I have a positive belief that no gods exist, just for the record. The way I would put it is that I have never heard of nor have been able to come up with a god concept that I believe is an actual being.

I prefer to use the term “god concept” rather than god to make it clear that we’re talking about a specific idea of a god rather than an actual being. So Odin is a god concept, as is Minerva. Multiple god concepts exist in the bible, including the original regional father-deity El, El’s wife Ashera, their children including Yahweh, and so on. When the Israelites started to move from polytheism to henotheism (many gods exist but you should only worship one), and then to “monotheism” (in scare quotes because there are enough different god concepts as well as divine beings who would be counted as gods in any other pantheon).

In any case, I don’t think having a god concept which you believe refers to an actual being in itself is an indication of anything, good or bad. In my opinion, there’s a feedback loop between the disposition of people and their religions. The problems come in when the religions around the god concepts become extreme. The Amish have a fairly strong god concept, and while I’m not Amish (thank god), I don’t think they do harm unless you think of their actions within their community. 90% of UUs are great people. Sponoza’s Watchmaker would suggest we have to study ourselves to discover what constitutes good. And so on.

So I’d say that your belief is absolutely fine, but you also might be interested in the neurophysiological, social, and anthropological bases of humans so often having god concepts.

It's cool. I come from a religious background that I questioned all the time, even when my family focused only on teaching us the wholesome beautiful stuff, it's still hard to be on board with the rest or how other people interpret it.

So I've decided to quit. It's still hard, but I do still believe in a higher power. All the rest... I don't think God cares about head scarves or sex or alcohol,... Just live your life the way you want to and you'll be okay.

This is kind of where I'm at in life at 40. I grew up in the Christian church but as an adult, I see so much hate, intolerance, oppression and exploitation. I'm a lover of science to my core and I also believe in a higher power. I just choose to keep that mostly to myself in my day-to-day life.

Same, 44, but Muslim background :) I don't know why but your view makes me so happy, like I'm not the only one... Let's just live our lives in peace and I agree. We have to figure out who we are and what we stand for as a 'human' without interference, so keeping that to ourselves (offline) makes it easier in this timeline. Let's figure it out first and then we can go from there.

When I turned forty, I decided Jesus fasting for forty days and nights was just an allegory for how you don't really find out who you really are until you're over the hill! ;-)

So in other words non-denominational? My denomination is so specific yet unspecifically connected to anything that you approximately described me as well. Without a doubt this can be said to be one of the driving forces of what we all talked about here. Jesus himself said the expression of love did not matter, it's the love that counts.

In my experience, at least in the US, non-denominational when associated with an institution generally means “Christian” but not affiliated with a sect. They’re (typically) still quite Christian, and the phrase can be and is applied to churches ranging from the ones flying Pride flags and declaring that they’re open to everyone to ones like Westboro - some of the most radical Christian churches are non-denominational because their views are too conservative for even the more conservative right wing religions.

The phrase itself is an organizational status and does not indicate what kinds of beliefs a person has. It’s not unlike someone describing themselves as “politically independent.” You don’t know if they’re Greenpeace types, libertarians, or far right of the republicans.

Edit: The usual term in the US for what I think you’re describing is “Spiritual, but not religious.” That’s the way it’s usually written in census and survey forms.

If that's what that is, what term would you use for someone whose conclusions are more unspecific than even can be categorized under the "Christian" umbrella?

I realized my omission and put it in my edit. The term generally used is “spiritual but not religious.”

It can include everything from atheistic humanism alongside the Gaia hypothesis to Wicca.

I think this is a very fast growing segment of the US population now. It might have been in a recent Pew survey.

I just wanna share my love to the universe. I believe in oneness. I just don't believe in any of religions.

Yep yep yep! You're doin great. Keep it up hu-man

You're right. I just wanna be human.

Christian church is made of people. And people are sinful and evil.

Religion doesn't come from what other people tell you is truth, but from your experience. What experience have you lead you to believe in higher power?

I have experienced Luck so good and so significant in my life that I can only exlain it by intervention of higher power. But maybe you didn't experienced something like that, and I can understand that.

Religion comes from within, and not from external sources.

I mostly agree but I would argue that spirituality comes from within, while religion comes from external sources. Religion is just other people's packaged version of spirituality/faith.

I think you're describing agnostic beliefs, believing there might be a god but not conforming to any religion and basically otherwise being an atheist.

(Not too be confused with Gnostic beliefs, which was a branch of Christianity)

I do believe in God, I just don't believe on divine intervention.

I suggest you read up about Deism.

Definitely. That's what I was trying to remember but came up with agnostic instead. I think you hit it right on the nose.

Because I've been playing the audiobook of Eiji Yoshikawa's Musashi for my wife, here's a line from Musashi's Dokkōdō, the "way of walking alone":

Respect Buddha and the gods without counting on their help.

just fly solo as a good human

The older you get, the more serious you want to take it. Being true to yourself etc.

But the more serious you take it, the harder it gets. In the end, I'm afraid it's not doable.

I don't generally believe in a "higher power", despite having religious parents, I never really understood it... I just don't get how people can genuinely believe that there is a higher power that is somehow watching over everyone. That's not to say tat religion is a bad thing. It's not, in fact most non-radicalized religions have genuinely good teachings, be it Christianity, Buddhism or Islam (and others, again I'm not too into this stuff, these are just the religions I can speak semi-confidently about), they all fundamentally teach the same basic things, don't be an asshole, live modestly, help others, etc... (yes I do know it's MUCH more complicated than that).

That's the way I ultimately see the "higher power", as a way to get people to be good members of society by making them believe that there is a higher power that will bless them if they are.

Yup, I don't believe in divine intervention.

There is no reason why anyone has to make the same mistakes I made. There is no god. Just skip to the last step and save yourself so much agony.

I don't see much difference. You're still choosing to believe in a fairy tale, you just don't like the current available stories.

I have a different perspective—I don't believe that God intervenes in anything. If there is a God/Gods, I think they simply created the universe and set everything in motion.

I grew up as a Lutheran Christian in a small, conservative town—and attended Sunday School/summer Bible camp for many years—but became an agnostic after I began questioning things at 16 years old. About a month after that, I became an atheist. I've been one since... so almost 14 years.

Unfortunately, I was afraid to tell my parents, so I still went to church with my family almost every Sunday until I left at 18. I was also still effectively forced to be anacolyte/perform piano/sing in the choir/attend most other church activities. Fucking painful.

I still haven't told my parents, though, and probably never will; it'd cause more pain than anything else, sadly.

I feel you. I still go to mosque if it is because of my parents and families.

I wonder how many other people at the mosque secretly think the same as you? If you have children, do you think they will be less constrained than you? In which case, there is some hope that the next generation will escape the strictures of organised religion.

One of my son is atheist and I am ok with it.