Oh hey, also the same thing with environmental issues
Yup. Programmes that have experimented with giving homeless people hundreds in no-rules cash find that within a couple of months most of them have secured accommodation and reconnected with family and friends. After a while the majority are in paid employment.
Who would have guessed that the most of the problems of extreme poverty could be solved with money?!
Next you're going to tell me you can solve homelessness by giving people housing
Yes. But in more controversial news, you can solve hunger with.... money!
It's like giving people money empowers them to choose to fix their problems, most important ones first.
The surprising bit is that drug use rates drop substantially if people can cope with everyday life.
Drug use rates also decrease with accessible medical and mental health care. It's almost like treating the cause works better than punishing the symptoms...
Well then, seems to me like money itself is the issue
Who'd've thunk it?
Problem: poverty.
Solution: money.
Problem: no money
Solution: you guessed it it's money
Problem: money
Solution: get rid of money.
Obviously, we should stop people from sleeping outside by adding pikes everywhere. That's how you solve the problem!
But I'm using these bootstraps, they can go find their own!
I almost thought this was going a different way. I'm happy to be wrong.
I imagine some capitalist, right-wing fucker is screaming at their screen going "nu-uhhh" and furiously typing that you're wrong despite having done zero research.
I'm employed, and I live like I'm in poverty. As much as I want to lift up the homeless, I would also appreciate fair wages for the employed.
Since rent/housing has gone insane, I'm having a hard time making things work on the money I'm making. I'm well over the "poverty" line and I can't afford to put fuel in my car and buy name brand products, even if I wanted to. Products like.... Idk, Campbell's.
Minimum wage desperately needs to rise. It's not either or.
I agree.
Everything needs to rise IMO. Except for the highest levels of management.
My job in 2016 paid 90% of what I make now. Inflation in that time has been around 25%, and I've only increased around 10%...
Minimum wage is far worse, I know this, but just because minimum wage needs to increase doesn't and shouldn't imply other areas don't also need to be increased.
I'm in a more senior position, and I've changed jobs at least three times to get where I am now. If minimum goes up, I won't be angry about it, but I will be left wondering why I'm not also getting more.
Companies need workers and wages have been stagnant, and plenty of working people who used to be middle class, are now homeless, despite still being employed.
The whole situation is fucked and the only people profiting out of everything are the wage theives at the top and their shareholder friends.
Guy runs two channels, both animated right wing propaganda. That's the more serious of the two, the other has shit like this: https://youtu.be/X6Xe3SGUH6A
But to take it a bit further, high capacity public infrastructure can go a long way towards improving the lives of low income working people.
Trains, buses, and subways can eliminate the need to own and maintain a car. Public housing can get people off the street, where they won't be at risk of harm from interpersonal violence or exposure to severe weather. Public education and public health care have more benefits than I could list.
At an individual level, "Just give people money" is an immediate and useful generic panacea. But at a more macro level, geographic access to grocery stores and clinics and colleges and bus stops and permanent homes and factories matter just as much.
Clearly, the Venn of those who're empowered to make those changes and those who've played at least a couple hours of SimCity is two estranged circles.
It needs to be quality of those things, as well. And they know this. It's designed to keep us too tired, broken physically and mentally to get off the wheel, and not just under it, either. There's enough for everyone, just some few want to hoard it like decades worth of paper, not because it may come in handy, just because bloodsport is still entertainment, no matter how well they dress it.
It needs to be quality of those things, as well.
Oh absolutely. I have a bus stop on my corner, but it only picks up every 2 hours and then doesn't go to downtown.
There’s enough for everyone, just some few want to hoard it like decades worth of paper, not because it may come in handy, just because bloodsport is still entertainment, no matter how well they dress it.
Kropotkin was saying it over a century ago. Bread Book, baby.
People periodically ask how a country like Denmark or New Zealand or Japan can have such high standards of living relative to their individual incomes. Or why a country like the UK or Saudia Arabia can be so rich and yet appear so poor from a street level view.
So much boils down to who has access to quality infrastructure.
True enough. With apologies to mlk2, I may not get there with you, but I've seen it in my dreams. I hope we get there, with or without me. If you do, guard it vigilantly.
But to take it a bit further, high capacity public infrastructure can go a long way towards improving the lives of low income working people.
Trains, buses, and subways can eliminate the need to own and maintain a car.
The real problem is zoning. If the density is high enough (and mixed-use enough), people can just fucking walk places whether you've got public transit or not!
Even in areas where we have zoned for dense real estate, we've built these four lane boulevards with barely a crosswalk between them.
At some level, we could use a little zoning. Pedestrianization isn't going to happen via the free market.
At an individual level, "Just give people money" is an immediate and useful generic panacea. But at a more macro level, geographic access to grocery stores and clinics and colleges and bus stops and permanent homes and factories matter just as much.
FTFY.
Money without a place to spend it isn't useful.
Where are we that Amazon won't deliver?
Anywhere without Internet, for starters.
6530 Starlink satellites in low earth orbit tell me that if there is such a location, it is not within the contiguous 48 states. If they have the money, there is an option for the Internet access. Giving them the money remains the solution.
6530 Starlink satellites in low earth orbit tell me that if there is such a location
Don't satellites require receivers?
As far as I know, connecting to the internet requires some kind of device or another. I don't know if any Internet access point that operates on telepathy.
One thing that all of those accessing devices have in common is that "money" is required to initially obtain them, and/or to maintain connectivity to the serving provider.
One thing that all of those accessing devices have in common is that “money” is required to initially obtain them
Even more important than "money" tends to be "electricity". Which is why public investment in cheaper and cleaner power sources is the baseline for any kind of urban development.
True, but largely irrelevant to the issue at hand: It turns out that "electricity" is yet another thing that a needy individual can acquire with "money".
“electricity” is yet another thing that a needy individual can acquire with “money”
Go out into the woods and buy some electricity.
Ok. Yet another problem that can be solved when the individual has a little money.
Despite this, I reject the premise of your argument: the predominant reason an impoverished person wouldn't have access to Internet isn't due to a lack of infrastructure. It is due to an inability to pay for it. The predominant reason an impoverished person wouldn't have access to electricity isn't due to a lack of infrastructure. It is due to a lack of ability to pay for it.
According to the meme, my response is supposed to be "Fuck you guys."
Personally, I'm a proponent of UBI. An economic system where everyone receives a small, regular income, automatically, no strings attached, no means testing, no limitations or requirements on how it is spent. That income should be enough to meet the individual's basic sustenance needs. Not enough to be comfortable, but enough that you would not need to rely on your savings if you were out of work for a few months. Enough that you can take a chance on better employment, starting a business, going back to school, without worrying about homelessness.
With our current system, you start off Monday morning below the poverty line, and 85% of us cross it before the end of day on Friday.
UBI says you cross the poverty line before you leave the house; every hour you work is for disposable income, not basic survival.
Yes, the solution really is "give them the money".
I really don't know why you've got so few upvotes, and equitable down votes, because this is great and succinct.
But at a more macro level, geographic access to grocery stores and clinics and colleges and bus stops and permanent homes and factories matter just as much.
Here’s some emphasis for you. “Give them money” is a part of the solution, but it can only go so far when they lack access to places to spend that money. And no, delivery is not a real solution. It’s a very expensive bandaid.
Here’s some emphasis for you. “Give them money” is a part of the solution, but it can only go so far when they lack access to places to spend that money.
Places to spend it are pointless until they have money to spend. But if they have money to spend, people are going to come and try to get it, and they will be bringing the infrastructure with them. You don't have to build it; it will build itself once the people have money to spend.
First, there are more than enough resources to tackle multiple issues at a time. Just because the money is the more important aspect doesn’t mean we can’t also invest in things to improve people’s quality of life.
Second, this:
You don't have to build it; it will build itself once the people have money to spend.
Is probably the most ridiculous rebuttal you could have come up with. People will bring the infrastructure with them? It will build itself? Where the hell do you think these things come from?
probably the most ridiculous rebuttal you could have come up with. People will bring the infrastructure with them?
Yes.
Where people need food and have money, someone builds a produce stand, a convenience store, a grocery store, a supermarket, whatever other infrastructure the consumer base will support in their quest to do business. They want the money the consumers have, so businesspeople build the places where consumers can spend their money.
But business only works when consumers actually have money. When they don't have any money, nobody is interested in supplying them with goods and services, and nothing gets built.
Put the money in their pockets, and watch businesspeople trip over themselves to sell them shit.
their designs just had single family homes with kitchens. But Marie Howland convinced them to sketch in small groups of kitchen-free houses, each with access to a shared kitchen, where residents would take turns working.
Austin thought it could be a city of kitchen-less houses. And she thought that the food could to each house on a system of underground trains. She drew maps upon maps, and tons of floor plans. She published her ideas in a journal called ‘The Western Comrade’ and even applied to patent her underground food train idea.
But the kitchen-less house movement still didn’t die. In England, the urban planner Ebenezer Howard actually incorporated kitchen-less homes into some of his “garden city” communities. He called these homes “cooperative quadrangles.” They had a shared courtyard and shared kitchen, surrounded by smaller kitchen-less dwellings.
Those are called "dormitories", and they work very well on college campuses and in the military.
You need a whole host of communal facilities to make them work, including a cafeteria. Dorm life isn't for everyone, but it is certainly feasible.
When I took out a loan from my bank I swear to God for the first 6 months they were absolutely terrified of my spending habits and I got emails daily about how to spend and and how my spending habits were reckless. I've made every payment I don't understand what f****** high horse they were coming from.
And on the flip side, when you're not spending much money, you're being accused of ruining the economy. Especially if you like avocados.
So ... People who have billions of dollars sitting around doing jack and shit, are ruining the economy?
That actually checks out.
Actually yeah. Sequestering money from the economy is one of the worst possible things to do according to economics.
Damn Uncle Scrooges Uncles Scrooge ruining the economy with their improbably swimmable money bins! Where's Magica De Spell when you need her?
I admit that I haven't finished the book "Utopian for Realists", but the author showed numerous studies and practical examples that universal basic income works. And believe it or not, Richard Nixon was close to introducing UBI but his Friedmanite-advisors dissuaded him.
I'm definitely in the not believe it Camp because the president doesn't have that kind of unilateral power to just apply something. It would have required the support of the house and the Senate.
We actually got as far as running a trial of it back then. But we couldn't keep going with it because... The divorce rate went up. And that was obviously super bad. Can't have women escaping, uhh er, deciding they want things.
When they can finally decide on somewhere to eat we can talk about more choices (massive /s just in case)
We let them vote and look at where we are.
I suppose my comment could have been phrased better, but by introducing I mean he wanted to forward UBI to be legislated/legalised by the house and Senate.
I'm gonna be that guy, since there are a lot of comments saying that "research suggests".
Source?
I do fully agree with it. The drug trade is impossible to stop, but decriminalisation and funding of healthcare will help many that are homeless. From tackling these aspects, helping those that want to free roam to do so safely, basically leaves you with those that just need some money to get back on their feet.
But, even if these things seem obvious, they need a source if you're going to speak from a position of fact.
Here's one local to me. Slightly old but quite relevant.
There are a bunch of interacting factors, too. Something like 10% of the homeless are chronically homeless and don't really have good prospects of being able to give themselves housing stability even if given money. This population in particular seems to be better served by the "Housing First" movement where they are given homes and supervised so that they can then get the treatment they need relating to substance abuse, mental health, etc., from a position of at least having a place to go home to. Here is a summary with citations to studies.
But for the housing insecure people who are at risk of becoming part of the 80% of the homeless experiencing transient homelessness, or the already homeless in that category, dropping money in their lap might be an effective way to improve their lives permanently, putting them on a better trajectory. From what I've seen of the reporting of very recent studies, many of which were complicated by the fact that a pandemic happened right in the middle of the experiments, there is some evidence that giving money directly is helpful. But there's open questions about whether it should be a lump sum, whether big numbers ($500+/month) result in something different from small numbers ($25/month), etc.
So yeah, I think even if we start from the assumption that giving directly is more effective than in-kind support like free/subsidized food or healthcare or housing or childcare, or treatment for mental health or substance abuse, we have to figure out which populations are best served by which intervention, and whether temporary/time limited programs are as cost effective as long term commitments, etc.
There have been hundreds of UBI studies at this point. Most of them with headlines in major papers. They all say the same thing.
Source?
There are other comments on this chain hours older than mine with sources. But sure, I'll take a jab at it just for you.
The pilot programs have created scores of stories like Everett’s about how a small amount of money led to massive change in a recipient’s life. And a growing body of research based on the experiments shows that guaranteed income works — that it pulls people out of poverty, improves health outcomes, and makes it easier for people to find jobs and take care of their children. If empirical evidence ruled the world, guaranteed income would be available to every poor person in America, and many of those people would no longer be poor.
That's true, but my original point is that we shouldn't state facts without sources. Otherwise, it's very easy to sneak falsehoods, or to twist that research to fit a narrative.
Except this really is well reported. It's not obscure or contested in science. It's not really what asking for sources is supposed to be for.
Ok but have we tried telling them about Jesus instead of giving them money? They're poor because they're bad. If you give them money then they'll use it to be bad again, which will keep them poor. /s
Fun story. My FIL couldn't afford to travel to our wedding. I loaned him 3k for travel and a tux and hotel fare for his family. That Christmas we got one of those books from Ollies titled "500 ways to save money" from him. I lost the fight to send it back with torn out pages and a note that would say "1-500. Don't lend money to family".
Amazingly shitty.
Idk... Maybe he knew he sucks with money so couldn't offer his own wisdom on the topic, but wanted to help his kid avoid his mistakes however he could
no that would be socialism, silly
How dare these people wanting to improve the life of the poors by giving them handouts. For shame.
*I'm a "poor" and I approve this sarcasm.
The wealthy's deathgrip on their money is phenominally strong
Guillotines have a way of loosening one's grip.
Noo poor people will just use up the money if we give them some!!1!
Then we'll have to give them more pie, and they'll just eat the pie! Eventually they'll eat all of the pie and the poor rich folks won't have any pie :(
Yeah, I'm still salty about that vile skit.
Money is religion now. It's scary to be rational about it. There's a dogma and that's that. Any other way and we freak out.
Ok reusing clothes is not a bad thing. Even in a perfect world with no poverty, it's important to reuse.
Works the same with the climate crisis, amazing!
Cereal for dinner sounds pretty reasonable, what do you think?
Edit 3: one last edit that I'm putting at the top because I'm not sure if people are only reading part of what I've written, jumping to conclusions and then putting words into my mouth; or if I've just been very bad at conveying what I'm trying to say.
Firstly: I'm arguing from an American perspective, something I failed to specify.
Secondly: money is great, however, many people need more than money. By all means, give them money, but make sure they have other resources in case they need it. If nothing else, there are a lot of people in homelessness or poverty with serious mental health needs. Money isn't going to help if they can't afford healthcare.
Thirdly: I also failed to give examples of what I meant by, do something else too. I meant, cap rent, build public housing, ensure that people have access to food even when CEOs are renting out pineapples, etc.
Finally: the US runs on greed. Prices in the US are outstripping wages dramatically because CEOs realized they could charge more. I think the reason why giving money works in studies is because CEOs don't know who's getting the handouts; if they did, they'd absolutely try to fleece them for the assistance money. That's why doing it universally, so that CEOs know that a lot of people are getting additional money, without any other form of assistance, will just lead to people being priced out of life again.
Not sure how much I'll contribute or respond after this. I'm feeling kinda discouraged due to how many people are putting words in my mouth (it may be a misunderstanding, but it's still demoralizing).
Oh my god, I'm using fish as a metaphor for money, and teaching someone to fish as a metaphor for ensuring their ability to provide for themselves. That's what the metaphor is about. Ensuring people's ability to provide for themselves. Is that really what y'all are confused about? If you see me referring to "fish" then I'm talking about money, not food.
I'm not convinced that just cash will solve homelessness or poverty. It may help, but it seems like a "give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he'll eat for a lifetime" kinda situation. Give people the fish so they can eat, but if you want them to actually be independent, then you gotta make sure they have the tools they need to do so.
And you know what, maybe they just are that way, maybe they're just cursed to always be a dependent on someone. However, if that's the case then they're going to need way more help than just fish. In the meantime though, maybe treat them like human beings that are down on their luck but otherwise capable of supporting themselves. Yeah, make sure they have food, a roof over their head, water, toilets and so on, but don't stop there. That's why I'm saying this, there may be people who see your post and think that just throwing money at the problem will make it go away. It'll help, but it's not gonna fix it 100%.
Edit: I'm not sure why it's controversial to say that people need more help than just money. Personally? If I was homeless or in poverty, I'd want more than just money. Like, I'm not saying to not give people who are homeless or in poverty money, but what I'm trying to say is that you shouldn't stop there.
Edit 2: I don't understand why people are so confused here. I'm not saying it won't work for some people, but there are people that it won't work for. To repeat something I said further along, in my experience, there are people who take these things literally. In my experience, there are people who would look at this meme, say, "sounds good, let's do that" and then get mad when it doesn't work for everyone.
I'm not saying that money won't help a lot of people; it would. It's just that there are people who will take this literally and believe it's the only thing you have to do.
Most people who are homeless were a paycheck or two away from homelessness.
It's easier for the housed to become homeless, than for the homeless to become housed. It's systemic, and a good chunk of it is employers mistreating employees.
Okay, and? Again, some people are gonna need more than just money. Furthermore, money doesn't help the fact that they're being overcharged for rent, food, healthcare, whatever. Give them money and the prices will just go up. You have to address the cause too.
The cause is doofuses saying crap like "don't raise the minimum wage, it's inflationary" so that the corporations get away with hunger wages. Countries with significantly higher minimum wages famously don't have significantly more expensive burgers.
I can tell you for a fact I'm working for a burger place right now they haven't raised the wages in 3 years but they've raised the prices three times since then. I'm about to not be working here anymore
Well done for going for something better.
The cause of most inflation is corporate greed, not excessive wealth amongst poor people!
That's because they go the extra mile and do things like cap rent and shit. If you want to solve poverty, that's the kind of thing you have to do. The US is run on greed, which is why prices are rising faster than inflation, but wages aren't even keeping up with inflation.
So what on earth made you think that giving money to poor people would be the cause of inflation?! I'll tell you what, it's corporations spending a lot of money and time buying politicians who will parrot their line that raising the minimum wage will make inflation get out of control, whereas the main thing they're worried about is not making quite such astronomical profits. MW has barely changed in the USA over decades but has risen much more elsewhere. If the theory were right, USA would have been largely free of inflation and the rest of western democracies would be far worse, but I'm fact inflation is bad everywhere. Why? Corporate greed. Poor regulation. International tax avoidance.
US dollars make up nearly 60% of the world's reserve currency. I could be mistaken here, but my understanding is that means a significant chunk of the world is using the USD as a significant part of their currency standard (#2 is the euro with just under 20%). As such, if I understand correctly that means that if the US dollar undergoes inflation, then the rest of the world will experience at least some inflation as well.
MW has barely changed in the USA over decades but has risen much more elsewhere. If the theory were right, USA would have been largely free of inflation...
This is only true if you look at federal minimum wage. Wages aren't keeping up with inflation, but most US cities have an official or unofficial minimum wage of $15/hr. I think that shift happened about 10yrs ago, and afaik nothing's changed since then.
Why? Corporate greed. Poor regulation. International tax avoidance.
Exactly. They knew they could charge more, and so they did. That's what inflation is. Everyone realized they could charge more, so they did. The dollar decreased in value because prices went up across the board.
Inflation.
Seriously? You went from giving some homeless people enough money to get accommodation and food to a global inflation crisis?
I mean ,that's some really absurd fear mongering right there.
You've got to be a Republican if you can swallow or invent nonsense like that. No, global inflation crises are caused by corporate reactions to war and stock market scares, not by charity projects.
Who the f*** ever heard of the global RedCross inflation crisis of 1987?! There wasn't one!
The World Food Programme guacamole price hike of 2014?! There wasn't one!
The International Rescue Committee credit crunch of 2018? There wasn't one!
The The World Health Organization cancer treatment rising expense scandal of 2023? There wasn't one!
Why didn't these things happen?
Because giving people in dire straights enough to get them back on their feet IS NOT a cause of any kind of inflation. Stop making out that your crazy catastrophe theories are even slightly plausible,
Charitable crisis solving is safe. It's unequivocally good for the economy. Keeping people on the streets and hence out of work is bad for the economy. Alleviating abject poverty is unequivocally GOOD.
I give up. You're not reading what I'm saying. I'm actually pretty far left, further left than it seems you or most of the people here are considering how they object to the idea that people should receive whatever assistance they need, not just have money thrown in their face and told to fuck off
Edit: sigh one last try. I think you're fucking with me, and if so then you're doing a really good job, so congrats. Well done, you got me pretty good.
Seriously? You went from giving some homeless people enough money to get accommodation and food to a global inflation crisis?
Actually yes. It sounds unhinged, but when you're talking about rich people, they'll do whatever to get richer. Rich people will unironically bring the economy to the brink of collapse if it means they'll get richer. Where have you been the past, oh I dunno, all of human civilization?
It's not poor people's fault.
It's nothing they've done.
It's all rich people.
Get rid of the rich people. Now you won't have to keep increasing the money you give poor people. Otherwise someone might be able to afford tools today but be unable to buy new ones tomorrow.
I didn't object to any of the extra help. That's a straw man. I just have to keep reminding you that giving people in abject poverty substantial chunks of no-strings unconditional cash has a large and growing body of evidence showing that it's more effective and cheaper than leading with non-cash interventions, which are slow, have limited long term benefits and high drop-out rates. You do them too, later, but you lead with cash. Actual cash. You know, to fix the lack of cash issue that's causing most of the rest of the problems.
That's literally what I've been saying this entire fucking time you dingus.
Edit:
I'm not convinced that just cash will solve homelessness or poverty. It may help, but it seems like a "give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he'll eat for a lifetime" kinda situation. Give people the fish so they can eat, but if you want them to actually be independent, then you gotta make sure they have the tools they need to do so.
Key sentence in bold and italics. From my first comment in this thread.
Not quite, it isn't, not in overall message, and if you read what I said, you'll see that I didn't object to any additional help, I just insist on substantial cash first and reject most firmly your absurd histrionics about inflation.
Research seems to show that a lot of people just need a small step up to get back on track.
So you basically just did the meme.
What about the people that don't? That's what I'm saying. Yes, it'll help significantly, but the meme is presenting it as if it's the only solution.
No, it's presenting as the "primary" solution, which it is.
So start by throwing money at the problem, then see what's left.
What will be left will be mentally ill and addicts which can further be helped by throwing money at support instead of punishing them.
The meme literally says,
"How do we solve poverty"
Research: give poor people money
"Maybe with cheap canned food?"
Research: no, just give them money
"I have old clothes I hate now. I bet giving them away would help!"
Research: No...
"Budget lessons!"
Research: fuck you guys.
It literally says, "no, just give them money."
The reason why I'm hung up on this is because the meme is trying to be informative and funny at the same time but imo it misses the mark because it oversimplifies the issue. It's literally saying that you just give money to poor people and poverty goes away; but that's not how that works. It may help reduce poverty, but capitalists will just raise prices again and now you're back at square one.
Edit: expanded a sentence (in bold).
So it's best to leave the money where it is then?!? WTF? You think that corporations raise prices in order to prevent homeless people from buying their products? What kind of crazy logic is that?
No. What I'm saying is to do more than that. Why is this so fucking hard for people to understand? I feel like I'm going crazy.
In my experience, people take these things literally.
In my experience, there are people who unironically would read this and think, "oh, all we gotta do is give money and then it'll be fixed" and then get mad when it didn't work for everyone.
What am I missing here?
Edit: also,
You think that corporations raise prices in order to prevent homeless people from buying their products? What kind of crazy logic is that?
No. But they're going to hear the words, "[homeless will have] more money to spend [for necessities]" and then start salivating because they're greedy as fuck. Haven't we established that greed is the reason why prices keep getting raised?
You're missing that you yourself argued that giving poor people money would push prices up and wouldn't solve the problem, but charities are increasingly finding that no strings money is the most effective and fastest and surprisingly, cheapest way of getting people out of destitution and into accommodation, employment and reconnection with family.
So please stop saying that giving people money is somehow an ineffective way of dealing with extreme poverty. You're incorrect. It's very effective indeed.
Firstly, I forgot that a lot of countries don't have the same level of greed as the US, but I'm arguing from an American perspective. Giving out money may legitimately work in other countries, but I think American executives are too greedy for something to work like that in the US at an official capacity without additional intervention. Secondly, I'm not trying to say that. I'm saying to do more than that because I believe that companies in the US are too greedy to allow it to "just work".
Money is great, but do more than that.
Money is great, but do more than that.
Money is great, but do more than that.
Like, how many times do I have to repeat myself?
Money is great, but do more than that.
Money is great, but do more than that.
Money is great, but do more than that.
Prices are increasing faster than inflation but wages have stagnated, yet you're saying that more money won't lead to people once again being priced out of life. That runs contrary to what is already going on.
You need to do things like cap rent, build public housing, make sure they can afford food even when CEOs are renting out pineapples, make sure they have transportation, make sure they have somewhere to live, and so on.
The US specifically runs on greed. If CEOs hear that everyone's going to be getting more money, then they're going to start charging more money because that's how the US works. Just giving out money may work for other countries, but the US is fucked as hell. Charities giving out money doesn't equate to everyone in need getting money which is why prices don't increase, companies don't know who to fleece; but if CEOs could find out who was getting the charity money, they'd absolutely try to charge them more. If everyone is getting money, then the CEOs will just fuck people over again to afford a new yacht.
And even then. Even then there will be people in very poor mental health who desperately need attention but they cannot afford mental health services. These people will not be able to function with money alone. These people need serious help. Money alone will not help these people.
The message I'm trying to convey is that you should have other things available to them if they need it; but you seem to be saying to just throw money at them and tell them to fuck off.
I never said you shouldn't do anything else, I only disagreed with you when you suggested that giving them money wouldn't help and that somehow giving homeless people money would be a driver for inflation, but homeless people eating isn't a driver for inflation.
Giving destitute people money does help. It helps a lot.
You can take people to a shrink and a physiotherapist and a doctor as much as you like, but if they don't have food and shelter it's going to do jack shit for their mental health, their physical health and their disease resistance.
Guess what's cheaper than hiring shrinks and physios and medics? Giving homeless people enough money to get food and shelter. Guess what doesn't help homeless people solve their problems? Keeping them on the street trying to scrape together enough cash each day to get into shelter for the night.
So yeah, once you've given them enough money to let them get themselves back into stable accommodation with enough food to eat they have the time to go looking for employment, so then you support them with that. That's when you can supply training, but for goodness sake don't take a homeless person to your employment training before giving them an address.
And yeah, once you've given them enough money to allow them to get themselves back into stable accommodation with enough food to eat and some independent employment, sure, enrol them in medicare.
And yeah, once you've given them enough money to allow them to get themselves back into stable accommodation with enough food to eat and some independent employment, and you enrolled them in medicare and they're having a normal life, guess whose mental health improved A LOT in six months?
So sure, yeah, get them a shrink once they have a life, but for goodness' sake, what kind of an idiot goes to a rough sleeper and says "if we can talk through some of the issues you have with your dad, I'm sure it'll seem a bit less cold at night here."?!
And can you please permanently get lost with the thinking that says that we NEED abject poverty and starving people and rough sleepers to keep prices low?! Seriously, shut up. It's not working. It never worked. The USA has some insane levels of inequality and it didn't keep prices low in the USA. It just doesn't. False. Crazy talk. Stop it. Wrong. No. Doesn't help. Never helped. The poorest people having money was NEVER the cause of inflation. Nope, it isn't, it won't be. Please don't come back with that shit again. Stop saying it because it's really very stupid indeed.
I'm not convinced that just cash will solve homelessness or poverty. It may help, but it seems like a "give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he'll eat for a lifetime" kinda situation. Give people the fish so they can eat, but if you want them to actually be independent, then you gotta make sure they have the tools they need to do so.
I think the reason you've taken so much flak is that money isn't fish. Money can be converted into tools. Yes, of course you're right that some people won't use the money in a way which will end their homelessness, and may benefit from 'other programs'. But the meme was specifically about people objecting to the idea of giving poor people money so that they can solve their own problems. Rolling out 'other programs' is great, but the 'other programs' will be much more effective if they're not clogged with people that can solve their own problems with a bit of cash.
Right... But they gotta be able to afford to continually afford those tools. Rich people try to suck at much money out of people as possible. The moment they hear that poor people are receiving money is the moment they smell blood in the water. They'll just hike up prices in response. That's why I'm not convinced that throwing money at poor people will work.
It's not their fault.
They didn't do anything wrong.
It's the rich people who are the problem.
Get rid of the rich people or their ability to price people out of life and boom! Now the money you give poor people will remain effective. Otherwise they might be able to buy tools today, but the money might not be enough to buy tools again tomorrow.
Thing is, the research into direct cash transfusions and other straight basic income has shown that poor people generally have a very good idea of what they specifically need to do to get out of poverty, be that a gym membership to shower, good clothes, a bike or car, an apartment, someplace to keep documents and medications where they won’t be thrown out by cops, getting a GED after their parents threw them out for being gay, a preschool because their minimum wage job won’t let them keep a baby around the building, or other prerequisite to getting a job / a job that pays well enough for an apartment, they just don’t have the money to actually do any of it.
A person have a good community kitchen they can go to and get free food, and as such food stamps are worthless to them, but they can’t spend that same pittance on something that would actually help them get out of poverty like clothes and a gym membership or saving up for a small car where they can store their stuff and get to jobs, all because a government commite of people and lobbyists who have never lived outside of a gated community have decided what each poor persons budget should look like and coincidentally they all look the same.
People know how to learn to catch fish, they just can’t do it without the right tools, or because they have to be back standing in line at the shelter by 3PM each day.
We can choose to either provide for those who lack food, housing, and other things, or we can choose not to. We often choose not to despite having both sufficient food and shelter.
We can also choose to pursue the goal of making the poor independent.
But if we choose to leave people unprovided for, that is just what we have chosen. There is no way around that.
Making the poor independent is a separate project, in the same vein as making people stop being violent, or unhealthy, or depressed, or sick. An eternal pursuit , with a curious caveat. Because in the case of the poor, if the population of dependent poor die off while the newly improved Independent population remains, it would be a success. No more dependants is the goal, quite literally. It is treated more like ridding ourselves of leeches.
Because contribution is demanded, no matter how banale, cynical, useless, performative or downright harmful. Marketing, manipulation, waste and serving up garbage is all much better than the insufficiently productive poor. Learn to weld, only to make giant steel flower beds to decorate an apartment building, supply the ridiculous demand. Supplying something is the point, regardless of how necessary the demand is.
There's also the matter that we've chosen very explicitly to disallow the poor any power to simply leave the city and establish their of towns of rejects with the materials that exist in nature, as harvesting huge quantities of wood and clay without permissions – unlikely to be obtained – is expressly illegal. Apparently we have to, to protect the environment from people. But it's not civilization's responsibility to rectify that injustice, is it? It can just disallow you your shelter and leave it at that. Civilization does not have to compensate a man for the option it has taken away from him.
Financial education, it's practically intentional that we don't learn proper finance management and if you're family didn't manage money well (poor or rich) you'll struggle to use any money you get effectively when your out on your own
Your solution is literally just "give money"? That only works in some instances, where a person is struggling because of bad luck or whatever, but has a desire to improve their situation. But if they are a substance abuser or are mentally ill, money isn't going to help like housing would, since they either don't know what to do with it, or they prioritize drugs over shelter.
And most cases of substance abuse come from people living in a society with no community and no safety nets. Even if you give everyone a thousand bucks a month but society is stil hell, it solves very little.
Yeah it's not like there is one problem and one solution. Some turn to drugs to escape their situation or because they have bad coping mechanisms, while others get into drugs and their life falls apart because of it.
Theres a difference between homelessness and poverty.
Yes, and they require different solutions. UBI is an attempt to solve poverty, but won't do much for homelessness.
9 times out of 10, people are poor simply because they are poor, not because of some moral failing on their part. But instead we tell ourselves comforting lies that they must have done something wrong. We tell ourselves this because as long as we don't do those wrong things, we don't end up poor or homeless.
In truth, all that is necessary to be homeless is for the cost of housing to rise above the market value of your skill set. That is all. Or a severe illness is all that's really required.
I don't think it's so much a moral failing, but one of privilege in the form of being raised in a stable family, having positive role models and being taught basic life skills. If your parents weren't around to teach you these things or if you were preoccupied with survival as a kid, then you are not equipped to thrive in life. Through no fault of your own. Had you been taught some of these things, then you could be self sufficient. Of course illness, changing job markets, rental costs, inflation, and so on can impact a person's situation as well, but these can be semi reasonably planned for as well, if you know how.
I'd say with those people you just need to give the money to a care giver instead of directly to the person... But it's still just giving money without making them jump through all kinds of dehumanizing hoops
Yeah that or provide housing and help for their addiction or mental issues. Money doesn't help them at all. People need shelter and food more than they need money. Money is just a means to store value and make transactions, and in their case, those transactions are food and shelter, so why not provide those first? It doesn't help to give the societal currency if you aren't equipped to exist in that society anyway.
The entire body of research on "housing first" disproves this classist bullshit. You are literally doing the exact thing OP is talking about. People HAVE done the research and found that giving people housing is the most effective way to help people. It is the most effective way to help people with drug addictions.
Most people do drugs because there is something objectively terrible about their lives. If you had to sleep on the sidewalk, wouldn't you want to get high all day? If you say no, you're delusional.
I'm confused. It sounds like you are disagreeing with me, but basically reworded exactly what I said.
I mean... Money can be traded for shelter and food.
Yeah but the point is if you don't know how to spend it responsibly, then what good is it? If you spend it on drugs or alcohol because that's more important to you than shelter, which is the case for serious addicts, then it doesn't help you. Instead it only enables your addiction and keeps you on the street.
Yeah... Then they'd need someone helping them with their money I guess. If I had a magic wand I'd make all substances legal but manufacture and sales strictly controlled by the government... When someone gets to the point where the addiction is so bad they'd choose substance over housing or food, offer them free housing and all the drugs they want for free, but the housing is a special community just for that, with like therapists and nurses galore. When they're ready to stop using move them to the recovery community... Still free housing but also start reintroducing them to alternative activities besides drugs... All of this would require a shit ton of money though... And right now that money is almost all going to the pharma companies for their alternative drugs that never actually get people off drugs
In general the concept sounds ok, but I think the reality would make it a death camp since many of those drugs are so addictive that you simply won't break free on your own, without being forced to quit.
If they want to be forced that should be an option too... But so should the option of continuing to use until it kills you... but even then we should do our best to keep them as healthy and comfortable as possible because in the long run it costs society less that way and it's easier to get out of when they decide to
I don't think you are doing drug addicts any favors by letting them continue to use. Their life is better without that addiction and a healthy society would help them as much as possible and feasible. I'm all for personal freedom, but I don't view addiction as being free.
Addiction isn't freedom... But the only way to beat it is for that person to choose to fight it themselves... Until they make that choice we're just wasting time, energy, and money trying to force them to
Yeah they have to want to or it won't work.
bUt SoMeTiMeS
Yes, sometimes, you moron. Did you have anything of value to add to the conversation or is that the extent of your contribution?
Yup. Programmes that have experimented with giving homeless people hundreds in no-rules cash find that within a couple of months most of them have secured accommodation and reconnected with family and friends. After a while the majority are in paid employment.
Who would have guessed that the most of the problems of extreme poverty could be solved with money?!
Next you're going to tell me you can solve homelessness by giving people housing
Yes. But in more controversial news, you can solve hunger with.... money!
It's like giving people money empowers them to choose to fix their problems, most important ones first.
The surprising bit is that drug use rates drop substantially if people can cope with everyday life.
Drug use rates also decrease with accessible medical and mental health care. It's almost like treating the cause works better than punishing the symptoms...
Well then, seems to me like money itself is the issue
Who'd've thunk it?
Problem: poverty.
Solution: money.
Problem: no money
Solution: you guessed it it's money
Problem: money
Solution: get rid of money.
Obviously, we should stop people from sleeping outside by adding pikes everywhere. That's how you solve the problem!
But I'm using these bootstraps, they can go find their own!
I almost thought this was going a different way. I'm happy to be wrong.
I imagine some capitalist, right-wing fucker is screaming at their screen going "nu-uhhh" and furiously typing that you're wrong despite having done zero research.
I'm employed, and I live like I'm in poverty. As much as I want to lift up the homeless, I would also appreciate fair wages for the employed.
Since rent/housing has gone insane, I'm having a hard time making things work on the money I'm making. I'm well over the "poverty" line and I can't afford to put fuel in my car and buy name brand products, even if I wanted to. Products like.... Idk, Campbell's.
Minimum wage desperately needs to rise. It's not either or.
I agree.
Everything needs to rise IMO. Except for the highest levels of management.
My job in 2016 paid 90% of what I make now. Inflation in that time has been around 25%, and I've only increased around 10%...
Minimum wage is far worse, I know this, but just because minimum wage needs to increase doesn't and shouldn't imply other areas don't also need to be increased.
I'm in a more senior position, and I've changed jobs at least three times to get where I am now. If minimum goes up, I won't be angry about it, but I will be left wondering why I'm not also getting more.
Companies need workers and wages have been stagnant, and plenty of working people who used to be middle class, are now homeless, despite still being employed.
The whole situation is fucked and the only people profiting out of everything are the wage theives at the top and their shareholder friends.
I knew such a right wing fucker had to exist, so I found him for you: https://youtu.be/lNgqNE78N1g
Guy runs two channels, both animated right wing propaganda. That's the more serious of the two, the other has shit like this: https://youtu.be/X6Xe3SGUH6A
But to take it a bit further, high capacity public infrastructure can go a long way towards improving the lives of low income working people.
Trains, buses, and subways can eliminate the need to own and maintain a car. Public housing can get people off the street, where they won't be at risk of harm from interpersonal violence or exposure to severe weather. Public education and public health care have more benefits than I could list.
At an individual level, "Just give people money" is an immediate and useful generic panacea. But at a more macro level, geographic access to grocery stores and clinics and colleges and bus stops and permanent homes and factories matter just as much.
Clearly, the Venn of those who're empowered to make those changes and those who've played at least a couple hours of SimCity is two estranged circles.
It needs to be quality of those things, as well. And they know this. It's designed to keep us too tired, broken physically and mentally to get off the wheel, and not just under it, either. There's enough for everyone, just some few want to hoard it like decades worth of paper, not because it may come in handy, just because bloodsport is still entertainment, no matter how well they dress it.
Oh absolutely. I have a bus stop on my corner, but it only picks up every 2 hours and then doesn't go to downtown.
Kropotkin was saying it over a century ago. Bread Book, baby.
People periodically ask how a country like Denmark or New Zealand or Japan can have such high standards of living relative to their individual incomes. Or why a country like the UK or Saudia Arabia can be so rich and yet appear so poor from a street level view.
So much boils down to who has access to quality infrastructure.
True enough. With apologies to mlk2, I may not get there with you, but I've seen it in my dreams. I hope we get there, with or without me. If you do, guard it vigilantly.
The real problem is zoning. If the density is high enough (and mixed-use enough), people can just fucking walk places whether you've got public transit or not!
Even in areas where we have zoned for dense real estate, we've built these four lane boulevards with barely a crosswalk between them.
At some level, we could use a little zoning. Pedestrianization isn't going to happen via the free market.
FTFY.
Money without a place to spend it isn't useful.
Where are we that Amazon won't deliver?
Anywhere without Internet, for starters.
6530 Starlink satellites in low earth orbit tell me that if there is such a location, it is not within the contiguous 48 states. If they have the money, there is an option for the Internet access. Giving them the money remains the solution.
Don't satellites require receivers?
As far as I know, connecting to the internet requires some kind of device or another. I don't know if any Internet access point that operates on telepathy.
One thing that all of those accessing devices have in common is that "money" is required to initially obtain them, and/or to maintain connectivity to the serving provider.
Even more important than "money" tends to be "electricity". Which is why public investment in cheaper and cleaner power sources is the baseline for any kind of urban development.
True, but largely irrelevant to the issue at hand: It turns out that "electricity" is yet another thing that a needy individual can acquire with "money".
Go out into the woods and buy some electricity.
Ok. Yet another problem that can be solved when the individual has a little money.
Despite this, I reject the premise of your argument: the predominant reason an impoverished person wouldn't have access to Internet isn't due to a lack of infrastructure. It is due to an inability to pay for it. The predominant reason an impoverished person wouldn't have access to electricity isn't due to a lack of infrastructure. It is due to a lack of ability to pay for it.
No, the rest of that is also accurate info.
According to the meme, my response is supposed to be "Fuck you guys."
Personally, I'm a proponent of UBI. An economic system where everyone receives a small, regular income, automatically, no strings attached, no means testing, no limitations or requirements on how it is spent. That income should be enough to meet the individual's basic sustenance needs. Not enough to be comfortable, but enough that you would not need to rely on your savings if you were out of work for a few months. Enough that you can take a chance on better employment, starting a business, going back to school, without worrying about homelessness.
With our current system, you start off Monday morning below the poverty line, and 85% of us cross it before the end of day on Friday.
UBI says you cross the poverty line before you leave the house; every hour you work is for disposable income, not basic survival.
Yes, the solution really is "give them the money".
I really don't know why you've got so few upvotes, and equitable down votes, because this is great and succinct.
Here’s some emphasis for you. “Give them money” is a part of the solution, but it can only go so far when they lack access to places to spend that money. And no, delivery is not a real solution. It’s a very expensive bandaid.
Places to spend it are pointless until they have money to spend. But if they have money to spend, people are going to come and try to get it, and they will be bringing the infrastructure with them. You don't have to build it; it will build itself once the people have money to spend.
First, there are more than enough resources to tackle multiple issues at a time. Just because the money is the more important aspect doesn’t mean we can’t also invest in things to improve people’s quality of life.
Second, this:
Is probably the most ridiculous rebuttal you could have come up with. People will bring the infrastructure with them? It will build itself? Where the hell do you think these things come from?
Yes.
Where people need food and have money, someone builds a produce stand, a convenience store, a grocery store, a supermarket, whatever other infrastructure the consumer base will support in their quest to do business. They want the money the consumers have, so businesspeople build the places where consumers can spend their money.
But business only works when consumers actually have money. When they don't have any money, nobody is interested in supplying them with goods and services, and nothing gets built.
Put the money in their pockets, and watch businesspeople trip over themselves to sell them shit.
I Sweden a liberal lobby group suggested "build apartments without kitchens" for poor people. It is so fucking dystopian.
Isn't that just a hotel room?
Housing without kitchens has come up in modern history multiple times: https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/the-frankfurt-kitchen/
Those are called "dormitories", and they work very well on college campuses and in the military.
You need a whole host of communal facilities to make them work, including a cafeteria. Dorm life isn't for everyone, but it is certainly feasible.
When I took out a loan from my bank I swear to God for the first 6 months they were absolutely terrified of my spending habits and I got emails daily about how to spend and and how my spending habits were reckless. I've made every payment I don't understand what f****** high horse they were coming from.
And on the flip side, when you're not spending much money, you're being accused of ruining the economy. Especially if you like avocados.
So ... People who have billions of dollars sitting around doing jack and shit, are ruining the economy?
That actually checks out.
Actually yeah. Sequestering money from the economy is one of the worst possible things to do according to economics.
Damn
Uncle ScroogesUncles Scrooge ruining the economy with their improbably swimmable money bins! Where's Magica De Spell when you need her?I admit that I haven't finished the book "Utopian for Realists", but the author showed numerous studies and practical examples that universal basic income works. And believe it or not, Richard Nixon was close to introducing UBI but his Friedmanite-advisors dissuaded him.
I'm definitely in the not believe it Camp because the president doesn't have that kind of unilateral power to just apply something. It would have required the support of the house and the Senate.
We actually got as far as running a trial of it back then. But we couldn't keep going with it because... The divorce rate went up. And that was obviously super bad. Can't have women escaping, uhh er, deciding they want things.
When they can finally decide on somewhere to eat we can talk about more choices (massive /s just in case)
We let them vote and look at where we are.
I suppose my comment could have been phrased better, but by introducing I mean he wanted to forward UBI to be legislated/legalised by the house and Senate.
I'm gonna be that guy, since there are a lot of comments saying that "research suggests".
Source?
I do fully agree with it. The drug trade is impossible to stop, but decriminalisation and funding of healthcare will help many that are homeless. From tackling these aspects, helping those that want to free roam to do so safely, basically leaves you with those that just need some money to get back on their feet.
But, even if these things seem obvious, they need a source if you're going to speak from a position of fact.
Assuming the link works, this is a great resource of research papers on the topic - https://www.givedirectly.org/cash-evidence-explorer/
Here's one local to me. Slightly old but quite relevant.
There are a bunch of interacting factors, too. Something like 10% of the homeless are chronically homeless and don't really have good prospects of being able to give themselves housing stability even if given money. This population in particular seems to be better served by the "Housing First" movement where they are given homes and supervised so that they can then get the treatment they need relating to substance abuse, mental health, etc., from a position of at least having a place to go home to. Here is a summary with citations to studies.
But for the housing insecure people who are at risk of becoming part of the 80% of the homeless experiencing transient homelessness, or the already homeless in that category, dropping money in their lap might be an effective way to improve their lives permanently, putting them on a better trajectory. From what I've seen of the reporting of very recent studies, many of which were complicated by the fact that a pandemic happened right in the middle of the experiments, there is some evidence that giving money directly is helpful. But there's open questions about whether it should be a lump sum, whether big numbers ($500+/month) result in something different from small numbers ($25/month), etc.
So yeah, I think even if we start from the assumption that giving directly is more effective than in-kind support like free/subsidized food or healthcare or housing or childcare, or treatment for mental health or substance abuse, we have to figure out which populations are best served by which intervention, and whether temporary/time limited programs are as cost effective as long term commitments, etc.
There have been hundreds of UBI studies at this point. Most of them with headlines in major papers. They all say the same thing.
Source?
There are other comments on this chain hours older than mine with sources. But sure, I'll take a jab at it just for you.
-Washington Post
We've known for years, decades really.
That's true, but my original point is that we shouldn't state facts without sources. Otherwise, it's very easy to sneak falsehoods, or to twist that research to fit a narrative.
Except this really is well reported. It's not obscure or contested in science. It's not really what asking for sources is supposed to be for.
Ok but have we tried telling them about Jesus instead of giving them money? They're poor because they're bad. If you give them money then they'll use it to be bad again, which will keep them poor. /s
Fun story. My FIL couldn't afford to travel to our wedding. I loaned him 3k for travel and a tux and hotel fare for his family. That Christmas we got one of those books from Ollies titled "500 ways to save money" from him. I lost the fight to send it back with torn out pages and a note that would say "1-500. Don't lend money to family".
Amazingly shitty.
Idk... Maybe he knew he sucks with money so couldn't offer his own wisdom on the topic, but wanted to help his kid avoid his mistakes however he could
no that would be socialism, silly
How dare these people wanting to improve the life of the poors by giving them handouts. For shame.
*I'm a "poor" and I approve this sarcasm.
The wealthy's deathgrip on their money is phenominally strong
Guillotines have a way of loosening one's grip.
Noo poor people will just use up the money if we give them some!!1!
Then we'll have to give them more pie, and they'll just eat the pie! Eventually they'll eat all of the pie and the poor rich folks won't have any pie :(
Yeah, I'm still salty about that vile skit.
Money is religion now. It's scary to be rational about it. There's a dogma and that's that. Any other way and we freak out.
Ok reusing clothes is not a bad thing. Even in a perfect world with no poverty, it's important to reuse.
Works the same with the climate crisis, amazing!
Cereal for dinner sounds pretty reasonable, what do you think?
Edit 3: one last edit that I'm putting at the top because I'm not sure if people are only reading part of what I've written, jumping to conclusions and then putting words into my mouth; or if I've just been very bad at conveying what I'm trying to say.
Firstly: I'm arguing from an American perspective, something I failed to specify.
Secondly: money is great, however, many people need more than money. By all means, give them money, but make sure they have other resources in case they need it. If nothing else, there are a lot of people in homelessness or poverty with serious mental health needs. Money isn't going to help if they can't afford healthcare.
Thirdly: I also failed to give examples of what I meant by, do something else too. I meant, cap rent, build public housing, ensure that people have access to food even when CEOs are renting out pineapples, etc.
Finally: the US runs on greed. Prices in the US are outstripping wages dramatically because CEOs realized they could charge more. I think the reason why giving money works in studies is because CEOs don't know who's getting the handouts; if they did, they'd absolutely try to fleece them for the assistance money. That's why doing it universally, so that CEOs know that a lot of people are getting additional money, without any other form of assistance, will just lead to people being priced out of life again.
Not sure how much I'll contribute or respond after this. I'm feeling kinda discouraged due to how many people are putting words in my mouth (it may be a misunderstanding, but it's still demoralizing).
Oh my god, I'm using fish as a metaphor for money, and teaching someone to fish as a metaphor for ensuring their ability to provide for themselves. That's what the metaphor is about. Ensuring people's ability to provide for themselves. Is that really what y'all are confused about? If you see me referring to "fish" then I'm talking about money, not food.
I'm not convinced that just cash will solve homelessness or poverty. It may help, but it seems like a "give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he'll eat for a lifetime" kinda situation. Give people the fish so they can eat, but if you want them to actually be independent, then you gotta make sure they have the tools they need to do so.
And you know what, maybe they just are that way, maybe they're just cursed to always be a dependent on someone. However, if that's the case then they're going to need way more help than just fish. In the meantime though, maybe treat them like human beings that are down on their luck but otherwise capable of supporting themselves. Yeah, make sure they have food, a roof over their head, water, toilets and so on, but don't stop there. That's why I'm saying this, there may be people who see your post and think that just throwing money at the problem will make it go away. It'll help, but it's not gonna fix it 100%.
Edit: I'm not sure why it's controversial to say that people need more help than just money. Personally? If I was homeless or in poverty, I'd want more than just money. Like, I'm not saying to not give people who are homeless or in poverty money, but what I'm trying to say is that you shouldn't stop there.
Edit 2: I don't understand why people are so confused here. I'm not saying it won't work for some people, but there are people that it won't work for. To repeat something I said further along, in my experience, there are people who take these things literally. In my experience, there are people who would look at this meme, say, "sounds good, let's do that" and then get mad when it doesn't work for everyone.
I'm not saying that money won't help a lot of people; it would. It's just that there are people who will take this literally and believe it's the only thing you have to do.
Most people who are homeless were a paycheck or two away from homelessness.
It's easier for the housed to become homeless, than for the homeless to become housed. It's systemic, and a good chunk of it is employers mistreating employees.
Okay, and? Again, some people are gonna need more than just money. Furthermore, money doesn't help the fact that they're being overcharged for rent, food, healthcare, whatever. Give them money and the prices will just go up. You have to address the cause too.
The cause is doofuses saying crap like "don't raise the minimum wage, it's inflationary" so that the corporations get away with hunger wages. Countries with significantly higher minimum wages famously don't have significantly more expensive burgers.
I can tell you for a fact I'm working for a burger place right now they haven't raised the wages in 3 years but they've raised the prices three times since then. I'm about to not be working here anymore
Well done for going for something better.
The cause of most inflation is corporate greed, not excessive wealth amongst poor people!
That's because they go the extra mile and do things like cap rent and shit. If you want to solve poverty, that's the kind of thing you have to do. The US is run on greed, which is why prices are rising faster than inflation, but wages aren't even keeping up with inflation.
So what on earth made you think that giving money to poor people would be the cause of inflation?! I'll tell you what, it's corporations spending a lot of money and time buying politicians who will parrot their line that raising the minimum wage will make inflation get out of control, whereas the main thing they're worried about is not making quite such astronomical profits. MW has barely changed in the USA over decades but has risen much more elsewhere. If the theory were right, USA would have been largely free of inflation and the rest of western democracies would be far worse, but I'm fact inflation is bad everywhere. Why? Corporate greed. Poor regulation. International tax avoidance.
US dollars make up nearly 60% of the world's reserve currency. I could be mistaken here, but my understanding is that means a significant chunk of the world is using the USD as a significant part of their currency standard (#2 is the euro with just under 20%). As such, if I understand correctly that means that if the US dollar undergoes inflation, then the rest of the world will experience at least some inflation as well.
This is only true if you look at federal minimum wage. Wages aren't keeping up with inflation, but most US cities have an official or unofficial minimum wage of $15/hr. I think that shift happened about 10yrs ago, and afaik nothing's changed since then.
Exactly. They knew they could charge more, and so they did. That's what inflation is. Everyone realized they could charge more, so they did. The dollar decreased in value because prices went up across the board.
Inflation.
Seriously? You went from giving some homeless people enough money to get accommodation and food to a global inflation crisis?
I mean ,that's some really absurd fear mongering right there.
You've got to be a Republican if you can swallow or invent nonsense like that. No, global inflation crises are caused by corporate reactions to war and stock market scares, not by charity projects.
Who the f*** ever heard of the global RedCross inflation crisis of 1987?! There wasn't one!
The World Food Programme guacamole price hike of 2014?! There wasn't one!
The International Rescue Committee credit crunch of 2018? There wasn't one!
The The World Health Organization cancer treatment rising expense scandal of 2023? There wasn't one!
Why didn't these things happen?
Because giving people in dire straights enough to get them back on their feet IS NOT a cause of any kind of inflation. Stop making out that your crazy catastrophe theories are even slightly plausible,
Charitable crisis solving is safe. It's unequivocally good for the economy. Keeping people on the streets and hence out of work is bad for the economy. Alleviating abject poverty is unequivocally GOOD.
I give up. You're not reading what I'm saying. I'm actually pretty far left, further left than it seems you or most of the people here are considering how they object to the idea that people should receive whatever assistance they need, not just have money thrown in their face and told to fuck off
Edit: sigh one last try. I think you're fucking with me, and if so then you're doing a really good job, so congrats. Well done, you got me pretty good.
Actually yes. It sounds unhinged, but when you're talking about rich people, they'll do whatever to get richer. Rich people will unironically bring the economy to the brink of collapse if it means they'll get richer. Where have you been the past, oh I dunno, all of human civilization?
It's not poor people's fault.
It's nothing they've done.
It's all rich people.
Get rid of the rich people. Now you won't have to keep increasing the money you give poor people. Otherwise someone might be able to afford tools today but be unable to buy new ones tomorrow.
I didn't object to any of the extra help. That's a straw man. I just have to keep reminding you that giving people in abject poverty substantial chunks of no-strings unconditional cash has a large and growing body of evidence showing that it's more effective and cheaper than leading with non-cash interventions, which are slow, have limited long term benefits and high drop-out rates. You do them too, later, but you lead with cash. Actual cash. You know, to fix the lack of cash issue that's causing most of the rest of the problems.
That's literally what I've been saying this entire fucking time you dingus.
Edit:
Key sentence in bold and italics. From my first comment in this thread.
Not quite, it isn't, not in overall message, and if you read what I said, you'll see that I didn't object to any additional help, I just insist on substantial cash first and reject most firmly your absurd histrionics about inflation.
Research seems to show that a lot of people just need a small step up to get back on track.
So you basically just did the meme.
What about the people that don't? That's what I'm saying. Yes, it'll help significantly, but the meme is presenting it as if it's the only solution.
No, it's presenting as the "primary" solution, which it is.
So start by throwing money at the problem, then see what's left.
What will be left will be mentally ill and addicts which can further be helped by throwing money at support instead of punishing them.
The meme literally says,
It literally says, "no, just give them money."
The reason why I'm hung up on this is because the meme is trying to be informative and funny at the same time but imo it misses the mark because it oversimplifies the issue. It's literally saying that you just give money to poor people and poverty goes away; but that's not how that works. It may help reduce poverty, but capitalists will just raise prices again and now you're back at square one.
Edit: expanded a sentence (in bold).
So it's best to leave the money where it is then?!? WTF? You think that corporations raise prices in order to prevent homeless people from buying their products? What kind of crazy logic is that?
No. What I'm saying is to do more than that. Why is this so fucking hard for people to understand? I feel like I'm going crazy.
In my experience, people take these things literally.
In my experience, there are people who unironically would read this and think, "oh, all we gotta do is give money and then it'll be fixed" and then get mad when it didn't work for everyone.
What am I missing here?
Edit: also,
No. But they're going to hear the words, "[homeless will have] more money to spend [for necessities]" and then start salivating because they're greedy as fuck. Haven't we established that greed is the reason why prices keep getting raised?
You're missing that you yourself argued that giving poor people money would push prices up and wouldn't solve the problem, but charities are increasingly finding that no strings money is the most effective and fastest and surprisingly, cheapest way of getting people out of destitution and into accommodation, employment and reconnection with family.
So please stop saying that giving people money is somehow an ineffective way of dealing with extreme poverty. You're incorrect. It's very effective indeed.
Firstly, I forgot that a lot of countries don't have the same level of greed as the US, but I'm arguing from an American perspective. Giving out money may legitimately work in other countries, but I think American executives are too greedy for something to work like that in the US at an official capacity without additional intervention. Secondly, I'm not trying to say that. I'm saying to do more than that because I believe that companies in the US are too greedy to allow it to "just work".
Money is great, but do more than that.
Money is great, but do more than that.
Money is great, but do more than that.
Like, how many times do I have to repeat myself?
Money is great, but do more than that.
Money is great, but do more than that.
Money is great, but do more than that.
Prices are increasing faster than inflation but wages have stagnated, yet you're saying that more money won't lead to people once again being priced out of life. That runs contrary to what is already going on.
You need to do things like cap rent, build public housing, make sure they can afford food even when CEOs are renting out pineapples, make sure they have transportation, make sure they have somewhere to live, and so on.
The US specifically runs on greed. If CEOs hear that everyone's going to be getting more money, then they're going to start charging more money because that's how the US works. Just giving out money may work for other countries, but the US is fucked as hell. Charities giving out money doesn't equate to everyone in need getting money which is why prices don't increase, companies don't know who to fleece; but if CEOs could find out who was getting the charity money, they'd absolutely try to charge them more. If everyone is getting money, then the CEOs will just fuck people over again to afford a new yacht.
And even then. Even then there will be people in very poor mental health who desperately need attention but they cannot afford mental health services. These people will not be able to function with money alone. These people need serious help. Money alone will not help these people.
The message I'm trying to convey is that you should have other things available to them if they need it; but you seem to be saying to just throw money at them and tell them to fuck off.
I never said you shouldn't do anything else, I only disagreed with you when you suggested that giving them money wouldn't help and that somehow giving homeless people money would be a driver for inflation, but homeless people eating isn't a driver for inflation.
Guess what's cheaper than hiring shrinks and physios and medics? Giving homeless people enough money to get food and shelter. Guess what doesn't help homeless people solve their problems? Keeping them on the street trying to scrape together enough cash each day to get into shelter for the night.
And can you please permanently get lost with the thinking that says that we NEED abject poverty and starving people and rough sleepers to keep prices low?! Seriously, shut up. It's not working. It never worked. The USA has some insane levels of inequality and it didn't keep prices low in the USA. It just doesn't. False. Crazy talk. Stop it. Wrong. No. Doesn't help. Never helped. The poorest people having money was NEVER the cause of inflation. Nope, it isn't, it won't be. Please don't come back with that shit again. Stop saying it because it's really very stupid indeed.
I think the reason you've taken so much flak is that money isn't fish. Money can be converted into tools. Yes, of course you're right that some people won't use the money in a way which will end their homelessness, and may benefit from 'other programs'. But the meme was specifically about people objecting to the idea of giving poor people money so that they can solve their own problems. Rolling out 'other programs' is great, but the 'other programs' will be much more effective if they're not clogged with people that can solve their own problems with a bit of cash.
Right... But they gotta be able to afford to continually afford those tools. Rich people try to suck at much money out of people as possible. The moment they hear that poor people are receiving money is the moment they smell blood in the water. They'll just hike up prices in response. That's why I'm not convinced that throwing money at poor people will work.
It's not their fault.
They didn't do anything wrong.
It's the rich people who are the problem.
Get rid of the rich people or their ability to price people out of life and boom! Now the money you give poor people will remain effective. Otherwise they might be able to buy tools today, but the money might not be enough to buy tools again tomorrow.
Thing is, the research into direct cash transfusions and other straight basic income has shown that poor people generally have a very good idea of what they specifically need to do to get out of poverty, be that a gym membership to shower, good clothes, a bike or car, an apartment, someplace to keep documents and medications where they won’t be thrown out by cops, getting a GED after their parents threw them out for being gay, a preschool because their minimum wage job won’t let them keep a baby around the building, or other prerequisite to getting a job / a job that pays well enough for an apartment, they just don’t have the money to actually do any of it.
A person have a good community kitchen they can go to and get free food, and as such food stamps are worthless to them, but they can’t spend that same pittance on something that would actually help them get out of poverty like clothes and a gym membership or saving up for a small car where they can store their stuff and get to jobs, all because a government commite of people and lobbyists who have never lived outside of a gated community have decided what each poor persons budget should look like and coincidentally they all look the same.
People know how to learn to catch fish, they just can’t do it without the right tools, or because they have to be back standing in line at the shelter by 3PM each day.
We can choose to either provide for those who lack food, housing, and other things, or we can choose not to. We often choose not to despite having both sufficient food and shelter.
We can also choose to pursue the goal of making the poor independent.
But if we choose to leave people unprovided for, that is just what we have chosen. There is no way around that.
Making the poor independent is a separate project, in the same vein as making people stop being violent, or unhealthy, or depressed, or sick. An eternal pursuit , with a curious caveat. Because in the case of the poor, if the population of dependent poor die off while the newly improved Independent population remains, it would be a success. No more dependants is the goal, quite literally. It is treated more like ridding ourselves of leeches.
Because contribution is demanded, no matter how banale, cynical, useless, performative or downright harmful. Marketing, manipulation, waste and serving up garbage is all much better than the insufficiently productive poor. Learn to weld, only to make giant steel flower beds to decorate an apartment building, supply the ridiculous demand. Supplying something is the point, regardless of how necessary the demand is.
There's also the matter that we've chosen very explicitly to disallow the poor any power to simply leave the city and establish their of towns of rejects with the materials that exist in nature, as harvesting huge quantities of wood and clay without permissions – unlikely to be obtained – is expressly illegal. Apparently we have to, to protect the environment from people. But it's not civilization's responsibility to rectify that injustice, is it? It can just disallow you your shelter and leave it at that. Civilization does not have to compensate a man for the option it has taken away from him.
People just need enough to buy a rod
Financial education, it's practically intentional that we don't learn proper finance management and if you're family didn't manage money well (poor or rich) you'll struggle to use any money you get effectively when your out on your own
Your solution is literally just "give money"? That only works in some instances, where a person is struggling because of bad luck or whatever, but has a desire to improve their situation. But if they are a substance abuser or are mentally ill, money isn't going to help like housing would, since they either don't know what to do with it, or they prioritize drugs over shelter.
And most cases of substance abuse come from people living in a society with no community and no safety nets. Even if you give everyone a thousand bucks a month but society is stil hell, it solves very little.
Yeah it's not like there is one problem and one solution. Some turn to drugs to escape their situation or because they have bad coping mechanisms, while others get into drugs and their life falls apart because of it.
Theres a difference between homelessness and poverty.
Yes, and they require different solutions. UBI is an attempt to solve poverty, but won't do much for homelessness.
9 times out of 10, people are poor simply because they are poor, not because of some moral failing on their part. But instead we tell ourselves comforting lies that they must have done something wrong. We tell ourselves this because as long as we don't do those wrong things, we don't end up poor or homeless.
In truth, all that is necessary to be homeless is for the cost of housing to rise above the market value of your skill set. That is all. Or a severe illness is all that's really required.
I don't think it's so much a moral failing, but one of privilege in the form of being raised in a stable family, having positive role models and being taught basic life skills. If your parents weren't around to teach you these things or if you were preoccupied with survival as a kid, then you are not equipped to thrive in life. Through no fault of your own. Had you been taught some of these things, then you could be self sufficient. Of course illness, changing job markets, rental costs, inflation, and so on can impact a person's situation as well, but these can be semi reasonably planned for as well, if you know how.
I'd say with those people you just need to give the money to a care giver instead of directly to the person... But it's still just giving money without making them jump through all kinds of dehumanizing hoops
Yeah that or provide housing and help for their addiction or mental issues. Money doesn't help them at all. People need shelter and food more than they need money. Money is just a means to store value and make transactions, and in their case, those transactions are food and shelter, so why not provide those first? It doesn't help to give the societal currency if you aren't equipped to exist in that society anyway.
The entire body of research on "housing first" disproves this classist bullshit. You are literally doing the exact thing OP is talking about. People HAVE done the research and found that giving people housing is the most effective way to help people. It is the most effective way to help people with drug addictions.
Most people do drugs because there is something objectively terrible about their lives. If you had to sleep on the sidewalk, wouldn't you want to get high all day? If you say no, you're delusional.
I'm confused. It sounds like you are disagreeing with me, but basically reworded exactly what I said.
I mean... Money can be traded for shelter and food.
Yeah but the point is if you don't know how to spend it responsibly, then what good is it? If you spend it on drugs or alcohol because that's more important to you than shelter, which is the case for serious addicts, then it doesn't help you. Instead it only enables your addiction and keeps you on the street.
Yeah... Then they'd need someone helping them with their money I guess. If I had a magic wand I'd make all substances legal but manufacture and sales strictly controlled by the government... When someone gets to the point where the addiction is so bad they'd choose substance over housing or food, offer them free housing and all the drugs they want for free, but the housing is a special community just for that, with like therapists and nurses galore. When they're ready to stop using move them to the recovery community... Still free housing but also start reintroducing them to alternative activities besides drugs... All of this would require a shit ton of money though... And right now that money is almost all going to the pharma companies for their alternative drugs that never actually get people off drugs
In general the concept sounds ok, but I think the reality would make it a death camp since many of those drugs are so addictive that you simply won't break free on your own, without being forced to quit.
If they want to be forced that should be an option too... But so should the option of continuing to use until it kills you... but even then we should do our best to keep them as healthy and comfortable as possible because in the long run it costs society less that way and it's easier to get out of when they decide to
I don't think you are doing drug addicts any favors by letting them continue to use. Their life is better without that addiction and a healthy society would help them as much as possible and feasible. I'm all for personal freedom, but I don't view addiction as being free.
Addiction isn't freedom... But the only way to beat it is for that person to choose to fight it themselves... Until they make that choice we're just wasting time, energy, and money trying to force them to
Yeah they have to want to or it won't work.
bUt SoMeTiMeS
Yes, sometimes, you moron. Did you have anything of value to add to the conversation or is that the extent of your contribution?
https://youtu.be/GiYO1TObNz8