Terrorist settler kills Palestinian harvesting olives on his land.
Terrorist settler: how could Hamas do this?
Where is the Palestinian right to self defence?
But then when the guy's son picks up an AK and takes revenge he is a terrorist
When you don't provide a political solution to a situation, people will resort to non-political solutions.
They did provide a political solution. The response was a wave of terrorism.
The Palestinian Authority signed up to a peace agreement, recognised Israel, renounced violence but the Israelis continued expanding settlements and their ethnic cleansing.
Which one?
death by aerial bombardment would be my guess.
If he murders the person who murdered his father he would be a murderer.
If he murders random civilians who were unrelated to the incident, then yes. He is a terrorist.
Terror is terror. There is no excuse for intentionally targeting civilians. It's murder at best, and terrorism at worst.
So according to your logic, the Israelian gunman is a terrorist, because he murdered a random civilian based on racial hatred.
If it was unprovoked (likely, but I'll hold out until more evidence comes to light), and it was a random civilian (sounds likely), and it was based on racial hatred (yeah, that tracks 100%), then yes - this is terrorism. He'll probably only get charged with murder because it was only one person, but that's a failing of legal codes rather than moral ones.
But according to your explanation what happened on 7th of October is also not an act of terrorism because it was provoked by years of ill treatment, human rights violations and targeted killings, source Wikipedia, countless of human rights watch groups, etc. (I am not trying to justify the killings that Hamas did at all. What they did was horrible!)
I am just saying that there are double standards when it comes to violence justifications. So Israel is morally right to kill 5 times more civilians and counting, destroy civilian infrastructure, people's houses, create humanitarian crises, but when Palestine is committing some violence that's terrorism.
Don't you see how cynical all this is, human life is priceless no matter religion, ethnicity, the colour of the skin or the sexual orientation of the person! And we should value this equally and not have double standards.
Alright dude keep justifying the genocidal occupation while you sit on your couch typing on your laptop. While your at it go have a fucking pumpkin spice latte, might make it smell better up there.
Dude are you watching me? I am sitting on my couch typing on my laptop. While you're out making such a difference, can you also pick up eggs and milk?
On a more serious note, calling it a genocidal occupation precludes any discussion. It's signalling that you believe that Palestinians are starving and dying and are in danger of being completely wiped out. There really isn't any evidence supporting that over the last 75 years except Hamas propaganda.
Calling out a half century occupation and an ongoing genocide does not mean that at all, there is no discussion precluded except stop the genocide and end the occupation.
But good luck to you. Keep flinging shit until something sticks? It’s already all over your face.
It’s not a good look.
People who talk about genocide usually agree with the whole river to the sea thing which is literal genocide.
For anyone else reading who is unfamiliar: "from the river to the sea, we will be free" is a slogan used by many Palestinians that refers to their desire to have a single Palestinian state with no Jews at all. It is a call to violence.
If you're just reading the propaganda and think there's a literal genocide going on, go ahead and read about the Armenian genocide. Then compare the actions, and how many have passed. Israel sometimes has incredibly oppressive policies, but they are far from a genocide and raising that accusation is particularly hurtful given the Jewish people's history of the Holocaust.
Keep going off on random unrelated talking points. If you support the Israeli governments actions and Netanyahu, you are a supporter of genocide.
The whole world agrees that Israel is committing genocide and that Netanyahu is making decisions that are just putting Israeli civilians further into harms way.
If you don’t think leveling whole neighborhoods full of civilians is genocide then you don’t get to participate in the conversation anymore. Bye bye little boy. Grow up.
I don't think leveling empty buildings is genocide.
I think killing an entire ethnic group is genocide.
Perhaps you should learn to value human life rather than possessions.
Recently Netanyahu has quoted from First Samuel 15:3 in a speech, saying, “You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. ‘Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys’”
The invocation of this biblical passage serves not only as a historical reference but also as a genocidal lens through which the Prime Minister views the current conflict.
If that settler goes to jail for murder as he should in a civilized society then sure, but if it's a lawless society and he doesn't go to jail then what you're saying is irrelevant partisan labeling.
I refuse to not call things as they are; it's called having principles, not "irrelevant partisan labeling".
If the settler doesn't go to prison, he's still a murderer.
Labels without gravitas mean nothing. You call him a murderer, I call him a free man, I'll let you guess which has more weight.
That's exactly why the IDF is functionally a terrorist organization. A terrorist organization that mandates service of citizens no less. Despicable.
Your point would hold more weight if this was the only example of such an incident. His father wasn't the first person he knew who was killed by an Israeli soldier...the same group that's kept him behind barbed wire fences his whole life.
I'm not excusing it but you're way oversimplifying it. How could you blame a kid for demonizing all Israelis with all that he's seen? It's not like he's been allowed to mingle with the good citizens of Israel even if they're the majority
I’m not excusing it but you’re way oversimplifying it. How could you blame a kid for demonizing all Israelis with all that he’s seen?
This is the most depressing part in some ways. Hamas indoctrinates the kids and teaches them to hate all Jewish people and that all are to blame. How do you deprogram them from that, especially when they see so many people dying in airstrikes?
Here's an example of it that seems credible from a decade ago.
The members of Hamas who killed and butchered and kidnapped innocent people grew up being taught to gleefully shoot their enemy and that their enemy was everyone.
I can't think of a feasible solution, and I problem solve for a living. It really upsets me that there's just no real path to peace.
You think a kids cartoon was what caused them to hate Israel, and not witnessing the IDF killing their friends and family as they grew up?
You have to be taking the piss.
Not at all. The kids cartoon was propaganda to misdirect their hate. Hating Israel for the IDF slaughtering their loved ones? That's a given. But hating Israeli civilians and Jews for that? That's the propaganda teaching them to direct their hate at everyone else, not just those responsible.
It's very basic manipulation. People who are hurting emotionally or economically are more easy to convince that all of X is to blame for their problems.
It's not oversimplified. It's a statement of principles.
The reality of our world is that murderers walk free all the time. But saying "x caused y and we should fix the root cause of this" is wildly different than saying "can you blame him?" Because the answer to that is yes! You can blame him for choosing violence and choosing terror.
What did this hypothetical boy choose violence over? What should he have done instead?
If you truly believe that violence is the only answer the Palestinians have, then you've given up any hope for peace.
Feel free to answer my question on what other choice the boy has but to fight.
Because the only other option I see in this boy is to die. Either self-inflicted, at the hands or those who liked your father, or slowly by starvation and disease.
I'll answer your question and hopefully you'll answer mine.
The hypothetical boy could choose life. He could work in agriculture, or study, or literally just live his life. Palestinians are not starving on a daily basis, and certainly not in the west bank. He can go on with his life, get married, have kids, and literally choose to move on and not take violent revenge.
Now my question for you: do you support Hamas?
I ask because It sounds like you drank the Hamas koolaid. Their charter literally state that every Palestinian must engage in violent resistance, and have no alternative.
Oh he could just choose life like the drug addicts in trainspotting! I feel so silly not realizing that living under occupation is the same as having an addiction.
He could work in agriculture...where? On the farms that are being stolen from him and his people?
He could go on with life...in the rubble of his bombed city until it's unceremoniously cut short by the occupiers who have killed so many people around him. It's hilarious that you're trying to take the moral high ground while including a that clearly derogatory part about marriage.
You must think you sound really smart right now but you're not having this conversation is good faith and it's painfully obvious to anyone with a brain. "Hurr durr you must support Hamas because you understand why someone living under occupation would rebel" is the stance of a fuckin idiot. None of your "suggestions" are grounded in the reality that Gaza is getting leveled. Get bent, dude. If either one of us is supporting terrorism, it's you.
I don't "agree" with it (I am just not making a judgment), but terrorism is frequently useful.
Terrorism is a tool used by any revolutionary group to force change to be enacted. It really just depends on if the revolutionary group is successful whether they're called terrorists after the fact.
It's also utilized by every nation to enforce order, but they just don't call it that and they control the media. Terrorism is only called that when it's the tools of the oppressor are used by the oppressed. Israel had killed 22.4x more Palestinians than Israelis had been killed by 2020. I think it only got worse since then, but this is the data I saw first. It's definitely way worse now.
Terrorism is literally the tool Israel used to force their state to exist. They used to bomb Arab homes and target British colonialists in the 40's.
If only the Israelis could be paid $100 to fuck off
In total, since 2005, only 3% of investigation files opened following ideologically motivated offenses Israelis committed against Palestinians in the West Bank led to convictions.
Those 3% of genocidal terror israelis probably forgot to condemn Hamas
if only 3% have been investigated, how do you know they were ideologically motivated? just assuming?
Led to convictions, not investigated. 97% of cases opened by police did not result in any convictions.
I thought the scripture was quite clear with that whole "Thou shalt not kill" part...
Ah, but that says not to kill people. It says nothing about killing rats! /s
Seriously, though, that's exactly why we're so capable of committing atrocities: we dehumanize each other until we consider it acceptable to kill. Portraying Jews as rats and subhuman is exactly how the Holocaust happened, and portraying Palestinians as subhuman is exactly how Israel is currently doing what they're doing.
Thou shalt not kill people. They don’t consider Palestinians people.
Actually the commandment is, "Thou Shalt Not Kill." The first and foremost commandment that God gave to his people. I'm not religious at all (actually atheistic) but, that commandment does not carry with it any exceptions. Sure people would naturally defend themselves when assaulted, who wouldn't - but that doesn't mean you can ever be redeemed afterward. Just the opposite. Even Moses was disbarred from heaven for killing an Egyptian who was whipping a slave. God means it when he hands down that commandment; it applies to everyone.
That’s not the way people interpret it. The majority of religious extremism directly contradicts scriptures. This is still the justification used
I know, I live in a state with major religious extremism. I'm well aware how they bend scriptures to suit their need to justify everything.
I don't speak Hebrew but I've been told the original language is more like "thou shalt not murder". That leaves a lot of wiggle room, but "thou shalt not kill" has problems as well—like it could be taken as mandating veganism.
In the end I don't think it matters how the hairs are split—people are gonna interpret it to mean whatever they want it to mean.
That's a good point. I think someone pointed out that in Leviticus it technically could be interpreted we aren't even allowed to step on insects or else be damned for it. Not that we should want to step on insects, but who hasn't done that at some point.
Oh - I appreciate the clarification. It shows I really am not well-educated in religious stuff. Still I wonder how such a commandment can be wiggled around, to me it doesn't leave any room for other interpretations.
The main arguments for wiggling around it are based on balancing multiple lives against one. There's a ton of commentary that are basically trolley problem examples. So self-defense is ok, intent matters, etc. Very similar to how most Western legal codes (quite possibly more, I'm just less familiar) distinguish between manslaughter, murder in the moment, planned murder, etc.
Keep in mind it is a religious text, so it obviously also carves out a bunch of stuff around killing for the purpose of enforcing laws (capital punishment), warfare, etc.
I would not be surprised if there's something in there about how it's ok to kill people who tie their shoes the wrong way.
I think most religious texts could be interpreted to support anyone's need to justify brutality toward others somehow. I would hope that human conscientiousness and empathy would prevail and keep people from ever wanting to hurt each other, but that's just not the reality we live in. It kind of scares me how people tie themselves into pretzel-knots of justification for their horrible actions. But I truly believe - bible or not - killing is always wrong no matter what the reason someone uses for it. Hey that's just me, but...I'm glad I am that way.
Hey that’s just me, but…I’m glad I am that way.
I hope you stay that way. I lost most of my faith in humanity at some point, and what little was left is gone after October 7th.
Nah it's ok god is always on their side. (Any group that does terrorist shit)
Why were the settlers there? Why were they carrying guns there?
They try to defend themselves with "they were throwing rocks at us", but that clearly indicates they were up to something untoward there in the first place.
It's a bit of the same old story.
Israeli settlers: Dangerous terrorists attacking law enforcement, must be repressed without reservation.
Rest of the world: Kids throwing pebbles at an armored vehicle because they hate those who killed or screwed over many of their acquaintances, without even a scratch or hindering their work.
They’re not out there trying to win hearts and minds, that’s for sure.
Just a reminder that Palestinians attack wasn't just out of the blue, Israel has been slowly killing and driving them out from their land for as long as they've been there.
The international community consider Israeli settlements to be illegal under international law, though Israel disputes this.
surprised_pikachu.jpg
Massacring 1400 innocents and kidnapping 200 more never has justification.
There's a difference between justifications and reasons. I'm exhausted seeing people use the fact that atrocities are unjustified to hand wave away the reasons and circumstances that led to those atrocities.
The massacring of innocents isn't justified, but the reason it happened isn't that people magically became evil. The reason is that enduring apartheid oppression pushes people to extremism.
This right here
So many people see you saying "these are the reasons X happened" as you supporting X happening.
Just because you can see the reasons why something happened doesn't mean you support whatever happened.
Which is exactly what the UN rep said and then was banned from Israel. They don't want to ruining the narrative of being prosecuted for "no reason". The UN has said multiple crimes that Israel have done things to fan the flames here.
But don't you know that Israel has the most moral army in the world. They can't be doing anything wrong, right? /a (in case it isn't immediately obvious)
It's a skill issue. It's takes intelligence to conceptualize an issue or idea without accepting it. Seems many people talking about Israel/Palestine (in terms of everyday people) just aren't bright enough to break it down for themselves.
The whole thing is a legit clusterfuck. Israel has been commiting war crimes against Palestinians for as long as I've been alive, and Palestine's de facto government is a legit terrorist organization who has done some unforgivable things. In the middle you have everyday people suffering for no reason beyond being born in the "wrong" place, and being further radicalized by unconscionable IDF actions. There's no good guy on either side (in terms of those capable of taking action on a collective scale), and that breaks the brains of some. People ignorantly want a cut and dry solution, and a bad side to rail against, much more than they want to actually understand the issue and it's causes.
I tried to trace this conflict back through history to find a root cause, and I made it to the Russian revolution era without finding one.
The Balfour Declaration was what started the specific conflict in the region, because the British wanted to grow their sphere of influence through a growing population of Jews there. The Zionists were response for terror attacks in the region for decades after the Declaration, and their motivation was the formation of a Jewish state.
Tracing it back, that motivation was actually very pure at first. A Jewish intellectual in Europe concluded that Jewish people would not be respected or able to live in peace unless they had a country of their own. This was because of the persecution and pogroms European Jews faced. The belief was corrupted into radical terror over time.
And it's ironic since the Palestinians are in a similar situation because of Israelis. Europeans to Jewish people, Israelis to Palestinians. They just want safety and security. They all had/have the pure desire to live peaceful, safe lives with their families. And Jews and Palestinians all deserve to have that.
Terror isn't justified, but its a symptom of larger problems. In this case systematic apartheid and oppression of a entire ethnic group
what's your plan then to stop the extermination of your country?
Taking out military targets and infrastructure. Not killing innocent people .
There was a video yesterday of terror israelis posing threatening and blocking the road to the land of Palestinian olive trees while Palestinians tried to harvest
I guess one of those terror israelis decided it was time to do some more western backed war crimes.
Just read this article and get more infuriated:
*Samaria Regional Council head Yossi Dagan issued a rare video statement on Shabbat describing the incident: “This incident is a simple incident,” he claimed, saying that the settler family involved was “upstanding,” and a father and “son, a combat soldier on weekend leave” were “attacked with rocks by dozens of wild Hamas supporters.”
The son, claimed Dagan, “fired in the air to protect the life of his father and younger brothers… the details are clear and straightforward. A family was attacked and I completely back the on-leave soldier who protected his family.”
*
When I see pictures of small boys in the middle east (like 8 and 10 years old) gleefully carrying weapons, it makes me weep for the future of this world. There's no chance a kid who feels weapons are his only chance of retribution is going to grow up not to want to kill other people.
War is indeed a travesty, no matter who is fueling it. I hope this mindless conflict gets tamped down soon, and the world can try to move on from it.
Yes, I was thinking the same that war won't happen again in Europe that we as humanity have evolved sufficiently to realise that violence is never the answer, but reality has proved me wrong.
I really liked what Jordan's deputy prime Minister has said:
“Violence will only make things worse,“ he added. “The amount of hatred that will come out of this amount of misery will not lead to peace.”
It's happening in Europe as we speak.
There was war in Europe in the 90s as well.
There was almost some violence recently in Kosovo. Basically the EU told Serbia to knock it off. There's a real war going on.
I know, that's why I said it.
War never leads to peace, only to continual retaliation. The old saying "to have peace you must prepare for war" speaks of an ill mentality that believes arming people with weapons will somehow cause peace to break out. The opposite is true. Nobody amasses weapons with the intent to simply use them as decorative household items. To have peace, you must prepare for peace. Which means you don't worship death, you don't nurture hatred, you don't hoard weapons, and you don't harbor resentments without seeking mental help for it.
Off duty means he will likely end up in front of a military court and they will ask three things: if he followed military procedure for opening live fire, if he felt there was a non-violent way to resolve the incident, and why he was there in the first place. He'll get reprimanded, potentially sentenced for murder, and possibly discharged. More likely is he'll deny guilt, make some claims and bring family as witnesses. In the end, he might even get away with less than a year in military prison.
The reality is that law enforcement forces are just closing their eyes when there is a crime committed against Palestinians and I can imagine that now the bias would be even higher, so most likely he will get away with this murder.
discharged? during an active conflict? just send his ass to the front
Here is your MTAR Yosef!
The west needs to step in again, ctrl-z the postww2 treaties, and give the land back to palestinians. Israel has squandered its chance and this heaping pile of shit all stems from dickheads trying to make the Bible true.
Unfortunately, none of the west's support is really because we think it's good to help Jewish people. At the end of WWII, virtually no middle eastern states were similar to our ideology, and most of the natural resources to power our war machines were located there. Additionally, it's at the boundary of three other geopolitical centers of commands.
Israel is America's ability to project power, that's why we give them so much money
If there is to be any hope of peace, such cases need to be prosecuted just as strictly as what Hamas did.
Probably going to get a slap on the wrist
decorated in secret.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
This brings the number of Palestinians reported killed by settlers to seven since Hamas’s bloody incursion into Israel three weeks ago.
Tayseer Mahmoud said his nephew, Bilal Saleh, was working in the grove in the village of Sawiya with his wife and their four children on Saturday when a group of settlers attacked them.
Settler leader Yossi Dagan said in a video posted on the social media p(platform Facebook Saturday that the shooter was accompanied by family members and fired in self-defense after they were “attacked with rocks by dozens of rioting Hamas supporters.”
The deadly shooting took place amid a spike in settler violence since Hamas militants infiltrated Israel on Oct. 7, killing more than 1,400 Israelis and taking over 230 others hostage.
In addition to the killings, Palestinians in the West Bank have reported attacks on people and property, as well as denial of access to their land.
Since the outbreak of the war alone, more than 100 Palestinians, including civilians, have been killed, most during military arrest raids and violent protests in the West Bank.
The original article contains 366 words, the summary contains 178 words. Saved 51%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
Can we all agree the word "settler" can fucking do one here? You don't "settle" already occupied land. You invade it.
he had a right to self defense in the land he occupied
They did that for the Last 70 years and Western powers, champions of humans rights didn't flinch. but they will sure that a dead dog in their backyard becomes concern of every other nation.
There is no HAMAS in the West Bank, what new lie is the Israeli State of Apartheid peddling now?
Terrorist settler kills Palestinian harvesting olives on his land. Terrorist settler: how could Hamas do this?
Where is the Palestinian right to self defence?
But then when the guy's son picks up an AK and takes revenge he is a terrorist
When you don't provide a political solution to a situation, people will resort to non-political solutions.
They did provide a political solution. The response was a wave of terrorism.
The Palestinian Authority signed up to a peace agreement, recognised Israel, renounced violence but the Israelis continued expanding settlements and their ethnic cleansing.
Which one?
death by aerial bombardment would be my guess.
If he murders the person who murdered his father he would be a murderer.
If he murders random civilians who were unrelated to the incident, then yes. He is a terrorist.
Terror is terror. There is no excuse for intentionally targeting civilians. It's murder at best, and terrorism at worst.
So according to your logic, the Israelian gunman is a terrorist, because he murdered a random civilian based on racial hatred.
If it was unprovoked (likely, but I'll hold out until more evidence comes to light), and it was a random civilian (sounds likely), and it was based on racial hatred (yeah, that tracks 100%), then yes - this is terrorism. He'll probably only get charged with murder because it was only one person, but that's a failing of legal codes rather than moral ones.
But according to your explanation what happened on 7th of October is also not an act of terrorism because it was provoked by years of ill treatment, human rights violations and targeted killings, source Wikipedia, countless of human rights watch groups, etc. (I am not trying to justify the killings that Hamas did at all. What they did was horrible!)
I am just saying that there are double standards when it comes to violence justifications. So Israel is morally right to kill 5 times more civilians and counting, destroy civilian infrastructure, people's houses, create humanitarian crises, but when Palestine is committing some violence that's terrorism.
Don't you see how cynical all this is, human life is priceless no matter religion, ethnicity, the colour of the skin or the sexual orientation of the person! And we should value this equally and not have double standards.
I will also leave this here: https://www.yesh-din.org/en/category/occupation-policies/
Alright dude keep justifying the genocidal occupation while you sit on your couch typing on your laptop. While your at it go have a fucking pumpkin spice latte, might make it smell better up there.
Dude are you watching me? I am sitting on my couch typing on my laptop. While you're out making such a difference, can you also pick up eggs and milk?
On a more serious note, calling it a genocidal occupation precludes any discussion. It's signalling that you believe that Palestinians are starving and dying and are in danger of being completely wiped out. There really isn't any evidence supporting that over the last 75 years except Hamas propaganda.
Calling out a half century occupation and an ongoing genocide does not mean that at all, there is no discussion precluded except stop the genocide and end the occupation.
But good luck to you. Keep flinging shit until something sticks? It’s already all over your face.
It’s not a good look.
People who talk about genocide usually agree with the whole river to the sea thing which is literal genocide.
For anyone else reading who is unfamiliar: "from the river to the sea, we will be free" is a slogan used by many Palestinians that refers to their desire to have a single Palestinian state with no Jews at all. It is a call to violence.
If you're just reading the propaganda and think there's a literal genocide going on, go ahead and read about the Armenian genocide. Then compare the actions, and how many have passed. Israel sometimes has incredibly oppressive policies, but they are far from a genocide and raising that accusation is particularly hurtful given the Jewish people's history of the Holocaust.
Keep going off on random unrelated talking points. If you support the Israeli governments actions and Netanyahu, you are a supporter of genocide.
The whole world agrees that Israel is committing genocide and that Netanyahu is making decisions that are just putting Israeli civilians further into harms way.
If you don’t think leveling whole neighborhoods full of civilians is genocide then you don’t get to participate in the conversation anymore. Bye bye little boy. Grow up.
I don't think leveling empty buildings is genocide.
I think killing an entire ethnic group is genocide.
Perhaps you should learn to value human life rather than possessions.
Recently Netanyahu has quoted from First Samuel 15:3 in a speech, saying, “You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. ‘Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys’”
The invocation of this biblical passage serves not only as a historical reference but also as a genocidal lens through which the Prime Minister views the current conflict.
Put simply, Bibi is calling for genocide.
What's the proper and just provocation for legal murder?
if it was provoked then it might only be murder, not terrorism.
If that settler goes to jail for murder as he should in a civilized society then sure, but if it's a lawless society and he doesn't go to jail then what you're saying is irrelevant partisan labeling.
I refuse to not call things as they are; it's called having principles, not "irrelevant partisan labeling".
If the settler doesn't go to prison, he's still a murderer.
Labels without gravitas mean nothing. You call him a murderer, I call him a free man, I'll let you guess which has more weight.
That's exactly why the IDF is functionally a terrorist organization. A terrorist organization that mandates service of citizens no less. Despicable.
Your point would hold more weight if this was the only example of such an incident. His father wasn't the first person he knew who was killed by an Israeli soldier...the same group that's kept him behind barbed wire fences his whole life.
I'm not excusing it but you're way oversimplifying it. How could you blame a kid for demonizing all Israelis with all that he's seen? It's not like he's been allowed to mingle with the good citizens of Israel even if they're the majority
This is the most depressing part in some ways. Hamas indoctrinates the kids and teaches them to hate all Jewish people and that all are to blame. How do you deprogram them from that, especially when they see so many people dying in airstrikes?
Here's an example of it that seems credible from a decade ago.
https://www.memri.org/tv/indoctrination-children-animated-film-hamas-tv
The members of Hamas who killed and butchered and kidnapped innocent people grew up being taught to gleefully shoot their enemy and that their enemy was everyone.
I can't think of a feasible solution, and I problem solve for a living. It really upsets me that there's just no real path to peace.
You think a kids cartoon was what caused them to hate Israel, and not witnessing the IDF killing their friends and family as they grew up?
You have to be taking the piss.
Not at all. The kids cartoon was propaganda to misdirect their hate. Hating Israel for the IDF slaughtering their loved ones? That's a given. But hating Israeli civilians and Jews for that? That's the propaganda teaching them to direct their hate at everyone else, not just those responsible.
It's very basic manipulation. People who are hurting emotionally or economically are more easy to convince that all of X is to blame for their problems.
It's not oversimplified. It's a statement of principles.
The reality of our world is that murderers walk free all the time. But saying "x caused y and we should fix the root cause of this" is wildly different than saying "can you blame him?" Because the answer to that is yes! You can blame him for choosing violence and choosing terror.
What did this hypothetical boy choose violence over? What should he have done instead?
If you truly believe that violence is the only answer the Palestinians have, then you've given up any hope for peace.
Feel free to answer my question on what other choice the boy has but to fight.
Because the only other option I see in this boy is to die. Either self-inflicted, at the hands or those who liked your father, or slowly by starvation and disease.
I'll answer your question and hopefully you'll answer mine.
The hypothetical boy could choose life. He could work in agriculture, or study, or literally just live his life. Palestinians are not starving on a daily basis, and certainly not in the west bank. He can go on with his life, get married, have kids, and literally choose to move on and not take violent revenge.
Now my question for you: do you support Hamas?
I ask because It sounds like you drank the Hamas koolaid. Their charter literally state that every Palestinian must engage in violent resistance, and have no alternative.
Oh he could just choose life like the drug addicts in trainspotting! I feel so silly not realizing that living under occupation is the same as having an addiction.
He could work in agriculture...where? On the farms that are being stolen from him and his people?
He could go on with life...in the rubble of his bombed city until it's unceremoniously cut short by the occupiers who have killed so many people around him. It's hilarious that you're trying to take the moral high ground while including a that clearly derogatory part about marriage.
You must think you sound really smart right now but you're not having this conversation is good faith and it's painfully obvious to anyone with a brain. "Hurr durr you must support Hamas because you understand why someone living under occupation would rebel" is the stance of a fuckin idiot. None of your "suggestions" are grounded in the reality that Gaza is getting leveled. Get bent, dude. If either one of us is supporting terrorism, it's you.
Why doesn't the boy just take up farming, my dude?
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
choose life
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
The "him" is this the Israeli or the Palestinian? Or both?
I don't "agree" with it (I am just not making a judgment), but terrorism is frequently useful.
Terrorism is a tool used by any revolutionary group to force change to be enacted. It really just depends on if the revolutionary group is successful whether they're called terrorists after the fact.
It's also utilized by every nation to enforce order, but they just don't call it that and they control the media. Terrorism is only called that when it's the tools of the oppressor are used by the oppressed. Israel had killed 22.4x more Palestinians than Israelis had been killed by 2020. I think it only got worse since then, but this is the data I saw first. It's definitely way worse now.
Terrorism is literally the tool Israel used to force their state to exist. They used to bomb Arab homes and target British colonialists in the 40's.
But did that farm worker condemn Hamas?
Trailer Park Boys: Homeland edition.
If only the Israelis could be paid $100 to fuck off
Source: https://www.yesh-din.org/en/data-sheet-december-2022-law-enforcement-on-israeli-civilians-in-the-west-bank-settler-violence-2005-2022/
Let that sink in!
Those 3% of genocidal terror israelis probably forgot to condemn Hamas
if only 3% have been investigated, how do you know they were ideologically motivated? just assuming?
Led to convictions, not investigated. 97% of cases opened by police did not result in any convictions.
I thought the scripture was quite clear with that whole "Thou shalt not kill" part...
Ah, but that says not to kill people. It says nothing about killing rats! /s
Seriously, though, that's exactly why we're so capable of committing atrocities: we dehumanize each other until we consider it acceptable to kill. Portraying Jews as rats and subhuman is exactly how the Holocaust happened, and portraying Palestinians as subhuman is exactly how Israel is currently doing what they're doing.
Thou shalt not kill people. They don’t consider Palestinians people.
Actually the commandment is, "Thou Shalt Not Kill." The first and foremost commandment that God gave to his people. I'm not religious at all (actually atheistic) but, that commandment does not carry with it any exceptions. Sure people would naturally defend themselves when assaulted, who wouldn't - but that doesn't mean you can ever be redeemed afterward. Just the opposite. Even Moses was disbarred from heaven for killing an Egyptian who was whipping a slave. God means it when he hands down that commandment; it applies to everyone.
That’s not the way people interpret it. The majority of religious extremism directly contradicts scriptures. This is still the justification used
I know, I live in a state with major religious extremism. I'm well aware how they bend scriptures to suit their need to justify everything.
I don't speak Hebrew but I've been told the original language is more like "thou shalt not murder". That leaves a lot of wiggle room, but "thou shalt not kill" has problems as well—like it could be taken as mandating veganism.
In the end I don't think it matters how the hairs are split—people are gonna interpret it to mean whatever they want it to mean.
That's a good point. I think someone pointed out that in Leviticus it technically could be interpreted we aren't even allowed to step on insects or else be damned for it. Not that we should want to step on insects, but who hasn't done that at some point.
The Hebrew is לֹ֥֖א תִּֿרְצָֽ֖ח which in modern Hebrew translates as "Don't murder". It's also the 6th, not the 1st.
Oh - I appreciate the clarification. It shows I really am not well-educated in religious stuff. Still I wonder how such a commandment can be wiggled around, to me it doesn't leave any room for other interpretations.
The main arguments for wiggling around it are based on balancing multiple lives against one. There's a ton of commentary that are basically trolley problem examples. So self-defense is ok, intent matters, etc. Very similar to how most Western legal codes (quite possibly more, I'm just less familiar) distinguish between manslaughter, murder in the moment, planned murder, etc.
Keep in mind it is a religious text, so it obviously also carves out a bunch of stuff around killing for the purpose of enforcing laws (capital punishment), warfare, etc.
I would not be surprised if there's something in there about how it's ok to kill people who tie their shoes the wrong way.
I think most religious texts could be interpreted to support anyone's need to justify brutality toward others somehow. I would hope that human conscientiousness and empathy would prevail and keep people from ever wanting to hurt each other, but that's just not the reality we live in. It kind of scares me how people tie themselves into pretzel-knots of justification for their horrible actions. But I truly believe - bible or not - killing is always wrong no matter what the reason someone uses for it. Hey that's just me, but...I'm glad I am that way.
I hope you stay that way. I lost most of my faith in humanity at some point, and what little was left is gone after October 7th.
Nah it's ok god is always on their side. (Any group that does terrorist shit)
Jewish scripture always left room for murder.
This book, popular among the Israeli religious right, shows that their thinking (that segment) is much like Da'esh but for Jews: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torat_Hamelekh
Even Al Qaeda thought that killings at least needed a reason.
We all know terrorist can't read.
Why were the settlers there? Why were they carrying guns there?
They try to defend themselves with "they were throwing rocks at us", but that clearly indicates they were up to something untoward there in the first place.
It's a bit of the same old story.
Israeli settlers: Dangerous terrorists attacking law enforcement, must be repressed without reservation.
Rest of the world: Kids throwing pebbles at an armored vehicle because they hate those who killed or screwed over many of their acquaintances, without even a scratch or hindering their work.
They’re not out there trying to win hearts and minds, that’s for sure.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli\_settlement
Just a reminder that Palestinians attack wasn't just out of the blue, Israel has been slowly killing and driving them out from their land for as long as they've been there.
surprised_pikachu.jpg
Massacring 1400 innocents and kidnapping 200 more never has justification.
There's a difference between justifications and reasons. I'm exhausted seeing people use the fact that atrocities are unjustified to hand wave away the reasons and circumstances that led to those atrocities.
The massacring of innocents isn't justified, but the reason it happened isn't that people magically became evil. The reason is that enduring apartheid oppression pushes people to extremism.
This right here
So many people see you saying "these are the reasons X happened" as you supporting X happening.
Just because you can see the reasons why something happened doesn't mean you support whatever happened.
Which is exactly what the UN rep said and then was banned from Israel. They don't want to ruining the narrative of being prosecuted for "no reason". The UN has said multiple crimes that Israel have done things to fan the flames here.
But don't you know that Israel has the most moral army in the world. They can't be doing anything wrong, right? /a (in case it isn't immediately obvious)
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It's a skill issue. It's takes intelligence to conceptualize an issue or idea without accepting it. Seems many people talking about Israel/Palestine (in terms of everyday people) just aren't bright enough to break it down for themselves.
The whole thing is a legit clusterfuck. Israel has been commiting war crimes against Palestinians for as long as I've been alive, and Palestine's de facto government is a legit terrorist organization who has done some unforgivable things. In the middle you have everyday people suffering for no reason beyond being born in the "wrong" place, and being further radicalized by unconscionable IDF actions. There's no good guy on either side (in terms of those capable of taking action on a collective scale), and that breaks the brains of some. People ignorantly want a cut and dry solution, and a bad side to rail against, much more than they want to actually understand the issue and it's causes.
I tried to trace this conflict back through history to find a root cause, and I made it to the Russian revolution era without finding one.
The Balfour Declaration was what started the specific conflict in the region, because the British wanted to grow their sphere of influence through a growing population of Jews there. The Zionists were response for terror attacks in the region for decades after the Declaration, and their motivation was the formation of a Jewish state.
Tracing it back, that motivation was actually very pure at first. A Jewish intellectual in Europe concluded that Jewish people would not be respected or able to live in peace unless they had a country of their own. This was because of the persecution and pogroms European Jews faced. The belief was corrupted into radical terror over time.
And it's ironic since the Palestinians are in a similar situation because of Israelis. Europeans to Jewish people, Israelis to Palestinians. They just want safety and security. They all had/have the pure desire to live peaceful, safe lives with their families. And Jews and Palestinians all deserve to have that.
Terror isn't justified, but its a symptom of larger problems. In this case systematic apartheid and oppression of a entire ethnic group
what's your plan then to stop the extermination of your country?
Taking out military targets and infrastructure. Not killing innocent people .
There was a video yesterday of terror israelis posing threatening and blocking the road to the land of Palestinian olive trees while Palestinians tried to harvest
https://youtu.be/UuMUuqqa7NM?si=m0kSUnEn7lxV5qWy
I guess one of those terror israelis decided it was time to do some more western backed war crimes.
Just read this article and get more infuriated:
*Samaria Regional Council head Yossi Dagan issued a rare video statement on Shabbat describing the incident: “This incident is a simple incident,” he claimed, saying that the settler family involved was “upstanding,” and a father and “son, a combat soldier on weekend leave” were “attacked with rocks by dozens of wild Hamas supporters.”
The son, claimed Dagan, “fired in the air to protect the life of his father and younger brothers… the details are clear and straightforward. A family was attacked and I completely back the on-leave soldier who protected his family.” *
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When I see pictures of small boys in the middle east (like 8 and 10 years old) gleefully carrying weapons, it makes me weep for the future of this world. There's no chance a kid who feels weapons are his only chance of retribution is going to grow up not to want to kill other people.
War is indeed a travesty, no matter who is fueling it. I hope this mindless conflict gets tamped down soon, and the world can try to move on from it.
Yes, I was thinking the same that war won't happen again in Europe that we as humanity have evolved sufficiently to realise that violence is never the answer, but reality has proved me wrong.
I really liked what Jordan's deputy prime Minister has said:
It's happening in Europe as we speak.
There was war in Europe in the 90s as well.
There was almost some violence recently in Kosovo. Basically the EU told Serbia to knock it off. There's a real war going on.
I know, that's why I said it.
War never leads to peace, only to continual retaliation. The old saying "to have peace you must prepare for war" speaks of an ill mentality that believes arming people with weapons will somehow cause peace to break out. The opposite is true. Nobody amasses weapons with the intent to simply use them as decorative household items. To have peace, you must prepare for peace. Which means you don't worship death, you don't nurture hatred, you don't hoard weapons, and you don't harbor resentments without seeking mental help for it.
Alternative articles:
My personal speculation:
Off duty means he will likely end up in front of a military court and they will ask three things: if he followed military procedure for opening live fire, if he felt there was a non-violent way to resolve the incident, and why he was there in the first place. He'll get reprimanded, potentially sentenced for murder, and possibly discharged. More likely is he'll deny guilt, make some claims and bring family as witnesses. In the end, he might even get away with less than a year in military prison.
Even this is highly unlikely: https://www.yesh-din.org/en/data-sheet-december-2022-law-enforcement-on-israeli-civilians-in-the-west-bank-settler-violence-2005-2022/
The reality is that law enforcement forces are just closing their eyes when there is a crime committed against Palestinians and I can imagine that now the bias would be even higher, so most likely he will get away with this murder.
discharged? during an active conflict? just send his ass to the front
Here is your MTAR Yosef!
The west needs to step in again, ctrl-z the postww2 treaties, and give the land back to palestinians. Israel has squandered its chance and this heaping pile of shit all stems from dickheads trying to make the Bible true.
Unfortunately, none of the west's support is really because we think it's good to help Jewish people. At the end of WWII, virtually no middle eastern states were similar to our ideology, and most of the natural resources to power our war machines were located there. Additionally, it's at the boundary of three other geopolitical centers of commands.
Israel is America's ability to project power, that's why we give them so much money
Followup on this: the settler has been arrested by military police
If there is to be any hope of peace, such cases need to be prosecuted just as strictly as what Hamas did.
Probably going to get a slap on the wrist
decorated in secret.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
This brings the number of Palestinians reported killed by settlers to seven since Hamas’s bloody incursion into Israel three weeks ago.
Tayseer Mahmoud said his nephew, Bilal Saleh, was working in the grove in the village of Sawiya with his wife and their four children on Saturday when a group of settlers attacked them.
Settler leader Yossi Dagan said in a video posted on the social media p(platform Facebook Saturday that the shooter was accompanied by family members and fired in self-defense after they were “attacked with rocks by dozens of rioting Hamas supporters.”
The deadly shooting took place amid a spike in settler violence since Hamas militants infiltrated Israel on Oct. 7, killing more than 1,400 Israelis and taking over 230 others hostage.
In addition to the killings, Palestinians in the West Bank have reported attacks on people and property, as well as denial of access to their land.
Since the outbreak of the war alone, more than 100 Palestinians, including civilians, have been killed, most during military arrest raids and violent protests in the West Bank.
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Can we all agree the word "settler" can fucking do one here? You don't "settle" already occupied land. You invade it.
he had a right to self defense in the land he occupied
They did that for the Last 70 years and Western powers, champions of humans rights didn't flinch. but they will sure that a dead dog in their backyard becomes concern of every other nation.
There is no HAMAS in the West Bank, what new lie is the Israeli State of Apartheid peddling now?