Israel’s military claims it has cut Gaza in half, surrounded Gaza City
Israel’s military has claimed it has encircled Gaza City and divided the besieged coastal strip into two, as Gaza came under its third total communications outage since the start of the war.
“Today, there is north Gaza and south Gaza,” Israeli army spokesman Daniel Hagari told reporters on Sunday, calling it a “significant stage” in Israel’s war against Hamas.
Israeli media reported that troops are expected to enter Gaza City within 48 hours. Strong explosions were seen in northern Gaza after nightfall.
But the “collapse in connectivity” across Gaza reported by internet access advocacy group NetBlocks.org and confirmed by the Palestinian telecom company Paltel made it even more complicated to convey details of the new stage of the military offensive.
It seems to me that they're planning on squeezing the people from the north into the south, then closing off the north from any return. This is consistent with a plan of annexing and depopulating Gaza.
If so, this would be ethnic cleansing. This strategy appears to be genocide.
One issue the IDF has been working with for a while is the sheer amount of tunneling by Hamas. There is dense housing right on top of the tunnels. Destroying the tunnels can lead to the above buildings collapsing, as well as the damage caused by any explosives.
Will they annex and depopulate Gaza? I hope not. That's just going to create another generation of fighters itching for revenge. Grievances outlast Hamas, and they will likely find a form. That said, maybe a single state solution will be the best form of government, as long as Palestinians, Jewish Israelis, and other groups are guaranteed equal rights. The half-ass "two state" attempt right now isn't working.
I guarantee, if they actually offered that nobody would complain. But they won't, to "preserve Israel's Jewish character". See: Their rejection of Palestinian right of return.
Hell, if they were willing to do that Israel wouldn't exist and we'd just have had a unified Palestine in 1948.
They want to keep Gaza and the West Bank under military rule until they can fully depopulate them and create Lebensraum.
you're ignoring the fact that the Palestinian Arabs do not want a two state solution, and the majority of them want to genocide the Jews.
so where do you get this from exactly? because the PA has been working toward a two-state solution, while the Israeli government has been strengthening Hamas to undermine the PA's attempt at getting a two-state solution passed, and yes, Netanyahu has said this openly, for years
The Palestinian's under the PLO had a charter to completely reject any two state solution until 1994, and two state negotiations barely lasted a couple years before violence broke out again.
So no, the Palestinian Arabs do not, and have never wanted a two state solution.
yet the PLO was dissolved and replaces by the PA in accordance with the Camp David agreements, of course Israel conveniently forgot they existed, so for about 10 years the Palestinians tried to do the whole peaceful negotiation bit, and got jack shit, until a terror group backed by Bibi won the civil war in Gaza, putting an end to the negotiations entirely.
so I ask if the Palestinians when't interested in a two-state solution, where is the PLO?
The PA also did not want a two state solution, they wanted a one state solution that they controlled.
what exactly are you talking about? are you just repeating stuff you heard that matches your notion of "all Muslims are evil and want to kill jews"?
None of their negotiations gave Jews a right to the land. And Palestinians tried a total of 2 years of peaceful negotiations, not 10.
And no, not all Muslims are bad, but the leadership in Palestine and Israel have never wanted the other religion to exercise any control in the region, and pretending Palestinians are completely innocent is idiotic.
ok, so first off, what exactly are you basing your "worked towards a two-state solution" on? because it definitely has nothing to do with any of the treaties or actions to radicalize said treaties by the Palestinian people.
And through your ignorance, purposeful or not, you straight up lie about the Palestinian government's attempts at a two-state solution, fucking Netanyahu literally supported Hamas to undermine the two state efforts of the PA, what you claim just doesn't match with any facts.
The PA only made efforts at peace for about 2 years, I ma basing it on that. 2 years out of the 75 that Israel has existed has had Palestine make legitimate attempts at a 2 state solution, not just a delaying tactic until they start attacking again.
And Netanyahu is a shit-sack as well.
So I won't actually respond to this moron, but if anybody else wants to know why what they're saying is completely wrong reply to me.
Because you're a moron, I see.
Palestinians want to control the land, and most want to expel the Jews. That has been the case since the founding of Israel. Sorry you're blind to that.
The onion did a bit about ten years ago on the Palestine-Israel conflict, reporting:
“Israeli and Palestine leaders have shown they see eye to eye in nearly every facet of the proposed solution, including such provisions as: seizing all territory, watching the opposition burn in righteous fire, and building a unified nation on the corpses of their enemy. Yet, they still haven’t come any closer to putting a stop to the conflict”
Kind of sums it up.
Uh... The PLO had a lot of national support for a hot minute there, until Netenyahu just up and shut down the Oslo accords. That's what made terror as popular in Palestine as it is now; there's simply no other means of resistance left to them.
You mean the PLO who's second charter was:
"Palestine, with the boundaries it had during the British mandate, is an indivisible territorial unit"
They weren't exactly fans of a two state solution either.
Uh... They then recognized Israel as part of the Oslo accords so... Yeah. There goes your excuse.
Well yeah they were talking about one-state secular democracy, not a two state solution
For most of the time Israel has existed the Palestinian stance has been a one state under Palestine without Jews. They didn't want a secular democracy, they wanted to get rid of the Jews.
The fact you think Palestine didn't have Jews is funny and really sad. Go read a book.
Of course it had Jews, long before it had Muslims. Doesn't change that the majority of Palestinian Arabs want to get rid of the Jews.
And we're talking about the area since the formation of Israel.
Bruh Jews and Muslims have lived together for 1400 years what are you even on about?
And since 1948 the Arab Muslims of the region have had a mandate to expel the Jews from Israel. What happened in the previous thousand years does not matter.
exactly. Israel is currently creating hamas 2.0 - you think all of those dead children won’t be avenged by their parents? or the dead parents won’t be avenged by their children?? their approach is and has always been to completely destroy palestinians, this was their opportunity.
It's because it's half-assed, by Netanyahu. He won't allow Palestine state to be formed, as well as will not return the West Bank and evict the illegal settlement, but instead either allow the settler to stay or carve that land for himself. He also want Palestine to demilitarised. A country without military is a sitting duck, so it's understandable no one wanted that.
No, he doesn't want Palestine. More moderate/leftist Israelis want a demilitarized Palestine. The Israeli far right just wants them off the map for their lebensraum.
He doesn't want the state Palestine to exists and the people who identified as Palestinian. If he doesn't want Palestine(the land) he will retreat from West Bank. Instead, he continue to occupy it and illegally build more settler there.
He doesn't want a Palestine, he wants it to be greater Israel or whatever.
I agree with this 100%. I think it needs to get said more, and more: Palestinians deserve full civil rights including the freedom of movement throughout a single state covering all of historic Palestine.
considering that Israel hasn't been interested in the two-state solution and has been working hard to undermine it, of course it didn't work
No, they're just going to kill everyone in the north then turn around and attack the south, pressuring Egypt into opening its borders and displacing the rest of the population into the Sinai Peninsula. The blackout is back, so they can kill indiscriminately now.
Then use Gaza as a neutral zone, something like North and South Korea have to cut off all ties.
Then it's just a matter of time to do the same to the West Bank.
They're already lobbying the EU and US to put pressure on Egypt to give up the Sinai peninsula (like it's so normal to give up an entire fucking peninsula). That's why Sisi said Europe should take in Gazans themselves if they care so much about human rights.
You know about Netanyahu's plans we heard about a few days ago and everybody shrugged it off as a 'theory/study? This is exactly what's happening.
This also explains why they don't care about civilian casualties. There will be no Gaza anymore, and the more Palestinians they kill right now, the less future terrorists for them (their opinion).
they just want an excuse to retake the peninsula
Israel doesn't give a shit about Gaza. Gaza is a distraction. The real deal is the West Bank were the settlers/militia are being armed by Israel. There are already videos of Ben Gvir giving assault weapons to the settlers and riling them up. They are the ones who will commit the genocide in Israel's behalf. Shit is already going down. The militia is depopulating villages, commuting murder and arson, all while the IDF just stands and watches. But the media only shows Gaza. Even Biden already realized what happened and is shitting his britches realizing he supported what is about to happen. This are the first stages of a genocide.
they want both Gaza AND Palestine, that's why Netanyahu was supporting Hamas, to use them against the PA in the west bank
I agree with you. I'm not sure where we're in disagreement.
I don't know the precise planning. I'm guessing Israel would prefer to focus on depopulating Gaza first, and let the Settlers terrorize the West Bank until they're ready to reallocate troops. Then I think that once they've got secure control of Gaza, they'll wait for an opportunistic terror attack in the West Bank as pretense to redirect the troops. But I think they want to fully conquer Gaza first to avoid dividing their forces.
Like I said, though, I think we all agree on the overall plan, we just don't know the exact battle plan. But Genocide is the intent.
I don't think we'll see the army blooding their hands in the West Bank. We're going to see major atrocities there (executions, mass graves, etc) but it will be by the armed militia (aka settlers). The army will just observe to keep plausible deniability.
Please, I'm eating...
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/30/world/middleeast/west-bank-settlers-palestinians-violence.html
This was my thought as well. No one will ever be allowed back in that city. It will either be a military base or a wasteland for decades.
It does make sense in terms of working in a box for military awareness of enemy combatants. No expert, but that is something we've seen before.
The more accurate description is "Israel's war against Palestine". And, given the power difference and stated goals: "Israel's ongoing genocide of Palestine".
And if you think that it sounds a bit too disturbing, just try to imagine a pile of 4000 children. It might ruin your day.
I'm glad Lemmy doesn't censor the amount of upvotes and downvotes.
It's good to see how many people here support/oppose certain ideas.
Kind of a breath of fresh air after being on that other hellhole for so long.
Except on the instances that turn off downvotes so someone can post absolutely heinous shit and get no pushback.
The irony of saying this in a echo chamber
Don't use words you don't understand
Oh look more irony lol
🤡
Sorry, can't use the G word apparently because there are almost 1 million Palestinians and Israel hasn't tried to kill all of them. According to the big brains out there you can't call out an attempt at genocide unless it's full force, plain as day to see, and maximum death count.
...Sigh.
Genocide only occurs in Europe during WWII. If it's not WWII Europe, it's not genocide /s
It's only sparkling mass killings
And the world will just watch as this campaign of ethnic cleansing continues. I'm sickened
Don’t want wiped off the map? Don’t be a nation ran by terrorists.
What a heartless genocidal ideology you have
No it’s just common sense, I’m not on either side.
If you don’t want to be the victim of genocide it’s probably a good idea to not try and genocide your neighbor. Reap what you sow
https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide
indeed... you reap what you sow
said like every racial supremacist to have ever existed, if we give the blacks freedom, they will kill the white man!
That is one of the most braindead comparisons I have ever heard. I think the internet has given you brain rot.
same logic of dehumanification and tribalism
So every Palestinian is guilty?
You realise Hamas is like 30 years old and started as a charity backed by Israel? They then seized power after killing their rivals.
Should we murder Innocent chinese people because of the communist party? Wipe them off the earth, demolish their cities and Culture?
OK, but Isn'trael is gaining land.
Wasn't Gaza already surrounded before all this? It's a giant prison - it even has walls around the perimeter.
Yes but I think the point now is to take it.
They can say whatever bullshit lies they want, but a popular defense of the current situation is "they had a war and Israel won, so deal with it." So following that logic, if they win this war against "Hamas" (they'll consider all of Palestine Hamas of course) they'll just take Palestine in this war.
I'm like 50/50 on it, but I can definitely see Israel just ending the issue on paper by making it all Israel. The problem of people becomes the UNs problem or other countries that actually give a shit about people.
The problem is that the Palestinians are stuck in Gaza because no one really cares about them. The Palestinians are more convenient as pawns to use in a proxy war against Israel (for example by Iran and Syria) than to actually achieve a permanent, stable arrangement. For Netanyahu, achieving a settlement alienates his base which wants to expel the Palestinians completely, and the conflict maintains anxiety that keeps him elected.
Which country able to absorb 2 millions refugees without causing catastrophic socioeconomic issues? Egypt certainly can't do it. Even if it's spread evenly among, say, 20 richest countries, 100k refugees is still a huge number to deal with and will cause many social issues for years until the refugees are fully integrated into the new society.
And even worse, Hamas uses them too. They have stockpiles of food and water and medicine that aren't sharing with the Palestinians. They take aid meant for the Palestinians. They try to infiltrate refugee groups. They even dismantled a drinking water system the EU funded and used the pipes for rockets.
A global coalition needs to put boots on the ground and simultaneously evacuate civilians while engaging Hamas. They're a pox on everyone.
Lots people across the world care about the plight of Palestinians. The US effectively bribes the ruling classes of several middle-eastern countries to prevent popular will from spilling over into open warfare to oppose Israel's treatment of the indigenous population. It's impossible to understand how Israel gets away with what it does without acknowledging this.
The issue isn't about caring ... the problem is that Palestinians, and the broader middle-east generally, are being oppressed by a western-backed settler-colonial movement.
The US had to twist Egypt's arm to get them to accept refugees, so that doesn't explain things entirely.
Quite a few Arab countries took in Palestinians in the past. The problem is that extremists embedded themselves with the refugees. Egypt, Lebanon, and Jordan all saw civil wars and strife from the extremists who wanted it to be a radical Islamic state. Jordan's king was actually killed by the extremists and the conflict was called Black September. Subsequently, they aren't eager to take in Palestinian refugees.
Bernie Sanders had a fantastic opinion piece the other day that lambasted Israel and Netanyahu, but very importantly, also said lasting peace could not be established without eliminating Hamas. This is a big reason why. Hamas is using the Palestinians.
I never actually said what my point was -- this is a complicated conflict. It isn't as easy as just blaming the US. There's all sorts of geopolitics and history at play here.
The reason why neighboring states are reluctant to accept refugees is that they know they will never be able to return, and the influx of people would destabilize their own societies.
The solution isn't for other countries to start accepting refugees - it's that the Israelis need to stop murdering them.
Every day more of this. Israel clearly doesn't care about civilians and children and will kill anyone it feels like killing.
There's a survivor account translated by Electronic Intifada(mediabiasfactcheck rated them left bias, pro-palestine, mostly factual but not high due to no transparency on their funding, pinch of salt applies) saying IDF, in their effort to kill Hamas combatant, killed israeli held hostaged by Hamas in Be'eri in heavy crossfire, and also shelled the home to eliminate any hiding combatant.
There's also an interview with IDF soldier on the front line that day, as reported by Gray Zone(extreme left, mixed fact, highly opinionated, kilogram of salt applies. They do quote their source though), saying they just shoot at suspected Hamas vehicle to prevent escape, knowing there's a chance Israeli hostages is in it.
Their action in a month checks out with the account on the first few day of battle in Israel, as they bomb the tunnel, disregard the safety of the hostage they're trying so hard to "rescue", that the hostage might get crushed from the collapsing tunnel. They don't care about collateral damage at all, and i fear the hostages that got killed from the ground assault will be pinned on Hamas.
It seems Hamas way overestimated how much compassion Israelis would have for hostages, journalists, or innocent children...
It's a serious miscalculation. IDF has been show not giving a fuck about collateral damage. They shot children to disperse riot. They snipe children and tell the world the kids are armed. They murder journalist then blame it on Hamas.
According to the survivor account, Hamas purposefully inform the police and wait for them to come, instead of retreat with the hostage. They really thought they can talk it off with the police and IDF but they really don't know their enemy at all.
Let's not call it "collateral damage" when it's deliberately shooting or bombing children or other civilians. The term "collateral damage" was the US military's euphemism for supposedly accidental killing of civilians. The IDF doesn't even care to make it look accidental.
You're right, it's murder.
Cutting through gaza like tanks through tiananmen .
Very roughly, of the 778,000 residents of Gaza about 10,000 have died and almost half have been forced to leave their homes. Even if the statement were true, it would not be worth it.
That's the population of urban areas only. The population of Gaza Strip is a little over 2 million. Obviously that doesn't make the casualties any better, but I always like to work with accurate facts.
It's almost like the government calling them subhuman beasts isn't concerned about genociding civilians over a land grab.
(According to Hamas)
They released a named list back when it was 7000. Like with full names and national IDs. They're telling the truth on this one.
I'm sure.
Yes, you should be.
If I was some terrorist dickhead working for Hamas I'd just collate every death which happened from any cause within Gaza and report them as conflict related. Killed by Hamas, killed by Israel, slipped and fell, dead of cancer? Whatever. Just collect all of them.
I don't know how they're fudging the numbers, but it would beggar belief that they aren't. They control the health ministry, they've got all the tools they need to inflate the total as much as they want to.
You sound a lot like the covid death toll deniers with that “logic”
Bro the US government is far more credible than Hamas, and anyone who has a legitimate grasp on reality would agree
Israel itself has said they dropped something like 6000 bombs in the first week. Imagine that number, and then realize Gaza is one of the most populated areas in the world (like pretty much a city all the way through), how would that number of deaths be anything but realistic? Just think about what would happen if they dropped 6000 bombs in Manhatten, how many deaths do you think there would be? If anything, 9000 sounds of the low side.
Then we'd have seen bigger numbers. Gaza has 2.2 million people, and they're currently starving and drinking brackish water.
Wow that's a lot of people dying of natural causes everyday in Gaza.
Gravity is the number 1 killer in the world.
There's a lot of people in Gaza, so, yeah
About 150,000 people die every day world wide out of 8.1 billion. If you assume the same ratio for gaza's 2 million then that would result is approximately 37 deaths per day.
Take into account approximately 30 days of conflict at 37 natural deaths per day that would be around 1100 deaths.
So one can assume that even if they blamed every death of those 10,000 on Israel, at least 8900 probably were.
I really hope you're just too stupid to realize this as genocide denial instead of malicious.
What death numbers are you using Instead?
At least the Gaza Health Ministry is counting, while Israel just seems to fire and forget.
(Hamas)
You split Gaza in half
You get same military, but now two Gaza
Stick wins everytime
so that's multiple hospitals and refugee camps now essentially collected into a concentration camp.
Zionists deserve all the retaliation they get for this genocide.
Do they, though? Do the Palestinians deserve this retaliation for the terrorist acts committed by Hamas? I have no trouble calling this a genocide, and I have no doubt Israel and its supporters will face retaliation, but the people who suffer most are always the least culpable.
Isn't this attitude of righteous retribution just perpetuating the cycle of violence? If we want peace, we must allow space for reconciliation. If we want equality, we must concede respect for our enemies. Otherwise, we might as well wipe them out entirely, which is precisely how Zionists are justifying this genocide.
Zionists and Hamas are two sides of the same coin.
Innocent Israelis and Palestinians do not deserve to suffer because of religious zealots.
If they are the religious zealots though... then they're the ones causing this conflict in the first place.
Please do literally anything else to show us the power of Flex Tape :(
meh??? I ain't changing my xitter/fb/insta pfp to palestinian one.
#humanrights #icare #onlywhitechristianlivesmatter #noantisemitism