Just from his huge switch pre-stroke from "progressives are the future, vote for me I'm a progressive" to openly complaining people think he's a progressive and multiple hard right views...
I really think he's one of the people that get big personality changes after a stroke.
My mom went the other way and became a much happier person and more sympathetic to issues facing others, unfortunately the change can happen either way.
It's either that, or he pulled a Sinema and just lied about being a progressive to get elected
I think people may have been looking at him with rose-tinted glasses.
multiple hard right views
I haven't seen any hard-right views from Fetterman.
Immigration and Israel would be the ones everyone is talking about now...
His immigration stance is bipartisan. Bernie himself wants to limit immigration. I'm a radical immigration proponent (wanna be a citizen and land in USA soil, I'd make you a citizen), but the reality is my opinion is deeply unpopular.
Sadly, protectionism is rampant in the Democratic party.
Israel is similarly bipartisan and not hard-right at all. 61% of Democrat voters support Biden's Israel stance, even if they think Israel is being too aggressive
I absolutely guarantee you his constituents are higher than national average in favor of the policies he is stating.
Your argument for why someone with a D by their name can't have a far right stance is other people with a D by their name have the same stance?
I'm saying that his stance is not "far right," and is instead embraced across the political spectrum
Words cease to have any meaning if "far right" just means "things I don't personally agree with."
But Fetterman is hard-right on his “water is wet” policy!!!
My doctor wife told me that water is only wet due to medical conditions.
Water isn’t actually wet
Um, akshually, have you even considered that maybe Bernie is also far-right??
Bernie is a Zionist, so yes he is far right.
Not hard to define anyone as far right when the defining line in your head is wether or not they chant 'death to America' 5+ times a day.
No, supporting colonization is right wing. They steal Palestinian land, that is an undeniable fact.
I’m saying that his stance is not “far right,” and is instead embraced across the political spectrum
And I'm saying that decades of the "left party" moving to the right doesn't make conservative viewpoints suddenly the average and acceptable behavior for any Democrat.
You're literally arguing that we hold the party standard to the person furtherest to the right, but they're not really on the right because a D is next to their name.
And I’m saying that decades of the “left party” moving to the right
This is not a thing that has happened.
Look up HWs pressure on Israel and the resulting ceasefire, then look at Bidens statements on Israel and decide for yourself which is further right.
Biden is probably the most people Israel president the US has had, not enough people know his political history, it's basically why he was picked as Obama's VP.
I'm wondering if he's posturing for a future presidential run, and the party has told him that he needs to temper his progressive stances if he ever wants to run as a Democrat.
If so, definitely a bummer as he seemed like the exact type to not do that.
I'm also curious how biased the information they are given during briefings is. I can totally see how the information the people have and the information presented (or not presented) in briefings could influence congresspeoples opinions.
The person we see now is who he always was.
Would you even say that about someone who is nicer now, or are they just faking it and their meaner behavior was their true self?
He was faking it for office. And the VBNMW crowd ignored the warnings from the left and elected him. Same with Eric Adams, Hakim Jeffries, and a shit ton of others
"He changed after a stroke" is just a sad cope to not feel like they got gaslighted by normal politician things. Yeah you bought the same lie they all sell... "noo he had a stroke and changed!!"
he's got a quarter million dollars of Israeli money in his pocket. I wonder if that might warp his fucking perception.
I doubt he was exactly lovey-dovey to Palestine before he got that money.
Plus there's that eight billion dollars he got from the UK.
You think Senator Fetterman was given eight billion dollars by the British Monarchy to side with Israel?
I'm saying I'd like a source for the AIPAC donation. I've searched a bit and only found a Reddit comment.
It's likely true, but a source would still be nice.
You think he's got 8 billion? Someone spends to much time on Tiktok, lol.
Media has been warping the perception of the genocide by Israel of Palestine for more than half a century.
Ignores apartheid.
Ignores genocide.
Ignores occupation.
Claims the full history isnt represented on tiktok.
Tbf Palestine also ignores that they did those things to the Jews to begin with and calls for doing it again
But it is funny to see conservative circles praising Fetty when they hated him so much a month ago
Palestinians occupied Israel and installed a two tier justice system? Palestinians have spent 70 years illegally expanding their settlements? Palestinians are committing genocide?
WOW, when did this happen?
Middle Ages
By the end if it there weren’t any Jews left
“Jewish Palestinians” =/= “Israelis”.
The majority of settler occupiers in occupied Palestine are not historically from that region and have no ties to those present in the region in the 8th century. .
So Israel and non-Jewish Palestinians should be forced out?
That hardly seems like a viable solution
Lmao what?
You love to assume. Ever heard why you don’t assume? I’ll let you google it.
What else could be inferred from what you said
Quite a bit. Like, using centuries old conflicts as justification for contemporary wars is sick, and even less meaningful when the majority of those who this justification would be applied to have absolutely no history that ties them to the supposed historical events.
On the other hand, the people who started the Gaza genocide, are not only still alive, many of them are still in positions of power, and still actively engaging in furthering and perpetuating the genocidal project of the Israelis.
So, if, by your logic, Jewish Israelis, who the vast majority of which have no ethnic or cultural ties to Palestine, can use 15 century old conflicts as the basis for modern day genocide, then why can’t contemporary Palestinians, who can put a face and name to those actively engaging in genocide against them, fight back? Why is it always framed as if Palestine attacking Israel is an act of aggression, while the wholesale oppression and systematic murder of Palestinians is never seen as such? The Al-Aqsa Flood was a desperate measure by an oppressed group in the fact of escalating violence against them. Hundreds or thousands of Palestinians are extrajudicially killed every year, thousands arrested and held for months or years without trial. Thousands dispossessed of their homes every year. It is definitively an act of defense to attack those perpetuating these violent abuses upon them.
Isn’t your logic then that if Israel doesn’t stop then they will rightfully own the area because there won’t be any descendants of the people they killed?
As per my original point, if you ignore the other side then it’s easy to see yourself as right
And as you can see by the people replying to me, they have no clue about the other side of it
Don’t try to “both sides” me
If you have any understanding of “last time they killed us they eradicated us” then you might understand why Israel is acting the way they are
And you’ll get people chanting to get rid of Israel/extend Palestine to the sea
Of course Israel is going to be fighting for their lives
It’s fine if you want that but don’t blame the other side for thinking you want that and don’t pretend to be leftist if you aren’t looking for a joint solution
As for anyone dumb enough to say “they have no choice but terrorism/violence” that is only justified when you want to eliminate the other side
We don’t blow up pipelines or execute billionaires in hopes of a compromise, we do it in hopes to get rid of them
I'm sorry but the happenings of a thousand years ago do not qualify for a modern war.
Yeah, I really want to hear senior Dem leadership tell the youth they’re listening to the “wrong” news sources about the Israel/Palestine conflict. /s
Is he in the pocket of AIPAC or simply never considered that support for Israel is support for genocide?
Get on the right side of history, dude.
you consider him senior dem leadership?
I agree that Congress is not on the right side of history here, but he's not entirely wrong. Few people have nuanced views that say Israel and Hamas are bad, and instead try to oversimplify to give people a side to root for.
It's a clusterfuck of politics, war crimes, and ancient grudges, and Palestine is stuck between.
I think there are more than a few people who feel that Israel and Hamas are both bad actors here.
I hope you're right, because that hasn't been my experience.
They get downvoted or banned and tend to post less and less because of it. It's one of those social media echo chamber things.
72% of Palestinians say the October 7th attack was justified. It's just just a few Hamas fighters hiding among completely innocent civilians. Most of them actively want the violence to continue, just not aimed at them.
But most isn't all, and it's hard to blame an eight year old who has been told his whole life that his greatest calling is to sacrifice himself to kill some Jews while he sees an IDF soldier shooting out his brother's kneecap.
There are no good guys here. I'd be happy if we reduced or stopped Israel funding. But that's not gonna make me fly a Palestinian flag while cheering for them like a sports team.
Those of us who feel like both are to blame tend to be outshouted by the "I ALWAYS STAND WITH ISRAEL NO MATTER WHAT THEY DO" and the "HAMAS ARE JUST FREEDOM FIGHTERS SO ANYTHING THEY DO IS JUSTIFIED" groups. And if we speak up to point out that both groups have issues, we get attacked by both groups for not being on a side and especially for not being on their side.
One of the big problems with the Middle East is that it's a messy situation and people like simple narratives. They don't want to hear a hundred plus years of attacks, revenge attacks, generational trauma, etc. That's not easy to resolve. Instead, people want to know that A is always good and B is always bad. That's nice and simple and easy to fix. You just eliminate the bad people and all is well.
Sadly, the real world is rarely so black and white.
As an Irish person I can say with some experience that what Hamas is doing is not justified but it is pretty much inevitable. And unless Israel are really going to continue their genocide, all they've done is perpetuate this inevitability.
I feel you, I should not have to lead every criticism of Israel with a criticism of Hamas. I can criticize the fucking government. I don’t think I need to condemn terrorist that everyone knows are already terrorist.
I expect more from a fucking government than I do of Terrorists.
But if you just want to do the same stuff that they’re doing, you’re not a good guy so don’t call yourself. Don’t try to pretend to be one just admit that you are what you are, the bad guys, not every situation has good guys
The reverse is true. Every criticism of Hamas should be led with a criticism of Israel.
The Palestinians have tried every form of peaceful protest which led to them getting shot by Israel. Hamas is a reaction to Israel's deeds. That reaction did not appear out of thin air for no reason.
Saying there are two evils in this situation is a milquetoast take. Hamas is morally gray. Israel is the only real evil party here.
No, no, they lost all of their great area when they attack a Music festival full of civilians and kidnapped and killed children.
That is 100% sold in the morally black area
There is no evidence of Hamas intentionally killing any children. There is plenty of evidence of Hamas sparing children. Almost all of the kids were likely killed by the IDF shelling the Kibbutzes.
The music festival wasn't even supposed to be there anymore but was extended so that was just an unlucky coincidence. Hamas leadership stated that this was not planned and wasn't their goal. Their targets were military bases.
Also there were armed soldiers at the festival with guns.
The IDF however does plans to kill children in a children's hospital that are getting treated from having the leg blown off from the IDF bombing their house. THAT is not a coincidence. They do this with full knowledge, satalite imagery and guided missiles.
They still kidnapped babies friend, that is their rubicon.
They didn't kill the baby like israel does though.
Also if they didn't take the baby there was a big risk of the baby being bombed by israeli hellfire missles or shot by israeli tanks so you could say Hamas saved the baby.
Sadly the IDF really wanted to kill that baby so they shot a rocket at it when it was in Gaza and managed to kill it. Hamas really did everything they could to save it.
It’s just super fucking annoying that all of our politicians are stuck in zero-sum tribal thinking, and cannot comprehend that most rational people think Hamas AND the Israeli government are complete psychos, and that the vast majority of Palestinian and Israeli civilians (specifically excluding “settlers”, who are violent, racist, theocratic, nationalist pieces of shit) are simply caught in the middle.
Weird, we only seem to meme about Israel...
I don't use tiktok as I think it makes us dumber but I imagine the ratio is relatively similar.
How many tik toks have you seen about the long history of peace offerings Hamas has refused?
How many have you seen of Israelis dumping water down the drain to make fun of the Palestinians they don’t have any?
I’ve seen more than one and I don’t use TikTok.
Zero.
I have no idea where one would even find one but it sounds like the algorithms are working exactly as designed; exposing you to content that makes you think the worst of the other side so as to trigger your outrage and clicks.
If Mike Tyson fought a 9 year old for calling him a bitch...
Yeah, they're both in the wrong. But post fight it wouldn't be rational to say they're both at equally at fault.
Especially if Mike didn't stop with that kid and just beat up every child in the room
I get what you're saying, but I think that analogy doesn't really capture the gravity of what happened. Both of them have committed egregious war crimes, which means people aren't just beat up, they're dead. Israel has certainly committed an order of magnitude more, but I don't think it does the victims justice to imply Israel is the big, strong adult who merely got kicked in the shins by Hamas.
I think your analogy could be improved if you changed the 9yo vs Mike Tyson to the 9yo's adult cousin who fights Mike Tyson for the family honor but also abuses the 9yo for fun. Still doesn't capture the gravity of the number of innocent people who have died, but it at least represents the parties involved a bit better.
Is Israel the child abuser in your scenario?
No, Hamas is the abuser in his scenario.
Palestine is the abused child then, and Israel abuses the child too
I didn't write the metaphor. I just explained what it meant, when following the logical structure within
You can be on the side of civilians. Pretty simple actually
I agree. I don't see other people (other than a relative few on the Fediverse) who see it that way, because they want a clear villain to defeat.
It's a pretty simple stance to take, you know the "don't go around killing/maiming/terrorizing/raping random civilians" stance. It shouldn't be hard to say "treat people with respect". No matter if they are friend, enemy, or bystander.
What if I told you there are citizens in Israel who have been hurt by the conflict
Eye for an eye. The violence has to stop somewhere. Maybe before the death toll hits a million?
Dont care, they shouldn't be occupying someone else land
See, this is the shit. Who are the occupiers? Palestine is a remnant of the Ottoman empire. Before that it was the Byzantines or the Romans and just about every other empire in the area in human history. Before Rome , it was the Jews. Then they lost the war and were banished from the region and scattered. It's the major reason there is NO one right answer. People going to a concert don't deserve to be brutally raped and murdered JUST as much as people trying to survive in an open air prison don't deserve to be indiscriminately bombed. That shit has been a dumpster fire for 3000 years, now all in the pursuit of power and clout. We can give a damn about people not in power, AKA the civilians on both sides.
See, this is the shit. Who are the occupiers?
Clearly, Israeli blood isn't pure enough to inhabit the land, they'll always be occupiers. /s
Certain accounts on there, yeah. Turns out it's not hard to be credible if you just try.
Unironically yes.
dem leadership
So you’re just making shit up? Fetterman ain’t leadership lmao he’s a fucking freshman, the fuck you talking about
Is he in the pocket of AIPAC or simply never considered that support for Israel is support for genocide?
if you actually fucking cared, you would find that his district is one of the biggest for Jewish populations. It is clear he is representing his continents whether you agree or not.
if you actually fucking cared, you would find that his district is one of the biggest for Jewish populations. It is clear he is representing his continents whether you agree or not.
Jewish Americans tend to be much more friendly towards the Palestinian cause than non-Jewish Americans.
Ok, I followed the happenings in Gaza via Tiktok, among other things. My perception is that the IDF bombs the shit out of the Gaza strip and nowhere is safe. 20000 people died, many more severly disfigured. What is wrong with my perception?
Tiktok is highly partial in general. So are US Senators.
He's probably not wrong in this case though in the past the Chinese don't push one view, they push both extremes to purposefully create division (eg they fund both BLM and proud boys)
they fund both BLM and proud boys
Where can I find more about that?
That's just basic psyops, Russia also has a successful history of propping up opposing factions.
Fear, uncertainty, and doubt [FUD] are tools to misinform people and erode trust in their social organizations, so that a malicious actor can divide and conquer their enemy
This feels quite familiar as a European. Political unrest seems to have increased drastically.
The thing about the cracks psyops aim to lever apart is they usually existed prior.
Did you guys think you tripped and ended up near to civil war by accident? 😅
Jesus, did you read either article? One is about Chinese-American individuals (these are Americans) who donated to proud boys and one is a historical account of ties between civil rights activists and Mao's government. These are not the same people.
What's the limit? Because this is just the tip of the iceberg. We've got then using 2000 pound bombs in civilian areas on "tunnel entrances" they have no evidence were in use by Hamas. We've got then bombing hospitals and showing us standard security guard equipment for the middle east in an attempt to portray a military command post. They lied about a calendar that was plainly visible on the wall.
At what point do you admit they are purging the Warsaw ghetto?
OK boomer
Ok, zoomer.
I'm ashamed to have supported him, and if nobody else will primary him I will. I'll lose, but clearly I need to do these jobs myself. Just like every goddamn thing else.
It's amazing how much those sentences contradict each other.
DaBabyAteMaDingo says Lemmy creating ‘warped’ perceptions of Israel-Hamas war
Both sides are incredibly biased and think they're right.
The only proper stance to have on this is that Israel's genocide of Palestinians must stop, Hamas needs to be taken out, and Netanyahu should be deposed.
Then, Israel needs to be split into a smaller section and land given back to the Palestinians.
Gaza and West Bank do not work as being surrounded by Israel. They are prisons.
The killing has to end.
At this point I'm done with the whole two state solution thing. That was bending over backwards to protect a colonial state while we all felt guilty. They squandered that. It's time for a single state solution with full voting rights. And yes that means the end of Israel as we know it. But that's how it went for South Africa, and Zimbabwe, and Rwanda, and countless other colonial remnants that held on too long.
Why would Hamas need to be taken out? Violent resistance to a terrorist Nazi state is not illegal.
Taking out Hamas will solve absolutely nothing as 5 other organizations will pop up in their place. The problem is only israel, not Hamas.
Israel cannot be reasoned with and the two state thing will never happen. All the israeli ministers are already screaming it from the rooftops on national TV.
it''s like telling Hitler to peacefully live next to the Jews. Or the whites in Apartheid south Africa to just take half the land for themselves.
The problem has always been with Israel which is the bully. You are playing the teacher right now that says "you two divide the meal" when the bully beats a kid up and steals his lunch.
Hamas is a literal terrorist group that indiscriminately kills.
Romanticizing them as some kind of freedom fighters is not only reductive but plain wrong.
They are antisemitic extremist terrorists
Israel shoots unarmed protestors and says boycotting Israel is terrorism. When you refuse to allow any nonviolent resistance what do you expect will happen?
Netanyahu spent decades undermining Palestinians who actually want peace, because they get in the way of his plan to take all the land. He doesn’t want compromise. He doesn’t want any Palestinians as neighbors. His extremism creates more extremism.
Conveniently ignoring that Israel was historically the party offering a two state solution that was rejected.
The resistance wouldn't even be necessary if Hamas leaders weren't both extremists without an interest in their own people's well-being and incredibly corrupt.
That being said, fuck netanyahu, too. Doesn't make Hamas less of a terrorist group tho.
That’s historically untrue. Israel offered an unworkable solution and it was rejected. Palestinians offered another solution and it was rejected by Israel. The US offered a solution and that was rejected too. The UN offered a solution and both sides rejected it.
It’s revisionist history to put the blame solely on one side.
Hamas fully recognized Israel and got nothing in return, as Netanyahu then moved the goalposts. Gazans peacefully protested and got shot by Israeli military. They asked the UN for help and Israel called it “diplomatic terrorism” and punished them for trying. The Netanyahu government has bragged that they blocked peace plans for 17 years. Believe them when they say it.
This is false Hamas has specifically avoided targeting children and their attacks were heavily targeted around military bases.
Israel is a Terrorist group that indiscriminately kills. You seem to confuse them with each other but always keep in mind that israel is far more evil than Hamas.
Brainwashed to the max lmao.
No you are sadly. There are mountains of videos of Hamas avoiding killing children on Oct7 and not a single video of Hamas intentionally killing a child.
You are as brainwashed by IDF colonists as Russians that invade Ukraine
Violent resistance to a terrorist Nazi state is not illegal.
Hamas’ violent resistance is directed at innocent civilians. Regardless of how you personally feel about it, Hamas are being taken out. And if 5 other orgs pop up they’ll be taken out too. Your Hamas has lost. Move on.
Lmao really that joke? You're still on the IDF propaganda train?
Hamas attacked military bases and their targeting was pretty good with a lower than 2/3 civilian casualty to IDF terrorist kill rate.
Look at the pure numbers after all the IDF propaganda of beheaded babies and you'll see very quickly that Hamas attack was not indiscriminate whatsoever.
Now the IDF kill numbers do clearly show that they are indiscriminately targeting civilians because the IDF is a terrorist organization only interested in genocide.
I just hope both teams have fun.
Keep trolling while hamas is being removed. See what good it does you.
Last time I checked the IDF was shooting at Israeli hostages. Hamas is still up and running no problem.
Hot take: I voted for him in the primary, and im going to vote for him again in 2028.
There is no way forward for palastine in which Hamas exists. If the palestinians chose to continue to fight it's gonna end one was, with them cleansed from the land.
See the Westbank with much better conditions fot the arabs because there aren't non stop rocket attacks.
Also the settlements have to stop yesterday and the land partially returned
Just from his huge switch pre-stroke from "progressives are the future, vote for me I'm a progressive" to openly complaining people think he's a progressive and multiple hard right views...
I really think he's one of the people that get big personality changes after a stroke.
My mom went the other way and became a much happier person and more sympathetic to issues facing others, unfortunately the change can happen either way.
It's either that, or he pulled a Sinema and just lied about being a progressive to get elected
I think people may have been looking at him with rose-tinted glasses.
I haven't seen any hard-right views from Fetterman.
Immigration and Israel would be the ones everyone is talking about now...
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/12/john-fetterman-is-the-status-quo-in-gym-shorts.html
His immigration stance is bipartisan. Bernie himself wants to limit immigration. I'm a radical immigration proponent (wanna be a citizen and land in USA soil, I'd make you a citizen), but the reality is my opinion is deeply unpopular.
Sadly, protectionism is rampant in the Democratic party.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/2/25/21143931/bernie-sanders-immigration-record-explained
Israel is similarly bipartisan and not hard-right at all. 61% of Democrat voters support Biden's Israel stance, even if they think Israel is being too aggressive
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/11/17/democrats-israel-polls/
I absolutely guarantee you his constituents are higher than national average in favor of the policies he is stating.
Your argument for why someone with a D by their name can't have a far right stance is other people with a D by their name have the same stance?
I'm saying that his stance is not "far right," and is instead embraced across the political spectrum
Words cease to have any meaning if "far right" just means "things I don't personally agree with."
But Fetterman is hard-right on his “water is wet” policy!!!
My doctor wife told me that water is only wet due to medical conditions.
Water isn’t actually wet
Um, akshually, have you even considered that maybe Bernie is also far-right??
Bernie is a Zionist, so yes he is far right.
Not hard to define anyone as far right when the defining line in your head is wether or not they chant 'death to America' 5+ times a day.
No, supporting colonization is right wing. They steal Palestinian land, that is an undeniable fact.
And I'm saying that decades of the "left party" moving to the right doesn't make conservative viewpoints suddenly the average and acceptable behavior for any Democrat.
You're literally arguing that we hold the party standard to the person furtherest to the right, but they're not really on the right because a D is next to their name.
This is not a thing that has happened.
Look up HWs pressure on Israel and the resulting ceasefire, then look at Bidens statements on Israel and decide for yourself which is further right.
Biden is probably the most people Israel president the US has had, not enough people know his political history, it's basically why he was picked as Obama's VP.
I'm wondering if he's posturing for a future presidential run, and the party has told him that he needs to temper his progressive stances if he ever wants to run as a Democrat.
If so, definitely a bummer as he seemed like the exact type to not do that.
I'm also curious how biased the information they are given during briefings is. I can totally see how the information the people have and the information presented (or not presented) in briefings could influence congresspeoples opinions.
The person we see now is who he always was.
Would you even say that about someone who is nicer now, or are they just faking it and their meaner behavior was their true self?
He was faking it for office. And the VBNMW crowd ignored the warnings from the left and elected him. Same with Eric Adams, Hakim Jeffries, and a shit ton of others
"He changed after a stroke" is just a sad cope to not feel like they got gaslighted by normal politician things. Yeah you bought the same lie they all sell... "noo he had a stroke and changed!!"
he's got a quarter million dollars of Israeli money in his pocket. I wonder if that might warp his fucking perception.
I doubt he was exactly lovey-dovey to Palestine before he got that money.
Plus there's that eight billion dollars he got from the UK.
You think Senator Fetterman was given eight billion dollars by the British Monarchy to side with Israel?
I'm saying I'd like a source for the AIPAC donation. I've searched a bit and only found a Reddit comment.
https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/american-israel-public-affairs-cmte/recipients?id=D000046963&t2-search=Fett
It's likely true, but a source would still be nice.
You think he's got 8 billion? Someone spends to much time on Tiktok, lol.
Media has been warping the perception of the genocide by Israel of Palestine for more than half a century.
Ignores apartheid. Ignores genocide. Ignores occupation. Claims the full history isnt represented on tiktok.
Tbf Palestine also ignores that they did those things to the Jews to begin with and calls for doing it again
But it is funny to see conservative circles praising Fetty when they hated him so much a month ago
Palestinians occupied Israel and installed a two tier justice system? Palestinians have spent 70 years illegally expanding their settlements? Palestinians are committing genocide?
WOW, when did this happen?
Middle Ages
By the end if it there weren’t any Jews left
“Jewish Palestinians” =/= “Israelis”.
The majority of settler occupiers in occupied Palestine are not historically from that region and have no ties to those present in the region in the 8th century. .
So Israel and non-Jewish Palestinians should be forced out?
That hardly seems like a viable solution
Lmao what?
You love to assume. Ever heard why you don’t assume? I’ll let you google it.
What else could be inferred from what you said
Quite a bit. Like, using centuries old conflicts as justification for contemporary wars is sick, and even less meaningful when the majority of those who this justification would be applied to have absolutely no history that ties them to the supposed historical events.
On the other hand, the people who started the Gaza genocide, are not only still alive, many of them are still in positions of power, and still actively engaging in furthering and perpetuating the genocidal project of the Israelis.
So, if, by your logic, Jewish Israelis, who the vast majority of which have no ethnic or cultural ties to Palestine, can use 15 century old conflicts as the basis for modern day genocide, then why can’t contemporary Palestinians, who can put a face and name to those actively engaging in genocide against them, fight back? Why is it always framed as if Palestine attacking Israel is an act of aggression, while the wholesale oppression and systematic murder of Palestinians is never seen as such? The Al-Aqsa Flood was a desperate measure by an oppressed group in the fact of escalating violence against them. Hundreds or thousands of Palestinians are extrajudicially killed every year, thousands arrested and held for months or years without trial. Thousands dispossessed of their homes every year. It is definitively an act of defense to attack those perpetuating these violent abuses upon them.
Isn’t your logic then that if Israel doesn’t stop then they will rightfully own the area because there won’t be any descendants of the people they killed?
As per my original point, if you ignore the other side then it’s easy to see yourself as right
And as you can see by the people replying to me, they have no clue about the other side of it
Don’t try to “both sides” me
If you have any understanding of “last time they killed us they eradicated us” then you might understand why Israel is acting the way they are
And you’ll get people chanting to get rid of Israel/extend Palestine to the sea
Of course Israel is going to be fighting for their lives
It’s fine if you want that but don’t blame the other side for thinking you want that and don’t pretend to be leftist if you aren’t looking for a joint solution
As for anyone dumb enough to say “they have no choice but terrorism/violence” that is only justified when you want to eliminate the other side
We don’t blow up pipelines or execute billionaires in hopes of a compromise, we do it in hopes to get rid of them
I'm sorry but the happenings of a thousand years ago do not qualify for a modern war.
Yeah, I really want to hear senior Dem leadership tell the youth they’re listening to the “wrong” news sources about the Israel/Palestine conflict. /s
Is he in the pocket of AIPAC or simply never considered that support for Israel is support for genocide?
Get on the right side of history, dude.
you consider him senior dem leadership?
I agree that Congress is not on the right side of history here, but he's not entirely wrong. Few people have nuanced views that say Israel and Hamas are bad, and instead try to oversimplify to give people a side to root for.
It's a clusterfuck of politics, war crimes, and ancient grudges, and Palestine is stuck between.
I think there are more than a few people who feel that Israel and Hamas are both bad actors here.
I hope you're right, because that hasn't been my experience.
They get downvoted or banned and tend to post less and less because of it. It's one of those social media echo chamber things.
72% of Palestinians say the October 7th attack was justified. It's just just a few Hamas fighters hiding among completely innocent civilians. Most of them actively want the violence to continue, just not aimed at them.
But most isn't all, and it's hard to blame an eight year old who has been told his whole life that his greatest calling is to sacrifice himself to kill some Jews while he sees an IDF soldier shooting out his brother's kneecap.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/
There are no good guys here. I'd be happy if we reduced or stopped Israel funding. But that's not gonna make me fly a Palestinian flag while cheering for them like a sports team.
Those of us who feel like both are to blame tend to be outshouted by the "I ALWAYS STAND WITH ISRAEL NO MATTER WHAT THEY DO" and the "HAMAS ARE JUST FREEDOM FIGHTERS SO ANYTHING THEY DO IS JUSTIFIED" groups. And if we speak up to point out that both groups have issues, we get attacked by both groups for not being on a side and especially for not being on their side.
One of the big problems with the Middle East is that it's a messy situation and people like simple narratives. They don't want to hear a hundred plus years of attacks, revenge attacks, generational trauma, etc. That's not easy to resolve. Instead, people want to know that A is always good and B is always bad. That's nice and simple and easy to fix. You just eliminate the bad people and all is well.
Sadly, the real world is rarely so black and white.
As an Irish person I can say with some experience that what Hamas is doing is not justified but it is pretty much inevitable. And unless Israel are really going to continue their genocide, all they've done is perpetuate this inevitability.
I feel you, I should not have to lead every criticism of Israel with a criticism of Hamas. I can criticize the fucking government. I don’t think I need to condemn terrorist that everyone knows are already terrorist.
I expect more from a fucking government than I do of Terrorists.
But if you just want to do the same stuff that they’re doing, you’re not a good guy so don’t call yourself. Don’t try to pretend to be one just admit that you are what you are, the bad guys, not every situation has good guys
The reverse is true. Every criticism of Hamas should be led with a criticism of Israel.
The Palestinians have tried every form of peaceful protest which led to them getting shot by Israel. Hamas is a reaction to Israel's deeds. That reaction did not appear out of thin air for no reason.
Saying there are two evils in this situation is a milquetoast take. Hamas is morally gray. Israel is the only real evil party here.
No, no, they lost all of their great area when they attack a Music festival full of civilians and kidnapped and killed children.
That is 100% sold in the morally black area
There is no evidence of Hamas intentionally killing any children. There is plenty of evidence of Hamas sparing children. Almost all of the kids were likely killed by the IDF shelling the Kibbutzes.
The music festival wasn't even supposed to be there anymore but was extended so that was just an unlucky coincidence. Hamas leadership stated that this was not planned and wasn't their goal. Their targets were military bases.
Also there were armed soldiers at the festival with guns.
The IDF however does plans to kill children in a children's hospital that are getting treated from having the leg blown off from the IDF bombing their house. THAT is not a coincidence. They do this with full knowledge, satalite imagery and guided missiles.
They still kidnapped babies friend, that is their rubicon.
They didn't kill the baby like israel does though.
Also if they didn't take the baby there was a big risk of the baby being bombed by israeli hellfire missles or shot by israeli tanks so you could say Hamas saved the baby.
Sadly the IDF really wanted to kill that baby so they shot a rocket at it when it was in Gaza and managed to kill it. Hamas really did everything they could to save it.
Oh my bad, I didn’t realize you were trolling.
Have a good one
You can stop shilling for the IDF already.
It’s just super fucking annoying that all of our politicians are stuck in zero-sum tribal thinking, and cannot comprehend that most rational people think Hamas AND the Israeli government are complete psychos, and that the vast majority of Palestinian and Israeli civilians (specifically excluding “settlers”, who are violent, racist, theocratic, nationalist pieces of shit) are simply caught in the middle.
Weird, we only seem to meme about Israel...
I don't use tiktok as I think it makes us dumber but I imagine the ratio is relatively similar.
How many tik toks have you seen about the long history of peace offerings Hamas has refused?
How many have you seen of Israelis dumping water down the drain to make fun of the Palestinians they don’t have any?
I’ve seen more than one and I don’t use TikTok.
Zero.
I have no idea where one would even find one but it sounds like the algorithms are working exactly as designed; exposing you to content that makes you think the worst of the other side so as to trigger your outrage and clicks.
If Mike Tyson fought a 9 year old for calling him a bitch...
Yeah, they're both in the wrong. But post fight it wouldn't be rational to say they're both at equally at fault.
Especially if Mike didn't stop with that kid and just beat up every child in the room
I get what you're saying, but I think that analogy doesn't really capture the gravity of what happened. Both of them have committed egregious war crimes, which means people aren't just beat up, they're dead. Israel has certainly committed an order of magnitude more, but I don't think it does the victims justice to imply Israel is the big, strong adult who merely got kicked in the shins by Hamas.
I think your analogy could be improved if you changed the 9yo vs Mike Tyson to the 9yo's adult cousin who fights Mike Tyson for the family honor but also abuses the 9yo for fun. Still doesn't capture the gravity of the number of innocent people who have died, but it at least represents the parties involved a bit better.
Is Israel the child abuser in your scenario?
No, Hamas is the abuser in his scenario.
Palestine is the abused child then, and Israel abuses the child too
I didn't write the metaphor. I just explained what it meant, when following the logical structure within
You can be on the side of civilians. Pretty simple actually
I agree. I don't see other people (other than a relative few on the Fediverse) who see it that way, because they want a clear villain to defeat.
It's a pretty simple stance to take, you know the "don't go around killing/maiming/terrorizing/raping random civilians" stance. It shouldn't be hard to say "treat people with respect". No matter if they are friend, enemy, or bystander.
What if I told you there are citizens in Israel who have been hurt by the conflict
Eye for an eye. The violence has to stop somewhere. Maybe before the death toll hits a million?
Dont care, they shouldn't be occupying someone else land
See, this is the shit. Who are the occupiers? Palestine is a remnant of the Ottoman empire. Before that it was the Byzantines or the Romans and just about every other empire in the area in human history. Before Rome , it was the Jews. Then they lost the war and were banished from the region and scattered. It's the major reason there is NO one right answer. People going to a concert don't deserve to be brutally raped and murdered JUST as much as people trying to survive in an open air prison don't deserve to be indiscriminately bombed. That shit has been a dumpster fire for 3000 years, now all in the pursuit of power and clout. We can give a damn about people not in power, AKA the civilians on both sides.
Clearly, Israeli blood isn't pure enough to inhabit the land, they'll always be occupiers. /s
So far, I've seen far more people claiming someone else is defending Hamas than I've seen people actually defending them.
Tik tok is a news source?
Certain accounts on there, yeah. Turns out it's not hard to be credible if you just try.
Unironically yes.
So you’re just making shit up? Fetterman ain’t leadership lmao he’s a fucking freshman, the fuck you talking about
if you actually fucking cared, you would find that his district is one of the biggest for Jewish populations. It is clear he is representing his continents whether you agree or not.
Jewish Americans tend to be much more friendly towards the Palestinian cause than non-Jewish Americans.
Ok, I followed the happenings in Gaza via Tiktok, among other things. My perception is that the IDF bombs the shit out of the Gaza strip and nowhere is safe. 20000 people died, many more severly disfigured. What is wrong with my perception?
Tiktok is highly partial in general. So are US Senators.
He's probably not wrong in this case though in the past the Chinese don't push one view, they push both extremes to purposefully create division (eg they fund both BLM and proud boys)
Where can I find more about that?
That's just basic psyops, Russia also has a successful history of propping up opposing factions.
Fear, uncertainty, and doubt [FUD] are tools to misinform people and erode trust in their social organizations, so that a malicious actor can divide and conquer their enemy
This feels quite familiar as a European. Political unrest seems to have increased drastically.
The thing about the cracks psyops aim to lever apart is they usually existed prior.
Google works but try this:
https://amp.scmp.com/news/world/united-states-canada/article/3132775/proud-boys-got-over-us8000-donations-chinese
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/09/28/forgotten-alliance-between-black-activists-china/
Did you guys think you tripped and ended up near to civil war by accident? 😅
Jesus, did you read either article? One is about Chinese-American individuals (these are Americans) who donated to proud boys and one is a historical account of ties between civil rights activists and Mao's government. These are not the same people.
No, but I never thought it would be that blatant.
It is.
But the accurate perception is also really bad. Israel is committing genocide
What about the UN? Is the OHCHR a warped perspective?
How about Reuters?
What's the limit? Because this is just the tip of the iceberg. We've got then using 2000 pound bombs in civilian areas on "tunnel entrances" they have no evidence were in use by Hamas. We've got then bombing hospitals and showing us standard security guard equipment for the middle east in an attempt to portray a military command post. They lied about a calendar that was plainly visible on the wall.
At what point do you admit they are purging the Warsaw ghetto?
OK boomer
Ok, zoomer.
I'm ashamed to have supported him, and if nobody else will primary him I will. I'll lose, but clearly I need to do these jobs myself. Just like every goddamn thing else.
It's amazing how much those sentences contradict each other.
DaBabyAteMaDingo says Lemmy creating ‘warped’ perceptions of Israel-Hamas war
Both sides are incredibly biased and think they're right.
The only proper stance to have on this is that Israel's genocide of Palestinians must stop, Hamas needs to be taken out, and Netanyahu should be deposed.
Then, Israel needs to be split into a smaller section and land given back to the Palestinians.
Gaza and West Bank do not work as being surrounded by Israel. They are prisons.
The killing has to end.
At this point I'm done with the whole two state solution thing. That was bending over backwards to protect a colonial state while we all felt guilty. They squandered that. It's time for a single state solution with full voting rights. And yes that means the end of Israel as we know it. But that's how it went for South Africa, and Zimbabwe, and Rwanda, and countless other colonial remnants that held on too long.
Why would Hamas need to be taken out? Violent resistance to a terrorist Nazi state is not illegal.
Taking out Hamas will solve absolutely nothing as 5 other organizations will pop up in their place. The problem is only israel, not Hamas.
Israel cannot be reasoned with and the two state thing will never happen. All the israeli ministers are already screaming it from the rooftops on national TV.
it''s like telling Hitler to peacefully live next to the Jews. Or the whites in Apartheid south Africa to just take half the land for themselves.
The problem has always been with Israel which is the bully. You are playing the teacher right now that says "you two divide the meal" when the bully beats a kid up and steals his lunch.
Hamas is a literal terrorist group that indiscriminately kills.
Romanticizing them as some kind of freedom fighters is not only reductive but plain wrong.
They are antisemitic extremist terrorists
Israel shoots unarmed protestors and says boycotting Israel is terrorism. When you refuse to allow any nonviolent resistance what do you expect will happen?
Netanyahu spent decades undermining Palestinians who actually want peace, because they get in the way of his plan to take all the land. He doesn’t want compromise. He doesn’t want any Palestinians as neighbors. His extremism creates more extremism.
Conveniently ignoring that Israel was historically the party offering a two state solution that was rejected.
The resistance wouldn't even be necessary if Hamas leaders weren't both extremists without an interest in their own people's well-being and incredibly corrupt.
That being said, fuck netanyahu, too. Doesn't make Hamas less of a terrorist group tho.
That’s historically untrue. Israel offered an unworkable solution and it was rejected. Palestinians offered another solution and it was rejected by Israel. The US offered a solution and that was rejected too. The UN offered a solution and both sides rejected it.
It’s revisionist history to put the blame solely on one side.
Hamas fully recognized Israel and got nothing in return, as Netanyahu then moved the goalposts. Gazans peacefully protested and got shot by Israeli military. They asked the UN for help and Israel called it “diplomatic terrorism” and punished them for trying. The Netanyahu government has bragged that they blocked peace plans for 17 years. Believe them when they say it.
This is false Hamas has specifically avoided targeting children and their attacks were heavily targeted around military bases.
Israel is a Terrorist group that indiscriminately kills. You seem to confuse them with each other but always keep in mind that israel is far more evil than Hamas.
Brainwashed to the max lmao.
No you are sadly. There are mountains of videos of Hamas avoiding killing children on Oct7 and not a single video of Hamas intentionally killing a child.
You are as brainwashed by IDF colonists as Russians that invade Ukraine
Hamas’ violent resistance is directed at innocent civilians. Regardless of how you personally feel about it, Hamas are being taken out. And if 5 other orgs pop up they’ll be taken out too. Your Hamas has lost. Move on.
Lmao really that joke? You're still on the IDF propaganda train?
Hamas attacked military bases and their targeting was pretty good with a lower than 2/3 civilian casualty to IDF terrorist kill rate.
Look at the pure numbers after all the IDF propaganda of beheaded babies and you'll see very quickly that Hamas attack was not indiscriminate whatsoever.
Now the IDF kill numbers do clearly show that they are indiscriminately targeting civilians because the IDF is a terrorist organization only interested in genocide.
I just hope both teams have fun.
Keep trolling while hamas is being removed. See what good it does you.
Last time I checked the IDF was shooting at Israeli hostages. Hamas is still up and running no problem.
Hot take: I voted for him in the primary, and im going to vote for him again in 2028.
There is no way forward for palastine in which Hamas exists. If the palestinians chose to continue to fight it's gonna end one was, with them cleansed from the land. See the Westbank with much better conditions fot the arabs because there aren't non stop rocket attacks. Also the settlements have to stop yesterday and the land partially returned
Hamas pretty much wouldn't exist if Israel wasn't funding them: https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-security-forces-escorted-suitcases-cash-hamas-qatar-report-2023-12?r=US&IR=T
And hamas certainly wouldn't exist if the Palestinian people weren't being murdered for their land for decades.
Mmmmm yes much better conditions.
Takes a liar to spot a liar i guess
Takes a liar to spot a liar i guess