Your friend loves your least favourite politician. What do you say?
This question's on my mind because my coworker today mentioned they would vote for Trump if they could (mind you this is 2023, in Canada). I don't generally have the talking points or the desire to fight about it, so I just deflected the conversation. But I often wish I was more strong-willed and could try to figure out why someone believes what they do and, if it's invalid, then convince them otherwise.
Thus, I'm curious what you all would say or what you've done in the past!
Friends don't let friends support fascists.
While I like the sentiment, it doesn't actually address OP's question. My guess is OP also hates fascists but has trouble discussing their opinions on politics with their fasc-curious friend for whatever reason, whether it's because they want to preserve the relationship or generally have trouble keeping up in a back and forth (which is totally fine, being quick-witted is not a requirement to hate fascists). What are your tips for approaching the conversation?
If you're privileged enough not to be threatened in that situation (ie you're not a younger woman, an immigrant, LGBTQ+) and it's not emotionally damaging to maintain the relationship, do. Be there, but be open about different and willing to answer questions. Either they'll be an ass eventually, or maybe, just maybe, you can show them the rabbit hole is just their head in the sand. Cult deprogrammers say over and over that the best way to get people to see reason is through personal conversation. But don't have expectations that it'll work all at once, or if they go back and forth in their beliefs. Unlearning worldviews is hard work.
OP said coworker, which I think most people missed. If you're privileged enough to quit your job over a coworker's political opinion, more power to you, I guess. I think that's letting the fascists win, since you've literally ceded ground. But I believe OP is looking for constructive solutions to discuss politics with a coworker to preserve the relationship, likely both for their sanity at work and because there's other things about the person they like.
I wasn't advocating that a person should quit. But there's a far cry between the people I'm polite to because I see them at work everyday vs the people I'll invest emotional energy in, converse with about more than the day's weather. It's really hard that OP has emotionally invested in a person who listens to bad people. That divide--where OP wants to put attention and conversation--is what I was trying to highlight. Have rational, honest conversations--if it's safe to do so.
You gotta land somewhere on the spectrum of stupid-to-evil to be a Trump (or any of the new lumps of shit that have surfaced in Trump's wake) supporter, and no point on the spectrum meets the standard for the kind of person I'd invest the time and effort needed to build a friendship.
Discovering that a current friend is that stupid/evil would reveal I misjudged that person previously and spell the end of that relationship. I can't fix stupid, and I won't tolerate evil.
That would be a deal breaker. Someone who would vote for folk who want me dead is not a friend, and it's not something I would pretend not to hear.
It raises major questions about their ability to reason, absorb information, their morals and level of awareness about the world. And just personality. It's difficult for me to imagine how people listen to that guy lie and ramble while being a petty, vindictive self-absorbed prick to everyone around him, and think "Yeah! This is someone I'd put in charge".
I came to similar questions/conclusions talking to my coworker. It's disappointing because otherwise he's quite friendly and normal, but I'm realising perhaps that is just because I'm not the "wrong" type of person in their eyes. If he believes Trump would save the country, what else does he believe, right? And seriously, why?
It's a values thing.
Trump and those like him victimize my friends, are massive bigots, and the whole christofascist thing is just inherently fucked up.
Maybe there are Trump voters that aren't those things, but that just means they're fine with that shit
I wouldn't be friends with someone like that
If they loved any of my least favorite politicians, we'd probably not be friends for much longer - they're "least favorite" for a reason, after all. Also loving a political figure is completely bonkers. People who are infinitely less passionate than that will still have so strong beliefs you'll never really (be allowed to) challenge them.
People are hard to persuade with just facts and logic. That's even when politics aren't involved ruining whatever tiny chance there was in the first place. Basically, everybody thinking they'd go Full Diplomat and convert the guy is 100% bullshitting themselves.
Also don't fuck with politics at work. Managing idiots is a crucial skill in every job, being right is not the same as "winning" an argument, and even if you "win" there could be reprisals. It's not right, but that's the way the world is.
I would have 1 less friend.
Are you sure they're your friend and not just someone you have to work with?
Personally, I don't consider fascists my friends.
Since you're addressing me specifically, I consider them a 'friendly coworker'. I would happily move on when I stop working but day to day my interactions are pleasant. I considered titling as coworker, but I thought friend applied more generally and would encourage discussion.
Oh sure, I work with people who have said some pretty crazy shit but I'm not openly hostile to them or anything. I also have nothing to do with them outside of work and if they get too out of line I might still call them out at work.
... why exactly are they my friend if they're trying to murder my other friends? I don't get along too well with people who want to do that.
Who said anything about murder?
My least favorite politician wants to kill a lot of people.
My grandmother used to say: never talk about religion or politics with coworkers. Both topics get into personal beliefs that can make a professional relationship difficult.
For an actual friend, I would try to understand why they're into the politician. People have lots of reasons for why they vote.
My sister is a sweetheart who loves animals, nature, people, and has given so much of her time and money to take care of our mother.
She voted Trump and it seems like she would do it again. Why?
She's a fundamentalist evangelical Christian. You have to understand the Christian slant if you're setting out to understand Trump voters. It's not the only lens to see the MAGA phenomenon through, but it's a big one.
Why are those two tied together so tightly, even though it's glaringly obvious that Trump isn't a Christian himself and doesn't espouse their values? He gave them all the things they wanted. And he'll keep doing it.
You'll find plenty of other people backing Trump as well, and many will be total assholes and pond scum. The liberal tears crowd, the trolls. Probably the ones many commenting here are talking about. But I suspect these types are only the vocal minority and it's people like my sister who are a much more silent majority. They are beloved people in their communities, they are not the monsters you would make them out to be. It takes an open mind to understand their position. Make sure you're ready to explore and understand without judgement, or else you might as well just write them off and find something more productive to use your time with.
People's whose politics are fueled by hatred of others having rights are not good people, they just wear their good deeds as a "good people" costume.
We've listened, and yes they are monsters. Their entire purpose is to take away from others. That's not good people.
Think about what you just said in response to my story. You're so ready to tar and feather that you're willing to tell me that somehow you know the true intent of my sister better than her own brother.
In this cartoon of a world you live in, I hope someday you find room for nuance.
There's no need for tar and feathers, but it's good to know that's how you see anyone who disagrees.
The thought that we know someone better-especially someone we love- often clouds our judgement of them. We want them to be good people so we gloss over the terrible parts. That's ok, you keep defending your sister and the rest of us will keep knowing better, no tar and feathers necessary.
There's no nuance when it comes to Trump though.
You are simply wrong on all points here, with the exception of emotional clouding. There may be emotional clouding going on here, but it's not with me and my sister. It's with the left and Trump. It's causing people like you to speak with insane antisocial rhetoric, and it's what's driving people further apart.
So you can play the part of the stuck-up bitch, or you can open up to people and their complex lives and beliefs, and see that things aren't as simple as you are trying to make them out to be.
While I'm not orthodox, I'm well into the left wing of politics, and even I can see that Trump isn't all bad. Few people that ever lived are all bad.
I would argue that the problem is the blindness to the hatred. Just because someone did a good thing once doesn't mean they are a good person. People can be all bad and still do good things- like Trump. When the root of everything you try to accomplish is taking away from others then you are all bad,no matter how many good things you make your disguise out of.
That's not stuck up- that's reality.
Generally speaking people are a mix of bad and good- people who so wholeheartedly support Trump are not those people, sorry. You cannot base your beliefs on hatred and taking away rights and then use the same breath to say that you are also a good person, the grey area isn't that deep. You cannot vote for the suffering of people and then say that you are a good person too.
But that's exactly it, from another person's perspective he's not taking away anything, he's giving. This is what I'm trying to highlight here and all I'm getting are squawks about Trump is bad, my sister is bad. To some people Trump is restoring a desecrated country. They grew up their whole lives with a certain world view of good and evil, it's not their fault religion twisted their minds, this is the nuance I'm pleading you to take notice but all you can give me are limp platitudes that most people are good and bad, but Trump and his supporters are bad bad. Not very enlightening, because it doesn't say much about the real life people we're discussing.
Those people are not evil, though they may be doing evil. Just as you said, which means I expect you to acknowledge this point, "just because someone does good it does not make them good" works the other way around: just because someone does evil does not make them evil. This is why we need to find inroads with this group to create a space that can be shared peacefully by everyone. Calling them all bad and shutting down any effort to discuss only results in something even more horrifying, and frankly, evil: war.
Ah, so a different variety of monster then, gotcha
Exactly. Kind in the micro, monsters in the macro. If you're trying to raise money for the needy through the church but don't want the government to help them at scale you really just want glory for your god and safety just for your community over other communities. Helping people is just an accident in pursuit of those causes.
What? Even if you engaged in charity solely to "glorify God", why would welfare prevent you from doing that? Do you think welfare programs steal glory from God? Do you think that religious people think this way? (Outside of the literally mentally ill, no they don't. They view charity as a moral obligation, not the only mechanism by which to "glorify God". Just like any normal effective altruist).
"Just for your community over other communities"- Again, what? Improving the conditions of your community isn't harming other communities. People in other communities also have a responsibility to improve their community, and there is nothing preventing one community from helping another.
"Helping people is just an accident in pursuit of those causes"-If it was just an accident, then surely it would be avoided? Let's not forget that these causes are "glorifying God", and either harming or ignoring other communities.
It's okay to criticise trying to apply individualistic practices on a systemic scale, but you're just fabricating nonsense to try to justify how you already decided to feel.
You can't possibly understand how dumb you look having said that about someone you don't know to someone who knows very well. Get a life you bum.
👍
I'm sure your sister is a lovely person but how blind can she be after all that has happened? Is she voting for Trump or is she just brainlessly voting republican? And in either case, why? Where's her culpablity?
She really is, and the others who want to tar and feather any and all Trump voters could learn something knowing her.
But your hunch is likely correct. Christian fundamentalists do not vote Democrat. Democrats support choice, and in their frame of reference God already chose and we don't get a say. Abortion is a big one, despite there being nothing in the Bible to indicate a solid position on the matter.
Aside from the religious dogma, I doubt she spends any time on the internet or listening to political punditry. With less information to go by, she probably sees the hate as a part of the left's own orthodoxy and something that can be dismissed. As much as the left has going for it, there is some fierce orthodoxy and tone deafness that fuels the right wing's disdain and drives their dismissal of us.
Can you be culpable if you were not aware? I know that doesn't fly in matters of law but I think a person can be forgiven to an extent if they don't know the depths of a matter as well as others.
I can tell you love and respect your sister, which can sometimes be hard when you're ideologically opposites.
I do think you're excusing her a little too easily. Don't we all have a responsibility to be informed, especially about who we vote for?
Ideally, yes. Practically? Not going to happen. We can't expect it, we can only hope that's what people are doing.
This fact is why you hear some people say that not everyone should be allowed to vote. There is a staggering amount of ignorance in our society, that's just how it is.
It's easy to excuse people when you have love in your heart. This may be what's missing in our society.
If she did the latter, she isn't the former.
Then you don't know people well and I dare say you should put down the phone and try harder.
This low effort dunk just makes you look ignorant.
There's no 'dunk'. She voted against people, animals, and nature. Your sister is not a good person.
A friendly demeanor slapped over evil actions doesn't make the actions any less evil.
Giving her the benefit of the doubt, best case scenario is she's just stupid and was tricked by evil people into being a tool. Worst case, she understands what she's doing and is just openly evil.
In any case, you can't claim to love thy neighbor while actively advocating for burning their house down.
You are categorically wrong, and I'm trying to use this opportunity to shine a light on this part of you that is unable to see beyond what is black or white.
You cannot reduce a person down to good or evil based on how they voted. It's insane to think you can. It's insane to think you can tell me the truth about my sister.
This insanity is what the right sees when people like you talk, and it's what is driving the wedge further and further in-between what would otherwise be cooperative groups who want the same basic things in life, with key differences that require rational compromises.
Categorically speaking, as the saying goes: "If 9 people sit down at a table with 1 Nazi without protest, there are 10 Nazis at the table."
It's insane to think you can't. If you support evil, that makes you evil. The exception being the best case scenario mentioned previously of just being stupid. If you turn a blind eye to evil behavior from someone just because they're in your family, that's a weakness on YOUR part. Feel free to fix that if you have any respect for yourself or your sister, but good luck with that - I've seen the Trump brand of koolaid seep into a couple members of my own family, and it's a potent drug.
The right sees what they want to see. Hatred, superstition, and emotional contrarian nonsense are not worthy of compromise; take those away from the right wing and there's nothing left to compromise with. Saying that I'm driving a wedge between that vitriol and the rest of society is not the criticism you think it is.
The way you talk to strangers you don't know you absolutely deserve the vitriol. Drink up and nevermind how desperately confused you are.
I can assess only what you've told me, and what you've told me is that you support evil, but it's cool because you like animals and you've wrapped your hatred with religion.
If Christianity is actually important to you (or to your sister at least - you haven't indicated whether or not that's your cup of tea as well) and you want to understand it beyond blindly accepting what some asshole at an alter tells you, you might want to read up on the Pharisees - they did the same thing, and Jesus was appalled by them, just as he'd be appalled by you and your sister.
Your showmanship doesn't mean squat.
Nothing. I'd rather not discuss it. I'm not looking to change their mind and I'm not looking to change mine.
Nothing. I say nothing.
If it's just a politician I don't like, it would be a good opportunity to talk about it and maybe one/both of us can learn something new. I usually trust that I'm friends with someone for a reason, and while we might not change our minds, it would be a good chance to learn about priorities / needs / ideas.
If it's my LEAST FAVOURITE, then we might not be as compatible as I thought.
The best answer I think I can come up with is: Oh, wow, I liked you, but if you want me dead I think you must not really be a good person after all.
You're not going to change their mind, so the best you can do is make them feel guilty for supporting someone who whishes harm on so many groups he'll not even know which of those groups you are (and you might not be in any of those groups, he doesn't need to know).
The politicians that I hate would like me dead or completely mentally subjugated/repressed (I'm trans, autistic, and part of some other groups, also not exactly rolling in cash 😄 ^.^). If I found out one of my friends supported someone like that they would cease being a friend, to put it mildly.
Most of my friends are also trans or have other reasons that fascists would treat them similarly to how they would me, so it's extremely unlikely they would support those types :)
My least favorite politicians literally want me to not exist. They want me erased, exterminated, gone. It's extraordinarily unlikely for me to end up friends with someone who would vote for that sort of person to begin with. Given my volitile political position, this question just feels goofy to me. People I consider friends are a rarefied order, a small and select group. I would be shaken to my core to find out that one of them felt this way. It would destroy my sense of reality and grasp of the world. I'd wonder if I was schizophrenic. But I really don't think that's going to happen. People aren't my friends if they don't support my rights, nevertheless my existence.
The privilege it is to even ask this question is extremely telling. I don't mean that as a slight to OP, but it is worth noting that we are in a place where, for a non-insignificant amount of people, this isn't even remotely a possibility because one group has made their existence criminal.
Right? Like, I guess if one of my few friends got a serious brain injury and become a totally different, terrible person, I'd sob for hours, maybe days, mourning the person I lost. But that's the caliber of life event it would take. None of these people are going to get a new job or new partner and become a murderous bigot. Often this sort of change in a person is predicated by something personal, someone in their life from the relevant group hurts them. But I'm the truama informed friend that everyone comes to when fucked up things happen. If someone deeply and personally hurt one of my friends to the point that it could change them as a person, they'd be on my couch, smoking my weed, processing with me.
Sometimes your friends change for the worse and you find yourself in such a situation.
I just really don't see any of the small group of gay women and stoners in my life turning against me like that. It would literally be a shift from friends to voting for my death. My least favorite politicians don't just believe things I disagree with. They may not be able to say it publicly, but they want me dead. Even if we were no longer friends, I don't think anyone in my small circle would vote for anyone to be systematically eliminated. Hell, many of them would themselves be in the sights of the same politicians. My best friend would probably be the other type of girlfriend to me if she wasn't in a long term relationship when we met.
As someone who tries to rationalize and come up with arguments for multiple family members who would vote for Trump even if I would consider them quite smart from day to day, I will tell you that having convincing arguments won't get you far.
There is some fundamental differences in thinking between myself and conservatives. For example: Someone must lose in another for another to win.
The thinking is so black and white and simplistic most of the time. They use Econ 101 to prove their theories, pretending that's how the world works and refuse to listen to any realistic nuance.
When you point out a contradiction, they say, "Oh, that's an outlier" "Oh, I'll look into it" "Oh, let's move onto something else". I don't discuss it much anymore, but I try really hard to listen and make arguments that acknowledge their beliefs while presenting my own.
If you can keep level-headed, other more progressive relatives of mine have recommended/gifted readings that might be able to broaden the horizons of conservatives.
The irony in saying that literally everyone who voted for a certain party has “black and white and simplistic” thinking…
Thanks for ending the quote directly before I say "most of the time". I do think trends exist, but I do my best to qualify what I say, because oftentimes in the real world it's not all or nothing.
Maybe he edited, but he said a particular mindset is black and white. And it is. If you want to apply that to all conservative voters, that's on you
If they're already your friend, then you obviously like each other enough to have gotten along for however long it's been without talking about politics. This to me indicates that probably neither of you feels strongly enough about politics to have it be an issue unless one of you starts pressing it. I acknowledge that I may be oversimplifying your question.
If it's in my country: "Huh, okay"
If it's in the US: "What the fuck is wrong with you".
These comments make me feel a lot better about the friends I've lost to Trumpism. I don't understand how people I know can just overlook that.
If it was simply a difference of political opinion and they supported some run of the mill politician who's shit but not like fascist level shit then it wouldn't be relationship ending. Politicians are mostly fucked and not worth losing relationships over.
If it was an overt piece of shit fascist then that would be a different story. Usually people who support fascists become quite radicalised. Shit is culty af. And if this friend did not have a problem with overt prejudice and genocidal attitudes then that would be relationship ending for me.
I cannot be friends with DeSantis supporters. Even moreso since I live in a major city in a US state where, despite being a swing state, DeSantis' ideas have proven a losing position (Doug Mastriano pledged to make PA "the Florida of the North." That's how the Democratic nominee won that year.)
I hate to point it out to you, but you most likely are friends with a DeSantis supporter or two. People are very much willing to lie about or omit who they vote for in order to maintain social relationships, and if you could look into others personal thoughts, you'd probably be very surprised to find out who of your friends are.
When politics are cut out of the equation, you'll find you can be friends with DeSantis supporters, just as long as you're kept in the dark.
I would ask why. Is the reason personal? Moral? Based on their achievements? I'll put it this way. I was watching this story (not the first time it was brought up) which takes place in a town that really loved Mussolini. That much didn't bother me, it's circumstantial and it happens, it was how they expressed it that set me off, by setting out to lethally betray the one person in town who was a critic of Mussolini by killing his family. Technically I'd argue they're indirect victims of the Nazi Italy death toll. If someone has no problem with me, I don't feel as averse, but this is rarely the case anyways.
I tell them exactly what I think
I personally would say: "interesting, Why's that?" And listen to what they have to say about it.
I ask myself the following: "does this person treat me well? Do they treat others well?" If yes is the answer to both questions, then I just move on. Who cares if they would vote a different way than you in an election they can't vote in anyway?
"You're a fucking Nazi" probably
"Let's not talk politics any more. What game are you playing at the moment?"
at this point I simply refer to them as "cooked" and refuse to further engage until they stop blindly reading cooker shit and rejoin reality, then we will talk.
literally told my mum that today and no regrets. no more pussyfooting around extremists
I also have a coworker who supports trump and is Canadian. To be fair to you, we are simply coworkers and that boundary will remain solidly in place so long as we're working together.
No point debating it. No one ever changed their mind from an argument.
I don't have any friends that like Trump. Anyone that's OK with the racism and fascism isn't someone that I care to be friends with.
That you think this is true says more about you than people in general.
Unfortunately depending on the level of extremism they have a point. When you can't even agree on what's reality and what isn't, it's pretty hard to change someone's mind.
I originally heard this quote about using the Internet but the general sentiment applies to any extremist politics as well.
Extremists don't talk about politics to change their viewpoints, they do it to rant and convince others (IMO)
(At least this is often the case for US extremism, not sure about elsewhere)
OK you changed my mind
Depends on the politician. Extremist politicians like Trump are a no-go. Those supporters can't be convinced as they already believe fairytales. I'd say have fun, you do you, I'm out. This is the biggest problem with 2 party systems, you only get to choose between bad options.
Here we have multiple parties (to many for some) and you can vote for a party with you agree most instead for the one you disagree least with. When somebody wants to vote for a party you don't agree with, you ask why, as we have (almost) no 1 issue parties and most party programs are pretty consistent on the usual issues and programs overlap a lot. When they say they vote for party x because of point 1, when not to extremist (immigration, killing off fossil dependencies no matter the costs, unlimited market,...) there will be at least 1 other party with the same view but less 'colleteral damage'.
On the other hand, extremist views, especially in a multi party environment are limited to a minority, so will never get to power. Other, valid, views are adapted by other parties, so people aren't limited to the extremist.
You mean ex-friend?
Never contact me again.
There's a good reason that civilised people never discuss politics or religion
Edit - And only idiots take everything fuckin literally jesus fuck 😅
I feel that avoiding confrontation and letting trash views flourish has led to major problems in our societies.
And I feel the opposite, so that's the end of that conversation.
Oo I like your shoes, are they new?
Do you have friends or do you just have conversation partners
I don't understand how you can have relationships if you don't ever discuss your world view.
You can act like a cult member and stop talking to them, or you can realize what's important in life, real human connection, and just agree to disagree. As long as you guys aren't going to call each other names, talk about it. But don't go into it with the aim of convincing, go into it with the aim of learning. If both of you do this, you'll come to clearer conclusions.
If you can't argue against him, have you considered that he may have been correct after all?
Lol, maybe he just isn't good in on the spot confrontation? Not everyone is prepared to counter an encyclopedia of bullshit that someone picked up from talk radio
Not in today's dunk culture
snerk
If you can't change somebody, you're better off changing yourself <3
That might be the worst thing I've ever heard.
Not if you read his other comment
Unconflicted block.
You leave them