Is there a Linux based OS for public computers, such as at a library or a PC cafe?
Title. Mainly asking for the library side, but PC cafe is also interesting to ask about.
Mainly since Windows 11 is 64-bit only, and it seems Windows 12 is going to subscription based on top of that, neither of which public libraries can afford tossing out computers and paying more in subscription fees than they make with overdue books.
My local library is only open for 2 days a week, due to a lack of funds for hiring more staff in the area. They use older Dell all in ones, and that just makes me think if they don't have the money for being open 5 days a week, they don't have the money to buy 4 new computers for the space.
Not even getting into the bigger libraries part of that system or the ones nearby. Some have 8 computers in groups, with 4 stations of groups.
So I was just wondering, if anyone has started or is aware of a Library/Public Computer focused linux-based OS? Perhaps one that allows immutable systems, and the library card system backed most use to enable end user access. Perhaps that's a config file tucked away somewhere.
And I guess the PC cafe OS is interesting, simply due to the fact that Linux gaming has been making huge strides, and PC cafes are still popular in Japan, Korea, and China.
EDIT: I am not in control or assistance to the library, just looking if there's a potential solution to libraries like mine. If I could give links to a library computer manager, or if I could give upstream bug reports to people making such software.
Work with informationsecurity and GDPR. And know as a fact that many danish municipalities which administrate the libraries are using, and are happy with, Linux as public facing citizen PC's in libraries.
They use OS2borgerPC, which translates to OS2citizenPC which is maintained and supported by the danish company Magenta. But it's open source, so if you are in another country you could just use it - or better, give Magenta a call. They're great and very reseaonable.
Magenta: https://www.magenta.dk/en/ OS2borgerPC on github: https://github.com/OS2borgerPC
OS2🍔PC
Borgir
That is very cool
So, just to be clear, there's no actual relation to OS/2?
Good question, but no 🙂
OS2 is a organization which coordinate software development for the participating municipalities and companies which sign up for delivering FOSS. I think OS2 stand for Open Source Software, but not sure.
More about OS2 here: https://www.os2.eu/in-english
Hey I live in Denmark! How unexpected it is to hear Linux runs in some municipalities: in my sector you only hear of Microsoft running on most of the public infra but my knowledge is limited to Copenhagen.
Honestly I'd
That's it. This way one can still let the OS do it's updates but the user experience is consistent.
I am no expert. But I think there is an 'easier' way too manage this with an overlay filesystem.
Have an immutable base with all permissions set. When a session is started have it be done in an in-memory overlay. On logout drop the overlay.
This might be easier if you don't want to rely on cronjobs. But as I have no experience myself setting this up... 'easier' should be taken with a grain of salt. I just took inspiration from docker.
True keeping it all in memory, especially as it would be of limited size, could be a good solution. That being said a single script and cron job is rather "easy" IMHO.
You are correct. I just have a coworker that has ingrained the philosophy in me to always look for a way to put it in configuration, and not in a script that you have to maintain.
I don't always agree with that. And I find your solution as valid as mine. It is always a matter of taste and trust. In this case in the script, or the fsdriver. That's why I always quote the "easier" when comparing solutions to Linux problems.
This is how we used to do it before we had NixOS with impermanence mode. https://nixos.wiki/wiki/Impermanence
Probably a cleaner way indeed but again mindful about how familiar people who can help the library are with NixOS vs Ubuntu/Debian.
All it takes is one person to share a complete config and I’d assert that it’s actually easier than Ubuntu/Debian to setup (especially if you’re talking about deploying a fleet of identical configurations or even a config that lives on a liveISO meant for installing the OS with these options baked-in).
Granted it’s not there yet and you’re correct but soon: One-click deployment would make it even easier than Debian/Ubuntu.
Also, IMO Nix is a force-multiplier. For example, I alone could probably configure a whole fleet of systems declaratively with Nix AT LEAST as well as a config script repo that has 20 people contributing to it since, in Nix, if it builds, it’s pretty much ready for production.
The fact alone that Nix allows you to simply list the software you want on the computer and it takes care of everything else (rather than a long, error prone sudo apt-get install command list that may or may not install because dependencies aren’t locked) would cause me to select Nix every single time.
I’m just kind of bewildered how anyone can argue against Nix by invoking a method of Linux install where you sudo apt get 400 commands in a precise order (and if you accidentally go out of order, you might screw up your system) and you also have to carefully manage dependencies and will be SOL if one piece of software requires one version of python while another requires an entirely different version.
Maybe I'm misrepresenting the labor market and the availability of professionals working with Nix. That's also why I mentioned Ubuntu/Debian not on the basis of technical merit but "just" popularity. Now if you are suggesting that they could hire somebody working with Nix just as easily for that task, sure they could go for it.
You may want something like https://porteus-kiosk.org/
As a librarian this is an awesome idea but unlikely to work out long term for a couple of reasons relating to the libraries.
Patrons will absolutely freak out if the computer they sit down at doesn't look like the Windows machine they are expecting. Even the time-keeping software we use makes people uncomfortable and it's just a countdown clock for the 30 minutes they signed up for. I've had a very expensive Mac desktop for art and music software go totally unused for years because most patrons want a Windows computer to check their Hotmail. Librarian sobs
Unless the library 'technologist" or IT team is already really into Linux in their off time AND paid well enough to bring that experience with them to the office, the people tasked with keeping it running will fail within 6 months and revert it back to something they can fix fast. Generally there's one IT department that's handing the libraries and other government run service offices and they will not take the time to do anything out of the ordinary.
Maybe for a subset of computers in a large library like the stand-up quick access stations or catalog lookup computers near the books. Linux can and does a lot of good keeping these one-use stations going despite the fact the run on 1998 Dell Potatoes.
In my experience as soon as they get a web browser, people don't care. Most people are lost when they have to deal with the file manager on Windows anyway...
Problem is people are really sensitive to change
We see it as "oh just open the browser and it's the same" they see a foreign system, different icons, UI elements, etc and panic
We've got the biased viewpoint of people who know computers well enough not to be afraid of breaking something by clicking the wrong button
I imagine if you put a windows skin on KDE or something to make everything look the same they wouldn't even notice though
My experience with "real" people is that they don't even see the difference. Only so-called "Windows power users" are annoyed.
I got my mother a Chromebook and she used it for years, even tried to explain her it was not the same as her previous Windows PC she never understood it was not the same.
I strongly disagree with your first point. Kids these days are more familiar with ChromeOS than Windows. Google has proven that as long as it has Chrome and a taskbar at the bottom people will be fine with it.
For long term support I also disagree with #2. The company I work for develops software that goes into both windows and Linux environments. The Windows environments are several orders of magnitude harder to secure and maintain because you never know what bullshit Microsoft is going to pull with their updates.
It may be easier to find a Windows IT person to maintain the system but it's going to be significantly more expensive and significantly less reliable than an immutable OS like Fedora silverblue.
The vast majority of computer users at my libraries have been adults over 50. The kids in my areas use the Chrome OS Computers they are getting from the schools.
If we had a lot of under 25s coming in to use the public PCs, I agree that Chrome OS would be a good pick.
I live in a large metropolitan area in the US and my kids have never used ChromeOS. Our school district issues iPads for elementary school and middle school and beyond receive Windows laptops. Our public library is 100% Windows with the exception of the makerspace which has a few imacs scattered around. Their Windows computers re-image themselves after every use so securing them is really not much of an issue.
To your first point, a huge portion of the use library computers get is from people who don’t own or can’t afford their own computer but just need to print government/work/school docs with some minimal document editor. Sure you could run with LibreOffice or something and hope no one cares, but you’re right that most people would freak out if they can’t open something in Word or have to learn how to print something in Gnome/KDE/whatever.
Most of them are following instructions they are getting from elsewhere to do those tasks and most instructions the offices are giving out are expecting a Windows computer. I still have a lot of users looking for the Blue E. headdesk
Library computers never used to look like windows. They were terminals into a larger system that allowed people to look up information, and the UI was just simplified to just that. People coped fine.
I'm pretty sure you don't say "anything goes" on library computers, so they are going to have some kind of restricted interface already. As long as that is navigable to the things that are allowed, people will cope.
By "never used to", when are you talking about? I think the last time I saw a terminal catalog in the way you're describing was 1995.
Pretty much every thing after that was a modified Windows install of one flavor or another with an intranet or web catalog interface for the user.
I'll buy that they were kept longer in some.places than othern but where and when are you pointing to?
Yes, I'm probably talking 20 years ago, but well into the era of windows being the dominant home operating system and the internet being a thing. As long as people can see an icon and double click it to get a web browser, they're happy.
Sorry, but definitely not true.
Source: See my comment regarding the majority of danish municipalities using Linux. No problem for the users or the people doing the sysadmin work.
While I love Linux and free choice in OS, it's painful that this needs to be said, and painful that it's being attacked so harshly. Having watched people have meltdowns in university libraries after having to use OSX instead of the already taken PC's, people will likely lose their shit. Hell, they lose their shit over stupid things like start menus being on the top of the screen or Firefox instead of Chrome...
On your second point, I'm sure there is an argument towards free Linux education for a specific sector where Linux has a genuine benefit. The problem as I see it is libraries are often council/government run, and you'd basically need to petition at that point to say "you will pay X for Windows, use Y, which supports all of your old, clunky hardware, with free training on us, and you'll save Y".
Of course, this all involves having a distro that'll easily solve driver issues for 20+ year old printers and fax machines, with support for the shitty web interface libraries use that require IE7 or it flips out, and great support if something does go wrong...all while ensuring that Microsoft won't just give out cheap subscriptions to keep libraries on their tab.
Absolutely agreed. Something facing the public like this is supposed to be comfortable and familiar first and foremost. Works like a charm if you know what you're doing but we're not able to expect that from the general library computer owners.......
Depends on what you want. Search for "Gnome Cafe" for example.
There is an article about Fedora Silverblue as a Kiosk. Silverblue should be configured with weekly automatic updates, every half a year, waiting 3 weeks or so, it has to be updated (this could be automated too).
The only thing is the actualy library software. It can run on a server that is accessed through a website in Firefox fullscreen for example. Gnome has a a special kiosk compositor for that.
Tried to look up GNOME cafe but couldn't find anything
I find the idea of going to not only an internet café, stereoscopically very nerdy and niche places, but an internet café with only Linux machines amusing
NixOS is immutable and highly reproducible, with the ability to rebuild identical systems with a declarative configuration file--including installed packages.
So in the case of multiple public computers, you would only need to create/maintain one configuration file that defines all of the user profiles, permissions, restrictions, settings, software packages, you name it.
It would without a doubt be what i'd choose for a fleet of public library computers. Extremely reliable and easy to setup to prevent tampering or misuse.
I wouldn't. Relying on a cookie-cutter distro like NixOS is a recipe for disaster in the long run, IMO. I mean, sure, you could set it all up exactly how you want, but the next person coming in to replace you may not be familiar with NixOS. And there's no guarantee you'd be around to train them - in my circles we call this the "getting run over by the bus" problem. More importantly, organisations need to be able to get reliable support - support from an actual organization they can count on, when shit hits the fan.
Choose an industry standard, well-supported distro like Debian/Fedora/OpenSUSE (or immutable variants like Fedora Silverblue/openSUSE MicroOS) deploy it using Kickstart/Preseed/Cobbler, and configure/maintain it using Ansible. If you've got large number of users to manage, use a centralized user/identity management system like FreeIPA or JumpCloid.
Don't go for cookie-cutter distros unless you want to be their IT person forever.
What does "cookie-cutter" mean in this context?
It means DIY/hobbyist/niche.
If the config file is well documented, you don't need to worry too much about that bus. And it isn't several user accounts, it's a computer that needs to be accessible to nearly everybody. Like said in other comments, a script to destroy everything on logout, and then add a configuration to logout on idle.
That's not the point though, the point is about support.
The main issue is with cookie cutter distros like this is, things break, and when that happens, getting support can be a PITA. In fact I experienced this myself on more than a couple of occasions. Most recently, I ran a
nix-channel --updatewhich then brokenixos-rebuild switch. I couldn't figure it out, asked online and they said nothing was wrong with my config, so I ended up restoring to a previous snapshot. This was just a VM btw so not a big deal, but I'd never run NixOS as my main, never mind putting it on user-facing machines in a public organization.The library won't be able to find someone to support a random OS like "NixOS". Just imagine putting out a job advert for that. Actually, they probably won't be hiring a dedicated IT person in the first place, so they'll reach out to some MSP and it's highly unlikely they'll be able to find some company willing to support it.
Just because you're good and familiar with some obscure piece of technology doesn't mean that it's the right choice for an organization - because that's how you build up technical debt. This sort of stuff happens all the time, I work for a MSP and often come across some adhoc DIY thing built by some random employee who left the company ages ago and now no one knows how it works, so they never maintained the thing and everyone's scared to touch it lest it breaks something.
I agree that this is a good choice. But I doubt library staff will have the technical background to set this up. But if some local volunteer could do it, it would be a good option.
@queue
nixos with the surf display manager https://search.nixos.org/options?channel=23.05&show=services.xserver.desktopManager.surf-display.enable&from=0&size=50&sort=relevance&type=packages&query=surf
and you should be set. Depends of course on whether you want them to be able to run programs and stuff...
People couldn't tamper with it even if they wanted to. Like literally how do I tamper with it??
-sincerely, trying to learn NixOS
If Windows 12 becomes subscription-based, Google and Apple will be laughing all the way to the bank.
If it becomes subscription only, I wouldn't be surprised if the OEM pays for it for at least a few years (as in included in the price)
They wouldn't want to go out of business.
And Microsofts main consumer which is enterprises wouldn't really be affected since Windows is already a subscription for many of them in the form of M365 (for example, it's included in E3)
And I doubt Apple would make much more money since their OS is so different and locked down compared to Windows. If Apple started to sell a license for whatever computer then yeah that could happen, but they won't.
ChromeOS is free but their office suite isn't really comparable to MS.
You have to understand that the bulk of computer buyers aren't really that computer literate. As someone who worked 4 years in IT, I'll tell you that the average computer user doesn't even know how to install a graphics card driver, let alone do any other stuff. If given the choice between even $5 a month or learning to use a Mac or a Chromebook, people will learn to use a Mac or a Chromebook. Linux isn't even a consideration.
The vast majority of people are perfectly happy with Google Docs/Slides/Sheets for daily personal use. If the choice comes down to using the Google office suite or paying a subscription, people tend to avoid paying. I know ZERO people who subscribe to Office 365 for personal use (besides those tricked into it). They either pay for the one-off license, pirate if they know how, use copies paid for by their work, or use alternatives.
People don't care that ChromeOS and MacOS are locked down. They don't do anything that requires the "unlocked" operating system and you can bet your ass that if Microsoft starts charging a subscription fee, Apple and Google's marketing teams will jump so hard on that it'll crack the pavement.
My main points were about Microsofts biggest customers, aka enterprises which is why I said that, and mentioned office at all.
I highly doubt normal windows will ever charge a subscription fee. I won't consider it until microsoft removes the popular ways to get office and windows free from GitHub (a service they own) and they haven't yet, after many years.
Microsoft doesn't really care that much about personal usage.
You're right that Microsoft's main source of income is enterprise customers. But at the same time, I strongly believe that IT departments worldwide would start to seriously consider what tasks they really need Windows or Microsoft Office for and start considering giving as many employees as possible Macs or Chromebooks or even Linux systems. An additional $5 a month multiplied by a thousand systems is $60,000 p.a. I do see IT directors trying to minimise the number of Windows licenses wherever possible in that case. Does the receptionist really need Windows when the scheduling software is cloud-based? Can we replace it with a Chromebook? Is it finally worth it to give the designers the Macs they've been clamouring for? And the big one—do we really need Active Directory specifically now that everyone's got a Mac or a Chromebook? These are questions that have to be answered by IT departments worldwide and every time they're answered in the affirmative, it costs Microsoft another customer. Not everyone will switch, but the impact will still be non-negligible, and people will also think twice before getting Microsoft systems in the future.
I think you're right. Microsoft isn't stupid enough to try this.
Windows is already a subscription for many companies through microsoft 365.
And per user license for acceasing server
I'm pretty sure user CALS are also included in at least the more popular 365 subscriptions like E3
I don't know all the detaila, I just know the comanpanies we serve complain of inhouse windows server needing per user account license for using OS amd accessing server. MS is a subscriptiom via yearly license fees
That's true and if Microsoft decrees "Windows is included at no charge with a Microsoft 365 license", I would think that's many times more palatable.
Windows 12 is not going to a subscription model, stop repeating this obvious bullshit. The original article was debunked yet dumbasses keep spouting it.
Imagine trying to sell a computer to some old lady with a subscription OS:
Salesperson proceeds to recommend a Chromebook or a Mac.
The technically-savvy would look for Windows 11 machines, those who could and know how would install Linux, others will buy a Chromebook or a Mac, and only the truly stupid would pay the subscription.
So most people will pay the subscription.
I know the Danish OS2 foundation maintains a distro explicitly for Public computers in libraries.
When searching, I see a lot the OS2-based Danish library websites, but can't find their own website. Can you provide a link or more info on this distro?
https://www.os2.eu/os2borgerpc
I don't know if something like this exists, but I think the right solution for you would be something that my school did with our computers. They had installed Mint on it, but it was configured in a way, that when you rebooted the whole user profile would be resetted.
Windows has had this for literally decades, too. You have to use a 3rd party software, but it exists and is easy to use.
I get what you say that they can't afford to be tossing out old equipment ... But there hasn't been a x86 based 32bit PC made in over 20 years. Are you really trying to find an OS for systems that old or is this just a thought experiment?
I'm not sure it was quite 20 years (I'm sure there were 32 bit Atoms still on the market into the late 2000s), but I agree with the sentiment. You can get a really pretty decent refurbished PC for under ÂŁ50, and a lot of offices will literally give away old computers to good causes for free when they upgrade their estate. There's really basically no reason that any organisation with literally any resources at all should still be on 32 bit computing.
I forgot about Atoms. I was going by "desktop" CPUs, of which the last Pentium 4 was released in 2002.
The last 32bit Atoms were from 2011, so still pretty outdated and wouldn't really be usable for a daily use machine.
I'm generally not a fan of endless os (very locked down), but this might be a good low-maintenance option for libraries.
Endless comes out of the box with offline educational materials and learning apps.
Flatpak based distribution.
My local bike coop used to run mint. Something similar-ish to Windows should be fine, as would something very user friendly like pop or ubuntu. The biggest thing is going to be teaching all your librarians how to do basic tasks in it so they can answer questions like “why can’t I open word”, “where’s the internet”, “how do I print”, and “why did you change your computers to something nobody knows how to use”
ChromeOS Flex is an interesting choice for kiosks. There's a great case study from Nordic Choice Hotels: https://cloud.google.com/blog/products/chrome-enterprise/nordic-choice-hotels-bounces-back-ransomware-attack-chromeos-flex.
Being a Google product, I don't expect it to have a long life span
Anything would work; people don’t
There are people that think Linux is all terminal based and refuse to use it because of that
I'm not going to lie but I've been playing around with a VDI setup for internet cafes. Let's you use servers that places are liquidating in the back, but cheaper thinclient/zero client at the actual desks. Also helps reduce user damage and theft where that is a concern (can't tell you how many IT tickets I've worked because of people kicking cables).
The nice thing is it means you can in real time load new OSs, so you could have them all default to the Linux distro and only have a few windows licenses and a button to switch on the Linux desktop, in case people NEED windows for something (could even do this with Apple stuff, but the complexity sky rockets to me).
I'm not sure of exactly how they manage everything, but my county library system uses Debian with an XFCE interface.
Not sure if it's because it's been this way long enough now, or it just looks close enough to Windows, but I haven't known anyone to complain (and my in-laws complain about everything else)
That's really cool, I'm just curious but where do you live?
Are you in control of the library, or is this just as a recommendation?
Not in control, just curious if I could give assistance to my local library.
I've used Webconverger previously to setup public facing kiosks with a browser hardcoded to a book-search address as the home page. Quite robust and most users could not break or break out of the browser environment.
Webconverger seems to be EOL this year though. RIP and thanks.
Search for 'linux kiosk' to find other options. (Seems like Porteus is the go-to these days)
The public library in my city uses OpenSuse
I don't know if there's a distro made specifically with libraries in mind, but I would lean toward the Cinnamon DE because it's the easiest to fool people into thinking it's Windows out of the box.
The main issue would be folks coming in to use MS Office. LibreOffice compatibility with MS office's formats isn't perfect and sometimes it'll mangle formatting.
To summarise: use a terminal server system if you can, using a desktop for the end user that can be made to behave like windows (or another concept that works for your demography), and have the whole setup in a NixOS configuration that you manage in git.
I see that https://github.com/ltsp/ltsp is still going strong.
You people jump on wild rumors like crazy. Windows isn't going to be subscription based on 12.
Boosting so I can revisit this comment in a couple years.
There have been rumors that Windows is going to become a subscription software for over 10 years. I remember it when Windows 8 was in development.
Neat.
They've been switching all their software to subscription based, it's coming for windows too, it's less a question of if but rather of when. I'm sure there'll be a "free" edition though, with more ads and whatever else they can think of. Enshittification doesn't stop.
I hope you're right but seeing as every major part of Microsoft that used to be a one time purchase is now subscription based, I dont hold my breath on it.
Mark my words.
Nah, I am doubtful. They're trying to hang on to OS market share with both hands while iPadOS and Mac OS are creeping in on their personal computing dominance and ChromeOS eats their lunch in education and is taking a run at enterprise as kids who grew up using Chromebooks at school are graduating.
If Windows goes subscription, they lose enterprise, and that means they can't sell any of their other products. More likely, that subscription thing was about subscribing to AI stuff that'll be baked in to Win12.
They need the platform to sell everything else.
I believe you want to look into libki. Works on Windows and Linux.
Linux Mint with this serves our local library.
Puppy Linux and easyos have those options... It's been a bit since I've used them tho..
They could do a thin client type of deal and just virtual desktops that get deleted at the end of the session. If they are on 32bit hardware that really limits options on operating systems but a single backend computer hosting virtual desktops can be a donated 64bit PC/Server.
The sad part is it seems that there isn't much of any thin client solutions that don't require a gigantic licensing fee that negates the savings of doing the thin clients
Also from my experience working helpdesk at an organization that was all thin clients, they're a pain to support because if anything happens the first thing people try to do is reboot it which tends to cause orphaned sessions on the server. For the public computers at the library that would matter less since very few people would need their profile that got disconnected, but it's still extra friction
My local library uses thin clients with virtual desktops but I have a feeling the library system here is funded much better than the OP's library.
Yeah we only have a few decades of software to choose 32bit stuff from.
Software is fine but OS wise there are lots less than there was 5 years ago and it only going to get smaller but at least there Debian.
Does it need more then a webbrowser and a rfid card reader? I dont know how those library backend systen work but most systems save data in a plain ol database.
I don’t see a reason why they cant already use a limux based OS except that someone will need an employee or volunteer to set it all up and support.
For those saying NixOS has no commercial support, there is: https://nixos.org/community/commercial-support
I don't imagine there'd be a specific distro but you could absolutely lock a Linux machine down to be usable as a kiosk
Real question would be why though, a computer is a computer to the majority of people and you can always just bring your own laptop if you want Linux for yourself
For many people the library computer is the only computer they have access to.
Windows lincenses also cost money so if they can get an OS working for free that is probably going to be a massive plus.
I don't think Linux would be cheaper in the long run in that scenario, most young people could fix common problems with a windows machine whereas Linux needs someone with Linux experience
I also think people without access to their own computer are probably not worried about the operating system it's running as long as they have a functional system, unless they are trying to learn how Linux works but they wouldn't be able to do that with a locked down public computer anyway
Libraries are not companies, they don’t need to make a profit. They are supported by taxes. The computers they have are old because they work perfectly fine.
They probably don’t pay for licensing, and the cost to maintain non-windows OS would be more due to having to hire people with that skill set.
This...didn't answer any of the questions and missed the point of the post.
Libraries do pay for licensing of all MS software, as well as many other databases.
And any IT person working in a library usually is managing a Unix server so Linux is not something they are unfamiliar with, they even use linux servers.
Until they're no longer secure, because Windows stops supporting them with security updates.
Based on what? They aren't magically exempt because they're a library. Licensing costs are a huge part of a library's expenses.