Tlaib refuses to apologize for blaming Israel for Gaza hospital blast, attacks Biden
abcnews.go.com
Democratic Rep. Rashida Tlaib refused to apologize Wednesday for saying on Tuesday that Israel is to blame for the hospital explosion that day in Gaza, an accusation that sparked political backlash against her from Republicans as Israel denies fault.
Tlaib joined thousands of protesters calling for a ceasefire in Gaza during a solidarity rally hosted by the left-leaning group Jewish Voice for Peace at the National Mall. She was visibly emotional, at times pausing her speech to openly weep and criticizing lawmakers who have not backed a ceasefire resolution.
I think it's fair criticism . At the very least walk back and reserve judgement until there's more conclusive evidence. But I think until there's better evidence, there should be more respect given to the US intelligence community. It was not long ago trump was criticized for accepting foreign intelligence over the US intelligence community. I think it's fair to criticize tlaib for this as well.
And the thing is, the blame of who bombed the hospital isn't critical to advocating for peace, criticizing unproportial Israeli response, or other pro Palestine messaging.
Here is the available evidence: https://www.npr.org/2023/10/18/1206795861/heres-the-available-evidence-of-what-happened-at-al-ahli-arab-hospital-in-gaza
This is the best I've read on the subject
I like that they claim it wasn't Israeli because of the lack of shrapnel damage to the buildings... directly under a picture of someone inspecting shrapnel damage on one of the buildings.
That's a difference between your understanding and the author - the level of shrapnel damage from an air detonated bomb would be an order of magnitude higher than shown from the hospital explosion, but that doesn't mean no shrapnel is produced by a rocket explosion or cars cooking off.
If your munition is designed to explode above the ground its designed to spread a hail of shrapnel in the detonation zone. There are plenty of pictures from ukraine showing the effects of these munitions, it turns the area into a cheese grater.
Lack of crater and a large fire are hallmarks of a conflagration vs an explosion.
The US intelligence community isn't an objective organization with a mission to inform US citizens of what's really going on in the world. Anything they release is at the direction of political actors and intended to cause some effect. They can be good at their jobs and their released information is still inherently untrustworthy.
So what is the unbiased source that investigated this faster than the US Intelligence community that was not directly involved in the current conflict?
Yes, there are blemishes on the US Intelligence's history. But a US Politician should have a little more deference you the US Intelligence Community.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/18/gaza-hospital-explosion-missile-palestine/
OSINT analysis. Independent analysts using public data very quickly determined that Israel was not to blame.
It doesn't matter if the US Intelligence community is faster, they're still not trustworthy. Within the government, hopefully intelligence is just a confidential useful tool to inform government officials, but press releases are political actions.
And frankly, US politicians (outside of the president) shouldn't be overly trusting of the intelligence community. They're heavily influenced by the executive's wants and were (under pressure) a key player in justifying the war in Iraq. That's not a small blemish, and I'm not aware of any changes that would make that impossible in the aftermath.
So you choose to trust Hamas instead.
How about this? https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/18/gaza-hospital-explosion-missile-palestine
Okay, but there's no evidence here either. Just geolocation of the video which doesn't even suggest who is responsible. And some vague comments about the explosion not matching any Israeli weapon. Which is dubious to say the least, especially as the people involved specifically say they don't actually know what happened.
No, that's stupid and you haven't been reading the conversation thread.
It feels like she is too close to this, and is expressing her passion instead of allowing evidence to be presented. It's gonna look real bad if things don't pan out her way, and she's the one supporting terrorism.
How would she be supporting terrorism?, she's one of the few in Congress calling for a ceasefire and an end to the violence. Even if she's wrong and islamic jihad were responsible that doesn't mean she accidentally supported them. She said the bombing of the hospital was horrific and unless she changes her tone once she realizes Palestinians did it then this isn't supporting terrorism.
She's calling for a ceasefire while Hamas has its hostages. Hamas isn't going to give back the hostages in honor of a ceasefire. A ceasefire, even a temporary one, is a win for Hamas in that it prolongs the terror, and resolves nothing. The best-case scenario of a ceasefire is they wait two months, Hamas jerks everybody around, and then it all starts over again, except now with the babies indoctrinated two months further into Islam.
She's blaming Israel with only one piece of evidence: Hamas's accusation. Meanwhile, OSINT + Israeli intelligence made public + US Intelligence all make it clear that Israel was not at fault. She chooses to repeat Hamas's story instead of looking at the evidence. She is supporting Hamas.
She didn't just say the bombing of the hospital was horrific. She explicitly said that Israel bombed the hospital:
There's enough evidence - from third parties, not from either Hamas or the IDF or another invested party - out there that runs counter to the claim that it was an Israeli airstrike that Tlaib should have at least modified here initial statement.
But she hasn't.
I agree that she hasn't openly supported terrorism, but blaming one side for something that was very likely caused by the other side, and then completely refusing to acknowledge that once evidence to the contrary comes out is, at the very least, doing nothing to calm tensions.
War doesn't exist in a vacuum. If you add weight to one side of the scale, the other side is raised. If I have a can of Coke and a can of Pepsi, and I point to the Coke and say, "This one gave me diabetes," it doesn't matter that the Pepsi is just as bad, all that matters is that I pushed the blame on Coke.
"if", jesus fucking christ
Big if true
Its easy and understandable to fall for initial disinformation, but after facts come out sticking to those lies becomes malicious.
From the article:
It sounds like she acknowledges Israel probably isn't behind it, but also isn't apologizing for her initial remarks like some Republicans were calling for. The story should probably mention that higher up and more explicitly, rather than burying the lede.
but then we cant farm those juicy outrage page hits.
I dunno this strikes me as an issue. Like, if a known serial killer is accused of murder for obvious reasons, and we find out they were actually innocent -- we weren't wrong for our initial suspicions and accusation, but we do owe them an apology once all the information is out.
If you accuse someone who turns out to be innocent, the polite thing to do is apologize for thinking badly of them, however much you were justified in thinking so to start with.
Omar's comment calling for further investigation is completely appropriate, while Tlaib's refusal to apologize is inappropriate, especially since she conflated the whole thing with being anti Muslim.
No - we don't owe a serial killer an apology if turns out they murdered ninety-nine people instead of a hundred.
No, there is nothing "polite" about "apologizing" to a genocidal settler-colonialist state.
Huh, when you put it that way... I see what you mean.
There were massive destruction weapons in Iraq. Or not ? How to know who you should believe ?
The left just struggles with separating the sane part from the crazy-democrat-version-of-maga-part. Gotta stick together to show those stupid Republicans who are sticking by their crazy maga crowd.
Wut.
The US DOD should find the munitions expert who made that bomb with such limited budget seeing how powerful it is and teach the Ukrainian military how to do something similar
It blew up some parked cars and caused a fireball, by no means a powerful blast lol
There's no reason to apologize, if Isreal is so adamant to prove it's innocence let an international investigation open. But they won't because like for the killing of the journalist Shereen AbuAkleh they are guilty.
There's a link above to NPR with the (Al Jazeera?) footage of the missile failing and part of it hitting the parking lot
Then why lie to strengthen your cause if it is already justifiable without the facts being known?
The ones that have a long track records of lies and deceit are Israeli and US government. History is the witness. I don't need to strengthen the case I want the end of civilians murder, humanitarian aids and international investigation on war crimes such as this.
Oh, because Hamas never lies or murders civilians!
=/
Hamas is a terrorist organization born from Israeli apartheid and genocide.
Is there a reason you choose to believe their story about the hospital explosion? Have they presented any evidence at all?
I take no stance on the hospital bombing, from what I've seen it seems like it was a group called Islamic Jihad
Ah, I thought I was still replying to the OP of this thread. It probably was PIJ, but the only party that originally asserted it was Israel was Hamas, so people piggybacking off Hamas's story and running with it rather than looking at any of the evidence is a real problem.
I think people are just fearing the worst of the Israeli retaliation, honestly its not outlandish to me for Israel to bomb a hospital so I can see why people jumped to conclusions.
So people are biased into thinking Israel would kill hundreds of civilians in one shot just because it wanted to, yourself included, and after seeing all the evidence point to the opposite, you're just saying "oh well, they're still just as evil as they clearly aren't?"
I bet you also assume, apropos of no evidence, that Israel did bomb the Rafah crossing, even though Israel keeps telling Palestinians to go evacuate south, and Egypt, Jordan, Hamas, and PIJ all keep telling them not to. The media moved on bare accusations from Arab parties, but can't cite any evidence or reason for the claim.
Damn I wonder why people would be biased against an apartheid state participating in ethnic cleansing aka genocide.
Also i never said anything about any of those specific incidents you are referring to.
I more wonder why people are so willing to believe that a border between nations is a form of apartheid, or that genocide is what it's called when populations skyrocket.
But you'd rather believe an organization that calls for global genocide in its founding charter, proactively forbids any kind of peace, and acts accordingly, huh? You'd rather believe them when they have no evidence? You'd rather believe them when they post videos of themselves massacring civilians and then go on TV the next day saying "we didn't target any civilians, that's just propaganda."
this whole thread is about the hospital explosion.
There's a good essay on The Atlantic by a former AP reporter on how the press fails to counter Hamas strongarming them to give them a pass their failures in Gaza. Walking into the office armed to make them pull articles about misfires killing civilians and such. Rest assured that the 'history' you've seen is heavily colored by the Palestinian side as well, and perhaps even more.
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/11/how-the-media-makes-the-israel-story/383262/
This is actually an interesting point worth consideration. For all the talk of the propaganda and lying and manipulation, we often don't apply similar scrutiny to Hamas nor question their numbers.
Israel has shared a whole lot of its intelligence publicly. The explosion occurred in Gaza, wouldn't it be on Hamas to allow an investigation?
Who? For the lazy. She's Palestinian as well so the bias is understandable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashida_Tlaib
The hospital attack was a failed rocket by Islamic Jihad coming from Gaza toward Israel.
https://abcnews.go.com/International/live-updates/israel-gaza-live-updates/biden-says-gaza-hospital-explosion-done-by-the-other-team-as-netanyahu-thanks-biden-for-unprecedented-level-of-cooperation-104064882?id=104049894
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/biden-reinforces-support-during-israel-visit-as-hospital-explosion-further-inflames-rage
https://www.reuters.com/world/biden-heads-middle-east-inflamed-by-gaza-hospital-blast-2023-10-18/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVH2zBO-EqI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kaRHeJzIr8
At the very least she should recant her statements. There's been enough chaos from it being attributed to Israel that she has a responsibility as a public official to issue a retraction.
Who? You're in a political subreddit. You didn't know who she is?
Not everyone's American, we don't know your entire portfolio of talking heads.
Okay so read the article and it says exactly who she is?
Are you bothered by someone providing more context? What is it you are adding here?
... You know all 435 voting members of the US House of Representatives which she's a part of and 100 Congressman?
Right lmfao.
She's not some nobody from nowhere.
So they are not believing the Pentagon's assessment? Or just don't care and going with feels instead?
Pentagon also said Iraq had Weapon of Mass Destruction 🤷♂️
Also said Russia was going to invade Ukraine, and people were skeptical of it for the exact same argument.
Sometimes they're right. You can't take them as an absolute authority nor always lying. In the broader context, with analysis that other independent groups have done, it seems to me they're telling the truth here.
100%
True, but different time, different administration, different circumstances. Just because a government lied once doesn't necessarily mean everything they say in the future is a lie, but certainly should be taken with a grain of salt.
...and the USS Maddox was struck by the north Vietnamese...
Yeah, I definitely trust the pentagon not to have a motive to lie about it. After all, they've proven to be trustworthy in the past! You gotta support the veterans, they never lie!
As a former service dog trainer who trained dogs specifically for disabled veterans there's a reason I refuse to talk about the military and how it treats their people.
She needs to have her bias confirmed. The fog of war is a powerful thing. Unfortunately, her vocalizations do no service for her district.
That's not true, they prove that she has a brain and is trying to use it unlike about 430 of her colleagues
You can acknowledge that there is uncertainty around who is responsible for the hospital, you can apologize for attributing blame prematurely without confirmation, and still hold Israel accountable for being reckless and disproportional in it's response and call for peace. It's damaging to her reputation and cause to double down on this when more evidence is coming out contrary to her initial claims.
Why do you think she's doubling down?
The headline said she's not apologizing for her earlier remarks, not that she refuses to consider that it might have been a case of friendly fire.
In fact, the article itself shows she's not doubling down. She's just not apologetic about taking initial reports at face value.
Evidence like that Pentagon report? Lmfao
Sorry if I'm a little callous about the Pentagon reporting on the middle east
So what sources are you holding in higher esteem?
Well there is the hospital itself, which was being bombed by Israel just days before this incident, who said immediately after the incident that this was an Israeli attack.
Logical reasoning, pretty much anyone but the pentagon or anyone who cites that information was transmitted between states.
Relief organizations are more reliable, as are civilian social media. I don't trust people with guns and bombs to tell you honestly what they're gonna do with them.
I would generally trust people with guns and weapons data and expertise to provide the best analysis of evidence use to understand weapon use. Also, we are seeing more independent reporting with similar conclusions based on photographs of craters (or lack there of), long periods of burning (which is characteristic of rocket fuel burning not bomb explosions which tend to not cause long burning fires), etc.
Argue the point all you want, I still don't trust the people with the power to wipe Gaza off the map not to do it.
Well that's a different point that the concrete and specific question of who and what destroyed this specific hospital.
Nice meme but it's the pentagon, you must be very young
It's the "everybody is wrong except me" group heard from.
Seems like her heart is in the right place, but I fear peace talks at this time would be unproductive. Neither side can be described as conciliatory.
If not now, when? They've been at this for decades
I would love to be able to force them to try, as doubtful as such a peace would be. Any ceasefire would be preferable to this.
Israel's objective is that Hamas no longer exists and that Gaza can no longer pose a security threat to Israel. They won't accept a return to the status quo that just results in more rocket attacks and another wave of attacks years from now.
I understand wanting to see an end to violence and calling for a ceasefire based on that, but to do so is to de facto support more intentional attacks on Israeli civilians, which Israel is simply not going to allow. The time to discuss the future of Gaza will only come once Hamas and other militias are conclusively out of the picture.
Hamas's founding charter prohibits them from seeking peace or negotiating at all.
And they still have ~150-200 hostages, mostly civilians.
The problem is that Hamas exists, and has complete political control over Gaza. There is nobody Israel can talk to, while Hamas is in power, and convince them to return the hostages, stop the rocket fire, etc.
This is not a problem that can be solved with words.
The only glimmer of hope, unfortunately, lays on the other side of a complete and total destruction of Hamas in Gaza.
There is. Hamas. It happened before. And Israel didn't follow through with it. Look up the 2008 and 2012 blockades (or I can give a breakdown on them).
Oh yeah, I remember the last time Hamas released a hostage.
I wasn't talking about the hostages, my bad there, though those can be easily demanded as part of a ceasefire agreement.
The thing is that the Islamic Jihad and Hamas don't want to negotiate, since they won't accept a two-state solution, so peace is not possible while any of them has a militarized branch. There are plenty of people in Israel that don't want to negotiate but at least on the Israeli side the only group that needs to stick to the plan is the IDF which will follow the orders they get.
If you see what's going on in the West Bank, Israel is also doing everything it can to make a two state solution impossible
They will. Well at least Hamas well. They changed their charter in 2017 to reflect that.
Yeah, but then Hamas went ahead and murdered 1,400 civilians in Israel. After this, why exactly would Israel want to negotiate with terrorists?
Mostly so this mess doesn't happen again? Hamas and others like it are a symptom, not a cause.
Here's the story of the last hostage negotiation between Israel and Hamas. Note that Israel released about half the prisoners from its side of the exchange after Shalit's release.
Hamas, is, in fact, a cause. Those Israeli civilians were not murdered by some kind of bad-faith negotiation, they were murdered by people who decided to murder them. They were raped by people who decided to rape them. They were kidnapped by people who decided to kidnap them. We absolutely must blame the actual perpetrators of these atrocities, and not hand-wave them away as just a symptom.
The thing is: The atrocities themselves are symptoms. A free Palestine wouldn't foster the conditions necessary for this kind of bullshit to happen at a large scale.
Note: I condemn any and all murder of civilians.
Humanity wouldn't foster the conditions necessary for these things to happen. If the people in Hamas had any humanity left in them, they could not have done it. Is it not a symptom of their decisions, as people? Is it not a symptom of their sheer depravity?
A "Free Palestine" is entirely hypothetical, but back in Mandatory Palestine, the Muftis broke bread with Hitler and talked plenty about ridding the world of Jews. They launched pogroms against the Jews. They refused any kind of deal for Jews to even have a small piece of territory, even 20%—look up the Peel commission. They killed Jewish civilians, they made Britain ban Jews from purchasing land... The very prospect that Jews might want to peacefully buy unsettled land in their indigenous homeland was met with violence.
Today, while Israel is not at peace with the West Bank, nothing nearly so atrocious has happened there. The debate is not over civilian deaths, it's over settlements and rocks and territory.
But Hamas reacted to to Israel's unilaterally ending the occupation in Gaza by dramatically ramping up rocket fire. Hamas explicitly wants to kill Jews all over the world.
They're human actors who decide to shed their humanity and brutalize civilians. When humans decide to do that, they're not symptoms, they're morally culpable agents.
The thing is: You normally can't gather large numbers of those people and convince them to attack random civilians, especially when it involves a very good chance of dying. There's a very specific combination of desperation and hopelessness that makes things like these
That's just so wrong I can't... Every year innocent people die in the West bank at the hands of the IDF and settlers. Also the "rocks and territory" are people's homes. People are getting chased out of their homes for the sin of being born on land Israelis wanna settle. The West bank is definitely preferable to Gaza, but 7000 civilians died there since the Israeli occupation. The current state of the West bank is not a good argument against Hamas.
There was the whole blockade mess. That's the cause of the rocket fire. Hamas has been pretty explicit about that, and signed two ceasefires before that had them stop launching rockets in exchange for Israel lifting the blockade (the blockade wasn't lifted, so the rocket attacks came back).
They've been indoctrinating children for decades. They've done it in UN-run schoolbuildings. They get caught with textbooks telling them to kill Jews, UN says stop it, they keep doing it.
They make little schoolchildren put on plays about the joy of killing Jews.
Blockade started in 2007. Israel left Gaza in 2005. Rocket fire started in 2001.
I don't know which ceasefires you're talking about offhand, feel free to help me out.
Rocket fire started in 2001 when, well, the specific trigger isn't very clear, but let's say it's the breakdown of negotiations at the camp David summit. So the thing is, in 2005 when Israel disengaged from Gaza, they started periodically blockading it, and in 2006 (Hamas hadn't even won the elections yet so they don't even have that excuse) closed the final legal passage between Gaza and Israel. They also withheld Palestinian tax money from the PA (just to clarify, at the time the PA was Gaza and the West Bank, not only the West Bank like it is now) for more than a year, but that's beside the point. Anyway they "lifted" the blockade in February, only the amount of exports they allowed was miniscule and could barely keep up with Gazan imports. This caused food shortages, prevented workers from crossing the border, y'know, classic blockade things.
What started in 2007 was the modern blockade, whereby Israel basically allows nothing other than some international aid to go to and from Gaza, but Gaza has been blockaded in some form since 2005. Only 13% of pre-blockade agricultural exports were allowed in the February 2006 blockade, for example. This is bad for an economy like Gaza that relies on agricultural exports.
Well there was one in 2008 and another 2012. In both basically the same thing happened: Israel and Hamas sign a blockade, Hamas stops rocket attacks, and polices other groups to make sure they follow suit (they weren't 100% successful, but the effects were obvious; Hamas was following the ceasefire in good faith). Then they wait. The agreed upon time passes, even more time passes (the 2012 ceasefire lasted over a year) and the blockade still remains (hell, in the latter half of 2013 Israeli attacks against Gaza increased, even though they were against the terms of the ceasefire).
This is all about the ceasefires, the next paragraph is about the Palestinian unity government, which is sort of but not really related except also being a post-Intifada peace effort.
In 2013 the PA and Hamas came together and formed a unified government. There, both factions wanted peace and they both came together; if Israel had wanted peace there was no better opportunity than this. Well Netenyahu repeatedly opposed the unity government, didn't lift the blockade and didn't budge an inch from his stance on Palestine during peace negotiations with the PA. This meant, of course, repeatedly announcing the construction of new settlements in the West Bank, which made a breakthrough all but impossible. This isn't my opinion, this is the American special envoy sent for the negotiations. So... Yeah.
Israel has negotiated with Hamas before.
Hamas had virtually free reign in Gaza for the past 17 years, despite violently pushing out Fatah and never holding elections again.
That didn't stop Hamas from murdering 1,400 civilians in Israel.
What results should Israel expect if they negotiated with Hamas this time?
And then went back on the results of those negotiations. Two ceasefires were signed before, and in both the blockade being lifted was a condition that Israel didn't fulfill no matter how long Hamas waited.
Also you're being very disingenuous by ignoring the blockade. You can't call the situation in Gaza "free reign".
It's not like the ceasefires were unilaterally observed by Hamas, and only broken by Israel.
I'm not even trying to defend Israel here. My entire point is that there is absolutely no reason to put your entire trust into a terrorist organization that just murdered 1,400 civilians.
At first that was the case. Hamas only broke the ceasefires when it became apparent that the most important part to them, lifting the blockade, wouldn't happen.
We can both condemn the murder of civilians (by both sides) and condemn Israel for not trying to make peace. This isn't trust; this is working off their official position and past examples. Them being a terrorist organization has nothing to do with that.
Hamas won the 2006 election, and Fatah and the rest of the world opposed them taking office. Hamas and Fatah fought it out, and Hamas won in Gaza and Fatah in the West Bank.
You're right that Hamas hasn't allowed elections since then, but simply saying, 'violently pushing out Fatah ' is much less than accurate.
It should also be noted that Hamas won that election because Fatah's strategy of negotiations was seen as a dead end and Israel is responsible for that. And of course, there might not even BE a Hamas if Israel hadn't funded Hamas as a divide and conquer strategy against the Palestinian secular nationalist movement .
They changed their charter to deflect criticism. They haven't changed their behavior at all. They're still actively pursuing the death of every Jew and Jew-sympathizer the world over. They still say the same shit, but they make sure to only say it in Arabic, and not while the West is paying attention. And they try their best to replace "Jew" with "Zionist," (still around the world), and they still encourage "global Jihad," and they still view a Jew's death anywhere as cause for celebration.
I liked her in her involvement with the progressives… but this is a real bad look. I understand her emotions especially given her Palestinian roots, but she needs to provide evidence if she’s going to use her political platform to rail against the currently accepted explanation of things.
Her initial reaction and statements are completely fair. But as a public official, she needs to issue a retraction and apologize for being incorrect.
I view her the exact same way I view Manchin. They're Dems, and we need more Dems, but I wish I lived in a world where I didn't need them specifically.
please, don't make me take up for Israel.
Israel is asshoe, but if I was captured, I'd rather it be Israel
Nice username dweeb
thanks
It's crazy how quick people are to believe the pentagon with absolutely 0 proof as if they wouldn't lie to protect the side that have massively invested interests in.
she has nothing to apologise for considering she is right
Listen, I'm on the side of innocent Palestinian civilians as much as the next guy, but Hamas does have a habit of using human shields and putting military equipment near schools/hospitals. Truth is, none of us know truly who shot the missile. The fact that it's actually still being investigated means everyone should stfu
I’d love to see a source on that proving that she’s right, since you’re so sure and all
I'd love to see any source right now that could be considered reliable
Seeing as how Israel created an apartheid state and is commiting ethnic cleansing aka genocide, I fail to see how she has anything to apologize for.
Some of putler's best allies don't even know they are helping him.
Those glasses aren't doing her any favours.
What do you have against the glasses?
I don't like the glasses.
She's completely unhinged.
Calls for ceasefire so less innocent civilians die...
Called unhinged.
Nice.
"Democratic Reps. Rashida Tlaib, D-Mich. and Ilhan Omar, D-Minn., said that Israel is to blame for the hospital explosion in Gaza despite Israel denying fault."
Shes completely unhinged. The facts are irrelevant to her. She will blame and denounce Israel no matter what. She is failing to demonstrate rational thinking.
They both made that statement based on reports at that time. Omar has since retracted that claim after US officials concurred with the evidence, but Tlaib hasn't said anything. Sure, I agree that she should walk back the statement and issue a correction, but I don't think anything about calling for a "ceasefire" is unhinged. It's worth noting that she's also Palestinian. This is an issue that literally hits home for her. I'm happy that she's one of the few that is standing up to support the Palestinian people here, and not just blindly siding with Israel.
So you imply I'm blindly siding with Israel? Who are you talking to? I've stated why I support Israel so far and why Palestinian innocents will die as a result. I argued that calls for a simple ceasefire must be understood as calls to allow more attacks on Israel from Hamas. It is not possible to separate the two. How do you intend to cease fire when one side is chartered to destroy all Jews and Israel? What do you intend to tell Hamas so that they stop? If they say they will stop, what prevents them from biding their time until a future strike on Israel? You and your supporters have so far failed to answer any of these questions. It's because I care about the deaths of innocents, that I cannot support a ceasefire at this time. I don't believe that Palestinians should be spared so that Israelites die in their place.
No, I was implying that most people in Washington are blindly siding with Israel on this matter.
Israel doing a ceasefire doesn't meant they just let Hamas blindly attack, literally no one is saying that. Israel is one of the most technologically advanced nations in the world. They declare a no man's land, they monitor for attacks, and they allow for the evacuation/humanitarian support of Palestinian citizens. America has forces there - they need to help mediate and figure out what the next steps are. Because carpet bombing Gaza is not the acceptable answer.
This is the argument that's been used for years to justify the countless death of Palestinian citizens. Check out the chart below....how one sided it is.
Hamas will simply hide under the guise of civilians and the threat to Israel still remains. There is no solution under a ceasefire, because Hamas has committed to the complete destruction of all Jews and Israel. Israel knows this. So they simply will not stop while Hamas exists, because they believe what Hamas says about their stated mission. It's a nice chart you have showing deaths on each side. But that's a utilitarian argument and I haven't been arguing for the utility of sparing Palestine. What I've said is, Israel has a right to defend themselves, and the actions they take now are taken in the interests of that defense. So long as they are targeting Hamas, I support them. To do otherwise, is to excuse what Hamas did, because Israel has done bad things in the past too. It's irrelevant. Hamas is responsible for their actions, and for the actions they've taken, they deserve the consequences. The best thing Palestinians can do is get out of the way.
So, by your argument, just "glassing" Gaza would be totally acceptable in your eyes? That the deaths of Palestinian people are acceptable collateral damage in an effort to defend themselves from Hamas? I mean, where do you draw the line between killing a few, and full blown genocide?
No, I would not ever support leveling Gaza. And, I note, Israel has not done that. They've declared war on Hamas. Not Palestinians. They're going to incur more deaths to their people when they invade Gaza. They're going to spend that blood making sure Hamas is eliminated, because there is no alternative when facing an enemy committed to your complete destruction. You kill good cells to destroy the cancer in your body.
No one gives a shit that she's a woman or Muslim. People care that she blindly supports Hamas, an actual fucking terrorist organization, and always assumes that Israel is the problem.
she has never said anything about supporting hamas why are you conflating the palestinian people with hamas?
I clearly am not.
Why are you failing to understand a very simple post?
Yeah I thought that was pretty cut and dry
Blindly supports Hamas? Point where she fucking did that at all...ever....in any of her speeches, because I guarantee you that's not true. You're literally making shit up at this point.
This can only be construed as support for Hamas's continued existence, since only invasion will end their autocracy
https://twitter.com/RepRashida/status/1714747806039015899?t=5dw-STP-JjcqoX7PYKiPeA&s=19
I'm struggling to understand your rationale here. The image below from the link that you posted....that's showing support for Hamas? So this really is just a black and white thing for you? It's either support Israel and support their apartheid, almost genocidal approach to killing Gazan people.....or supporting Hamas? Seriously? She's calling for ceasefire so that people aren't needlessly being slaughtered. Maybe figure out a way to help people so that horrific shit like this doesn't happen.
Calling for a ceasefire is not a criticism of past Israeli policy. It is advocacy for the continued existence of Hamas
Calling for a ceasefire is not showing support for Hamas. It's to prevent the needless slaughter of thousands upon thousands of men, woman, and children that have nothing to do with the fight or the issues.
How do you not get that? Or are the deaths of these people just acceptable collateral damage to you?
"Allow these terrorists to invade and massacre you without reprisal, ignoring the geopolitical realities of not responding" is indeed support of terrorists.
Civilians are tragically caught up on Hamas's actions as the aggressor. That's part of why terrorism is so bad.
Friendly reminder that if Hamas did not exist, Palestinians would have their own country for the first time in human history.
Fuck what Hamas did. But that doesn't give Israel the right to displace everyone in Gaza, drop bombs on them with reckless abandon with no regards to if there are innocent people there, and steal their land. Israel's response to this is sickening. I don't support Hamas, but I literally can't support what Israel has done to, and is actively doing to the Gazan people in the name of fighting terrorism.
Friendly reminder that Netanyahu actively sabotaged any peacetalks by literally supporting Hamas. He gave funds inappropriately to Gaza, purposefully knowing that the funds would reach Hamas. He literally fought against peace talks as he didn't want a Gazan state.
You know very well it’s the only army in the world that issues evacuation order to its bombing targets, losing an insane amount of tactical advantage. That’s not what indiscriminate bombing looks like. Check vietnam war footages.
The situation is fucked up from both sides, yes Bibi is a palestinian hating monster. All those things can be true at the same time.
Is it?
Check my next post where I detail how many Palestinian buildings have been destroyed. They gave everyone 24 hours and then just decimated the city. "Accidental rockets, bombs, and missiles are making their way over to civilian populations. Hell. There's a video making the rounds on Reddit about a young, hysterical Palestinian boy who witnessed his friends head explode and his brains splattered on the ground after an Israeli missile.
The IDF and Hamas are no different. Both are committing horrific atrocities. Don't be fooled into thinking that they are morally justified in anything that they are doing right now.
This is a pretty one-sided and inaccurate description of the Israeli response
I am excited at the idea of this tragedy blowing up in Netanyahu's face and ending his career. We agree there
I don't see how this can be anything other than a "justified" land grab. Theyve done this for years. Declared someplace as "state land" kick the Gazans out and then build settlements there (Source). This time, that have all the justification they feel that they need to rush in and take as much as possible - they will 100% never give that land back that they've taken. In order to make it more difficult and futile for Gazans to get their land back, Israel has been destroying Infrastructure there. So far, in their "War on Terror" they've destroyed 22,600 residential units, 90 education facilities, 18 places of worship, 19health centers, 20 ambulances, 70 industrial facilities, and 49 media offices (per United Nations - Oct 13th). Israel is using this war to destroy Gaza, not just Hamas, and it's been supported by people like you.
This is more than just a war on Hamas. This is why people like Tlaib are calling for ceasefires. What's happening to the Gazan people in the name of "Fighting Terrorism" is absolutely criminal.
This is really shitty logic.
So because I was against the war in Afghanistan and wanted us to withdraw I was pro al queda?
I want the war in Ukraine to stop, does that make me pro Russia?
Yes.
K thanks for verifying that you have shitty logic.
I don't care about your opinions because I don't think you're a smart person.
So tough