This is why the “good guy with the gun” BS needs to die. The real world isn’t a movie: there are no designated heroes and villains. Everyone’s a good guy in their own mind until they point a gun at a 6 year old.
I've always wondered how people thought the "good guy with a gun" would work in a chaotic real world situation. Suppose you're armed and there's a mass shooting event. You pull out your gun and keep a look out for the shooter as you hear gunfire getting closer. Then you spot a guy holding a gun. You quickly take aim and fire...
... And hit another "good guy with a gun" who was trying to take out the mass shooter the same as you.
Oh, but then you get shot by a third "good guy with a gun" who thought YOU were the mass shooter.
Arming everyone and telling them to be "good guys with guns" just seems, at best, like it would lead to MORE injuries and deaths.
Or, as has actually happened before, a good guy with a gun kills the bad guy and then gets shot by the cops who arrive thinking the guy with the gun is the bad guy:
Yup, this is how it goes down in my head, and why I don't carry a gun. I think there's a decent chance that I could take down an active shooter (not sure if I have the guts to, but that's beside the point) because I have the element of surprise on my side, but there's an even bigger chance I get shot either in the crossfire or by the police. Most of the time it'll be a single shooter, but I have no guarantee that's the case, so I'd need to be ready for a second shooter.
I've run through a few options, and I just don't see a clear way to distinguish myself from an active shooter.
Of course, the other option is just say "please no don't do it I have a wife and 47 kids!"
You could also try running, yes, or hiding, but "carrying a gun" and "trying to get to an exit or shelter in place and only using said gun if he blocks the exit or finds your hiding spot" are not exactly mutually exclusive, you can do both, you don't have to "run towards the sound of gunfire" like some marine. In fact that would be the much smarter way to do it, "camping" isn't frowned upon in real life, this isn't COD. As for identifying who the shooter is "it's usually the guy shooting unarmed people," but failing that, "better to be sure and confirm your target," unfortunately this puts you at a disadvantage but he's willing to shoot random people and you aren't (I hope), so what're ya gonna do.
so what’re ya gonna do.
Pass gun control rules? And convict people like Rittenhouse.
Unfortunately from a realistic standpoint even with gun control laws this will not be an impossibility, though they may reduce the frequency. There's already upwards of 600,000,000 guns in 50% of the populations hands (and women won't stop buying them, they're the fastest growing group of new gun owners. More specifically black women followed by all women), even if you ban them they'll be out there.
And unfortunately Rittenhouse was textbook self defense, he only shot the guy who grabbed for his gun, and then the guy who hit him with a skateboard and grabbed for his gun, and then the guy who pointed a gun at him, not any of the people who retreated or didn't attack. I know, he lived in a different state and commuted 20 min to kenosha for work every day where his friends and dad lived, but the gun was kept at Dominic Black's house and never "crossed state lines" (also, even if it did, it is legal to cross state lines with a gun so long as it is legal in the state, and WI is far more permissive than IL, any gun legal in IL is legal in WI by far.) Also it is legal for a 17yo to have a gun in WI for some reason. Unfortunately even if we agree with his political opinions we currently can't put him in jail for that, he didn't actually break any laws.
Pass gun control laws and he showed up with a gun he should have gone to jail. Your bff is out there now as a darling of conservative media btw
But he was allowed to show up with a gun in case someone attacked him, can't arrest him for defending himself if he's allowed to do it, as unfortunate as that is. Sorry, I've never met him, you must have me confused with someone else.
You show up somewhere with a gun it is because you are planning on using it. And yeah he is your bff
Well if you plan on defending yourself if necessary, it isn't very much help to you if you leave it at home. Also idk how he can "plan" to be attacked, unless he's on the spice with the prescience. And naw never met him, sorry dude, you're definitely thinking of someone else.
I'm not worried about me identifying the shooter, I'm worried about the police identifying me as the shooter or hostage taker if I somehow shoot the perp but don't kill them.
Best case scenario, I shoot someone and risk getting shot by the police, worst case scenario I get shot by the perp (and even worse, they use my gun to kill people), and average case scenario, I get out alive without using the gun. I just don't see a lot of good things coming out of it. My area is incredibly safe, so the chances of needing it are extremely small, the chances of it helping are even smaller, and the chances of my kids finding it are much higher than I'm comfortable with.
If I was commuting through a bad neighborhood, I could see it being useful. I live and work in safe neighborhoods, so it's not an issue.
Well that's why CCW training tells you to put your gun away if you're sure it's now a safe area, and if it isn't now a safe area (possible other shooters for instance) to GTFO and call the cops and your lawyer. Also why you should give a description of the active shooter if you call it in, so they know "oh this dude in a T shirt may be a defender, we recieved a call about a guy in tac gear." Of course, most often the shooters specifically target gun free zones because you can't have one there, so you technically likely shouldn't have one anyway, so makes sense the cops wouldn't expect a defender in those cases either.
Yeah it's something that everyone needs to decide for themselves (my issue is when people like to decide things for others.) It definitely can be helpful in a specific scenario, like a hammer to a nail, but it is also a responsibility and if you aren't able or willing to, you shouldn't, that simple. Especially if as you say you are you're priviledged enough to live in a good area, in contrast to pizza delivery drivers (well, "ex") who live in bad neighborhoods who may need them.
Agreed, and I'll always defend the right to carry, for those who choose to. I think we should have some extra restrictions, like maybe a CCW for concealable firearms (and subsequent training), plus proof of secure storage in some manner if you have kids.
The only place I'd carry is at work, and it's against company policy to carry. So I don't, it's just not worth the risk and the likelihood that I'd need it is so remote.
Well a CCW is already required in most states to carry except for those recently lightening restrictions. Secure storage is iffy, because the supreme court already ruled it invalidates the right to self defense (most home invaders aren't kind enough to wait until you get your safe open to duel you, they typically just steal the guns from your safe after forcing you to open it at gunpoint when you ask if they'll hold up a sec, and then use those in subseqent crimes.)
And yeah I hear that, unfortunately the fact that your work bans guns even with a CCW means that if you ever do need it, it'll probably be there, gun free zones being the typical targets, and disgruntled employees and all. But I totally understand that it becomes not worth the risk then, you'd either have to risk being found out and fired or keep it in the car which while sometimes necessary because "gun free zone" always feels like you're forced to leave a gun where it can be (and they often are) easily stolen.
Secure storage is mostly for people with kids or at-risk individuals at home.
Secure storage against burglary doesn't exist; if they want your guns, they'll just grind their way in or steal the safe to grind later. Expecting home owners to protect against that absolutely just isn't practical, the goal should be keeping curious (or determined) kids from getting in, and deterring theft from burglary should be a nice side-effect. Unfortunately, most gun locks fail that standard.
keep it in the car
Yeah, I'm not going to escape a building with an active shooter to retrieve a gun and go back in. If I know I need it and it's in my car, it might as well be at home. And keeping it in the car is just asking for trouble from an officer, they seem to be easily spooked by such things. Fortunately, I'm white, so I'll probably get the benefit of the doubt, but it's just not something I'm interested in testing.
But if there was an incident in my office, I'd be screwed. There are three exits:
emergency exit near my workspace - would sound an alarm (not ideal)
main door - glass doorway that opens into the entryway and looks into my hallway (terrible)
back door - need to pass a glass door to the lobby, and another to the lunch room; it opens up onto a balcony (long drop, would need to cross lots of windows either direction)
So basically, my options aren't great. Yet I still think I'm net better off not carrying.
As a kid who notoriously defeated locks and found hidden items: good luck. My parents didn't have guns to find but my uncle taught me about them when I was like 10 so tbh they were never really some mystical artifact to play with to me, I'd already shot a few, knew how to use them safely and not to do so without an adult, etc. Conversely nobody educated me about alcohol instead figuring locks would work, hehe. Surprise!
Yeah, I'm not going to escape a building with an active shooter to retrieve a gun and go back in
No lol you said work banned them, so people who work there and carry outside of work (maybe they have a life [sorry lol you seem cool but it was too perfect]) have to leave their gun in the car and put it in their pants at 5:00, so, were you to carry, you'd have to also do that. That is what I meant. Problem being, that rule makes for a good scenario for a gun thief. If there were an active shooter and you get out, fuck your coworkers that's their problem, take your gun and go home (unless you wanted to help them because you like them or they're humans or something, point being you aren't obligated to.) As for cops, if you are following the laws (and yeah white helps, but that is another issue that needs to be fixed) they actually seem to think you're on their side because "gun and following laws," oddly they started treating me with some semblance of respect, it was kinda weird.
emergency exit near my workspace - would sound an alarm (not ideal)
Exactly ideal tbh, egress and alarm with one action? AND close? Sounds great.
main door - glass doorway that opens into the entryway and looks into my hallway (terrible)
Also a likely point of entry for the shooter, definitely terrible.
back door - need to pass a glass door to the lobby, and another to the lunch room; it opens up onto a balcony (long drop, would need to cross lots of windows either direction)
Kinda having trouble visualizing this but it doesn't sound great, best bet is the emergency or shelter in place, but SIP is hampered by lack of last ditch weapon. I'd push it out that door.
Yeah I'd agree, simply since it'd be illegal. Functionally, even if I'm heading for that exit or sheltering, I'd rather have a hail mary even if some situations are a Kobyashi Maru, but since it would be illegal to have in the gun free zone, you don't have a choice anyway.
As a kid... defeated locks
I watch LockPickingLawyer on YouTube, and it seems every gun lock/safe has some gaping security issue, and many that I see at stores that haven't been covered look like they'd have similar issues.
So until I find something that LPL would approve for use around kids, I'm not buying a handgun.
That said, I'll probably get a small rifle soon (probably 22lr) that I can store in the attic. My kids could find it, it would take a lot of effort and it isn't that interesting. I mostly want it to teach my kids to shoot "real" guns (they've shot BB guns) and maybe go hunt some rabbits. I may also get a 22lr pistol, but that's a bit higher on the "cool" factor and thus higher risk.
If I find a lock that I can trust, I might pick up a 9mm or .357 for personal use. I've taken my wife shooting, and she really liked it, so I'd like to take her out to fed land and shoot sometimes. If I did, I'd get a CCW (unnecessary in my state, but necessary for travel) and carry sometimes when I go out to get comfortable with it. But the lock comes first.
egress and alarm with one action?
Our muster point for most emergencies is right out front of our building, in full view of the front doors and windows where the shooter is likely to be. Our active shooter muster point (blue light alarm) is across the street behind the building in a parking garage (can see from the rear balcony, but there's a place to hide).
If I trigger the fire alarm, people will go right into the shooter's path. If someone else pulls it (far more likely), I would go right out front into the shooter's path. The alarm would also increase the shooter's stress level, which could be the difference between them shooting and not.
having trouble visualizing
It's an office building built into a hill. The front is ground level and the rear has a ledge/balcony about 2 floors above the rear ground level that runs the length of the building in either direction. One side of the building has a parking garage, and the other has the truck loading zone down one level. Here's some crappy ASCII art (top is front, I work bottom right, t is truck loading, p is parking garage, XX is building, and | and - are the railing).
t | XX p
|---|
I work near the parking garage, and the no-alarm exit is ~2/3 of the way across the building toward the truck loading zone. From there, I can either run back to the parking garage (lots of windows), or toward the truck loading zone (some windows, drop onto cement).
since it would be illegal
It's not a gun free zone, it's merely against company policy and probably landlord policy. There is no posted signage, but I did need to sign something when I started acknowledging that I understand the rules. So violation wouldn't result in a criminal case, but it could result in my termination and/or official trespass order.
It's possible some people here carry (constitutional carry state), but given company policy, that number is probably pretty low. I would certainly risk violating that rule if I believed there was an elevated risk, like we fired someone over culture fit reasons (I'd probably just WFH honestly), otherwise I'd comply.
It’s deflective rhetoric so they don’t have to address the truth:
We don’t know who is going to make a bad decision with their gun until after they do it.
Yeah, my coworkers said how great it would have been after the Colorado movie theater shooting (Batman movie) if everyone was armed. They just knew the original shooter would have been killed right away.
So,
Dark theater
Smoke filled (by shooter)
Bullets suddenly flying
Who in their right mind thinks basically everyone wouldn't have been mowed down in a hail of gun fire?
It's either that, or the people with guns are afraid to use them when the time comes and they hesitate too long to do any good.
I've always wondered how people thought the "good guy with a gun" would work in a chaotic real world situation.
They picture it pretty much how it went down here:
Personally, I would just prefer to have a pistol in hand if I ended up in the last part of 'run, hide, fight'.
Yeah they picture it as a very specific scenario with one mass shooter and one retaliatory shooter. Any more than one retaliatory shooter and it all falls apart as OP described though lol.
Well if there is one thing a chaotic and violent situation needs is more guns.
You see, this is why nobody takes sentiments like yours seriously. If you can't defend yourself, and don't have others to protect you, then you'll always be at the mercy of whoever is the strongest.
Something tells me all the 'guns and cops are bad' people don't know how to fight.
I've been looking at your other comments and have some things to say.
Clearly your your out of your mind defending cops on Lemmy.world, for real when is calling the cops ever not put you the caller in a new type of danger? Fools with guns is bad regardless of the context and I for one cannot trust someone I have never met, especially the armed paramilitary we call police here in America.
Nice 'something tells me comment, always makes someone's comments feel real sincere.
Most people can't defend themselves, that's reality. I'm actually pro gun but anti-idiot, and most people are idiots and that deeply complicates your arguments.
Thanks for coming to my Ted talk, I'm not a professional nor frankly good at most things, if you have problems with my arguments please, comment it don't save it to yourself.
Lol. Clearly you're just upset someone isn't a part of the ACAB bandwagon.
Gonna block you now.
I don't even know what that is lol.
All cops are bastards, he's arguing you're anti police.
Im anti shitty cop and by your comments so are you, dudes the worst kind of low effort troll.
Thanks for the context!
I was hoping they would say more, at least try to argue but they blocked me. I have yet to find a pro copper on Lemmy that has the balls to defend them fully.
That's because it's really really difficult to argue for authoritarians when you aren't an authority lol.
Some people just like the taste of boot...
ACAB - All Cops Are Bad
OP is still a tool.
Thanks for the context.
That's okay, the tool is a mass blocker by the looks of it, remember just ignore the people who oppose your views, that's healthy right? Lol.
The B is for Bastards
Gonna block you now.
👍
I SAID, GUNNA BLOCK YOU NOW
Nice, you can't form an argument so you take your ball and run away. You're a child, go back to timeout and let the grownups talk.
Really? Do you think everyone on the internet is worth arguing with?
You’re a child
Lol, the irony. Gonna block you too, bud. Make sure you respond to everyone, though!
Way to prove you're a child and I'm amazed you needed an edit to come up tm with that absolute gem of a comment.
GUNNA BLOCK YOU TOO
Yeah cause when I call the cops about my stolen possessions and raped daughter they do so much to bring justice.
What if you are currently being threatened?
I sure as fuck don't wait around for the cops to show up and decide I'm the threat and kill me while the guy breaking into my house has been gone for 20 minutes.
I'll defend myself how I see fit and the cops will only be called if it results in death.
Do you think you would have a better chance at defending yourself with a gun?
Personally, I think if someone broke into my house, it would be dark...I'd have probably just been woken from a dead sleep. There will be dogs barking...possibly kids also just woken from a dead sleep who are now scared and either calling for me or running towards me. There's no way I can put myself between my family and the bad guys in that situation. If I just start shooting, I'm liable to be shooting in the general direction of a pet or child. Even in the very best scenario, where somehow my kids, my pets, my wife, and my MIL who lives with us all happen to be in my bedroom in the middle of the night I'm still very likely to just shout that we're armed and the police are on the way. Whether they steal a TV or I shoot a TV still results in me needing a new TV...but I also know that statistically, even me having a gun in my home escalates an already tense situation where I'll be groggy but hopped up on adrenaline and not be a reliable shot. Even if it played out how folks like to imagine... one shot, one kill, I've still taken a life in front of my family. That'll result in years of therapy for all of us. I'd rather just get a new TV or whatever. We're more likely to get struck by lightning as a family than have a Richard Ramirez type who broke into the house just to kill us, and it's more likely still that I'll get depressed and use the gun on myself than it is that I'll successfully defend my family with it.
I say all that as someone with military firearms training, family members in the local PD, and as someone who's been woken up in the middle of the night by an emergency (in that case, our house was on fire).
Yes
If you think the cops are actually going to protect you if shit goes down, you're naive as fuck. They're not even obligated to do so.
Yeah. That's why you should have a gun to protect yourself.
Until you become the shooter yourself.
Does that happen to everyone?
Every mentally unstable person with a gun I supposed.
I don’t recall saying cops are useless. Are you sure you’re replying to the right person?
The police do illustrate over and over again that even trained professionals make bad decisions when issued guns. And of course the solution isn’t to escalate things by raising the threat of officers being shot, but instead in finding ways to have less people with guns, so police aren’t on alert all the time and aren’t as tempted to use their guns as their only solution.
As a thought experiment: If we gave every adult in the world access to fire the entire planet’s nuclear payload and destroy everyone, do you think we’d all be safer? Would the world even last 5 minutes?
The more people you give access to deadly weapons, the more likely you are going to run into someone who is stupid, impulsive, or downright crazy and is going to use that weapon to harm themselves or others.
so police aren’t on alert all the time
I got pulled over for not seeing a stop sign at night in a bad neighborhood. I remember the young cop watching my hands with the flashlight and the light was shaking slightly while I searched for my registration.
That was not an enjoyable experience for me or him and it shouldn't have to be anything except mildly annoying. He shouldn't be thinking that I am ready to kill him and I shouldn't be worried that he will make a mistake and me getting shot.
I think you're asking the wrong questions.
You should be asking if society is safer if people have guns than if they don't. Of course, answering this isn't so simple because which society matters.
Uh, this has already been answered. Every developed nation with strict gun control is safer.
Every developed nation with strict gun control is safer.
Lots of rural America is still very underdeveloped. The only protection these people have from threats is the protection they can provide themselves.
This is what I mean by 'which society matters.' There are many differences between nations than just their gun laws.
I think you're confusing "rural America" with a movie called "Mad Max".
Which would have been safer without guns.
In any case, it sounds like what you mean to say is "the lawless hellscapes of the USA need to be civilized by an accountable organisation of some kind", not "guns fix everything, hyuck".
No, I'm not.
I think you are inexperienced with life outside of major cities.
GUNNA BLOCK YOU NOW
Society is never safer with guns, and the more society you have the fewer guns you need.
If you live in barbarism, sure, you might need a gun, but barbarism is antithetical to a healthy society.
I don't think cops are useless, I think they are a flawed institution that we as a society can fix by reforms. And I don't even see the big deal in this, nothing is perfect, everything can be made better or more appropriate for the situation. Long run it would be better for police unions to agree to some changes in training, scope, and methods because it would restore and gain more public trust. And the public will benefit as well.
(Those aren't just the lyrics, that's the name of the song.)
Before clicking, I thought you were quoting from "Sin Wagon," and I thought you really missed the point of the song.
"I'll trick or treat your sorry ass if you don't leave my porch right now, motherfucker!"
"He also shared that just the night before the incident, two people had knocked on their door severally and ran away before he opened the door."
This is what had him terrified
This guy needs to move to someplace remote if someone knocking on his door scares him enough to point a gun at a 6 year old.
Seriously... if you're ready to shoot a couple kids ding-dong-ditching you then you don't need your gun, you need a fucking psych ward.
This was just something kids did when i was growing up. The thought of someone ever coming out with a gun never even crossed our minds. Now it's like you can't go to Target without worrying.
About a half hour from where I live, a college student was killed because she and her friends got lost and turned around in a person's driveway. They were backing out to head away when he came running at them, firing a gun. She got hit in the neck and her boyfriend (in the driver's seat next to her) had to drive with her dying until they could a) get away and b) get good enough cellphone reception to cell 911.
I've turned around in people's driveways many times. At most, I'd expect the homeowners to look through the window at me warily to make sure I'm leaving, not come running at me with guns blazing.
But, sadly, that seems to be the world we're living in.
He needs to be moved to a prison.
Terrified? What does he think the 6 year old is going to do to him?
Move in?
Well, the kid did threathen him with a "Trick" if he din't gave him a "Treat".
He wasn't trick-or-treating.
But surelly it was valid for the grown man with a gun to, given the day of the year it was, fear becoming yet another victim of the blackmail and intimidation of children like that 6 year old and thus having to preventivelly protect himself and his family?!
(/s, by the way)
Maybe he thought it was the "two people that knocked on the door before," not the "6 year old."
See what happens when you use your brain? Life starts to make sense, lol.
You certainly don't open your door with a gun out before even knowing who's on the other side if you're using your brain. lol.
What if you're in fear for your safety?
We don't know what this guy was going through or who he may have angered.
What if you're in fear for your safety?
Then I don't open the door. If it's a real threat I can pew pew after my door gets kicked in and be pretty sure I'm not shooting a six year old.
Although if a six year old manages to break down your door, shooting them is not really unreasonable.
And if they continue harassing you, then what?
Oh, well then the reasonable thing to do is point a gun at a small child, obviously
It could be cops, then you end up either shooting a cop (no big loss, but you're not likely to live through it) or just getting shot.
Then grab the gun and don't open shit, if you thought you were in danger why open the door and let them have easier access to you? Make them break in.
Makes sense to me, but this guy might not be thinking clearly.
Well people get put in jail for "not thinking clearly" every day, so he should "get good."
If you don't have a peephole, invest in a chain lock. Or a Ring. You don't have the right to point a gun at someone just because they're outside your door.
I totally agree, but we don't know what this guy was going through or who he may have angered.
You don't point a gun at a six year old. Full stop. He didn't open the door with his gun drawn and stop when he saw who it was, he waved it in his face to try to scare him. Inexcusable.
I'm not trying to excuse his behavior, just give a reason for it. People do irrational things when they're in fear for their life, and we don't know what this guy was going through. For example, he could owe money to someone and see this as a way to scare his collectors into leaving him alone. Just talking to them wouldn't work, so he might feel more drastic measures are in order.
Think 'cause and effect' instead of 'I'm trying to get out of this.'
Of course he had a reason, just not a good one, hence him being charged.
Just like the police always shoot first because they fear for their safety.
Umm not answer the door?
What a fucking pussy
You probably don't know what he's dealing with or who he's angered.
Yeah, give a paranoid man a gun.
Should he rely on the cops for protection?
From six year olds?
From threats.
Just cause this kid wasn't a threat doesn't mean threats don't exist, lol.
So what did he point the gun at? A threat? Which was a six year old?
So it's always going to be a 6 year old? Never a legitimate threat?
You gonna point the gun at everything until it is a legit threat?
What did he point the gun at? Are you really this dense?
You purposefully trying to frame it as though legitimate threats don't exist.
You're the one who is dense.
I'll leave you and the straw man to your debate then
Remember the guy that shot the woman that was backing out of his driveway? Also remember the guy who shot a door to door salesman? Also remember the guy who shot a kid playing hide and seek?
Sounds like a movie where his friend gave the candy that had intelligence sent by the CCP and now he really needed it back to make it to the drop off on time.
But I'm just daydream at night
Delete this fucker
Did he fire?
One should be able to deduce that the headline would be different if he had. Therefore, one shouldn't even need to read the article to realize that one already has all of the information one needs to know the answer to this question without asking it.
I think it was a rhetorical question to shed light on the fact that he did not fire.
Read the article.
Not really needed:
Mom and daughter goes to drop off goody bag at house, does this, realizes that they dropped it off at the wrong address, goes back to pick it up, shithead point a gun at the daughter's head when they try and pick up the goody bag.
Not really needed:
Yes, it is. The answer is in the link which I already provided. That person's laziness is not my problem.
Memmy didn't show me the parent comment when I made mine, it looked as if your comment was the only one, sorry about that, still learning Lemmy/Memmy
It was a 6 year old boy, also from the MSN article:
He revealed that Wen and his family were in high tension because of several incidents of home disturbances.
The family had allegedly experienced their house doors being "banged at midnight and evening."
Zou said, "His three kids were terrified and worried that somebody tried to break their door and break in." He also shared that just the night before the incident, two people had knocked on their door severally and ran away before he opened the door.
Certainly no excuse for pointing a gun but gives at least a little context to his paranoia.
Then they can buy a fuckin' camera! Probably a better idea than blindly throwing open the front door to point a gun at a child.
This is why the “good guy with the gun” BS needs to die. The real world isn’t a movie: there are no designated heroes and villains. Everyone’s a good guy in their own mind until they point a gun at a 6 year old.
I've always wondered how people thought the "good guy with a gun" would work in a chaotic real world situation. Suppose you're armed and there's a mass shooting event. You pull out your gun and keep a look out for the shooter as you hear gunfire getting closer. Then you spot a guy holding a gun. You quickly take aim and fire...
... And hit another "good guy with a gun" who was trying to take out the mass shooter the same as you.
Oh, but then you get shot by a third "good guy with a gun" who thought YOU were the mass shooter.
Arming everyone and telling them to be "good guys with guns" just seems, at best, like it would lead to MORE injuries and deaths.
Or, as has actually happened before, a good guy with a gun kills the bad guy and then gets shot by the cops who arrive thinking the guy with the gun is the bad guy:
https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/equality/560798-police-chief-hails-good-guy-with-a-gun-after-officer-kills/
Yup, this is how it goes down in my head, and why I don't carry a gun. I think there's a decent chance that I could take down an active shooter (not sure if I have the guts to, but that's beside the point) because I have the element of surprise on my side, but there's an even bigger chance I get shot either in the crossfire or by the police. Most of the time it'll be a single shooter, but I have no guarantee that's the case, so I'd need to be ready for a second shooter.
I've run through a few options, and I just don't see a clear way to distinguish myself from an active shooter.
Of course, the other option is just say "please no don't do it I have a wife and 47 kids!"
You could also try running, yes, or hiding, but "carrying a gun" and "trying to get to an exit or shelter in place and only using said gun if he blocks the exit or finds your hiding spot" are not exactly mutually exclusive, you can do both, you don't have to "run towards the sound of gunfire" like some marine. In fact that would be the much smarter way to do it, "camping" isn't frowned upon in real life, this isn't COD. As for identifying who the shooter is "it's usually the guy shooting unarmed people," but failing that, "better to be sure and confirm your target," unfortunately this puts you at a disadvantage but he's willing to shoot random people and you aren't (I hope), so what're ya gonna do.
Pass gun control rules? And convict people like Rittenhouse.
Unfortunately from a realistic standpoint even with gun control laws this will not be an impossibility, though they may reduce the frequency. There's already upwards of 600,000,000 guns in 50% of the populations hands (and women won't stop buying them, they're the fastest growing group of new gun owners. More specifically black women followed by all women), even if you ban them they'll be out there.
And unfortunately Rittenhouse was textbook self defense, he only shot the guy who grabbed for his gun, and then the guy who hit him with a skateboard and grabbed for his gun, and then the guy who pointed a gun at him, not any of the people who retreated or didn't attack. I know, he lived in a different state and commuted 20 min to kenosha for work every day where his friends and dad lived, but the gun was kept at Dominic Black's house and never "crossed state lines" (also, even if it did, it is legal to cross state lines with a gun so long as it is legal in the state, and WI is far more permissive than IL, any gun legal in IL is legal in WI by far.) Also it is legal for a 17yo to have a gun in WI for some reason. Unfortunately even if we agree with his political opinions we currently can't put him in jail for that, he didn't actually break any laws.
Pass gun control laws and he showed up with a gun he should have gone to jail. Your bff is out there now as a darling of conservative media btw
But he was allowed to show up with a gun in case someone attacked him, can't arrest him for defending himself if he's allowed to do it, as unfortunate as that is. Sorry, I've never met him, you must have me confused with someone else.
You show up somewhere with a gun it is because you are planning on using it. And yeah he is your bff
Well if you plan on defending yourself if necessary, it isn't very much help to you if you leave it at home. Also idk how he can "plan" to be attacked, unless he's on the spice with the prescience. And naw never met him, sorry dude, you're definitely thinking of someone else.
He left his home, and he is your bff
I'm not worried about me identifying the shooter, I'm worried about the police identifying me as the shooter or hostage taker if I somehow shoot the perp but don't kill them.
Best case scenario, I shoot someone and risk getting shot by the police, worst case scenario I get shot by the perp (and even worse, they use my gun to kill people), and average case scenario, I get out alive without using the gun. I just don't see a lot of good things coming out of it. My area is incredibly safe, so the chances of needing it are extremely small, the chances of it helping are even smaller, and the chances of my kids finding it are much higher than I'm comfortable with.
If I was commuting through a bad neighborhood, I could see it being useful. I live and work in safe neighborhoods, so it's not an issue.
Well that's why CCW training tells you to put your gun away if you're sure it's now a safe area, and if it isn't now a safe area (possible other shooters for instance) to GTFO and call the cops and your lawyer. Also why you should give a description of the active shooter if you call it in, so they know "oh this dude in a T shirt may be a defender, we recieved a call about a guy in tac gear." Of course, most often the shooters specifically target gun free zones because you can't have one there, so you technically likely shouldn't have one anyway, so makes sense the cops wouldn't expect a defender in those cases either.
Yeah it's something that everyone needs to decide for themselves (my issue is when people like to decide things for others.) It definitely can be helpful in a specific scenario, like a hammer to a nail, but it is also a responsibility and if you aren't able or willing to, you shouldn't, that simple. Especially if as you say you are you're priviledged enough to live in a good area, in contrast to pizza delivery drivers (well, "ex") who live in bad neighborhoods who may need them.
Agreed, and I'll always defend the right to carry, for those who choose to. I think we should have some extra restrictions, like maybe a CCW for concealable firearms (and subsequent training), plus proof of secure storage in some manner if you have kids.
The only place I'd carry is at work, and it's against company policy to carry. So I don't, it's just not worth the risk and the likelihood that I'd need it is so remote.
Well a CCW is already required in most states to carry except for those recently lightening restrictions. Secure storage is iffy, because the supreme court already ruled it invalidates the right to self defense (most home invaders aren't kind enough to wait until you get your safe open to duel you, they typically just steal the guns from your safe after forcing you to open it at gunpoint when you ask if they'll hold up a sec, and then use those in subseqent crimes.)
And yeah I hear that, unfortunately the fact that your work bans guns even with a CCW means that if you ever do need it, it'll probably be there, gun free zones being the typical targets, and disgruntled employees and all. But I totally understand that it becomes not worth the risk then, you'd either have to risk being found out and fired or keep it in the car which while sometimes necessary because "gun free zone" always feels like you're forced to leave a gun where it can be (and they often are) easily stolen.
Secure storage is mostly for people with kids or at-risk individuals at home.
Secure storage against burglary doesn't exist; if they want your guns, they'll just grind their way in or steal the safe to grind later. Expecting home owners to protect against that absolutely just isn't practical, the goal should be keeping curious (or determined) kids from getting in, and deterring theft from burglary should be a nice side-effect. Unfortunately, most gun locks fail that standard.
Yeah, I'm not going to escape a building with an active shooter to retrieve a gun and go back in. If I know I need it and it's in my car, it might as well be at home. And keeping it in the car is just asking for trouble from an officer, they seem to be easily spooked by such things. Fortunately, I'm white, so I'll probably get the benefit of the doubt, but it's just not something I'm interested in testing.
But if there was an incident in my office, I'd be screwed. There are three exits:
So basically, my options aren't great. Yet I still think I'm net better off not carrying.
As a kid who notoriously defeated locks and found hidden items: good luck. My parents didn't have guns to find but my uncle taught me about them when I was like 10 so tbh they were never really some mystical artifact to play with to me, I'd already shot a few, knew how to use them safely and not to do so without an adult, etc. Conversely nobody educated me about alcohol instead figuring locks would work, hehe. Surprise!
No lol you said work banned them, so people who work there and carry outside of work (maybe they have a life [sorry lol you seem cool but it was too perfect]) have to leave their gun in the car and put it in their pants at 5:00, so, were you to carry, you'd have to also do that. That is what I meant. Problem being, that rule makes for a good scenario for a gun thief. If there were an active shooter and you get out, fuck your coworkers that's their problem, take your gun and go home (unless you wanted to help them because you like them or they're humans or something, point being you aren't obligated to.) As for cops, if you are following the laws (and yeah white helps, but that is another issue that needs to be fixed) they actually seem to think you're on their side because "gun and following laws," oddly they started treating me with some semblance of respect, it was kinda weird.
Exactly ideal tbh, egress and alarm with one action? AND close? Sounds great.
Also a likely point of entry for the shooter, definitely terrible.
Kinda having trouble visualizing this but it doesn't sound great, best bet is the emergency or shelter in place, but SIP is hampered by lack of last ditch weapon. I'd push it out that door.
Yeah I'd agree, simply since it'd be illegal. Functionally, even if I'm heading for that exit or sheltering, I'd rather have a hail mary even if some situations are a Kobyashi Maru, but since it would be illegal to have in the gun free zone, you don't have a choice anyway.
I watch LockPickingLawyer on YouTube, and it seems every gun lock/safe has some gaping security issue, and many that I see at stores that haven't been covered look like they'd have similar issues.
So until I find something that LPL would approve for use around kids, I'm not buying a handgun.
That said, I'll probably get a small rifle soon (probably 22lr) that I can store in the attic. My kids could find it, it would take a lot of effort and it isn't that interesting. I mostly want it to teach my kids to shoot "real" guns (they've shot BB guns) and maybe go hunt some rabbits. I may also get a 22lr pistol, but that's a bit higher on the "cool" factor and thus higher risk.
If I find a lock that I can trust, I might pick up a 9mm or .357 for personal use. I've taken my wife shooting, and she really liked it, so I'd like to take her out to fed land and shoot sometimes. If I did, I'd get a CCW (unnecessary in my state, but necessary for travel) and carry sometimes when I go out to get comfortable with it. But the lock comes first.
Our muster point for most emergencies is right out front of our building, in full view of the front doors and windows where the shooter is likely to be. Our active shooter muster point (blue light alarm) is across the street behind the building in a parking garage (can see from the rear balcony, but there's a place to hide).
If I trigger the fire alarm, people will go right into the shooter's path. If someone else pulls it (far more likely), I would go right out front into the shooter's path. The alarm would also increase the shooter's stress level, which could be the difference between them shooting and not.
It's an office building built into a hill. The front is ground level and the rear has a ledge/balcony about 2 floors above the rear ground level that runs the length of the building in either direction. One side of the building has a parking garage, and the other has the truck loading zone down one level. Here's some crappy ASCII art (top is front, I work bottom right, t is truck loading, p is parking garage, XX is building, and | and - are the railing).
I work near the parking garage, and the no-alarm exit is ~2/3 of the way across the building toward the truck loading zone. From there, I can either run back to the parking garage (lots of windows), or toward the truck loading zone (some windows, drop onto cement).
It's not a gun free zone, it's merely against company policy and probably landlord policy. There is no posted signage, but I did need to sign something when I started acknowledging that I understand the rules. So violation wouldn't result in a criminal case, but it could result in my termination and/or official trespass order.
It's possible some people here carry (constitutional carry state), but given company policy, that number is probably pretty low. I would certainly risk violating that rule if I believed there was an elevated risk, like we fired someone over culture fit reasons (I'd probably just WFH honestly), otherwise I'd comply.
It’s deflective rhetoric so they don’t have to address the truth:
We don’t know who is going to make a bad decision with their gun until after they do it.
Yeah, my coworkers said how great it would have been after the Colorado movie theater shooting (Batman movie) if everyone was armed. They just knew the original shooter would have been killed right away.
So,
Who in their right mind thinks basically everyone wouldn't have been mowed down in a hail of gun fire?
It's either that, or the people with guns are afraid to use them when the time comes and they hesitate too long to do any good.
They picture it pretty much how it went down here:
Personally, I would just prefer to have a pistol in hand if I ended up in the last part of 'run, hide, fight'.
Yeah they picture it as a very specific scenario with one mass shooter and one retaliatory shooter. Any more than one retaliatory shooter and it all falls apart as OP described though lol.
Well if there is one thing a chaotic and violent situation needs is more guns.
"There are no good guys with guns."
also
"Cops are useless."
You see, this is why nobody takes sentiments like yours seriously. If you can't defend yourself, and don't have others to protect you, then you'll always be at the mercy of whoever is the strongest.
Something tells me all the 'guns and cops are bad' people don't know how to fight.
I've been looking at your other comments and have some things to say.
Clearly your your out of your mind defending cops on Lemmy.world, for real when is calling the cops ever not put you the caller in a new type of danger? Fools with guns is bad regardless of the context and I for one cannot trust someone I have never met, especially the armed paramilitary we call police here in America.
Nice 'something tells me comment, always makes someone's comments feel real sincere.
Most people can't defend themselves, that's reality. I'm actually pro gun but anti-idiot, and most people are idiots and that deeply complicates your arguments.
Thanks for coming to my Ted talk, I'm not a professional nor frankly good at most things, if you have problems with my arguments please, comment it don't save it to yourself.
Lol. Clearly you're just upset someone isn't a part of the ACAB bandwagon.
Gonna block you now.
I don't even know what that is lol.
All cops are bastards, he's arguing you're anti police.
Im anti shitty cop and by your comments so are you, dudes the worst kind of low effort troll.
Thanks for the context!
I was hoping they would say more, at least try to argue but they blocked me. I have yet to find a pro copper on Lemmy that has the balls to defend them fully.
That's because it's really really difficult to argue for authoritarians when you aren't an authority lol.
Some people just like the taste of boot...
ACAB - All Cops Are Bad
OP is still a tool.
Thanks for the context.
That's okay, the tool is a mass blocker by the looks of it, remember just ignore the people who oppose your views, that's healthy right? Lol.
The B is for Bastards
Gonna block you now.
👍
I SAID, GUNNA BLOCK YOU NOW
Nice, you can't form an argument so you take your ball and run away. You're a child, go back to timeout and let the grownups talk.
Really? Do you think everyone on the internet is worth arguing with?
Lol, the irony. Gonna block you too, bud. Make sure you respond to everyone, though!
Way to prove you're a child and I'm amazed you needed an edit to come up tm with that absolute gem of a comment.
GUNNA BLOCK YOU TOO
Yeah cause when I call the cops about my stolen possessions and raped daughter they do so much to bring justice.
What if you are currently being threatened?
I sure as fuck don't wait around for the cops to show up and decide I'm the threat and kill me while the guy breaking into my house has been gone for 20 minutes.
I'll defend myself how I see fit and the cops will only be called if it results in death.
Do you think you would have a better chance at defending yourself with a gun?
Personally, I think if someone broke into my house, it would be dark...I'd have probably just been woken from a dead sleep. There will be dogs barking...possibly kids also just woken from a dead sleep who are now scared and either calling for me or running towards me. There's no way I can put myself between my family and the bad guys in that situation. If I just start shooting, I'm liable to be shooting in the general direction of a pet or child. Even in the very best scenario, where somehow my kids, my pets, my wife, and my MIL who lives with us all happen to be in my bedroom in the middle of the night I'm still very likely to just shout that we're armed and the police are on the way. Whether they steal a TV or I shoot a TV still results in me needing a new TV...but I also know that statistically, even me having a gun in my home escalates an already tense situation where I'll be groggy but hopped up on adrenaline and not be a reliable shot. Even if it played out how folks like to imagine... one shot, one kill, I've still taken a life in front of my family. That'll result in years of therapy for all of us. I'd rather just get a new TV or whatever. We're more likely to get struck by lightning as a family than have a Richard Ramirez type who broke into the house just to kill us, and it's more likely still that I'll get depressed and use the gun on myself than it is that I'll successfully defend my family with it.
I say all that as someone with military firearms training, family members in the local PD, and as someone who's been woken up in the middle of the night by an emergency (in that case, our house was on fire).
Yes
If you think the cops are actually going to protect you if shit goes down, you're naive as fuck. They're not even obligated to do so.
Yeah. That's why you should have a gun to protect yourself.
Until you become the shooter yourself.
Does that happen to everyone?
Every mentally unstable person with a gun I supposed.
I don’t recall saying cops are useless. Are you sure you’re replying to the right person?
The police do illustrate over and over again that even trained professionals make bad decisions when issued guns. And of course the solution isn’t to escalate things by raising the threat of officers being shot, but instead in finding ways to have less people with guns, so police aren’t on alert all the time and aren’t as tempted to use their guns as their only solution.
As a thought experiment: If we gave every adult in the world access to fire the entire planet’s nuclear payload and destroy everyone, do you think we’d all be safer? Would the world even last 5 minutes?
The more people you give access to deadly weapons, the more likely you are going to run into someone who is stupid, impulsive, or downright crazy and is going to use that weapon to harm themselves or others.
I got pulled over for not seeing a stop sign at night in a bad neighborhood. I remember the young cop watching my hands with the flashlight and the light was shaking slightly while I searched for my registration.
That was not an enjoyable experience for me or him and it shouldn't have to be anything except mildly annoying. He shouldn't be thinking that I am ready to kill him and I shouldn't be worried that he will make a mistake and me getting shot.
I think you're asking the wrong questions.
You should be asking if society is safer if people have guns than if they don't. Of course, answering this isn't so simple because which society matters.
Uh, this has already been answered. Every developed nation with strict gun control is safer.
Lots of rural America is still very underdeveloped. The only protection these people have from threats is the protection they can provide themselves.
This is what I mean by 'which society matters.' There are many differences between nations than just their gun laws.
I think you're confusing "rural America" with a movie called "Mad Max".
Which would have been safer without guns.
In any case, it sounds like what you mean to say is "the lawless hellscapes of the USA need to be civilized by an accountable organisation of some kind", not "guns fix everything, hyuck".
No, I'm not.
I think you are inexperienced with life outside of major cities.
GUNNA BLOCK YOU NOW
Society is never safer with guns, and the more society you have the fewer guns you need.
If you live in barbarism, sure, you might need a gun, but barbarism is antithetical to a healthy society.
I don't think cops are useless, I think they are a flawed institution that we as a society can fix by reforms. And I don't even see the big deal in this, nothing is perfect, everything can be made better or more appropriate for the situation. Long run it would be better for police unions to agree to some changes in training, scope, and methods because it would restore and gain more public trust. And the public will benefit as well.
🎶 This is America 🎶
Don't catch you slipping now
"Praaaaaise the loooord and pass the ammunition!" https://youtu.be/TUOPvtVZwo8
(Those aren't just the lyrics, that's the name of the song.)
Before clicking, I thought you were quoting from "Sin Wagon," and I thought you really missed the point of the song.
"I'll trick or treat your sorry ass if you don't leave my porch right now, motherfucker!"
"He also shared that just the night before the incident, two people had knocked on their door severally and ran away before he opened the door."
This is what had him terrified
This guy needs to move to someplace remote if someone knocking on his door scares him enough to point a gun at a 6 year old.
Seriously... if you're ready to shoot a couple kids ding-dong-ditching you then you don't need your gun, you need a fucking psych ward.
This was just something kids did when i was growing up. The thought of someone ever coming out with a gun never even crossed our minds. Now it's like you can't go to Target without worrying.
About a half hour from where I live, a college student was killed because she and her friends got lost and turned around in a person's driveway. They were backing out to head away when he came running at them, firing a gun. She got hit in the neck and her boyfriend (in the driver's seat next to her) had to drive with her dying until they could a) get away and b) get good enough cellphone reception to cell 911.
I've turned around in people's driveways many times. At most, I'd expect the homeowners to look through the window at me warily to make sure I'm leaving, not come running at me with guns blazing.
But, sadly, that seems to be the world we're living in.
He needs to be moved to a prison.
Terrified? What does he think the 6 year old is going to do to him?
Move in?
Well, the kid did threathen him with a "Trick" if he din't gave him a "Treat".
He wasn't trick-or-treating.
But surelly it was valid for the grown man with a gun to, given the day of the year it was, fear becoming yet another victim of the blackmail and intimidation of children like that 6 year old and thus having to preventivelly protect himself and his family?!
(/s, by the way)
Maybe he thought it was the "two people that knocked on the door before," not the "6 year old."
See what happens when you use your brain? Life starts to make sense, lol.
You certainly don't open your door with a gun out before even knowing who's on the other side if you're using your brain. lol.
What if you're in fear for your safety?
We don't know what this guy was going through or who he may have angered.
Then I don't open the door. If it's a real threat I can pew pew after my door gets kicked in and be pretty sure I'm not shooting a six year old.
Although if a six year old manages to break down your door, shooting them is not really unreasonable.
And if they continue harassing you, then what?
Oh, well then the reasonable thing to do is point a gun at a small child, obviously
It could be cops, then you end up either shooting a cop (no big loss, but you're not likely to live through it) or just getting shot.
Then grab the gun and don't open shit, if you thought you were in danger why open the door and let them have easier access to you? Make them break in.
Makes sense to me, but this guy might not be thinking clearly.
Well people get put in jail for "not thinking clearly" every day, so he should "get good."
If you don't have a peephole, invest in a chain lock. Or a Ring. You don't have the right to point a gun at someone just because they're outside your door.
I totally agree, but we don't know what this guy was going through or who he may have angered.
You don't point a gun at a six year old. Full stop. He didn't open the door with his gun drawn and stop when he saw who it was, he waved it in his face to try to scare him. Inexcusable.
I'm not trying to excuse his behavior, just give a reason for it. People do irrational things when they're in fear for their life, and we don't know what this guy was going through. For example, he could owe money to someone and see this as a way to scare his collectors into leaving him alone. Just talking to them wouldn't work, so he might feel more drastic measures are in order.
Think 'cause and effect' instead of 'I'm trying to get out of this.'
Of course he had a reason, just not a good one, hence him being charged.
Just like the police always shoot first because they fear for their safety.
Umm not answer the door?
What a fucking pussy
You probably don't know what he's dealing with or who he's angered.
Yeah, give a paranoid man a gun.
Should he rely on the cops for protection?
From six year olds?
From threats.
Just cause this kid wasn't a threat doesn't mean threats don't exist, lol.
So what did he point the gun at? A threat? Which was a six year old?
So it's always going to be a 6 year old? Never a legitimate threat?
You gonna point the gun at everything until it is a legit threat?
What did he point the gun at? Are you really this dense?
You purposefully trying to frame it as though legitimate threats don't exist.
You're the one who is dense.
I'll leave you and the straw man to your debate then
Remember the guy that shot the woman that was backing out of his driveway? Also remember the guy who shot a door to door salesman? Also remember the guy who shot a kid playing hide and seek?
Take his fucking guns away!
Were there a bunch of snickers and Reese's in that bag or was he just insane
They better have been king sized.
Imagine doing time for "fun" sized
Idk quantity has a quality all its own, let's hear more about total ounces
Well, then he'll be enjoying some "fun" sized in jail.
Airheads and Sourpatch kids
So he chose the trick.
Jesus fuck.
Finally, some good news on News@lemmy.world!
Username checks out.
Guy’s gotta have hobby.
Game is game, kid.
https://youtu.be/Y2RMSpTsMUU?si=LTLtChImzwAt5wix
Not so fast
Sounds like a movie where his friend gave the candy that had intelligence sent by the CCP and now he really needed it back to make it to the drop off on time.
But I'm just daydream at night
Delete this fucker
Did he fire?
One should be able to deduce that the headline would be different if he had. Therefore, one shouldn't even need to read the article to realize that one already has all of the information one needs to know the answer to this question without asking it.
I think it was a rhetorical question to shed light on the fact that he did not fire.
Read the article.
Not really needed:
Mom and daughter goes to drop off goody bag at house, does this, realizes that they dropped it off at the wrong address, goes back to pick it up, shithead point a gun at the daughter's head when they try and pick up the goody bag.
Yes, it is. The answer is in the link which I already provided. That person's laziness is not my problem.
Memmy didn't show me the parent comment when I made mine, it looked as if your comment was the only one, sorry about that, still learning Lemmy/Memmy
It was a 6 year old boy, also from the MSN article:
Certainly no excuse for pointing a gun but gives at least a little context to his paranoia.
Then they can buy a fuckin' camera! Probably a better idea than blindly throwing open the front door to point a gun at a child.
Shithead? I think you mean "legal gun owner".
Reading the article? On
RedditLemmy?? Ain't nobody got time for that