Now this is the kind of critical thinking I strive for. Fuck both of them
Most sane discourse I've seen on the Internet so far.
Both sides of this conflict suck ass. What an absolute shit show. I feel for all the innocents affected.
Yes. Both off them.
Is there a list of Hamas' demands published somewhere? Cause I don't see it in the article...
I'm genuinely curious as to whether it's an achievable list of demands vs ludicrous posturing that has no chance of ever being met.
I'm pretty sure the raison d'etre of Hamas is just "death to Israel"
Yes the abolishment of the oppressive genocidal ethno state of israel is indeed their goal.
I'm pretty sure the raison d'être of Nelson Mandela and the ANC was to end the Apartheid in South Africa as well.
Violent resistance groups don't just magically spawn out of thin air.
They’re a terrorist organisation and use terrorist methods. They don’t even care if Palestinians get killed. Can’t believe you’re equating them with Nelson Mandela 😂
The Apartheid in South Africa didn't end with Mandela going on a hunger strike my friend. That's the funny story the US tells you afterwards
They regained their rights using the same methods that were used to take their rights away.
Violence.
Mandela was on the American "terror" watch list until 2008
Yep. Him and Winnie were infamous for putting tyres around the necks of their victims, filling the tyres with petrol, then lighting em up. Amnesty international wouldn't go near him for a very long time. This came up in my Facebook memories a couple of days ago, the dude was a monster. Personally, I don't think the ends justified the means, but I know they did for many, and I know for even more they don't know the whole story...
It seems his wife Winnie was openly advocating for it while Mandela was in prison but I can't find him associating with it.
Necklacing was used by the black community to punish its members who were perceived as collaborators with the apartheid government.[2] Necklacing was primarily used on black police informants; the practice was often carried out in the name of the struggle, although the executive body of the African National Congress (ANC), the most broadly supported South African opposition movement, condemned it.[3][4] In 1986, Winnie Mandela, then-wife of the imprisoned Nelson Mandela, and who herself had endured torture and four imprisonments to a total of two years,[5] stated, "With our boxes of matches, and our necklaces, we shall liberate this country", which was widely seen as an explicit endorsement of necklacing.[6][7] This caused the ANC to initially distance itself from her,[8] although she later took on a number of official positions within the party.[8]
Spear of the Nation was the paramilitary wing of the African National Congress (ANC), and was founded by Nelson Mandela.
Palestine is more of an ethnostate than israel lol.
Number one is the complete removal of Israel always. So highly doubtful.
Do you have the actual list that shows this is part of their current "list of demands"?
I realize that was part of the Hamas charter, but that's a different beast than what sounds like their current list of demands. This would be an example of a ludicrous demand that is just for show rather than a serious negotiation.
They want a ceasefire, the blockade to be loosened and the release of all Palestinian prisoners in Israel. All things that shouldn't need even need negotiation to happen in a non-Apartheid state.
Is there an actual published list of demands somewhere that is cite-able?
The Hamas leadership has said that the objectives of the attacks are ending “Israeli violations”, securing the release of Palestinian prisoners, and “returning to the project of establishing a state”
Israeli violations can be understood to main airstrikes and other military action against Gaza, though it's unclear if it includes the blockade.
Unfortunately you're right, it doesn't say a whole lot.
While Hamas may appear to have fulfilled its declared short-term goals of deterring Israeli violations of Al-Aqsa Mosque and taking hostages to bargain for the release of Palestinian political prisoners held in Israeli jails, it does not appear to have a long-term end game.
and later
Three days into Hamas’s surprising and overwhelming attack, it is not clear what its end game is and what it can do to reap long-term benefits. Its priority has seemed to be to take both military and civilian hostages to help deter aggressive Israeli retaliation and later exchange them for Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails.
Which contradicts the idea in the OP article stating about Hamas' "demands."
The closet thing I could find was this:
The Hamas leadership has said that the objectives of the attacks are ending “Israeli violations”, securing the release of Palestinian prisoners, and “returning to the project of establishing a state”.
Which are certainly objectives, but not specific enough to be demands.
Searching for "hamas' list of demands" online, there are several articles similar to the one above that reference it, but no list of demands that I can see. The closest things I can find are the 1988 and 2017 Hamas charters, which aren't particularly specific other than the original one calls for the eradication of Israel and the Jews, and the revised one just calls for the eradication of Israel... which isn't exactly a demand as much as an aspiration, and is kind of a moot point because it doesn't seem like something that would be accepted by Israel.
So I'm still looking for an actual list of demands...
Thank you for properly seeking sources for information instead of just blindly believing what someone on a forum tells you.
Ironically I'm still getting shit upon by one or two freakish trolls for simply asking questions and engaging in dialog.
It's kind of annoying that the block feature doesn't work right, since I still get notifications whenever people I've blocked comment.
Which are certainly objectives, but not specific enough to be demands.
Not really? "Release Palestinian prisoners" and "stop Israeli violations" at least are definitely demands, and from what I found they also want Israel to stop flying drones over Gaza. That said, yeah, I guess not much has been made public.
Well for an actual "list of demands" I would expect things like "release these people:" followed by a list of names, and "stop doing these violations:" followed by a list of the violations they are accusing Israel of. "Release everybody" and "stop doing bad things" are technically demands, but they're not the kind of things you'd expect in an actual list of specific demands. Those certainly work as summaries of the demands, but I was hoping that some news agency would have an actual list of the specific things Hamas is demanding in order to release the hostages rather than just "do everything we want." I've seen them mention the drones in another article, which I suspect must be one of the things on the actual list.
"Release everyone" is one of their actual demands. Usually Hamas milks hostages for as many Palestinian prisoners as they're worth, and this time they have a lot of hostages so it should be in line with historical "exchange rates", so to speak, given that many of the hostages are soldiers, which have more value as hostages. Good point on the violations thing, though, it's frankly perplexing that they nobody is publishing an actual list.
If something as vague as "release everyone" or "release all Palestinians in Israeli jails" or whatever is one of their actual demands, it's unfortunate, because it makes it sound more like they're not serious and are just making impossible demands that they know will not/can not be met as an excuse to continue fighting but to give off the appearance of working for peace. Just as if "the eradication of the Israeli state" were one of their demands. But I can't really accuse them of that yet since I haven't seen an actual list of demands and we're both just speculating at this stage.
because it makes it sound more like they're not serious and are just making impossible demands that they know will not/can not be met as an excuse to continue fighting but to give off the appearance of working for peace.
Why not? I think they got Israel to release 1200 Palestinian prisoners for one soldier before. That's why I said there's historical precedent. Releasing all Palestinian prisoners is far from an impossible demand.
It's the vagueness that's the problem. Without lists of who is to be released, it just becomes Israel's word of who is there or not. It could be 100 people or 10,000 people. I suspect Hamas is far more aware of who is imprisoned and how much they are worth. Like, is Hamas demanding the release of random violent criminals, rapists, car thieves, etc. solely because of their ethnicity? I doubt it. But they'll want their fighters back, and any political prisoners, stuff like that.
Yeah makes sense.
And one of those released went on to mastermind the Oct 7 atrocities.
There are 2M Palestinians living within the borders that Israel claims as it's own. There are 8M Israelis (that figure includes Palestinian Israelis). Palestinians would need to hold roughly 1/5 of all gov't positions in order for them to be anything other than a token minority. But they don't. In fact, it's not even close. The US, despite it's 200+ year racist and patriarchal history, has better representation of non-white and non-male people in Congress--as a proportion of the population--than Israel does.
What territories are you describing when you say "within the borders that Israel claims as it's own."
The West Bank, which is occupied territory. E.g., it's not part of Israel under international law, but Israel claims it as its own.
Ty for clarifying, West Bank settlements are absolutely abhorrent, but I've seen too many people use the phrase claimed territory to refer to all of Israel. I appreciate the response and clarification
IMO, the 1947 UN borders are fairly reasonable, and Jerusalem should probably be administered by rotating 3rd parties (since there's no way that Israel and Palestine can realistically jointly govern Jerusalem due to how religiously charged it is).
In the USA, there are 3 African-American senators out of 100. There have been only 3 African American governors in history.
There are 9 ethnic minority members of French parliament out of 577, despite making up about 15% of the population.
Ethnic minorities represent 10% of the UK Parliament, despite being 16% of the population.
In Israel, there are 10 seats in the Knesset representing Arab/Palestinian parties out of 120.
Underrepresentation of minorities is a widespread global problem that is not limited to Israel. Pretending that the the rest of the world is some kind of post-racial utopia, while only Israel experiences racial inequality is cynical at best.
Look at state legislators, mayors, etc. Yeah, the US is gerrymandered to shit, and SCOTUS is gutting the civil rights and voting rights acts. But at least at a state level, non-white people have better representation. In my state, Republicans are currently fighting a federal court order to redraw voting districts because they under-represented black populations, but that city has a black mayor, and a majority black city council. Yeah, the US has a problem with racism. But the US doesn't send in the military to run Atlanta because they don't want black and Latino people to have a say in the government.
Israel broke the ceasefire by invading Al Aqsa before Oct 7 it was the direct reason for the attack.
Also israel refused to extend the ceasefire agreement and were probably the first party that threw bombs on 30 nov.
Lay off the IDF propaganda for a bit.
So, a third ceasefire now, with them starting new attacks within 30 minutes or less? Or are we past third yet?
It's like the 17th ceasefire with Hamas. They just use them to rebuild their rocket supplies, then break them when they're ready.
I mean Israel doesn't follow its ceasefires. What do they expect will happen? Despite two agreements stipulating that the blockade would be lifted and air strikes would stop neither happened.
Internet libs love to tell people how they should fight for their rights. I wonder if anyone has considered holding a bake sale in Gaza? Maybe then both sides can sit down and talk? Maybe Israel just doesn't know committing genocide is bad? Does Hamas know Israel wants to commit genocide? Does Israel know Palestinians feel pain and suffering?
It's impossible to know without DiALoGuE.
Jubilee did a Middle Ground on Israel/Palestine. It went how you’d expect.
I think you're confusing Hamas firing rockets for Israeli ones. Or maybe you're intentionally miss stating those.
Many of those prisoners are there after participating in terrorist activities, many of them murdering lots of innocent civilians. The only reason they're still there is because Israel does not have the death penalty.
And about 1100 are there without charge.
They need to release hostages for a ceasefire. You know, those they just said they will kill. Try to keep up.
Release the hostages and then what? Lose all their leverage? I can bet you right now if they release the hostages outside of an actual ceasefire agreements none of their demands will be met.
No keep raping and drugging them. That will get them closer to the goal.
That's... Not happening to my knowledge. Where did you get that from?
Are you serious? After so many news talking about drugged up kids which were released in hostage exchange and naked woman being dragged through the city and spat on you actually question whether hostages are abused?
Oh in that case we're talking about different things. There are hostages who were abused the moment they were taken. The people who abused those need to be punished, no questions asked. There are then hostages that weren't. Those weren't abused after being taken into the tunnels, or at least weren't sexually assaulted. The former is a fact, the latter is a claim even the IDF walked back on.
After they release all the hostages they're going to nurder? You mean what happens then? IDK, what do you thibk?
I think Israel will take over Gaza like it used to before 2005 (they've actually stated this), and Palestinians prisoners will continue rotting in the Israeli military prison system. I also think Palestinian resistance will be mercilessly crushed. Why do you ask?
Well, in your boot licking eyes, it can only be the latter even if the only demand is "Everyone stops killing people."
Lol what the fuck is your problem?
I ask a question, making me a boot licker. So I guess people who never ask questions, like you, are what... ?
Fucking trolls is what.
You and the boot licking pro genocide bile you constantly spew.
Yes, but Hamas did start the war so it’s not that simple
Even if you ignore the Nakba, the war started in 1967 with the Israeli occupation of territory now claimed by the State of Palestine.
No. It started earlier. Like 5000BC
Original sin argument. Bold.
Its all the same with minor deviations.
No...
No they didn't.
They tried to go for a rebel strike that might make Israel pause and think about their constant ongoing oppression and slaughter, but Papa Biden was there to make sure that didn't work.
It wasn't bad enough that white nation's went in, stole their land, and displaced them.
America had been depending on Israel to buy and use their guns and ammunition the whole time through to prop up the military industrial complex and give America a toe-hold across the Pacific.
Plenty of bootlicking Americans around to deny that long and horrific history though.
Just for anyone who might happen to care about facts, Israel is not a "white nation", and most of its citizens actually originate from the Middle East from Jewish communities in Arab countries that were expelled in the 50s and 60s. Ashkenazi Jews from Europe are a significant group, but they're not a majority. Most Arab countries had Jewish communities for well over 2000 years before being forcibly expelled due to Arab anger after the formation of Israel.
The synagogue of Baghdad, for instance, was built 2500 years ago. A synagogue on the outskirts of Damascus was build 2700 years ago. The synagogue of Aleppo dates nearly 3000 years ago, where it housed a set of Hebrew Bible scrolls from around the year 1000 until they were removed following anti-Jewish riots in 1947. Libya has a synagogue from c. 1060. Cairo has 12 synagogues, but less than 10 Egyptian Jews. In Yemen, evidence of Jewish community dates back 2500 years. In 1949 and 1950, 50,000 Yemeni Jews were evacuated to Israel in the face of growing persecution and backlash to the creation of Israel. By 2009, there were about 350 Jews left in Yemen, and following the Civil War in Yemen and strong persecution from the Houthis, there are less than 10 Jews remaining in Yemen, essentially ending over 2500 years of Jewish history in Yemen.
To describe Israel as nothing but a bunch of white Europeans is simply inaccurate and erases the millennia-long history of Jewish communities throughout the entire Middle East.
Sir, no one told me being humane would require reading. I’d like to speak to the manager. /s
This is the reason you give for murder and rape of innocent people? This is your justification? You are morally repugnant
You are morally repugnant
As is the IDF and Netanyahu for continuing to murder Palestinians, journalists and innocent children by the thousands.
And kettling Palestinians in southern Gaza so it's easier to bomb/kill them.
There is no justification for the atrocities committed on Oct 7th. The more I read your tripe the sicker I feel for mankind.
I CAN NOT wait for you to give the justification for what Israel has done to Palestine every day for over 50 years.
Hint: Its murder and rape.
Show me where Isreal killed women as they raped them then mutilated their bodies you sick SOB.
Unverified fear-bait.
There's no shortage on stories of cases where Israeli soldiers rape Palestinians --of any gender. In terms of murder, we know which side has the higher body count, so let's not pretend we don't.
I wouldn't recommend citing an Iranian Revolutionary Guard operated propaganda website as a credible source. Perhaps you should examine more critically where you are getting your news from.
Can I blame Hamas for fighting fire with fire? No.
Jesus I hate you fucking fruit fly memoried bandwagoning genocidal bastards.
Sure chief. Show me where Israelis behead people. Show me where they burn them alive. Get out of here with that false equivalency
Just say it. Just call them savages you want exterminated.
You don't care about death or suffering, you care about how "impure and backwards they are". To be cleaned for "progress"
You're building up to it, just speak plainly. You want to improve the land of Palestine by clearing out the savages. It's the genocidal colonial logic you subscribe to. Let people know who you are.
First you say what you really feel. The Jews deserved it, right? It's on the tip of your tongue
No.
The Israelis deserved it.
Separate Jew and Israeli in your mind.
Israel isn't Jewish. It was taken from Palestine to be given to the Jews as reparation for the Nazi genocide, but that was a long ass time ago, Israel is not entirely Jewish anymore, and now Israel is the country doing a genocide.
That's kind of implied in the concept of hostages, yes.
It's only going to get worse.
In a few years you'll have an entire generation of adult Palestinians that have lived under blockade in an open-air Gaza prison. It's an apartheid and Israel is an apartheid state.
Treating people with that kind of barbarism creates a lot of anger and a lot of people are going to think they don't have anything to lose by fighting back.
Haven't they been living in an open air prison since about 1948? I'm pretty sure they're working on the 4th generation to grow up in those conditions.
Yes, but it's grown progressively much worse, particularly since they were blockaded 16 years ago.
I think the next Osama Bin Laden is currently hanging out somewhere in Palestine, and when they surface in the next decade or two, their manifesto will sound eerily similar to the one OBL wrote about the embargo the US placed on Iraq, which starved millions of people and led to the rise of Al Qaeda.
I think Egypt and Israel blockaded the Gaza strip after Hamas won the election ~2006. I think the WB is not blockaded since they have the PA though.
You're slightly off. The blockade started 3 months before Hamas won the elections.
Bin Laden was actually a rich Saudi guy that gave up his life of riches to help fight the Afghan Muslims against the Russians who wanted to colonize Afghanistan.
Then when they defeated the Russians he turned against America because they were colonizing Palestine
Tbh I doubt at this point we will have a next generation of gazans
A lot of people thought the same thing about the Vietnamese. It's a lot harder these days to wipe out an entire population than it was in the 1800's, though not for lack of trying.
Historically nations that have wholly wiped out other nations of people have needed a pandemic that they're immune to in order to accomplish it.
Yeah, the Israeli citizenship fucking hates the guy. His admin also pulled IDF troops away from the Gazan border prior to the attack even though some of the IDF officers warned of an impending attack.
Fuck that guy and his insane administration.
The US certainly does.
With Bibi or the Quartards? You can't not elaborate on that bit of juicy steak
Yes.
Bro...no more treats until you serve the main course
Both Qatar and Israel are major US strategic military allies.
Is the US complicit in Hamas' operations/survival?
As the US has been beside Israel from day 1, and Israel helped form Hamas, at the very least the US is indirectly complicit.
Yahya Sinwar is calling the shots from a tunnel in Gaza according to what I read,but it could be wrong. The IDF has been getting intel from captured Hamas.
Like how OP is trying to hype up IDF as if they didn't lose a slew of tanks to some Hamas fighters literally walking in with RPGs and probably being as old and as competently trained as high-schoolers.
Eisenhower and Ford are watching in embarrassment as they use a metric ton of the latest in advanced guided weaponry to deal with an insurgency that only has hostages because Mossad was sitting on its ass for a whole year.
Hamas will get crushed eventually, but I'm surprised they kept up this game for so long with only like 200 hostages. Lockheed's CEO would probably shake hands with their leader if he could for generating such a huge amount of arms sales.
Eisenhower and ford? Do you know the history of the korean and vietnam wars? Lol
The only reason hamas isnt ass blasted right now is because they hide among civilians.
The carriers, not the presidents.
Lmao my b
Israel builds their own APCs and Tanks. They fly US airframe though. But, they also fly their own drones.
Well I guess we'd better just give them everything they want
Just to explain: Their demands are mainly loosening the blockade (which is a humanitarian crisis in its own right) and freeing hostages Palestinian detainees.
And killing every jew in the world..
They don't want to kill all Jews. They want the expulsion of all Jews from Israel/Palestine. At least according to their original manifesto, they've changed it to remove this part to be fair.
It can be argued that the Israeli government wants the same thing for the Palestinians.
“rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea”
.. “the Day of Judgment will not come about until Muslims fight Jews and kill them.”
Hamas’ 1988 charter
Thanks I was too lazy to find the exact citation.
Do you see the difference between what you said and their charter ? What Hamas wants is awful enough, no need to exaggerate.
OP is misleading. Hamas has a new 2017 charter, which has change a lot. As far as I can remember, they had alterd their demand/charter, where the main clause is to have the Israel/Palestine border to be as of 1967.
When they say kill jews they mean all, everywhere. They've even stated this to the press.
Some members have stated as such but have been corrected by the leadership. Hamas, at least publicly, only said that they wanted to forcefully displace the Jews and that they would not hesitate to kill civilians to attain that objective.
Oh that's all? Thank goodness forcible displacement using coercive threats on a civilian population isnt a war crime. I don't understand why you are splitting hairs on the goals of this openly genocidal group. Supporting Palestinians doesn't mean you have to go to bat for Hamas.
Where do you see that I'm supporting them? I literally reiterated in many comments that what they want is a war crime. No need to invent some other objectives they are plenty awful enough.
Truth matters, especially in conflicts like this.
Actually resisting oppression and removing the oppressors from your land is indeed not a war crime.
Just like how the Ukrainians have the right to expell the Russians colonizing Crimea.
It really didn't take much to get you in the mood to justify a targeted attack on civilians did it. I'm consistent in my view that it's wrong to murder civilians, but it doesn't seem like you are.
Yeah just 75 years of brutal oppression and all forms of peaceful protests being massacred like the March to Return in 2018.
Was Ukraine targeting civilians when they invaded Crimea too? Some Russian civilians sure died from it.
Just forget all the propaganda you've been reading and look at the sheer numbers of miliary Vs civilian deaths.
You're really far gone down the IDF propaganda drain if you still believe Oct7 was just an attack on civilians.
It was a targeted attack on IDF military bases and also hostage takings on the Kibbutzes nearby. Yes "civilians" were killed but the amount is low compared to the amount of soldiers. Furthermore the israeli "civilians" were extremely heavily armed.
Those videos of Hamas throwing grenades inside shelters? IDF Soldiers were inside.
If Hamas was going for civilian casualties they would have planned pushing in further and would have likely been able to kill at least 10k
Yikes, so much misinformation, lies, and straight up fantasies in this single post.
You really want me to give you recent quotes from their leaders? You want to look that stupid?
Well yes ? How else would you want to do this. I just gave you an example of a senior Hamas officer saying kill all Jews and Hamas saying they do not agree.
I have no doubt Hamas leadership is a bunch of genocidal maniacs but their official stance has been in the past the forceful displacement and nowadays it's the return to pre 1967 borders. They are ready to admit to the existence of Israel, not by pleasure mind you, but their official stance nowadays is that they are partially open to a two state solution if the right to return is put in place.
This might be a bunch of lies, but it is their official position.
Given that Jews are not likely to voluntarily leave Israel, this is de facto a call to violently expel or kill all Jews in the area, which is nearly half of the world's Jews.
While yes, going from "Kill all Jews" to just "Kill half of all Jews" is an improvement, it's still not "let's all hold hands and find a way to get along!". This isn't to say that the Israeli far right is all that much better really, though they're better at knowing what parts to say out loud.
Yes it is a clear war crime don't get me wrong. But exaggeration has no use when reality is awful enough.
Hamas is a terrorist organisation that will not hesitate to kill civilians to achieve their ideals. They do not publicly at least want to kill all Jews.
TBF, so is the IDF. They have killed, what, nearly 20,000 Palestinians, mostly women and children non-combatants, since they declared war on Gaza? They claim to care about not killing civilians, but they sure aren't putting a lot of effort into not killing them.
What's a reasonable ratio of combatants to non-combatants killed? 1:1? 1:10? If Israel has to kill one hundred civilians in order to kill a single Hamas militant, is that acceptable?
Hamas civilian casualty rate on Oct7 was around 3/4 civilians to IDF, with 29/1200 children deaths.
This is better than the US avarage of 9/10. Israel is guessed to be around 99/100 and 6000/18000 children deaths.
This is plain wrong and disinformation. Israel has killed way more civilians than is usual or acceptable in a war but nowhere near the numbers you cited.
What? Your link cites 18k and There's still 5k bodies missing in Palestine. The real death count is likely above 20k already.
Yes ? Do you really think only 200 Hamas militants were killed ? Because that's what your ratio would suggest.
Israel is unnecessarily killing and starving civilians, but once again gross misinformation serves nobody and only justifies more horrors.
Seeing as 1/3 of the deaths are children and the other 1/3 women it's pretty easy to confirm that there is no targeting involved. It's just genocide.
Israel was already unecessarily killing and starving civilians before Oct 7. And there's literally no reason they need to starve anyone right now aside israel comitting genocide.
You seem to have a weird impression of them. Genociding all Palestinians is israels goal, it's not a "byproduct" of the war. Netanyahu has publicly stated this.
But you're right since they dared to enter Gaza and fight instead of just bombing civilians while Hamas was in the tunnels underground, their civilian casualty rate has probably decreased. Maybe they got 500 now?
Where did I say that one side didn't want to genocide the other ? Hamas is more public about it and won't even try to justify their civilian killings, but Netanhyu government has made it clear again and again that they are willing to do collective punishment. The high civilian death rate is of course intentional.
Hamas has also killed plenty of civilians, and they don't even try to pretend that it was accidental. That said you are close to their ratio which is three civilians for every military death.
Israel's civilian deaths to militant deaths is probably higher due to the usage of bombs (10 civilian deaths per explosion) and intentional starvation but it isn't 100:1.
Hamas' strategy of hiding behind civilians is also a war
crime since it obviously increases the number of civilians killed.
If you believe Israeli propaganda, they have killed 5000 Hamas militants. Reality is probably smaller than that, but since Hamas intentionally doesn't publish their militant casualties we won't have a good estimation. That said 500 Israeli soldiers have died and seeing the asymmetry in warfare, you can expect much more Hamas militants to have died. I have not been able to find an estimate from an independent source.
They've never said that. Why are you making up shit?
Of course they did
< citation needed >
“rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea”
.. “the Day of Judgment will not come about until Muslims fight Jews and kill them.”
Hamas’ 1988 charter
This is hilarious.
Hamas ball fondler: Hamas doesn't want to kill all Jews
Someone: Here's the Hamas charter where they literally say the want to kill the Jews.
Hamas ball fondler: Well that is devastating to my argument so I'm choosing to ignore it
😂
Y'all are conveniently ignoring the fact that this an outdated charter and can't find such language in the new one. Just another day clocking in to the genocide defence factory, don't forget the emojis.
But but but we changed the charter. It's probably your best joke.
This one's for you Hamas ball fondler:
Reporter: So you removed 'kill the Jews' from your charter.
Hamas: Yes Dave from accounting slipped that in there.
Reporter: So you don't want to kill all the Jews now?
Hamas: That's right 😉.
Reporter: Did you wink at me?
Hamas: Of course I didn't! 😉
Reporter: There you did it again!
Hamas: Look now we definitely don't want to kill Jews 😉
Reporter: I'm beginning to think you want to attack the Jews! Did Dave get punished at least?
Hamas: Promoted actually.
Reporter: Why did you even bother changing your charter then?
Hamas: It made it easier to get rubes cough ball fondlers cough...I mean supporters.
😂
It's also interesting that Hamas literally calls for genocide or in their more "PR friendly" new draft only ethnic cleansing, and then Hamas ball garglers claim Israel is commiting genocide.
Don't get me wrong, there have been war crimes, collective punishment is a war crime. But it's not genocide.
How many hostages has the IDF retrieved so far with their genocide, 1? Sasuga IDF intelligence. Truly "the best out there".
There seems to be no reason for Hamas to negotiate since they're completely in control.
All israel has done so far is kill innocent civilians.
1 out of 200? So you're saying they need to genocide 200 times more to get the rest back? I'm sure they'd say challenge accepted.
Hamas has probably already killed them all, while you carry their water
Hey, there's also the chance idf has accidentally hit them
The IDF is known for killing and abusing their hostages without reason. Hamas isn't. They only execute hostages when the IDF tries to barge in.
Which is why the IDF already lost this on Oct7 and should agree to the hostage swap.
lucky all those people they brutally killed in the first day of the war werent hostages then, or they might make your rosy image of hamas look a bit unbelievable
Violent resistance isn't gonna be rosy pal. The Nazi's didn't go away by asking nicely either. Hamas did pretty neatly with the limited means they had.
The fact that Hamas didn't intentionally kill any children already puts them on a far higher moral ground than israel.
See not that difficult! Now find me the Hamas one you claim exists. I'll wait
Terrorist bullshit. Now you are boot licking. Soon you'll be licking their balls.
Maybe you can teach me some of your techniques for when that time comes. You seem to posess expertise in the ways of deepthroating.
So now you accuse me of doing the same thing you're doing. Is that the best you can come up with?
Tell that to all the antisemitic people here with brain rot.
Duh? That's literally what the hostages were for lol
Are the demands:
Stop kidnapping our civilians.
Stop relentlessly shelling us (specifically when we are in supposed relative peacetimes).
Again, Stop kidnapping our civilians, stripping them down, and calling them fighters.
Stop forcing our women and children to "evacuate to a safe space", then mercilessly shelling that place.
Stop destroying our schools and hospitals, murdering everyone there, then calling it a "Hamas center of operations" because armed men were there trying to protect the inhabitants.
?
You forgot "stop preventing us from getting essential goods for our perpetually sick, starving population", but yeah that's about right.
Actually that's not a Hamas demand. They steal those goods from their population and use it themselves.
One of the demands is to kill every jew in the world. It's in their charter
The charter they changed in 2017? Anyway even if that was true, we're talking about the demands for the release of hostages here.
Not 2017.
Their charter was updated in 2017.
Bwhahahaha
Nooo you can't resist against Nazi's that's terrorism!!!!!
Didn't everyone hear?
Jews were genocided by Nazis, so Jews get a genocide free pass they have decided to use on Palestine!!!
Fuck Hamas
And also fuck Netanyahu
Now this is the kind of critical thinking I strive for. Fuck both of them
Most sane discourse I've seen on the Internet so far.
Both sides of this conflict suck ass. What an absolute shit show. I feel for all the innocents affected.
Yes. Both off them.
Is there a list of Hamas' demands published somewhere? Cause I don't see it in the article...
I'm genuinely curious as to whether it's an achievable list of demands vs ludicrous posturing that has no chance of ever being met.
I'm pretty sure the raison d'etre of Hamas is just "death to Israel"
Yes the abolishment of the oppressive genocidal ethno state of israel is indeed their goal.
I'm pretty sure the raison d'être of Nelson Mandela and the ANC was to end the Apartheid in South Africa as well.
Violent resistance groups don't just magically spawn out of thin air.
They’re a terrorist organisation and use terrorist methods. They don’t even care if Palestinians get killed. Can’t believe you’re equating them with Nelson Mandela 😂
The Apartheid in South Africa didn't end with Mandela going on a hunger strike my friend. That's the funny story the US tells you afterwards
They regained their rights using the same methods that were used to take their rights away.
Violence.
Mandela was on the American "terror" watch list until 2008
Yep. Him and Winnie were infamous for putting tyres around the necks of their victims, filling the tyres with petrol, then lighting em up. Amnesty international wouldn't go near him for a very long time. This came up in my Facebook memories a couple of days ago, the dude was a monster. Personally, I don't think the ends justified the means, but I know they did for many, and I know for even more they don't know the whole story...
It seems his wife Winnie was openly advocating for it while Mandela was in prison but I can't find him associating with it.
Source.
Palestine is more of an ethnostate than israel lol.
Number one is the complete removal of Israel always. So highly doubtful.
Do you have the actual list that shows this is part of their current "list of demands"?
I realize that was part of the Hamas charter, but that's a different beast than what sounds like their current list of demands. This would be an example of a ludicrous demand that is just for show rather than a serious negotiation.
They want a ceasefire, the blockade to be loosened and the release of all Palestinian prisoners in Israel. All things that shouldn't need even need negotiation to happen in a non-Apartheid state.
Is there an actual published list of demands somewhere that is cite-able?
So it doesn't say much but I found this,
https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2023/10/11/analysis-why-did-hamas-attack-now-and-what-is-next
Israeli violations can be understood to main airstrikes and other military action against Gaza, though it's unclear if it includes the blockade.
Unfortunately you're right, it doesn't say a whole lot.
and later
Which contradicts the idea in the OP article stating about Hamas' "demands."
The closet thing I could find was this:
Which are certainly objectives, but not specific enough to be demands.
Searching for "hamas' list of demands" online, there are several articles similar to the one above that reference it, but no list of demands that I can see. The closest things I can find are the 1988 and 2017 Hamas charters, which aren't particularly specific other than the original one calls for the eradication of Israel and the Jews, and the revised one just calls for the eradication of Israel... which isn't exactly a demand as much as an aspiration, and is kind of a moot point because it doesn't seem like something that would be accepted by Israel.
So I'm still looking for an actual list of demands...
Thank you for properly seeking sources for information instead of just blindly believing what someone on a forum tells you.
Ironically I'm still getting shit upon by one or two freakish trolls for simply asking questions and engaging in dialog.
It's kind of annoying that the block feature doesn't work right, since I still get notifications whenever people I've blocked comment.
Not really? "Release Palestinian prisoners" and "stop Israeli violations" at least are definitely demands, and from what I found they also want Israel to stop flying drones over Gaza. That said, yeah, I guess not much has been made public.
Well for an actual "list of demands" I would expect things like "release these people:" followed by a list of names, and "stop doing these violations:" followed by a list of the violations they are accusing Israel of. "Release everybody" and "stop doing bad things" are technically demands, but they're not the kind of things you'd expect in an actual list of specific demands. Those certainly work as summaries of the demands, but I was hoping that some news agency would have an actual list of the specific things Hamas is demanding in order to release the hostages rather than just "do everything we want." I've seen them mention the drones in another article, which I suspect must be one of the things on the actual list.
"Release everyone" is one of their actual demands. Usually Hamas milks hostages for as many Palestinian prisoners as they're worth, and this time they have a lot of hostages so it should be in line with historical "exchange rates", so to speak, given that many of the hostages are soldiers, which have more value as hostages. Good point on the violations thing, though, it's frankly perplexing that they nobody is publishing an actual list.
If something as vague as "release everyone" or "release all Palestinians in Israeli jails" or whatever is one of their actual demands, it's unfortunate, because it makes it sound more like they're not serious and are just making impossible demands that they know will not/can not be met as an excuse to continue fighting but to give off the appearance of working for peace. Just as if "the eradication of the Israeli state" were one of their demands. But I can't really accuse them of that yet since I haven't seen an actual list of demands and we're both just speculating at this stage.
Why not? I think they got Israel to release 1200 Palestinian prisoners for one soldier before. That's why I said there's historical precedent. Releasing all Palestinian prisoners is far from an impossible demand.
It's the vagueness that's the problem. Without lists of who is to be released, it just becomes Israel's word of who is there or not. It could be 100 people or 10,000 people. I suspect Hamas is far more aware of who is imprisoned and how much they are worth. Like, is Hamas demanding the release of random violent criminals, rapists, car thieves, etc. solely because of their ethnicity? I doubt it. But they'll want their fighters back, and any political prisoners, stuff like that.
Yeah makes sense.
And one of those released went on to mastermind the Oct 7 atrocities.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/who-is-hamas-leader-yehiya-sinwar-from-enforcer-to-oct-7-mastermind/ar-AA1lkHOa
Which Hamas broke on Oct 7, despite loosening restrictions on Gaza, then again on Nov 30.
Which Egypt and Israel instated with international support because Hamas even turns humanitarian aid into weapons.
Palestinian Israelis serve in every level of government and civic life.
There are 2M Palestinians living within the borders that Israel claims as it's own. There are 8M Israelis (that figure includes Palestinian Israelis). Palestinians would need to hold roughly 1/5 of all gov't positions in order for them to be anything other than a token minority. But they don't. In fact, it's not even close. The US, despite it's 200+ year racist and patriarchal history, has better representation of non-white and non-male people in Congress--as a proportion of the population--than Israel does.
What territories are you describing when you say "within the borders that Israel claims as it's own."
The West Bank, which is occupied territory. E.g., it's not part of Israel under international law, but Israel claims it as its own.
Ty for clarifying, West Bank settlements are absolutely abhorrent, but I've seen too many people use the phrase claimed territory to refer to all of Israel. I appreciate the response and clarification
IMO, the 1947 UN borders are fairly reasonable, and Jerusalem should probably be administered by rotating 3rd parties (since there's no way that Israel and Palestine can realistically jointly govern Jerusalem due to how religiously charged it is).
In the USA, there are 3 African-American senators out of 100. There have been only 3 African American governors in history.
There are 9 ethnic minority members of French parliament out of 577, despite making up about 15% of the population.
Ethnic minorities represent 10% of the UK Parliament, despite being 16% of the population.
In Israel, there are 10 seats in the Knesset representing Arab/Palestinian parties out of 120.
Underrepresentation of minorities is a widespread global problem that is not limited to Israel. Pretending that the the rest of the world is some kind of post-racial utopia, while only Israel experiences racial inequality is cynical at best.
Look at state legislators, mayors, etc. Yeah, the US is gerrymandered to shit, and SCOTUS is gutting the civil rights and voting rights acts. But at least at a state level, non-white people have better representation. In my state, Republicans are currently fighting a federal court order to redraw voting districts because they under-represented black populations, but that city has a black mayor, and a majority black city council. Yeah, the US has a problem with racism. But the US doesn't send in the military to run Atlanta because they don't want black and Latino people to have a say in the government.
Israel broke the ceasefire by invading Al Aqsa before Oct 7 it was the direct reason for the attack.
Also israel refused to extend the ceasefire agreement and were probably the first party that threw bombs on 30 nov.
Lay off the IDF propaganda for a bit.
So, a third ceasefire now, with them starting new attacks within 30 minutes or less? Or are we past third yet?
It's like the 17th ceasefire with Hamas. They just use them to rebuild their rocket supplies, then break them when they're ready.
I mean Israel doesn't follow its ceasefires. What do they expect will happen? Despite two agreements stipulating that the blockade would be lifted and air strikes would stop neither happened.
Internet libs love to tell people how they should fight for their rights. I wonder if anyone has considered holding a bake sale in Gaza? Maybe then both sides can sit down and talk? Maybe Israel just doesn't know committing genocide is bad? Does Hamas know Israel wants to commit genocide? Does Israel know Palestinians feel pain and suffering?
It's impossible to know without DiALoGuE.
Jubilee did a Middle Ground on Israel/Palestine. It went how you’d expect.
I think you're confusing Hamas firing rockets for Israeli ones. Or maybe you're intentionally miss stating those.
Many of those prisoners are there after participating in terrorist activities, many of them murdering lots of innocent civilians. The only reason they're still there is because Israel does not have the death penalty.
And about 1100 are there without charge.
They need to release hostages for a ceasefire. You know, those they just said they will kill. Try to keep up.
Release the hostages and then what? Lose all their leverage? I can bet you right now if they release the hostages outside of an actual ceasefire agreements none of their demands will be met.
No keep raping and drugging them. That will get them closer to the goal.
That's... Not happening to my knowledge. Where did you get that from?
Are you serious? After so many news talking about drugged up kids which were released in hostage exchange and naked woman being dragged through the city and spat on you actually question whether hostages are abused?
Oh in that case we're talking about different things. There are hostages who were abused the moment they were taken. The people who abused those need to be punished, no questions asked. There are then hostages that weren't. Those weren't abused after being taken into the tunnels, or at least weren't sexually assaulted. The former is a fact, the latter is a claim even the IDF walked back on.
After they release all the hostages they're going to nurder? You mean what happens then? IDK, what do you thibk?
I think Israel will take over Gaza like it used to before 2005 (they've actually stated this), and Palestinians prisoners will continue rotting in the Israeli military prison system. I also think Palestinian resistance will be mercilessly crushed. Why do you ask?
Check out the geopolitical whiz kid!
They're doing far better than you are.
Hamas? They are getting their ass ki kicked.
Well, in your boot licking eyes, it can only be the latter even if the only demand is "Everyone stops killing people."
Lol what the fuck is your problem?
I ask a question, making me a boot licker. So I guess people who never ask questions, like you, are what... ?
Fucking trolls is what.
You and the boot licking pro genocide bile you constantly spew.
Yes, but Hamas did start the war so it’s not that simple
Even if you ignore the Nakba, the war started in 1967 with the Israeli occupation of territory now claimed by the State of Palestine.
No. It started earlier. Like 5000BC
Original sin argument. Bold.
Its all the same with minor deviations.
No...
No they didn't.
They tried to go for a rebel strike that might make Israel pause and think about their constant ongoing oppression and slaughter, but Papa Biden was there to make sure that didn't work.
It wasn't bad enough that white nation's went in, stole their land, and displaced them.
America had been depending on Israel to buy and use their guns and ammunition the whole time through to prop up the military industrial complex and give America a toe-hold across the Pacific.
Plenty of bootlicking Americans around to deny that long and horrific history though.
Just for anyone who might happen to care about facts, Israel is not a "white nation", and most of its citizens actually originate from the Middle East from Jewish communities in Arab countries that were expelled in the 50s and 60s. Ashkenazi Jews from Europe are a significant group, but they're not a majority. Most Arab countries had Jewish communities for well over 2000 years before being forcibly expelled due to Arab anger after the formation of Israel.
The synagogue of Baghdad, for instance, was built 2500 years ago. A synagogue on the outskirts of Damascus was build 2700 years ago. The synagogue of Aleppo dates nearly 3000 years ago, where it housed a set of Hebrew Bible scrolls from around the year 1000 until they were removed following anti-Jewish riots in 1947. Libya has a synagogue from c. 1060. Cairo has 12 synagogues, but less than 10 Egyptian Jews. In Yemen, evidence of Jewish community dates back 2500 years. In 1949 and 1950, 50,000 Yemeni Jews were evacuated to Israel in the face of growing persecution and backlash to the creation of Israel. By 2009, there were about 350 Jews left in Yemen, and following the Civil War in Yemen and strong persecution from the Houthis, there are less than 10 Jews remaining in Yemen, essentially ending over 2500 years of Jewish history in Yemen.
To describe Israel as nothing but a bunch of white Europeans is simply inaccurate and erases the millennia-long history of Jewish communities throughout the entire Middle East.
Sir, no one told me being humane would require reading. I’d like to speak to the manager. /s
This is the reason you give for murder and rape of innocent people? This is your justification? You are morally repugnant
As is the IDF and Netanyahu for continuing to murder Palestinians, journalists and innocent children by the thousands.
And kettling Palestinians in southern Gaza so it's easier to bomb/kill them.
There is no justification for the atrocities committed on Oct 7th. The more I read your tripe the sicker I feel for mankind.
I CAN NOT wait for you to give the justification for what Israel has done to Palestine every day for over 50 years.
Hint: Its murder and rape.
Show me where Isreal killed women as they raped them then mutilated their bodies you sick SOB.
Unverified fear-bait.
There's no shortage on stories of cases where Israeli soldiers rape Palestinians --of any gender. In terms of murder, we know which side has the higher body count, so let's not pretend we don't.
I wouldn't recommend citing an Iranian Revolutionary Guard operated propaganda website as a credible source. Perhaps you should examine more critically where you are getting your news from.
Amnesty International.
And make sure it's Fox, right?
Denial is powerful.
Then stop reading. That should help your sickness.
Knowing there are people like you in the world just sickens me more.
Eat some crackers then.
https://twitter.com/HeidiBachram/status/1730732283823354197?t=eJnQza5K-V3A_ns2Yyo2Kg&s=19
Israel does that too!
Has done it consistently for 50 years?
Do I endorse Hamas fighting fire with fire? No.
Can I blame Hamas for fighting fire with fire? No.
Jesus I hate you fucking fruit fly memoried bandwagoning genocidal bastards.
Sure chief. Show me where Israelis behead people. Show me where they burn them alive. Get out of here with that false equivalency
Just say it. Just call them savages you want exterminated.
You don't care about death or suffering, you care about how "impure and backwards they are". To be cleaned for "progress"
You're building up to it, just speak plainly. You want to improve the land of Palestine by clearing out the savages. It's the genocidal colonial logic you subscribe to. Let people know who you are.
First you say what you really feel. The Jews deserved it, right? It's on the tip of your tongue
No.
The Israelis deserved it.
Separate Jew and Israeli in your mind.
Israel isn't Jewish. It was taken from Palestine to be given to the Jews as reparation for the Nazi genocide, but that was a long ass time ago, Israel is not entirely Jewish anymore, and now Israel is the country doing a genocide.
Thank you for making it so easy to block you.
I'm sure bin Laden said the same deluded BS.
That's kind of implied in the concept of hostages, yes.
It's only going to get worse.
In a few years you'll have an entire generation of adult Palestinians that have lived under blockade in an open-air Gaza prison. It's an apartheid and Israel is an apartheid state.
Treating people with that kind of barbarism creates a lot of anger and a lot of people are going to think they don't have anything to lose by fighting back.
Haven't they been living in an open air prison since about 1948? I'm pretty sure they're working on the 4th generation to grow up in those conditions.
Yes, but it's grown progressively much worse, particularly since they were blockaded 16 years ago.
I think the next Osama Bin Laden is currently hanging out somewhere in Palestine, and when they surface in the next decade or two, their manifesto will sound eerily similar to the one OBL wrote about the embargo the US placed on Iraq, which starved millions of people and led to the rise of Al Qaeda.
I think Egypt and Israel blockaded the Gaza strip after Hamas won the election ~2006. I think the WB is not blockaded since they have the PA though.
You're slightly off. The blockade started 3 months before Hamas won the elections.
Bin Laden was actually a rich Saudi guy that gave up his life of riches to help fight the Afghan Muslims against the Russians who wanted to colonize Afghanistan.
Then when they defeated the Russians he turned against America because they were colonizing Palestine
Tbh I doubt at this point we will have a next generation of gazans
A lot of people thought the same thing about the Vietnamese. It's a lot harder these days to wipe out an entire population than it was in the 1800's, though not for lack of trying.
Historically nations that have wholly wiped out other nations of people have needed a pandemic that they're immune to in order to accomplish it.
Hold on to your butts.
What good will that do ;)
Ah ah ah. You didn't say the magic word.
Ah ah ah, the Bible's pretty clear about that
Hamas is getting their ass kicked.
The outcome was known before the attack took place.
Perhaps, but what this tells you is that the IDF are close to the leaders.
The leaders are chilling in Qatar.
Does Bibi have an understanding with the Quartards financing all this nonsense?
Netanyahu himself has allowed money to go to Hamas because he doesn't want the more moderate Palestinian Authority to unify the Palestinians.
https://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Netanyahu-Money-to-Hamas-part-of-strategy-to-keep-Palestinians-divided-583082
Yeah, the Israeli citizenship fucking hates the guy. His admin also pulled IDF troops away from the Gazan border prior to the attack even though some of the IDF officers warned of an impending attack.
Fuck that guy and his insane administration.
The US certainly does.
With Bibi or the Quartards? You can't not elaborate on that bit of juicy steak
Yes.
Bro...no more treats until you serve the main course
Both Qatar and Israel are major US strategic military allies.
Is the US complicit in Hamas' operations/survival?
As the US has been beside Israel from day 1, and Israel helped form Hamas, at the very least the US is indirectly complicit.
Yahya Sinwar is calling the shots from a tunnel in Gaza according to what I read,but it could be wrong. The IDF has been getting intel from captured Hamas.
Yeah by martyring them. Shortsighted policy.
It's the best thing to do with them.
It's almost like a well armed modern military are fighting an insurgency.
its not an insurgency. it's a bunch of untrained losers who's only "success" comes from killing civilians in cold blood.
there won't be any of hamas left in a few months and that's a good thing for everyone in the region
Except Palestinians, I guess.
absolutely delusional. amazing how easy it is to trick people into being bootlickers
Like how OP is trying to hype up IDF as if they didn't lose a slew of tanks to some Hamas fighters literally walking in with RPGs and probably being as old and as competently trained as high-schoolers.
Eisenhower and Ford are watching in embarrassment as they use a metric ton of the latest in advanced guided weaponry to deal with an insurgency that only has hostages because Mossad was sitting on its ass for a whole year.
Hamas will get crushed eventually, but I'm surprised they kept up this game for so long with only like 200 hostages. Lockheed's CEO would probably shake hands with their leader if he could for generating such a huge amount of arms sales.
Eisenhower and ford? Do you know the history of the korean and vietnam wars? Lol
The only reason hamas isnt ass blasted right now is because they hide among civilians.
The carriers, not the presidents.
Lmao my b
Israel builds their own APCs and Tanks. They fly US airframe though. But, they also fly their own drones.
Well I guess we'd better just give them everything they want
Just to explain: Their demands are mainly loosening the blockade (which is a humanitarian crisis in its own right) and freeing
hostagesPalestinian detainees.And killing every jew in the world..
They don't want to kill all Jews. They want the expulsion of all Jews from Israel/Palestine. At least according to their original manifesto, they've changed it to remove this part to be fair.
It can be argued that the Israeli government wants the same thing for the Palestinians.
“rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea” .. “the Day of Judgment will not come about until Muslims fight Jews and kill them.”
Hamas’ 1988 charter
Thanks I was too lazy to find the exact citation.
Do you see the difference between what you said and their charter ? What Hamas wants is awful enough, no need to exaggerate.
OP is misleading. Hamas has a new 2017 charter, which has change a lot. As far as I can remember, they had alterd their demand/charter, where the main clause is to have the Israel/Palestine border to be as of 1967.
When they say kill jews they mean all, everywhere. They've even stated this to the press.
Some members have stated as such but have been corrected by the leadership. Hamas, at least publicly, only said that they wanted to forcefully displace the Jews and that they would not hesitate to kill civilians to attain that objective.
Example: https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/senior-hamas-official-urges-palestinians-worldwide-to-kill-every-jew-on-the-globe
Oh that's all? Thank goodness forcible displacement using coercive threats on a civilian population isnt a war crime. I don't understand why you are splitting hairs on the goals of this openly genocidal group. Supporting Palestinians doesn't mean you have to go to bat for Hamas.
Where do you see that I'm supporting them? I literally reiterated in many comments that what they want is a war crime. No need to invent some other objectives they are plenty awful enough.
Truth matters, especially in conflicts like this.
Actually resisting oppression and removing the oppressors from your land is indeed not a war crime.
Just like how the Ukrainians have the right to expell the Russians colonizing Crimea.
It really didn't take much to get you in the mood to justify a targeted attack on civilians did it. I'm consistent in my view that it's wrong to murder civilians, but it doesn't seem like you are.
Yeah just 75 years of brutal oppression and all forms of peaceful protests being massacred like the March to Return in 2018.
Was Ukraine targeting civilians when they invaded Crimea too? Some Russian civilians sure died from it.
Just forget all the propaganda you've been reading and look at the sheer numbers of miliary Vs civilian deaths.
You're really far gone down the IDF propaganda drain if you still believe Oct7 was just an attack on civilians.
It was a targeted attack on IDF military bases and also hostage takings on the Kibbutzes nearby. Yes "civilians" were killed but the amount is low compared to the amount of soldiers. Furthermore the israeli "civilians" were extremely heavily armed.
Those videos of Hamas throwing grenades inside shelters? IDF Soldiers were inside.
If Hamas was going for civilian casualties they would have planned pushing in further and would have likely been able to kill at least 10k
Yikes, so much misinformation, lies, and straight up fantasies in this single post.
You really want me to give you recent quotes from their leaders? You want to look that stupid?
Well yes ? How else would you want to do this. I just gave you an example of a senior Hamas officer saying kill all Jews and Hamas saying they do not agree.
I have no doubt Hamas leadership is a bunch of genocidal maniacs but their official stance has been in the past the forceful displacement and nowadays it's the return to pre 1967 borders. They are ready to admit to the existence of Israel, not by pleasure mind you, but their official stance nowadays is that they are partially open to a two state solution if the right to return is put in place.
This might be a bunch of lies, but it is their official position.
Exactly
Given that Jews are not likely to voluntarily leave Israel, this is de facto a call to violently expel or kill all Jews in the area, which is nearly half of the world's Jews.
While yes, going from "Kill all Jews" to just "Kill half of all Jews" is an improvement, it's still not "let's all hold hands and find a way to get along!". This isn't to say that the Israeli far right is all that much better really, though they're better at knowing what parts to say out loud.
Yes it is a clear war crime don't get me wrong. But exaggeration has no use when reality is awful enough.
Hamas is a terrorist organisation that will not hesitate to kill civilians to achieve their ideals. They do not publicly at least want to kill all Jews.
TBF, so is the IDF. They have killed, what, nearly 20,000 Palestinians, mostly women and children non-combatants, since they declared war on Gaza? They claim to care about not killing civilians, but they sure aren't putting a lot of effort into not killing them.
What's a reasonable ratio of combatants to non-combatants killed? 1:1? 1:10? If Israel has to kill one hundred civilians in order to kill a single Hamas militant, is that acceptable?
Hamas civilian casualty rate on Oct7 was around 3/4 civilians to IDF, with 29/1200 children deaths.
This is better than the US avarage of 9/10. Israel is guessed to be around 99/100 and 6000/18000 children deaths.
This is plain wrong and disinformation. Israel has killed way more civilians than is usual or acceptable in a war but nowhere near the numbers you cited.
See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_2023_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war
What? Your link cites 18k and There's still 5k bodies missing in Palestine. The real death count is likely above 20k already.
Yes ? Do you really think only 200 Hamas militants were killed ? Because that's what your ratio would suggest.
Israel is unnecessarily killing and starving civilians, but once again gross misinformation serves nobody and only justifies more horrors.
Seeing as 1/3 of the deaths are children and the other 1/3 women it's pretty easy to confirm that there is no targeting involved. It's just genocide.
Israel was already unecessarily killing and starving civilians before Oct 7. And there's literally no reason they need to starve anyone right now aside israel comitting genocide.
You seem to have a weird impression of them. Genociding all Palestinians is israels goal, it's not a "byproduct" of the war. Netanyahu has publicly stated this.
But you're right since they dared to enter Gaza and fight instead of just bombing civilians while Hamas was in the tunnels underground, their civilian casualty rate has probably decreased. Maybe they got 500 now?
Where did I say that one side didn't want to genocide the other ? Hamas is more public about it and won't even try to justify their civilian killings, but Netanhyu government has made it clear again and again that they are willing to do collective punishment. The high civilian death rate is of course intentional.
Hamas has also killed plenty of civilians, and they don't even try to pretend that it was accidental. That said you are close to their ratio which is three civilians for every military death.
Israel's civilian deaths to militant deaths is probably higher due to the usage of bombs (10 civilian deaths per explosion) and intentional starvation but it isn't 100:1.
Hamas' strategy of hiding behind civilians is also a war crime since it obviously increases the number of civilians killed.
If you believe Israeli propaganda, they have killed 5000 Hamas militants. Reality is probably smaller than that, but since Hamas intentionally doesn't publish their militant casualties we won't have a good estimation. That said 500 Israeli soldiers have died and seeing the asymmetry in warfare, you can expect much more Hamas militants to have died. I have not been able to find an estimate from an independent source.
They've never said that. Why are you making up shit?
Of course they did
< citation needed >
“rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea” .. “the Day of Judgment will not come about until Muslims fight Jews and kill them.”
Hamas’ 1988 charter
This is hilarious.
Hamas ball fondler: Hamas doesn't want to kill all Jews
Someone: Here's the Hamas charter where they literally say the want to kill the Jews.
Hamas ball fondler: Well that is devastating to my argument so I'm choosing to ignore it
😂
Y'all are conveniently ignoring the fact that this an outdated charter and can't find such language in the new one. Just another day clocking in to the genocide defence factory, don't forget the emojis.
But but but we changed the charter. It's probably your best joke.
This one's for you Hamas ball fondler:
Reporter: So you removed 'kill the Jews' from your charter.
Hamas: Yes Dave from accounting slipped that in there.
Reporter: So you don't want to kill all the Jews now?
Hamas: That's right 😉.
Reporter: Did you wink at me?
Hamas: Of course I didn't! 😉
Reporter: There you did it again!
Hamas: Look now we definitely don't want to kill Jews 😉
Reporter: I'm beginning to think you want to attack the Jews! Did Dave get punished at least?
Hamas: Promoted actually.
Reporter: Why did you even bother changing your charter then?
Hamas: It made it easier to get rubes cough ball fondlers cough...I mean supporters.
😂
It's also interesting that Hamas literally calls for genocide or in their more "PR friendly" new draft only ethnic cleansing, and then Hamas ball garglers claim Israel is commiting genocide.
Don't get me wrong, there have been war crimes, collective punishment is a war crime. But it's not genocide.
How many hostages has the IDF retrieved so far with their genocide, 1? Sasuga IDF intelligence. Truly "the best out there".
There seems to be no reason for Hamas to negotiate since they're completely in control.
All israel has done so far is kill innocent civilians.
1 out of 200? So you're saying they need to genocide 200 times more to get the rest back? I'm sure they'd say challenge accepted.
Hamas has probably already killed them all, while you carry their water
Hey, there's also the chance idf has accidentally hit them
The IDF is known for killing and abusing their hostages without reason. Hamas isn't. They only execute hostages when the IDF tries to barge in.
Which is why the IDF already lost this on Oct7 and should agree to the hostage swap.
lucky all those people they brutally killed in the first day of the war werent hostages then, or they might make your rosy image of hamas look a bit unbelievable
Violent resistance isn't gonna be rosy pal. The Nazi's didn't go away by asking nicely either. Hamas did pretty neatly with the limited means they had.
The fact that Hamas didn't intentionally kill any children already puts them on a far higher moral ground than israel.
They did tho
29/1200 kids died on Oct 7 including israel bombing the Kibbutzes and killing many of those kids.
These are insanely low numbers.
There was not a single instance of a Hamas fighter shooting a child found on all the gopro footage israel has from the fighters.
Many instances of Hamas NOT shooting and sparing children (not their parents though) were observed.
We have literal witness accounts of Hamas raping the women, children, and elderly hostages, while beating the men.
Yeah and we have the president of the US saying that Hamas beheaded 40 babies when there were not even 40 children killed on Oct 7.
There is zero evidence only anonymous "witnesses". No video evidence. No rape kits. It didn't happen.
Okay, so where are all the videos of every single death reported in Gaza, or is that number made up as well?
You only need one to prove something.
There's plenty of videos of Palestinian kids being murdered by the IDF out there.
Here's a recent one from the west bank https://youtu.be/4hq39W3F5RI?si=NITQc0vyisML-PVa
See not that difficult! Now find me the Hamas one you claim exists. I'll wait
Terrorist bullshit. Now you are boot licking. Soon you'll be licking their balls.
Maybe you can teach me some of your techniques for when that time comes. You seem to posess expertise in the ways of deepthroating.
So now you accuse me of doing the same thing you're doing. Is that the best you can come up with?
Tell that to all the antisemitic people here with brain rot.
Duh? That's literally what the hostages were for lol
Are the demands:
?
You forgot "stop preventing us from getting essential goods for our perpetually sick, starving population", but yeah that's about right.
Actually that's not a Hamas demand. They steal those goods from their population and use it themselves.
One of the demands is to kill every jew in the world. It's in their charter
The charter they changed in 2017? Anyway even if that was true, we're talking about the demands for the release of hostages here.
Their charter was updated in 2017.
Bwhahahaha
Nooo you can't resist against Nazi's that's terrorism!!!!!
Didn't everyone hear?
Jews were genocided by Nazis, so Jews get a genocide free pass they have decided to use on Palestine!!!