This is entirely a USA problem. No one in Europe uses iMessage as their primary messaging app.
What do they use? Whatsapp? Wechat? Signal?
Whatsapp
Interesting ty!
So before you can message anyone you have to download whatsapp? iMessage is preinstalled and is also e2e encrypted. Idk if I'd rather Facebook or Apple (who can access iCloud backups of normally otherwise encrypted data, etc.) in charge of my messaging infrastructure, honestly.
Americans with Android are left to use literal SMS which is atrocious, or a different messaging solution, probably whatsapp I guess
edit: I don't like iMessage or the current state of messaging in the US. I feel like all the default messaging apps should be able to communicate e2e encrypted via some shared standard or something-- it's weird to have to go third party
Americans with Android are stuck using SMS half the time because Americans with iPhones are literally holding us back. If it wasn't for iMessage, we would have ditched SMS years ago, but when you suggest to an iPhone user that they use something other than iMessage their head explodes, apparently.
when you suggest to an iPhone user that they use something other than iMessage their head explodes, apparently.
Android users aren't in such a tiny minority over there. Even by pure chance, there should be a decent number of Android users initiating events but since even they are so obsessed with iMessage, they don't even try to use something else.
Android users aren't in such a tiny minority over there.
Yep, Android makes up around 40-45% of the mobile OS in America, depending on what site and when you look.
So before you can message anyone you have to download whatsapp?
Yes and almost everyone around the world outside China and the USA does that. WhatsApp has 2 billion users.
Yes, most people in western Europe use Whatsapp. Yes, they have to download it before they can use it. Maybe some phones have it preinstalled, but most smartphone users do know how to download apps. More tech-savvy and privacy-conscious people often have Signal as well.
iMessage is preinstalled
The whole point is: it isn't more often than not. And unlike Whatsapp, you can't even install it.
Every iPhone has iMessage preinstalled...
Every iPhone has iMessage preinstalled…
But since the context here is Europe: Android is used by the majority.
Even if it wasn't, technological illiteracy cannot justify imposing a vendor lock-in upon the others. Installing an independent messenger like Signal is not rocket science.
Not every phone is an iPhone though.
Most phones aren't iPhones actually.
Did we just go full circle and start bitching about apps not being preinstalled?
Encrypted during transfer, yes, but still decrypted in the apps
In the congress hearing zucky boy did, he was asked whether Facebook could read Messenger and WhatsApp messages
his response was to more or less trip over himself avowing that Facebook couldn't read WhatsApp messages—even when a follow up question specifically asked him about Messenger, he chose to ignore it and reaffirm that WhatsApp messages were private
i don't really see why he would've done that unless WhatsApp actually was encrypted, given that if he were lying about one it would be a lot easier to just lie about both
his response was to more or less trip over himself avowing that Facebook couldn’t read WhatsApp messages—even when a follow up question specifically asked him about Messenger, he chose to ignore it and reaffirm that WhatsApp messages were private
It was optional for ages and recently read about it becoming the default.
i did say it was "also" e2e encrypted
Android users get to use the default messages app, with the whole e2e encryption, reactions, full sized photos etc... SMS is used for advertisements, and sending messages to iphone users... SMS is only used by old people for 2fa as 2fa apps usualy have superior security and are now systematically prefered by companies.
Both iphone users and android users need to download an extra app if they want E2E, full graphic images and videos, reactions etc...
Just as people aren't content with iWork and usually download Office because it works the same and can be read with the same formatting everywhere.
So before you can message anyone you have to download whatsapp?
I love how this seems like a near insurmountable hurdle. Install an app?? On a phone?!
I have a relative who is ~85 years old; he uses WhatsApp. It's really not that hard.
It was just a question - I'm not remotely saying what you are
WhatsApp became the dominant messaging platform in Europe before Facebook bought them. Most people are locked in to it because change is hard and they don't care that much about privacy.
Most people are locked in to it because change is hard and they don’t care that much about privacy.
The privacy concerns are not that Meta will read your messages (because they can't, as you mention), but the metadata they can read such as your details and who you contact.
“So, Facebook can track who sends WhatsApp messages, when, to whom, from which location (if a user allows), etc - but not the content itself,” Rykov says “This creates a privacy concern for people who want full anonymity. These people should consider using more privacy-enhancing apps like Signal, Threema, Wire instead.”
the metadata they can read such as your details and who you contact.
Every provider of communication services can. Singling out WhatsApp in that regard makes no sense. Apple happily hands over metadata and iCloud backups to the FBI.
the metadata they can read such as your details and who you contact...Every provider of communication services can.
So Signal's corporate customers (like Meta with WhatsApp) do the same then?
Ultimately I just don’t trust meta at all. I trust Apple slightly more. Which still isn’t much, but it’s more.
It must be so difficult to spend 2 whole seconds downloading an app to use for messaging. and yes it's end to end encrypted too.
There’s no need to be a jerk. For some of us it is just unexpected to hear that folks have phones where they download their primary messaging app. It would be like downloading an app to make calls - it’s just such a fundamental, core feature, that I wouldn’t really think to go third-party for my daily usage. It’s not that it makes no sense, but I hope you can understand why that is a little surprising to some people.
I know that in the 20 years or so since I first got a cellphone I have just used whatever is on the phone natively. Nothing wrong with using WhatsApp, you do you. But that was how it used to be, and WhatsApp did not become so dominant until recently.
Not hard! Just unfamiliar that's all. Seems weird to me having just always used iMessage here in the states, which has awful interoperability with Android devices
the Android ios garbage, that's by design really terrible behaviour by Apple. it's not a technology limitation, it's on purpose to keep people using Apple.
Just unfamiliar that’s all. Seems weird to me having just always used iMessage here in the states, which has awful interoperability with Android devices
WhatsApp is also E2E and backup can also be encrypted (Atleast on Android).
I just hope we can Interoperability b/w Signal and WhatsApp.
Over here it's Facebook Messenger, followed by Telegram and only then WhatsApp. Signal is niche stuff for nerds such as yours truly.
Where I live it’s mostly whatsapp
Yeah it actually varies a lot. In Poland Whatsapp is the boomer messaging app for cringy political memes used exclusively by 50+ year-olds. Everyone else uses Facebook Messenger and Telegram (especially Ukrainians, Belarussians and people who work with them)
Depends on the country but mostly WhatsApp followed in second place by Telegram
Germany uses Whatsapp and Signal. Whatsapp for the older generation, Signal for the younger ones. But almost everyone has both. Telegram is a niche messenger for conspiracy theorists and alt-righters, because it's russian and those people love Russia.
Yea, that's totally why people I know use Telegram / 🤦♂️
Might be different in other countries, but in Germany its only used by them.
in Germany its only used by them.
Factually wrong.
i live in germany and to me telegram doesn't feel niche at all.
a lot of younger people use it a bit like discord, like for group stuff. organizing (like e.g. political activism), finding apartents in berlin, and yes, getting drugs as well. also some worklplaces use it (which i think is terrible). it is also preferred by a lot of people to communicate via telegram over signal or whatsapp in situations where people don't want to give away their number, like online dating.
Edgelord Easel
Viber
Eastern Europe, perhaos. Not really anywhere else in europe.
And I refuse to use any Facebook products, so what’s app can fuck right off
Not a problem for me lmao. No one I talk to uses apple products because we have self respect
I really hate that some people I know only use Facebook Messenger, some use Instagram, some use Discord, and some use text.
It's a nightmare when working in groups for uni, so I just email everyone. Email has all the features I like.
I have plenty of folks in my circles who never read or reply to emails :p
Yeah the vast, vast majority of folk use Android, it's Apple that fucked up SMS.
Fuck them, nobody uses SMS for that reason, let Apple sort it out, or be forced to by the EU again lol
This is so comically wrong I don’t know where to start. SMS was fucked from the get go, especially in the US where it was common to charge by the message for SMS. Seriously. It was $0.25 to send and $0.10 to receive them on a lot of people’s plans.
The wireless carriers fucked SMS, and will absolutely fuck up RCS - along with all the various providers out there. It’s a dogshit standard that isn’t broadly interoperable still.
iMessage was a breath of fresh air for people who did use SMS.
It's so weird to me that in the US you pay to receive messages or calls. Where I live the sender pays, or the caller pays. It doesn't cost to receive. Plus you normally get unlimited messages anyway, like even a approx US$10 a month plan will have unlimited SMS included and like 200 minutes of outbound calling, plus data.
If you're paying for messages received then people can send you unsolicited messages and it costs you money?
I think they’re now broadly free on all but the most restrictive plans- but when iMessage came to be they weren’t - and most phones wouldn’t split 160 characters into multiple messages. You were literally limited by that.
They used to charge extra if you were roaming too. I think T-Mobile was the first to stop and everyone followed.
You’re insanely correct, and it was extra fucked because it wasn’t even MORE DATA being used. It was piggybacking on unused data packets already being sent to towers, hence the character limit. BUT WE CAN NAKE MORE MONEY IF WE CHARGE FOR THAT
23 years ago, text messaging on Cingular was 100% fucking free.
Some of these people are just making up bullshit off the top of their heads.
Then Cingular was fucking DOPE.
I sold phones in 2006 and almost all (if not all) of the plans cost money per text. We did not have Cingular though!
You’re totally right but this is the android community…so we’re gonna need you to start sounding like the echoes here or you can leave.
/s
Sms was from a time communications weren't done over IP, RCS or iMessage use the IP protocol, RCS could be implemented by the telcos but isn't because , unlike SMS, it can also be implemented by anyone with a server with a connection to the internet but as RCS is an open GSMA telecom standard, it is implemented within all modem chips by phone makers, even Apple has a Qualcomm modem chip with RCS management included. I reckon it needs a few extra features in the basic standard such as E2E encryption, chatbot capabilities, malware and spoofing protection, maybe Google could help there as they have introduced those into their Message app and could disclose their code, but they are obviously trying hard to create a walled garden too... The solution could come from Meta as they seem pretty keen to advance on open communications (Threads interoperability with Mastodon is a demonstration of that policy)
iMessage was a breath of fresh air for people who did use SMS.
But even before the launch of iMessage it was dumb to communicate mainly over SMS simply because of how shitty it was back then.
let Apple sort it out, or be forced to by the EU again lol
The EU's Digital Markets Act doesn't care about niche messengers like iMessage.
Apple has already sorted it out. They announced support for RCS is coming.
Not in the US. Apple has about 60% of the market.
True, but my entire family uses iPhones and I made them all switch to Signal.
iMessage isn't required.
All my family uses Android, except for a few exceptions. They all dropped signal when it lost sms support. So we use sms instead, fucking cool move signal.
We don't use Signal for SMS, we use Signal for E2E encryption. Signal for SMS is useless.
I've basically started telling people to either message me on Signal or I likely won't respond in a timely manner, if ever. Not my problem. Urgent? Better call.
Dick move? Maybe. But fuck SMS and fuck iMessage.
Yeah I don't want to be a dick to my friends and family I guess.
Nah, that's like saying "I won't respond to a fax in a timely manner".
SMS is dated/dying/dead
The elephant in the room, of course, is that this is literally only a problem in the United States. Everywhere else in the world, folks are totally fine using messaging apps. WhatsApp is pretty popular worldwide, and there are regional favorites too. But, the point is, it’s only in the States that people seem to be against this idea. The answer for why is very much up for debate, but the conversation is, at this point, just getting exhausting.
Can confirm, as a Brit. We probably would have a sardonic explanation for why only people in the States are against using other messengers too...
I went to great lengths to get my family group chat migrated from FB Messenger over to WhatsApp, and then Meta bought WhatsApp. I'm doomed. I'll never get these Americans to transition to something like Signal
I'm Canadian and use a ton of messaging services. It had honestly become ridiculous until I started using Beeper!
Yep. In Japan we all use LINE with a small fraction of (largely Western foreigners) using whatsapp. Korea has kakaotalk with some (also?) using LINE. I'm not sure what's most popular in Chinese circles these days; WeChat, maybe?
I think this might be changing in the U.S., because my friend group only talks on Discord. I don't even have their phone numbers.
I still really miss Google Hangouts. It was integrated with Gmail as a web interface. The web and mobile app synced perfectly. You could use SMS/MMS, or chat, seamlessly in the same interface. Contacts worked correctly. SMS and chat history saved to Gmail so all the text was searchable. It was AMAZING and Google killed it for no reason, only to later replace it with inferior options.
Edit: oh yeah, you could also make phone calls, or group voice and video calls using the same app/web interface.
tell that to everyone i know
I want to use good apps, but my family members don't. I can't just avoid my family.
What is wrong with simply texting? If anyone tells me I need to get a specific app to message them, then I won't be messaging them.
Security is probably the most important, but there are also general chat utility features such as replies and read receipts.
This right here is the attitude that most people have, because it's not convenient for them. Suck it up, there are many things in life you do not want to do, but you have to do them anyways.
This is entirely a USA problem. No one in Europe uses iMessage as their primary messaging app.
What do they use? Whatsapp? Wechat? Signal?
Whatsapp
Interesting ty!
So before you can message anyone you have to download whatsapp? iMessage is preinstalled and is also e2e encrypted. Idk if I'd rather Facebook or Apple (who can access iCloud backups of normally otherwise encrypted data, etc.) in charge of my messaging infrastructure, honestly.
Americans with Android are left to use literal SMS which is atrocious, or a different messaging solution, probably whatsapp I guess
edit: I don't like iMessage or the current state of messaging in the US. I feel like all the default messaging apps should be able to communicate e2e encrypted via some shared standard or something-- it's weird to have to go third party
Americans with Android are stuck using SMS half the time because Americans with iPhones are literally holding us back. If it wasn't for iMessage, we would have ditched SMS years ago, but when you suggest to an iPhone user that they use something other than iMessage their head explodes, apparently.
Android users aren't in such a tiny minority over there. Even by pure chance, there should be a decent number of Android users initiating events but since even they are so obsessed with iMessage, they don't even try to use something else.
Yep, Android makes up around 40-45% of the mobile OS in America, depending on what site and when you look.
Yes and almost everyone around the world outside China and the USA does that. WhatsApp has 2 billion users.
Yes, most people in western Europe use Whatsapp. Yes, they have to download it before they can use it. Maybe some phones have it preinstalled, but most smartphone users do know how to download apps. More tech-savvy and privacy-conscious people often have Signal as well.
The whole point is: it isn't more often than not. And unlike Whatsapp, you can't even install it.
Every iPhone has iMessage preinstalled...
But since the context here is Europe: Android is used by the majority.
Even if it wasn't, technological illiteracy cannot justify imposing a vendor lock-in upon the others. Installing an independent messenger like Signal is not rocket science.
Not every phone is an iPhone though.
Most phones aren't iPhones actually.
Did we just go full circle and start bitching about apps not being preinstalled?
whatsapp is e2e encrypted
So they say.
So say the Signal people: https://signal.org/blog/there-is-no-whatsapp-backdoor/
Encrypted during transfer, yes, but still decrypted in the apps
In the congress hearing zucky boy did, he was asked whether Facebook could read Messenger and WhatsApp messages
his response was to more or less trip over himself avowing that Facebook couldn't read WhatsApp messages—even when a follow up question specifically asked him about Messenger, he chose to ignore it and reaffirm that WhatsApp messages were private
i don't really see why he would've done that unless WhatsApp actually was encrypted, given that if he were lying about one it would be a lot easier to just lie about both
Even FB Messenger: https://signal.org/blog/facebook-messenger/
It was optional for ages and recently read about it becoming the default.
i did say it was "also" e2e encrypted
Android users get to use the default messages app, with the whole e2e encryption, reactions, full sized photos etc... SMS is used for advertisements, and sending messages to iphone users... SMS is only used by old people for 2fa as 2fa apps usualy have superior security and are now systematically prefered by companies.
Both iphone users and android users need to download an extra app if they want E2E, full graphic images and videos, reactions etc...
Just as people aren't content with iWork and usually download Office because it works the same and can be read with the same formatting everywhere.
I love how this seems like a near insurmountable hurdle. Install an app?? On a phone?!
I have a relative who is ~85 years old; he uses WhatsApp. It's really not that hard.
It was just a question - I'm not remotely saying what you are
WhatsApp became the dominant messaging platform in Europe before Facebook bought them. Most people are locked in to it because change is hard and they don't care that much about privacy.
WhatsApp uses Signal's encryption and according to https://signal.org/blog/there-is-no-whatsapp-backdoor/ has no backdoor.
The privacy concerns are not that Meta will read your messages (because they can't, as you mention), but the metadata they can read such as your details and who you contact.
https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/blog/a-cheat-sheet-for-whatsapp-privacy/
Every provider of communication services can. Singling out WhatsApp in that regard makes no sense. Apple happily hands over metadata and iCloud backups to the FBI.
Signal does not, since they use Sealed Sender.
So Signal's corporate customers (like Meta with WhatsApp) do the same then?
Ultimately I just don’t trust meta at all. I trust Apple slightly more. Which still isn’t much, but it’s more.
It must be so difficult to spend 2 whole seconds downloading an app to use for messaging. and yes it's end to end encrypted too.
There’s no need to be a jerk. For some of us it is just unexpected to hear that folks have phones where they download their primary messaging app. It would be like downloading an app to make calls - it’s just such a fundamental, core feature, that I wouldn’t really think to go third-party for my daily usage. It’s not that it makes no sense, but I hope you can understand why that is a little surprising to some people.
I know that in the 20 years or so since I first got a cellphone I have just used whatever is on the phone natively. Nothing wrong with using WhatsApp, you do you. But that was how it used to be, and WhatsApp did not become so dominant until recently.
Not hard! Just unfamiliar that's all. Seems weird to me having just always used iMessage here in the states, which has awful interoperability with Android devices
the Android ios garbage, that's by design really terrible behaviour by Apple. it's not a technology limitation, it's on purpose to keep people using Apple.
How do the 87% FB Messenger users manage to do that? https://www.statista.com/chart/25030/popular-messaging-and-video-chat-apps-in-the-us/
WhatsApp is also E2E and backup can also be encrypted (Atleast on Android).
I just hope we can Interoperability b/w Signal and WhatsApp.
Over here it's Facebook Messenger, followed by Telegram and only then WhatsApp. Signal is niche stuff for nerds such as yours truly.
Where I live it’s mostly whatsapp
Yeah it actually varies a lot. In Poland Whatsapp is the boomer messaging app for cringy political memes used exclusively by 50+ year-olds. Everyone else uses Facebook Messenger and Telegram (especially Ukrainians, Belarussians and people who work with them)
Depends on the country but mostly WhatsApp followed in second place by Telegram
Germany uses Whatsapp and Signal. Whatsapp for the older generation, Signal for the younger ones. But almost everyone has both. Telegram is a niche messenger for conspiracy theorists and alt-righters, because it's russian and those people love Russia.
Yea, that's totally why people I know use Telegram / 🤦♂️
Might be different in other countries, but in Germany its only used by them.
Factually wrong.
i live in germany and to me telegram doesn't feel niche at all.
a lot of younger people use it a bit like discord, like for group stuff. organizing (like e.g. political activism), finding apartents in berlin, and yes, getting drugs as well. also some worklplaces use it (which i think is terrible). it is also preferred by a lot of people to communicate via telegram over signal or whatsapp in situations where people don't want to give away their number, like online dating.
Edgelord Easel
Viber
Eastern Europe, perhaos. Not really anywhere else in europe.
And I refuse to use any Facebook products, so what’s app can fuck right off
Not a problem for me lmao. No one I talk to uses apple products because we have self respect
I really hate that some people I know only use Facebook Messenger, some use Instagram, some use Discord, and some use text.
It's a nightmare when working in groups for uni, so I just email everyone. Email has all the features I like.
I have plenty of folks in my circles who never read or reply to emails :p
Yeah the vast, vast majority of folk use Android, it's Apple that fucked up SMS.
Fuck them, nobody uses SMS for that reason, let Apple sort it out, or be forced to by the EU again lol
This is so comically wrong I don’t know where to start. SMS was fucked from the get go, especially in the US where it was common to charge by the message for SMS. Seriously. It was $0.25 to send and $0.10 to receive them on a lot of people’s plans.
The wireless carriers fucked SMS, and will absolutely fuck up RCS - along with all the various providers out there. It’s a dogshit standard that isn’t broadly interoperable still.
iMessage was a breath of fresh air for people who did use SMS.
It's so weird to me that in the US you pay to receive messages or calls. Where I live the sender pays, or the caller pays. It doesn't cost to receive. Plus you normally get unlimited messages anyway, like even a approx US$10 a month plan will have unlimited SMS included and like 200 minutes of outbound calling, plus data.
If you're paying for messages received then people can send you unsolicited messages and it costs you money?
I think they’re now broadly free on all but the most restrictive plans- but when iMessage came to be they weren’t - and most phones wouldn’t split 160 characters into multiple messages. You were literally limited by that.
They used to charge extra if you were roaming too. I think T-Mobile was the first to stop and everyone followed.
You’re insanely correct, and it was extra fucked because it wasn’t even MORE DATA being used. It was piggybacking on unused data packets already being sent to towers, hence the character limit. BUT WE CAN NAKE MORE MONEY IF WE CHARGE FOR THAT
23 years ago, text messaging on Cingular was 100% fucking free.
Some of these people are just making up bullshit off the top of their heads.
Then Cingular was fucking DOPE.
I sold phones in 2006 and almost all (if not all) of the plans cost money per text. We did not have Cingular though!
You’re totally right but this is the android community…so we’re gonna need you to start sounding like the echoes here or you can leave.
/s
Sms was from a time communications weren't done over IP, RCS or iMessage use the IP protocol, RCS could be implemented by the telcos but isn't because , unlike SMS, it can also be implemented by anyone with a server with a connection to the internet but as RCS is an open GSMA telecom standard, it is implemented within all modem chips by phone makers, even Apple has a Qualcomm modem chip with RCS management included. I reckon it needs a few extra features in the basic standard such as E2E encryption, chatbot capabilities, malware and spoofing protection, maybe Google could help there as they have introduced those into their Message app and could disclose their code, but they are obviously trying hard to create a walled garden too... The solution could come from Meta as they seem pretty keen to advance on open communications (Threads interoperability with Mastodon is a demonstration of that policy)
But even before the launch of iMessage it was dumb to communicate mainly over SMS simply because of how shitty it was back then.
The EU's Digital Markets Act doesn't care about niche messengers like iMessage.
Apple has already sorted it out. They announced support for RCS is coming.
Not in the US. Apple has about 60% of the market.
True, but my entire family uses iPhones and I made them all switch to Signal.
iMessage isn't required.
All my family uses Android, except for a few exceptions. They all dropped signal when it lost sms support. So we use sms instead, fucking cool move signal.
We don't use Signal for SMS, we use Signal for E2E encryption. Signal for SMS is useless.
I've basically started telling people to either message me on Signal or I likely won't respond in a timely manner, if ever. Not my problem. Urgent? Better call.
Dick move? Maybe. But fuck SMS and fuck iMessage.
Yeah I don't want to be a dick to my friends and family I guess.
Nah, that's like saying "I won't respond to a fax in a timely manner".
SMS is dated/dying/dead
Can confirm, as a Brit. We probably would have a sardonic explanation for why only people in the States are against using other messengers too...
I went to great lengths to get my family group chat migrated from FB Messenger over to WhatsApp, and then Meta bought WhatsApp. I'm doomed. I'll never get these Americans to transition to something like Signal
I'm Canadian and use a ton of messaging services. It had honestly become ridiculous until I started using Beeper!
Yep. In Japan we all use LINE with a small fraction of (largely Western foreigners) using whatsapp. Korea has kakaotalk with some (also?) using LINE. I'm not sure what's most popular in Chinese circles these days; WeChat, maybe?
I think this might be changing in the U.S., because my friend group only talks on Discord. I don't even have their phone numbers.
I still really miss Google Hangouts. It was integrated with Gmail as a web interface. The web and mobile app synced perfectly. You could use SMS/MMS, or chat, seamlessly in the same interface. Contacts worked correctly. SMS and chat history saved to Gmail so all the text was searchable. It was AMAZING and Google killed it for no reason, only to later replace it with inferior options.
Edit: oh yeah, you could also make phone calls, or group voice and video calls using the same app/web interface.
tell that to everyone i know
I want to use good apps, but my family members don't. I can't just avoid my family.
What is wrong with simply texting? If anyone tells me I need to get a specific app to message them, then I won't be messaging them.
Security is probably the most important, but there are also general chat utility features such as replies and read receipts.
This right here is the attitude that most people have, because it's not convenient for them. Suck it up, there are many things in life you do not want to do, but you have to do them anyways.