I think it’s a cool idea in principle. I just don’t trust the company with my data even if they claim it is stored locally, but then again that’s why I don’t use their OS.
Yeah, I'd totally use whatever FOSS equivalent eventually makes it to the Linux desktop once it's actually usable.
Gpt4all is avalible on linux, it is an open source software that can run LLMs locally.
That's not an alternative to Microsoft Recall. It doesn't take screenshots to record your activity.
I agree, but its better than nothing. I'm sorry I mislead you.
It might not be long if the idea works. We already have good local LLMs.
Well at least this surely will be easily disabled and then not keep re-enabling itself when Windows forgets its own settings every couple weeks(!)
It won't on... wait for it... Linux!
I use arch btw /s
Sure.
Then you get the occasional fun experience of a maintainer fucking up a package definition or two, and all of a sudden you can't update your system or run a program because there's a tangled mess of dependency conflicts and you get to spend the afternoon force reinstalling system libraries. Love ya' Void :')
Been trying NixOS which is great for avoiding that kind of thing, but it comes with it's own set of annoyances. I really ought to just settle on a more stable distro like Debian lol.
Debian is good :)
I myself love Guix, though, so I get why you wanna run NixOS as well.
I'm not even going to install Windows 11
Yeah, I've been trying for over a decade to switch to Linux, but the pain points have been too much for me. This is it though, MS is making it impossible to continue with their spyware crap. I have to find a way to make the switch before 10 reaches end of life.
I tried the switch a while back and gave up. I tried a few months ago again with Mint and I haven't looked back. Now I'm looking to change to another distro. Mint is the perfect Linux entry drug. Just install it on another drive if you have one kicking around so you don't commit to destroying your windows install just yet.
I've tried Mint and Ubuntu and other flavours I can't always remember, various different frontends, I've used Raspbian, octopi, I've installed alternative Android OSes, and none of them have alleviated the pain of installing an OS that fucks up basic things on a regular basis.
Hell, just yesterday I was following a tutorial on how to install an audio amplifier on a retropie and it just failed. The audio test keeps going wrong in different ways each time I try. Every piece of hardware and software involved was known to the tutorial and matched to mine exactly, and still something unknown went wrong and I'll have to hunt down the reason. Something to do with GPIONext.service not starting properly. It's going to be a painful couple of hours mashing my face against this issue until I can figure it out, at the very least.
Like, nice pitch but I've heard too many times "this flavour of Linux is the perfect beginner distro!" only to find that no, this platform has more rough edge than surface and a fresh coat of paint hasn't changed that.
All I'm saying is that if a ubiquitous AI spy is the future of Windows then I guess I am forced to deal with that pain if the only alternative I can envision is to walk into the sea and never return.
Same, Linux has always been a cool Idea but not worth going through the trouble of installing, now Microsoft is making the alternative way more trouble.
I went to Linux because a colleague next to me handed me a Fedora DVD after having issues with company Windows.
I installed Linux many times on various hardware configurations since then.
I don't think I've ever had a pain installing it, perhaps once when Ubuntu had messed up installer with custom LUKS setup.
Yeah I tried installing it a year or two ago, but a lot of the hardware on my laptop (only machine atm) was not compatible. It was stuff like the touchpad not even being detected.
I booted into the same install iso a few months ago and somehow it all worked.
It's a shit show sometimes, but it can surprise you
I recall there's some sort of driver called synaptic that makes touchpads work, but the only reason you even need to think about it is because hardware manufacturers don't make drivers for linux, and that's a large source of the problems.
The linux evangelists can say that's not linux's fault, but it is linux's problem, and so far the solutions are incomplete.
I remember when Windows 95 came out and my dad explained to me that microsoft had made the system so successful by working with manufacturers to build a database of drivers for every conceivable piece of hardware, so the system would work on almost any machine.
Prior to that I remember having to know what brand of soundcard I had so I could manually configure it within each individual game I wanted to play using a command line based tool. I had to remember Creative Sound Blaster and hunt it down in the menus. Linux doesn't have that, in fact there's still a lot of messing about with command line based tools.
A few years back, I had to compile a kernel with random patches to get the trackpad running on my razer blade (2018) working.
When it works, it's magic. I got better power usage using powertop than I was getting on Windows. When it doesn't, it's not something someone with no tech experience can fix, sadly.
All this fuckery convinced me to start experimenting with Linux, just keeping windows on a backup PC for the couple of games that may not work...
I had been doing that since 2018 and this year I realized I hadn't booted to Windows for years and uninstalled it.
I'm not a Linux expert at all, I use the GUI for 99% of tasks and I'm having a great time.
Even if this data wasn’t stolen by Microsoft (it will be) and sold to every advertiser everywhere (it WILL BE)
Having screenshots taken of your PC every few seconds and then stored on your hard drive is going to nuke your storage in a matter of days, maybe weeks at the most
According to available information that I've come across, everything is processed on-device and encrypted and 25gb can store months of rewind data depending on how much and how you use your device. At that rate, a terabyte should store about a decade of history (I can't think of anything you would need to go that far back for though).
If security researchers don't find sussy behavior where Recall sends back some sort of data beyond basic telemetry, there's not really any higher of a privacy risk compared to using your computer as you currently do. Also you can disable it for certain applications and delete history when you want to (or disable the feature altogether). People are being really weird about this for reasons that have already been addressed.
Here’s the issue, though. It’s a corporation saying they pinky promise not to steal even more of your data, and I don’t trust them any more than I can purchase their company
That is to say, not even a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a thousandth of a percent
Just like Apple gives you the optiom to disallow tracking but their definition of tracking leaves a lot of room for data to be collected and shared with 3rd party
So happy Windows is protecting us from spyware and malware.
Now, we have to protect ourselves from Microsoft.
For somebody who's last windows experience was windows 7: what did they come up now again?
Now introducing Microsoft dildonics. We will tell you when to put it in your holes.
I don't expect MS will give you the choice. Not as far as the whole spying on you part is concerned, at least.
I'll use it at work because I don't give a fuck about that machine but not for my personal machine.
I predict GNUL desktop at 5%
Like the F in "Oh, what a bleak, horrible future we live in!"
I don't get the hate for this. It's just browser history but for your whole PC. The number of times this would have saved people from losing important documents or unfucking things they did wrong up to this point makes me wonder how they never thought of this before now.
The whole PC isn’t a browser, there are things that I don’t want saved every few seconds, with potentially sensitive details. Bank or medical info is a bit different than having a link to a webpage. And no, I don’t believe all this will stay local. Even if not straight away, it will eventually be sold to advertisers one way or another
I definitely don't want Microsoft reading my Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy erotica fanfiction, that's shit is between me, not God, and kinky Marvin.
"For as massive as it was, even Marvin with his planet sized mind couldn't pinpoint the exact moment the pain in the diodes down his left side turned to pleasure. The safe word remained well behind his moist lips"...
Pure gold.
I've been seeing that comic for so long, and I've just realised I got the narrative backwards. I always thought the person handing the item over in the first panel was the plagiarist, and the person receiving it was saying "you made this?" in confusion, then waiting a moment and acknowledging that yes, they have just been given back the thing they made and told someone else made it.
Now I realise it's probably meant to be read that the original maker is on the left, and the plagiarist on the right is just waiting till they're gone to take credit for it.
I think that says a lot about your character though. You'd be sad someone took it from you, but you'd move on. Whereas someone else may see the world as a darker place where everyone is trying to steal what little they've created.
I think your interpretation tells me you're an amazing person.
I'm torn between saying, "I think that's a bit of a stretch," and saying, "Why thank you, you're absolutely right, and very insightful too."
We'll compromise and call it a stretch, where I was accidentally right.
Perfect.
The subtle clue is the hat the first guy's wearing, like he just made it in his workshop. At least, I think it's a hat!
Just remember, the fanfiction can always be worse.
If files on your hard drive are sold to advertisers, they don't need to bother with uploading screenshots.
I think this is key. There’s many ways Microsoft can provide your data without literally providing it. For example, they can build a profile about you and sell that instead.
Dingdingding!
We have a winner
Are you sure I shouldn't just ask Microsoft to pretty please keylog everything I do on any computer ever? I mean that seems reasonable to me that seems like what a reasonable corporation would do. \s
OK but my whole browser history doesn't get sent to Microsoft to be processed by an AI.
it's on-device
Lol, you should do stand-up.
Assuming they don't quietly change that, and assuming they can even be trusted in the first place.
running locally using dedicated hardware in snapdragon cpu is kinda the whole point of the thing though.
also it's not really going to work otherwise, think about it for a second. How useful is a "recall" feature that only remembers moments where you were connected to the internet? also processing such a huge amount of data online is not a feasible task.
also the whole point of the locked down "ai" features (and windows 11 itself lol) is to boost hardware sales. they're not going to make it work on other devices through the "cloud" at least for that reason alone.
They'll have a smorgasbord of data and an AI to process it. If it's not monetized from the start it will be, they're just normalizing it, easing the tip in.
I created an Excel spreadsheet 10 years ago on my laptop. I never agreed to upload it.
I can see it on my phone right now.
because you saved it into onedrive?
which is the default save location in ms office unless you switch it to local (it's not like it uploads stuff automatically tho, it's just the default folder it shows you)
^device may vary and is not necessarily the device owned and operated by the end user. Microsoft™️ and its subsidiaries and partners reserve the right to change and or modify your data at any point without prior notice and in providing this service may process relevant and non relavent user data at or nearby remote locations. Color may vary. Your statutory rights are unaffected.^
They have thought of it before. Autosaving, backup, restore functions that regularly took snapshots of your drive and saved it just in case some shit happened, etc. This is just another thing they can slap AI on and claim is innovating when it really isn't.
So is this like that Time Capsule thing that apple used to do (maybe still does)? I think I'm OOTL.
Like that, but filtered through an AI.
Features: questions like "Hey, where's that file I worked on last week", "What was that recipe I found the other day" or "hey can you pull up a copy of this document from 3 days ago so I can compare them" all work. Its nice to be able to just do that, and you can apply all the normal AI editing things to them, too. They're all available.
Downside: a black box AI system the user doesn't have full control over has the right to record literally everything you do on your computer. They promise its local, for now, but not only is Microsoft not trustworthy in that regard, even if they're honest we don't know if or when they'll change that policy. I would not be surprised if the next step was "A small amount of none identifiable information is transmitted to our servers" snuck in, and they used that permission to have Microsoft Recall answer queries for advertisers directly, technically without ever identifying you. Advertisers could directly ask your own computer for all the info they'll ever need.
And, yes, Mac still has Time Machine. Linux has its own version, too. Both are very handy and I've used them each personally. In my personal opinion, a basic search with time machine does enough of Microsoft recall's job that I'm not going near it, but honestly at least you're getting functionality out of them selling your data, so it could be worse.
I see... I'm not sure that I like that. It sounds convenient though, so it'll almost certainly stick.
It'll stick anyway because Microsoft is not about to let all that data go. It's great for training better AI and for advertising, and those seem to be the only businesses in big tech lately.
"it's local, for now"
running locally is kinda the whole point of the thing
Time Machine (which is an excellent feature on macOS btw and isn't advertised nearly enough by Apple), but Recall sounds more like an automatic clipboard history that saves more than just text and copied images, not something that lets you roll back to a previous state.
I came across rewind.ai for macos a year ago and have wanted something like this for windows/linux ever since. As long as this is all processed on-device as promised, I'm super excited and it might actually be enough to get me to upgrade from Windows 10 to 11. Except I think it requires an NPU which afaik my ~epic gamer pc~ doesn't have, so maybe in the future.
Quaid, start the reactor.
Say the L word instead
That's ligma, perverts.
Sorry to ask, but what is a "Microsoft Recall"?
From the MS website:
Recall utilizes Windows Copilot Runtime to help you find anything you’ve seen on your PC. Search using any clues you remember or use the timeline to scroll through your past activity, including apps, documents, and websites.
A "feature" coming to Windows 11. Essentially a keylogger on steroids... Powered by AI of course, because what isn't these days.
Holy Shit. And here I am, hosting my own messaging, automation and syncronization services to be independend on providers, run AI locally, do not even leave emails on the server and they pull that stunt.
Yeah, kinda beating a dead horse here, but it's giving "2024, Year of the Linux Desktop, inadvertently sponsored by Microsoft."
My last Windows was 7 and that's already some years ago.
Homer looks like that ape nft
Oh man, someone just released a stand up bit about this -
Government applications - Connor O'Malley
https://youtu.be/796IdEW5yfI
I think it’s a cool idea in principle. I just don’t trust the company with my data even if they claim it is stored locally, but then again that’s why I don’t use their OS.
Yeah, I'd totally use whatever FOSS equivalent eventually makes it to the Linux desktop once it's actually usable.
Gpt4all is avalible on linux, it is an open source software that can run LLMs locally.
That's not an alternative to Microsoft Recall. It doesn't take screenshots to record your activity.
I agree, but its better than nothing. I'm sorry I mislead you.
It might not be long if the idea works. We already have good local LLMs.
Well at least this surely will be easily disabled and then not keep re-enabling itself when Windows forgets its own settings every couple weeks(!)
It won't on... wait for it... Linux!
I use arch btw /s
Sure.
Then you get the occasional fun experience of a maintainer fucking up a package definition or two, and all of a sudden you can't update your system or run a program because there's a tangled mess of dependency conflicts and you get to spend the afternoon force reinstalling system libraries. Love ya' Void :')
Been trying NixOS which is great for avoiding that kind of thing, but it comes with it's own set of annoyances. I really ought to just settle on a more stable distro like Debian lol.
Debian is good :)
I myself love Guix, though, so I get why you wanna run NixOS as well.
I'm not even going to install Windows 11
Yeah, I've been trying for over a decade to switch to Linux, but the pain points have been too much for me. This is it though, MS is making it impossible to continue with their spyware crap. I have to find a way to make the switch before 10 reaches end of life.
I tried the switch a while back and gave up. I tried a few months ago again with Mint and I haven't looked back. Now I'm looking to change to another distro. Mint is the perfect Linux entry drug. Just install it on another drive if you have one kicking around so you don't commit to destroying your windows install just yet.
I've tried Mint and Ubuntu and other flavours I can't always remember, various different frontends, I've used Raspbian, octopi, I've installed alternative Android OSes, and none of them have alleviated the pain of installing an OS that fucks up basic things on a regular basis.
Hell, just yesterday I was following a tutorial on how to install an audio amplifier on a retropie and it just failed. The audio test keeps going wrong in different ways each time I try. Every piece of hardware and software involved was known to the tutorial and matched to mine exactly, and still something unknown went wrong and I'll have to hunt down the reason. Something to do with GPIONext.service not starting properly. It's going to be a painful couple of hours mashing my face against this issue until I can figure it out, at the very least.
Like, nice pitch but I've heard too many times "this flavour of Linux is the perfect beginner distro!" only to find that no, this platform has more rough edge than surface and a fresh coat of paint hasn't changed that.
All I'm saying is that if a ubiquitous AI spy is the future of Windows then I guess I am forced to deal with that pain if the only alternative I can envision is to walk into the sea and never return.
Same, Linux has always been a cool Idea but not worth going through the trouble of installing, now Microsoft is making the alternative way more trouble.
I went to Linux because a colleague next to me handed me a Fedora DVD after having issues with company Windows.
I installed Linux many times on various hardware configurations since then.
I don't think I've ever had a pain installing it, perhaps once when Ubuntu had messed up installer with custom LUKS setup.
Yeah I tried installing it a year or two ago, but a lot of the hardware on my laptop (only machine atm) was not compatible. It was stuff like the touchpad not even being detected. I booted into the same install iso a few months ago and somehow it all worked.
It's a shit show sometimes, but it can surprise you
I recall there's some sort of driver called synaptic that makes touchpads work, but the only reason you even need to think about it is because hardware manufacturers don't make drivers for linux, and that's a large source of the problems.
The linux evangelists can say that's not linux's fault, but it is linux's problem, and so far the solutions are incomplete.
I remember when Windows 95 came out and my dad explained to me that microsoft had made the system so successful by working with manufacturers to build a database of drivers for every conceivable piece of hardware, so the system would work on almost any machine.
Prior to that I remember having to know what brand of soundcard I had so I could manually configure it within each individual game I wanted to play using a command line based tool. I had to remember Creative Sound Blaster and hunt it down in the menus. Linux doesn't have that, in fact there's still a lot of messing about with command line based tools.
A few years back, I had to compile a kernel with random patches to get the trackpad running on my razer blade (2018) working.
When it works, it's magic. I got better power usage using powertop than I was getting on Windows. When it doesn't, it's not something someone with no tech experience can fix, sadly.
All this fuckery convinced me to start experimenting with Linux, just keeping windows on a backup PC for the couple of games that may not work...
I had been doing that since 2018 and this year I realized I hadn't booted to Windows for years and uninstalled it.
I'm not a Linux expert at all, I use the GUI for 99% of tasks and I'm having a great time.
Even if this data wasn’t stolen by Microsoft (it will be) and sold to every advertiser everywhere (it WILL BE)
Having screenshots taken of your PC every few seconds and then stored on your hard drive is going to nuke your storage in a matter of days, maybe weeks at the most
According to available information that I've come across, everything is processed on-device and encrypted and 25gb can store months of rewind data depending on how much and how you use your device. At that rate, a terabyte should store about a decade of history (I can't think of anything you would need to go that far back for though).
If security researchers don't find sussy behavior where Recall sends back some sort of data beyond basic telemetry, there's not really any higher of a privacy risk compared to using your computer as you currently do. Also you can disable it for certain applications and delete history when you want to (or disable the feature altogether). People are being really weird about this for reasons that have already been addressed.
Here’s the issue, though. It’s a corporation saying they pinky promise not to steal even more of your data, and I don’t trust them any more than I can purchase their company
That is to say, not even a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a thousandth of a percent
Just like Apple gives you the optiom to disallow tracking but their definition of tracking leaves a lot of room for data to be collected and shared with 3rd party
So happy Windows is protecting us from spyware and malware.
Now, we have to protect ourselves from Microsoft.
For somebody who's last windows experience was windows 7: what did they come up now again?
Now introducing Microsoft dildonics. We will tell you when to put it in your holes.
I don't expect MS will give you the choice. Not as far as the whole spying on you part is concerned, at least.
I'll use it at work because I don't give a fuck about that machine but not for my personal machine.
I predict GNUL desktop at 5%
Like the F in "Oh, what a bleak, horrible future we live in!"
I don't get the hate for this. It's just browser history but for your whole PC. The number of times this would have saved people from losing important documents or unfucking things they did wrong up to this point makes me wonder how they never thought of this before now.
The whole PC isn’t a browser, there are things that I don’t want saved every few seconds, with potentially sensitive details. Bank or medical info is a bit different than having a link to a webpage. And no, I don’t believe all this will stay local. Even if not straight away, it will eventually be sold to advertisers one way or another
I definitely don't want Microsoft reading my Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy erotica fanfiction, that's shit is between me, not God, and kinky Marvin.
"For as massive as it was, even Marvin with his planet sized mind couldn't pinpoint the exact moment the pain in the diodes down his left side turned to pleasure. The safe word remained well behind his moist lips"...
Pure gold.
I've been seeing that comic for so long, and I've just realised I got the narrative backwards. I always thought the person handing the item over in the first panel was the plagiarist, and the person receiving it was saying "you made this?" in confusion, then waiting a moment and acknowledging that yes, they have just been given back the thing they made and told someone else made it.
Now I realise it's probably meant to be read that the original maker is on the left, and the plagiarist on the right is just waiting till they're gone to take credit for it.
I think that says a lot about your character though. You'd be sad someone took it from you, but you'd move on. Whereas someone else may see the world as a darker place where everyone is trying to steal what little they've created.
I think your interpretation tells me you're an amazing person.
I'm torn between saying, "I think that's a bit of a stretch," and saying, "Why thank you, you're absolutely right, and very insightful too."
We'll compromise and call it a stretch, where I was accidentally right.
Perfect.
The subtle clue is the hat the first guy's wearing, like he just made it in his workshop. At least, I think it's a hat!
Just remember, the fanfiction can always be worse.
If files on your hard drive are sold to advertisers, they don't need to bother with uploading screenshots.
I think this is key. There’s many ways Microsoft can provide your data without literally providing it. For example, they can build a profile about you and sell that instead.
Dingdingding! We have a winner
Are you sure I shouldn't just ask Microsoft to pretty please keylog everything I do on any computer ever? I mean that seems reasonable to me that seems like what a reasonable corporation would do. \s
OK but my whole browser history doesn't get sent to Microsoft to be processed by an AI.
it's on-device
Lol, you should do stand-up.
Assuming they don't quietly change that, and assuming they can even be trusted in the first place.
running locally using dedicated hardware in snapdragon cpu is kinda the whole point of the thing though.
also it's not really going to work otherwise, think about it for a second. How useful is a "recall" feature that only remembers moments where you were connected to the internet? also processing such a huge amount of data online is not a feasible task.
also the whole point of the locked down "ai" features (and windows 11 itself lol) is to boost hardware sales. they're not going to make it work on other devices through the "cloud" at least for that reason alone.
They'll have a smorgasbord of data and an AI to process it. If it's not monetized from the start it will be, they're just normalizing it, easing the tip in.
I created an Excel spreadsheet 10 years ago on my laptop. I never agreed to upload it.
I can see it on my phone right now.
because you saved it into onedrive?
which is the default save location in ms office unless you switch it to local (it's not like it uploads stuff automatically tho, it's just the default folder it shows you)
^device may vary and is not necessarily the device owned and operated by the end user. Microsoft™️ and its subsidiaries and partners reserve the right to change and or modify your data at any point without prior notice and in providing this service may process relevant and non relavent user data at or nearby remote locations. Color may vary. Your statutory rights are unaffected.^
They have thought of it before. Autosaving, backup, restore functions that regularly took snapshots of your drive and saved it just in case some shit happened, etc. This is just another thing they can slap AI on and claim is innovating when it really isn't.
So is this like that Time Capsule thing that apple used to do (maybe still does)? I think I'm OOTL.
Like that, but filtered through an AI.
Features: questions like "Hey, where's that file I worked on last week", "What was that recipe I found the other day" or "hey can you pull up a copy of this document from 3 days ago so I can compare them" all work. Its nice to be able to just do that, and you can apply all the normal AI editing things to them, too. They're all available.
Downside: a black box AI system the user doesn't have full control over has the right to record literally everything you do on your computer. They promise its local, for now, but not only is Microsoft not trustworthy in that regard, even if they're honest we don't know if or when they'll change that policy. I would not be surprised if the next step was "A small amount of none identifiable information is transmitted to our servers" snuck in, and they used that permission to have Microsoft Recall answer queries for advertisers directly, technically without ever identifying you. Advertisers could directly ask your own computer for all the info they'll ever need.
And, yes, Mac still has Time Machine. Linux has its own version, too. Both are very handy and I've used them each personally. In my personal opinion, a basic search with time machine does enough of Microsoft recall's job that I'm not going near it, but honestly at least you're getting functionality out of them selling your data, so it could be worse.
I see... I'm not sure that I like that. It sounds convenient though, so it'll almost certainly stick.
It'll stick anyway because Microsoft is not about to let all that data go. It's great for training better AI and for advertising, and those seem to be the only businesses in big tech lately.
"it's local, for now"
running locally is kinda the whole point of the thing
Time Machine (which is an excellent feature on macOS btw and isn't advertised nearly enough by Apple), but Recall sounds more like an automatic clipboard history that saves more than just text and copied images, not something that lets you roll back to a previous state.
I came across rewind.ai for macos a year ago and have wanted something like this for windows/linux ever since. As long as this is all processed on-device as promised, I'm super excited and it might actually be enough to get me to upgrade from Windows 10 to 11. Except I think it requires an NPU which afaik my ~epic gamer pc~ doesn't have, so maybe in the future.
Quaid, start the reactor.
Say the L word instead
That's ligma, perverts.
Sorry to ask, but what is a "Microsoft Recall"?
From the MS website:
A "feature" coming to Windows 11. Essentially a keylogger on steroids... Powered by AI of course, because what isn't these days.
Holy Shit. And here I am, hosting my own messaging, automation and syncronization services to be independend on providers, run AI locally, do not even leave emails on the server and they pull that stunt.
Yeah, kinda beating a dead horse here, but it's giving "2024, Year of the Linux Desktop, inadvertently sponsored by Microsoft."
My last Windows was 7 and that's already some years ago.
Homer looks like that ape nft
Oh man, someone just released a stand up bit about this - Government applications - Connor O'Malley https://youtu.be/796IdEW5yfI
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/796IdEW5yfI
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
That wasn't bad! Very relevant
Also, damn! Democrats are so fucked in Nov