My husband sharpened a friend of mine’s meat cleaver for her. I knew I’d be seeing her at the library later, so I folded it inside cardboard and put it in a reusable shopping bag for her. At no point did I worry about anyone stopping me, and if they had, I would have expected them to believe me about what happened.
Everything went according to plan and I wouldn’t have thought anything of it, if my husband hadn’t been so surprised that I gave her the knife in public.
It never occurred to me to feel repressed because I can't walk around with a meat cleaver, but now it's on my mind.
Where do you live where this could be problematic?!
Mostly things that fall under the category of women not being able to be a threat/dangerous. Especially white women, which im usually read as.
This includes everything from talking to children in public to actual minor crimes like shoplifting.
Funnily enough, as a kid I always associated shoplifting with women stealing cosmetics and once saw a woman run past me with a security guard chasing after her. It's one of the only crimes I do associate primarily with women but only because of circumstance. Lol
This is why Israeli spies are mostly women.... It's super easy for them to gain trust and get away with things. Just an "oops silly mistake" and a smile gets you out of trouble. :)
Woman, not girl. I'm an adult and expect to be treated as such.
I feel no pressure to respond to aggression with physical violence. I recently sat through two friends (men) talking about how they feel too old to fight but if a strange guy were to roll up to them under certain conditions, they would have "no choice" but to physically fight them. I have never felt the need to physically fight a woman who disagreed with me. I would consider it a win and a good reflection on me if I could deescalate or remove myself from the situation.
Most other things I can think of are a double edged sword. Like being seen as a "girl" instead of a fully functioning, self-sufficient woman is usually a negative, but I can twist it in my favor to avoid things sometimes. I see other people commenting about women being able to interact with children without being seen as a potential pedophile, but that only comes because society expects women to do all the child-carrying.
I'm a guy and I've never felt the need to fight either. I've had women disappointed that I wouldn't fight someone for them, but they might have a weapon, and they almost certainly have friends and could come back later! I don't see a world where it's worth the risk for me to fight someone other than immediate self defense and even that is usually avoidable. (Every time, so far)
Oh and miss me with puffing myself up "what! You got beef??" -type nonsense. I refuse to be a dog barking on a chain just for some stupid social standing stuff.
The only times I'm worried about a fight is if I'm somewhere and someone with a mental illness might start something. Like the other day on the train someone was yelling very loudly to the car in general and being aggressive to people.
I wanted to do anything but fight, but I was mentally prepping in case I had to protect my step daughter. I was so relieved when he eventually went to a different car. I was even thinking of getting off and waiting for the next train.
That's something that I've seen happen before. Also I always avoid older teens that think they're hot shit and invincible.
Hey everyone! I'm an adult too! You can refer to me as 'his lordliness' and I expect to be treated as such.
There are certain scenarios where it's not an urge to fight, it's a necessity. Be a victim, or fight. It sounds like your friends were commenting on that type of scenario. As a woman you've probably never considered fighting an option in those scenarios, which is why you've never thought about it.
Really... Being called girl is offensive now 🙄...
I don't know you, why should I know that you want to be called a woman? And adult, even mature men are called "boys" even between them. Again, I don't understand you first statement.
Hi, man here. I obviously can't speak for women, but I can answer your question from my perspective.
"Girl" is a term used for young, inexperienced, non-adult female humans. When you call an adult woman a girl, you imply that she, her thoughts, and opinions are juvenile, and therefore are not to be taken as seriously as those of an adult of equal standing among other adults. It's called "infantilizing" and is disrespectful to that women, and realistically to all women.
For a moment, imagine you're with another man you don't know and when you say something, he contradicts you and begins to address you as "boy" or "son" in his response. His intent is to diminish you as a person and make you feel small, inferior or less a man or expert as him.
Now, I don't know what country you come from or if English is your first language; this cultural aspect can apply to other English speaking countries, but specifically I'm talking about the US. One could certainly be forgiven for speaking English as a second language or not being from the US and not knowing this specific thing. I hope this helps.
One last edit, or this is going to bother me:
Really... Being called girl is offensive now 🙄...
Responding like this makes me think you're just an asshole and not interested in the actual reason, so perhaps I've wasted my time with you. That's ok, because maybe there are other people out there around who can read this and then correct you in public for this shitty behavior
Well written. To add:
"Boy" coming from a white person to a black man is even more offensive, what with all the chattel slavery history and whatnot.
You know damn well this isn't the same in the slightest
He specifically mentioned "in the context of the US".
If he had been talking about any other English-speaking country, I'd say it would be somewhat irrelevant.
But it most certainly isn't when talking about the US, especially southern US.
And now you're insulting me for no reason.. well done white knight, get lost I did nothing to you or anyone here
Oh, you ARE an asshole on purpose. This all makes much more sense
Read your responses and read mine. Who's who? You keep insulting me for no reason, your "reason" is that i used the word girl, in a general, correct context... You see how ridiculous are you acting or not?
Is it really that shocking that a woman wouldn't want to be called girl or child? Sure, boy is still used. But in your post you used man, not boy. I'd say an easy rule is if you'd use the word man in a sentence, don't use the word girl.
It's not shocking that a woman wouldn't want to be called a girl. It's shocking that this particular woman claims to speak for all womankind. Fuck that noise, I know plenty of women who say "girls" and "boys" to refer to females and males of all ages.
Woman, not girl. I'm an adult and expect to be treated as such.
Interesting, cuz I'm interpreting that first sentence to mean how she'd like to be referred to, due to the second sentence referring to herself. Also note the singular "woman" and "girl", not plural "women" and "girls". Based on that it's pretty clear she's referring to an individual and not all womankind.
Am I missing something where she claims to speak for all womankind?
No, you're right, I was looking at another comment and thought it was by the same person.
I though I was going crazy here, thank you sir
Both are synonyms
Idk, imagine being called a child, boy, preteen, teenager, or young adult when you're in your late 20s or older.
Hearing your friends say "the boys" or women hearing "the girls" is endearments between friends, not strangers.
I really... REALLY, disagree, as long as you don't have bad intentions it's all good
as long as you don't have bad intentions it's all good
Generally speaking, this is a problematic way of justifying your actions.
It's all good if you have no bad intentions as long as you apologize when called out.
Good intentions do not give you a free pass, however they do help others understand where you're coming from if you bring them up when apologizing.
"My bad, I didn't know about that, growing up it was always okay to do XYZ"
"Sorry I made it more stressful for you, I thought I was helping"
hits very different from
"This is ridiculous, I had good intentions and you're still upset 🙄"
In fact, if you say the latter you're saying you have good intentions, but how good are those intentions if you refuse to help accommodate more?
Some understanding and clear communication will do a lot to smooth the axles of the world.
Yes. Adult females do not want to be infantilized to be called "girls". You don't have to understand it to be a decent human being, you just have to respect it.
Maybe do some reading about women's liberation if you want to understand.
Speak for yourself lol
Women are not a monolith
No. This is ridiculous, I don't see anything bad about either gender. I'm done with this
Some good ones have already been covered, so I'll add that, if I were to break down crying, other women would come over to ask if I'm okay etc. (I've held a complete stranger while she sobbed in the middle of a store, after she lost everything in a fire) unfortunately men still face a very weird gender bias that society in general still believes - you never show your emotions.
Not only do I feel like it's a terrible idea to show that weakness, but if I actually do it everyone around me will reinforce why I shouldn't.
Views really need to change. We're all human and crying is a normal human response! Sucks you're surrounded by people who feel that way 😕 it's not a weakness at all 🤍
Views do gotta change, but it's not like crying isn't showing a weakness. It is showing weakness. The problem is life is a competitive environment where you're not allowed to compete in any way other than financially where you're at the same disadvantage as a gambler in a casino.
It really isn't. Having emotions is not weak. Pretending like you don't is weak. Expressing the emotions you have, processing them, letting them move through you, and moving on productively is not weak, it is strong. Shoving them down and the having them come out in other nonconstructive ways is not strong, it is avoidant. Allowing yourself to have emotions despite the judgement of others does not make you vulnerable, it means you are healthy and self-assured enough to support yourself emotionally.
Anything I do because I have to rather than because I want to is a weakness. A need is a weakness. It's a vector of attack that I've gotta defend. Crying isn't something I want to do, but is compulsive.
It's not a weakness at all, but you seem determined to believe it is. Having healthy coping mechanisms isn't weak, bring able to process your emotions rather than pushing them aside is healthy and indicates maturity, not vulnerability.
Crying in front of a woman has got me dumped a few times, like next-day dumped.
Wow that's really shitty, I'm sorry that happened to you. I agree with @lady_maria@lemmy.world's comment, it's a very attractive trait for a man to express emotions in a healthy way.
I'm sorry. That's so shitty. I really don't get women who are like that. The ability to express emotion (in a healthy way) is one of the most attractive traits one can have, imo.
My AMAB (and non-binary, though they didnt realize that until like 9 years into our relationship) partner has cried in front of me COUNTLESS times. Because they're a fucking human being who has feelings. It's really not hard to understand if you take even just one moment to empathize.
This seems to depend on age and social circle. I'm very proud of my son's group of friends. They're considerably more emotionally supportive of each other than me and my friends ever were.
I agree, kids especially are far more empathetic and I'm glad to see it. The kids are alright! 🎶
The kids are alright
In some ways. Not so much in other ways.
Oh hey I'm AFAB but more or less NB at this point and let my gender presentation flux with both people's perceptions and whatever seems to be working best in the moment, especially career-wise so I actually have a LOT of thoughts on this. A looot of this discusses societal stereotypes on gender, so while I think it's shitty, the fact that a lot of people (wrongly) perceive trans people as their birth sex is of relevance to my perspective on this discussion. So, trigger warning: prejudice / transphobia.
Background:
I'm AFAB so most of my upbringing was femme oriented
I also come from an autism / ADHD HEAVY family so I still missed some of the social aspects of gendered upbringing
my parents WERE fundies however, so my attempts at more feminine presentations (makeup, heels, etc) resulted in a lot of sex-shaming from my parents, but there was also a looot of pro-birther nonsense and everything about pregnancy just freaks me out. There's probably a looot to unpack there as to how I wound up nonbinary, but ultimately I am what I am now, so it is what it is.
I spent the first few years of my career working on a psych unit for criminally insane men so the formative years of my young adulthood were spent learning how to speak from my chest and not look like a target
my current presentation is that sort of "no gendered features" / look like a clean shaven young man / lesbian (vs the beard AND boobs / "aaaall the gendered features" look). The only surgery I've had is my tits chopped off + tubes out. So I don't look ooobviously trans, but a lot of people also can't really tell what genitals I have at a glance which some people find ...distressing. for some reason.
I'm also white which I think lets me "get away with more" than others.
Thoughts:
I usually use the women's bathroom. Sometimes I bring a she-wee to work but all the unit bathrooms are singles so it's more just because I work with animals (male and female) who don't know how to put the seat up when they pee standing / squatting. This is mostly because whether it's reality or trauma based (see above work history) I don't trust most men around me with my pants off vs women will be socially awful but I likely won't have to come to blows over it. I do get some weird looks though, and some have stopped me, but then they just get this really confused / uncomfortable expression and ultimately leave me alone. But as far as your question goes, I do think I would get less backlash as a AFAB going into the men's room than an AMAB gets doing the reverse, so there's definitely an aspect of my vagina being inherently less threatening in vulnerable contexts... somehow?
sexually, I can be a top or a bottom (penatrator OR penatratee) and pussy vs bussy doesn't matter too much to me other than that fitting things in the backdoor takes a lot more prep work (but I'll talk more further down about how that flexibility is convenient for me personally). As far as gender relations go, I feel like I get more "girl power" brownie points for strapping on and pegging my male partner vs how men who receive anal penetration are perceived despite the fact that I'm essentially letting him do almost the exact same when he fucks my ass. I even typically use a "strapless" strapon (they still realistically need a harness to stay in) so I am actually being physically stimulated by the act, it's not even (necessarily) a dominance thing.
work / patient care: I work high-acuity psych so every patient has to have their skin checked for injuries and contraband (particularly weapons). I usually count as female for the purposes of keeping things same-sex. As far as your specific question though, it's also usually fine for me to count as female when searching men, even if the other person is also a woman. I usually try to have a male staff member with me as well, but nursing is pretty female dominated and I've noticed both in terms of patient comfort and working policy, two women searching a man is NOT as frowned upon as two men searching a woman. Do with that what you will. Same also goes for care / cleaning of genitals / breasts when patients require that.
In terms of responding to violent patients: it depends and I'll change my demeanor as needed. If a patient seems like they'll respect a man more I'll stand taller, drop the pitch of my voice / speak from the chest, and be more directive. If I think they'll respond better to me being more gentle / nurturing I'll do that (although I'm not as good at it) but again as far as your question goes, I don't think an AMAB person would be trusted the same way were they witnessed going back and forth like that.
That said, this raises the most important advantage to looking / acting masc - the high violence patients who respond better to gentleness are fairly few and far between. Patients who perceive me as more masculine are far, FAR more likely to cooperate with me being directive when I need to be. It's also in most cases not a fear thing in that they perceive me as stronger / more powerful, it's that they perceive me as more equal and worth listening to. I've had (usually boomer age) dementia patients in particular who gave every female nurse before me absolute hell for every single part of their treatment plan including the stuff the nurse has 0 control over but just went along with me saying the exact same things, then halfway through the shift they tell my coworker that "oh yes that nice young man has been so helpful!" It happens a lot actually, and I have a muuuch easier time with the sexist patients than most of my female coworkers. I recently did have one patient with homosexuality related delusions who targeted me a little, but that's pretty rare (they commented on him mostly going after men in report last night and I was like "hey he came after me the other night!" and one of my coworkers actually turned to me and was like "I don't think that counts as him targeting a woman...")
I guess my ultimate statement on it is thus: my particular combination of transness (including my race) is highly favorable considering, and I've heard that's often true for transmascs which I think is highly reflective of societal prejudices based on birth sex. I still get the weird looks and called mean names, but I'm sitting in exactly the least taboo combination where most people can assuage their prejudices by categorizing me as a "tomboy." People also often assume I'm a lesbian which is a little less favorable, but much more favorable than being trans (which is closer to the truth, I'm surgically confirmed and actually tend to prefer men).
I've actually arguably been able to use my gender presentation to avoid violence in many cases, which almost universally cannot be said for transwomen or AMAB NBs or men or any other AMABs who find themselves with any kind of femme aspects in their gender presentation. I'm also fortunate that the dysphoria I did have tended towards removing gendered aspects vs adding them because that also gets a lot of backlash.
I'm also almost entirely uniquely fortunate in that I don't have any dysphoria that causes me inherent distress based on how others perceive me or how I'm personally acting outwardly. That makes my ambivalence an asset almost, since I can just do whatever seems to make any given situation go smoothest, and I don't experience any emotional distress from doing so. I've noticed that lack of omnipresent dysphoria is almost unheard of in trans communities, especially for someone who got surgery (to the extent that I'm often actively unwelcome for expressing my unusual combination of lived experiences; I've actually felt far less welcome in trans spaces than pretty much anywhere else; and that includes on lemmy, a lot of my comments like this get removed with transphobia cited as the reason).
Anyway that's my garbled post 12-hour-night-shift stream of consciousness that I wrote and re-wrote a couple times on the bus ride home. Hope it was interesting but imma tap out and go nap before I have to go back tonight.
That's a fascinating write up, thank you for sharing! I don't think we hear about transmasc or transnb (?) nearly as often as transfem for exactly the stupid social stuff you mentioned.
I'd never considered this before, but the flexiblity that you get from ambivalence is almost like a social superpower - that's really cool!
In a way it is. Im moderately muscular and I present masc, I don't like to most of the time but it keeps assholes in their place. I wish I didn't need to do it. Then when I present more feminine it's like a completely different social reality.
Thank you for sharing all this! This has been one of the most interesting posts I've come across in a long time.
Nobody cares.
I LOVE comments like this from people who clearly cared enough about what I said to interact with my comment TWICE in two different ways (downvote PLUS comment) JUST to try to convince me they don't care, and right below another commenter who has emphatically expressed the opposite. It's fascinating both in the sense that they might actually internally believe it AND that they're deluded enough to think I might as well.
hey, amab masc nb person here, i appreciated your write up, thought it was interesting, and cared.
I care
No, we do care. What we don't care for is the opinion of a fucking stupid bigot like you. Please do us all a favor and leave the topic entirely.
Ask for help. I have a sketchy knee that gives out sometimes and i need to have one hand on the stair rail just in case. If I'm carrying something that requires two hands at work, I have no problem asking someone to grab the other side of it on the stairs. My husband would not ask for help unless it was something really heavy. He would put himself at risk to avoid admitting he needed help - it'll be fine. Well sure, it's always fine, until it's not.
He would put himself at risk to avoid admitting he needed help
Are you sure he just doesn't feel bad about potentially bothering someone (as I do)?
Little column A, little column B for me.
Bit of both I'm sure.
Or maybe he has some antiquated masculinity ideas in his head that are just plain silly and corrosive.
Oh yeah, he's a door holder, grocery carrier.
Sometimes we men don't ask for help simply because we want to see if we can do it ourselves. It's a test.
I often have work at my camp that makes me think it would be smarter or safer to wait until I can get help. Then I think, nah, you can figure this out. That often leads to novel solutions.
And somehow when my ex asked for help, I’ve spent weekends at her house carrying heavy stuff, assembling furniture and fixing stuff. Crap, I need to set boundaries, don’t I?
Have any introverted traits. It's okay for a man to be quiet or get hyper focused on a task. That can be either taken as he's creepy or the strong/silent type. But if a woman does this then she's labeled as a cold uncaring bitch. Sometimes I just want to get through a task without taking 20 minutes emotionally propping someone else up as expected.
I don't think you read the post correctly
So you are asking the ladies what they can do that a man can't? Fair enough. Other than the few answers you've already gotten about typical "girly" things like wearing makeup, dresses, and watching children l personally can't think of others that would apply to me directly. Truth is I feel bad that everyone can't dress or behave as is comfortable for them. There are guys who want to be able to wear makeup/dresses or be recognized for being real parents. And I would love to be able to be taken seriously when I speak or scratch my crotch in public. I too am interested in the answers here because being a woman doesn't get you too many "benefits" in society that aren't two-faced and dinegrating.
One time I was in these girls' dorm after a party and one of them was really focusing on her homework and jamming to some nice tunes. It was such a good vibe that I was apparently just kinda staring at her for like 15 minutes and she thought it was creepy. Now lofi girl is a thing, but it's not quite as good as the real thing.
In girlmode I can compliment women on their attire, hair styling, accessories, etc and it's not taken as a declaration of sexual arousal.
It's all in the tone and body language. I'm a middle aged man and I do this occasionally when someone looks really cool. I've never received any indication that they think I'm flirting with them, which I'm not.
As a dude I still do throw out the compliment - I just make sure to say it as I leave so it's clear there are no strings attached. "I really like what you did with your shoes - have a good one!"
As a guy I feel like I typically don't get non-flirty compliments from gals, and I understand that it's probably because there's the worry of misunderstanding intent.
That said, one time a few years ago a gal mentioned she liked my boots as she walked past and I'm still riding that high, lol. If it helps make people happier I'm not going to shy away from complimenting them :)
I'm a guy and I'm in a very customer facing line of work and I don't have that issue at all.
As others have said, maybe it's an age thing (I'm middle aged) or maybe it's a tone thing. If I'm complimenting them, it's usually on something specific; "Oh hey, those are really cool glasses" or "I love what you've done with your hair.", etc...
It's never "You've got pretty hair, lady." or "Gosh yer' beautiful."
The line between platonic comment and creepy sex weirdo (in my mind) is if you're complimenting them on something they actively did that you think is cool (hairstyle, choice of glasses, etc...) it's fine. Complimenting them on features that they have no control over, like saying "Hey, I just wanted to, completely randomly tell you how attractive you are" is creepy.
I lived the first part of my life pretending to be a man, and then I wised up. I'll just name my most recent moment of acknowledging that particular distinction in society.
If a pair of suburban mothers saw a car pull into a nearby space, and watch a man get out of the car leaving the door mostly ajar and walk around to the passenger side of the car, grab a small grocery sack, and walk it to the nearest trash can and back... they might say something or keep an eye on him. But if he absentmindedly were to have also left the radio on loud enough for you to know he was listening to the building up of a particularly spice scene of a romance audiobook and ...... there would be some discomfort.
But if they saw a woman in the same scenario, who only made it about halfway to the trash can before realizing, then make eye contact as they ran to turn it off embarassed... well they just giggled and asked what author that was.
Putting on makeup in public; specifically thought of refreshing lipstick at the table in a restaurant while waiting for the check.
Ok, that's pretty funny to imagine the potential reactions if I (cis male) or any of my manlier friends did that. Good answer!
Follow up question: how do you feel about the thought of not wearing makeup?
I can (and do) cosplay as characters of both genders at times. I say this because I noticed that while we can cosplay as male characters, a guy cosplaying as a female character automatically has connotations of non-binarism for some reason.
Shoplifting
Hope there's enough people to answer...
To make this a more balanced "poll" I'll do another post for the guys too later on.
I’m here and happy to answer but I honestly can’t think of anything! Do you have any examples of types of things you’re looking for?
A few answers so far:
If I cry in public people will ask if I'm okay
I can ask for help with heavy/awkward things
I can just hand a meat cleaver to my friend in a public library and no one will be freaked out
Women USUALLY have less problems showing vulnerable emotions like crying, people, even sometimes strangers will ask her if everything's fine... Boys on the other hand can't show weakness, especially adults. You're a failure or less of a man if you cry and you need to keep it all inside. If you're a family man it's even worse, you're usually the rock of the family.
Right, and that leads to issues with men seeking help. Men don’t get needed therapy at the same rate, and our suicide rates are way higher. So I guess one can answer your original question with: women can get help without as much social stigma.
Note to anyone reading: It’s not weak to see a physical therapist, so it’s not weak to see a mental one. You see a therapist to be strong, regardless of the which part of your body (muscles or brain) you’re training. You also don’t need to be having an issue in order to get therapy. Sometimes it’s just nice to talk through everyday things, and learn ways to cope with small things.
My husband sharpened a friend of mine’s meat cleaver for her. I knew I’d be seeing her at the library later, so I folded it inside cardboard and put it in a reusable shopping bag for her. At no point did I worry about anyone stopping me, and if they had, I would have expected them to believe me about what happened.
Everything went according to plan and I wouldn’t have thought anything of it, if my husband hadn’t been so surprised that I gave her the knife in public.
It never occurred to me to feel repressed because I can't walk around with a meat cleaver, but now it's on my mind.
Where do you live where this could be problematic?!
Mostly things that fall under the category of women not being able to be a threat/dangerous. Especially white women, which im usually read as.
This includes everything from talking to children in public to actual minor crimes like shoplifting.
Funnily enough, as a kid I always associated shoplifting with women stealing cosmetics and once saw a woman run past me with a security guard chasing after her. It's one of the only crimes I do associate primarily with women but only because of circumstance. Lol
This is why Israeli spies are mostly women.... It's super easy for them to gain trust and get away with things. Just an "oops silly mistake" and a smile gets you out of trouble. :)
Woman, not girl. I'm an adult and expect to be treated as such.
I feel no pressure to respond to aggression with physical violence. I recently sat through two friends (men) talking about how they feel too old to fight but if a strange guy were to roll up to them under certain conditions, they would have "no choice" but to physically fight them. I have never felt the need to physically fight a woman who disagreed with me. I would consider it a win and a good reflection on me if I could deescalate or remove myself from the situation.
Most other things I can think of are a double edged sword. Like being seen as a "girl" instead of a fully functioning, self-sufficient woman is usually a negative, but I can twist it in my favor to avoid things sometimes. I see other people commenting about women being able to interact with children without being seen as a potential pedophile, but that only comes because society expects women to do all the child-carrying.
I'm a guy and I've never felt the need to fight either. I've had women disappointed that I wouldn't fight someone for them, but they might have a weapon, and they almost certainly have friends and could come back later! I don't see a world where it's worth the risk for me to fight someone other than immediate self defense and even that is usually avoidable. (Every time, so far)
Oh and miss me with puffing myself up "what! You got beef??" -type nonsense. I refuse to be a dog barking on a chain just for some stupid social standing stuff.
The only times I'm worried about a fight is if I'm somewhere and someone with a mental illness might start something. Like the other day on the train someone was yelling very loudly to the car in general and being aggressive to people.
I wanted to do anything but fight, but I was mentally prepping in case I had to protect my step daughter. I was so relieved when he eventually went to a different car. I was even thinking of getting off and waiting for the next train.
That's something that I've seen happen before. Also I always avoid older teens that think they're hot shit and invincible.
Hey everyone! I'm an adult too! You can refer to me as 'his lordliness' and I expect to be treated as such.
There are certain scenarios where it's not an urge to fight, it's a necessity. Be a victim, or fight. It sounds like your friends were commenting on that type of scenario. As a woman you've probably never considered fighting an option in those scenarios, which is why you've never thought about it.
Really... Being called girl is offensive now 🙄...
I don't know you, why should I know that you want to be called a woman? And adult, even mature men are called "boys" even between them. Again, I don't understand you first statement.
Hi, man here. I obviously can't speak for women, but I can answer your question from my perspective.
"Girl" is a term used for young, inexperienced, non-adult female humans. When you call an adult woman a girl, you imply that she, her thoughts, and opinions are juvenile, and therefore are not to be taken as seriously as those of an adult of equal standing among other adults. It's called "infantilizing" and is disrespectful to that women, and realistically to all women.
For a moment, imagine you're with another man you don't know and when you say something, he contradicts you and begins to address you as "boy" or "son" in his response. His intent is to diminish you as a person and make you feel small, inferior or less a man or expert as him.
Now, I don't know what country you come from or if English is your first language; this cultural aspect can apply to other English speaking countries, but specifically I'm talking about the US. One could certainly be forgiven for speaking English as a second language or not being from the US and not knowing this specific thing. I hope this helps.
One last edit, or this is going to bother me:
Responding like this makes me think you're just an asshole and not interested in the actual reason, so perhaps I've wasted my time with you. That's ok, because maybe there are other people out there around who can read this and then correct you in public for this shitty behavior
Well written. To add: "Boy" coming from a white person to a black man is even more offensive, what with all the chattel slavery history and whatnot.
You know damn well this isn't the same in the slightest
He specifically mentioned "in the context of the US".
If he had been talking about any other English-speaking country, I'd say it would be somewhat irrelevant.
But it most certainly isn't when talking about the US, especially southern US.
And now you're insulting me for no reason.. well done white knight, get lost I did nothing to you or anyone here
Oh, you ARE an asshole on purpose. This all makes much more sense
Read your responses and read mine. Who's who? You keep insulting me for no reason, your "reason" is that i used the word girl, in a general, correct context... You see how ridiculous are you acting or not?
Is it really that shocking that a woman wouldn't want to be called girl or child? Sure, boy is still used. But in your post you used man, not boy. I'd say an easy rule is if you'd use the word man in a sentence, don't use the word girl.
It's not shocking that a woman wouldn't want to be called a girl. It's shocking that this particular woman claims to speak for all womankind. Fuck that noise, I know plenty of women who say "girls" and "boys" to refer to females and males of all ages.
Interesting, cuz I'm interpreting that first sentence to mean how she'd like to be referred to, due to the second sentence referring to herself. Also note the singular "woman" and "girl", not plural "women" and "girls". Based on that it's pretty clear she's referring to an individual and not all womankind.
Am I missing something where she claims to speak for all womankind?
No, you're right, I was looking at another comment and thought it was by the same person.
I though I was going crazy here, thank you sir
Both are synonyms
Idk, imagine being called a child, boy, preteen, teenager, or young adult when you're in your late 20s or older.
Hearing your friends say "the boys" or women hearing "the girls" is endearments between friends, not strangers.
I really... REALLY, disagree, as long as you don't have bad intentions it's all good
Generally speaking, this is a problematic way of justifying your actions.
It's all good if you have no bad intentions as long as you apologize when called out.
Good intentions do not give you a free pass, however they do help others understand where you're coming from if you bring them up when apologizing.
"My bad, I didn't know about that, growing up it was always okay to do XYZ"
"Sorry I made it more stressful for you, I thought I was helping"
hits very different from
"This is ridiculous, I had good intentions and you're still upset 🙄"
In fact, if you say the latter you're saying you have good intentions, but how good are those intentions if you refuse to help accommodate more?
Some understanding and clear communication will do a lot to smooth the axles of the world.
Yes. Adult females do not want to be infantilized to be called "girls". You don't have to understand it to be a decent human being, you just have to respect it.
Maybe do some reading about women's liberation if you want to understand.
Speak for yourself lol
Women are not a monolith
No. This is ridiculous, I don't see anything bad about either gender. I'm done with this
Some good ones have already been covered, so I'll add that, if I were to break down crying, other women would come over to ask if I'm okay etc. (I've held a complete stranger while she sobbed in the middle of a store, after she lost everything in a fire) unfortunately men still face a very weird gender bias that society in general still believes - you never show your emotions.
Not only do I feel like it's a terrible idea to show that weakness, but if I actually do it everyone around me will reinforce why I shouldn't.
Views really need to change. We're all human and crying is a normal human response! Sucks you're surrounded by people who feel that way 😕 it's not a weakness at all 🤍
Views do gotta change, but it's not like crying isn't showing a weakness. It is showing weakness. The problem is life is a competitive environment where you're not allowed to compete in any way other than financially where you're at the same disadvantage as a gambler in a casino.
It really isn't. Having emotions is not weak. Pretending like you don't is weak. Expressing the emotions you have, processing them, letting them move through you, and moving on productively is not weak, it is strong. Shoving them down and the having them come out in other nonconstructive ways is not strong, it is avoidant. Allowing yourself to have emotions despite the judgement of others does not make you vulnerable, it means you are healthy and self-assured enough to support yourself emotionally.
Anything I do because I have to rather than because I want to is a weakness. A need is a weakness. It's a vector of attack that I've gotta defend. Crying isn't something I want to do, but is compulsive.
It's not a weakness at all, but you seem determined to believe it is. Having healthy coping mechanisms isn't weak, bring able to process your emotions rather than pushing them aside is healthy and indicates maturity, not vulnerability.
Crying in front of a woman has got me dumped a few times, like next-day dumped.
Wow that's really shitty, I'm sorry that happened to you. I agree with @lady_maria@lemmy.world's comment, it's a very attractive trait for a man to express emotions in a healthy way.
I'm sorry. That's so shitty. I really don't get women who are like that. The ability to express emotion (in a healthy way) is one of the most attractive traits one can have, imo.
My AMAB (and non-binary, though they didnt realize that until like 9 years into our relationship) partner has cried in front of me COUNTLESS times. Because they're a fucking human being who has feelings. It's really not hard to understand if you take even just one moment to empathize.
This seems to depend on age and social circle. I'm very proud of my son's group of friends. They're considerably more emotionally supportive of each other than me and my friends ever were.
I agree, kids especially are far more empathetic and I'm glad to see it. The kids are alright! 🎶
In some ways. Not so much in other ways.
Oh hey I'm AFAB but more or less NB at this point and let my gender presentation flux with both people's perceptions and whatever seems to be working best in the moment, especially career-wise so I actually have a LOT of thoughts on this. A looot of this discusses societal stereotypes on gender, so while I think it's shitty, the fact that a lot of people (wrongly) perceive trans people as their birth sex is of relevance to my perspective on this discussion. So, trigger warning: prejudice / transphobia.
Background:
I'm AFAB so most of my upbringing was femme oriented
I also come from an autism / ADHD HEAVY family so I still missed some of the social aspects of gendered upbringing
my parents WERE fundies however, so my attempts at more feminine presentations (makeup, heels, etc) resulted in a lot of sex-shaming from my parents, but there was also a looot of pro-birther nonsense and everything about pregnancy just freaks me out. There's probably a looot to unpack there as to how I wound up nonbinary, but ultimately I am what I am now, so it is what it is.
I spent the first few years of my career working on a psych unit for criminally insane men so the formative years of my young adulthood were spent learning how to speak from my chest and not look like a target
my current presentation is that sort of "no gendered features" / look like a clean shaven young man / lesbian (vs the beard AND boobs / "aaaall the gendered features" look). The only surgery I've had is my tits chopped off + tubes out. So I don't look ooobviously trans, but a lot of people also can't really tell what genitals I have at a glance which some people find ...distressing. for some reason.
I'm also white which I think lets me "get away with more" than others.
Thoughts:
I usually use the women's bathroom. Sometimes I bring a she-wee to work but all the unit bathrooms are singles so it's more just because I work with animals (male and female) who don't know how to put the seat up when they pee standing / squatting. This is mostly because whether it's reality or trauma based (see above work history) I don't trust most men around me with my pants off vs women will be socially awful but I likely won't have to come to blows over it. I do get some weird looks though, and some have stopped me, but then they just get this really confused / uncomfortable expression and ultimately leave me alone. But as far as your question goes, I do think I would get less backlash as a AFAB going into the men's room than an AMAB gets doing the reverse, so there's definitely an aspect of my vagina being inherently less threatening in vulnerable contexts... somehow?
sexually, I can be a top or a bottom (penatrator OR penatratee) and pussy vs bussy doesn't matter too much to me other than that fitting things in the backdoor takes a lot more prep work (but I'll talk more further down about how that flexibility is convenient for me personally). As far as gender relations go, I feel like I get more "girl power" brownie points for strapping on and pegging my male partner vs how men who receive anal penetration are perceived despite the fact that I'm essentially letting him do almost the exact same when he fucks my ass. I even typically use a "strapless" strapon (they still realistically need a harness to stay in) so I am actually being physically stimulated by the act, it's not even (necessarily) a dominance thing.
work / patient care: I work high-acuity psych so every patient has to have their skin checked for injuries and contraband (particularly weapons). I usually count as female for the purposes of keeping things same-sex. As far as your specific question though, it's also usually fine for me to count as female when searching men, even if the other person is also a woman. I usually try to have a male staff member with me as well, but nursing is pretty female dominated and I've noticed both in terms of patient comfort and working policy, two women searching a man is NOT as frowned upon as two men searching a woman. Do with that what you will. Same also goes for care / cleaning of genitals / breasts when patients require that.
In terms of responding to violent patients: it depends and I'll change my demeanor as needed. If a patient seems like they'll respect a man more I'll stand taller, drop the pitch of my voice / speak from the chest, and be more directive. If I think they'll respond better to me being more gentle / nurturing I'll do that (although I'm not as good at it) but again as far as your question goes, I don't think an AMAB person would be trusted the same way were they witnessed going back and forth like that.
That said, this raises the most important advantage to looking / acting masc - the high violence patients who respond better to gentleness are fairly few and far between. Patients who perceive me as more masculine are far, FAR more likely to cooperate with me being directive when I need to be. It's also in most cases not a fear thing in that they perceive me as stronger / more powerful, it's that they perceive me as more equal and worth listening to. I've had (usually boomer age) dementia patients in particular who gave every female nurse before me absolute hell for every single part of their treatment plan including the stuff the nurse has 0 control over but just went along with me saying the exact same things, then halfway through the shift they tell my coworker that "oh yes that nice young man has been so helpful!" It happens a lot actually, and I have a muuuch easier time with the sexist patients than most of my female coworkers. I recently did have one patient with homosexuality related delusions who targeted me a little, but that's pretty rare (they commented on him mostly going after men in report last night and I was like "hey he came after me the other night!" and one of my coworkers actually turned to me and was like "I don't think that counts as him targeting a woman...")
I guess my ultimate statement on it is thus: my particular combination of transness (including my race) is highly favorable considering, and I've heard that's often true for transmascs which I think is highly reflective of societal prejudices based on birth sex. I still get the weird looks and called mean names, but I'm sitting in exactly the least taboo combination where most people can assuage their prejudices by categorizing me as a "tomboy." People also often assume I'm a lesbian which is a little less favorable, but much more favorable than being trans (which is closer to the truth, I'm surgically confirmed and actually tend to prefer men).
I've actually arguably been able to use my gender presentation to avoid violence in many cases, which almost universally cannot be said for transwomen or AMAB NBs or men or any other AMABs who find themselves with any kind of femme aspects in their gender presentation. I'm also fortunate that the dysphoria I did have tended towards removing gendered aspects vs adding them because that also gets a lot of backlash.
I'm also almost entirely uniquely fortunate in that I don't have any dysphoria that causes me inherent distress based on how others perceive me or how I'm personally acting outwardly. That makes my ambivalence an asset almost, since I can just do whatever seems to make any given situation go smoothest, and I don't experience any emotional distress from doing so. I've noticed that lack of omnipresent dysphoria is almost unheard of in trans communities, especially for someone who got surgery (to the extent that I'm often actively unwelcome for expressing my unusual combination of lived experiences; I've actually felt far less welcome in trans spaces than pretty much anywhere else; and that includes on lemmy, a lot of my comments like this get removed with transphobia cited as the reason).
Anyway that's my garbled post 12-hour-night-shift stream of consciousness that I wrote and re-wrote a couple times on the bus ride home. Hope it was interesting but imma tap out and go nap before I have to go back tonight.
That's a fascinating write up, thank you for sharing! I don't think we hear about transmasc or transnb (?) nearly as often as transfem for exactly the stupid social stuff you mentioned.
I'd never considered this before, but the flexiblity that you get from ambivalence is almost like a social superpower - that's really cool!
In a way it is. Im moderately muscular and I present masc, I don't like to most of the time but it keeps assholes in their place. I wish I didn't need to do it. Then when I present more feminine it's like a completely different social reality.
Thank you for sharing all this! This has been one of the most interesting posts I've come across in a long time.
Nobody cares.
I LOVE comments like this from people who clearly cared enough about what I said to interact with my comment TWICE in two different ways (downvote PLUS comment) JUST to try to convince me they don't care, and right below another commenter who has emphatically expressed the opposite. It's fascinating both in the sense that they might actually internally believe it AND that they're deluded enough to think I might as well.
hey, amab masc nb person here, i appreciated your write up, thought it was interesting, and cared.
I care
No, we do care. What we don't care for is the opinion of a fucking stupid bigot like you. Please do us all a favor and leave the topic entirely.
Ask for help. I have a sketchy knee that gives out sometimes and i need to have one hand on the stair rail just in case. If I'm carrying something that requires two hands at work, I have no problem asking someone to grab the other side of it on the stairs. My husband would not ask for help unless it was something really heavy. He would put himself at risk to avoid admitting he needed help - it'll be fine. Well sure, it's always fine, until it's not.
Are you sure he just doesn't feel bad about potentially bothering someone (as I do)?
Little column A, little column B for me.
Bit of both I'm sure.
Or maybe he has some antiquated masculinity ideas in his head that are just plain silly and corrosive.
Oh yeah, he's a door holder, grocery carrier.
Sometimes we men don't ask for help simply because we want to see if we can do it ourselves. It's a test.
I often have work at my camp that makes me think it would be smarter or safer to wait until I can get help. Then I think, nah, you can figure this out. That often leads to novel solutions.
And somehow when my ex asked for help, I’ve spent weekends at her house carrying heavy stuff, assembling furniture and fixing stuff. Crap, I need to set boundaries, don’t I?
Have any introverted traits. It's okay for a man to be quiet or get hyper focused on a task. That can be either taken as he's creepy or the strong/silent type. But if a woman does this then she's labeled as a cold uncaring bitch. Sometimes I just want to get through a task without taking 20 minutes emotionally propping someone else up as expected.
I don't think you read the post correctly
So you are asking the ladies what they can do that a man can't? Fair enough. Other than the few answers you've already gotten about typical "girly" things like wearing makeup, dresses, and watching children l personally can't think of others that would apply to me directly. Truth is I feel bad that everyone can't dress or behave as is comfortable for them. There are guys who want to be able to wear makeup/dresses or be recognized for being real parents. And I would love to be able to be taken seriously when I speak or scratch my crotch in public. I too am interested in the answers here because being a woman doesn't get you too many "benefits" in society that aren't two-faced and dinegrating.
Yeah OP was asking precisely the opposite.
One time I was in these girls' dorm after a party and one of them was really focusing on her homework and jamming to some nice tunes. It was such a good vibe that I was apparently just kinda staring at her for like 15 minutes and she thought it was creepy. Now lofi girl is a thing, but it's not quite as good as the real thing.
In girlmode I can compliment women on their attire, hair styling, accessories, etc and it's not taken as a declaration of sexual arousal.
It's all in the tone and body language. I'm a middle aged man and I do this occasionally when someone looks really cool. I've never received any indication that they think I'm flirting with them, which I'm not.
As a dude I still do throw out the compliment - I just make sure to say it as I leave so it's clear there are no strings attached. "I really like what you did with your shoes - have a good one!"
As a guy I feel like I typically don't get non-flirty compliments from gals, and I understand that it's probably because there's the worry of misunderstanding intent.
That said, one time a few years ago a gal mentioned she liked my boots as she walked past and I'm still riding that high, lol. If it helps make people happier I'm not going to shy away from complimenting them :)
I'm a guy and I'm in a very customer facing line of work and I don't have that issue at all.
As others have said, maybe it's an age thing (I'm middle aged) or maybe it's a tone thing. If I'm complimenting them, it's usually on something specific; "Oh hey, those are really cool glasses" or "I love what you've done with your hair.", etc...
It's never "You've got pretty hair, lady." or "Gosh yer' beautiful."
The line between platonic comment and creepy sex weirdo (in my mind) is if you're complimenting them on something they actively did that you think is cool (hairstyle, choice of glasses, etc...) it's fine. Complimenting them on features that they have no control over, like saying "Hey, I just wanted to, completely randomly tell you how attractive you are" is creepy.
I lived the first part of my life pretending to be a man, and then I wised up. I'll just name my most recent moment of acknowledging that particular distinction in society.
If a pair of suburban mothers saw a car pull into a nearby space, and watch a man get out of the car leaving the door mostly ajar and walk around to the passenger side of the car, grab a small grocery sack, and walk it to the nearest trash can and back... they might say something or keep an eye on him. But if he absentmindedly were to have also left the radio on loud enough for you to know he was listening to the building up of a particularly spice scene of a romance audiobook and ...... there would be some discomfort.
But if they saw a woman in the same scenario, who only made it about halfway to the trash can before realizing, then make eye contact as they ran to turn it off embarassed... well they just giggled and asked what author that was.
Putting on makeup in public; specifically thought of refreshing lipstick at the table in a restaurant while waiting for the check.
Ok, that's pretty funny to imagine the potential reactions if I (cis male) or any of my manlier friends did that. Good answer!
Follow up question: how do you feel about the thought of not wearing makeup?
I can (and do) cosplay as characters of both genders at times. I say this because I noticed that while we can cosplay as male characters, a guy cosplaying as a female character automatically has connotations of non-binarism for some reason.
Shoplifting
Hope there's enough people to answer...
To make this a more balanced "poll" I'll do another post for the guys too later on.
I’m here and happy to answer but I honestly can’t think of anything! Do you have any examples of types of things you’re looking for?
A few answers so far:
If I cry in public people will ask if I'm okay
I can ask for help with heavy/awkward things
I can just hand a meat cleaver to my friend in a public library and no one will be freaked out
Women USUALLY have less problems showing vulnerable emotions like crying, people, even sometimes strangers will ask her if everything's fine... Boys on the other hand can't show weakness, especially adults. You're a failure or less of a man if you cry and you need to keep it all inside. If you're a family man it's even worse, you're usually the rock of the family.
Right, and that leads to issues with men seeking help. Men don’t get needed therapy at the same rate, and our suicide rates are way higher. So I guess one can answer your original question with: women can get help without as much social stigma.
Note to anyone reading: It’s not weak to see a physical therapist, so it’s not weak to see a mental one. You see a therapist to be strong, regardless of the which part of your body (muscles or brain) you’re training. You also don’t need to be having an issue in order to get therapy. Sometimes it’s just nice to talk through everyday things, and learn ways to cope with small things.
Yup. Patriarchy is a bitch.