What do you think of framework and their methods?

Tibert@compuverse.uk to Technology@lemmy.world – 481 points – We are not sustainable
frame.work

We are not sustainable And neither is any other device maker. This industry is full of "feel good" messaging, but generates 50 million metric tons of e-waste each year. We believe the best way to reduce environmental impact is to create products that last longer, meaning fewer new ones need to be made. Instead of operating on feels, we operate on data and actions. With funding from Intel, we commissioned Fraunhofer IZM to do a detailed life cycle analysis (LCA) on Framework Laptop 13 to help us understand where we are today and where we can continue to improve. Check out our thoughts on reducing environmental impact and download the LCA report here...

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Overall, they seem to be doing the right things for long-term ownership and repairability. As new hardware manufacturers, they're going to have a couple issues, just like their rechargeable bios battery design, but they've handled them well.

I would like them to open source their schematics, but they have contractual obligations preventing them from doing so, so making the schematics open after signing an NDA is a fair middle ground, and more than any other company will do. So kudos for that

I personally own a framework, and worked with them to fix a charging issue, and they did all the right things, professional, no issues at all.

One small issue that people seem to have, is their unwillingness to talk about core boot or libre boot, but that's a small thing.

They are a startup, so you always have to question what revenue streams they're envisioning long-term.

They're my kind of crazy: I hope they succeed, at least I hope they start industry trend for repairability and long-term ownership.

It would be amazing if they succeeded. Would be nice to be able to grab the motherboard of your old laptop and recycle it into a home server type device, sell your display to someone that can easily use it for personal projects, etc.

If they do it right their old boards could be used for the kind of stuff people buy raspberry pi's for as well.

That is already being done right now.

You can fashion your old Mainboard into a home server. For example by using their case made in collaboration with I think CooperMaster but you can also 3D print it yourself.

The displays are just standard eDP connectors. So anyone could use that as well with a cheap board.

100% agreed. If they could come up with some GPL3 framework foundation, that open source to schematic designs, after I don't know 5 years. So the designs are older, but it's open, so that people can fashion all of their devices into completely reusable modules. I'd love that.

They're doing a reasonable job by open sourcing their interfaces, which is good.

One small issue that people seem to have, is their unwillingness to talk about core boot or libre boot, but that's a small thing.

It's a major issue for me - currently I'm keeping my old x230 alive, but eventually that'll have to be replaced.

I'm running it with heads, which allows me to do secure boot under my control. I don't really want to have my main notebook without that nowadays.

I don't like any of the current notebook keyboards, so it'll be a "build yourself" project anyway - and the framework mainboard would be nice as they keep the dimensions stable, even though I'm not a fan of some other hardware choices.

My impression of the GitHub discussion on core boot, was that it's on their backlog. But one of the bug submitters was very vocal, would a commitments, and basically got the developers to close the issue kind of emotionally.

I think it's something they want to do, long-term, but they're not actively working on it.

Out of curiosity what are the other hardware issues?

Out of curiosity what are the other hardware issues?

I'm generally not a friend of their USB-C expansion modules - which is mainly due to lots of experience trying to expand older notebooks with USB stuff. USB is not designed for devices to keep a state over suspends, so depending on what kind of hardware you plug in you get interesting results. This may be better with current spec (at least I hope they fixed some of that stuff when they worked on USB-C docking), but given how much I've seen fail I don't feel comfortable to fully rely on that.

I'd have preferred to have a few more mPCIe-slots (I think they just have one for the WLan module), and more storage slots (which I think they finally fixed with the latest mainboard version with two NVME slots). Also what they've done about the connection for the separate graphics card might solve my complaints about lack of mPCIe-slots.

If we not only look at the mainboard, but the complete notebook - I don't like the keyboard, the screen, the case in general, and the fixed battery - but unfortunately all those are bad on pretty much any notebook younger than 10 years.

I should add, no matter how much I agree with the company, I won't do pre-orders. I know framework is my kind of crazy, I can't encourage anybody to do a pre-order either.

I bought my framework from in stock series 13s.

There's too much risk tying up capital for months, plus you lose your credit card protections, when it's been over 30 days. If I buy an in stock unit, have it delivered, and it's terrible, worst case scenario I do a credit card charge back. I'd lose that capability if I do a pre-order 345 months out.

If you preorder, just 100 $/€ are taken from your credit card. The rest is booked shortly before the device gets shipped. So, your risk is 100$/€ if they went bankrupt before you get your device. I have seen worse, imho.

They seem to be heavily prioritizing reduce and reuse over recycle which is perfect. That’s what you’re supposed to do. Buy a few refillable glass jars and recycle them when they break instead of just tossing them in the recycling and buying new ones type deal.

I needed new laptop and wanted one from Framework but unfortunately they don't sell it in my country so I went with a macbook pro with the thinking that it will last me longer than anything else and that's at least somewhat more eco friendly since I don't need to buy a new one for the next 5 years at least, probably 10 since it's a mac

I’ve had my macbook for 6 years and it is still my favorite computer to use. I built my own pc and everything, but the mac still feels better. Ot could feel a little snappier opening programs, but it’s still a great machine

I get what you mean but that analogy doesn't make sense

But the new ones are more durable! ;)

I say we celebrate their successes! Don't let perfection be the enemy of progress; the fact that they're trying to do something about sustainability is far more than can be said for most laptop manufacturers, and the more the industry sees them succeed, the more it will follow suite.

They've even went beyond what they promised iirc rather than delivering the bare minimum

I bought a 1st gen Framework, making the bet they will still be around and have sell upgrades for my laptop 5+years from now when I need an upgrade. So far they are delivering on their promises and the price remains acceptable (even if high than the competition).

  • very satisfied about linux support
  • very satisfied about reperability, customizability
  • very satisfied with overall spec. and design
  • not so satisfied by battery management and autonomy

even if high than the competition

it's not even higher in some cases.

Was looking for a new work laptop a year or so ago, and compared a thinkpad with framework. Same exact hardware inside, and the price difference was 50ct. With the thinnkpad having poorer upgradability, soldered on ram and (imo) worse build quality.

It was the perfect way to test out a framework, and now I own one for personal use as well

  • not so satisfied by battery management and autonomy

What do you mean with autonomy?

Probably not native. In Italian we also say "autonomia" to indicate battery life or distance you can still cover with the fuel in your tank.

Yes this is what I mean. I though this was also use in english. Basically, how long you last with 1 charge.

Hopefully battery life will get much better with the next gen Intel CPUs (14th gen and later). Of course that means nothing for people who already have the current gen.

I mean, with Framework laptops, it does mean something since upgrading to a new cpu doesn't involve buying a whole new laptop.

They already fixed some HW issue related to that in the 2nd gen (intel 12th gen).

I got my Framework 13 in February 2022 and I love it. I'll end up getting the AMD mainboard when it becomes more widely available, then take my old mainboard and RAM, put them in an enclosure, and make that my new NAS. Then my current NAS, which is just a Raspberry Pi, I'll turn that into a PiHole.

I am super excited about case options (3D printed, or coolermaster) ! When I do need an upgrade in some years time, the old MB will definitly not go to wast !

I always found it very frustration to have some old laptop laying around, that still functions good, but there is nothing much to be done with it, or it involves a lot of tinkering and will never end up being a very elegant nor practical thing...

I've used old laptops as low power servers (hell, they have included battery backup that lasts way longer than my UPSes). Being able to put an old board and its components in a 1u rack server or 3d printed case is HUGE to me. Thats a huge selling point for framework for me.

I wish they did a System76 collab or something because I want to support both of those companies.

I've always wanted a form factor that's basically a thick tablet, but with laptop-level hardware inside. I can carry around a (mechanical) keyboard and a wireless mouse just fine. Have something to prop it up vertically and give it a power adapter, and that's all I need. Even the best laptop keyboards and touchpads kinda suck.

Not many companies would take a chance on a form factor like that, but an old Framework motherboard could make it work. I think there are some 3d printed projects on their forums that are pretty close to this already.

I am not in the market for a new laptop at the moment, but my next one is very likely to be a Framework. At least if they decide to add Nordic keyboard and support shipping to Denmark.

Yeah that’s my attitude as well. I have no need for a laptop at the moment. It’s a want, but I have bigger expenses to worry about at the moment. In a year or two when I feel like it’s time I’ll likely go with them.

Last I checked some months ago they haven't entered the EU market and don't have near term plans to :(

They also don't recommend importing as that kind of defeats the purpose seeing as you'll be unable to easily source parts or even get support, maintenance or warranty

I know. That is partly why I don't intend to buy one before they support the EU.

If I need a new laptop, I'll most likely get a Framework. Not only the ~upgradability~ repairability, but the upgradability is second to none.

The one complaint I have is that the Ethernet module sticks out of the device. Seems like an oversight to make them so thin so they can't fit an RJ-45 port. Maybe they'll develop a module with a little flap like seen on some thin laptops with an RJ-45 port.

I find it acceptable to use a usb-c dongle for ethernet, even though I admit it's not as good as a properly integrated port. Overall the Framework 13-inch isn't the best if you are looking for many I/O options. I own only 4 port-modules, buy even if I had more I don't see myself swapping them more often than twice a year.

It's certainly acceptable and more of a nitpick. I just find it super convenient to have Ethernet built-in. Not necessarily for desktop use (you'd probably use a USB-C/Thunderbolt dock with Ethernet anyways), but for activities like troubleshooting routers or other network devices. It's very handy when you can just take your laptop and plug it right in without having to think about any dongles or adapters or whatever.

You can of course have a permanent RJ-45 port in the Framework laptop, it's just not as aesthetically pleasing and the fact that it sticks out can cause issues with some sleeves or other cases.

I needed one and wanted one but unfortunately they don't sell it in my country so I went with a macbook pro with the thinking that it will last me longer than anything else and that's at least somewhat more eco friendly

Yea, back when I needed a laptop because my super old lenovo was on its death bed, it was when there was a chip shortage or whatever and System76 didn't have the laptop I wanted in stock and Framework didn't exist (i dont think? or it wasn't shipping anytime soon) so I went with the a m1 macair. This this is incredibly in terms of price/perf & power/perf. I get tons of battery time. It's insanely fast, doesn't get hot at all and the build quality is better than any laptop I've owned to date. I probably wont need another laptop for a couple more years at least and I've had this since 2020.

When I upgrade to something else, I'll probably hand this down to my wife or her mom tbh. So in terms of eco friendly, its going to get 6+ years of use most likely if not 10.

I purchased a 1st gen Framework in early 2022 because I strongly believe in the ethos of the company and even though I didn't really need a laptop, I wanted to support the company.

Overall I'm quite happy with the laptop, there are definitely a few things that weren't great on the 1st gen units, such as the speakers, hinges, and the battery life. Some of those I have since upgraded as they improved them in later years, and it now meets my needs pretty well.

Framework: We design our products to last, to reduce e-waste

Enthusiasts: buys their products even though they don't need new ones, just because they're cool, producing more e-waste in the process

/s

I think they're the go-to company if you want to get a laptop in 2023. I got my unit back in 2021 and used it every day since, and it has taken quite a beating. It went though several light impacts and one big drop but the only thing to show for it is a small dent on the back.

My only two complaints are

  • After a year, the USB-C cable supplied with the laptop started to split open. I don't know if this is only a defect in early batches but it's worth noting.
  • Suspend on Linux is an issue. Linux works great but it doesn't suspend properly. Putting in this command as root echo "deep" > /sys/power/mem_sleep which makes your system use deep sleep instead of s2idle which solved the issue but waking up from suspend is now 8-10 seconds instead of 2 seconds.

I expect these hardware issues and more to be fixed on newer boards and the framework 16 but I'll continue to use my 13 and upgrade to an AMD board and use my intel board to make a mini PC. There's really no reason to buy Dell, HP, or Lenovo anymore now that framework exist and has delivered on all their promises.

I got one of the first gen models, and I have been totally sold ever since. Yeah, there are laptops with more ports, but it's harder to find a laptop with a wider variety of ports.

I love that the laptop is customizable and totally serviceable. As someone who has been dismantling and fixing their own laptops for a long time, watching the industry get more and more unfriendly has been disheartening.

Framework is a breath of fresh air. Even if they fail eventually, I will still be happy to have given them my money because this is an incredible laptop. Excited to see the 16.

I'm going to get one for my next laptop.

This is the only reason I haven't bought one yet. I have no use/need for a new laptop, but really like the idea at the very least over... every other manufacturer really.

Being able to choose/swap out ports alone would be fantastic.

Same. I love my Thinkpad and absolutely will continue to buy them but I really like what framework is doing.

I think they need to hurry and offer it in more countries. Been seeing the "we don't sell in your country" message for too long now.

I've tested out a couple different framework laptops and they are hands down one of the best manufacturers on the market these days

From linux perspective which is better, Framework or System76?

I have been looking to upgrade my laptop (i5-8250U) with something decent. I don't game, so dont require heavy graphics that draws too much power.

For Linux support alone, System76 is better, because Framework's resolution is a bit awkward, whether it's 13" or 16".

System76 is a bit strange. Their laptops are more expensive than other windows brands, while offering Linux. I'm not sure if it's really worth going with them, as a lot of other laptops ca work with Linux. Tho maybe I missed something about their laptops.

Framework I think I saw some Poole saying it has some issues running Linux with some component incompatibilities. Tho you may want to do more research, maybe even opening some reddit threads and dodging useless comments.

I honestly dont mind paying a bit premium to System76 if they have good quality and better support for Linux.

I have grown tired of the cheap hinges that have been plaguing laptops.

Yeah... I'm not sure about the quality being really better than competition. Tho maybe Linux support may be better depending on what components different laptops use.

I'm 90% sure all of System76's offerings are rebadged Clevo laptops.

There's an explanation of the relationship floating somewhere online, but yeah. S76 works with Clevo to design their products, then does the software and firmware support in-house. Clevo will offer their own product reusing portions—i.e. the chassis—of the S76 model.

My experience with Linux on my Framework has been pretty good but admittedly not perfect. If you want an idea you can check out the Arch Wiki's Framework page. Personally I think the repairability and upgradability of Framework outweighs the marginal increased Linux support you get with System76 (assuming they have no issues), but Linux isn't as big a priority for Framework as it is for System76.

These laptops look extremely affordable and I like how modular they are. The next time I need to replace my laptop I'll probably go with Framework.

When i ordered mine, they didnt have a US version. So i ordered a German model, and a keyboard (the German Model was overstock and discounted). And just swapped the keyboard.

It took about 30 minutes and probably 100 screws but it was simple.

My laptop is 4 years old at this point. I spent $2400 on it before I wanted something future proof, and while it's still plenty fast with it's 10th gen Intel processor and 32gb ram, knowing that I could drop $500 and upgrade to the latest AMD or Intel chip makes me wish I could have held out another year and gotten the framework.

Given that we've more or less peaked in terms of non-gaming performance I probably won't be buying another laptop until this one dies but my next laptop will be a framework without question as well.

I like Framework and pre-ordered a F16 as soon as I heard pre-orders were open.

The number one problem of modern appliance is indeed longevity I'd say. The so called "planned obsolescence" is probably what mainly drives or consumption of electronics and, accordingly, our production of e-waste. But Framework might just be saying that for green washing purposes.

My only concern is that they might turn into the next Unfairphone. But for now, I'll remain cautiously optimistic about them.

What's wrong with fairphone?

I recall the fairphone 2 being touted as an open platform with support for ubuntu touch, phosh and more. There's not a word of that with the current lineup.

The new one launched with the privacy friendly /e/OS and initial PostmarketOS (Linux) support...

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Are components replacable, repairable and upgradable because that is a pretty major thing in extending the lifetime of a device

The entire laptop is user serviceable, including replacing the Motherboard/CPU with a newer model, or even switching between Intel and AMD now. New 16in model will have upgradable discrete GPU.

https://frame.work/marketplace

That's their whole deal. The computer is designed to be repairable by the end user as a first principle. It's easy to disassemble, easy to replace or swap components, and they have a store where you can buy replacement or upgrade parts.

I have toyed with the thought of framework laptops a few times. But the pricing is just too high. I rather buy used company laptops ~3 years afterwards and get way cheaper high quality laptop. Plus, buying used is pretty much always better than buying new in an environmental sense.

They don't have the specs that I want, so... Not for me.

I've never used one of their computers or even seen one in the flesh, but from what I've seen they look cool and I will consider them next time I need a new laptop. But for now I'll reduce e-waste by using my old Acer Chromebook with Linux until it kicks the bucket.

It’s a great idea and I’m very interested but this article is just an ad. There’s very little substance.

That's a fair observation, but it's not an article, it's the company blog talking about upcoming things. I think the most remarkable thing is they admit their approaches are not sustainable, even though they're trying to be green. And that's a healthy thing to admit.

Normally I'd be rolling my eyes but they could probably stand some free advertising.

I just wish they'd jump the pond already.

It's kinda funny how North America has the repairable laptop, while Europe has the repairable phone.

Well, somebody here made a repairable laptop. They seem to be having some trouble making traction. You guys will probably force the existing manufacturers make repairable laptops before these guys even become a well-known product.

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(Almost) Everything is greenwashing because ultimately that's what consumers want. They don't really care about making something more environmentally friendly, they simply want to feel better with false claims and splashy marketing.

The whole environmental angle that FW are taking seems OK, but if they are too expensive or don't make a good product or fall behind the competition, then it simply won't work. I just found out my old laptop shit the bed, so I would absolutely take a serious look at what FW offers.

One of the things I absolutely hate about their marketing material is this idea that you can buy a module that adds a X port or Y connector to the laptop. Just build those ports into the goddamn laptop from the get go. Every extra module you add, every extra seam on the chassis, every extra cable there is, is an extra failure point in thw product and for something that is mobile, that's not a great thing. I like the repairability angle they are pushing, but if all the extra modules introduce more failures then you won't have happy customers.

Having used the expansion modules on my framework. I'm kind of in love with them. They remove all cable stress from the motherboard. Because of the modularity, I can just plug in an external disk to boot off of, if I want to run Windows, or a special operating system, and pull the disc out seamlessly through the expansion port.

I didn't think I'd like them, but I really do. The modularity is undersold, day-to-day driving it's great. No complaints about them whatsoever.

I think one criticism that Louis Rossman has that I agree with is more ports. I get that the modularity makes it so you can swap things in and out easily but I wish I could have way more ports like my thinkpad.

I'll tell you what Framework's IO modules truly are: Dongles.

They plug into USB-C ports on the mainboard, just like the bundle of IO dongles a Mac user has to lug around. But in Framework's case, they're "inboard." They snap into the chassis of the Laptop to present the form factor of a built-in port. So unlike pigtail form factor dongles that stick out of the machine, you can leave them plugged in while the laptop is in your bag.

And because the module is supported by the chassis, that relieves the strain on the USB-C port itself, so if you drop the laptop with something plugged into a module, it might break the module but not the mainboard. Modules are cheaper and easier to replace than the mainboard.

I contacted them about putting the Sipeed Lichee Pi 4A RISC-V SoM in... but they seemed unenthusiastic...

Not everyone is riding the hyperbole in tech.