Scalpers Work With Hackers to Liberate Ticketmaster's ‘Non-Transferable’ Tickets
A lawsuit filed in California by concert giant AXS has revealed a legal and technological battle between ticket scalpers and platforms like Ticketmaster and AXS, in which scalpers have figured out how to extract “untransferable” tickets from their accounts by generating entry barcodes on parallel infrastructure that the scalpers control and which can then be sold and transferred to customers.
By reverse-engineering how Ticketmaster and AXS actually make their electronic tickets, scalpers have essentially figured out how to regenerate specific, genuine tickets that they have legally purchased from scratch onto infrastructure that they control. In doing so, they are removing the anti-scalping restrictions put on the tickets by Ticketmaster and AXS.
So Ticketmaster and AXS are suing to maintain their monopoly on scalping?
This is one of those fights where you just hope everyone involved loses. Beyond losing, I’d prefer they all fall into a bottomless pit, but I’m not sure that’s attainable.
I'd
buyscalp tickets to watch that.Nah, I want Ticketmaster specifically to loose. Fuck them.
Scalpers are a problem that transcend Ticketmaster. Heck, they transcend the world of event tickets. Scalpers are a pain in so many areas. Fuck them.
Let's hope for a long legal flight where Ticketmaster ends up getting broken up, but Ticketmaster drags the scalpers down with them in legal fees.
Jesus, is there any way both sides can lose? Because fuck ticket scalpers, but fuck Ticketmaster too.
I mean Ticketmaster basically are scalpers
Ticketmaster is worse than scalpers.
They are scalpers
I'd rather deal with scalpers than this monopolistic bullshit
You'd rather have 2 middle men for your ticket purchase?
I'd rather be able to sell my ticket if I can't go for at least face value. Ticketmaster sometime won't let you sell the ticket to another person, or only allows you to sell back to them at 1/10th the face value....just so they can resell it again. Didnt even mention all the convenience fees for all those trades too.
If I had a paper ticket, I could just sell it no problem
Going through a scalper means that the ticket supply is artificially decreased, which pumps up the price. Then you run the risk of your ticket not working when you turn up to the venue.
Not too different from ticketmaster at that point lol
Scalping increases the liquidity of tickets. This establishes a "market price" that can be higher or lower than the face value.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that at this point Ticketmaster might be one of the most hated company in America.
Eh....
Bank of America, Comcast, Wells Fargo, Amazon, Google...
Just to name a few.
Ticketmaster is in the top 25 for sure.
I miss old-school Consumerist and their annual Worst Company in America brackets.
Most of those have more indirect disgust. They still have some redeeming qualities for their users.
Ticketmaster is almost universally understood to be nothing other than a petty middle man extracting fees for no reason other than they can.
I used to work for Comcast and one time after they had won the "Worst Company in the World" contest two years in a row they sent out a company-wide email telling them to participate in the contest and vote for some other company. Everyone I knew there participated in the contest but we didn't follow the instructions exactly lol.
Yah. Pearl Jam spent years in limbo because they thought everyone would join the fight. But no big name artists ever did because no one wanted to rock the boat. During COVID ticketmaster / clear channel/liveNation/ iHeartRadio whatever have continued to consolidate. They own the tickets they own the resell websites they own most of the big venues they can demand merch sales at the venue. If you refuse they can remove you from playing their venues.
At this point it would take 10+ huge artists to final kill this beast. We are talking Taylor Swift / Beyonce big that actually have complete creative control. I don't even think most top artists have that. They would have to organize everything and they would probably lose union contracts for stage craft and audio, lights, transportation. Basically they would have to start their own ticket & touring companys that outdoor fields and sports areas? and would have to stick it out for years and convince a good majority to stop buying tickets from any place using Ticketmaster.
The big artists don’t fight this because they make more money under the status quo, and Ticketmaster takes all the heat and they can play victim while raking in the cash.
the Cure isn't exactly huge anymore but they did it. All it takes is the artist to have respect for their fans.
goth bands trying not to take w's challenge impossible
To them it's a feature, not a bug.
Fuck ticketmaster. Fuck scalpers also. But ticketmaster are also scalpers so fuck them twice.
Ticketmaster also own Stubhub and provides pre sale services to them before the gen pub gets to even see the tickets
https://youtu.be/q9xZznpVWXA
Ticket master (live nation) shouldn't exist IMO
And there are technical details from the reverse-engineering of Ticketmaster’s ticket format here. tl;dr: it’s two of the TOTP authentication codes you use for 2-factor authentication rolled into a barcode, along with some additional data.
This is equal parts informative and hilarious. Ticketmaster sucks.
The conclusion says it best:
I absolutely fucking hate Ticketmaster's way of doing this, because they require access to your phone. And they won't let me use my normal VPN, or anything that blocks them from having location access. I would rather drive to the goddamn venues--what are about 90 minutes from my home--and buy tickets in person, than to deal with Ticketmaster or AXS "security" measures that attempt to circumvent my security.
While you're forced to use ticketmaster you can still avoid installing their app via https://am.ticketmaster.com/
When I go to that right now, from my desktop, I get:
"Your Session Has Been Suspended
Something about your browsing behavior or network made us think you were a bot.
What can I do to resolve this?
Try again from a different device or a different location
Ensure you have enabled JavaScript in your web browser
Remove any third party browser plugins that may be running"
This is because I run all my traffic through a VPN, and Ticketmaster isn't able to harvest information from me that it wants. It expects me to allow them full access to who I am and where I am, rather than just giving me what I'm paying for.
Yes they're TOTP codes and Ticketmaster gives you the secret. You do in fact have the ticket.
Normally I LOATHE scalpers.
But for these guys I'm willing to make an exception.
I make that exception for all, I don't like scalping but I dislike the attack on the ownership right to resell even more.
Weird Situation to be in.. I kinda like breaking ticket masters bullshit, but also fuck scalpers. They are the reason you cant resell your tickets, cause they buy up huge blocks of tickets and exploit peoples intense desire to see a show by selling them for 2,4,8x or more for what they would have cost if the consumer could have bought them directly.
Also fuck ticket master too for exploiting their monopoly to turn 20 dollar tickets into 1000 dollar tickets
Its like watching two groups of awful people fight eachother, where the only good outcome is if they end up killing eachother.
Scalpers exploit a lack of supply, the same as ticket master. Normally the answer would be to increase supply but if being in person is important for concerts then perhaps bigger venues or multiple showings isn't feasible. A culture shift towards something like watch-parties, like football and other sports, may be the answer in the long-run.
Scalpers are a consequence of freedom and perhaps there are good reasons to limit that here but I see it happening in other fields where I think it shouldn't and wouldn't want to encourage it (i.e. hardware and software tied to an online account).
Which they create by bulk buying seats, to hold them hostage unless you are willing to pay extortionately inflated prices.
Scalpers are not heros, or good guys. They are people trying to exploit a situation to everyone elses detriment.
Still, fuck the scalpers, they did this to get more. I'm fine with the hackers as this fucks over Ticketmaster but also the fans
The original reporting by 404media is excellent in that it covers the background context, links to the actual PDF of the lawsuit, and reaches out to an outside expert to verify information presented in the lawsuit and learned from their research. It's a worthwhile read, although it's behind a paywall; archive.ph may be effective though.
For folks that just want to see the lawsuit and its probably-dodgy claims, the most recent First Amended Complaint is available through RECAP here, along with most of the other legal documents in the case. As for how RECAP can store copies of these documents, see this FAQ and consider donating to their cause.
Basically, AXS complains about nine things, generally around: copyright infringement, DMCA violations (ie hacking/reverse engineering), trademark counterfeiting and infringement, various unfair competition statutes, civil conspiracy, and breach of contract (re: terms of service).
I find the civil conspiracy claim to be a bit weird, since it would require proof that the various other ticket websites actually made contact with each other and agreed to do the other eight things that AXS is complaining about. Why would those other websites -- who are mutual competitors -- do that? Of course, this is just the complaint, so it's whatever AXS wants to claim under "information and belief", aka it's what they think happened, not necessarily with proof yet.
Pedantic to call it a “loginwall”/“emailwall”?
404’s reporting is so good, if anyone with that caliber of content made entering an email the standard I’d be okay with that. (I used an anonymous forwarding address, specific to them.) I think it’s worth the time setting up a forwarding address & setting filters as necessary to keep their emails out of your inbox if you can’t stand the thought, hope it helps their metrics.
... so they could be silenced by an NDA.
at this point in life I think I already saw all the bands I wanted in concert. I think I can afford to boycot these mfs and stick to local concerts that dont use that garbage company.
Every year we have a local indie music festival run by our city. It's free, and bands have their albums available for sale there. That's where I go for live music, it's way better than those mega bands anyway.
They got some "fuck you got mine" mentality now?
I don't buy anything on ticketmaster. I won't install their app.
I still see people I want to see. I just may have to travel to do so.
I guess that reverse engineering itself isn't illegal, but creating tickets without the real ticket seller's authorization seems plain fraud IMHO.
I won't count it as fruad unless they double sell it. It's only as far breaching the tos.
You bought the ticket. Selling it isn't fraud.
You're not creating tickets that weren't purchased. You're just transferring them without their permission.
So if I sell my "Dr." title to you, then that is OK in your jurisdiction?
Well, around here, it is different.
This is the dumbest analogy anyone has ever written.
Sheldon Cooper uses this phrase, too. Every time when he has been proven wrong.
are you seriously using a tv character analogy to defend your point???? buying a ticket doesn't require any intense academic background lmao
So ticketmasters tickets were so unsecured that some hackers were able to break the scheme? Hmm, maybe they should have employed a professional then...
ultimately it's the artists that allow their shows to be ticketed by these monstrous usurious companies who are at fault. if the artists refuse to work with tickemaster, ticketmaster would cease to exist. the problem with live shows is directly attributable to artists, their production companies and management, and greed. that's it.
A lot of venues require events to use ticketmaster so the artists often have no choice
the. artists. always. have. a. choice. in. everything. they. do. they. could. choose. not. to. play. the. venues. unless. the. venues. divest. themselves. from. using. ticketmaster.
it all comes down to what the artists allow, they're the talent people are paying for
And how will they earn a living? Record, radio, and streaming pays almost nothing. Live performance is how most make their living.
Going ticketmaster-less for a tour has been tried before by a huge name at the time Pearl Jam. This was almost 30 years ago now. It just wasn't viable playing the few venues that could accept ticketmaster-less shows.
Here's part of that history:
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/pearl-jam-taking-on-ticketmaster-67440/
It still makes me angry that the whole music industry left Pearl Jam out to dry on this. Had even half the artist touring joined in solidarity with Pearl Jam it would probably be a much better market for concert goers these days.
It wasn't only the music industry. The Department of Justice ruling kneecapped Pearl Jam's efforts of reform giving Ticketmaster the foundation to build the even larger empire it has today.
You must starve for your ethics obviously \s
yes, dummy
they could take the year off, they could only play smaller venues, or even larger ones that don't use tickemaster. the artists are the talent, the fault usurious ticketmaster fees falls squarely on the shoulders and in the fault of the artists allow them to pimp their tickets. the change must come from the artists refusing to work with venues that work with ticketmaster
this is not fucking rocket science
Oh wow. I didn't realize you're not able to have an adult conversation. This is helpful information.
I addressed that already, but I see my mistake wasn't using your chosen method of communication. Let me try again:
Pearl. Jam. tried. that. and. there. aren't. enough. ticketmaster-less. venues. available. that. are. large. enough. to. cover. the. costs. of. a. nation. wide. tour.
except. the. biggest. stars. the. talent. is. paid. very. little. and. has. very. little. control. over. their. performance. choices. and. they. need. to. feed. themselves. as. music. is. their. livelihood.
This is business and law, and its far closer to rocket science than your elementary understanding makes it out to be. Its one thing to be ignorant of the way things work. Its yet another to stand proudly and proclaiming you don't care about being ignorant.
I would think that would fall on...you know, maybe the company imposing the fees, or the government and regulatory environment that allows it to continue to go on...but you know what? You're right; the individual artists are to blame. /s
Why don't the artists just make their own venues and start their own Ticketmaster competitor?! Surely they got into music not to try to express themselves, create art, maybe get famous, and make a living! They got into it to become venue builders, show organizers, and to be embroiled in the politics of the music industry. /s
The artist does have a choice in that they can play at a live nation venue and work through Ticketmaster, or they can find a new career because live nation has a monopoly on venues as well as ticketing. So in reality the only artists that have a choice are the Taylor Swifts that are essentially market makers, and the nobodies that aren't selling tickets anywhere but at the door anyway.
That's the nature of monopolies. Yes, if all artists banded (no pun intended) together and told live nation to fuck off, it would work, but getting everyone to do it won't ever happen. So unfortunately, you have to play the game or get out. Ideally, existing laws would prevent this from happening, but our law makers and enforcers are a bunch of money hungry, corporate sluts, so we end up with this broken system.
None taken.
Kinda naïve view...
Artists that have to work hard are not really free. They need every stage where they can get on.
Artists that are actually rich cannot make such a decision just for themselves. There is a whole company of people around them. They create and perform their shows together.
Sure, they can choose to get paid or not.
how that boot taste?
Having a choice isn't much of a choice when it's a monopoly.
Also here's some inside baseball about the Dimension 20 / Ticketmaster nonsense that happened earlier this year
https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZPREpJjss/
Yes, they can choose to either NOT be a professional artist, or to work with Live Nation and Ticket Master.
It's one, or the other.
It was also cheaper 30 years ago to pay everyone involved in that band's tour, which all comes out of the artist's pot of money. So a smaller venue means less for artists and the crews supporting them.
So, while doing this now sounds great, that would mean your either continuing to pay a road crew no longer needed for these much smaller tours/venues, or laying these people off (when some of these people will have been part of these crews for the bands touring lifetime).
Monopolies are the opposite of choice.
Artists don't have enough money in the bank to enact what would basically be a strike. If they stopped playing Ticketmaster venues, they'd basically stop playing actual venues entirely. They'd have to play tiny independent venues, where they'd end up losing money, because they physically can't sell enough tickets to cover the cost of time, travel, paying roadies, etc. Or, the ticket prices would be inaccessibly high.
The problem with live shows is directly attributable to the effective monopoly that Ticketmaster has, allowing them to fuck over artists and venues equally.
The very few artists who do, and have the creative freedom to so do are probably the only ones who could get away with this. Convention Centers don't seem to have the same density of existing Ticketmaster relationships, and while they'd have to pay to bring in seating at some, I bet they could do it for something similar to Ticketmaster's middleman fees.
I'm not sure the difference between costs for concert venues and convention centers, but if it's anywhere near comparable, it could be feasible.