Gazans forced to drink dirty, salty water as the fuel needed to run water systems runs out
edition.cnn.com
Hamas’ brutal attacks in Israel on October 7 killed at least 1,400 people and the group took more than 200 hostages, according to Israeli authorities. In the wake of the assault, Israel launched an aerial bombardment of Gaza that Palestinian health officials say has killed more than 5,000 people. Israel also announced a “complete siege” on the enclave, withholding vital supplies of water, food and fuel.
The news just said that Israel is withholding fuel as Hamas might use it.
Next will be we’re withholding food as Hamas might eat some.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. What Hamas did was terrible, but Israel has done is no better.
The fact that for one side in a war collateral damage is acceptable is fucking disgusting and it makes me ashamed to be a human.
I condemned my own country (UK) when we helped invade Afghanistan and Iraq and murdered civilians.
They left out the part where Israel is committing ethnic cleansing out in the open.
That’s because Israel is the only nation on Earth seemingly except from criticism, else you’re labelled an anti-Semite.
Yup. I've always said #FuckIsrael, but i get labelled an antisemite for saying it. Fucking israel is not innocent in all this. Fuck.
Criticizing Israel is the opposite of being anti semitic. It's an acceptance that the state does not represent all Jewish people and an acceptance that ethnicity and religion are not a monolith and that these do not exempt a person from being a piece of shit
Ask any Jew hypothetical question, do you agree to disband Israel as a country?
Pretty sure they all will say no.
Israel represents all Jews. Full stop.
Yeah except the thousands of Jews totally opposed to it because it's an apartheid state...
Very scientific. Ask them a loaded question I don't care about that isn't on the table. Then you're pretty sure they'll all answer the same way. Do you see how that is anti semitic? Do you think all Jewish people are the same?
Hamas's entire reason for existing is to destroy Israel and set up a caliphate. This is in their words, in their charter.
It's not a loaded question
It is absolutely a loaded question. The question is not whether Israel should exist or if we should accept what Hamas says about the state of Israel. The question is do Jewish people support the actions of the Israeli government.
ya, fair few, especially outside Israel would actually consider the disbanding of Israel a good idea, then again those are also not the ones you openly recognize as jewish....
It's extra fun when it's Jewish groups doing the protesting.
If we follow Israeli logic, we would have to deny all of Israel food, water and medicine, because their government is committing war crimes and acts of terrorism.
That would be totally absurd.
But somehow, our western leaders find this logic acceptable when applied to Palestinians.
Almost all western leaders have condemned Israel blocking vital supplies and the forced indiscriminate expulsion of civilians from north Gaza, as far as I know. Just like they condemn the atrocities of indiscriminate murder and kidnapping of civilians committed by Hamas. International aid is still being sent to Palestine, except where Israel blocks it. And the international community rightfully complains that this blockade is not in accordance with humanitarian laws and applies diplomatic pressure to get it through.
"The West" is neither accepting Israels logic blindly, nor does it excuse Hamas transgressions. But it mostly does it with words for fear of escalation. This also applies to nearby Arabian countries, by the way. Egypt refuses to accept Palestinian refugees for fear of Hamas establishing a base in Egypt Sinai and firing rockets from there, which would risk a much larger conflict. Nobody except Hamas, Hisbollah and Iran - and Russia, because it distracts from Ukraine - wants the conflict to escalate.
of course not. this conflict will only end if both (!!) sides stop this shit. Both sides have to accept the other one as humans, as independent states, their different religions, all that stuff. Without that there will be no peace, only more death on both sides.
You're making it sound as if the Israeli government and Hamas have equal power, which is ridiculously wrong. Though officially in charge, Hamas has almost no authority to govern Palestine or otherwise do anything except commit atrocities against civilians.
Israel has the power to stop the oppression and genocide of Palestinians almost immediately and everything would become much more peaceful in a matter of months, maybe even weeks.
They won't do that though, since they're governed by genocidal fascists emulating apartheid South Africa, some of whom won't even accept the existence of a Palestinian people.
like the Hamas? From their agenda:
Read the articles I posted that explain it. Everyone sane agrees that the terrorism of Hamas is atrocious, but that doesn't absolve the Israeli oppressors from responsibility for their own actions, especially because they're by far the ones with the most power to enact change.
Nuance is lost in war. Is that part of Hamas charter because of the atrocities Israel has inflicted on them or in spite of it? In case you don’t understand, has Palestinians always wanted to kill Israelites, or is it only after decades of abuse and mistreatment, has one group finally said “fuck it, kill them all.”
Good question since this area is in a conflict since the establishment of Israel in 1948 and even before that and hatred for Jews was and is pretty common in different countries around the globe. So I dont know maybe everything would be fine if no one had declared war on Israel on Day 2 of their existence and had just accepted the decision made by the U.N.
The decision made by the UN to put half of all Palestinians under Israeli rule, yes.
🤷♂️
So... Let's see, like they're doing in the West Bank? So tell me why there are pogroms going on there?
From wikipedia on Hamas charter:
Now do the quotes from Israeli government officials including Netanyahu himself advocating for a one country (final) solution to "the Palestinian problem", nazi rhetoric intended and appropriate in this context.
they are rabid dogs who need to be put out of their misery. But not on the back of Palestine people. But I agree there is no peace with them in charge.
Seems pretty reasonable what they are saying. Israel and the world ignored every UN resolution. Why shouldn't they take up arms against Israel?
You think that killing civilians is reasonable?
let me ask you the same thing, what is your opinion on the bombing of German Cities in WW2? the firebombing and nuking in Japan?
are you going to call the entente and later allied powers on the level of Hamas?
Killing civilians is never right, it wasn't back then, and it isn't right now. But the big difference is that Hamas' primary goal is to murder as many innocents as possible, not to win a war. That is why they are not on the same level.
Man conversations with you must take forever if your expectation is that all bad things ever need to be stated!
well, no, what I'm pointing out is that: Civilian casualties happen in war, it's just odd that we tend to value these civilians differently based on who we feel they are affiliated with, so if you can't stand Hamas killing civilians, why can you stand Israel kill 3 times as many? why could you stand Allied forces doing it?
No, I'm saying armed resistance is reasonable when all UN resolutions fail.
That being said, I think the massacre committed by militants outside Gaza is one of their lowest points, and is not reasonable, and has bit them in the ass.
And fucking zionist assholes are given the time of day to say that Palestinians are not animals because comparing them to animals would be an insult to animals. Fucking disgraceful. I know Hamas did some unspeakably terrible and should be punished for them, but fucking oppressing the people of Palestine and treat them to sub human conditions over decades only to get mad and offended that they got fed up with your shit only to treat them even less tells so much about your upbringing and your mental state.
Sorry, had to rant.
Yes but at the same time. The exact same people were also supported by other countries. What did they do with that support? They made weapons from them. New waterpipes? New attack rocket.
I mean, ya turns out your options are actually trying to live together with the people (challenge level IMPOSSIBLE with the nationalists and the
whiteJewish power party), or genocide. what would you do to the things you describe as less than animals?The answer you want is 'kill all' the answer we need is "work the fuck together you religious honor pieces of shit".
-b.b.b.ut the long war and unfair landddddd.
Suck it up assholes. They made the past so incredibly complex that even writing it out now would reach text limits.
There are only 3 ways this can go:
But most importantly stop killing civilians (also both sides). And fucking Hamas release the captives (cause there is only 1 party with actual hostages right now, and no I don't mean the Gaza people locked in Gaza).
It might be a very bad example, but why could east and west Germany reunite with their different political systems. Sometimes you have to work together to get peace. These people don't want peace they both want "what is ours". I know there are idiotic rules in place to protect Israel, but that also got us into this extremely complex mesh of problems.
Currently, the option everyone is supporting: Look we just keep slaughtering them until they stop, it will work eventually!
also, the reason East/West Germany could reunite was because the GDR government had functionally collapsed, and West Germany didn't see East Germans as a menace that should get out of their holy land
You are just calling out effect and ignoring the cause. This isn't just a now war, this is a 70 year war
A lot of money was spent before that 'now war' to support these people and make sure they could life on their own supplies. https://www.usaid.gov/west-bank-and-gaza/our-work
https://dutchdevelopmentresults.nl/2019/country/palestinian-territories
https://unfccc.int/climate-action/un-global-climate-action-awards/financing-for-climate-friendly-investment/self-reliance-solar
And what did this all lead to?!? nothing! People still don't have power, no clean drinking water, no food. No we tried to support them and everything was misused.
But they have missiles, aren't they? Can't say it lead to nothing.
how much fuel is hamas hoarding right now?
I'm guessing you mean Hamas' military branch? Because it's the Hamas Government that is running out of fuel, plus all the UNRWA schools and NGO hospitals.
So even if Hamas' military has fuel, It's not enough for 2 million people, so it doesn't matter.
This siege is preventing basic goods from entering to innocent civilians. Trying to get people to look away is really lame.
It's 500,000 liters. You don't just get to say that doesn't matter. Especially when the fuel the UN brought in was also stolen by Hamas. If Hamas is stealing and hoarding all the fuel, then they do carry the blame for the lack of fuel. What good is it doing anyone if everything there will just be stolen by Hamas and then used for further attacks?
The lack of fuel is caused by Israeli illegal blockage on Gaza (which is also a war crime btw). Yes, there is a chance the military side of Hamas has fuel tucked away, but the main cause is still Israel stopping any goods from entering.
By the end of today, if volunteers can no longer bring fuel to the hospitals, about 130 babies are risking death within minutes without incubators. Let's not fucking kid ourselves... Israel is the problem. Whatever Hamas "steals" as you claim (something the UNRWA later denied) is only a drop in the ocean when we talk about 2 million residents who haven't gotten basic needs that would normally flow into Gaza on a daily basis.
Those 130 babies will literally not die. For starters.
How are you ignoring the fact that Hamas takes the fuel. The UN just said they had their fuel stolen. So those babies will die, more Israelis will die, and more Palestinians will die.
If the UN had forces guarding supplies and stopping theft, that might be different. But you are asking Israel to allow in supplies that are be and will continue to be stolen and used in attacks against Israel. Ignoring that it will not save civilians.
So why doesn't Israel distribute fuel to civilian Palestinians in Gaza?
Because they'd be attacked, kidnapped, and/or killed. Seriously what kind of question is this? How do you propose they go into Gaza, distribute the aid, and not get attacked. Hamas is rolling right up to the aid and stealing it. Are you suggesting Israel completely occupy the region and maintain security in order to distribute aid?
No, I'm suggesting that Israel is a genocidal colonial force that needs to fuck off.
What do you mean by fuck off?
Stop their colonialism and apartheid.
I'm the Gaza Strip, they have. The strip has the 1967 borders and no settlements.
What do you consider their colonialism?
I consider it wrong.
Because their government, Hamas, is in charge of that. The logistics to distribute fuel would require reoccupation of the Gaza Strip.
I feel like we're missing the part where Israel could just turn the power back on... if Hamas has fuel to run their weapons what is even the point of cutting electricity?
Generally, as a competent government, you don't attack and call for the genocide of your neighbors; starting a war. And then expect that neighbor to fund your war effort.
Here we have someone trying to say that withholding food and medicine and fuel for 2.2m people, half of which are children, is the same as not funding your enemy's war efforts.
Fuck me sideways.
Turns out food, fuel and medicine are considered dual purpose goods. They have civilian purposes and they have military applications. When you declare a war against your neighbor; you shouldn't expect that neighbor to fund, at it's own expense, your economy.
Hamas steals fuel supplies from the UN in Gaza. So supplying the UNWRA fuel is going to give Hamas more fuel.
If the UN want a humanitarian aid they need to send blue hats entitled to protect the aid like they do in Africa.
I think you're missing my point.
Do you think the entire power grid of Gaza is run off fossil fuel generators inside of Gaza?
I'll just cut to the chase. Here, have an infographic from the UN that might be slightly out of date but will still give you a much better understanding of the situation
I'm aware that Israel provides massive amounts of monetary and in kind aid to Palestinians both in the West Bank and the Gaza strip.
I'm questioning why Hamas, as the defacto government of the Gaza Strip, expects that aid to continue to flow after declaring war? That's stupid. The phrase is, "Don't bite the hand that feeds you."
I'm sorry is this really your whole argument for why Israel should be allowed to do war crimes?
Ah yes for Israel to give humanitarian aid it has to commit 2-3 more war crimes.
If they actually get it. Hamas has already shown they will take it and not give it to their citizens.
Unless Hamas decides to prioritize its citizens, there is nothing the world can do and they are dead.
So, to Israel, are Gazans less important? Because Israel as already shown they will bomb the Rahah checkpoint and not allow fuel in knowing full well it's needed for generating electricity and providing clean water?
I'm genuinely asking: what do you think is Israel's responsibility towards civilians in Gaza and their own hostages stuck in Gaza as well?
As with any nation - yes, your citizens are less important than mine.
I won't comment on the checkpoint as I am not informed on the full story. I have however formally studied war crime in the general sense (not this specific example though).
Blockades are legitimate and commonly used in warfare - denying supplies are practical and it can be reasonably assumed they will find their way into the hands of the enemy. Saying that, it must be proportional and cause as little disruption to the civilian population as possible.
hamas has shown it will cross borders to kill and abduct civilians, and kill them at a later date (undisputed war crime there).
Hamas has shown they will claim aid destined for civilians
hamas has shown they will withhold supplies from it citizens
Therefore, it can be reasonably assumed that any supplies crossing the border will be used in direct action against Israel. If the aid was finding its way to civilians, was being utilized for humanitarian reasons and distinctly separately from armed forces supplies it could be argued that the blockade is now illegal. This would also apply if Hamas was no longer a threat.
Israel responsibility lies with its citizens first. Does it suck for civilians stuck in the middle - absolutely.
@HappycamperNZ
It's not a food fight. Deliberate starvation is against international law..
I don't know what you "studied formally" but either you misunderstood what it means to consider the effects on the civilian population, or the person teaching you was some kind of monster.
Reading your link - deliberate starvation of civilians with intent to cause civilian harm or death, or eliminate a part of the population is indeed a war crime.
Also quoted from your link - a blockade is only intended to remove resources from adversarial forces, impediment of humanitarian aid is incidental harm. They key difference here is intent, and with Hamas seizing aid crossing the border and not distributing it any reasonable person would agree that it is stopping supplies to opposing forces.
Does it suck for civilian population - absolutely. But its not a war crime. Personally I think a coalition of multiple countries needs to go in and remove hamas, get aid set up for the civilian population and then investigate crimes on both sides - but that's not going to happen.
@HappycamperNZ I think you have an eccentric interpretation of international law that is contrary to most expert opinion. Which is fortunate because starving civilian populations for any reason is a gruesome thing to do and is quite rightly illegal.
Starving the civilians in this context is widely seen as illegal. Here are some examples of legal consensus opinion I found from a quick google:
The UN Human Rights Council Israel/Gaza: UN experts urge lawyers advising Israeli military to refuse legal authorisation of actions that could amount to war crimes
The ICJ Israel/Occupied Palestinian Territory: immediately end attacks on civilians
Center For Constitutional Rights, US Rights Lawyers Release Legal Analysis of U.S. Complicity in Israel’s Unfolding Genocide Against Palestinians in Gaza
Second article on this
CFR: What International Law Has to Say About the Israel-Hamas War
Legal opinion in Jurist Hamas Atrocities Cannot Rationalize the Starvation of Civilians
Legal professor quoted in Deutschwelle who sums up consensus Israel, Gaza: What are the rules of international law?
I accept that you will easily be able to point me to competing positions, largely from Israelis and Americans, but I think you should be aware that these are in the minority.
If the people living in Gaza don't belong to israel to which nation to they belong?
Legally, none. If you mean for travel purposes (passport), then they can apply for that with the Palestinian authority. I haven't a clue what their tax system is, but they aren't being paid to Israel. Stateless people exist all over the world. And some people start in one nation, never move, and up in another. This isn't even a point of contention in the situation.
fuck genocidal zionist Israel.
Yeah, we know you came in here with an agenda and no intention of unbiased discussion.
If Hamas steals the fuel. Allowing the fuel in is defacto allowing the military your fighting to resupply.
Hamas, as the governing body of the Gaza Strip, has a duty to supply it's populace with sufficient good when conducting a war. It's inability to do so it's Hamas' fault, not the fault of the person they declared war upon.
Collective punishment is a war crime. Why is this being forgotten here? Why does Israel get an okay to commit war crimes and blame it on the population and a government the majority of them didn't even vote for in 2006 (you do the math, 1.1m Gazans are children, and the other 1.1m other adults needed to have been at least 18 in 2006, and on top of that it was a 40% vote, so the excuse you are making is pure BS to be honest... putting the fault on a "governing body" of a population that is not able to govern itself or have free elections since ever, with Israel making every step in their lives infinitely worse and holding out water).
Israel = genocide.
Because it's not collective punishment. Collective punishment is things like the Bombing of Dresden or the Battle of Britain where a military/air force explicitly target civilian infrastructure. Declining to supply your enemy isn't a war crime.
Israel disengaged from the Gaza Strip in 2004/2005. They've been self governing since then. Had they (Israel) forced a regime change in the past they would have been criticized by the world for reneging on their commitment to a two state solution. It's not a great situation, but polling suggests that Hamas is incredibly popular in both the Strip and the West Bank.
Oh, and blockades are not war crimes and can be reasonably consider proportional to reduce the chances and effect of further attacks against its civilians (which were undoubtedly war crimes).
Holding the blockade to punish civilians once hamas is no longer a threat would be a war crime, but not there yet.
You mean they are regulated by international law. When was the last time you heard about Israel not breaking international law? I'm serious.
Yes, the literal definition of crime is against the law.
I haven't heard of them breaking the law ever - didn't hear about Palestine either until they crossed the border a few weeks ago.
Then you have a lot of reading to catch up with.
Yes, last one i saw was something like 1,500 years of history that lead to this one?
Unfortunately the blockade we are discussing is only a few weeks old.
Nah the blockades has been around since 2005 when Hamas took over in Gaza, after Israel demilitarized and demobilized the entire region (this was intended to occur in the west bank as well, but with the way things went in Gaza that idea died). And the blockades has intensified over the years coinciding with attacks.
After this, we are likely looking at an extended dmz if I give my honest thoughts.
Yeah, your comment isn't "fuck Israel" so you got downvoted too. This whole post reeks of biased agenda rather than discussions.
I don't want to sound unemphatic, but would YOU wish to be born to a world like that? I know I'll get downvoted for this, but I'd like to take a real look for once. Sure, every life is precious, and that part of the world might have different views of what is good and bad about it, but a fucking warzone? It's like giving birth and taking care of a baby in in Ukraine.
Just like people don’t say that rebel israeli soldiers acting illegally committed whatever atrocities and just say it was israel (or even worse the jewish people) i do not make the distinction between the terrorists sub divisions.
::: spoiler spoiler
No but for real, New Zealand does, same with the UN. Do you think you're better than New Zealand and the UN? :::
New Zealand funds terrorism because of it.
Not according to the US, do you have any sources to back your claim?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/10/eu-funded-water-pipelines-hamas-rockets/
Hamas converts domestic aid into war supplies.
rebel soldiers? no, the Israeli government gives medals for killing children, I have no clue where you got the rebel soldier bit from.
So in competent governments, the Civilian government controls the military. So how much fuel is Hamas hoarding.
Honestly, if I were Hamas now and the next step was trying to fight off an Israeli invasion of the Gaza strip (where they will enter to do Deir Yassin just x100), then hanging on to the little fuel I have would actually save more lives on the long run /:
It's 2023, they can do Deir Yassin x100 without an invasion. A 48 hour traditional artillery barrage; similar to what Russia has done to cities in Eastern Ukraine would do it.
That's a hell of a what about ism.
Putting pressure on the population like this, is putting pressure on the government to spend critical resources, to make them less capable of fighting a war. It is a valid, and historically often used, siege strategy.
The main point, is the civilians in Gaza are trapped, they're not allowed to leave, they don't have water, they don't have power to make water, they are suffering. That's the takeaway, ending the suffering should be the goal.
Even if Hamas gave up all of their fuel reserves, which the reserving for the ground assault they've been told is coming, even if they gave up all of their fuel, the siege would not be ended, and the civilians would still not have water. It might be delayed by a day. But it doesn't change the situation that exists right now
Steal the fuel from the terrorists, problem solved
ok, but the terrorists are not importing any new fuel, what do the hospitals do tomorrow when the terrorist fuel is gone?
The fuel will buy the hospitals and actual civilians more time to use vital facilities, while disrupting the HAMAS scum. Without fuel hamas will be very soft targets.
Do you see the energy embargo ending just because hamas has no more fuel?
I don't, the cruelty is the point here, its not accidental. its designed to put pressure on the Gaza government through humanitarian disaster, and thats terrible.
That doesn't sound a lot tbh... If you calculate with 2M people there, it's just 0.25 litres per person. I don't think that would be sufficient to filter vast amounts of water.
Also, why haven't the fuel tanks been destroyed in the strategic military focused air bombings? Obviously they've been identified so that they can be reported on
No, they just managed to get a good look at fuel tanks (but no information about the content)... and yet when they bomb "terrorists" in Gaza with heir super x-ray vision, they still manage to kill 40% children.
I think this is simply a function of the asymmetry of the military forces involved. The Israeli military has full control of the air, long range artillery, modern western weapons. They can destroy any target they want easily.
Therefore any installation Hamas has that's separated from the population, will have already been destroyed in the early phases of the conflict 20 years ago. Anything they build that's away from population centers would be immediately destroyed.
Perhaps it's an unintended consequence but the emerging behavior is the only military installations that survive are near civilian populations. It doesn't help that the population density of the conflict area is incredibly high, with the majority of the population being children. Meaning there's children everywhere around every target. Because any target that's not around children would have been destroyed already.
And none of this has to do with the intentions of either side, it's just the asymmetric capabilities creating de facto emergent behavior. It's not that Hamas is trying to use human shields, they have no other practical choice. And before the exasperated brigade starts to dogpile me, this is just the reality of war, it's not an apology.
Yes, but you still need someone to pull the trigger, and then you need 10 other nations to say "it's the right to self defense" to make it okay.
It's might + intent, not one without the other.
Because the government of Israel has asymmetric strength in this conflict, it makes them more responsible to move towards peace. Simply because they have most of the capabilities.
Blaming Hamas is completely valid, Hamas is a bad actor.
Blaming the Palestinian people is not valid, Israel the country with its asymmetric capabilities is the responsible one to bring the populations towards peace.
As the last 60 years of demonstrated, using your asymmetric power to just bomb a population into submission, might buy you a respite, but does not end the cycle of violence
Yep, and honestly I keep wondering what Israel was thinking. Did it think it could keep Palestinians from retaliating forever?
What was the plan for Gaza anyway? Leaving that bomb ticking rather than removing the siege (gradually at least) and allowing these people self-determination.
Leaving that bomb ticking was exactly what was keeping Netanyahu in power.
I believe there said they'll stop the siege if the hostages are released.
Ah yes as if they have the right to make conditions about people's lives.
The hostages are being freed one by one. Let's see if Israel stops genocidin' when the hostages have been released.
My bet is that it will not.
Probably the location. A fuel depot would cause secondary explosions, and a large one. Israel attempts to mitigate damage to Innocents with its air strikes.
Counting it towards to number of people is a little silly. Checking how long a generator can run off of a liter of fuel makes much more sense.
On top of that, not only are they hoarding, but they are also stealing what comes in.
I quickly googled some numbers, so no guarantee for 100% correctness.
Desalination uses about 3.6kWh/m3 of water. A generator can produce around 1.5kWh/litre of fuel. 500,000 litres of fuel would result in 750,000 kWh. 750,000 kWh would result in 208,333 m3 or 208,333,000 litres of water. That theoretically would allow you to create around 200 litres per person if you use the entire amount of fuel on water desalination.
But this calculation only works in a hypothetical scenario and not in a real life scenario. Distribution of the water to all the people will require a lot of energy as well, e.g. for tank trucks. And I think in an active war zone you probably won't find world class logistics.
Furthermore, you also need fuel and electricity for other critical infrastructure: firetrucks, hospitals, phones, cooking, ...
Why would anyone believe their estimates? They've been dropping bombs on civilian houses claiming they're havens for terrorists and didn't even see an attack that appears to have been prepared for completely out in the open. Their vaunted intelligence services seem to be more the result of a good branding campaign than actual competence.
Why don't paltestinians work with Israel to get rid of Hamas ASAP?
Why don't Palestinians work with their oppressor who tortures them in prison and puts up checkpoints to prevent them from reaching schools and kills them indiscriminately? Gosh I don't know. What do you think?
Because the current Israeli government hasn't wanted to get rid of Hamas. They've been using Hamas to weaken the more moderate Palestinian Authority. https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
This is a difficult socioeconomic problem. The majority of the Palestinians in the Gaza strip are under 18. They've lived a life of nothing but oppression. For the vast majority of people there now, this is the only life they've known. And for the adults, they saw a more conciliatory government not give them the life they want.
So within living memory of the population, Hamas won the popular vote, the Palestinian authority was setting up for coup inside of the Gaza strip, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah%E2%80%93Hamas_conflict
And since that coup attempt, there have been no elections in the Gaza strip.
Even presupposing the majority of the children in Gaza wanted to overthrow Hamas, it's a collective action problem, how many of them are willing to throw their lives away to affect a political change, when they see the real threat as an external one.
Historically, religious fundamentalists thrive in adverse conditions. When the population loses all hope, religion tends to step in, and extreme religion tends to dominate.
Being realistic, the first step to removing Hamas support is giving the population better options. Economic options, education options, religious freedom options. And that's going to require a lot of work that isn't military as the ground work
I think how they’re murdering Palestinian children with blind disregard should tell you their opinion on the palestinian people.
Israel doesn’t care about them, they treat Gaza like a house they wanna move into a Palestinians like an infestation.
I mean Hamas also does that. Israeli Arabs are imo objectively treated better by Israel than Palestinians by Hamas, despite the fact that they're also not treated that well.
Had that been the case they would just level the whole thing and make a new parking lot. You severely underestimate military power Israel poses.
Have you seen photos from Gaza? Entire neighborhoods are levelled. Houses obliterated. Some districts look like Warsaw in 1945.
And yet they are not going full force.
"they're not using nukes therefore they are the good guys"
Do you think Hamas or Iran would use one if they had it? I think it would be sent on a donkey if it meant destruction of Israeli lives. I also think loss of civilian lives is inevitable and the exact thing Hamas wants because it makes Israel look bad. Why else would they forbid people to move south when Israel said so prior to bombing? Why would they kidnap people and use as hostages? To them innocent lives are a tool to get some killing done. To Israel innocent lives are unfortunate and unavoidable consequence which will happen in extermination of Hamas, since if they are left to live this whole scenario will repeat.
You people are so historically ignorant.
They don't leave because they know what will happen when they leave because Israel has done this before. Israel will seize the land and their homes and will continue to bomb them in a more dense space. So if they are going to die they choose to die in their homes and not a concentration camp.
You've got real "Why didn't all the colonised countries rise up against their European colonisers" vibes...
Do you believe they didn't rise up because they're genetically inferior? That they deserved suffering and oppression?
Uh... they did rise up??? Hence why america actually exists.
America, the nation of Natives.
If you want an example of the colonized successfully overthrowing their colonizers, take Haiti.
What??? I think you misunderstood what that person was saying.
Yes, thing im a level off
Because Hamas is the only organization fighting Israel, or the only one that matters. So given that Israel has no interest in peace, Hamas is their best bet at getting anything done. Remember: The West Bank doesn't have Hamas, and there are currently honest to God pogroms going on there.
Better question, why did Netanyahu fund Hamas?
Yeah man, they should pull their bootstraps up and just get rid of them man. Just do it. How hard can it be??
Why don't the Palestinians work with Isn'trael to get defanged and become at the mercy of the IDF? That should end them ASAP!
How?
Kidnap them. Israel would gladly pay 10k$ for each one of them.
You're gonna have to pay me more than that to try and kidnap what is essentially a soldier. Do normal Palestinians even have guns or is this even more of a suicide mission than it sounds?
I was merely quoting the original sum. I'd hazard a guess Israel would be willing to pay a lot more for each soldier considering only one of the Iron Dome missiles costs 47k$ or something.
I doubt money is the most important need for a marginalized and oppressed people. Sounds like an alibi offer so people can't say Bibi hasn't tried something else than bombs. Especially that number seems laughably low as you yourself already pointed out. If this could work, they should be able to afford a lot more.
Do you know where I pulled 10k number? It's what people were offered to kill, rape and kidnap people. 10k and an apartment.
Because Israel legitimized Hamas, giving them access to external funding and other political rights, so they could ensure less radical non-terrorist groups wouldn't gain support
Israel's current administration wants Hamas to be the Palestinian political leaders, because Hamas are terrorists with hardliner demands and a hard on for martyrdom... They're the worst way to actually accomplish anything politically
*Forgot the fact that Hamas has literal tons of fuel being used for their war crimes (yes shooting rockets against civilian cities without a clear threatening target is a war crime)
Israel bringing in fuel will be used for rockets and war. Why should they. The only reasonable way for fuel to be actually used for hospitals is if the UN or some other natural party escorts that fuel, preventing Hamas terrorists from stealing it.
Pretty sure hamas also stole fuel that was part of the aid sent in.
Supposedly the UN asked, but Israel said to ask Hamas for theirs
Hamas has over a million liters stockpiled, and is literally the government there, so yeah. They should.
Israel is not handing fuel to these hospitals either... what does that tell us?
A) is it the responsibility of a foreign neighbor or the running government to handle an emergency situation? By the way, the running government is Hamas.
B) how exactly would Israel give those hospitals fuel? They'll drive down gaza boulevard with a fuel truck and just give it to the hospital? Without kidnapped drivers and stolen fuel by Hamas? Even if they did manage a way for the fuel to reach the hospital - Hamas is governing Gaza, and will steal (at least some) of that fuel to fund their war against Israel. Hence Israel has 0 incentive or responsibility to give fuel when it'll come around to bite them in the ass when it'll be used to power rockets.