Knowledge Based Rules

Ashen44@lemmy.ca to 196@lemmy.blahaj.zone – 823 points –

Outer Wilds changed my life then Tunic changed it again

Edit: Game Recommendations by the people in the comments:

And some game recommendations by me to add on to the post:

  • Taiji
    • A 2D puzzle game where you slowly unravel how to solve each different element of the puzzles, eventually culminating in a massive puzzle gauntlet. Basically identical in concept and execution to The Witness, but still very much its own unique and fun game.
  • The Golden Idol
    • A puzzle game where each level you must examine a scene to figure out exactly what happened, eventually piecing together the full story over several levels. Don't let the art style put you off, it's an incredibly well done game. Most similar to Return of the Obra Dinn in concept.
  • Stories: The Path of Destinies
    • an action RPG with a branching choice-driven storyline, but not every story has a happy ending... You'll piece together the true story over multiple playthroughs and eventually find the one true path. It wasn't a particularly life-changing game but it was still a lot of fun and worth checking out if it sounds interesting!
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Outer wilds is soooo good, so thank you for reminding me that tunic exists, I'll get that one now.

do it do it do it do it do it it's so good

I just got it and wow it's real interesting. I got that one big golden thingy to spew out magical lines and stuff, and I got my sword, currently seeking that shield.

Good luck, and remember: always read the manual!

This is like the 3rd time I've seen somebody bring up Outer Wilds today, and I still haven't played it. It looks like that might be next on my list.

I really like it but I'm a fucking dumbass apparently, because I'm stuck in it and can't find any more clues to get further. not as much fun if you're a dumbass

You can send a screenshot of your rumor log to the Outer Wilds discord if you want a hint, they're always helpful. Or I can help if you want

Idk if it's an exaggeration or not to say that Outer Wilds changed my life. I played it years ago yet I still think about it nearly every day. I started learning guitar just to play songs from the game. Highly recommend lol

Just be so careful not to spoil anything. If you lookup hints, do it with keywords to avoid spoilers as much as possible!

One of a kind experience, definitely play it! 🙂

It's easily one of my favourite games of all time, I cannot recommend it enough!

It was definitely worth the price of admission, but I didn't enjoy it enough to finish. The time loop mechanic just got annoying for me after a while. Having to time lots of different things and if you mess up you have to wait 15 minutes to try again.

Noita, but you just suffer along instead of growing

the amount that I got better at noita is higher than for any other game and/or bachelor's degree

You fool

YOU are the fool because I am harvesting this thread for game recommendations and you have fallen right into my trap! Muahaha!

You’re both fools because I am harvesting lols and game recommendations >:)

Tell me what you think about it when you get the game. I'm eager to know.

It'll likely be a long while yet before I end up getting around to it but I'll keep you in mind

Tunic was incredible, what they did with the manual was just, great.

It was so unique! I found myself getting extremely excited whenever I would see that glowing page because it was always a treat to see what new knowledge they would give me next!

I call these puzzle box games because that's what they remind me of and nobody else has a name for them yet. There's one called Void Stranger that nobody ever talks about. Baba Is You is popular but nobody has mentioned it here yet. I think it's sad as hell that people let their dislike of Phil Fish ruin Fez for them. That's a really good game.

i booted up void stranger without knowing anything about it and saw the languages were english and finnish and instantly knew this was going to be another one of those solo finnish dev games that i will become obsessed with

then i got to stage 27 and fucked up the save-the-random-lady puzzle then the game saved itself and put 2 and 2 together and i think i'm going to have to complete this entire game without dying once to beat it

funger moment tbh

Ooh, I think Void Stranger is the first game in this thread I've genuinely never heard of before! It looks very interesting! I'll definitely add that one to the list. Baba Is You is an absolute mind bender of a game. I keep going back to it but it fries my brain every time. I've gotten decently far but holy moly does it get difficult towards the end! Fez really must be good given how many people are still recommending it despite hating its creator. That's definitely a sign that it's a real classic!

"The Long Dark". Knowing the maps by heart and being able to navigate by landmarks is key to survival.

For anyone that has last played the game 2 or more years ago, go and revisit it. The game has had continuous improvements that make it worth a revisit.

I tend to not get into these types of games because the progression is often a time-limited loop, and a lot of the time you have to go to the same place or do the same thing multiple times before you can finish it because those are places or actions that don't persist through a loop.

Similarly, games setup like Mario 64 where every level is intended to be played 5 or 6 times to get all the stars instead of just having it designed in a way that you can get everything in one go if you're good enough.

Obra Dinn and Tunic are not like that.

Obra Dinn, you're just investigating a memory and doing detective work. You might notice a slip of paper, or broken glass, that helps you with the next step.

Tunic is more about unlocking pages, that you can then remembering that "ah to open up a red door, you have to do a little dance".

Both games, you can absolutely play them in a linear path without repeating the level over and over (like your example of Mario 64).

So I'd say give them a chance. :-)

Chants of Senaar too. I feel like the only game in the image that has you doing that stuff a bunch is Outer Wilds

Of the games pictured in the image, only Outer Wilds has a mechanic like that.

I'll mention Fez since I think people forgot about it in the wake of all the Phil Phish drama.

Excellent game that I think fits this bill.

I still think about the Heart Cube puzzle with the observatory and red stars in that game sometimes.

Curiously Deep Rock Galactic is about practical knowhow. At least that differentiates greenbeards from greybeards.

  • The oppressor is nearly immune to bullets but melee attacks are super effective
  • The Driller will overheat digging about 12 meters (depending on the upgrades used) Digging ten clicks then pausing to cool will prevent overheat
  • Cave leeches make a distinct yummy noise before attacking. You can escape by seeking cover again. Cave leech attacks are often facilitated by a distraction such as minerals or glyphid ambushes
  • The Scout's grappling hook does not account for safe perch or landing. Scouting to a sheer cliff is a good way to just get hurt. Mind where you're going to land.
  • On the other hand minerals embedded in a cliff face often protrude enough to get purchase. This can be facilitated with a flying pickax attack. Practice, practice!
  • Likewise, dwarves can scamper up steep slopes like mountain goats with forward movement and spamming jump.
  • Then again, gravity is the number one killer of dwarves, seconded by common Glyphid Grunts. Don't underestimate them.
  • The Driller's Collette Wave Cooker can defuse unfuzed Exploders when it deals the killing damage (defuse = doesn't explode). The Driller's Cryo Cannon can defuse fuzing Exploders...sometimes.
  • Overhanging cliff-sides are the nemesis to the Engineer's platforms. If you dont want to carve out headroom, extend them out a layer or two.
  • The Engineer / Scout team (platforms and grappling hooks) can quickly exploit the high-positioned minerals in a cave.
  • That said, platforms can make for great bridges. Do so at whimsy for starters and learn where it's useful.
  • And yet, the engineer has the most trouble traversing sheer incline, especially in tight quarters. Make sure your Engie can get to the drop-pod safely.
  • Speaking of extraction, Simple Mining missions are the most linear and require the most attention regarding preparing traversal back to the droppod. Escort is also linear but naturally comes with a big tunnel which makes it easy (when Dotty doesn't carve a vertical drop). Other missions feature a rounder, unlinear complex and a shorter exfiltration. Sometimes the pod will drop onto a crap place, with the ramp in mid air, or embedded in hard rock.
  • Drillers should watch for adjacent chambers to connect by tunnel. Engineers should bridge chasms and seal holes. Engies can also create safe steps to traverse hot slag and slime. Both can level out arenas where fights are expected (say when prepping for a dreadnought or powering up a salvaged drop-pod)
  • In escort the Engineer's grenades make short work of rocks and beamers. (The latter needs something that chips into rock, even a scout with a pickaxe power attack). The Gunner's hurricane rocket launcher manages both nicely.
  • Dotty, Hack-C, Steeve, lootbugs, Hexawings, Breathers, Cave Vines can all be petted and should be. Bosco can be saluted. Using the laser pointer, other Dwarves can be talked to.

These are all off the top of my head. There are dozens of others one learns on the path to Greybeard enlightenment. Rock and Stone.

I'm a big rock'n'stoner (700 hours) but I think you're stretching it a bit.

Of course there's knowledge and experience to acquire, but it's not the main progression system. They are needed to beat harder missions, but the same could be said about 90% of the games out there.

On the other hand, I will agree that DRG does allow the player to express them more than your average RPG, because upgrades won't beat haz 5 on their own. You still need to know how to play the game, and that is made of little know-hows and techniques like the ones you listed.

I think it might be classified less as knowledge but more skill? I dunno, it walks the line. Looking for opportunities to use your utilities makea the difference between a greenbeard and a greybeard.

For those looking for more. Fez is a delight and a classic in the genre. The very last puzzle is more interesting from a community lore standpoint than actually being a decent puzzle, though. So be kind to yourself on that one.

I played it and bounced off long before I got medicated, I should really go back to it now that I have acquired the ability to think!

My brain went in reverse once I got treatment, I’d get hooked for hours on these sorts of puzzles and now it’s a bit harder to fall that deep into something. I did all of fez in a weekend and it’s not entirely a weekend game.

That's very interesting! My experience with treatment has mostly been that all the games I thought sounded really cool but weren't very fun turned out to actually be extremely fun, I was just utterly incapable of immersing myself in anything before treatment. Granted my issue was severe ADHD and I have no idea what yours is.

Same. Though I’m new to treatment, so maybe there’s still hope! I’ve been trying to play through FFVII (original) lately, but before and after treatment, it’s still a lit to dedicate time to. Other games on my list feel more daunting too, and that builds a rusty-game feedback loop if I’ve already started the game as it’s more daunting the farther I get from them. Might still need some adjustment to dosage or type.

It's definitely something that takes trial and error, and I know for some people the medication doesn't work very well at all unfortunately. I know you didn't ask an internet stranger for their armchair psychiatry but one thing I can recommend is that you don't let medication be your only treatment! Routines and exercise have both been extremely effective for me personally at mitigating the effects of ADHD. I know those are both almost impossible to get into precisely BECAUSE of ADHD, but if you can, try and use the medicine as a springboard to help you! I'd recommend talking to a professional about various non-pharmaceutical things you can do to supplement your medication. Good luck and try not to let anything kill your love for games!

Thanks! I’m definitely interested in not letting meds be the only tool. I’ve heard countless times that lifestyle changes are much more effective at changing things.

I’m in the phase where I was hoping the spring board would be more noticeable. Right now, I have a marginally better ability to work at work under certain conditions at the cost of focus for the rest of the day (when I’d have an opportunity to work on my own routines-health). It’s also possible that it’s being really effective at just keeping me from drowning in some normal but overwhelming life changes. But it’s still early days. It’s definitely encouraging to hear that others get benefits from a wholistic approach to facing ADHD. Thanks!

What's so good a out outer wilds? What's so appealing?

Outer Wilds is a game you can beat in 20 minutes, but you spend 15 hours figuring out how to actually do that. Along the way you unravel a lovely story of curiosity and discovery and loss, while trying to solve one of the greatest mysteries in the universe. It's a beautiful game and a true once-in-a-lifetime experience in the most literal sense, since you can only experience it once. Like the other person said, if this sounds appealing to you, give it a try! You will absolutely know whether the game is for you well within the refund period.

I would buy it and give it a shot. You should know before the refund window if it's something you're interested in or not

Me, spending two hours slowly exploring and reading everything before launch: “oh no”

chanting: play it play it play it play it

Every person I've seen online talk about it wishes to be you, everybody wants to experience it for the first time again. To unravel the mystery once again, to have the pieces fall into place and understand it for the first time again. As the other person said - you can complete the game in 15 minutes, but it'll take you 15h+ to understand how to do that. It's a wonderful little piece of art which nobody will tell you anything about - because they don't dare to ruin your experience of playing it for the first time.

It's about space, it's about curiosity, it's about discovery, and learning, and that's about how much I'm willing to say about it.

You just have to take our word for it. It's the type of game that comes once a decade and stays in peoples' hearts forever.

I’m interested in these types of games but fear that as I don’t have a a lot of time to play and don’t have regular times to play, I’d get half way through and just forget what’s going on.

Even funnier if you return to the game like one or two years later and remember absolutely nothing.

Yeah. Had that problem with Chants of Senaar and Return of the Obra Dinn. Keeping notes definitely helps though.

I hear you’re taking reccos. May I suggest The Forgotten City? It’s not quite the same, but has a very similar “learn wtf is happening* as you go” mechanic. Also it’s one of my favorites.

Another comment recommended that as well, I'll add that to the list! I always love a good "wtf is going on" type mystery.

Check out chants of senaar

It's on the picture already. Cool game tho

Lol I totally did not see that. Thanks for pointing it out. I only saw the stuff on the left for some reason

heavens vault is superior in terms of translation more accurately representing the puzzle. although the game is horrible to play and the MC is just so fucking mean

yeah I definitely enjoyed the translation gameplay in heaven's vault more, but otherwise chants of senaar way outclasses it for the reasons you mentioned.

I'm so mixed on heaven's vault. I think my steam review calls it the worst game I unquestionably recommend.

Like the moments of jaw dropping insight, when suddenly something clicks and a new interpretation comes to light. you go through the timeline updating, reinterpreting, and recontextualising. Coming out the other side with a revolutionised understanding of the world's history mwah. Or revisiting old sites and having a chuckle at how wrong you were.

Yet between that is completely pointless vehicle sections, arthritic walking frame point and click navigation, dialogue choices presented as "yes" that are acted out as "Well I know you are practically working yourself to the bone to give me a better life but have you considered that you're a shitstain and I hate you? well I'll consider it" that make the character horrible to play.

don't forget the UI being just bad and deeply confusing (at least to me)

I can't remember it being bad? what was your issue?

honestly I don't remember, I played it for less than 2h and refunded it years ago. The only thing that comes to me is the timeline screen which was just? dafuq is this and why should I care? It looked important but nothing was explained

I straight up could not get past the gameplay and character flaws, I decided I was flipping done even in time to get a refund.

Such a shame as I'm a massive archeology nerd

Honestly just smoke a joint so you're in less of a hurry and do it. It's really quite good.

The character is at least not written awfully, like she's a reasonable take on a young person beaten down and mean through lifetime injustice. I think it's made worse by having you participate in dialogue choices but forcing you to be a giant arsehole.

Like I fucking hate almost all of the game that isn't the linguistics. The art can be nice I guess. Even so I think everyone should play it, it's really that good. I have a binder full of notes and translation attempts etc. Few puzzles grip me so.

if I got high for it it'd be even worse. I mainly struggled with jagged movement, no time to answer properly, and the UI being shitwank. That'd give me a headache and frustrate me even more when high

Kingdom Come: Deliverance fits this bill, I think. I haven't played any of the games listed yet, so I can't compare.

Not particularly. Also, Tunic really shouldn't be on the list.

Games like Tunic or Kingdom Come, you get better at the game as you learn more. With total knowledge of the game comes mastery of the gameplay.

The rest of the games on this list, there's effectively no gameplay once you know everything about the game. With total knowledge of the game comes an end to the gameplay, because knowledge literally is progression in the game. None of those more so than Outer Wilds, in which a casual replay would literally let you skip to the end of the game with no tricks, because the entire game has no progression mechanics at all. Once you know how to finish the game, you can just do it.

edit:
I stand slightly corrected about Tunic.

Tunic absolutely does have tons of knowledge based progression. You can skip through massive chunks of the game simply because you have knowledge the game withheld from you. As you collect manual pages throughout the game you learn new mechanics that have always been there from the start, you simply didn't know how to access them. A big example of this is accessing the hub, which is a massive game changing discovery halfway through the game that you can access in the first 60 seconds.

Lots of knowledge-based progression, sure, but not "render the gameplay redundant" levels of knowledge-based progression. Still, I retract my statement that it shouldn't be on the list.

YYEEAAAAAAHHHH outer wilds!!! FUCK that game just absolutely slaps, top tier experience.

Try Deathloop. It's actually a lot of fun once you get into it. Though the game will outright TELL you progression information every so often which can be annoying.

I did try it and what I played was really fun but once I left the first zone, after 5 minutes the entire game would slow to an unplayable crawl :(

Bit of a shill statement but Xbox + game pass is serious value if you can afford it.

I have used gamepass, though if you mean on an actual Xbox unfortunately I am too poor for that option :(

Probably not for everyone here but 'I was a Teenage Exocolonist' is one of the best games in that category I ever played. You feel the developer's love in every character and storyline and being able to have so many different outcomes really made it feel special.

I have it on my wishlist but I've put off buying it because I thought it was just a visual novel. I'll have to check it out now!

There's an interesting game that's kinda similar called minit or something 60 second* time limit to play a zelda game but you keep some progress iirc.

It's an itch thing.

That skyrim mod turned game umm forgotten city? might also count. Good shit.

Oh Minit! That was such a well done little game. It really lived up to its name in terms of length but that made sure it never let itself get stale. I'll have to check out The Forgotten City! I wrote it off because the other big Skyrim mod that's its own game, Enderal, just didn't mesh with me, but several people have recommended it now so I guess I'll have to give it a shot!

I love Celeste for this exact reason!

Is Celeste really knowledge-based? I thought it was muscle memory.

I only played it for like 15 minutes before realizing I don't have good reflexes.

There is a lot of muscle memory but what I'm saying is that you have access to every movement method from the start of the game.

That's not really what this meme is talking about.

Almost all games are about mastery in some way, in which you use knowledge to progress, or to make progression easier, but the games listed have knowledge as progression itself, which is different. Imagine if simply knowing how to perform the right jump let you skip straight from the first chapter to the final climb up the mountain, and furthermore that the game expects you to do precisely that, and that's the kind of thing this meme is about.

Hm, if so, then does Hypnospace Outlaw also count? That game has a lot of secrets and special programs that let you find hidden/unique stuff, and it's used to find crucial things in the final chapter, but most of them are already available right from the beginning if you know where to look, and the game is designed in a way where finding those early on is intentional for second-time players (either because it helps skip some chapters, or gives you useful upgrades sooner than you'd normally find them).

I have never played Hypnospace Outlaw, but it sounds like a solid maybe.

The Witness also falls into this category I think. I love these games as well

The worst thing I did to myself was watching a playthrough of The Witness on youtube instead of playing it myself. It's right up my alley and it's such a beautiful and clever game that I would have loved to experience myself. Good news though, if you love The Witness check out Taiji on steam! It's extremely similar in concept and gameplay, just in 2D instead!

Yeah, you're going to lose some wow factor when you realize a trick or game mechanic required for the puzzles, but I think it's still worth it (if you love puzzles anyway)

Thanks for the recommendation for Taiji, it really is very similar, looks like something I'd love to play :) I put it on my wishlist!

Lingo too! Gosh I wish I could forget Lingo and play through it again.

I experienced Lingo through my friend discord streaming their playthrough of it. It's an awesome game but my goodness did we have to have a thesaurus open for some of the puzzles! I definitely would recommend anyone reading this check it out though, it's incredibly unique! I'd say the closest game in terms of vibes is Antichamber, but with word puzzles.

Noita and Who's Lila? 🙏

Noita definitely cost me some sweat and tears.

Only some? You didn't even touched the quests then /j

I haven't played a lot but there was one time where I managed to get a few immunities and I was nearing 1k hp. Then chaotic polymorphine happened and I died in one shot.

Ah I remember all my friends raving about Who's Lila? a while ago, but I was too busy at the time to check it out! That's definitely something I'll be checking out!

You definitely have to check it out, it's one of the best game of the last years narratively speaking imo

Thanks for recommendations! Outer Wilds is phenomenal, and Obra Dinn was so-o satisfactory to complete.

Trying frantically to remember some recs too but nothing that fits exactly comes to mind except those already mentioned. Probably Cultist Simulator? Though it has frustrating moments where you seem to exhaust all available options and hit the wall without noticing some seemingly random option you have to try. Maybe also Sorcery! series — the more branches you try, the more complete picture of the world you get.

Cultist simulator was really cool, if a little esoteric (though I'm certain that was on purpose) and the new game Book of Hours looks extremely interesting too! Sorcery! is the second game here I've never heard of before, good reccs!

OP's image is pretty good but some recommendations posted are really stretching it specially the RPGs.

You aren't wrong but it's just people having fun recommending games they think are cool and I'm never going to turn that down

I have some suggestions that fit this category with varying degrees so I will include some justifications so you can decide if you want to include them in your own playlists

  • Her story/the stanley parable :: fit the category perfectly
  • subnautica :: Survival game with heavy exploration. Unusually for this genre it has a story which you can only progress by finding some clues and piecing them together
  • the witness :: This one has been mentioned already but I just wanted to reiterate that although it may seem like a simple puzzle game it's a good fit for this category. Here's an excellent analysis of it that you can watch after playing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZokQov_aH0
  • The talos principle :: the main part of this game is just a puzzle game so it seemingly doesn't fit very well. However, along with those there are some characters which ask you some philosophical questions which you unintentionally end up mulling over while solving the puzzles. By the end of the game you have understood some things that can make the ending very meaningful and emotional.
  • antichamber/gorogoa/superliminal/baba is you :: Simple puzzle games but they are solved by lateral thinking where you're constantly pushing the boundaries and rules of the puzzle itself
  • into the breach :: rougelike tactics game. Someone else mentioned how roguelikes in general fit this category and this is my honorable mention
  • hacknet :: You are given some tools that can open some doors but you have to learn how to exploit those doors to open the remaining ones

I almost feel like you're describing a job.

I'm always having to learn new practical skills for work, and getting into things I know nothing about and having to learn them to be successful.

The difference is that the skills you learn from playing games usually are not transferable to the rest of your life. There's some exceptions to this but most of the stuff you learn from complex games are completely fabricated for the game and have very little bearing on real life.... Though, am argument can be made in many cases, such as kerbal. I haven't played kerbal, but I understand there's some reasonably accurate orbital mechanics and rocket science involved. This is just one fairly obvious example that I know of. Not to be confused with a comprehensive list of games with practical educational value.

For me though, I usually don't want to learn anything useful while playing a game, since that's basically what I do for work. So any game, like our example of kerbal will, in all likelihood, feel like more work to me, which is decidedly not the objective I'm going for by playing a game.

I dunno. Different games for different folks or whatever.

I don't think that's what they meant. More like where the game doesn't hold your hand or suddenly give you knowledge of things that you don't learn through playing. Like in outer wilds where the game really gives you almost nothing to direct you at first, you have to learn what's happening and how to progress. But once you know it, you could technically finish the whole game in only a few minutes as it's entirely deterministic and won't gate you from content just because you didn't do an arbitrary condition to reach it.

The whole soulsborne series

I was gonna say, Elden Ring is the epitome of this statement.

Dark Souls 1 if you really love discovery and connectivity.

you're joking if you think it isn't mimic tear and op weapon arts that get most of us through everything after leyndell. I didn't need to learn how to play to beat malania because blasphemous sword keeps her on naptime the entire fight.

But that's the whole point? U can be OP if you want, or set yourself up for the freedom to choose a challenge. That in my mind is true open world and I've never seen any other game that's done it to the same degree.

That is nothing like what OP is talking about. There's no amount of knowledge that means you could 1 try the entire game first go if you knew it.