So Microsoft is one of the most valuable companies in the entire world. They have a stranglehold on corporate America, power a huge the cloud infrastructure, hold one of the largest sources of telemetry/user data, and are the defacto standard of PC environments worldwide.
Why in the fuck do they need to pivot to ads? I’m genuinely curious. Even if they lost 50% of their entire business they would still be one of the most profitable companies in the world.
Because when you have shareholders, there's no such thing as "we're profitable enough". Shareholders always demand more. Ads means more profit, at least in the short term. Next quarter profits are all that matter to public companies.
It's obscene, but it's the way it is.
It's not just that they demand more, they demand more/faster growth all the time. It doesn't matter that the economy has slowed down to borderline recession, it doesn't matter that they pretty much captured all the market they can, they still need to make more and more money every quarter otherwise they're considered a failure even if they are one of the biggest companies in the world.
Because they were "leaving money on the table" instead of getting it for their shareholders.
the shareholders don't get that. the top managers, CEOs etc. get it. some of them may be shareholders as well, but that's not how they fill their pockets.
@SuperSynthia@dvdnet62 because once untamed capitalism sees a money spigot they can't help but wonder how wide it will open.
I think it’s the same reason games offer a cash shop for things you can get in-game. Sure they’re making billions but why not billions plus ad revenue? I don’t agree with the practice but the answer always comes back to money.
@SuperSynthia@dvdnet62 Because for capitalism, profit is not the end, only a means to the end. The end is to accumulate sufficient capital to absorb all competitors and achieve total control of markets.
Yea but like, their competitors, when it comes to operating systems are Apple, which isn’t anywhere near small enough to be obtainable by anyone and Linux and Linux-Derivatives, which are also unobtainable due to their open source nature.
@accideath The point isn't whether Microsoft will reach that end. The point is that like all capitalist enterprises it will forever strive to do so.
Not all of them. Only the big and successful ones
@accideath All of them. That is the definition of a capitalist enterprise.
Not every larger company is automatically evil, just because they exist within a capitalist market. A lot of them are, sure. At least to some extent. But there still are privately owned enterprises that do have a conscience.
Also, calling them "capitalist" enterprises seems redundant.
@accideath I'm calling them capitalist enterprises to emphasize that they are capitalist enterprises. They accumulate capital. That is what they are and defines what they do.
A capitalist enterprise does not decide it has enough and can retire and take up gardening. It is not a person. It does not have a conscience.
A privately owned enterprise can. Publicly traded ones can’t. A privately owned enterprise also doesn’t need to make more money, if the owner doesn’t want that. A publicly traded company that has to answer to its shareholders has to make more money and to keep growing to appease said shareholders. If you don’t have shareholders you don’t have to do anything like that. That doesn’t mean, of course, that any privately owned company is automatically good – many aren’t – but it does mean that they have the capability to not be evil.
@accideath We started by talking about Microsoft, and I was explaining that there's no such thing as "enough" profit for a capitalist enterprise.
There are many organizations that are not capitalist enterprises. There are small businesses and cooperatives where the owners deliberately keep profits low. The small business doesn't have a conscience; the owners may. And it leaves them vulnerable. Small businesses destroyed or absorbed by larger ones is the third oldest story in capitalism.
As long as we‘re in a capitalist market, which we are and probably will be for a while, any for-profit company, however small or big it is or however private or public it is, is a capitalist company. You have to be in order to make profit. At all. And yes, usually, the bigger they are, the worse they are. But not every for-profit company is evil, thus not every capitalist company is evil.
And businesses do have a conscience. It’s the sum of their owners‘ consciences.
And also, you do not need to be evil to be successful although it is probably easier.
@accideath No, an organization does not have a conscience. It is not the sum total of the consciences of its owners. It is not a collective person. It is an engine.
One of the reasons to be clear about this is that you can quite easily find people who believe that Microsoft, for instance, is doing good in the world. I used to work for Microsoft and met career Microsoft people who obviously sincerely believed in it.
You have to first understand how the engine actually works.
Would be nice if pivoting to ads caused them to lose 50% of their business.
Sadly it won’t.
Better question is "why not"?
I'd believe Google has a larger data collection as it's includes both google hardware and software products.
Google can also connnect the dots between an extreme amount of user data and services.
Isn't it obvious? Start Menu is being used by every windows user but is not generating any revenue
Serving ads will enable them to better support the platform and provide more advanced features. Ad supported version is better than making it a subscription like some third party apps have done. Start8 I think, basic copy of Microsoft's Start Menu but paid.
I'm learning more and more about Linux while using Linux Mint
It's pretty cool NGL
asdfasfasf
HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO TEACH YOU THIS LESSON OLD MAN
Every time.
Because this old man hasn't learnt the lesson...
We love a good call to arms, what more can be said
Although not the same, this has been going on for about two years now. Jensen Harris, a former MS engineer, criticized the ads as well as the design of the new Start Menu, over here: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1564399431545667585.html
Weren't they doing this as far back as windows 8?
It just highlights the downward spiral to user hostility becoming the standard. Pretty sad.
I have a feeling that this year is going to be the year of the Linux desktop.
If there is a recommendation that satisfies:
A nice looking UI with good fonts, and a clean interface.
The ability to run random Windows applications with minimal fuss.
All without needing to use the terminal, then that will likely win the battle.
Honestly Wine and Bottles are both pretty great at running windows programs these days, I wouldn’t worry to much about that so long as you check and make sure the critical software you need works.
A nice looking UI with good fonts, and a clean interface.
Pretty much anything beats Windows in that regard.
The ability to run random Windows applications with minimal fuss.
I mean if you REALLY can't find a FOSS alternative, Bottles has been extremely successful and easy for me...
All without needing to use the terminal
This is the biggest hangup for me. Even if there is a GUI, most instructions will send you into the terminal nonetheless.
Pretty much anything beats Windows in that regard
Fonts have looked like shit on Linux for years, if not decades. The poor UI and lack of polish has been a big problem in design communities for a long time, and to many it's one of the reasons why Linux is less favourable to Mac and Windows.
This is the biggest hangup for me. Even if there is a GUI, most instructions will send you into the terminal nonetheless.
For all the deserved shit that Windows gets, it "just works" without ever needing to touch config or a terminal. Until a Linux distro and window management system can get this part right, it's silly to call it a desktop replacement for the average person because it's not trying to be.
The poor UI and lack of polish has been a big problem in design communities for a long time
I dunno what to tell you except that it's not a problem now.
For all the deserved shit that Windows gets, it "just works" without ever needing to touch config or a terminal.
Most people don't need to use anything other than a browser, which works fine.
You think the average joe does browse this environment?
My guy, we are on lemmy. This ain't reddit.
My point exactly. I've watched people break down over the start menu changing, or being unable to do anything after switching to a Mac. If you think the average person will go through this shit you're mistaken...but I'd expect nothing less from Lemmy. It's a bit like Slashdot from 20 years ago...
I had to explain to users where to find the windows key or how to start a search in the start menu.
Many can't comprehend typing if there is not a textbox...
I don't see anything wrong with fonts or the UI in Linux rn. I had tried Linux multiple times back in the 2000s and early 2010s and you are right, it used to look bad compared to windows and macs.
But if I am being very honest here, Linux looks better than both windows and mac currently. Either GNOME or KDE Plasma easily look much better, just pick the one you prefer. There is also Cinnamon.
It is not hard at all to find the one you like. As I was installing Debian 12 there was a list with checkboxes to select the GUIs I wanted installed and I just installed all of them, then whenever you startup, on the login interface where you have to insert your password, there is a dropdown list to select the interface you want to use, and you can change back and forth between all of them as much as you want, this is so much better than windows by itself (if you want to have options to change the look of windows that is a lot more work, Linux on the other hand has a bunch of well tested, trustworthy and cohesive interfaces ready to go, you just select them on a list.
For me I like GNOME better, thousand times prettier than windows 10 that I was using before. Most people seem to prefer KDE Plasma tho. Just have a look at them, ain't no way you will come out thinking they lack anything compared to windows.
Just get over it and learn
I also have to use terminal in Windows, and up until recently it was an awful useless terminal too
This already exists lol
Prove it.
Elementary, Zorin?
Not really my place to prove it. Perhaps try something that isn't Windows and you'll see how much it truly does suck ass.
My daily drivers are MacOS and Fedora (with Windows on my Surface Book), but I'm a software engineer, not the average person.
I would love for Linux on the desktop to be viable for the average person, but there isn't really a built-in option that can beat Windows at what it's good at, and that's backwards compatibility, and a clean interface that users know. The attitude of "well, Linux is just better" hasn't worked for decades, and it never will until there is a distro that prioritises that (hard) switch.
It's been the decade of Linux on the desktop for me
I don't think so
So maybe next year will be the year of the Linux desktop
I don’t know if Microsoft’s choices to drive windows into the ground are going to have an immediate impact on Linux adoption (though you certainly see some governments trialing Linux right now because of it) but in the medium term they basically demand that Linux increase in users by a massive amount.
I know business not gaming is where Microsoft sees the value of Windows (and there is wayyyyyy more money in selling software for business) but I think a strategic defeat is happening right now with the steam deck taking off and more broadly the association in computer nerd’s minds that windows is the operating system to stick with is essentially all but evaporated from the series of bogglingly condescending decisions Microsoft has made about the future development of windows.
They lost, this period will gone down as a historic unforced error of a tech company undermining the foundation of their profits to make a bit more profits in the near term. They could have kept linux gaming mostly a pipe dream indefinitely if they just made sure windows wasn’t ever tooooo shitty of an experience for gaming, but now the dam is broken and though it might not be a flood all it once, the people leaving windows are never coming back and the movement of users away from windows will erode the levee behind the dam, compromising Microsoft’s basic ability to hold on to users, for gaming or business.
It starts with a trickle, but before we know it in a blink of an eye that trickle is going to cut a channel and slips its fingers back under the dam and destabilize the entire thing, and then it will be a massive rush of users leaving that Microsoft can’t control at all because they ignored the issue until the process was way past a point of no return.
Last year was the year of the Linux desktop, but only for me personally.
Exactly why the Brazilian and German governments are switching to linux machines
And my houshold 😁
Ther is for sure a 2.5k line powershell script from someone totally trustworthy which fixes this issue though
The French National Police also use Linux machines with its modified Ubuntu distro Gendbuntu.
Plus, Russia uses Astra, based on vanilla Debian.
Not like Russia can legally nor want to be dependant on MS/american software.
Which distro are the Germans switching to?
Can't find out the flavor on any websites. It might be a custom one and I imagine sharing the info would be more of a security risk.
It won't be a security risk once it's in use, IT across Germany will know within days of deployment. It will almost definitely be a modified version of some probably well known Linux.
No sense in giving an adversary info on the distro before it's fully implemented though I imagine. (I would consider that a head-start even if they heavily modify a popular distro)
Giving the See👁️Aye advanced notice wouldn't be smart, no matter how they wanted to play it.
It won’t be a security risk once it’s in use
I agree
I don't think it really matters whether a potential adversary has a 'head start' all that much, security through obscurity doesn't work super well when it's going to be deployed to thousands of easily accessible devices anyway. It'd only just be a defense in depth, but even then meh. But it's neither here nor there, they'll do it whatever way they feel is best.
Basically all of social engineering is to get exactly what you're talking about, a "head start"
Go to their LinkedIn: does the head engineer have MySQL version X on his skills, resume, job description, etc? Maybe somebody even endorsed them for it? "Wow they are THE best database administrator"
Now you know who you need to hack for their database access AND what zero days to research.
ANY info will be an attack vector
Social engineering is to gain access circumventing downcode, not really "get a head start"...
Most attacks are entirely social engineering. You're not breaking into secure databases by pulling ridiculous zero day backdoors when it's much easier to convince an intern to download a file or give you access directly. These super involved attacks are state actors, and no amount of trying to hide what Linux version is being modified will do anything for you there.
State actors of course also use social engineering
Ultimately the point is hacking really doesn't involve the kind of subterfuge you're describing here in a way where " what Linux is it " matters at all. I mean, windows is used for secure systems across the world, it's hardly secretive.
Sorry, but i couldn't reupload the picture on my instance
Plenty of other places to upload images. I think catbox.moe is a popular one.
Thank you microsoft for doing bad changes to the windows operating system im sure linux users will enjoy this
The second Win 10 stops receiving security updates, it's Linux for me.
I remember people saying the same thing with Windows 7
Some people probably did the switch
I considered it before I switched from 7 to 10, but since 10 still makes it possible to create an offline account and disable most of the spyware and other bloat, I opted to stay with Windows for another generation of OS. 11 is different though, it's several steps too far into proprietary hell.
I think the same, Win10 is still "domesticable", because of this it will be the last Win I'll use, maybe in Octubre 2025 in dual boot with Linux, for local use. Win 11 is already beginning to take over the user's PC as its own and Win 12 probably only admitting apps from the MS Store, naturally most proprietary paid apps or free with ads or hidden costs (Free*)
I switched from Win7 to Linux, but you are right, few stuck to their guns on that threat. My only Windows machine now is a work laptop that I have to use for some tasks. Admittedly, even Win 10 is looking good now compared to Win11. MS is doing a bang up job as being consumer antagonists.
You can start the switch early to get used to it 😉
I've been dipping my toes into it over the years, I'm just not ready to make it my daily driver quite yet
Best way to make the switch is by immersion. I'd also like to add it's best to do it when you're not being forced on a timeline, and you have time to deal with it. All my personal machines made the jump 7 years ago and I don't regret it.
it was already full of ads on win10
Yeah, lol people forgot what ads are. News feeds, Xbox and other office apps you haven't bought yet, are also ads, just their own products.
I’ve used Linux on every PC except my gaming PC for years. This year I made the final leap because of decisions like this from Microsoft.
Very few games have failed to work, the ones that have are all from Epic and they fail because of their shitty anticheat software. The only other things I feel the lack of are paint.net and the Affinity apps.
How many PCs do you have, lol. And Gimp and Inkscape are pretty good art programs.
5 in use. Main Gaming PC, Laptop, Game server pc, media server PC, and another for testing things out. Whenever a family member upgrades I get the old one so most of these are pretty old.
I have gimp and other graphics tools, I also have a LOT of hours of use in the ones I mentioned so there are things I know how to do quickly in those programs but not in their counterparts.
EAC is now largely compatible with Linux, but devs have to enable support per game.
I recommend browsing protondb to see how (if) people have made games with anticheat work, you might need to change proton versions, add launch options etc.
It was Fortnite and Fall Guys, I’m not really missing them.
Fall guys works. I used to play it on my stem deck. Fortnite is notoriously busted though.
Pinta is a fork of an older version of paint.net: https://www.pinta-project.com/ I have no idea if it is any good. I just thought that this might solve your problem.
I have Pinta, it’s ok but lacks a lot of the plugins I used and hasn’t been too stable. The graphics editing thing is something that will,just take time for me to rework my workflows. Gimp is great, I’m just not used to it.
Cool. I just started testing Nobara
This is why Linux rules tbh, little to no rules what so ever in terms of customizing your desktop whilst also not having shit like this too like having so much bloat and constant ads, like telling you to install edge everytime whilst protecting your privacy too.
linux rules because it's the only os built for its users rather than some company stocks
BSD?
a rounding error on my part, sorry 😋
More seriously, I was thinking more of foss desktop environments and user programs (which are basically the same all over) than about the actual os - thanks for correcting me
🤫 we don't mention BSD out of reverence.
Haiku?
illumos!
Hmm does it support web browsers? And is it fully FOSS (except firmware and stuff like that)?
After looking a bit more it seems like illumos is mostly the kernel, and openIndiana is one of the maintained distros.
Also good, it does almost the same, but I think, for what I've seen, that the Optimizer is way more easy and intuitive to use and has some more features.
This looks like it is solving a different problem but also useful. If you are saying it is better to disable everything and keep the original start bar. I prefer disabling everything and keeping a consistent start bar style from yesteryear. Either way thanks for the link. I'll added it to my tool list!
I think that this betrays their plans: Windows will go "free with ads", with an ad-free version that is subscription only. That doesn't hurt their bottomline since the governments and companies of the western world will still go subscription in order to get support. The ones who don't have enough money for that (individuals, small countries/companies, small municipalities), they will go "free with ads". I mean, practically, Windows is free even right now. They have oem serial numbers that activate the OS for free, legally, to be reused. So why not make it profitable, it's their thinking. Also, on newer builds of Win11 you can't avoid logging in without an msn account.
That is the Trap. Pre-installed Windows is not free, you pay for it in the price of the PC, the same PC without OS is almost ~€100 cheaper. A lot of vendors offer now PC only with FreeDOS, where you can select to install Linux, paying only the CD or USB or install Windows, paying it's license (€100-120).
Aight time to try and learn Linux for the 10th time and see if someone without strong console knowledge can use one now.
If you just want to browse the web and edit work documents you have nothing to fear.
If you just want a game and don't want to be too awfully picky about what you're playing you have nothing to fear
If you want to play anti-cheap games and host docker components you're going to have to do a little console here and there.
If you want to stream to YouTube and twitch, You're probably not going to have as much of a good time. You can still do it but there's work and compromises involved.
Streaming is practically plug-and-play, at least on my installs.
OBS background removal in Linux is bad.
In about half a dozen distros VFL does not work out of the box for OBS.
If you flat pack your OBS and don't do it exactly right with all the plugins at once, the plugin sandbox causes issues in OBS.
If you're running an OBS bot camera things get extra spicy.
In most cases high color support is not allowed.
If you're trying to do stream Deck stuff that can be an issue.
Don't get me wrong I'm glad it wasn't a big deal for you but for your average person coming in complaining that terminals are too much, they might be in for a less than stellar experience.
Cheers, I'll give it a go. Unfortunately I'll have to navigate my way through the Denuvo BS that Capcom loves shoving down our throats.
On the plus side I've been using the libreoffice suite and frankly speaking it's more or less comparable to what Windows offers for my needs. Their excel equivalent feels really jank though.
I've been using it for a few months now and only rarely I used console and it was just to paste some commands for something. So yeah, I don't think that you really need to know howbto use console if you don't need to do anything that specifically needs it.
Rarely is still too much for me.
If I do regular joe stuff, I don't want to be required to go into the terminal.
You shouldn't have to.
I live near exclusively in the console because it's my work and I love it, it's WAY more efficient than the GUI, but last time I actually NEEDED the console? I can't remember, honestly.
Also are you trying to say you never needed to figure something out on windows? Granted, I don't read much about it because fuck Windows, but I remember windows Registry headaches, is that still a thing? Just copy paste these base64 codes in the registry in these UUID keys, which literally would be impossible to learn, and it will fix it, super easy!
At least not for the regular joe stuff I do.
Obviously I tinker with my install and am not shy about reverting to a backup if I know it will be highly intrusive.
For the not so regular joe stuff close to the pro-sumer region you probably will have to research just about anything if you want to achieve something.
You have to learn a little for any task, so people saying that they don't want to learn something is a bit weird.
Linux really isn't more complicated than windows. Actually, after 25 years of Linux desktop, looking at windows it's frustrating complication after complication.
I am not desinterested to learn.
It just doesnt make sense to always have a need to enter the CLI for stuff regular users want to do.
Let the power toys be under the hood, no problem with that. But the regular folks don't even grasp the idea to find out how to change the IP of their regular windows PC for something they want.
Linux is currently developed by tech enthusiasts for mostly tech enthusiasts. Who tells the (by the way awesome) maintainers to stop and think what they develop in that particular way?
Even a group of maintainers might fall into the trap to develop something in such a way that it overwhelms the regular user.
IMO what it needs is resiliency against those users and more aim to make it idiot proof (for them) and make it more an actual daily driver that first has a GUI for the most common tools and then the CLI if needed
looking at windows it's frustrating complication after complication.
Tell that a Windows admin and that admin might say the same about you and your OS.
In the end, everyones wants it their way.
I had to often look up how to do stuff on windows because of it's trash UX so it's an absolute W for me. But I can understand that terminal may look too scary/complicated to some ppl.
Oh Windows is certainly not exempt from the issue. Not at all.
Personally I don't have any issue with the terminal but sometimes I am totally not in the mood to research yet another time why or how to run anything.
Also I prefer Word way too much over Libre/OpenOffice.
Only if they had a word-like theme and translation to achieve what I want in a word-like behaviour it could tempt me to switch the tools.
Ye, seems fair. In my case I just couldn't bear with windows anymore and switched.
Maybe maybe for me.
For now I am content with Linux debian as my NAS/server OS and Windows as the user OS.
It is called onlyoffice
Microsoft: how can we get even more money while enraging everyone?
I stopped using Windows in 2008 (juggling between a mixture of Linux and Mac OS). One of the reasons, is that at that time I thought Windows was legitimately a mess.
Over time, I thought it got a bit better when seeing it on friends's computers.
Due to laziness, Windows 11 got installed on my office computer (which I use 1% of my time) and I thought it was honestly pretty good (as in, I never thought about switching back, but it was fine to use it when necessary).
Now that they plug in ads, I'll certainly want to switch back /s
This is pretty much how you destroy a good product. Hello Linux!
This is the best summary I could come up with:
The software maker will use the Recommended section of the Start menu, which usually shows file recommendations, to suggest apps from the Microsoft Store.
“This will appear only for Windows Insiders in the Beta Channel in the US and will not apply to commercial devices (devices managed by organizations),” says Microsoft in a blog post.
The app promotions can be disabled in the Settings section of Windows 11, but it appears that Microsoft will enable these by default.
Microsoft is seeking feedback on the changes, so it’s possible the company could decide to ditch these ads in development builds of Windows 11 if there’s enough feedback that suggests they’re not going to be a popular addition.
Microsoft started testing ads inside the File Explorer of Windows 11 last year before disabling the experiment in beta versions of Windows 11.
Microsoft has been experimenting with ads inside Windows for more than 10 years.
The original article contains 222 words, the summary contains 152 words. Saved 32%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
I keep seeing headlines like this all the time. I'm over here like "This has already been a thing for years". Whenever I'd setup a win10 pc for someone, I'd have to clean the ads out of the start menu as part of the setup. So I ask again, how is this any different from the bullshit we're already dealing with?
It's like they want to go out of business
Maybe this is why you can't have a toolbar on the taskbar, to force you into the start menu more.
The wierd part is, if i think about my star menu usage in win10, there hardly is one. The important programs are on the task bar. The Startmenu isn't as much needed as used to be. Still sucks though.
i'm daily driving mint for a month now and i appreciate i did
If Microsoft does that I'm wiping out my laptop and going back to Linux*
* only reason I moved away is I bought a new laptop to replace my 2010 Mac mini that ran LinuxMint, and the laptop came preloaded with Windows 11 and I decided to just keep using it as-is as I liked the UI.
Fun fact: it is not an entirely new idea. Microsoft did something similar with Active Desktop in Windows 98 but was later removed.
Advertising is a goddamn disease.
I coincidentally installed Linux Mint today and I'm not going back.
I know linux is likely the better option here, but for me I have two words...
So Microsoft is one of the most valuable companies in the entire world. They have a stranglehold on corporate America, power a huge the cloud infrastructure, hold one of the largest sources of telemetry/user data, and are the defacto standard of PC environments worldwide.
Why in the fuck do they need to pivot to ads? I’m genuinely curious. Even if they lost 50% of their entire business they would still be one of the most profitable companies in the world.
Because when you have shareholders, there's no such thing as "we're profitable enough". Shareholders always demand more. Ads means more profit, at least in the short term. Next quarter profits are all that matter to public companies.
It's obscene, but it's the way it is.
It's not just that they demand more, they demand more/faster growth all the time. It doesn't matter that the economy has slowed down to borderline recession, it doesn't matter that they pretty much captured all the market they can, they still need to make more and more money every quarter otherwise they're considered a failure even if they are one of the biggest companies in the world.
Because they were "leaving money on the table" instead of getting it for their shareholders.
the shareholders don't get that. the top managers, CEOs etc. get it. some of them may be shareholders as well, but that's not how they fill their pockets.
@SuperSynthia @dvdnet62 because once untamed capitalism sees a money spigot they can't help but wonder how wide it will open.
I think it’s the same reason games offer a cash shop for things you can get in-game. Sure they’re making billions but why not billions plus ad revenue? I don’t agree with the practice but the answer always comes back to money.
@SuperSynthia @dvdnet62 Because for capitalism, profit is not the end, only a means to the end. The end is to accumulate sufficient capital to absorb all competitors and achieve total control of markets.
Yea but like, their competitors, when it comes to operating systems are Apple, which isn’t anywhere near small enough to be obtainable by anyone and Linux and Linux-Derivatives, which are also unobtainable due to their open source nature.
@accideath The point isn't whether Microsoft will reach that end. The point is that like all capitalist enterprises it will forever strive to do so.
Not all of them. Only the big and successful ones
@accideath All of them. That is the definition of a capitalist enterprise.
Not every larger company is automatically evil, just because they exist within a capitalist market. A lot of them are, sure. At least to some extent. But there still are privately owned enterprises that do have a conscience.
Also, calling them "capitalist" enterprises seems redundant.
@accideath I'm calling them capitalist enterprises to emphasize that they are capitalist enterprises. They accumulate capital. That is what they are and defines what they do.
A capitalist enterprise does not decide it has enough and can retire and take up gardening. It is not a person. It does not have a conscience.
A privately owned enterprise can. Publicly traded ones can’t. A privately owned enterprise also doesn’t need to make more money, if the owner doesn’t want that. A publicly traded company that has to answer to its shareholders has to make more money and to keep growing to appease said shareholders. If you don’t have shareholders you don’t have to do anything like that. That doesn’t mean, of course, that any privately owned company is automatically good – many aren’t – but it does mean that they have the capability to not be evil.
@accideath We started by talking about Microsoft, and I was explaining that there's no such thing as "enough" profit for a capitalist enterprise.
There are many organizations that are not capitalist enterprises. There are small businesses and cooperatives where the owners deliberately keep profits low. The small business doesn't have a conscience; the owners may. And it leaves them vulnerable. Small businesses destroyed or absorbed by larger ones is the third oldest story in capitalism.
As long as we‘re in a capitalist market, which we are and probably will be for a while, any for-profit company, however small or big it is or however private or public it is, is a capitalist company. You have to be in order to make profit. At all. And yes, usually, the bigger they are, the worse they are. But not every for-profit company is evil, thus not every capitalist company is evil.
And businesses do have a conscience. It’s the sum of their owners‘ consciences.
And also, you do not need to be evil to be successful although it is probably easier.
@accideath No, an organization does not have a conscience. It is not the sum total of the consciences of its owners. It is not a collective person. It is an engine.
One of the reasons to be clear about this is that you can quite easily find people who believe that Microsoft, for instance, is doing good in the world. I used to work for Microsoft and met career Microsoft people who obviously sincerely believed in it.
You have to first understand how the engine actually works.
Would be nice if pivoting to ads caused them to lose 50% of their business.
Sadly it won’t.
Better question is "why not"?
I'd believe Google has a larger data collection as it's includes both google hardware and software products.
Google can also connnect the dots between an extreme amount of user data and services.
@SuperSynthia @dvdnet62 I'll explain in two very simple words.
MOAR MONIES
@SuperSynthia @dvdnet62 Because capitalism demands infinite growth.
Isn't it obvious? Start Menu is being used by every windows user but is not generating any revenue Serving ads will enable them to better support the platform and provide more advanced features. Ad supported version is better than making it a subscription like some third party apps have done. Start8 I think, basic copy of Microsoft's Start Menu but paid.
Cool
I'm learning more and more about Linux while using Linux Mint
It's pretty cool NGL
asdfasfasf
HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO TEACH YOU THIS LESSON OLD MAN
Every time.
Because this old man hasn't learnt the lesson...
We love a good call to arms, what more can be said
Although not the same, this has been going on for about two years now. Jensen Harris, a former MS engineer, criticized the ads as well as the design of the new Start Menu, over here: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1564399431545667585.html
Weren't they doing this as far back as windows 8?
It just highlights the downward spiral to user hostility becoming the standard. Pretty sad.
I have a feeling that this year is going to be the year of the Linux desktop.
If there is a recommendation that satisfies:
All without needing to use the terminal, then that will likely win the battle.
Honestly Wine and Bottles are both pretty great at running windows programs these days, I wouldn’t worry to much about that so long as you check and make sure the critical software you need works.
Pretty much anything beats Windows in that regard.
I mean if you REALLY can't find a FOSS alternative, Bottles has been extremely successful and easy for me...
This is the biggest hangup for me. Even if there is a GUI, most instructions will send you into the terminal nonetheless.
Fonts have looked like shit on Linux for years, if not decades. The poor UI and lack of polish has been a big problem in design communities for a long time, and to many it's one of the reasons why Linux is less favourable to Mac and Windows.
For all the deserved shit that Windows gets, it "just works" without ever needing to touch config or a terminal. Until a Linux distro and window management system can get this part right, it's silly to call it a desktop replacement for the average person because it's not trying to be.
I dunno what to tell you except that it's not a problem now.
Most people don't need to use anything other than a browser, which works fine.
You think the average joe does browse this environment?
My guy, we are on lemmy. This ain't reddit.
My point exactly. I've watched people break down over the start menu changing, or being unable to do anything after switching to a Mac. If you think the average person will go through this shit you're mistaken...but I'd expect nothing less from Lemmy. It's a bit like Slashdot from 20 years ago...
I had to explain to users where to find the windows key or how to start a search in the start menu.
Many can't comprehend typing if there is not a textbox...
I don't see anything wrong with fonts or the UI in Linux rn. I had tried Linux multiple times back in the 2000s and early 2010s and you are right, it used to look bad compared to windows and macs.
But if I am being very honest here, Linux looks better than both windows and mac currently. Either GNOME or KDE Plasma easily look much better, just pick the one you prefer. There is also Cinnamon.
It is not hard at all to find the one you like. As I was installing Debian 12 there was a list with checkboxes to select the GUIs I wanted installed and I just installed all of them, then whenever you startup, on the login interface where you have to insert your password, there is a dropdown list to select the interface you want to use, and you can change back and forth between all of them as much as you want, this is so much better than windows by itself (if you want to have options to change the look of windows that is a lot more work, Linux on the other hand has a bunch of well tested, trustworthy and cohesive interfaces ready to go, you just select them on a list.
For me I like GNOME better, thousand times prettier than windows 10 that I was using before. Most people seem to prefer KDE Plasma tho. Just have a look at them, ain't no way you will come out thinking they lack anything compared to windows.
Just get over it and learn
I also have to use terminal in Windows, and up until recently it was an awful useless terminal too
This already exists lol
Prove it.
Elementary, Zorin?
Not really my place to prove it. Perhaps try something that isn't Windows and you'll see how much it truly does suck ass.
My daily drivers are MacOS and Fedora (with Windows on my Surface Book), but I'm a software engineer, not the average person.
I would love for Linux on the desktop to be viable for the average person, but there isn't really a built-in option that can beat Windows at what it's good at, and that's backwards compatibility, and a clean interface that users know. The attitude of "well, Linux is just better" hasn't worked for decades, and it never will until there is a distro that prioritises that (hard) switch.
It's been the decade of Linux on the desktop for me
I don't think so
So maybe next year will be the year of the Linux desktop
I don’t know if Microsoft’s choices to drive windows into the ground are going to have an immediate impact on Linux adoption (though you certainly see some governments trialing Linux right now because of it) but in the medium term they basically demand that Linux increase in users by a massive amount.
I know business not gaming is where Microsoft sees the value of Windows (and there is wayyyyyy more money in selling software for business) but I think a strategic defeat is happening right now with the steam deck taking off and more broadly the association in computer nerd’s minds that windows is the operating system to stick with is essentially all but evaporated from the series of bogglingly condescending decisions Microsoft has made about the future development of windows.
They lost, this period will gone down as a historic unforced error of a tech company undermining the foundation of their profits to make a bit more profits in the near term. They could have kept linux gaming mostly a pipe dream indefinitely if they just made sure windows wasn’t ever tooooo shitty of an experience for gaming, but now the dam is broken and though it might not be a flood all it once, the people leaving windows are never coming back and the movement of users away from windows will erode the levee behind the dam, compromising Microsoft’s basic ability to hold on to users, for gaming or business.
It starts with a trickle, but before we know it in a blink of an eye that trickle is going to cut a channel and slips its fingers back under the dam and destabilize the entire thing, and then it will be a massive rush of users leaving that Microsoft can’t control at all because they ignored the issue until the process was way past a point of no return.
Last year was the year of the Linux desktop, but only for me personally.
Exactly why the Brazilian and German governments are switching to linux machines
And my houshold 😁
Ther is for sure a 2.5k line powershell script from someone totally trustworthy which fixes this issue though
The French National Police also use Linux machines with its modified Ubuntu distro Gendbuntu.
Plus, Russia uses Astra, based on vanilla Debian.
Not like Russia can legally nor want to be dependant on MS/american software.
Which distro are the Germans switching to?
Can't find out the flavor on any websites. It might be a custom one and I imagine sharing the info would be more of a security risk.
It won't be a security risk once it's in use, IT across Germany will know within days of deployment. It will almost definitely be a modified version of some probably well known Linux.
No sense in giving an adversary info on the distro before it's fully implemented though I imagine. (I would consider that a head-start even if they heavily modify a popular distro)
Giving the See👁️Aye advanced notice wouldn't be smart, no matter how they wanted to play it.
I agree
I don't think it really matters whether a potential adversary has a 'head start' all that much, security through obscurity doesn't work super well when it's going to be deployed to thousands of easily accessible devices anyway. It'd only just be a defense in depth, but even then meh. But it's neither here nor there, they'll do it whatever way they feel is best.
Basically all of social engineering is to get exactly what you're talking about, a "head start"
Go to their LinkedIn: does the head engineer have MySQL version X on his skills, resume, job description, etc? Maybe somebody even endorsed them for it? "Wow they are THE best database administrator"
Now you know who you need to hack for their database access AND what zero days to research.
ANY info will be an attack vector
Social engineering is to gain access circumventing downcode, not really "get a head start"...
Most attacks are entirely social engineering. You're not breaking into secure databases by pulling ridiculous zero day backdoors when it's much easier to convince an intern to download a file or give you access directly. These super involved attacks are state actors, and no amount of trying to hide what Linux version is being modified will do anything for you there.
State actors of course also use social engineering
Ultimately the point is hacking really doesn't involve the kind of subterfuge you're describing here in a way where " what Linux is it " matters at all. I mean, windows is used for secure systems across the world, it's hardly secretive.
If they could inject the ad's into your veins, they would.
Good thing I use Ubuntu for >90% of my computing now.
This is amusing. They might as well replace the wallpaper with an ad.
They have on the lockscreen already, so not too far off
Done already, they are ahead of you guys Pic
I can't see Reddit anymore
Sorry, but i couldn't reupload the picture on my instance
Plenty of other places to upload images. I think catbox.moe is a popular one.
Thank you microsoft for doing bad changes to the windows operating system im sure linux users will enjoy this
The second Win 10 stops receiving security updates, it's Linux for me.
I remember people saying the same thing with Windows 7
Some people probably did the switch
I considered it before I switched from 7 to 10, but since 10 still makes it possible to create an offline account and disable most of the spyware and other bloat, I opted to stay with Windows for another generation of OS. 11 is different though, it's several steps too far into proprietary hell.
I think the same, Win10 is still "domesticable", because of this it will be the last Win I'll use, maybe in Octubre 2025 in dual boot with Linux, for local use. Win 11 is already beginning to take over the user's PC as its own and Win 12 probably only admitting apps from the MS Store, naturally most proprietary paid apps or free with ads or hidden costs (Free*)
I switched from Win7 to Linux, but you are right, few stuck to their guns on that threat. My only Windows machine now is a work laptop that I have to use for some tasks. Admittedly, even Win 10 is looking good now compared to Win11. MS is doing a bang up job as being consumer antagonists.
You can start the switch early to get used to it 😉
I've been dipping my toes into it over the years, I'm just not ready to make it my daily driver quite yet
Best way to make the switch is by immersion. I'd also like to add it's best to do it when you're not being forced on a timeline, and you have time to deal with it. All my personal machines made the jump 7 years ago and I don't regret it.
it was already full of ads on win10
Yeah, lol people forgot what ads are. News feeds, Xbox and other office apps you haven't bought yet, are also ads, just their own products.
Killing myself one day🤦♂️
MESSAGE FOR EVERYONE : Just switch to Linux 😃
Why yourself? Let M$ kill itself.
Anti Commercial-AI license
You're right 😂
I’ve used Linux on every PC except my gaming PC for years. This year I made the final leap because of decisions like this from Microsoft.
Very few games have failed to work, the ones that have are all from Epic and they fail because of their shitty anticheat software. The only other things I feel the lack of are paint.net and the Affinity apps.
How many PCs do you have, lol. And Gimp and Inkscape are pretty good art programs.
5 in use. Main Gaming PC, Laptop, Game server pc, media server PC, and another for testing things out. Whenever a family member upgrades I get the old one so most of these are pretty old.
I have gimp and other graphics tools, I also have a LOT of hours of use in the ones I mentioned so there are things I know how to do quickly in those programs but not in their counterparts.
EAC is now largely compatible with Linux, but devs have to enable support per game.
I recommend browsing protondb to see how (if) people have made games with anticheat work, you might need to change proton versions, add launch options etc.
It was Fortnite and Fall Guys, I’m not really missing them.
Fall guys works. I used to play it on my stem deck. Fortnite is notoriously busted though.
Pinta is a fork of an older version of paint.net: https://www.pinta-project.com/ I have no idea if it is any good. I just thought that this might solve your problem.
I have Pinta, it’s ok but lacks a lot of the plugins I used and hasn’t been too stable. The graphics editing thing is something that will,just take time for me to rework my workflows. Gimp is great, I’m just not used to it.
Cool. I just started testing Nobara
This is why Linux rules tbh, little to no rules what so ever in terms of customizing your desktop whilst also not having shit like this too like having so much bloat and constant ads, like telling you to install edge everytime whilst protecting your privacy too.
linux rules because it's the only os built for its users rather than some company stocks
BSD?
a rounding error on my part, sorry 😋
More seriously, I was thinking more of foss desktop environments and user programs (which are basically the same all over) than about the actual os - thanks for correcting me
🤫 we don't mention BSD out of reverence.
Haiku?
illumos!
Hmm does it support web browsers? And is it fully FOSS (except firmware and stuff like that)?
After looking a bit more it seems like illumos is mostly the kernel, and openIndiana is one of the maintained distros.
Absolutely!
It's time to switch.
If you have to stay on windows check out: https://github.com/Open-Shell/Open-Shell-Menu
I have been using it on my work laptop over a year. Nice piece of software 👍️
Better
https://github.com/hellzerg/optimizer/blob/master/README.md
This or CTT's Winutil? Which is better?
Also good, it does almost the same, but I think, for what I've seen, that the Optimizer is way more easy and intuitive to use and has some more features.
This looks like it is solving a different problem but also useful. If you are saying it is better to disable everything and keep the original start bar. I prefer disabling everything and keeping a consistent start bar style from yesteryear. Either way thanks for the link. I'll added it to my tool list!
I think that this betrays their plans: Windows will go "free with ads", with an ad-free version that is subscription only. That doesn't hurt their bottomline since the governments and companies of the western world will still go subscription in order to get support. The ones who don't have enough money for that (individuals, small countries/companies, small municipalities), they will go "free with ads". I mean, practically, Windows is free even right now. They have oem serial numbers that activate the OS for free, legally, to be reused. So why not make it profitable, it's their thinking. Also, on newer builds of Win11 you can't avoid logging in without an msn account.
That is the Trap. Pre-installed Windows is not free, you pay for it in the price of the PC, the same PC without OS is almost ~€100 cheaper. A lot of vendors offer now PC only with FreeDOS, where you can select to install Linux, paying only the CD or USB or install Windows, paying it's license (€100-120).
Aight time to try and learn Linux for the 10th time and see if someone without strong console knowledge can use one now.
If you just want to browse the web and edit work documents you have nothing to fear.
If you just want a game and don't want to be too awfully picky about what you're playing you have nothing to fear
If you want to play anti-cheap games and host docker components you're going to have to do a little console here and there.
If you want to stream to YouTube and twitch, You're probably not going to have as much of a good time. You can still do it but there's work and compromises involved.
Streaming is practically plug-and-play, at least on my installs.
OBS background removal in Linux is bad.
In about half a dozen distros VFL does not work out of the box for OBS.
If you flat pack your OBS and don't do it exactly right with all the plugins at once, the plugin sandbox causes issues in OBS.
If you're running an OBS bot camera things get extra spicy.
In most cases high color support is not allowed.
If you're trying to do stream Deck stuff that can be an issue.
Don't get me wrong I'm glad it wasn't a big deal for you but for your average person coming in complaining that terminals are too much, they might be in for a less than stellar experience.
Cheers, I'll give it a go. Unfortunately I'll have to navigate my way through the Denuvo BS that Capcom loves shoving down our throats.
On the plus side I've been using the libreoffice suite and frankly speaking it's more or less comparable to what Windows offers for my needs. Their excel equivalent feels really jank though.
I've been using it for a few months now and only rarely I used console and it was just to paste some commands for something. So yeah, I don't think that you really need to know howbto use console if you don't need to do anything that specifically needs it.
Rarely is still too much for me.
If I do regular joe stuff, I don't want to be required to go into the terminal.
You shouldn't have to.
I live near exclusively in the console because it's my work and I love it, it's WAY more efficient than the GUI, but last time I actually NEEDED the console? I can't remember, honestly.
Also are you trying to say you never needed to figure something out on windows? Granted, I don't read much about it because fuck Windows, but I remember windows Registry headaches, is that still a thing? Just copy paste these base64 codes in the registry in these UUID keys, which literally would be impossible to learn, and it will fix it, super easy!
At least not for the regular joe stuff I do.
Obviously I tinker with my install and am not shy about reverting to a backup if I know it will be highly intrusive.
For the not so regular joe stuff close to the pro-sumer region you probably will have to research just about anything if you want to achieve something.
You have to learn a little for any task, so people saying that they don't want to learn something is a bit weird.
Linux really isn't more complicated than windows. Actually, after 25 years of Linux desktop, looking at windows it's frustrating complication after complication.
I am not desinterested to learn.
It just doesnt make sense to always have a need to enter the CLI for stuff regular users want to do.
Let the power toys be under the hood, no problem with that. But the regular folks don't even grasp the idea to find out how to change the IP of their regular windows PC for something they want.
Linux is currently developed by tech enthusiasts for mostly tech enthusiasts. Who tells the (by the way awesome) maintainers to stop and think what they develop in that particular way?
Even a group of maintainers might fall into the trap to develop something in such a way that it overwhelms the regular user.
IMO what it needs is resiliency against those users and more aim to make it idiot proof (for them) and make it more an actual daily driver that first has a GUI for the most common tools and then the CLI if needed
Tell that a Windows admin and that admin might say the same about you and your OS.
In the end, everyones wants it their way.
I had to often look up how to do stuff on windows because of it's trash UX so it's an absolute W for me. But I can understand that terminal may look too scary/complicated to some ppl.
Oh Windows is certainly not exempt from the issue. Not at all.
Personally I don't have any issue with the terminal but sometimes I am totally not in the mood to research yet another time why or how to run anything.
Also I prefer Word way too much over Libre/OpenOffice.
Only if they had a word-like theme and translation to achieve what I want in a word-like behaviour it could tempt me to switch the tools.
Ye, seems fair. In my case I just couldn't bear with windows anymore and switched.
Maybe maybe for me.
For now I am content with Linux debian as my NAS/server OS and Windows as the user OS.
It is called onlyoffice
Microsoft: how can we get even more money while enraging everyone?
I stopped using Windows in 2008 (juggling between a mixture of Linux and Mac OS). One of the reasons, is that at that time I thought Windows was legitimately a mess.
Over time, I thought it got a bit better when seeing it on friends's computers.
Due to laziness, Windows 11 got installed on my office computer (which I use 1% of my time) and I thought it was honestly pretty good (as in, I never thought about switching back, but it was fine to use it when necessary).
Now that they plug in ads, I'll certainly want to switch back /s
This is pretty much how you destroy a good product. Hello Linux!
This is the best summary I could come up with:
The software maker will use the Recommended section of the Start menu, which usually shows file recommendations, to suggest apps from the Microsoft Store.
“This will appear only for Windows Insiders in the Beta Channel in the US and will not apply to commercial devices (devices managed by organizations),” says Microsoft in a blog post.
The app promotions can be disabled in the Settings section of Windows 11, but it appears that Microsoft will enable these by default.
Microsoft is seeking feedback on the changes, so it’s possible the company could decide to ditch these ads in development builds of Windows 11 if there’s enough feedback that suggests they’re not going to be a popular addition.
Microsoft started testing ads inside the File Explorer of Windows 11 last year before disabling the experiment in beta versions of Windows 11.
Microsoft has been experimenting with ads inside Windows for more than 10 years.
The original article contains 222 words, the summary contains 152 words. Saved 32%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
I keep seeing headlines like this all the time. I'm over here like "This has already been a thing for years". Whenever I'd setup a win10 pc for someone, I'd have to clean the ads out of the start menu as part of the setup. So I ask again, how is this any different from the bullshit we're already dealing with?
It's like they want to go out of business
Maybe this is why you can't have a toolbar on the taskbar, to force you into the start menu more.
The wierd part is, if i think about my star menu usage in win10, there hardly is one. The important programs are on the task bar. The Startmenu isn't as much needed as used to be. Still sucks though.
i'm daily driving mint for a month now and i appreciate i did
If Microsoft does that I'm wiping out my laptop and going back to Linux*
* only reason I moved away is I bought a new laptop to replace my 2010 Mac mini that ran LinuxMint, and the laptop came preloaded with Windows 11 and I decided to just keep using it as-is as I liked the UI.
Fun fact: it is not an entirely new idea. Microsoft did something similar with Active Desktop in Windows 98 but was later removed.
Advertising is a goddamn disease.
I coincidentally installed Linux Mint today and I'm not going back.
I know linux is likely the better option here, but for me I have two words...
Winaero Tweaker