One of My strongest memories is watching a documentary where they claimed dogs don't dream, and my dogs directly in front of the TV making little sleep barks and moving legs deep into some dream.
Let's be honest we are animals and the rest aren't all that far behind us.
I can tell that even my pet gerbils have dreams. Man I'd love to know what they're dreaming of. They've effectively spent their entire lives inside that glass terrarium so I can't imagine there being a huge variety of novel experiences to dream of.
IIUC during REM sleep your body loses muscle tone. And that's the phase of sleep where dream happens. Which means, at least in humans, when you twitch in sleep, you aren't dreaming. Same thing when someone is sleepwalking.
Yeah I understand but I'm talking about an inner monologue, not about dreaming..
Dreaming definetly involves quite deep thoughts imo.
I just found it absolutely mad these science guys on TV where claiming dogs don't dream, I mean it's obviously nonsense to anyone who has ever had a dog how the hell do they get to their nonsense conclusions
Are we even sure everyone has one of those? Not everyone has a mind's eye.
Not everyone has an inner monologue
What's driving me wild about these claims is I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE FUCK PEOPLE EVEN MEAN with "inner monologue". And none of those stupid articles seems to bother to first and foremost try to define what the fuck they are writing about. A definition of the word....
Apparently some people actually hear a voice and see things in their mind.
Something that I think trips people up when trying to understand what it's like to have an inner monologue or to visualize things in your mind is that we don't really have better words for the experience.
I have an inner monologue, and saying that I "hear" a voice in my head when I'm thinking about something isn't exactly the way I would choose to describe it, there's just no simpler way to really put it.
It's sort of like there are words "happening" in my head. As I think through something my brain is putting the thoughts and concepts together with words describing those thoughts. If I'm, for example, deciding what color to paint something, while I'm thinking through the possibilities, my brain is just sort of conjuring up sentences that match my thoughts like "if I paint it red, it will look funny, so I'll paint it blue instead, yeah, that's what I'll do, alright gotta go to the store for blue paint." There's not a literal voice making noises in my head that I hear the same way I hear someone standing in front of me talking, but I intuitively know what the voice speaking those imaginary words would sound like, and the thoughts and ideas I have that way kind of get processed in my brain in a similar way to how it would absorb ideas from someone explaining something to me verbally.
Similarly when I say I can "see" something in my head, if I picture, let's say a car, there's not a literal car floating in my visual field somewhere like some kind of voluntary hallucination. It's sort of like having a complete intuitive understanding of exactly what that car looks like, you know what it looks like from all angles, with the doors open and closed, what it looks like in motion and parked, etc. without actually having to go look at it, open the doors, see it being driven around, etc. and all of that information is getting processed though the same or similar parts of my brain that would process actually looking at the car.
I like to use the analogy of your brain as a computer. When you're actually hearing or seeing something it's like you have a microphone or webcam pointed at something feeding into the computer, and having it output right to the monitor.
If, instead, you used your computer to run a super detailed 3d simulation of a car, the end result would look much the same with a car driving on your monitor and the accompanying sounds coming out of your speakers. Except your brain isn't actually putting those images and sounds on-screen, it's keeping that window minimized and sounds muted on that app. It's still doing all of the processing, rendering, encoding, etc. it would have to do to output those images and sounds, it knows what the car is doing in that simulation as long as it's running and what it would look and sound like, it's just not outputting that information onto the screen. And since your brain is the computer that's running the simulation, it's not terribly important that it's not being displayed anywhere because you still just know what that simulation looks and sounds like.
Everyone's brain is wired a little differently and of course I can only try to explain my own personal experience with how my brain works, but overall I find that this sort of explanation tends to ring pretty true for people who do have an internal monologue and don't have aphantasia.
And of course there's probably a pretty wide spectrum of how people actually experience this, how detailed the images, sounds, and words in their head can be and what they're able to do with them.
And like I touched on a little at the beginning, there's the language aspect. I personally wouldn't really choose to describe these things as "seeing" and "hearing," I just don't have a better word for them. Others may find that other terms to describe the same thing just feel better and make more sense to them.
Kind of like how we've collectively agreed that chili peppers are "hot" and "burn" your mouth. Eating some spicy food doesn't really feel the same as if you burned your mouth drinking coffee that is too hot or something, but it does activate some similar kinds of nerves and parts of your brain and such and the experiences are somewhat similar, so we've just kind of decided that terms like "hot" and "burning" are close enough.
But if you got someone who had no prior knowledge of hot peppers and had them eat one, it's possible that they might come up with different words to describe what they experience. Maybe instead of saying that it "burns" they might say that it "itches," "tingles," "hurts," etc. and they wouldn't be wrong, those words just felt the most right to them to describe their experience.
In the case of peppers, that's something we can easily reach a common understanding of. We can just tell them "we call that sensation burning" and anyone who doesn't know what it feels like can just take a bite of a jalapeno and then we're all on the same page.
Unfortunately when we're talking about how we think and process information, we can never really be sure if we're experiencing the same thing. We can't just have them take a bite out of our inner monologue like they can with a jalapeno so we can ask them "is this what thinking is like for you?" We just have to use our words to describe it, and hope that they also landed on "burning" to describe it instead of "itching"
I'm not saying that all people have what I would describe as an inner monologue, or the ability to picture things in their head and just don't realize it, I'm quite certain that some people don't experience the world that way. I think there's probably some cases where people do and don't realize it because of how others explain it, but mostly I think there's just a gap in our language that makes it hard to explain what we're experiencing to people whose brains don't work that way. I'm kind of curious if there's another language that does make a better distinction between actually hearing/seeing things and having an internal monologue or "hearing"/"seeing" things in your mind and how that affects these sorts of conversations among those people.
Wow. I was just thinking how best to describe my “inner monologue,” and the fact that it’s not really seeing and hearing. But now I don’t have to because you nailed it. I want to subscribe to your blog. Also, instead of “burning” I say we change the word for jalapeño taste to “spicification.” “OMG this pepper! My mouth is spicified!”
instead, you used your computer to run a super detailed 3d simulation of a car, the end result would look much the same with a car driving on your monitor and the accompanying sounds coming out of your speakers. Except your brain isn't actually putting those images and sounds on-screen, it's keeping that window minimized and sounds muted on that app
I'm curious, what is your experience with sound generally? Because I do not identify with my brain muting apps but it's mainly music so I don't really mind. If a song is in your head are you aware of the song or is it closer to hearing artists' voice/instruments?
Sorry, meant to reply sooner but it's been a crazy week and it slipped my mind
Sound, especially music, is a bit more vivid for me, but it's still very much happening in its own little sandbox separate from the real world that I'm actually hearing with my ears. I'm not going to confuse the music in my head with actual music coming from a radio or something, and it wouldn't drown out other sounds I'm hearing but it might distract me from them.
My computer analogy is a little clunky and not quite perfect, but it's the best I've come up with. Whatever I'm imagining in my head is happening in sort of a separate space from my normal hearing and vision, but it has all of the bells and whistles of the things I'm actually seeing (and maybe more in some respects) and is getting processed by more or less the same parts of my brain as the real deal.
Instead of muting the sound and minimizing the windows, I could also describe it as they're going to a separate monitor and set of speakers, neither quite fully describes the experience for me, like I said, the analogy isn't perfect.
Regardless of if I think of it as being muted or going to a separate speaker or headset or monitor or whatever, the core is that my brain is the computer, and it's processing both audio and/or video streams, crunching all of the numbers and doing all of the same kind of encoding, decoding, rendering, etc. for both of them whether or not the volume is turned up or which device they're outputting to, both media players are running at the same time with different things playing. It just happens that one is a live stream from the world outside my skull, and the other is something that's being created and rendered on the fly by the OG neural network.
Your comment seems to imply that you don't believe this is the default?
I don't remember the numbers I've read in studies, but i recall thinking it was around 50/50.
It's like talking to yourself, but not vocalizing it. At least that's how I understand it
I still don't know whether that means my absolutely everyday way to think the words I am typing right now, or if some people can actually hear their "inner voice" like in a movie voiceover when the protagonists thoughts are narrated in the protagonist's voice.
Or do people have a "dialogue" in their heads? I mean that never occurred to me because at least that part of "mono"logue is clear...
Pretty much the inner voice thing. Like you are talking yourself through what you are doing, commenting internally on what you see and stuff.
Still not specific enough. I may sometimes "think loud inside" i.e. think in sentence form / "I should definitely do this" - and I definitely "speak silently" in my brain when I am typing out a sentence like this one right here - but I think that is VERY much the norm if not impossible not to do - because writing down language requires the language center / processing skills of the brain.
Beyond that, however, I wouldn't normally comment on what I see / do - because that's... kinda redundant?
Does it mean there are people who really comment everything in their brains? Like "Mhh... this wall is yellow. There's a doorframe to my right - the door is made of wood." etc?
Good point. My guess is that it’s a spectrum, just like everything else going on in peoples’ brains. I don’t do it at all times, but maybe 50% of the time I am “talking to myself.”
From all the attempts of people expaining it a bit differently each time, I think your assessment as a spectrum is the one explanation that makes the most sense, and feels fitting for my "wtf are people talking about"-reaction. It's like "did you know that 10% of all cars will have an engine failure within the first 50 thousand kilometers" as clickbait for statistical defects...
As far as I can tell there are people who have an inner dialogue going all the time but I doubt it's always so mundane. But I don't know. I'm more like you ( I think) where I thought these words out as I typed them but will probably go back to more abstract thought with music afterward.
yeah, that describes my thought process well - I am thinking in words while typing (or while reading, speaking, listening, obviously), but in abstract concepts when not interacting with language, but with objects around me.
Yes, we hear a voice talking in our head. When I'm typing this response, I hear all the words in my head before I type them.
I think there are probably people who go through each as you described. I think we're learning there's many different ways brains can work.
Don't over think it too much.
Not even all humans have that little voice.
In a way that scares me, but it would explain how we have so many different ways of looking at life.
Are you able to visualize? I have an inner monologue but no ability to visualize
I can visualize and have an inner monologue, I was just pointing out that not everyone does.
Sorry, I hope I didn't come off as aggressive! I just think it's amazing all the different ways people think.
You didn't! I was just clarifying, no worries.
I don't believe this. I know this is supposedly true, but I feel like people are lieing just to feel special or something.
How can someone not have a head voice? If one needs to go to the supermarket, does one not think "humm.. What do I need.. I need bananas, toilet paper.."..
People with neurodivergences ranging from mild autism to major life-ruining conditions have been hearing "I don't believe you, you're just doing it for attention" forever, and that's a crappy and potentially very harmful position for someone outside the situation to take.
I've never had an inner monologue and I've had a conversation with a friend (who has an inner monologue) about this. He said the same thing about "specialness", but I don't really understand why one would be more or less special than the other.
It's just simply another way to be.
And to answer your question, I go with a list and go and look for what I wrote down. Usually it's images that go through my mind rather than a structured sentence, which makes no sense to me - but I don't think it's unspecial or anything!
Do you see things in your brain?
And maybe reflect a little bit on why you immediately reject the experiences of others just because they differ from your specific one?
While I have an inner monologue, I'm also able to shut it down and still think. The inner voice is likely an artefact of how we learn. So much learning is done by voice instruction that it becomes the default for most people.
I have a head voice, but not all the time, I see images, but not all the time, I can hear music in my head, most of the time.
When I write things down, I often speak the sentence in my head as I write it, but sometimes the words just fall out of me with no voice leading them
when im planning a food shop, I visualise the shop and walk around it in my head so I put the items I want in the right order on my list.
When working out what i need it's a combination of visualising the fridge/freezer and cupboards and physically looking in them to see what I have and then looking at my meal plan to see what I need. The meal plan i made by just sensing what im craving that week.
When I learn to play a song, I hear the music in my head and can sound that out to work out chords and melodies.
When I compose music, I can hear the next chord I want in my head and then have to sound that out on my instrument.
When I make silly videos to send to my family group chat, I think visually.
People are just different. If you struggle with that concept, then I feel sorry for you.
You say it's for people to feel special, I say it seems to me that it's more you feeling like you aren't special because you wish you could think the way other people do.
In reality, it doesn't matter how you think. I envy my wife as she is much smarter and more organised than me, but she can't visualise anything or hear music in her head and thinks more systematically. She is jealous that I can do these things.
We both agree it's silly.
Fantastic attitude. Do you always discount things you're too stupid to understand as lies or is this a special case?
When I used to come out of the closet as a teenager, this was a common response: “it’s not real” or “you’ve decided to do this”.
It didn’t occur to me I could have righteous indignation about it, but it did lead to me to a place where I’m still enthusiastically delighted/shocked/vindicated when straight people literally don’t care about gays, or aren’t disgusted by gays, or when they wish noncishet people happy anniversary.
Not everyone has a voice in their head. Do you have a cat? Cats have thoughts. Unfortunately that thought is sometimes, "eff you, human!"
What do you mean about "not everyone has a voice in their head"? I have one.. I would like to research more about this topic.
What do you mean about "not everyone has a voice in their head"?
Well, what do you think it means?
I believe it would be interesting to talk about this with someone wo inner monologue.
I do not have an internal monologue.
This has been at least discussed/studied before but I don't know if there has been any sort of formal poll to find a rate between those that do and those that don't.
There are some studies. I don't remember the specifics but it's something like 50/50 on hearing and seeing and about 20 percent do neither. I'm sure those numbers are off, but that's vaguely what i remember reading.
What do you mean by seeing? Like they don't see images in their mind?
We don't.
I definitely see images, but not specifics. For example, I can see my wife's face, in my mind, but I can't draw from that memory.
Like I am seeing the images from a distance, but if I try to focus on a detail, the image falls apart.
Some people do. Many of us don't.
This is so fascinating! It's easy to assume most people experience things the same way while we are all different all the way down to how we think and imagine stuff!
I have to ask - in what way do you think about stuff? Especially whem you need to be mindful of a process or remember something?
I still think in words and images, but there is no voice.
Something else that came up in previous discussions. I remember emotional response more than specific things. For example, my wife can remember what we wore, what we ate, and other specifics, of a date we had years ago. I barely remember even the location, but I can easily recall that I was happy about the date, but there was some mild frustration early on, something about the restaurant, but then feeling better about it later.
I say this and my wife says, "Oh yeah, we were annoyed because we had reservations but still had to wait 20 minutes, but then we were given an appetizer."
However, before my comments, she couldn't recall if we liked the place or not.
I'll remember if I liked someone, but not why or even their name.
Mine is just chunks of info or ideas. My coworkers think this is why i talk a lot unfiltered- because i don't hear how it will sound it in my head before it comes out of my mouth. There's a little test online that was going around for awhile where you try to visualize a red star and grade it 1-5.
I am curious how many people don't have an inner monologue, but there are a few articles on the subject. Here's one at random.>
My cognition is mixed. Verbal inner monologue is going most of the time when I'm just thinking about routine stuff. But if I'm "in the flow zone" working on a project or playing music or something like that, the little "voice in my head" vanishes completely and that's when I'm the happiest. I suspect most people can relate to those modes.
That's relatable to me at least. And often music is playing my my head in the place of my inner voice.
Agreed, now that I think about it. It’s definitely better to be in the zone. If I’m monologuing I think it might signify that I’m having trouble with something, but I don’t necessarily enjoy being that aware of my own self.
Thx for the info..
There are also people who are unable to see images in their mind. In case you want to go further down the rabbit hole.
Do you know if it's some kind of mental illness? I mean some kind of human abnormality, or do you believe there are a lot of people like that?
My theory is that there's no such thing as neurotypical.
Neurotypical is just the statistical average of all the different ways we're fucked in the head.
i.e. Half have anxiety, the other half have depression and we just assume normal is somewhere in the middle.
We function just fine. Seeing images or hearing voices in your mind is not required for any task I'm aware of.
My MIL and to some extent my husband are like that. It was painful discussing design plans with them when we reno'd our kitchen. I just started doing mood boards so they could see what I had in my head that I wanted it to look like.
I'm terrible at decorating!! After 20+ years in my house most of my walls have pictures that are sentimental to me but not visually connected in any way.
There are a lot of us.
Many of us don't. Many of us also don't see images in our minds.
I don't have one but my SO does and when he first referenced to it I just stared at him like he was hallucinating. Like wtf you mean you have a tiny voice that functions as a narrator at times?, doesn't that freak you out? Does it use the third person to address you?
It still kind of creeps me out because, as I said, I don't have one.
Thoughts, yes. Please keep in mind that thoughts are not necessarily in the form of a voice, even in humans.
Not sure about thoughts, but cats are interesting in their level of committment to their intent when they "decide" they want to do something. They are laser-focused and its hard to actually meaningfully distract them from the execution once the order's been placed haha.
Watch them sometime. Cat.exe are very deiberate little critters. It reminds me of when you hit the share sheet on iOS but you change your mind and try desperately to navigate away from it popping up or hoping you can cancel out the instruction but nope. Its coming
When my cat is staring me in my eyes I swear he's trying to mind control me.
Cat holding paw out towards op
You will give me extra food!
Not trying, doing.
That's just his taxoplasma communicating with your taxoplasma. Nothing to worry about.
They don't have language, so they can't have the internal dialogue.
But can they have imagination? Since many animals have dreams, then why not?
How can you say that animals don't have language?
As I said in an earlier comment elsewhere in this post:
Have you never seen a dog wag their tail or play bow?
Have you never seen a squirrel twitching their tail at another squirrel who's encroached on their territory?
Have you never encountered any media about whale songs?
That said, plenty of humans do not have a voiced internal experience. The lack of language does not imply a lack of cognition. I would expect that the brain of a closely related organism, say a chimp, would have many similar experiences generated by the same stimuli. Would they experience green like I experience green? I can't even say that about a person sitting next to me, but they probably have an equivalent experience.
That said, if we had a way of communicating could we reach agreed terms? I can do that with my cat, so I would think he has an understanding of me and my behaviours along with what tends to happen when I do certain things like clap then shake my hands at the end of a treat session. He knows there are no more treats, he associates that with my hands clapping and shaking, so we communicate. Does he have a voice in his head describing it? Probably not. Does he have Meows? Again, probably not, but he would have a sense and memories of previous times.
Does he have Meows?
That’s such a cute and funny thing to imagine lol. An inner meowologue
Some animals do have language and animals that are around people a lot likely have an inner voice that is their owner's voice.
They likely don't plan using this voice, the way people do. But it certainly influences their behavior.
A dog that's been yelled at for getting in the garbage might hear a no in their head even if their owners at work.
they don't have language
Have you never seen a dog wag their tail or play bow?
Have you never seen a squirrel twitching their tail at another squirrel who's encroached on their territory?
Have you never encountered any media about whale songs?
All kinds of animals have all kinds of language.
I meant to say language in the linguistics sense, a series of abstract items which can be arranged to convey arbitrary meaning. For example, a dog barking can be a threat display, a warning, playful, sad, afraid, and so on. But can you use barking to create grammar? With grammar you could have labels for items in the world and use various barks to refer to them, make requests, ask questions, and so on. Some types of animals have warning calls that are specific to types of predators, for example an eagle call or a leopard call. Leopards require different responses than eagles so the distinction is very useful and helps others to respond. This is not quite language but is definitely a step in the right direction.
So yes, you are correct, lots of animals can communicate things to each other, but it is not the same as language like what humans have. Could we find an animal that does have language? Or something very close? Sure, but we haven't shown that yet. Maybe we should focus on giving other animals a chance to develop before we wipe them all out.
but it is not the same as language like what humans have
And it doesn't have to be. In fact this sort of thinking can limit how we learn about other animals.
Dogs don't pass the mirror test for self awareness like some corvids and a few other animals do. But dogs don't experience each other primarily through vision, scent is much more their main sense. So is that even a valid test for canid self awareness?
This is something I've always been highly skeptical of. As a somewhat experienced meditator, I'm hyper-aware of the constant flood of self-talk happening in my head, but I don't remember paying particular attention to it before I started practicing. It has always been there, but until then, I hadn't paid any special attention to it. Whenever this subject comes up with people who don't meditate, they often seem to live under the illusion that, except for intentional thoughts, their mind is more or less silent the rest of the time. I'd argue that 99.9% of people couldn't sit for 20 seconds without letting their mind wander, even if their life depended on it. Even I couldn't, despite my experience in meditation.
That's why I think that when people are asked whether they have this inner voice or not, some say no because they're not aware of it. Not having it would effectively be synonymous with being enlightened.
I have internal voice sometimes but not others. In some things my cognition is far more verbal, working through something like a monologue or conversation. Other times I may have more of a mental image of something, sometimes more in real space and sometimes completely disconnected from real space. Sometimes it is much more abstract with sensations and emotions with very little in terms of concrete metaphores.
Also I can have racing thoughts without it being language. I also have impacts on those racing thoughts from taking Ritalin (ADHD medication) and it is not just the word thoughts but also the flow of other types of cognition.
Also an experienced meditator.
Not everyone thinks in words. Some people think in pictures. Or in other sense consciousnesses. As an experienced cook, I can think in taste and smell without any auditory component of 'what should I put in this dish'. For example.
As for word thinking, passive thoughts are more auditory and active thoughts more somatic (throat and jaw muscles will move). These can be decoupled from the sense of I making, especially passive thoughts.
At which point you get thoughts think themselves, to quote Jack Kornfield. A sort of bubbling up of passive thoughts in voices that aren't mine.
It's likely animals that live close to people experience this. The owners voice yelling no when they do something the owner wouldn't like, even if the owner isn't around.
Anyway, trying to not think can be like holding your breath. I can do that for awhile. But it's not right effort. Letting thoughts settle, like sand in a glass of water. And letting go of the sense of I making. The mind will rest quite naturally. That's calm abiding.
In other words, it's attachment to the inner voice that's making it difficult for you to imagine that a lot of people think in pictures or other ways. And noticing this sense of attachment in your practice with the intention of letting it go, might deepen your insight into yourself and what others may or may not experience.
Edit: this listening meditation is helpful for me in letting go of attachment to the inner voice. As is annapanasati, especially the third tetrad.
Probably not expressed as a voice, but definitely thinking.
One of our cats would regularly get "that look" on her face and we'd tell her "Lorelei! Stop thinking evil thoughts!" then she'd go on a tear. Clearly plotting what she was going to do.
Humans are animals.
True though that may be, there's no benefit to mentioning that in this situation.
I was making the point on the notion that we might be alone in that vs animals. If you don't distinguish man from other animals, why would you assume that they couldn't?
they
... So what sort of non-human are you? 🧐
He's a cat.
Have you ever been close to a cat? I cant believe they can be wacky like this without some sort of inner monologue and intention.
My cat has thoughts. They're usually "today I feel like biting my owner because it's a load of fun"
This video perfectly describes my cat... except the actual fur color. Because he's a snowshoe, not... whatever kind of cat species is in this video.
Dogs dream, and dreams are just thoughts.
Based on watching my Borzoi decide whether or not to sneak into the kitchen, I'd say yes.
I think that it's on a sliding scale. Some animals clearly have some kind of inner thought process, and clearly have their own personalities. Others not as much. I know that with cats, for instance, there are tools you can use that allow cats to communicate certain concepts to people, stings of buttons that are each linked to a discrete word. Cats can learn to string button presses together to 'say' things to their keepers. (Apparently the most common thing they ask for is clean water, so clean your cat's water daily.) That may not be evidence of "thought" in the way that you're thinking about it, but there's clearly some form of cognition going on there.
My cat understands a "now" "later" type of situation and strings actions with it. For instance "now play later food".
Edit: I taught him buttons and those are some of the choices
clean water
I used to have a cat who did this. He would lead me to the bathroom, jump into the tub, and then wait patiently until I turned on the bath faucet -- just a trickle!
I think so. I have parrots who are at a 4 year old human's intelligence level. They do things they know they shouldn't and wait for me to turn my back, it's like they know they shouldn't but have an intrusive thought and act on it. Of course, once I say "excuse me..." With the dad tone, they fly to their cages and pretend they did nothing. To me that takes thought and reasoning, desire, planning, action, etc. On their part.
Wait, you have a little voice in your head??
Not sure if meta or real.
Yeah you know like the devil and the angel of the cartoons..
So many people making stuff up they have no way of actually knowing in this comment section. No wonder religion is so widespread!
The true answer, unsatisfying as it may be, is that we have no way of knowing the subjective internal experience (often referred to as 'consciousness') of other humans, let alone other animals. For all we can know, a rock could have thoughts. We really, for now at least, can't know. Unfortunately.
I'm sure it depends on the animal. In fact humans think in at least two inner voices.
The ear consciousness is receptive, and the speech consciousness is active.
What I mean by this is a dog or another animal that spends a lot of time with people likely has a passive inner voice of their owner. A dog might hear an owner yell no when they go to do something the owner doesn't like, even if their owner isn't around.
Animals that are capable of speech such as a parrot, will likely have an active speech consciousness. Which is more somatic in tone.
For example, when I am in active speech consciousness I can feel my jaw and tongue muscles move. When in passive listening consciousness, my ears might move or strain to try to hear the inner speech.
With practice these somatic sensations can be decoupled from their internal sense consciousnesses. Which tends to help them quiet down and deepen meditation.
This is one of my favorite practices that's accessible for people who don't really meditate. The guided meditation is the first fifteen minutes of the video, so you don't have to listen for the whole hour to get an inkling of what I'm pointing at.
They are like people who never learn language. This sometimes happens to deaf people who are not taught to use sign language. Any inference about such a person’s intellect and capacities should be abstracted towards mammals at least.
Why would anyone think that thought is unique to humans? Seems absurd to a frightening degree.
The voice in my head requires complex language and symbolism. I don’t doubt that they’re capable of thought, just like Helen Keller was capable of thought before having language, but I doubt that it’s like the “little voice” in my head.
No, at least not most animals. There was a study a while back that showed that animals think by reducing the world to a series of binary choice that they react to in the moment. I imagine it's a lot like when you're playing a sport or video game and things get very intense and fast paced; your inner monologue isn't telling you what your next move will be every second, you're just reacting on instinct. That's probably how animals see the world all the time.
That being said, "animals," is a broad category, and some of them may be capable of creating an abstract narrative for themselves. It was recently discovered that whale songs have a phonetic alphabet, which means their language may be as complex as ours. If that's the case, they may be capable of using that language to build an internal monologue.
I'm not sure about all animals, but I'm pretty sure my sphinx cat does. I have to give her medicine every day and not only does she knows when it's time to get it, but there are times where she will hide under the bed. Just laying down and looking at her and asking her to come out is enough to get her to wander over slowly and get it. It's funny, you can almost see the thoughts going through her head as she realizes she has to just give in and go get her pill.
I don't think they have an internal monologue. I think they just react to their senses.
But they can make plans, they have goal-oriented behavior that drives them to seek out a goal that exists beyond their senses. If I leave the house through the front door without giving my dog his customary distraction, he goes out the back door and around the side because he knows that, if I haven't properly secured the fence, he can get out through the fence to reach me. Nothing about that involves his senses, it's just something he's figured out.
Now, I doubt any part of that involves an internal monologue because they don't use language (even though they can, in fact, understand limited language). If they don't use it themselves, they probably don't figure things out in their heads that way, it simply wouldn't be very efficient. But they certainly possess more complex internal cognition than just "I smell food" or whatever.
When I solve the kinds of problems that animals have been shown to be able to solve, there’s no inner vocalization. I solve those problems using visual simulations in my head. I use virtual hands more than I use a virtual voice to solve such things.
I’m autistic.
To be honest, that's me too! (And I also might be autistic.) But I'm capable of thinking things out verbally, something I do particularly in regard to programming and architecture problems, or figuring out what to say to someone else. So it's a tool that's available to me. I don't think it's available to my dog, but I'll bet he's doing virtual paws.
I would say all living things have some form of thought and consciousness. Even those that lack brains like plants.
How do you know other humans have thoughts? There is no way of measuring it, and there is no way to tell if someone is lying about it. You could measure brain activity. But There is no need for brain activity to be accompanied by experience. There is no law of nature that says that electrical signals are accompanied by experience or thoughts. There is also no way to tell the difference between a millimeter cube of brain from any animal. So if you believe that brain activity is represented by thoughts, then there is absolutely no way to draw an arbitrary line between humans and animals.
So i don't even think it's a question.
None of them have language beyond associating a small number of specific sounds or words to objects or events but I would bet my legs just above the knee down that Dolphins monologue "Squee-aww" when they spot a scuba diver. Dogs definitely daydream about you calling their name when you're away for a long time. If they couldn't in some way internalize the call then they would not remember it.
EDIT: To add onto my claim that they don't have language beyond a certain level, that's what we've been able to prove so far. We know that some of the smarter animals, such as dolphins, crows, and gorillas can understand quite a few words with daily training and even use and pass down taught language to limited capacity, but the longest experiments for complex languages with these animals have all resulted in "failure" to teach them or learn from them to the extent of being able to have conversations or form complex statements.
No, they operate on instinct. Our thoughts are in our own language, their only language is instinct and body language (barks included).
One of My strongest memories is watching a documentary where they claimed dogs don't dream, and my dogs directly in front of the TV making little sleep barks and moving legs deep into some dream.
Let's be honest we are animals and the rest aren't all that far behind us.
I can tell that even my pet gerbils have dreams. Man I'd love to know what they're dreaming of. They've effectively spent their entire lives inside that glass terrarium so I can't imagine there being a huge variety of novel experiences to dream of.
IIUC during REM sleep your body loses muscle tone. And that's the phase of sleep where dream happens. Which means, at least in humans, when you twitch in sleep, you aren't dreaming. Same thing when someone is sleepwalking.
Yeah I understand but I'm talking about an inner monologue, not about dreaming..
Dreaming definetly involves quite deep thoughts imo.
I just found it absolutely mad these science guys on TV where claiming dogs don't dream, I mean it's obviously nonsense to anyone who has ever had a dog how the hell do they get to their nonsense conclusions
Are we even sure everyone has one of those? Not everyone has a mind's eye.
Not everyone has an inner monologue
What's driving me wild about these claims is I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE FUCK PEOPLE EVEN MEAN with "inner monologue". And none of those stupid articles seems to bother to first and foremost try to define what the fuck they are writing about. A definition of the word....
Apparently some people actually hear a voice and see things in their mind.
Something that I think trips people up when trying to understand what it's like to have an inner monologue or to visualize things in your mind is that we don't really have better words for the experience.
I have an inner monologue, and saying that I "hear" a voice in my head when I'm thinking about something isn't exactly the way I would choose to describe it, there's just no simpler way to really put it.
It's sort of like there are words "happening" in my head. As I think through something my brain is putting the thoughts and concepts together with words describing those thoughts. If I'm, for example, deciding what color to paint something, while I'm thinking through the possibilities, my brain is just sort of conjuring up sentences that match my thoughts like "if I paint it red, it will look funny, so I'll paint it blue instead, yeah, that's what I'll do, alright gotta go to the store for blue paint." There's not a literal voice making noises in my head that I hear the same way I hear someone standing in front of me talking, but I intuitively know what the voice speaking those imaginary words would sound like, and the thoughts and ideas I have that way kind of get processed in my brain in a similar way to how it would absorb ideas from someone explaining something to me verbally.
Similarly when I say I can "see" something in my head, if I picture, let's say a car, there's not a literal car floating in my visual field somewhere like some kind of voluntary hallucination. It's sort of like having a complete intuitive understanding of exactly what that car looks like, you know what it looks like from all angles, with the doors open and closed, what it looks like in motion and parked, etc. without actually having to go look at it, open the doors, see it being driven around, etc. and all of that information is getting processed though the same or similar parts of my brain that would process actually looking at the car.
I like to use the analogy of your brain as a computer. When you're actually hearing or seeing something it's like you have a microphone or webcam pointed at something feeding into the computer, and having it output right to the monitor.
If, instead, you used your computer to run a super detailed 3d simulation of a car, the end result would look much the same with a car driving on your monitor and the accompanying sounds coming out of your speakers. Except your brain isn't actually putting those images and sounds on-screen, it's keeping that window minimized and sounds muted on that app. It's still doing all of the processing, rendering, encoding, etc. it would have to do to output those images and sounds, it knows what the car is doing in that simulation as long as it's running and what it would look and sound like, it's just not outputting that information onto the screen. And since your brain is the computer that's running the simulation, it's not terribly important that it's not being displayed anywhere because you still just know what that simulation looks and sounds like.
Everyone's brain is wired a little differently and of course I can only try to explain my own personal experience with how my brain works, but overall I find that this sort of explanation tends to ring pretty true for people who do have an internal monologue and don't have aphantasia.
And of course there's probably a pretty wide spectrum of how people actually experience this, how detailed the images, sounds, and words in their head can be and what they're able to do with them.
And like I touched on a little at the beginning, there's the language aspect. I personally wouldn't really choose to describe these things as "seeing" and "hearing," I just don't have a better word for them. Others may find that other terms to describe the same thing just feel better and make more sense to them.
Kind of like how we've collectively agreed that chili peppers are "hot" and "burn" your mouth. Eating some spicy food doesn't really feel the same as if you burned your mouth drinking coffee that is too hot or something, but it does activate some similar kinds of nerves and parts of your brain and such and the experiences are somewhat similar, so we've just kind of decided that terms like "hot" and "burning" are close enough.
But if you got someone who had no prior knowledge of hot peppers and had them eat one, it's possible that they might come up with different words to describe what they experience. Maybe instead of saying that it "burns" they might say that it "itches," "tingles," "hurts," etc. and they wouldn't be wrong, those words just felt the most right to them to describe their experience.
In the case of peppers, that's something we can easily reach a common understanding of. We can just tell them "we call that sensation burning" and anyone who doesn't know what it feels like can just take a bite of a jalapeno and then we're all on the same page.
Unfortunately when we're talking about how we think and process information, we can never really be sure if we're experiencing the same thing. We can't just have them take a bite out of our inner monologue like they can with a jalapeno so we can ask them "is this what thinking is like for you?" We just have to use our words to describe it, and hope that they also landed on "burning" to describe it instead of "itching"
I'm not saying that all people have what I would describe as an inner monologue, or the ability to picture things in their head and just don't realize it, I'm quite certain that some people don't experience the world that way. I think there's probably some cases where people do and don't realize it because of how others explain it, but mostly I think there's just a gap in our language that makes it hard to explain what we're experiencing to people whose brains don't work that way. I'm kind of curious if there's another language that does make a better distinction between actually hearing/seeing things and having an internal monologue or "hearing"/"seeing" things in your mind and how that affects these sorts of conversations among those people.
Wow. I was just thinking how best to describe my “inner monologue,” and the fact that it’s not really seeing and hearing. But now I don’t have to because you nailed it. I want to subscribe to your blog. Also, instead of “burning” I say we change the word for jalapeño taste to “spicification.” “OMG this pepper! My mouth is spicified!”
I'm curious, what is your experience with sound generally? Because I do not identify with my brain muting apps but it's mainly music so I don't really mind. If a song is in your head are you aware of the song or is it closer to hearing artists' voice/instruments?
Sorry, meant to reply sooner but it's been a crazy week and it slipped my mind
Sound, especially music, is a bit more vivid for me, but it's still very much happening in its own little sandbox separate from the real world that I'm actually hearing with my ears. I'm not going to confuse the music in my head with actual music coming from a radio or something, and it wouldn't drown out other sounds I'm hearing but it might distract me from them.
My computer analogy is a little clunky and not quite perfect, but it's the best I've come up with. Whatever I'm imagining in my head is happening in sort of a separate space from my normal hearing and vision, but it has all of the bells and whistles of the things I'm actually seeing (and maybe more in some respects) and is getting processed by more or less the same parts of my brain as the real deal.
Instead of muting the sound and minimizing the windows, I could also describe it as they're going to a separate monitor and set of speakers, neither quite fully describes the experience for me, like I said, the analogy isn't perfect.
Regardless of if I think of it as being muted or going to a separate speaker or headset or monitor or whatever, the core is that my brain is the computer, and it's processing both audio and/or video streams, crunching all of the numbers and doing all of the same kind of encoding, decoding, rendering, etc. for both of them whether or not the volume is turned up or which device they're outputting to, both media players are running at the same time with different things playing. It just happens that one is a live stream from the world outside my skull, and the other is something that's being created and rendered on the fly by the OG neural network.
Your comment seems to imply that you don't believe this is the default?
I don't remember the numbers I've read in studies, but i recall thinking it was around 50/50.
It's like talking to yourself, but not vocalizing it. At least that's how I understand it
I still don't know whether that means my absolutely everyday way to think the words I am typing right now, or if some people can actually hear their "inner voice" like in a movie voiceover when the protagonists thoughts are narrated in the protagonist's voice. Or do people have a "dialogue" in their heads? I mean that never occurred to me because at least that part of "mono"logue is clear...
Pretty much the inner voice thing. Like you are talking yourself through what you are doing, commenting internally on what you see and stuff.
Still not specific enough. I may sometimes "think loud inside" i.e. think in sentence form / "I should definitely do this" - and I definitely "speak silently" in my brain when I am typing out a sentence like this one right here - but I think that is VERY much the norm if not impossible not to do - because writing down language requires the language center / processing skills of the brain.
Beyond that, however, I wouldn't normally comment on what I see / do - because that's... kinda redundant?
Does it mean there are people who really comment everything in their brains? Like "Mhh... this wall is yellow. There's a doorframe to my right - the door is made of wood." etc?
Good point. My guess is that it’s a spectrum, just like everything else going on in peoples’ brains. I don’t do it at all times, but maybe 50% of the time I am “talking to myself.”
From all the attempts of people expaining it a bit differently each time, I think your assessment as a spectrum is the one explanation that makes the most sense, and feels fitting for my "wtf are people talking about"-reaction. It's like "did you know that 10% of all cars will have an engine failure within the first 50 thousand kilometers" as clickbait for statistical defects...
As far as I can tell there are people who have an inner dialogue going all the time but I doubt it's always so mundane. But I don't know. I'm more like you ( I think) where I thought these words out as I typed them but will probably go back to more abstract thought with music afterward.
yeah, that describes my thought process well - I am thinking in words while typing (or while reading, speaking, listening, obviously), but in abstract concepts when not interacting with language, but with objects around me.
Yes, we hear a voice talking in our head. When I'm typing this response, I hear all the words in my head before I type them.
I think there are probably people who go through each as you described. I think we're learning there's many different ways brains can work.
Don't over think it too much.
Not even all humans have that little voice.
In a way that scares me, but it would explain how we have so many different ways of looking at life.
Are you able to visualize? I have an inner monologue but no ability to visualize
I can visualize and have an inner monologue, I was just pointing out that not everyone does.
Sorry, I hope I didn't come off as aggressive! I just think it's amazing all the different ways people think.
You didn't! I was just clarifying, no worries.
I don't believe this. I know this is supposedly true, but I feel like people are lieing just to feel special or something.
How can someone not have a head voice? If one needs to go to the supermarket, does one not think "humm.. What do I need.. I need bananas, toilet paper.."..
People with neurodivergences ranging from mild autism to major life-ruining conditions have been hearing "I don't believe you, you're just doing it for attention" forever, and that's a crappy and potentially very harmful position for someone outside the situation to take.
I've never had an inner monologue and I've had a conversation with a friend (who has an inner monologue) about this. He said the same thing about "specialness", but I don't really understand why one would be more or less special than the other.
It's just simply another way to be.
And to answer your question, I go with a list and go and look for what I wrote down. Usually it's images that go through my mind rather than a structured sentence, which makes no sense to me - but I don't think it's unspecial or anything!
Do you see things in your brain?
And maybe reflect a little bit on why you immediately reject the experiences of others just because they differ from your specific one?
While I have an inner monologue, I'm also able to shut it down and still think. The inner voice is likely an artefact of how we learn. So much learning is done by voice instruction that it becomes the default for most people.
I have a head voice, but not all the time, I see images, but not all the time, I can hear music in my head, most of the time.
When I write things down, I often speak the sentence in my head as I write it, but sometimes the words just fall out of me with no voice leading them
when im planning a food shop, I visualise the shop and walk around it in my head so I put the items I want in the right order on my list. When working out what i need it's a combination of visualising the fridge/freezer and cupboards and physically looking in them to see what I have and then looking at my meal plan to see what I need. The meal plan i made by just sensing what im craving that week.
When I learn to play a song, I hear the music in my head and can sound that out to work out chords and melodies.
When I compose music, I can hear the next chord I want in my head and then have to sound that out on my instrument.
When I make silly videos to send to my family group chat, I think visually.
People are just different. If you struggle with that concept, then I feel sorry for you.
You say it's for people to feel special, I say it seems to me that it's more you feeling like you aren't special because you wish you could think the way other people do.
In reality, it doesn't matter how you think. I envy my wife as she is much smarter and more organised than me, but she can't visualise anything or hear music in her head and thinks more systematically. She is jealous that I can do these things.
We both agree it's silly.
Fantastic attitude. Do you always discount things you're too stupid to understand as lies or is this a special case?
When I used to come out of the closet as a teenager, this was a common response: “it’s not real” or “you’ve decided to do this”.
It didn’t occur to me I could have righteous indignation about it, but it did lead to me to a place where I’m still enthusiastically delighted/shocked/vindicated when straight people literally don’t care about gays, or aren’t disgusted by gays, or when they wish noncishet people happy anniversary.
Not everyone has a voice in their head. Do you have a cat? Cats have thoughts. Unfortunately that thought is sometimes, "eff you, human!"
What do you mean about "not everyone has a voice in their head"? I have one.. I would like to research more about this topic.
Well, what do you think it means?
I believe it would be interesting to talk about this with someone wo inner monologue.
I do not have an internal monologue.
This has been at least discussed/studied before but I don't know if there has been any sort of formal poll to find a rate between those that do and those that don't.
There are some studies. I don't remember the specifics but it's something like 50/50 on hearing and seeing and about 20 percent do neither. I'm sure those numbers are off, but that's vaguely what i remember reading.
What do you mean by seeing? Like they don't see images in their mind?
We don't.
I definitely see images, but not specifics. For example, I can see my wife's face, in my mind, but I can't draw from that memory.
Like I am seeing the images from a distance, but if I try to focus on a detail, the image falls apart.
Some people do. Many of us don't.
This is so fascinating! It's easy to assume most people experience things the same way while we are all different all the way down to how we think and imagine stuff!
I have to ask - in what way do you think about stuff? Especially whem you need to be mindful of a process or remember something?
I still think in words and images, but there is no voice.
Something else that came up in previous discussions. I remember emotional response more than specific things. For example, my wife can remember what we wore, what we ate, and other specifics, of a date we had years ago. I barely remember even the location, but I can easily recall that I was happy about the date, but there was some mild frustration early on, something about the restaurant, but then feeling better about it later.
I say this and my wife says, "Oh yeah, we were annoyed because we had reservations but still had to wait 20 minutes, but then we were given an appetizer."
However, before my comments, she couldn't recall if we liked the place or not.
I'll remember if I liked someone, but not why or even their name.
Mine is just chunks of info or ideas. My coworkers think this is why i talk a lot unfiltered- because i don't hear how it will sound it in my head before it comes out of my mouth. There's a little test online that was going around for awhile where you try to visualize a red star and grade it 1-5.
I am curious how many people don't have an inner monologue, but there are a few articles on the subject. Here's one at random.>
My cognition is mixed. Verbal inner monologue is going most of the time when I'm just thinking about routine stuff. But if I'm "in the flow zone" working on a project or playing music or something like that, the little "voice in my head" vanishes completely and that's when I'm the happiest. I suspect most people can relate to those modes.
That's relatable to me at least. And often music is playing my my head in the place of my inner voice.
Agreed, now that I think about it. It’s definitely better to be in the zone. If I’m monologuing I think it might signify that I’m having trouble with something, but I don’t necessarily enjoy being that aware of my own self.
Thx for the info..
There are also people who are unable to see images in their mind. In case you want to go further down the rabbit hole.
Do you know if it's some kind of mental illness? I mean some kind of human abnormality, or do you believe there are a lot of people like that?
My theory is that there's no such thing as neurotypical.
Neurotypical is just the statistical average of all the different ways we're fucked in the head.
i.e. Half have anxiety, the other half have depression and we just assume normal is somewhere in the middle.
We function just fine. Seeing images or hearing voices in your mind is not required for any task I'm aware of.
My MIL and to some extent my husband are like that. It was painful discussing design plans with them when we reno'd our kitchen. I just started doing mood boards so they could see what I had in my head that I wanted it to look like.
I'm terrible at decorating!! After 20+ years in my house most of my walls have pictures that are sentimental to me but not visually connected in any way.
There are a lot of us.
Many of us don't. Many of us also don't see images in our minds.
I don't have one but my SO does and when he first referenced to it I just stared at him like he was hallucinating. Like wtf you mean you have a tiny voice that functions as a narrator at times?, doesn't that freak you out? Does it use the third person to address you? It still kind of creeps me out because, as I said, I don't have one.
Thoughts, yes. Please keep in mind that thoughts are not necessarily in the form of a voice, even in humans.
Not sure about thoughts, but cats are interesting in their level of committment to their intent when they "decide" they want to do something. They are laser-focused and its hard to actually meaningfully distract them from the execution once the order's been placed haha.
Watch them sometime. Cat.exe are very deiberate little critters. It reminds me of when you hit the share sheet on iOS but you change your mind and try desperately to navigate away from it popping up or hoping you can cancel out the instruction but nope. Its coming
When my cat is staring me in my eyes I swear he's trying to mind control me.
Cat holding paw out towards op
You will give me extra food!
Not trying, doing.
That's just his taxoplasma communicating with your taxoplasma. Nothing to worry about.
They don't have language, so they can't have the internal dialogue.
But can they have imagination? Since many animals have dreams, then why not?
How can you say that animals don't have language?
As I said in an earlier comment elsewhere in this post:
Have you never seen a dog wag their tail or play bow?
Have you never seen a squirrel twitching their tail at another squirrel who's encroached on their territory?
Have you never encountered any media about whale songs?
All kinds of animals have all kinds of language.
No, but that is because they don't have language.
That said, plenty of humans do not have a voiced internal experience. The lack of language does not imply a lack of cognition. I would expect that the brain of a closely related organism, say a chimp, would have many similar experiences generated by the same stimuli. Would they experience green like I experience green? I can't even say that about a person sitting next to me, but they probably have an equivalent experience.
That said, if we had a way of communicating could we reach agreed terms? I can do that with my cat, so I would think he has an understanding of me and my behaviours along with what tends to happen when I do certain things like clap then shake my hands at the end of a treat session. He knows there are no more treats, he associates that with my hands clapping and shaking, so we communicate. Does he have a voice in his head describing it? Probably not. Does he have Meows? Again, probably not, but he would have a sense and memories of previous times.
That’s such a cute and funny thing to imagine lol. An inner meowologue
Some animals do have language and animals that are around people a lot likely have an inner voice that is their owner's voice.
They likely don't plan using this voice, the way people do. But it certainly influences their behavior.
A dog that's been yelled at for getting in the garbage might hear a no in their head even if their owners at work.
Have you never seen a dog wag their tail or play bow?
Have you never seen a squirrel twitching their tail at another squirrel who's encroached on their territory?
Have you never encountered any media about whale songs?
All kinds of animals have all kinds of language.
I meant to say language in the linguistics sense, a series of abstract items which can be arranged to convey arbitrary meaning. For example, a dog barking can be a threat display, a warning, playful, sad, afraid, and so on. But can you use barking to create grammar? With grammar you could have labels for items in the world and use various barks to refer to them, make requests, ask questions, and so on. Some types of animals have warning calls that are specific to types of predators, for example an eagle call or a leopard call. Leopards require different responses than eagles so the distinction is very useful and helps others to respond. This is not quite language but is definitely a step in the right direction.
So yes, you are correct, lots of animals can communicate things to each other, but it is not the same as language like what humans have. Could we find an animal that does have language? Or something very close? Sure, but we haven't shown that yet. Maybe we should focus on giving other animals a chance to develop before we wipe them all out.
And it doesn't have to be. In fact this sort of thinking can limit how we learn about other animals.
Dogs don't pass the mirror test for self awareness like some corvids and a few other animals do. But dogs don't experience each other primarily through vision, scent is much more their main sense. So is that even a valid test for canid self awareness?
This is something I've always been highly skeptical of. As a somewhat experienced meditator, I'm hyper-aware of the constant flood of self-talk happening in my head, but I don't remember paying particular attention to it before I started practicing. It has always been there, but until then, I hadn't paid any special attention to it. Whenever this subject comes up with people who don't meditate, they often seem to live under the illusion that, except for intentional thoughts, their mind is more or less silent the rest of the time. I'd argue that 99.9% of people couldn't sit for 20 seconds without letting their mind wander, even if their life depended on it. Even I couldn't, despite my experience in meditation.
That's why I think that when people are asked whether they have this inner voice or not, some say no because they're not aware of it. Not having it would effectively be synonymous with being enlightened.
I have internal voice sometimes but not others. In some things my cognition is far more verbal, working through something like a monologue or conversation. Other times I may have more of a mental image of something, sometimes more in real space and sometimes completely disconnected from real space. Sometimes it is much more abstract with sensations and emotions with very little in terms of concrete metaphores.
Also I can have racing thoughts without it being language. I also have impacts on those racing thoughts from taking Ritalin (ADHD medication) and it is not just the word thoughts but also the flow of other types of cognition.
Also an experienced meditator.
Not everyone thinks in words. Some people think in pictures. Or in other sense consciousnesses. As an experienced cook, I can think in taste and smell without any auditory component of 'what should I put in this dish'. For example.
As for word thinking, passive thoughts are more auditory and active thoughts more somatic (throat and jaw muscles will move). These can be decoupled from the sense of I making, especially passive thoughts.
At which point you get thoughts think themselves, to quote Jack Kornfield. A sort of bubbling up of passive thoughts in voices that aren't mine.
It's likely animals that live close to people experience this. The owners voice yelling no when they do something the owner wouldn't like, even if the owner isn't around.
Anyway, trying to not think can be like holding your breath. I can do that for awhile. But it's not right effort. Letting thoughts settle, like sand in a glass of water. And letting go of the sense of I making. The mind will rest quite naturally. That's calm abiding.
In other words, it's attachment to the inner voice that's making it difficult for you to imagine that a lot of people think in pictures or other ways. And noticing this sense of attachment in your practice with the intention of letting it go, might deepen your insight into yourself and what others may or may not experience.
Edit: this listening meditation is helpful for me in letting go of attachment to the inner voice. As is annapanasati, especially the third tetrad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OW9LNSVjPo
I would say that animals have thoughts, yes. But I don’t think that they have an inner monologue or voice.
You could probably ask someone who has no inner voice. I think animals might be more similar to that.
Animals have thoughts, that is clear as day.
Inner Monolog? In a way. But not like us because they don't speak English motherfucker.
But it's possible to have thoughs if you don't have inner monologue?
Bro, not even all people have an inner monologue. There are many different modes to process thoughts.
Yes. A thought can be a picture.
And I don't say that they don't have inner Monolog. It wouldn't be like ours because that depends on the language we use.
A dogs inner Monolog would be barking I guess.
Probably not expressed as a voice, but definitely thinking.
One of our cats would regularly get "that look" on her face and we'd tell her "Lorelei! Stop thinking evil thoughts!" then she'd go on a tear. Clearly plotting what she was going to do.
Humans are animals.
True though that may be, there's no benefit to mentioning that in this situation.
I was making the point on the notion that we might be alone in that vs animals. If you don't distinguish man from other animals, why would you assume that they couldn't?
... So what sort of non-human are you? 🧐
He's a cat.
Have you ever been close to a cat? I cant believe they can be wacky like this without some sort of inner monologue and intention.
My cat has thoughts. They're usually "today I feel like biting my owner because it's a load of fun"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpl5mOAXNl4
This video perfectly describes my cat... except the actual fur color. Because he's a snowshoe, not... whatever kind of cat species is in this video.
Dogs dream, and dreams are just thoughts.
Based on watching my Borzoi decide whether or not to sneak into the kitchen, I'd say yes.
I think that it's on a sliding scale. Some animals clearly have some kind of inner thought process, and clearly have their own personalities. Others not as much. I know that with cats, for instance, there are tools you can use that allow cats to communicate certain concepts to people, stings of buttons that are each linked to a discrete word. Cats can learn to string button presses together to 'say' things to their keepers. (Apparently the most common thing they ask for is clean water, so clean your cat's water daily.) That may not be evidence of "thought" in the way that you're thinking about it, but there's clearly some form of cognition going on there.
My cat understands a "now" "later" type of situation and strings actions with it. For instance "now play later food".
Edit: I taught him buttons and those are some of the choices
I used to have a cat who did this. He would lead me to the bathroom, jump into the tub, and then wait patiently until I turned on the bath faucet -- just a trickle!
I think so. I have parrots who are at a 4 year old human's intelligence level. They do things they know they shouldn't and wait for me to turn my back, it's like they know they shouldn't but have an intrusive thought and act on it. Of course, once I say "excuse me..." With the dad tone, they fly to their cages and pretend they did nothing. To me that takes thought and reasoning, desire, planning, action, etc. On their part.
Wait, you have a little voice in your head??
Not sure if meta or real.
Yeah you know like the devil and the angel of the cartoons..
So many people making stuff up they have no way of actually knowing in this comment section. No wonder religion is so widespread!
The true answer, unsatisfying as it may be, is that we have no way of knowing the subjective internal experience (often referred to as 'consciousness') of other humans, let alone other animals. For all we can know, a rock could have thoughts. We really, for now at least, can't know. Unfortunately.
I'm sure it depends on the animal. In fact humans think in at least two inner voices.
The ear consciousness is receptive, and the speech consciousness is active.
What I mean by this is a dog or another animal that spends a lot of time with people likely has a passive inner voice of their owner. A dog might hear an owner yell no when they go to do something the owner doesn't like, even if their owner isn't around.
Animals that are capable of speech such as a parrot, will likely have an active speech consciousness. Which is more somatic in tone.
For example, when I am in active speech consciousness I can feel my jaw and tongue muscles move. When in passive listening consciousness, my ears might move or strain to try to hear the inner speech.
With practice these somatic sensations can be decoupled from their internal sense consciousnesses. Which tends to help them quiet down and deepen meditation.
This is one of my favorite practices that's accessible for people who don't really meditate. The guided meditation is the first fifteen minutes of the video, so you don't have to listen for the whole hour to get an inkling of what I'm pointing at.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OW9LNSVjPo
They are like people who never learn language. This sometimes happens to deaf people who are not taught to use sign language. Any inference about such a person’s intellect and capacities should be abstracted towards mammals at least.
Why would anyone think that thought is unique to humans? Seems absurd to a frightening degree.
The voice in my head requires complex language and symbolism. I don’t doubt that they’re capable of thought, just like Helen Keller was capable of thought before having language, but I doubt that it’s like the “little voice” in my head.
No, at least not most animals. There was a study a while back that showed that animals think by reducing the world to a series of binary choice that they react to in the moment. I imagine it's a lot like when you're playing a sport or video game and things get very intense and fast paced; your inner monologue isn't telling you what your next move will be every second, you're just reacting on instinct. That's probably how animals see the world all the time.
That being said, "animals," is a broad category, and some of them may be capable of creating an abstract narrative for themselves. It was recently discovered that whale songs have a phonetic alphabet, which means their language may be as complex as ours. If that's the case, they may be capable of using that language to build an internal monologue.
I'm not sure about all animals, but I'm pretty sure my sphinx cat does. I have to give her medicine every day and not only does she knows when it's time to get it, but there are times where she will hide under the bed. Just laying down and looking at her and asking her to come out is enough to get her to wander over slowly and get it. It's funny, you can almost see the thoughts going through her head as she realizes she has to just give in and go get her pill.
I don't think they have an internal monologue. I think they just react to their senses.
But they can make plans, they have goal-oriented behavior that drives them to seek out a goal that exists beyond their senses. If I leave the house through the front door without giving my dog his customary distraction, he goes out the back door and around the side because he knows that, if I haven't properly secured the fence, he can get out through the fence to reach me. Nothing about that involves his senses, it's just something he's figured out.
Now, I doubt any part of that involves an internal monologue because they don't use language (even though they can, in fact, understand limited language). If they don't use it themselves, they probably don't figure things out in their heads that way, it simply wouldn't be very efficient. But they certainly possess more complex internal cognition than just "I smell food" or whatever.
When I solve the kinds of problems that animals have been shown to be able to solve, there’s no inner vocalization. I solve those problems using visual simulations in my head. I use virtual hands more than I use a virtual voice to solve such things.
I’m autistic.
To be honest, that's me too! (And I also might be autistic.) But I'm capable of thinking things out verbally, something I do particularly in regard to programming and architecture problems, or figuring out what to say to someone else. So it's a tool that's available to me. I don't think it's available to my dog, but I'll bet he's doing virtual paws.
I would say all living things have some form of thought and consciousness. Even those that lack brains like plants.
I think they do
How do you know other humans have thoughts? There is no way of measuring it, and there is no way to tell if someone is lying about it. You could measure brain activity. But There is no need for brain activity to be accompanied by experience. There is no law of nature that says that electrical signals are accompanied by experience or thoughts. There is also no way to tell the difference between a millimeter cube of brain from any animal. So if you believe that brain activity is represented by thoughts, then there is absolutely no way to draw an arbitrary line between humans and animals.
So i don't even think it's a question.
None of them have language beyond associating a small number of specific sounds or words to objects or events but I would bet my legs just above the knee down that Dolphins monologue "Squee-aww" when they spot a scuba diver. Dogs definitely daydream about you calling their name when you're away for a long time. If they couldn't in some way internalize the call then they would not remember it.
EDIT: To add onto my claim that they don't have language beyond a certain level, that's what we've been able to prove so far. We know that some of the smarter animals, such as dolphins, crows, and gorillas can understand quite a few words with daily training and even use and pass down taught language to limited capacity, but the longest experiments for complex languages with these animals have all resulted in "failure" to teach them or learn from them to the extent of being able to have conversations or form complex statements.
No, they operate on instinct. Our thoughts are in our own language, their only language is instinct and body language (barks included).