What book(s) has changed your life?
What clicked and made you have a different mindset? How long did it take to start changing and how long was the transformation? Did it last or is it an ongoing back and forth between your old self? I want to know your transformation and success.
Any kind of change, big or small. Anything from weight loss, world view, personality shift, major life change, single change like stopped smoking or drinking soda to starting exercising or going back to school. I want to hear how people's life were a bit or a lot better through reading and your progress.
TIA š
Two Vonnegut novelsāGod Bless you Mr. Rosewater and Player Pianoāfundamentally shifted the way I view the world.
The novels primarily discuss the economy, automation, and human wellfare. When I was young I defaulted to a laissez-faire economic mindset, and basically assumed automation and technology would always make our quality of lives improve. I was very much in the Ayn Rand club on economic and moral issues. These books were ultimately what made me reflect and consider the other "spiritual" (in the sense Vonnegut uses the term) aspects of human wellfare. Vonnegut was my introduction to humanist thought, and I owe the vast majority of my personal moral development to the influence of these two books.
Wow, stunning answer. Huge Vonnegut fan too btw.
I hated every particle of Playor Piano when I read it and still do today. Granted my field is automation and I am an engineer.
I am making the world a better place. Freeing humans from degrading filthy boring work. You know what really irked me the most about that novel? The population lived in a freaken utopia and couldn't say one good thing about it.
I would love to have the lives of those "workers". Think of what you could do with a life where your job required nothing out of you. Go have 8 kids, learn conversational French, become the world champion at the knife game. They start life on near the top of Maslow's hierarchy and the author had the gall to heavily handed compare them to chattle slaves. Yeah I am sure people getting sold for sex or getting whipped to harvest cotton all day are really comparable in lifestyle to people who are bored at work.
I spent several years working on manufacturing and logistics automation, and I urge you to reconsider your interpretation of it.
Just from your comment, you totally missed the point of the book. It's not anti-automation. Your analysis is the exact false binary Vonnegut is interrogating. The book is actually a response to the exact attitude expressed in on your comment.
I'm happy to go into it, but Vonnegut is the master; no one will say it like he does, but you have to be open to it. If you react defensively, you'll come away thinking he's just anti technology, and that he must be wrong because technology is good. If you reread it with an open mind, or even reflect upon it again, you might find particularly important insights for the likes of you and me.
Yeah this sounds like religion to me. Believe it is true and you will believe it is true. Also, you didnt address what I wrote, only the argument you think I was making
I don't fault your interpretation. There is a reason Vonnegut uses the term "spiritual" throughout the book. At least for me, I would describe my understanding of the book to have required a spiritual/moral shift before I could really understand the image being painted.
I also read God Bless You Mr. Rosewater first of the two, so maybe that colored how I interpreted Player Piano. It is a more direct argument that humans need to be cared for, independent of their economic utility.
So when I read Player Piano, it didn't strike me as an argument against automation (which, being an engineer myself, I am entirely for), but moreso as a warning that freedom from labor doesn't alone make a perfect life. Especially in the mid-20th century context Vonnegut was writing in, it's an argument against the "American" style of automation, wherein you displace people from their jobs and discard them entirely. They serve no further purpose to your economy, and since your society is tightly adjoined to the economy, they serve to purpose to society...
So it's not really a book about automation, if if I said that in my first post. It's a book about failings of American culture, which happens to be revealed through automation. It's about the inconsistency of a society where one's usefulness to others is determined solely by their labor, and where that labor is constantly sought to be devalued and eliminated, and what the end of that process looks like for humans who want to find meaning in their activities.
Wonderfully put. Couldn't agree more. It looks like you and I took away some very similar things and commented them in parallel.
A. The outcasts of that society weren't exactly homeless. The utopia Kurt describes is one with the largest welfare state of all time.
B. Maybe people shouldn't be friends with people who only like them because of what they can do for them at work. I am far from perfect but I don't think I would divorce my wife if she got laid off.
C. It isn't the best idea to tie your sense of self worth to one aspect of your life.
As I said they live in a utopia, getting better and better, but still complaining.
Are you saying that reading and interpreting the work of one of the most beloved authors in the English language is "like religion?" If so, you could not be more wrong. Reading, interpreting, and reinterpreting the work of those who came before us is actually the very core of any academic pursuit. It's the most basic description of what every single academic does with their time.
I did, actually. I could not have addressed it more directly. Let me do it again, but this time greatly expanding it.
It's been more than ten years since I read the book, but were Vonnegut a less subtle writer, that could be a literal line of dialog from one of the engineers in the book. I could imagine one of them defensively saying exactly that in an argument with the minister (whose name I forget).
You are frustrated that the engineers, through their ingenuity and hard work, have given the population a utopia, but the population is ungrateful. Your attitude is the same as the upper classes in that world. What you overlook is the world's inherently violent class structure, which is revealed as the book goes on. The lower classes in the books are relegated to meaningless existences in sad, mass-produced housing, physically segregated from the wealthy in Homestead. They are denied an active participation in society, made obsolete by the upper classes (wealthy engineers, which iirc are implied to keep it in the family), who control every aspect of society. Again, it's been a very long time since I read this so I'm hazy on the details, but in the book, some in the lower classes are trying to actively organize to challenge this class structure. They are brutally repressed. They are infiltrated by secret police, and when they rise up in protest, are met with state violence.
What you describe as utopia is actually a repressive regime that meets the subsistence needs of its lower classes in exchange for their unquestioning acceptance of the oligarchy's control of society, which they justify to themselves and to the lower classes as a technocratic utopia ("freeing humans from degrading filthy boring work," as you say), but which is also perfectly willing to subjugate the lower classes using deadly force if they dare to question the existing power structure.
How you describe the world is exactly how the regime chooses to portray itself, and how the upper classes, consisting of people like you and me, view the lower classes. In fact, viewing the lower classes as ungrateful for the upper classes' generosity is actually a staple of upper class attitudes throughout much of human history. At the beginning of the book, since we're only given an engineer's perspective, this is an understandable reading of the world. If you read the entire book and still finished it thinking that same thing, you completely and utterly missed the point.
You and I make technology for companies, which are mostly owned by rich people. Vonnegut is asking us to interrogate what the implied philosophy behind our work is, even if we do not intend it to be so. We try to make people free from tedious work, but if you simply ask the people who we're supposedly liberating from work, they hate us. This is not necessarily because they like the drudgery of their work, but because the wealthy people who employ us will simply lay them off, increasing corporate profits, but relegating the now-obsolete workers to the margins of society.
If the people you and I are "freeing ... from degrading filthy boring work" are actually further degraded by this so-called freedom, are we really freeing them? Maybe we should question how our society is organized if the people you and I work to "free" actually hate us for it, or as they'd put it, hate us for taking away their jobs.
If you made a utopia you would live in it. All those lower tiered workers choose to do so. No where in the book do you see them storming the Canadian border trying to get out, or setting up their own communes. Because why would they? They are at zero risk of starvation, zero risk of being homeless, zero risk of pathogens from sewage, zero risk of any of the other horrors the bulk of humanity has dealt with in the past. Entertainment alone is so inexpensive that you could use it as housing insulation. Who the fuck wouldn't want that!?
Hey tomorrow you no longer have to work in a sheet metal factory, you get a nice house in the burbs, you get work that requires zero effort, you get a cool car, all forms of media are cheap as dirt, your wife can stay at home if she chooses, you dont have to cook if you dont want to, your 3 kids go to nice schools in safe areas, and you have enough money to go to a bar every night. Your brain and energy levels are peak so you can engage in any hobby. Oh and the only catch is you can't literally try to overthrow the government. I know, so oppressive.
You yell about the violence in the system, has their ever been a government that didn't have that? Go ahead and pick the nicest government you like on earth and ask yourself what would happen to you if you starting burning down buildings and attacking the powers-that-be.
And your comparison about slave owners demanding gratitude is just plain wrong. An abusive parent and a good parent both will say that they are a good one. No one is the villain of their own story. That is why you have to look at facts. And the fact is that those workers had more material wealth and agency compared to chattle slaves.
One thing you got right, they do hate us. I am despised in pretty much every factory I show up at, but it's fine the feeling is pretty mutual and feelings don't change facts. These places are a mess of inefficiency, waste, and poor workmanship. I have production horror stories of the union metal shops. A few months ago I came to a metal shop for an upgrade and the machinist had a recliner in the shop. Spent about 6 hours on Faceboot and listening to conservative talk radio. I swept up a bit as I was heading out and he told me that he never cleans because it isn't his job, then sat in his recliner again.
I think the ending of the book summarized the author pretty well. The luddites had no idea how to replace the society they torched. Kurt didn't have any solutions, he had complaints, and I can't do anything with actionable items.
Unsurprisingly, I disagree with your interpretation of the ending. I think your interpretation of the whole book says a lot more about you than it does about Vonnegut or other people; it's misanthropic, unempathetic, and patrician to the point of infantilizing others. I suspect that our views on what we as humans need to be fulfilled, what true freedom really is, and how we should treat each other are so far apart that there's no bridging it. I hope you one day you reconsider. Until then, it's been fun chatting. Good luck out there, friend.
My view is simple enough. I want humanity free from bad things. Kurt's view is that people should be forced against their will to endure the bad. Which one is treating people like infants?
Me: bad things are bad, I am trying to remove bad things. Enjoy the world where you have everything all of the time. Where you can explore, create, procreate, screw, drink, and the only freedom you lose is one you never had to begin with. The freedom to break stuff.
Kurt: no, you must toil despite it being not required. Work shall set you free. Humans should work a job that they hate because it gives them selfworth.
How did that work out for Cambodia?
Your total unwillingness to critically engage with what you do for a living continues to say more about you than it does about Vonnegut.
Yes of course it is my fault and we should all just blindly follow what a hack writer had to say.
I know what I am doing and what I am about.
This is galaxies away from a good faith argument. You don't seem like a dumb person, so you're either engaging in bad faith for reasons all your own, or you're so defensive about any criticism directed towards your work that you don't realize how silly you're being. Either way, I think this is the end of the line for us. Hope you have a pleasant rest of your Sunday. I unfortunately have to keep working for a bit but will be done soon. Cheers!
This is what the third time you have decided to attack me instead of defend your position?
Discworld - Hogfather. In particular the speech of death about the little and big lies and how justice and mercy are simple human constructs and that in return we are basically responsible for our own happiness/misery. Since they made a movie, here exactly what I meant: Deaths speech
I was actually going to respond with the Discworld series in general, but Death's dialogue there puts it in a nutshell. We're not creatures of reason, but of narrative, fiction. I might not have come to that view if not for reading Terry Pratchett.
Designing freedom, by Stafford Beer
I'd been a software engineer for 15 years. In that time, in all the jobs I've had, I'd never once worked on anything that actually made people's lives better, nor did I ever hear anyone else in tech ever really dive into any sort of meaningful philosophical interrogation of what digital technology is for and how we should use it. I made a few cool websites or whatever, but surely there's more we can do with code. Digital technology is so obviously useful, yet we use it mostly to surveil everyone to better serve them ads.
Then i found cybernetics, though the work of Beer and others. It's that ontological grounding that tech is missing. It's the path we didn't take, choosing instead to follow the California ideology of startups and venture capital and so on that's now hegemonic and indistinguishable from the digital technology itself.
Even beers harshest critic is surely forced to admit that he had a hell of a vision, whereas most modern tech is completely rudderless
Definitely picking this one up. Great answer btw.
I'm so glad, especially given your username.
Aldous Huxley's Brave New World was the first dystopia that I ever read. I'd gotten so enamored with all of the various utopias in sci-fi, especially Star Trek, that the idea that the opposite might exist hadn't previously occurred to me. While it didn't change me in a day-to-day kind of way, it helped me make sense of the world around me. I have always loved Star Trek, but it never seemed like humanity was truly headed in that direction.
BNW, 1984, and others helped me understand the world around me, which I think made me a better person in the end. Am I going to be a party to the creation of these kinds of worlds, or am I going to try to help move humanity in the other direction?
Not a complete list, but maybe an amusing one ā
great list. Liber AL vel Legis is pretty wild
Cultboy got hella laid, but ended up a junkie though. As an aging dude I'd rather have Bob H's end times than Al C's.
for sure. orgies interrupt my nap time these days!
The law is a decent rule to attempt in oneās life.
Stranger in a Strange Land is so good.
Meanwhile, it's the only book I actively hate. I feel like it stole a fantastic name with a story that was too "I'm 14 and I am smart".
I probably would have loved it when I was 14.
Maybe I read it at age 17 and didn't much care for it.
I thought the martians were genocidal self-righteous assholes who I hoped the earth would nuke. The whole idea of thinking right meant doing things right and magically didn't sit with me for a second. You can just look around, all these really dumb animals and plants managing just fine. You don't need to know hydrodynamics to be a fish. And if magical thinking worked no way evolution wouldn't have exploited the hell out of it.
Still it was kinda cool to see a novel that merged sci-fi, the Gnostic Gospel of Judas, and Joseph Smith in one setting.
If anyone here liked that book go read the Gospel of Judas and have your mind blown.
Illuminatus is the most potent and interesting paradigm-shifting book I've ever read. It's like an epistemological shotgun blast, guerilla ontology indeed. Anything by R. A. Wilson is advisable, but this one really shakes you loose of your preconceptions and opens the door to new perspectives.
Illuminatus! is the political weirdness of the post-JFK-assassination period; extrapolated into a psychedelic occult fantasy; as interpreted by two white male porno writers; who were on some combination of weed, acid, plastic nude martinis, and coke for most of it.
It is very much a product of a specific time period and social situation.
I've probably re-read it more than any other book.
Wilson went on to write some good stuff, and some utter bullshit, and he's very clear on the fact that he's not telling you which part is the good stuff and which part is the utter bullshit.
I definitely have.
Honestly I don't think he wrote any utter bullshit, as such. Anything that could be described as such, was basically intended as such, with the explicit purpose of making you a specific kind of confused. In that sense, the bullshit itself was deeply profound, in a sense.
Everything is true, and false, and meaningless. I think really grokking that, which requires the intermingling of nonsensical-sounding profundity with profound-sounding nonsense, underlies an elusive sort of dynamic enlightenment.
But what the fuck do I know?
Some people need to hear that everything is a little bit bullshit.
Some people need to hear that some things are a lot more bullshit than others.
RAW was a lot better at the first than the second.
Some people huff their own farts, metaphysically speaking.
The second is a pit stop on the way the the first, which itself is a pit stop to yet higher realizations. Some people need to figure things out for themselves, they just haven't started asking the right questions yet. RAW excelled at assaulting you with more questions than you were really prepared to answer, and giving you the opportunity to try to figure out what he was really trying to say, without ever really giving you a solid answer. That's why re-reads are so satisfying: every time you read it, you've changed enough to dramatically redefine which parts are bullshit.
If you need to be told which things are more bullshit than others, you're not quite there yet. But it can still get you there, with enough iterations.
How did you like godel Escher Bach? Have it on my bookshelf, intending to read it eventually after my current stack.
It's dated, but it's still essential in connecting math & CS with art & literature. Hofstadter was in a great place to connect disparate fields that touch on related patterns.
His AI theories seem to have come out mostly as dead ends, but that might still change.
Very, very worth a read or ten.
Besides various scriptural books, "But He Never Hit Me" by Dr. Jill Murray.
I was up late one night, unable to sleep because of fear after my ex left. I didn't have cable or anything, but I had broadcast TV on to down out the silence. Dr. Phil had an episode about domestic violence, and my eyes were locked to the screen. The phrase that kept running through my mind as I watched was "at least he never hit me."
He had Dr. Murray on as a guest at the end, and my jaw dropped when I heard the title of the book she promoted. The next day, I mentioned it to my mom, who mentioned it to my brother, who worked at Borders. A few days later, I got a copy in the mail from him.
I started reading the first few pages and couldn't continue. It sat on my shelf for months before I finally opened it and slowlyāvery slowly for a person who used to read over a dozen books per weekendāgot through the whole book.
By the end, I had a name for what is been living through, and I finally realized I had done nothing significantly wrong in my marriage. It changed my life. For better, because it gave me the strength to avoid abusive relationship patterns. For the worse because that has turned out to be every single man I've tried to date.
Now I'm alone because I can't bring myself to try for any more relationships. And the fallout from trying to raise kids also raised by an abuser, and having a child with trauma-related BPD , has left me almost completely isolated from anyone.
But I have a very sensitive abuse radar now, at least.
My story is a little different, but I resonate with that kind of change. After I found out my ex wife was cheating on me, it started the process of taking a lot of blinders off. I feel like I see reality better, but I do feel much more disheartened in trying to date.
I forgot to mention, the life saving divorce, while I wouldn't say it change my life, was helpful at that time.
'Thich Nhat Hanh - Heart of the Buddah's Teachings'. I didn't become a Buddhist, but it gave me some really useful mental tools to be happier.
I had a bit of a fucked up childhood, left home at 15, was really angry & bitter for a while. I was already many years into a general attempt to let go and be happier, I believe the knowledge from that book has made me happier and more resilient.
Adding this to my bookwyrm!
Username definitely checks out :)
Haha. I've had this username for several years now, you're the first one to comment on it across a bunch of different accounts. I love my username. Haha.
I'm always a bit fascinated by why people choose their usernames. I usually go with one of my music production aliases, but on a whim I decided to go for Bleeping Lobster. Am I a lobster with a bomb in it? Am I a lobster who swears on daytime TV? Am I a lobster with a watch who slept through their alarm? It's a mystery.
Why did you choose yours, is it as obvious as I assumed or a deeper meaning?
For what it's worth, I assumed you were a lobster on Maury swearing up a storm about how you are not the father.
Around 5 years ago I started investigating my faith. I've always been sort of... Eclectic in that regard, but once I discovered the Dharmic faiths, it made a big difference in my life. Non dualism specifically. I chose the username because I made a new reddit account specifically for that sort of content. I was still really new to it at the time, and associated the branching out from my Christian roots with the same type of exploration people do when they're beginning to explore their sexuality. So it's a play on bi-curious. I wasn't Dharmic at the time, I was just Dharma-curious. Haha.
That's interesting, so how did you journey work out? Are you still Dharma-curious today, or do you feel you've gotten enough from it? I keep meaning to re-read the book I suggested, I've read it three times which is twice more than any other book I've read... but I reckon the lessons are difficult enough to make a key part of our personality that it takes a bunch of reads. I guess, that's why it's called a practice!
At this point, I'd say I am definitely a nondualist. I was raised Christian, so that flavors my outlook in major ways. I'm some weird mix of Hindu and Christian, and recently I've become very interested in Buddhism as well. I really enjoy the writings of Swamiji Vivekananda and Rama Krishna. A sort of universal view of religion, with many paths that lead us to God.
What about yourself? Do you subscribe to a particular religion or philosophy?
Also, related, do you recommend any Lemmy communities for this sort of stuff? I haven't found my esoteric and spiritual people on lemmy yet.
Unfortunately I can't recommend any lemmy communities for this. I've found a good one for general 'woo' like paranormal, UAP etc but not for spirituality (I'm not into paranormal stuff anymore as there's so often a logical explanation, but with UAP.... 99% have a logical explanation, that 1% which doesn't fascinates me).
I mostly see any given religion as an ancient, outdated 'how to live your life' manual that (imo) we should be well beyond needing. Like, I don't need a book to tell me that killing someone or stealing their bike is wrong! Also if I'm being honest I see them in modern times merely as systems of control, a way to manipulate large groups of people and steal either their money or devotion. Buddhism stands out to me in that regard as a genuine attempt to help people gain happiness and peace in their lives. Sadly as with many good things, there are people corrupting it (eg Myanmar). But after reading so many other religious texts, it's the only one that venerates the human and tries to get them to lift themselves to happiness. All the others are various threats, demands and commands to do this or that otherwise we'll burn for eternity.
"Animal Liberation" by Peter Singer, which argues against speciesism and the ethical treatment of animals, as well as "Eating Animals" by Jonathan Foer, which delves into the moral complexities of eating animals and factory farming. Both these books have convinced me to go vegan. I've been vegan for a decade now and don't regret it one bit.
As a side effect, I've also become more health conscious, because a strict vegan diet doesn't provide everything, so I did a lot of research into what I'm eating, what my body needs (and doesn't need) etc. As a result I feel like my health has improved a lot - my hairloss has mostly stopped, my complexion has improved, also I used to have a skin condition which is now under control, no depression episodes, and I rarely fall sick.
It's been an ongoing process of learning though. Most recently I've found out about Choline, which has a critical role in neurotransmitter function and affects your mood, and thankfully I found that my diet already has enough Choline in it, so it wasn't a worry or anything. But it's always interesting knowing what's in what your eating, things your body needs etc.
The Stranger by Albert Camus had a big impact on me as an adolescent, expressing feelings of absurdism that I previously had no words for. Snow Country by Kawabata Yasunari changed the course of my life by drawing me to Japan.
This Is Vegan Propaganda: (And Other Lies the Meat Industry Tells You) by Ed Winters. I think it's tough to read this book and not be vegan before it's finished, it's an extremely well considered and compelling book for for anyone who likes having their views challenged.
It changed my life profoundly in both outlook and actions, as it did everybody in my life who I suggested read it.
The seven habits of highly effective people. Sounds like a get rich quick book but itās actually a very profound book about what it means to be authentic to yourself and in your interactions with others. This book completely changed my life.
Thinking fast and slow. This book will give you insights into your own mind that are science based and actually explain so much of what we observe in the behaviour of ourselves and others.
I read The Power of Habit - Why We Do What We Do in Life and Business by Charles Duhigg
Not sure if it changed my life but when you mentioned your book about the seven habits of effective people I thought about this.
I think every once in a while about this habit self manipulation for your own advantage. Quite an interesting read for some though inspiration
Thinking Fast and Slow has a lot of really good info but man does it go on.
You might also like Behave by neuroscientist Robert Sapolsky if you haven't already read it. It's another book which explains a lot of why we are the way we are. Very interesting read; lengthy but still compelling.
Unlimited Memory: How to Use Advanced Learning Strategies to Learn Faster, Remember More and be More Productive - By. Kevin Horsley
This single book has affected my life and improved my day to day life. Although not all useful, it has some very useful tactics.
I don't forget stuff as easily, I can recall better for work, notes are minimal and if I do take notes its one or two word per item. Truly life changing especially while I was a student.
The Enders Game series had a pretty profound effect on my worldview, and also provided a big lesson on separating art from the artist because holy shit do some of the lessons I took away from that series seem to run totally opposite to Orson Scott Card's personal views and politics.
It's hard to say exactly what clicked where and what it changed for me because I read them in about middle school which is kind of when people are really starting to form real opinions of the world anyway.
Major takeaways for me include
A general dislike of war, even when it's justified you're going to end up doing absolutely terrible things and in retrospect there often really aren't good guys.
Politics are in their own way just as terrifying as war.
Respect for life, cultures, and viewpoints different from my own, and willingness to examine the world through those different perspectives. That doesn't mean I agree with them, or find them acceptable, or worthy of being tolerated, but I do think it's important to at least try to see why they think the way they do.
A whole lot of awe at the potential of genetic engineering, artificial intelligence, etc. tempered by distrust of my fellow man to use them responsibly.
I didn't enjoy the Enders Game series, but I did enjoy the Alvin Maker series, and it blows me away with how far that man's personal beliefs are from that of his books. Years ago I used to work with a girl who's family was close friends with his (same Mormon community and all that). She saw one of his books in my back pocket and went on a tirade about how people are unfair to him (because of the horrible things he said about his beliefs) and I immediately lost interest in hooking up with her like we'd been flirting towards.
If you really want to hate him read Treason. It is, well let me put it this way: they are not going to make a movie out of it anytime soon.
On the plus side we get to see him put a 19 year old boy in a dress, have him/her hide who they are, and get flirted with. Which explains a lot about Card's outspoken homophobic views. Yep nothing to see here. Just a perfectly normal story about a boy in drag written by a 100% straight guy.
Ok, so I have since passionately disavowed her ideas, but I did read the ENTIRE works of Ayn Rand at one point when I was right wing for a couple of years.
I list it as most influential because, one, it allowed me to understand what right wing philosophy was heavily influenced by during the late 20th century (and why), and two, when those philosophies proved to be egregiously wrong, it forced me to reevaluate my entire identity and belief structure which turned me into the particularly left leaning/socialist I am today.
In terms of books I'm still a big fan of, I love Aldous Huxley's Brave New World, BUT only when read alongside his "sequel" Island, which was his last book. It briefly articulates what Huxley believed a utopian society would look like (before said society is tragically ended by Nuclear Armageddon at the end of a hypothetical World War 3).
My view of her is basically
Even when I find something me and her agree on she words it in a way that I sorta don't want to.
Maybe integrity, that was the only thing that me and her sorta but not really shared. I try my best to show integrity in my work, to put thought and effort into stuff, but at the end of the day customers are going to demand stupid things sometimes.
Zen and the art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Robert Persig
I love this book, warts and all. The rereads get harder as I see more flaws in both the text and Persig himself.
Regardless, I can't deny the huge impact it had on my worldview. It helped me refine and improve the analytical mindset I take to the world around me and made me think routinely and deeply about what I value in my life and why.
I could see myself easily being obsessed with money and status at the point in my life where I am, and I'm grateful, in no short part to this book, that I'm not.
What is good? and what is bad? And who can tell us these things?
Persig does his best with these questions and gives you enough to put you on the same journey even if truly answering these questions is ultimately unachievable
Whoops, based on that prompt I was expecting the topic to be self help books. I will say The Seven Habits Of Highly Effective Teens (based on the adult version) changed my life when I was 13. "Begin with the end in mind" is such a simple little phrase, but it applies to EVERYTHING in life.
Basically, picture yourself at the end of the process and figure out the steps you need to take to get there. Work backwards until you get to the beginning, and that's where you start. I feel like I have more direction in life because I'm working to be the person I see myself as 5 years in the future.
My kids school has really pushed this. One time I drove my eldest to an activity and when we got there I noticed that we had forgotten our bag that has everything needed for the activity. Sigh. Long drive home and she announces "I should have checked to make sure the bag was in the car, beginning with the end in mind".
When I read Infinite Jest the first time I was in college I was dealing with a lot of "life's crossroads" type issues, some of which I didn't even know about until I looked back on them. The book helped me understand that I needed to stop relying on my "innate" talents and privileges and actually start putting in work for the things I wanted if I was ever going to have a hope of a good life. It also put into perspective a lot of substance use/abuse stuff in a really subtle way that ended up being very beneficial to me.
Now, on my second reading, there is none of the profound and personal wisdom present in the text. It is an enjoyable read, but for completely different reasons. I guess that first read was kind of just a "right place, right time" scenario for me.
2 years ago I read Divergent Mind by Jennara Nerenberg and it completely changed my perspective on the mental care industry and revealed, with studies and statistics, how women are systematically underserved when it comes to medical issues (both physical and mental). After reading that book it was like a big empathy door was kicked open in my brain that had been shut my whole life, and I suddenly started understanding some of the deep context behind the experiences of women in my life that I was previously never aware of.
The Earthsea ātrilogyā
The Autobiography of Malcolm X during middle school: it grew in popularity during the 90s when Public Enemy, BDP, X-Clan and other conscious rap was en vogue, but Malcolm's story inspired a lot of us during that era in learning more about Islam, Afrocentricity/Pan Africanist, and critically thinking about American politics and other socio historical issues through a different lens.
We Are the Weather: both made me reevaluate how diet & ethical eating impacts the environment both now and for future generations
"Lying" by Sam Harris made me commit to not ever lying again
I have told one lie ever since and even that was a slip-up; a person came to me on the street asking for money and instead of saying no I said I didn't have any cash which was untrue. I still keep secrets and I will lie if refusing to answer reveals the truth. I will still not tell the whole truth and sometimes I simply omit things I don't want to reveal but what I don't do is say things that are untrue and this applies to while lies aswell.
Only after I started paying attention to this mysef I realized how often we lie unecessarily and how damaging it can be to our relationships even when your intentions may be good. You're basically treating people as if they're so vunerable that they can't handle the truth so you lie.
The Godfather. Not that I'm in organized crime or anything, but the idea of not telegraphing what you're going to do before you do it I think resonated with me after I read that book however many decades ago. "Threatening" to do something just gives other people time to prepare for it. If you're going to do it, just do it.
Two texts by Seneca: "On the shortness of life" and "On Providence". The first one made me rethink the idea of "productivity" and the second one made me better at handling bad situations. But at the time I still felt crushed below the weight of a meaningless world, and then I read "The myth of Sisyphus" by Camus and my mind was blown. It was such an inovative way to deal with a world that doesn't answer back.
Also "Discourses" of Epictetus. If there ever was a book that was simple, elegant, and usable right away for a better life, this is it. I'd recommend this to everyone.
It's hard to single out specific works of Plato to stand on their own, I find the most value to be gained by having an overview of his whole philosophy, but "Protagoras" is my favourite dialogue, as it introduces some essential questions as to why are we so careless when taking care of our minds, and how nobody does bad things willingly (which is often repeated by Epictetus). Also the "Apology" is essential because it shows the basic thoughts that guided the greatest philosopher in the west.
There's a book I read as a teenager that changed my life in that it feels like a weird fever dream, and I've never been able to find it again. I had to wait for a manager at a furniture store for half an hour, picked up a display book from a shelf and as started reading. It's about a girl who has become orphaned, goes to live with her friend (who everyone calls her sister because they have the same birthday), and then the two of them run off together, end up getting adopted by possibly the literal devil, and are rescued by the friends maid, Olympia. French book translated to English, pretty sure. Loved that book, had a pretty big impact on me, and I've searched ever since. :(
When do you think you read it? Do you think itās The Hunchback Assignmets by Arthur Slade?
That's not it, but looks fascinating! I read it 15 ish years ago, but if I had to guess I'd say it was early 1900s setting or before.
Are there any other details you can remember? Iām kinda curious and would like to see if I can help you remember what it was. Was it somewhat historical or did it have more fantasy elements?
I think the authors name was a pseudonym, and something like Jaques, maybe? The title may have been something like Little Angels. Olympia was black, and a major caricature. She's very fat, and has a large bosom. It was a display book in a furniture store, so the cover/title/author may not be accurate, though.
I remember pulling up the Wikipedia article for the author at one point after reading it in ~09?
The little girl's friend was wealthy. Like, insanely sane. They leave and adventure, end up very bad off. Adopted by a very nice preacher and his wife, that turn out to be evil, and may have been the literal devil (which would be the only sort of fantasy aspect that I can recall), and Olympia bursts in at the moment and rescues.
That's really all I can remember. I've tried for years.
Stormlight Archive by Brandon Sanderson. The whole series really. The overall theme is change/growth. The books are chonky, and that gives him the room to do what he does best: character work. There's a range of characters with a broad spectrum of personality types and issues, so it's easy to find something that you relate to. Main characters with depression, PTSD, complicated pasts. And while they do grow and improve, it's definitely more realistic than a lot of books I've read. It's not easy or a straight path to getting better, and sometimes they stumble. But the books do a great job of showing that those things are completely normal and part of personal growth. The people around them give them the support we all wish we had, giving a good model for how we can support those in our lives.
Just a couple quotes that have stuck with me for years:
From Words of Radiance: "Keep cutting away at those thorns, strong one, and make a path for the light."
From Oathbringer: "Itās terrible,ā Wit said, stepping up beside her, āto have been hurt. Itās unfair, and awful, and horrid. But Shallan . . . itās okay to live on." ... "Wit?ā she asked. āI . . . I canāt do it. He smiled. āThere are certain things I know, Shallan. This is one of them. You can. Find the balance. Accept the pain, but donāt accept that you deserved it.ā
The pig that wants to be eaten - Julian Baggini. It's a book full of fun philosophical thought experiments. Enriched my worldview, and sparked my interest for philosophy.
It was a Dictionary from a Library it fell on my Head and i got Brain Trauma afterwards some Therapy Sessions still impaired.
Omg I'm so sorry
Whats your favourite word?
Deez Nuts
Two books that helped me understand the world better particularly when it comes to human behaviour. Both are terrific reads although can be difficult at times for different reasons, but strongly recommend both of them;
The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature by Steven Pinker is a great oversight of the science behind the biology of human (and animal) behaviour, explaining that it is a mix of nature and nurture (but leaning towards nature).
Without Conscience: The Disturbing World of the Psychopaths Among Us by Robert D Hare is a disturbing but easy read, and explains some of the worst of human behaviour, not just in the criminal justice system but also in politics and business
Hyperspace by Michio Kaku
Honestly, The Bible. No, I'm not Christian. I'm Agnostic. But so many fuckers who have read it love to wreck my life because of it.
So, you mean, it's changed your life because of the effect it has had in other people?
Precicely
Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus by Ludwig Wittgenstein. I was at university studying Philosophy and this short book clarified so much of my thinking.
Another one I have on my shelf, seems like a tough one to get through. Actually thinking Iāll start his āphilosophical investigationsā before trying the tractatus again
The basic idea behind it blew my mind when I heard about it at school the first time, but my god did I struggle to read it. I went statement by statement and only moved to the next if I felt comfortable with the previous one, and gave up eventually. Now that I think about it, it might be helpful to just read through the whole thing and then read it again in chunks, and then again in statements.
Rethinking Thin
The concept of calorie counting works. Just paying attention to how many calories all food has, results in changed behavior. At least, it did for me.
The Courage to be Disliked.
Itās a look at Adlerian psychology through the format of a conversation. Iāve looked deeper into Adler and donāt agree with some but the book changed the way I think about a lot of things.
Answered once already but I'll do it 99+ times if it exposes more people to understanding themselves.
How to Read by Mortimer J. Adler. Thought it'd be prudent to read it before trying to read though science journals. My mother was drinking dandelion tea blindly because she's body-concious and The View fed her detox woo-hoo magic.
That was likely the first instance I was aware, of my own volition, that I didn't know despite having had known 'how to read'. An introduction to the Dunning Kruger effect before I was aware of it.
The following 4 years was a spiritual speed-run that likely wouldn't have happened if I didn't read this one book. Not even the skills, but the connection to powerful ideas like philosophy, sociology, theological discussion, morals and purpose... And I'm still not done the back!
Special mention to video game Noita. Trying to resolve the lore and all the outside reading I undertook to do so unironically helped my awakening as it's deeply tied into the journey we all must endure.
The Xenogenesis trilogy (Liliths Brood) by Octavia Butler. It examines what it means to be human and how much of us can be changed before we're no longer humans anymore. It also made me examine how we treat other cultures/species through the lens of how the aliens treat the humans and how they are so convinced that their way is the right way that they don't even question it until it's forcibly shoved in their faces. It shows the ugly side to the violent human agitators while also eposing the ugliness of the peaceful alien "saviors".
There's also a side thread of connections are chemicals in our brain and we can get trapped by them and circumstance into a situation where we're not always sure we're happy/on the right side/have any agency.
They aren't long books and even years later I still think about them sometimes.
Ishmael changed the way I view society.
Empire of the Ants by Bernard Werber
This was the book that got me to stop hating books.
I didn't like reading as a child or teenager until I was forced to read this one for a mandatory book report in high school and really, really liked it. I don't know why, I don't even remember that much about the book, but it got me interested in science fiction and reading in general.
'Discover What You Are Best At,' by Linda Gail.
Spent most of my life thinking I just hated working. Got the book and found a career I enjoyed.
If you can wake up on a rainy Monday and feel okay, you've solved most of life's problems.
Shock for the Secret Seven. It's a kid's book that was given to me by my godfather. It was the book that made me fall in love with reading.
Ishmael, by Daniel Quinn.
Honestly reading nietzsche in college was mind blowing for me. Started with āthe gay scienceā and read like 3 more of his books in a row. Will probably reread his āgenealogy of moralsā again soon.
For the worse: I, Lucifer by Glenn Duncan. The eventual thesis stuck with me and changed the way I think about the world and my own relationship with the divine: That the only true way to show that you are an independent, free-willed entity is through perversity, intentionally making mistakes, doing things on purpose which you know are wrong. It's stuck with me, an invasive meme that I can't shake. I can't say it's made me a better person, but it's certainly made me more of one.
There's a great/stupid thriller by the same title. The heroine is Modesty Blaise, an international smuggler/crime boss turned free lance secret agent. Peter O'Donnell is the author.
The First Fifteen Lives of Harry August
Two books that I read in high school definitely changed my life: first was Big Sur by Jack Kerouac. There are intentionally misspelled words, almost no punctuation and very little traditional structure to his writing (it's about him having DTs in a cabin on the coast in northern California). I was literally not aware that you could write books and not follow the grammatical rules they teach you in school, I remember showing it to my friends like "Look at this?! Can you believe it?!"
The second book was Breakfast of Champions by Kurt Vonnegut, which also has a non traditional structure, is full of potty humor (and I'm not trying to be polite, it's the best way I can put it), is filled with doodles and is just fucking bizarre while also being very readable and funny.
Kids need to learn the rules of how to write, but they also need to be taught that rules are meant to be broken sometimes.
e. e. cummings did this for me with poetry. True masters of their craft know exactly the right ways to break the rules.
A comparatively mundane example, and possibly unremarkable to many, but I habe incredibly strong feelings about Spider Robinson's "Callahan's Crosstime Saloon" and "Callahan's Lady" series. In particular, I read them during an extremely difficult point in my life, and the eponymous Law of Conservation of Pain and Joy completely changed me and my motivation in life.
Jack London- Martin Eden
Babel 17 from Samuel Delany. It introduces me to language sciences, human sciences, and then humanism. It switched my point of view on all sciences, and on people too. But for people it also come from one or two other shorter novels from the same author. It was in the same book though. It somehow came during the holidays between high school and university, so like a coming of age thing. I will always remember it.
Another one is not from a book but a video game. Kotor2. At some point, you are asked by a ghost to take position. If you don't, you are answered "apathy is death", and all ghosts, friends and foe, attack you. It was almost traumatic : I learned with this that sometimes you cannot be neutral, you must make a choice that will have consequences, and you will still have to endure the consequences. I will always remember this : apathy is death.
Oh, also, that I almost forgot: le livre du courtisan (El cortegiano) from Baldassar Castiglione. It's a how to behave book from the XVth century. It's surprisingly well adapted to our own. It's surprisingly modern too, even regarding women (that surprised me the most). It's very positive, and very different from what we would have today, yet you see a bit of everything you could ask for today. It's been some kind of humanist compass since I've read it.
The glass bead game by Herman Hesse.
I grew up an intellectual in a family of people far less concerned with matters of the mind. Not bad people, just otherwise engaged.
A voracious reader since a young age, I had begun by my early teens to see connections between things that felt somehow strange, perhaps even wrong or oddly blasphemous. I felt like I didnāt understand things very well and that these connections were somehow a product of my ignorance. That I was perhaps guessing at something and getting it very wrong. I felt I had oversimplified a complex thing and although exploring those connections was always fun to do, Iād never speak of them.
The glass bead game thought me that my intuition was right, or at least shared by a number of people. That there is a fabric of from which reality is spun. These connections I was tracing are the product of the pattern recognition propensities of the human mind and as such they are a self fulfilling prophecy of sorts.
Is there a connection between The Art of Fuge and certain architecture? Yes there is, not due to some mystical thing I am ignorant of but because architecture is influenced by many things including nature, classical music, mathematics, art and music.
As a young person this image of human exploit and how it ties in with nature eventually weaving the two together into a harmonious whole was deeply satisfying and provided me with a feeling of sanctuary and belonging that lingers a still in my own work and in my art. It is a blueprint for my life.
Probably an obvious first answer here, but scripture did that. Not a lot to explain there, most of us know how that works. It's one thing to know about something, but to really get into it is another thing.
I agree. The Bible and the Koran have definitely impacted my life. For example, I pass where the Twin Towers used to stand about once a week, and my country used to give women control over their own bodies.
You say that as if everyone reads it the same way or reads it correctly or that by āscriptureā I couldnāt have meant something other than what usually comes to mind.
Also corpal punishment another contribution the Bible has made to the world. Encouraging adults to beat children.
That was a part of Torah-based approach to family that the Bible's revelations actually overwrote.
It should be noted the Torah itself was ahead of its own time because it was the norm to be able to kill children, which the Torah saw as barbaric. You could say they beat out the Greeks on this.
Spare the rod, spoil the child. Is endorsed by your boy Paul. You know the guy who supposedly wrote over half of the NT.
Except if the son was rebellious or if the child was of the enemy. Remind me what Jeremiah said again about rocks and children.
Paul is not "my boy", if anyone is Jesus is. Jesus is the messenger and takes priority over Paul, who is seen as trying to dilute the message. This shouldn't be unclear, we are talking about the main figure of the Bible versus a prosecutor of his people. Jesus asks us to spare the rod, even when the child is rebellious.
Another thing to note about the last point, it wasn't just any form of rebellion that led to this (in any civilization that wants a steady population, this wouldn't have been a practical teaching even if anyone wanted it to be law). It had more to do with honor. Meanwhile, the whole rocks and children verse is figurative.
Oh this argument again. Yeah without your boy Paul there is no Christianity. Perfect sacrifice, services on Sunday, the lifting of the Moses commandments, Baptism, the proto-Trinity, original sin, the basic organization of the church, the sliding position of women, over half of the NT, the doctrine of salvation, faith vs works debate. Guess who did all this? Without Paul there would be nothing. There was zero plan for the day after.
Also of course the Gospel writers borrowed from Paul, which I doubt you accept but truth doesnt depend on feelings. The Eucharist for example is highly likely to be either Paul inventing it or relating a story such that it would get popular.
Chapter and verse please.
Don't care about apologetics. I care about what the law says.
Just a prank bro!
None of what you describe had any necessary relationship to him. It was already a perfect sacrifice. There were already services on Sunday because that's when Jesus did his services. The Moses commandments were lifted by nobody, but Jesus himself provided commentary on how priority for them would play out. Baptism did not start with Paul or even Jesus, but Jesus popularized it when asking John the Baptist (whose name is literally The Baptist) to baptize him. The trinity was an interpretational teaching and optional (Eastern Orthodox people don't even have it and never did). The position of women was always culturally influenced. Jesus made the eucharist a thing, he literally said "the bread is my body and the wine is my blood". And Jesus first spoke about salvation and faith versus works (I can cite quite a few verses on this). You could say a thing or two about the organization of the church, but then again, there was Catholics versus Eastern Orthodox. As for the gospel writers, perhaps you forget how many there were.
And none of this is apologetics, so much as it's putting words in the mouth of the tradition to apply an absolute approach to interpretation.
As for the sparing the rod...
"Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it." ~ Mark 10:15
"Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven." ~ Matthew 18:4
"Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven." ~ Matthew 19:13-14
Agh all of this is wrong. Have you ever read your book?
According to whom? Paul. Paul was the one who said that.
Nope. Paul again because the Easter miracle happened on Sunday.
Again No. It was in Paul's letters. You can even trace the line of Pharisee thought (as documented in the Talmud) that led to his conclusion. There is a reason why Christians can eat pork.
Show that to me.
Again. His letters predate the Gospels and I never said Paul invented it, I said he popularized it. Baptism was a sorta off-shot of a related Jewish tradition at that time. If very well could have vanished as a fad.
Yes, I know. I said that. We see hints of the Celestial Jesus in the letters of Paul that evolved eventually into the Trinity.
Nope. If the timeline of events were true the ministry had women on near equal footing which Paul reduced steadily as he lived.
He didn't exist but had he existed he wouldn't have said that. Again Paul. The exact wording is off.
Actually the Gospels came out after Paul and his debate with James :)
Really? Show me Jesus talking about Bishops please.
4 cannon, and 11 non-cannon. Oh did you mean writers? Thousands. Nothing you saw in your KJV Bible even resembles what the original writings were like.
Not one of those supports your claim
See Luke 22:19-20, Mark 14:22-24, John 6:35, John 6:51-58, John 15:5, John 19:29-32, Matthew 22:34-40, and Matthew 12, a chapter literally called "Jesus works on the Sabbath". The events in the gospels came before Paul because Paul's conversion was after the last supper. To say his events came before the events in the gospels is very odd in an argument. You can't say "well the gospels were written after", that's like saying Canaanites came after the Hebrews because the Hebrews were written about before the Canaanites were written about. Things exist independently from writing about them.
Not really sure why you included the trinity as a thing anyways if it's not impactful as to whether it's true or not, it would be like saying Paul invented robes. Yeah, and? All three parts of the trinity exist, but seeing it "as a trinity" is not necessary.
When I said the position of women was always culturally influenced, I wasn't saying that in the sense that Paul didn't demote us in favor of men but that that was culturally a non-issue/moot. Paul said at one time we should wear coverings on our head, but that is extremely setting-exclusive, if depictions are anything to go by.
Paul was completely unnecessary with baptism popularization. Traditions don't just vanish like you describe. Or else we wouldn't have a John the Baptist to speak of.
The last verse I gave about children in my previous comment literally and explicitly denounces using any method such as the rod. If that doesn't support what I'm saying, then you've escalated this argument into a matter of understanding as well now, and I cannot explain something to someone who figuratively doesn't speak my language.
I'm surprised I actually agreed with someone on what good manners and good form are before witnessing the argument continue out of the idea I'm not "supposed to" agree with you according to your assumption of what I am. I ethically agree with you, take it or leave it.