"The whole Gaza Strip needs to be empty. Flattened. Just like in Auschwitz," Metula Mayor David Azoulai said in a radio interview on Sunday, according toThe Times of Israel. "Let it be a museum for all the world to see what Israel can do. Let no one reside in the Gaza Strip for all the world to see, because October 7 was in a way a second Holocaust."
How blinkered do you have to be to see the Hamas attacks on October 7 as akin to the Holocaust, but not see that your own determination to wipe out the entire people of Gaza resembles the genocidal intent behind the Holocaust?
I had family die in the work camps, die in the chambers, and die in the ghettos. If Gaza needs to become Auschwitz because you're trying to shoehorn the Holocaust into the conversation, then October 7th was the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, you sick fuck. This mayor either needs a history lesson, a reminder to respect his family who died senselessly for their heritage, or would even do best to sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up. These blood-thirsty assholes need to figure out how to goddamn listen when others are crying before they repeat history's worst atrocities.
Here's a word I used to hear in Hebrew school and history lessons all the time: scapegoat. Look around you and try to identify who the scapegoat is. It ain't us this time... Also, read the fucking room. If many of your most ardent supporters are Nazis, you're probably doing a Nazi thing.
I'm just reading this on Wikipedia:
In 1939, German authorities began to concentrate Poland's population of over three million Jews into a number of extremely crowded ghettos located in large Polish cities. The largest of these, the Warsaw Ghetto, collected approximately 300,000–400,000 people into a densely packed, 3.3 km2 area of Warsaw. Thousands of Jews were killed by rampant disease and starvation under SS-und-Polizeiführer Odilo Globocnik and SS-Standartenführer Ludwig Hahn, even before the mass deportations from the ghetto to the Treblinka extermination camp began.
They crowded those people in a small area with a high population density and they started to die of disease and starvation. Gosh gee, why does that sound so familiar? 🫠
🤔 I remember reading a book in school about a family that lived in the Warsaw ghetto. At the end of the book, an agency helped them smuggle the main character's baby sister out in a basket, and he remarked to himself about how he knew she'd never know who her real family was.
It always stuck with me.
Now, with all that context, that Poles where coexisting peacefully with Jews before the war, that countless of them have sacrificed their own lives and lives of their families to help them during their brutal extermination, even they now get called antisemitic when pointing out Israel’s tactics are no different than what Hitler did to them.
I'm not sure if anyone even cares anymore, and given how nukes are in the hands of most of the countries turning fascist including Israel, everyone on the planet needs to worry now.
Dude. I could be wrong, but I think the guy you're replying to is on your side. Are you raging at him or the mayor? Because it seems like the first
To me, it clearly seemed to be directed at the mayor.
Okay. I'm clearly in the minority. I'm not sure why it was a reply and not a top level comment, but I'm willing to go with it
That really is my bad. I wanted to reply to this quote which really stabbed at the heart of the problem and, for a moment, considered that I might confuse people by "speaking" directly to mayor for literary effect, but then decided I was being overly-anal. Sorry that I confused you, but yes, I was passionately angry at the mayor's mischaracterization of the situation in order to play the helpless victim. The only offense committed by !floofloof@lemmy.ca is perhaps one of underfloofiness.
Most of us here share your outrage. Peace, bro.
I may never recover from my outrage over the unfloofiness of this situation.
Maybe smoke less of the maryjayjay. Dude.
And if the death of, by the latest count, 764 Israeli civilians is a Holocaust, what does that make the death of 12,000 Palestinian civilians?
19000+ as of 4 days ago, and this is the minimum number since it only includes people Gazan hospitals physically counted.
19,000 is the total I've seen, but I don't think there are good figures on civilian vs. combatant deaths. I was assuming a very conservative 2:1, which I saw reported somewhere, but I assume the civilian share is much higher, given that at least 7,000 or more of the dead from Israeli attacks were children.
In any case the point is that if killing Israeli civilians is wrong then killing dozens of times more Palestinian civilians should also be wrong. It's a shame that most of the American political leadership doesn't see it that way and instead wants to send Israel even more weapons with which to murder a vastly disproportionate number of civilians to the losses suffered in Israel.
19,000 is the total I’ve seen, but I don’t think there are good figures on civilian vs. combatant deaths. I was assuming a very conservative 2:1, which I saw reported somewhere,
I think you might be misremembering; that 2:1 is the number for October 7th.
Seems like the vast majority of those killed in Gaza are civilians.
The IDF claims 7k were "terrorists" but of course no proof for that. So far they have said anything from "we have captured/killed a dozen Hamas fighters" to "they are surrendering in hundreds"... but in the former example, a family of 35 members all die and among them is maybe, somewhere in the rubble a single Hamas government official or Hamas errand boy... and the latter, well, we've seen the pictures of "hundreds of Hamas fighters surrendering" and they all seemed to be civilians who got tortured.
I think the IDF could barely kill any militant fighters and that's why they have no figures or bodies or photographic evidence or any way to verify whom they've killed. Add to that, the majority of those people killed in Gaza were in their homes or a refugee camp.
In the minds of those who see Palestinians as "untermenschen" - subhumans - their lives don't count the same as human lives.
(An Israeli government official quite literally and openly in a press conference deemed Palestinians to be "human animals").
This shit we're seeing is the violent expression of the most cold, cruel and extreme racism, all endorsed and even militarilly and diplomatically supported by the US (which is the ultimate hypocrisy from such loudly self-proclaimed defenders of "freedom").
Freedom (Terms and conditions apply)
And to actually say you wanted to recreate the horrors of it. Like explicitly say that. That's a special level of non-self-awareness.
Zionists are the new Nazis.
Treat Zionism like you would treat Nazism.
Treat Zionists like you would treat Nazis.
Israel has killed more civilians in 2 months than Russia has killed in 2 years, just to put things into perspective.
For some, "never again" means "never again let this happen to any People", to others, it means "never again let this happen to us". Unfortunately, it is much more common in the Israeli right to understand it the second way.
the Isreali right
The Israeli right: flatten the whole place, I want to salt the earth so they have nowhere to return to and they're destroyed forever.
Israeli moderates: the IDF can have a little white phosphorous, as a treat
To be honest, after the thousands of years of literally everyone else treating the Jewish people in that manner, I don't blame them for lashing out.
And don't waste your breath with that two wrongs don't make a right bullshit; in the real world they absolutely do, all the time. All punishment involves harming someone else and is therefore wrong to you twits. Harm isn't always wrong.
I only sympathize with the Palestinians because they genuinely are innocent. Dumbass groups like Hamas who think they can provoke others by enacting cruelties and then shift world focus on their enemies' reaction to them instead of rightfully blaming them for all of the chaos and destruction? Nah. Miss me with that shit. I'm not some rube who can be manipulated in such a manner the way the rest of you are.
It's all wrongs on both sides and always will be.
So you also don’t blame Hamas for what they did by that logic. Or is 100 years too short for your sensibilities, would another century of abuse help? Gaza is already worse than the Warsaw ghetto in the 30s-40s, when do they get their war crime pass?
Also, quick reminder that the current Israeli government has sent cash and resources to Hamas because people like you will see hamas’ behavior and think they aren’t the ones being provoked intentionally to generate a good causus belli for sociopaths to glass the region. The Likud party has in their mission statement that Israel will own the land from the sea to the Jordan river so Hamas isn’t the only party with “river to the sea” rhetoric.
I don't waste time blaming either side because it's a war they have been fighting for a thousand years and will keep fighting until one side successfully wipes out the other. Which means unless you want genocide, you'll have endless war.
Peace is not always possible or desirable, and that's a fact of life you need to learn to accept.
Now you can choose to get mad at me for telling you hard truths you don't want to hear, or you can find something better to do with your life than waste oxygen arguing with random strangers on the internet. Your choice.
Positive peace is always desirable unless you’re a person with violent tendencies. Obviously “peace” on its own bases its value on the conditions of the peace. You haven’t dropped anything but smug proclamations about the most basic philosophy 101 material.
I will say though , interesting way to waste your time on the internet, snarking people for wasting time on the internet.
Oh and here’s a little truth for you, you don’t use oxygen to type. You use it to speak.
Peace is not always possible or desirable,
Starting to sound more and more like excusing war crimes.
That's the way you sound when you accused BLM protesters of similar things.
🤔 Not sure I talked about BLM activists for years. Link?
I blame them if they are genocidal Zionists, and so should you. The rest are cool though.
By all indications Germans (at least their political elites and a large part of the population) seem to have learned "never again" as being "never again do this to Jews" rather than "never again do this to other human beings", hence they keep on giving unwavering support to Israel.
The racism never ended, all that happenned is that an etnicity who were "one of them" became "one of us", hence the continued support of Israel and their actions: it's "those like us" doing it to "them", hence different moral limits if any apply than if it was "anybody vs those like us" (as it was in the Russian invasion of Ukraine were even a fraction done to Ukranians of what is being done to Palestinians led this very same German leadership to impose sanctions and break its long standing rules and start providing military help to the victims).
If there is one (somewhat surprising) thing this situation in Gaza brough to light, is how Germany doesn't seem to have learned the absolute nature of the Evil of hyper-racist ultranationalist Fascism, instead it's all seen as relative, the Evil being not in the nature of the actions but in the specific etnicity of the Fascists and their victims.
For such people the limits on to the harm done to "them" are entirelly different of the limits on the harm done to "us" - it's the ultimate two-weights-two-measures and you can see that splattered all over Israeli propaganda (starting by the whole "it ain't terrorism if done by us" that anchors most of the messaging).
That said, these types being the full-blown german-style cold murderous ultra-racist Fascists, in their mind it's probably more "der ubermensch" vs "der untermensch" than "us" vs "them".
I think it's fucking dumb how the US supports Israel.
We only got attacked on 9/11 because of our support of Israel. Now we send them more support because they get attacked.
What exactly does Israel do for the US? Seems like being the main motivation behind the 9/11 attacks really outweighs any benefits they may have.
I don't see any benefits from supporting Israel, personally, as a United States citizen.
The US doesn't have a great track record of "not supporting distopian regimes". They've either installed leaders with a dictatorial bent when the elected government wasn't doing what they wanted, or just supported their puppet in the area even though they did horrific things. Generally they think "the end justifies the means".
Apart from WW2, I can't think of any major foreign operation that Americans were involved with that hasn't blown up in their face sooner or later.
Because it's assumed Israel's detractors also want to commit genocide, just on the Jewish people, who have largely been the victims of such throughout history.
Now the tables are turned and the world doesn't really know how to feel about it.
I'm pretty sure that the hundreds of millions of dollars that George W Bush personally owed/owes to the Bin Laden family, that they loaned to him to prospect oil in Texas, which he somehow failed at, was a bigger personal motivator than just our support of Israel up to that point.
You'd be wrong about that.
Just read Bin Laden's actual words. He never mentions "your president personally owes me money." Lol. But I'm all for seeing what evidence you have to back up your claims.
I didn't read the whole thing, but that...seems pretty reasonable to me.
Stfu disinformation. Read the wiki. These comments are so fucking dangerous in a world where people are denying the Holocaust ever happened and nobody knows the fucking difference between, Jews, Zionism, genocide, antisemitism, Hamas, Palestine, Israel.
"The agreement enabled Jews fleeing persecution under the new Nazi regime to transfer some portion of their assets to British Mandatory Palestine."
After they lost, they let them have some of their shit back and access to lower cost goods. This is not Zionist-Nazi collusion you irresponsible fucking cunt.
Seeking Lebensraum by evicting another party?
What one mayor said is only the tip of the iceberg.
You know you failed as a Jewish nation when the very museum dedicated as a reminder of your people's suffering and the holocaust which lead to the creation of your country is telling you you're a sick people.
I know there are many Israelis who are against what's happening and we shouldn't put everyone in the same basket, but man...
I really want the hostages to be returned safely and Hamas to take a hike, but it's hard to have any sympathy for Israel with how they acted towards Palestinians.
I know there are many Israelis who are against what’s happening and we shouldn’t put everyone in the same basket, but man…
I mean I see what you mean but Netanyahu is called the king of Israeli politics for a reason. They've consistently elected right wing genocidal maniacs.
We should remember that it’s the hard right government of Israel that perpetuates this, not the average Israeli. They are heavily indoctrinated and propagandized. They are victims too.
Is that what we should do for the Nazis? Have sympathy for them and the Nazi propaganda at the time? Mass killing is not ok period. Sympathy be damned.
If we let hate consume us, we become like them.
Lack of sympathy equals hate? No. Just because I do not empathize with somebody does mean I want them to experience harm. I'm just not gonna lose any sleep if they do. Sue me.
Yeah but. I mean. So were the Germans during WW2 under the Nazi regime. Is that really a good excuse?
Not an excuse. An explanation. Many are puppets repeating what they are told, and can be educated.
True, but they are the same people that keep voting in the far right. It's the same in many countries at the moment.nthe far right is not supported by all, but by enough to gain power.
Do all Americans deserve to suffer because low information voters keep electing Republicans?
No, but that's how democracy works.
You could widen it. Does all the world deserve to suffer as many voters in America choose to be low information voters?
They're competent adults, if they're voting. Nothing but contempt for any of them.
Netanyahu barely won the last election and is being prosecuted for corruption. Leading up to the attack he had months of protests against his government. Lots of Israelis agree he's horrible and shouldn't be running the country.
Get back to me when someone wins with a platform of treating Palestinians like human beings.
Until then, I wouldn't cross the street to piss on them if they were on fire.
Yeah, this is exactly why we should just glass Florida. No innocents there.
Dude, stop being a fucking child.
Nah, I have no sympathy simply due to the fact they chose to be a part of that so called society. It's not like somebody put a gun to their head and forced to move there.
Nobody forced them to live in the country they were born in?
Dumb fuck comments like these are why criticisms get automatically called antisemitism. What a stupid take.
Lol. Bullshit. Conflating Zionism with the interests of the entire Jewish population is choosing to deny any Jewish person their own agency. I do not advocate violence, period. However, some jerk that actually chooses to participate in a bigoted authoritarian society finding that's it's not all sunshine and roses and instead exposes them to potential danger and violence instead? Boo fucking hoo.
But, sure, pointing out the blatant similarities between Zionism and fascism is the problem. Yeah, whatever. Go on with your bad self...or something. I still have no sympathy for zionists.
The comment you were replying to is literally in reference to "the average israeli citizen". What the fuck are you talking about
Nobody (here) is denying that Zionism is modern day Fascism, certainly not me. But in the comment that I replied to, you are sure to say that nobody forced them to move there, but something like 80% of Israelis were born there. I imagine a lifetime of indoctrination is something difficult to overcome.
It's perfectly possible to be sympathetic to Jews as nationality and Israelis as citizens all while agreeing Israeli government and military are doing war crimes, despite the latter desperately trying to make you believe it's one and the same.
SMH, what is the world coming to when the Auschwitz museum is run by an antisemite.
/s
Maybe Congress should pass a bill condemning the Auschwitz museum for antisemitism?
Huh? Where in this story does Piotr Cywiński (director of the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum) say anything bad about jews or Israel?
He was even part of a counsel that supported the war.
Some random-ass mayor of a town of 1,693 people is calling for full-blown genocide. The Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum is simply stating that they do not agree in the slightest with those statements.
The joke is that any criticism of Israel is labelled anti-semitic by the propagandists.
It's a play on the recent revelations that many countries and organizations have adopted a definition of Anti-Semitism that includes criticism of the Israeli government.
I know the asshat who made the comments was just a nobody hick but I'm ecstatic the museum decided to reply to it.
If someone uses your name to justify cruelty, no matter how insignificant the person may be, it's always worth speaking up.
People could also take the Museum's silence on the matter as affirmation.
If someone uses your name to justify cruelty, no matter how insignificant the person may be, it’s always worth speaking up.
It's going to take an eternity for God and his son to get caught up on this.
Ah, so that means the Auschwitz Museum is... checks notes anti-Semitic!
Makes sense.
Correct ✅
Here's what everyone should be worried about given this talk:
Israel has nuclear weapons, and the U.S. has worked hard to ensure opposing countries like Iran would not be able to have them.
And now Israel's government is under the thumb of a bunch of genocidal maniacs who don't give a shit about anything.
I'm thinking we all ought to invest in civil defense, or have some kind of plan B.
Which is hilarious because for decades the party line has been to not allow the Iranians because they're not rational. They still aren't but neither is Israel.
Israel has right extremists in its government but it's still a democracy with functioning justice and free elections, as opposed to Iran. Not very different from the USA, who also had governments destroying the lives of millions of people, but it's still a (flawed) democracy.
Even when ethnic cleansing isn't actively going on, it's not a democratic state if any group of people native to the land are banned from voting, can't travel freely, and have a separate justice system that applies only to them. Iran wouldn't have been in the state it's in if the US hadn't staged a coup there because they didn't like the leftist leader people democratically elected.
Iran wouldn't have been in the state it's in if the US hadn't staged a coup there because they didn't like the leftist leader people democratically elected.
What is the point of your link? Can you not state what part of what I said that you disagree with? Regardless of what we might think of Iran now, it is a documented fact that the US & UK set the stage for, and then backed the coup against Mossaddegh to further the interests of their financial elites. My point was that the US is no paragon of democracy. If you want to disprove something about that, you should be more specific about what you believe was incorrect.
*small edit for clarity
Wars have been going on in Iran since forever. There was a brief slice of westernization for less than a decade in the 70s, those pictures of rich people in the capital city center everyone's oohs and aahs over, we did that. USSR was doing their best to exert their influence and turn Iran into a communist nation, and a handful of small groups were vying to take communism out of the equation. We funded them, although I'm sure money was coming in from more than one or two nations as Iran is a very important global geopolitical chess piece, and it eventually fell apart.
No, the US is not a paradigm of democracy, and yes we will do what we need to, to prevent anyone else from becoming the dominant global superpower. Expect war with China by late 2027.
Nobody's free until everyone is free. Apartheid governments are not functioning democracies.
And war crimes. Don't forget the long history of war crimes.
That's what my last sentence implied.
He's a fucking nutjob, but if Putin and his boy in NK aren't pushing the button, I'd wager you don't need to spend all your energy on this facet of what's happening.
I sincerely wish you were right, but those two are specifically why I'm worried.
Not going to tell you how to feel. Just that with all the likely terrible shit in front of us, you can focus your existential dread somewhere more concrete like water wars, trump 2, you know, something casual lol
Dude did not understand the assignment. Auschwitz wasn't made as a memorial. It was made by the Nazis and turned into a memorial later.
To create a new Auschwitz in Gaza as a demonstration of Israeli power is not to create a museum. Well it might be, but it won't be a museum to Israeli power anymore than Auschwitz is one to German power.
"terrorism can never be a response to terrorism."
Great words, but israel is proving them false.
Oh it can for sure, it just shouldn't
Wow is Israel the new Nazi state?
Has been for decades.
Israel did Lebensraum in 1949, so they've been a Nazi state since about that long ago.
Yes this isn't old news to be either. What's the point of redirecting?
To explain how Israel is not a new Nazi state.
Metula is a town of 1700 people. Probably not safe to assume that every random Israeli dildo that says something idiotic is speaking for the country.
The key will be if anything happens to that person as a result. Will there be any repercussions for him? If not, it is likely a systematic issue in their culture.
It reminds me of the whole "If you let a Nazi stay in your bar, it will eventually become a Nazi bar" allegory.
Israel seems to already have become a Nazi bar, for quite a while even.
Speaking of systemic cultural issues.
Seventy-two percent of respondents said they believed the Hamas decision to launch the cross-border rampage in southern Israel was "correct" given its outcome so far, while 22% said it was "incorrect". The remainder were undecided or gave no answer.
Yeah, definitely, the Palestinians are suffering immensely and have never had a means of finding justice for the harms they have suffered. I wrote this in another comment, but if the Israelis ever decide to pursue a path of healing instead of genocide, it is going to take a long time for the Palestinians to heal and recover from those harms.
What would happen? Israelis have freedom of expression and it's unlikely his disgusting comments rise to the level of a crime. Would you call that an actionable threat? He's about as close to decision-makers as we are. Like, when Lindsey Graham called this conflict a holy war against Islam, it was revolting but I doubt most were surprised that he wasn't legally punished. The most likely punishment is public ridicule and revulsion because there are few cases where people face legal consequences for speech.
The most likely punishment is public ridicule and revulsion because there are few cases where people face legal consequences for speech.
Yeah, and something tells me he isn't gonna get these things.
What tells you? Do you think the Auschwitz Museum isn't well-respected in Israel? Most English-language coverage in Israel seems to at least be prominently featuring the criticism over his statement.
It's because at least 50% of Israelis agree with him. That's the number of right wing voters.
What does "representative democracy" even mean amirite fellas
Which party ran on a platform of murdering or displacing everyone in Gaza? Most Israeli voters vehemently disagree with parties that ran on considerably less extreme platforms than that. Half the reason for the emergency unity government was removing those less extreme extremists from decision-making positions.
I mean right-wing parties generally run on not allowing a Palestinian state to be created, and on settlement of the West bank and "hard on Gaza" policies. They're not explicitly running on genociding Gaza, but that's what these things mean.
I can't find a recent poll about Israeli approval of the war (the most recent one I found was made in 19 November and had 88% approval), but the idea that Israelis are being forced to take part in this against their will is decidedly false; otherwise
Then why the move to pull the crazies out of cabinet? If what you're saying is true, there isn't a possible world where the public wouldn't want the crazies in there to carry out the genocide they've been covertly voting for. Why would the public support Benny Gantz, a moderate on Palestine, coming into cabinet? Why would he be so far ahead in election polling?
People saying that they support a war with Hamas is very different from saying they support the murder or displacement of all the residents of Gaza.
I see. I guess that does give me slightly more hope for the future.
A repercussion could also include him being removed from office if his constituents feel strongly about it. You use the example of Lindsay Graham. If America didn't have such deep systemic racist issues, a violent military-centric culture, or a strong Christo-fascist element in society, he would probably be recalled. As it is, genocide Joe, our government and much of the population seem perfectly fine with eliminating the Palestinians. Recently there has been stronger push-back. That is nice to see, but we still have a long way to do before we can develop a good cultural response against genocide.
I don't have any problem with there being consequences for his statement. I don't even know what options his constituents have to remove him, to be honest. I just don't think there's only one conclusion to be drawn from him not being punished. Notably in the case of Graham, you talk about his constituents. For Azoulai it's his culture. His constituents are 1700 people.
Do you think that all Americans support a holy war against Islam because Graham wasn't punished? Presumably not.
Why do you ascribe the belief to all Israelis here?
I'm not saying all Americans support this unholy war, but not enough are outraged that I think it is a sign of deep cultural problems in our society. Trump is the chief symptom of our insanity. Israel is also a sick society, and that person saying those abhorrent things without any negative impact on his life is a symptom.
JFC the article is practically just a list of referenced sources - congrats on your block.
I'd wager the vast majority of people in the IDF have similar sentiments.
Most of them are racist, sexist, right-wing scumbags.
Im done with this. I say we solomon this shit. If they can decide on who gets the baby or learn to share it, then we glass the whole area with nukes and nobody gets to live there.
A man of action. Let’s do it.
yeah yeah idf bad...we all know. but why support gaza...a place with no gay marriage, hardly any women rights, patriachy...overall shit position.
the main misunderstanding seems that just because idf is shit, there is absolutely no reason to support gaza. egypt and other muslim "friends" dont do it but the west off all is supposed to root for gaza?!? cant wrap my head around that type of thinking.
and wasnt it the arab league that ON DAY ONE of existance of israel held a meeting and made the decision to kill them all? "fRoM zEh rIva2 zeH sEa" is retarded.
This is your brain on identity politics.
You can disagree with people's views on issues but defend their right to self determination and...idk, being against them being wiped out? Especially because Gaza is almost half children.
so all palestinians are hamas?
lets ask shani louk. ...oh, a woman that hamas and palestinians spat on before killing here. yeah...you go root for evil and i go burn a palestinian flag as you say they are all in on this.
so all palestinians are hamas?
lets ask shani louk. ...oh, a woman that hamas and palestinians spat on before killing here. yeah...you go root for evil and i go burn a palestinian flag as you say they are all in on this.
It's not a team sport. And the day one war was because Israel declared both Independence and that Palestinians would leave or die. Which is what happens when extremists who have been committing acts of terror create a government.
leave what exactly? a place governd by the UK, right? hamas is nothing but scum. rapists. they abuse the children as shields. i dont see your argument really.
Their homes. It was a colony, not Liverpool. And again, it's not a team sport. The 20,000 dead civilians are not Hamas.
a place with no gay marriage, hardly any women rights, patriachy...overall shit position. the main misunderstanding seems that just because idf is shit, there is absolutely no reason to support gaza.
Women are being oppressed, so let's wipe them all out, including the women?
What the fuxk is wrong with you? No one is supporting Gaza or hamas, when they say there is disproportionate amount of civilian deaths happening in this war with International support.
no. lets not get caught up by their propaganda. hamas are not the nice guys at all.
How blinkered do you have to be to see the Hamas attacks on October 7 as akin to the Holocaust, but not see that your own determination to wipe out the entire people of Gaza resembles the genocidal intent behind the Holocaust?
I had family die in the work camps, die in the chambers, and die in the ghettos. If Gaza needs to become Auschwitz because you're trying to shoehorn the Holocaust into the conversation, then October 7th was the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, you sick fuck. This mayor either needs a history lesson, a reminder to respect his family who died senselessly for their heritage, or would even do best to sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up. These blood-thirsty assholes need to figure out how to goddamn listen when others are crying before they repeat history's worst atrocities.
Here's a word I used to hear in Hebrew school and history lessons all the time: scapegoat. Look around you and try to identify who the scapegoat is. It ain't us this time... Also, read the fucking room. If many of your most ardent supporters are Nazis, you're probably doing a Nazi thing.
I'm just reading this on Wikipedia:
They crowded those people in a small area with a high population density and they started to die of disease and starvation. Gosh gee, why does that sound so familiar? 🫠
🤔 I remember reading a book in school about a family that lived in the Warsaw ghetto. At the end of the book, an agency helped them smuggle the main character's baby sister out in a basket, and he remarked to himself about how he knew she'd never know who her real family was.
It always stuck with me.
Now, with all that context, that Poles where coexisting peacefully with Jews before the war, that countless of them have sacrificed their own lives and lives of their families to help them during their brutal extermination, even they now get called antisemitic when pointing out Israel’s tactics are no different than what Hitler did to them.
I'm not sure if anyone even cares anymore, and given how nukes are in the hands of most of the countries turning fascist including Israel, everyone on the planet needs to worry now.
Dude. I could be wrong, but I think the guy you're replying to is on your side. Are you raging at him or the mayor? Because it seems like the first
To me, it clearly seemed to be directed at the mayor.
Okay. I'm clearly in the minority. I'm not sure why it was a reply and not a top level comment, but I'm willing to go with it
That really is my bad. I wanted to reply to this quote which really stabbed at the heart of the problem and, for a moment, considered that I might confuse people by "speaking" directly to mayor for literary effect, but then decided I was being overly-anal. Sorry that I confused you, but yes, I was passionately angry at the mayor's mischaracterization of the situation in order to play the helpless victim. The only offense committed by !floofloof@lemmy.ca is perhaps one of underfloofiness.
Most of us here share your outrage. Peace, bro.
I may never recover from my outrage over the unfloofiness of this situation.
Maybe smoke less of the maryjayjay. Dude.
And if the death of, by the latest count, 764 Israeli civilians is a Holocaust, what does that make the death of 12,000 Palestinian civilians?
19000+ as of 4 days ago, and this is the minimum number since it only includes people Gazan hospitals physically counted.
19,000 is the total I've seen, but I don't think there are good figures on civilian vs. combatant deaths. I was assuming a very conservative 2:1, which I saw reported somewhere, but I assume the civilian share is much higher, given that at least 7,000 or more of the dead from Israeli attacks were children.
In any case the point is that if killing Israeli civilians is wrong then killing dozens of times more Palestinian civilians should also be wrong. It's a shame that most of the American political leadership doesn't see it that way and instead wants to send Israel even more weapons with which to murder a vastly disproportionate number of civilians to the losses suffered in Israel.
I think you might be misremembering; that 2:1 is the number for October 7th.
Seems like the vast majority of those killed in Gaza are civilians.
The IDF claims 7k were "terrorists" but of course no proof for that. So far they have said anything from "we have captured/killed a dozen Hamas fighters" to "they are surrendering in hundreds"... but in the former example, a family of 35 members all die and among them is maybe, somewhere in the rubble a single Hamas government official or Hamas errand boy... and the latter, well, we've seen the pictures of "hundreds of Hamas fighters surrendering" and they all seemed to be civilians who got tortured.
I think the IDF could barely kill any militant fighters and that's why they have no figures or bodies or photographic evidence or any way to verify whom they've killed. Add to that, the majority of those people killed in Gaza were in their homes or a refugee camp.
In the minds of those who see Palestinians as "untermenschen" - subhumans - their lives don't count the same as human lives. (An Israeli government official quite literally and openly in a press conference deemed Palestinians to be "human animals").
This shit we're seeing is the violent expression of the most cold, cruel and extreme racism, all endorsed and even militarilly and diplomatically supported by the US (which is the ultimate hypocrisy from such loudly self-proclaimed defenders of "freedom").
Freedom (Terms and conditions apply)
And to actually say you wanted to recreate the horrors of it. Like explicitly say that. That's a special level of non-self-awareness.
Zionists are the new Nazis.
Treat Zionism like you would treat Nazism.
Treat Zionists like you would treat Nazis.
Israel has killed more civilians in 2 months than Russia has killed in 2 years, just to put things into perspective.
For some, "never again" means "never again let this happen to any People", to others, it means "never again let this happen to us". Unfortunately, it is much more common in the Israeli right to understand it the second way.
The Israeli right: flatten the whole place, I want to salt the earth so they have nowhere to return to and they're destroyed forever.
Israeli moderates: the IDF can have a little white phosphorous, as a treat
To be honest, after the thousands of years of literally everyone else treating the Jewish people in that manner, I don't blame them for lashing out.
And don't waste your breath with that two wrongs don't make a right bullshit; in the real world they absolutely do, all the time. All punishment involves harming someone else and is therefore wrong to you twits. Harm isn't always wrong.
I only sympathize with the Palestinians because they genuinely are innocent. Dumbass groups like Hamas who think they can provoke others by enacting cruelties and then shift world focus on their enemies' reaction to them instead of rightfully blaming them for all of the chaos and destruction? Nah. Miss me with that shit. I'm not some rube who can be manipulated in such a manner the way the rest of you are.
It's all wrongs on both sides and always will be.
So you also don’t blame Hamas for what they did by that logic. Or is 100 years too short for your sensibilities, would another century of abuse help? Gaza is already worse than the Warsaw ghetto in the 30s-40s, when do they get their war crime pass?
Also, quick reminder that the current Israeli government has sent cash and resources to Hamas because people like you will see hamas’ behavior and think they aren’t the ones being provoked intentionally to generate a good causus belli for sociopaths to glass the region. The Likud party has in their mission statement that Israel will own the land from the sea to the Jordan river so Hamas isn’t the only party with “river to the sea” rhetoric.
I don't waste time blaming either side because it's a war they have been fighting for a thousand years and will keep fighting until one side successfully wipes out the other. Which means unless you want genocide, you'll have endless war.
Peace is not always possible or desirable, and that's a fact of life you need to learn to accept.
Now you can choose to get mad at me for telling you hard truths you don't want to hear, or you can find something better to do with your life than waste oxygen arguing with random strangers on the internet. Your choice.
Positive peace is always desirable unless you’re a person with violent tendencies. Obviously “peace” on its own bases its value on the conditions of the peace. You haven’t dropped anything but smug proclamations about the most basic philosophy 101 material.
I will say though , interesting way to waste your time on the internet, snarking people for wasting time on the internet.
Oh and here’s a little truth for you, you don’t use oxygen to type. You use it to speak.
Starting to sound more and more like excusing war crimes.
That's the way you sound when you accused BLM protesters of similar things.
🤔 Not sure I talked about BLM activists for years. Link?
I blame them if they are genocidal Zionists, and so should you. The rest are cool though.
By all indications Germans (at least their political elites and a large part of the population) seem to have learned "never again" as being "never again do this to Jews" rather than "never again do this to other human beings", hence they keep on giving unwavering support to Israel.
The racism never ended, all that happenned is that an etnicity who were "one of them" became "one of us", hence the continued support of Israel and their actions: it's "those like us" doing it to "them", hence different moral limits if any apply than if it was "anybody vs those like us" (as it was in the Russian invasion of Ukraine were even a fraction done to Ukranians of what is being done to Palestinians led this very same German leadership to impose sanctions and break its long standing rules and start providing military help to the victims).
If there is one (somewhat surprising) thing this situation in Gaza brough to light, is how Germany doesn't seem to have learned the absolute nature of the Evil of hyper-racist ultranationalist Fascism, instead it's all seen as relative, the Evil being not in the nature of the actions but in the specific etnicity of the Fascists and their victims.
For such people the limits on to the harm done to "them" are entirelly different of the limits on the harm done to "us" - it's the ultimate two-weights-two-measures and you can see that splattered all over Israeli propaganda (starting by the whole "it ain't terrorism if done by us" that anchors most of the messaging).
That said, these types being the full-blown german-style cold murderous ultra-racist Fascists, in their mind it's probably more "der ubermensch" vs "der untermensch" than "us" vs "them".
I think it's fucking dumb how the US supports Israel.
We only got attacked on 9/11 because of our support of Israel. Now we send them more support because they get attacked.
What exactly does Israel do for the US? Seems like being the main motivation behind the 9/11 attacks really outweighs any benefits they may have.
I don't see any benefits from supporting Israel, personally, as a United States citizen.
The US doesn't have a great track record of "not supporting distopian regimes". They've either installed leaders with a dictatorial bent when the elected government wasn't doing what they wanted, or just supported their puppet in the area even though they did horrific things. Generally they think "the end justifies the means".
Apart from WW2, I can't think of any major foreign operation that Americans were involved with that hasn't blown up in their face sooner or later.
Because it's assumed Israel's detractors also want to commit genocide, just on the Jewish people, who have largely been the victims of such throughout history.
Now the tables are turned and the world doesn't really know how to feel about it.
I'm pretty sure that the hundreds of millions of dollars that George W Bush personally owed/owes to the Bin Laden family, that they loaned to him to prospect oil in Texas, which he somehow failed at, was a bigger personal motivator than just our support of Israel up to that point.
You'd be wrong about that.
Just read Bin Laden's actual words. He never mentions "your president personally owes me money." Lol. But I'm all for seeing what evidence you have to back up your claims.
Zionists and Nazis have disturbing amount of similarities. The whole world knows it.
The predecessors of Netanyahu's modern coalition actively cooperated with Nazi Germany so... yeah.
Edit: Now that I looked it up the matter, while there's a lot of legitimate criticism the Havaara agreement is a lot more nuanced than I assumed.
Interesting. Have a link to more info on that?
Not OP but likely refers to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement
I didn't read the whole thing, but that...seems pretty reasonable to me.
Stfu disinformation. Read the wiki. These comments are so fucking dangerous in a world where people are denying the Holocaust ever happened and nobody knows the fucking difference between, Jews, Zionism, genocide, antisemitism, Hamas, Palestine, Israel.
"The agreement enabled Jews fleeing persecution under the new Nazi regime to transfer some portion of their assets to British Mandatory Palestine."
After they lost, they let them have some of their shit back and access to lower cost goods. This is not Zionist-Nazi collusion you irresponsible fucking cunt.
Seeking Lebensraum by evicting another party?
What one mayor said is only the tip of the iceberg.
You know you failed as a Jewish nation when the very museum dedicated as a reminder of your people's suffering and the holocaust which lead to the creation of your country is telling you you're a sick people.
I know there are many Israelis who are against what's happening and we shouldn't put everyone in the same basket, but man...
I really want the hostages to be returned safely and Hamas to take a hike, but it's hard to have any sympathy for Israel with how they acted towards Palestinians.
I mean I see what you mean but Netanyahu is called the king of Israeli politics for a reason. They've consistently elected right wing genocidal maniacs.
We should remember that it’s the hard right government of Israel that perpetuates this, not the average Israeli. They are heavily indoctrinated and propagandized. They are victims too.
Is that what we should do for the Nazis? Have sympathy for them and the Nazi propaganda at the time? Mass killing is not ok period. Sympathy be damned.
If we let hate consume us, we become like them.
Lack of sympathy equals hate? No. Just because I do not empathize with somebody does mean I want them to experience harm. I'm just not gonna lose any sleep if they do. Sue me.
Yeah but. I mean. So were the Germans during WW2 under the Nazi regime. Is that really a good excuse?
Not an excuse. An explanation. Many are puppets repeating what they are told, and can be educated.
True, but they are the same people that keep voting in the far right. It's the same in many countries at the moment.nthe far right is not supported by all, but by enough to gain power.
Do all Americans deserve to suffer because low information voters keep electing Republicans?
No, but that's how democracy works.
You could widen it. Does all the world deserve to suffer as many voters in America choose to be low information voters?
They're competent adults, if they're voting. Nothing but contempt for any of them.
Netanyahu barely won the last election and is being prosecuted for corruption. Leading up to the attack he had months of protests against his government. Lots of Israelis agree he's horrible and shouldn't be running the country.
Get back to me when someone wins with a platform of treating Palestinians like human beings.
Until then, I wouldn't cross the street to piss on them if they were on fire.
Yeah, this is exactly why we should just glass Florida. No innocents there.
Dude, stop being a fucking child.
Nah, I have no sympathy simply due to the fact they chose to be a part of that so called society. It's not like somebody put a gun to their head and forced to move there.
Nobody forced them to live in the country they were born in?
Dumb fuck comments like these are why criticisms get automatically called antisemitism. What a stupid take.
Lol. Bullshit. Conflating Zionism with the interests of the entire Jewish population is choosing to deny any Jewish person their own agency. I do not advocate violence, period. However, some jerk that actually chooses to participate in a bigoted authoritarian society finding that's it's not all sunshine and roses and instead exposes them to potential danger and violence instead? Boo fucking hoo.
But, sure, pointing out the blatant similarities between Zionism and fascism is the problem. Yeah, whatever. Go on with your bad self...or something. I still have no sympathy for zionists.
The comment you were replying to is literally in reference to "the average israeli citizen". What the fuck are you talking about
Nobody (here) is denying that Zionism is modern day Fascism, certainly not me. But in the comment that I replied to, you are sure to say that nobody forced them to move there, but something like 80% of Israelis were born there. I imagine a lifetime of indoctrination is something difficult to overcome.
It's perfectly possible to be sympathetic to Jews as nationality and Israelis as citizens all while agreeing Israeli government and military are doing war crimes, despite the latter desperately trying to make you believe it's one and the same.
SMH, what is the world coming to when the Auschwitz museum is run by an antisemite.
/s
Maybe Congress should pass a bill condemning the Auschwitz museum for antisemitism?
Huh? Where in this story does Piotr Cywiński (director of the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum) say anything bad about jews or Israel?
He was even part of a counsel that supported the war.
Some random-ass mayor of a town of 1,693 people is calling for full-blown genocide. The Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum is simply stating that they do not agree in the slightest with those statements.
The joke is that any criticism of Israel is labelled anti-semitic by the propagandists.
It's a play on the recent revelations that many countries and organizations have adopted a definition of Anti-Semitism that includes criticism of the Israeli government.
Bruh.
Man, it must be really easy to lie to you
They're just playing.
I know the asshat who made the comments was just a nobody hick but I'm ecstatic the museum decided to reply to it.
If someone uses your name to justify cruelty, no matter how insignificant the person may be, it's always worth speaking up.
People could also take the Museum's silence on the matter as affirmation.
It's going to take an eternity for God and his son to get caught up on this.
Ah, so that means the Auschwitz Museum is... checks notes anti-Semitic!
Makes sense.
Correct ✅
Here's what everyone should be worried about given this talk:
Israel has nuclear weapons, and the U.S. has worked hard to ensure opposing countries like Iran would not be able to have them.
And now Israel's government is under the thumb of a bunch of genocidal maniacs who don't give a shit about anything.
I'm thinking we all ought to invest in civil defense, or have some kind of plan B.
Which is hilarious because for decades the party line has been to not allow the Iranians because they're not rational. They still aren't but neither is Israel.
Israel has right extremists in its government but it's still a democracy with functioning justice and free elections, as opposed to Iran. Not very different from the USA, who also had governments destroying the lives of millions of people, but it's still a (flawed) democracy.
Even when ethnic cleansing isn't actively going on, it's not a democratic state if any group of people native to the land are banned from voting, can't travel freely, and have a separate justice system that applies only to them. Iran wouldn't have been in the state it's in if the US hadn't staged a coup there because they didn't like the leftist leader people democratically elected.
I think you need to brush up on your history a bit my friend, here's a good starting point: https://www.britannica.com/event/Iranian-Revolution
What is the point of your link? Can you not state what part of what I said that you disagree with? Regardless of what we might think of Iran now, it is a documented fact that the US & UK set the stage for, and then backed the coup against Mossaddegh to further the interests of their financial elites. My point was that the US is no paragon of democracy. If you want to disprove something about that, you should be more specific about what you believe was incorrect.
*small edit for clarity
Wars have been going on in Iran since forever. There was a brief slice of westernization for less than a decade in the 70s, those pictures of rich people in the capital city center everyone's oohs and aahs over, we did that. USSR was doing their best to exert their influence and turn Iran into a communist nation, and a handful of small groups were vying to take communism out of the equation. We funded them, although I'm sure money was coming in from more than one or two nations as Iran is a very important global geopolitical chess piece, and it eventually fell apart.
No, the US is not a paradigm of democracy, and yes we will do what we need to, to prevent anyone else from becoming the dominant global superpower. Expect war with China by late 2027.
Nobody's free until everyone is free. Apartheid governments are not functioning democracies.
And war crimes. Don't forget the long history of war crimes.
That's what my last sentence implied.
He's a fucking nutjob, but if Putin and his boy in NK aren't pushing the button, I'd wager you don't need to spend all your energy on this facet of what's happening.
I sincerely wish you were right, but those two are specifically why I'm worried.
Not going to tell you how to feel. Just that with all the likely terrible shit in front of us, you can focus your existential dread somewhere more concrete like water wars, trump 2, you know, something casual lol
Dude did not understand the assignment. Auschwitz wasn't made as a memorial. It was made by the Nazis and turned into a memorial later.
To create a new Auschwitz in Gaza as a demonstration of Israeli power is not to create a museum. Well it might be, but it won't be a museum to Israeli power anymore than Auschwitz is one to German power.
"terrorism can never be a response to terrorism."
Great words, but israel is proving them false.
Oh it can for sure, it just shouldn't
Wow is Israel the new Nazi state?
Has been for decades.
Israel did Lebensraum in 1949, so they've been a Nazi state since about that long ago.
Just an extension.
Yes this isn't old news to be either. What's the point of redirecting?
To explain how Israel is not a new Nazi state.
Metula is a town of 1700 people. Probably not safe to assume that every random Israeli dildo that says something idiotic is speaking for the country.
The key will be if anything happens to that person as a result. Will there be any repercussions for him? If not, it is likely a systematic issue in their culture.
It reminds me of the whole "If you let a Nazi stay in your bar, it will eventually become a Nazi bar" allegory.
Israel seems to already have become a Nazi bar, for quite a while even.
Speaking of systemic cultural issues.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/
Yeah, definitely, the Palestinians are suffering immensely and have never had a means of finding justice for the harms they have suffered. I wrote this in another comment, but if the Israelis ever decide to pursue a path of healing instead of genocide, it is going to take a long time for the Palestinians to heal and recover from those harms.
What would happen? Israelis have freedom of expression and it's unlikely his disgusting comments rise to the level of a crime. Would you call that an actionable threat? He's about as close to decision-makers as we are. Like, when Lindsey Graham called this conflict a holy war against Islam, it was revolting but I doubt most were surprised that he wasn't legally punished. The most likely punishment is public ridicule and revulsion because there are few cases where people face legal consequences for speech.
Yeah, and something tells me he isn't gonna get these things.
What tells you? Do you think the Auschwitz Museum isn't well-respected in Israel? Most English-language coverage in Israel seems to at least be prominently featuring the criticism over his statement.
It's because at least 50% of Israelis agree with him. That's the number of right wing voters.
What does "representative democracy" even mean amirite fellas
Which party ran on a platform of murdering or displacing everyone in Gaza? Most Israeli voters vehemently disagree with parties that ran on considerably less extreme platforms than that. Half the reason for the emergency unity government was removing those less extreme extremists from decision-making positions.
I mean right-wing parties generally run on not allowing a Palestinian state to be created, and on settlement of the West bank and "hard on Gaza" policies. They're not explicitly running on genociding Gaza, but that's what these things mean.
I can't find a recent poll about Israeli approval of the war (the most recent one I found was made in 19 November and had 88% approval), but the idea that Israelis are being forced to take part in this against their will is decidedly false; otherwise
Military service is more-or-less mandatory in Israel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Israel
Then why the move to pull the crazies out of cabinet? If what you're saying is true, there isn't a possible world where the public wouldn't want the crazies in there to carry out the genocide they've been covertly voting for. Why would the public support Benny Gantz, a moderate on Palestine, coming into cabinet? Why would he be so far ahead in election polling?
People saying that they support a war with Hamas is very different from saying they support the murder or displacement of all the residents of Gaza.
I see. I guess that does give me slightly more hope for the future.
A repercussion could also include him being removed from office if his constituents feel strongly about it. You use the example of Lindsay Graham. If America didn't have such deep systemic racist issues, a violent military-centric culture, or a strong Christo-fascist element in society, he would probably be recalled. As it is, genocide Joe, our government and much of the population seem perfectly fine with eliminating the Palestinians. Recently there has been stronger push-back. That is nice to see, but we still have a long way to do before we can develop a good cultural response against genocide.
I don't have any problem with there being consequences for his statement. I don't even know what options his constituents have to remove him, to be honest. I just don't think there's only one conclusion to be drawn from him not being punished. Notably in the case of Graham, you talk about his constituents. For Azoulai it's his culture. His constituents are 1700 people.
Do you think that all Americans support a holy war against Islam because Graham wasn't punished? Presumably not. Why do you ascribe the belief to all Israelis here?
I'm not saying all Americans support this unholy war, but not enough are outraged that I think it is a sign of deep cultural problems in our society. Trump is the chief symptom of our insanity. Israel is also a sick society, and that person saying those abhorrent things without any negative impact on his life is a symptom.
Its par for the course though
https://www.normanfinkelstein.com/fighting-amalek-in-gaza-what-israelis-say-and-western-media-ignore/
Got a legitimate source?
Which of the sources do you have a problem with?
JFC the article is practically just a list of referenced sources - congrats on your block.
I'd wager the vast majority of people in the IDF have similar sentiments.
Most of them are racist, sexist, right-wing scumbags.
Im done with this. I say we solomon this shit. If they can decide on who gets the baby or learn to share it, then we glass the whole area with nukes and nobody gets to live there.
A man of action. Let’s do it.
yeah yeah idf bad...we all know. but why support gaza...a place with no gay marriage, hardly any women rights, patriachy...overall shit position. the main misunderstanding seems that just because idf is shit, there is absolutely no reason to support gaza. egypt and other muslim "friends" dont do it but the west off all is supposed to root for gaza?!? cant wrap my head around that type of thinking. and wasnt it the arab league that ON DAY ONE of existance of israel held a meeting and made the decision to kill them all? "fRoM zEh rIva2 zeH sEa" is retarded.
This is your brain on identity politics.
You can disagree with people's views on issues but defend their right to self determination and...idk, being against them being wiped out? Especially because Gaza is almost half children.
so all palestinians are hamas?
lets ask shani louk. ...oh, a woman that hamas and palestinians spat on before killing here. yeah...you go root for evil and i go burn a palestinian flag as you say they are all in on this.
so all palestinians are hamas?
lets ask shani louk. ...oh, a woman that hamas and palestinians spat on before killing here. yeah...you go root for evil and i go burn a palestinian flag as you say they are all in on this.
It's not a team sport. And the day one war was because Israel declared both Independence and that Palestinians would leave or die. Which is what happens when extremists who have been committing acts of terror create a government.
leave what exactly? a place governd by the UK, right? hamas is nothing but scum. rapists. they abuse the children as shields. i dont see your argument really.
Their homes. It was a colony, not Liverpool. And again, it's not a team sport. The 20,000 dead civilians are not Hamas.
Women are being oppressed, so let's wipe them all out, including the women?
What the fuxk is wrong with you? No one is supporting Gaza or hamas, when they say there is disproportionate amount of civilian deaths happening in this war with International support.
no. lets not get caught up by their propaganda. hamas are not the nice guys at all.