Unpopular opinion: if you require disenfranchised voters to stave off a fascist dictatorship then you're already a failed state and are only kicking the can down the road.
There are probably a lot of people you love who require healthcare who are depending on that can being kicked further down the road until you have an alternative.
I personally think we can support Palestine without throwing our trans and gay populations, our immigrants, and our leftists to the wolves.
That's the thing. We aren't getting an alternative. We're getting fascism. Whether we slowly slide into it with the Democrats or speed run it with the Republicans we will have to deal with the issue.
obviously a slow slide gives people time to leave and it offers more chances for the fascist factions to cannibalize each other. From a strategic perspective you never go with the quick option unless you think you can win the fight quickly.
At this point I despair of winning this fight at all. As long as Amazon Prime Video keeps it's ads short enough, most people aren't even going to notice the cops turning ever more into a paramilitary force. The list of rights SCOTUS has broken for the cops during my lifetime is frankly amazing. Not one right from the 1st to the 8th is enforceable in our courts. You can't even protest without getting beat by the police. That fact alone should have the entire country in the streets.
We're already hemmed in, the alarms are already going off and the collective response is to just vote for the guy who lets the fascists organize for a few more years. We're already fucked, the goose was cooked in 2020 and we couldn't see it because Obama did actually try and none of us imagined Biden would just... not.
“And the other thing is I hate, they put out tapes all the time. Every night, they’re releasing tapes of a building falling down. They shouldn’t be releasing tapes like that. They’re doing, that’s why they’re losing the PR war. They, Israel is absolutely losing the PR war,” Trump said.
then make do with what you've got
No. This isn't what we have, this is what the wealthy elite have. We're not making do, we're drowning. We've been drowning. But everyone ignored the warnings so here we are.
humans have been making do with much less than what you have for hundreds of thousands of years. making do also does not necessarily exclude political action
That's right up there with, "better clean that plate, there's starving kids in China!"
It's that very history you mention that tells me it's time to stop supporting weak Democrats. Either we get someone strong enough to pull us back from the abyss or we're already fucked. This story has played out time and again from the Roman Empire to Post Colonial Africa. The compromise guy is put in charge and the authoritarian runs him over.
... so let's just speedrun it?
years ago, i lived in a community where someone had spray-painted the dumpster. it said something like "tear it all down and start over." i endorsed that at the time.
now i am way too invested in way too many people to see it go down like that.
Let's not run it. Let's march in the streets instead.
SCOTUS repealed Affirmative Action, overturned Roe vs. Wade, and left protest law up to the states due to the heavily conservative appointments made by Trump.
Trump’s tax cuts expired for the low and middle classes in 2022, but the larger tax cuts for the wealthy and corporations continue through 2024. Biden’s tax proposal begins in 2025, with cuts for the low and middle class, and heavily increased taxes on the wealthy and corporations.
Russia will succeed in their invasion of Ukraine if the US fails to provide support, which is Trump’s position.
Honestly not sure the situation for immigrants is that much better under Biden. Especially with the immigration bill from earlier in the year they tried to pass and the It Could Happen Here episodes about the border conditions under Biden. At least during Trump's term there were news reports and people were more active giving aid.
Really? Deporting adults and keeping their children in ICE detention centers only to physically and sexually abuse them is better? Trump was a monster to immigrants. We had nations around the world criticizing the crisis and crimes against humanity at our border.
I'm glad Biden ended family separation and has increased electronic monitoring over detention. Unfortunately, tons of people are still in abusive privately run immigration prisons. Many are dying during border crossings. Plenty of kids who immigrated are laboring in meat packing plants.
Biden continues many of Trump's awful policies, but because he does it in a quieter, more respectable tone he receives less backlash. The lack of support people get from us is stark and the abolish ICE movement has withering away.
Both these situations are bad. I think my point is less about the election and more that we collectively should do something about these conditions. Mutual aid, volunteer, harass a representative, just something.
You’re forgetting about the year and a half long open border policy after Biden repealed Title 42, while pressing Congress to do their job and enact immigration reform. The only reason he restricted immigration was after receiving pressure from sanctuary cities. The president shouldn’t be enacting Executive Orders to control the border. That is a direct result of the failure of Congress.
Same thing happened to Obama. The border crisis is a manufactured thing by Republicans.
You're not wrong. I guess the question is now whether you're ok with the consequences of not kicking it?
The don't think that far ahead.
Pithy comments that undermine their own stated aims are their entire contribution to the human experience.
They’ll have plenty of opportunities for pithy comments when Trump helps eradicate Palestine and Ukraine while tailoring the US for straight, rich, white, Christian Americans.
And the people who voted for Biden in the 2020 primary will have plenty of opportunities to claim there was nothing wrong with knowingly voting for a candidate they knew would be unpopular with people they were depending on in the general election.
The DNC has been a let down since Obama. Biden was only better than Trump in 2020, as he still is. That’s the only reason he won.
They don't think that far ahead
"Everyone I disagree with is stupid and wrong"
I considered America a failed state 25 years ago, based on nothing but the last century of modern history, from textbooks — before 9/11, 20 years and trillions of dollars bombing the middle east to ((surrender)), the GFC, surveillance capitalism, citizens united, the rise of Trump and unadulterated fascism, etc, etc.
Guess what the last 25 years has taught me? A majority of humanity are entirely incapable of seeing beyond what's directly and immediately in front of them! But sure... The people who saw this happening in slow motion, decades ago, are the problem! Whatever helps you sleep at night is all that matters.
People acting like if Biden wins, Trump will magically disappear and another even more insane republican won't immediately take his place and threaten democracy again.
I honestly think this is the closest to perfect time for the DNC to split and make a new party. They can easily start with at least 30-40 house members and maybe a few senators. The majority of young voters would probably opt to vote for them.
Suddenly they'd be forced to do coalitions to keep doing things, and republicans would lose voter base so fast they might even split themselves.
Suddenly they'd be forced to do coalitions to keep doing things, and republicans would lose voter base so fast they might even split themselves.
More like Republicans will all fall in line like they always do and win against a divided left every time.
Have you seen literally any multi party democracy ever?
Yes and in many of them when one whole side of the political spectrum is united , the other side loses badly. The American right wing has abysmally low expectations from their politicians and they fall in line anyways. It'll happen again.
Here’s a take… it would be infinitely worse under the GOP. At least Biden and Blinken have attempted to cool tensions and persuade Bibi to stop. They have, at a minimum, delayed some violence.
The argument isn't "don't vote for biden" it's "stop deflecting the harm your candidate is actively doing by pointing at someone else". Why is that so hard to understand? The fact the democrats want to die on the hill of commiting genocide and squashing student protests against it is their own fault, no one elses.
This isn't an election issue, since both parties agree on support for Israel.
Stop making it an election issue
This is a Congress issue, go protest at the house, or offices of your congressman.
It's an election issue if the people say it is. Otherwise we no longer live in a democracy.
Now you're catching on
Right I forgot I'm not allowed to have an opinion unless it's spoon fed to me by one of the two major political parties...
No, you're allowed an opinion, but you're starting to realize your opinion means Jack shit in your system unless you have lobbyists with deep pockets. Don't get mad at me bro, I didn't create the system
Oh but you did. I did too, we all did. And if we don't fix it you'll be right.
Enjoy president Trump. See how he handles Palestine.
Enjoy president Trump
So you admit that it is an election issue?
No, they’re replying to the claim that it is. If you attempt to protest the genocide at the polls, you’ll just end up with more genocide.
Right, so Bidens continued support of genocide makes it more likely that Trump will win
Therefore it is an election issue. Therefore, Biden needs to immediately change policy
That would be great. Just understand that election won’t have an effect on that at all.
Bidens actions have a direct effect on if he wins
If he wants to win then he needs to change his Israeli policy
We’re going in circles. Anyone who abstains from voting in protest of Israel support will be allowing someone to win that supports Israel more. It’s that simple.
If Biden's support of genocide makes him unacceptable, then people will not vote for him. They will not vote for trump either. Which means they will either vote 3rd party, vote uncommitted, or not vote at all.
All of which certainly increases the likelihood that Trump wins. Which is Netanyahu's goal.
Biden should change US policy on Israel to mitigate these losses. Otherwise he will lose Michigan, and likely the election.
The point is that, for many people, Never Again actually meant Never Again. Funding a genocide is a nonstarter for many who were taught that the Holocaust must never again occur
That’s only if people believe the lie that protesting at the polls will help Palestine.
No, it's because of the truth that continued support of genocide will cause Biden to lose Michigan and other states as well. Which means Trump wins.
To prevent that, Biden needs to change policy immediately
If people are mad at a government then they will not vote to re-elect that government. Which is how democracy is supposed to work. Not that it matters, because our democracy is not long for this world anyway
To prevent that, Biden needs to change policy immediately
You're arguing with someone who doesn't want Biden to change.
Enjoy engaging people in bad faith arguments.
"bad faith argument" the new buzz phrase to beat over the head of everyone who disagrees with you in 2024
No it really is a bad faith argument to try and defend Biden by mentioning Trump. It's literally a whataboutism.
"bad faith" "whataboutism"
You're just steeped in buzzwords aren't you. No wonder wrong think is unacceptable among young liberals, you all operate on the same bullshit, and call anyone who disagrees even a little bit a right winger, even if they're so far left of you that they left you in the dust
Did I say you were a right winger? I said you were trying to deflect from defending Biden because you don't have anything to defend him with. That rather presumes you're a Democrat at least.
What makes it not an election issue?
Is it the fact that many people consider it the strongest motivation for not voting for biden?
Is it the fact that people are putting in a lot of time and effort to change the position of one of the candidates before the election?
Is it the fact that people protesting against this around election time makes you unhappy the reason you think it isn’t an election issue.
Shut the fuck up. Stop talking and stop spreading this braindead take that is begging to remain at the pro-genocide status quo. You don’t get to decide whether or not it is an election issue for everyone.
I’ve seen and been at protests against my congressmen, mayors, state houses, and governors. People have been doing these types of protests since October. Just because the current wave of protests is campus occupations.
Also, if you think this is solely a congressional issue, you fundamentally do not understand what the president can do in a situation like this.
Great post to win over hearts and minds.
A post filled with hate, by a person claiming to oppose it.
True.... but I think we would have had more representation, as democrats would try to score political points.
It would have felt like we had some representation fighting against this, rather then 2 parties agreeing on a genocide.
You’re getting all the representation you can get from Senate and House Democrats. Schumer spoke against this in January. Bernie repeated last month, and so on. Congress is now divided on this as a partisan issue, but ignorance puts it all on the president, whose office has been in support of Israel in this conflict since it began under Reagan. A Republican in office would only escalate this into a war with Iran after Palestine is eradicated.
Going around Congress to ship weapons to Israel flies in the face of the helpless president narrative you're trying to paint here.
Source on congressional evasion? The last sale of arms was completed months ago and only supplied last month. The next shipment is currently on hold.
I didn’t see that. Thank you for the link. That was in December, before Netanyahu began indiscriminately killing Palestinians in Gaza, during the early stages of defense after the Iron Dome breach in October.
Going around Congress to ship weapons to Israel flies in the face of the helpless president narrative you’re trying to paint here.
I’m not painting a narrative. I’m simply aware that Republicans have historically emboldened Israel with the goal of an active war with Iran. They leverage Hamas, Hezbollah, and Houthis as justification to go hot with Iran. I’m still in stark disagreement that things would be better with Bush, or any other Republican in the presidency.
Democrats are speaking out though?
And getting called trump supporting russians when we do.
I believe they’re talking about Democrat electors, like Schumer and Bernie. No one here is against speaking out or protesting. The topic is voting. If people abstain, Trump will win. His unwavering base will make sure of that.
Also, you said you’re not a democrat. Which is it? Or do you just manipulate your stance to fit the narrative you’re selling?
Also, you said you’re not a democrat.
Oh cool. Where did I say that?
Is it in the same chunk of your imagination where you assume I support trump because I don't love genocide like you do?
I thought you had written that you left the party years ago. My mistake. Also, accusing people of loving genocide is despicable and further discrediting to you. Of course I’m passionately against killing of any kind, especially when targeting a specific group.
I’m not defending Biden’s support of Israel. This post is about voting, and yes, I’m absolutely reluctantly voting for him to keep Trump from a second term. You are either completely ignorant to the implications of your comments or you are actively trying to get Trump into office.
Also, accusing people of loving genocide is despicable and further discrediting to you.
You didn't care when you were accusing me of supporting trump and by extension genocide. So deal with it.
Of course I’m passionately against killing of any kind, especially when targeting a specific group.
But are happy to scream false accusations at anyone who isn't willing to pretend that Biden's support for genocide is acceptable.
I’m not defending Biden’s support of Israel.
Really? Because you acted like I was a single issue voter for just pointing out that single issue voters exist and that Biden needs to adapt.
Of course adaptation might involve dropping support for genocide, so I can see why that would make you angry.
This post is about voting, and yes, I’m absolutely reluctantly voting for him to keep Trump from a second term.
I very much doubt that there's any reluctance involved, unless he drops his support for genocide.
You are either completely ignorant to the implications of your comments or you are actively trying to get Trump into office.
I'm trying to get Democrats to stop being the Other Genocide Party. Which bothers you.
I’m not angry. In fact, I’m quite well adjusted. You should consider paying more attention to your well being and less attention to opportunities to attack and misrepresent others online.
Yeah, they're speaking out against the protests. Biden even got in on it with his short speech recently finger wagging the student protests, in case you were wondering how much democrats care about acting against genocide.
Everyone knows trump is worse. The answer to hitler is not hitler-lite.
What is the answer? People are commenting like they can just abstain and everything will work out. I’m commenting as an anti-Trump voter. Provide a suggestion that isn’t whining about bad choices and I’ll listen.
The answer is for people who voted for Biden in the 2020 primaries to apologize for putting us in this position. Otherwise they're just gonna do it again in 2028.
How would an apology for voting change anything in the next election? You’ve legitimately lost me.
It would demonstrate some self awareness from the people who created this situation. If they plan on behaving differently in the next primaries then it's worth it to hold my nose and vote for Biden again in the hopes of having someone substantially better in 2028.
The fact that there is no apology means whoever is elected in the 2028 primaries won't be any better. It's probably going to be HRC.
Are you talking about the DNC providing limited options in the primary, or those who voted in the primary? You can vote in any primary just by changing your registration. I’ve done it several times. I have no party loyalty. I’m loyal to my ideals and will vote in any primary that looks to benefit my ideals best.
You can vote in any primary just by changing your registration.
I'm not sure what your point is here.
My point is I don't think the 2028 primaries are going to produce a better candidate so I'm not motivated to hold my nose any longer.
The answer is to continue to pressure democrats, known as "the good party", to actually do good things they claim they want to do but refuse to actually do.
I completely agree. I’m only commenting against the inaccuracy of protesting at the polls. The topic of this thread and post is supporting Biden in the election, not in his support of Israel.
He called out elements of the student protest movement, not the movement as a whole.
Maybe if we policed the most unhelpful and destructive elements of the movement for ourselves, we wouldn't be in this situation.
He talked about these elements as if they were the entirety of the movement. It doesn't matter how much you police the movement, any jackass can make the movement look bad with the help of biden and the media pretending like they represent the movement.
The Columbia divestment spokesperson said they had no involvement with the group which took over Hamlin Hall, but stood in solidarity with them.
When the movement as a whole stands in solidarity with those who are weakening the movement, maybe Biden has a point.
Biden is arming and funding a genocide
He has no moral credibility and neither does the Democratic Party
We all know of his support. What you don’t seem to recognize is that Trump will be worse. Protest Biden’s support of Israel. Just don’t pretend that things will be get better by supporting Trump. We all know that’s a lie.
Also, the Republicans tried to pass Israel aid independent of Ukraine and Taiwan aid. Don’t pretend for a second that the Democrats in Congress are morally inferior to the Republicans.
The Democrats are arming and funding a genocide. Even George W Bush and Trump never did that.
Only one president in my lifetime ever armed and funded a genocide. That president is a Democrat and his name is Joe Biden
There were nearly one million deaths as a result of his two front war in Iraq and Afghanistan. You’re joking, right?
Trump has also made it clear that he would push Israel to finish what they started in Gaza.
What are the elements of the crime of genocide, and how were they all present in Iraq?
Gaza is worse than that abomination because of Israels clear intent to exterminate a people. Which is what makes it genocide. This isn't a war with an unacceptably large amount of deaths - its a targeted extermination campaign that is also engaging in ethnic cleansing and collective punishment
Sure I get that, but I would also point out that you aren't personally getting food into Gaza. Trump is going to tear down the humanitarian aid for Palestinians that Biden and the Democrats are working through the diplomatic process.
When Trump is elected and this genocide becomes a success, make no mistake, you will have had a hand in that, and I think you would lose that ability to criticize Biden.
the humanitarian aid for Palestinians that Biden and the Democrats are working through the diplomatic process.
This is not happening. It's a fairy tale
this genocide becomes a success
Already is.
I think you would lose that ability to criticize Biden.
I think everyone who voted for Biden in 2020, which includes me, is culpable for this genocide.
Unfortunately, the United States is not a democracy. It is a dictatorship of the oligarchs. Which means there is no way to influence policy on which the oligarchs agree. This Zionist genocide is one such example. Another is single payer healthcare. And workplace democracy.
This country is a hellhole whose living conditions will continue to deteriorate for the rest of our lives, much like they have since 1968. Voting for Biden or for trump will not change that.
Moving to somewhere like Denmark is the best possible option. No American should have any hope for this country. It is naive to think that Biden and The Democrats will do anything to meaningfully improve the country or the world. They are owned by the oligarchs - they just don't actively hate guys or women.
You are privileged enough to go to Denmark, that's great.
They aren't accepting over 300 million migrants. Just because you won't be paying the repurcussions for your helping the Trump campaign doesn't make you the moral beacon you pretend to be.
No, I can't go to Denmark, actually. Everyone who can go, should go.
This country is fucked regardless of who wins. Neoliberals like the Democrats have destroyed the United States and killed the New Deal. Which is inevitably going to cause this country to elect a fascist. If not Trump in 2024, then someone else in 2028 or 2032. There is no way out of this except for socialism, or, at the least, social democracy. Which is impossible, because our oligarchs will never allow such a thing.
You and I are on the Titanic. Neither of us are getting a lifeboat. Accept that.
This is Biden pressuring Netanyahu to stop killing American employees of a celebrity chef, after Israel had already killed all 7 of them. I'm glad Biden has a line, I guess?
lol that happened 3 hours ago. I hadn't heard about it yet.
Good. If Biden holds it until the election I'll vote for him. I'd prefer he hold it after the election too but I suspect he'll resume immediately following the results.
EDIT: Kinda ridiculous to say "Biden never did anything" and reference an article 3 hours old. Yeah, up until 3 hours ago he hadn't done anything.
Persuade Netanyahu to stop by sending him weapons unconditionally and vetoing ceasefire at the UN?
Fantasy land.
Maga assholes are having a grand time twisting the knife in this wound trying to drive a wedge in the voting block. It's clearly working.
The people who are drawing the line at genocide in Gaza are being disingenuous at best. Foreign policy is, believe it or not, far more complicated than people make it out to seem. Making every effort to de-escalate the conflict at the negotiating table comes before burning bridges with arguably our last and only stalwart ally in the middle east.
Sending Israel weapons doesn't look like a descalation strategy.
There were agreements already in place, and not sending at least some of those weapons was not an option.
That's just pure bullshit. Under the Leahy amendment they're not even allowed to send weapons to countries credibly accused of human rights abuses, and the state department's just sitting on those reports instead of following the law.
You could literally impeach the President over this, but obviously the majority of Congress is ok with the president breaking that law.
They’re right. The weapons agreement was already in place and paid for by Israel prior to any criminal accusations by the ICC. The subsequent aid was unnecessary, but it was the only leverage to get the Republicans in Congress to pass Ukraine aid.
You could literally impeach the President over this
You're telling me that the Republicans who have been grasping at straws for four years to come up with an excuse to impeach Biden are letting this impeachable offense pass them by? Sorry, but I don't believe you.
Republicans are overwhelmingly Zionists who would never criticize a Democrat for supporting Israel. If anything, they would impeach Biden for not sending Israel enough bombs and guns to use to murder innocent Gazans
Gee, sounds like we should really do everything we can do keep these Republicans out of office then.
Sure. Which leaves us with democrats. Who are the ones currently arming and funding a genocide
So you don't want Biden, but you don't want Trump either, but you can't have it both ways. No matter if you turn out to vote or not, you are getting one of those two choices. That's a fact. We're stuck in the Prisoner's Dilemma Election, and it's time to decide if we're going to play the game to win or not.
There's far more at stake this year than just the fate of Gaza, but shortsightedness is going to kill us.
Holy shit, genocide minimizing.
Scratch a liberal...
How is this minimizing genocide? I've acknowledged that it's a serious problem.
Why do you need an ally in the Middle East? America's not in the Middle East right?
That's the "complicated foreign policy" that OP is taking about. There are a ton of reasons to have allies all over the world, which surprisingly includes the Middle East. It could be for military, economic, informational, or other reasons.
Weird. Informational?
Sharing of information. They have info we don't, and visa versa.
Information about what
Literally, anything. Information has value. Allies have information and share it with their allies.
The Empire must be everywhere
Why do we need to sally out and defeat the enemy? The enemy isn't inside the castle walls, right?
Are you really so naive that you can't see value in making alliances with countries that don't directly border your own?
Wait, who is your enemy?
Whoever Netanyahu wants dead, of course.
Does causing unnecessary conflict create pleasure for you? It’s a pretty terrible character flaw. You should take a look at that.
Does causing unnecessary conflict create pleasure for you
Unnecessary for who?
Everyone. They generate conflict with every message by name calling and misrepresenting others’ positions to create tension.
So if they just say "I'm not voting for Biden or Trump in 2024" that would be better?
That’s voting for Trump. We all know his base is delusional and unwavering. With that knowledge we are charged with the responsibility to stop him. It’s not like sitting out will result in a third option.
People can vote for whoever they want. You're just generating unnecessary conflict here.
That anyone would use Trump’s non-theoretical fascism to goad a vote for Biden is offensive. These are the stakes and Biden still won’t listen. That’s on him.
No, that is one of the stakes. Single-issue voting is extremely narrow-minded, and Trump would undoubtedly make things worse in the single issue you’re emphasizing.
And yet single issue voters exist. Pretending they don't isn't going to work. Scolding them isn't going to work. The Democratic party and Biden in particular need to adapt.
So you’d rather destroy American and Ukrainian lives as well as Palestinian to prove a point?
So you'd rather support genocide and lose voters than not support genocide and gain voters?
Not a binary proposition. Support Israel and lose voters, abandon Israel and lose more and different voters. Diplomacy is hard. Politics is hard.
Part of the reason it's hard in this particular situation is bad actors pretending that geopolitics can be reduced to a soundbyte and that the problem is simple and easy.
Think you can do better? Run for president.
Support Israel and lose voters, abandon Israel and lose more and different voters.
So just making sure I've got this right. When potential voters say, "This policy of enabling genocide is a deal-breaker for me, I won't vote for you if you don't change this stance," they're being naïve about the complexity of politics and the current situation in Palestine, if not actually just bad actors, but when other voters say "I won't vote for you if you stop enabling genocide," they're playing 5d chess that us simpletons with morals just can't keep up with, right? Because that's basically what you've just wrote.
It's always the left who are being unreasonable for refusing to compromise, but when center-right genocide sympathizers refuse to compromise on their stance, tough luck, kid, that's just politics. The enlightened centrists here are shrieking about the end of democracy if you don't fall in line with them, as all the while they happily march down the path to the end of democracy.
Exactly. And nothing illustrates this better than the fact that nobody is apologizing for electing Biden in the 2020 primaries. Their political viewpoints are sacrosanct. Ours are petty and childish.
If Biden stops supporting Netanyahu's genocide, will he lose your vote?
EDIT: disregard. You answered elsewhere before I noticed.
They sure would.
Would you prefer that Biden lose as long as he continues his support for genocide?
You sure would.
These people would prefer for Biden to lose, and I'm quite convinced that they don't really care why or how. Genocide is the buzzword of the year, but if Israel and Gaza make peace tomorrow, all of these people will all have new reasons why Democratic voters should stay home or burn their ballots.
If Biden stops supporting genocide, who do you plan to vote for?
Oh make no mistake, I'm voting for Joe no matter what. The only alternative is Donald Trump, and Donald Trump wants to destroy the Republic. Joe could send American troops into Rafah to glass it today, and I'd hold my nose and go vote for him in November. That's just facing reality.
Would I prefer things were different? Of course, but however much legitimate criticism might be laid at Biden's feet for not doing more to stop the genocide in Gaza, Trump has already wholly endorsed completely annihilating the Palestinian people, and he wants genocide in the US besides.
So the kids are left with the following options: vote for Biden and genocide is permitted or let Trump win and even more genocide is permitted.
Faced with a shit sandwich, they chose an option that no one saw on the board: demand that the genocide end. I think that's pretty rad, but maybe others don't see it the same way. I admire the protesters.
I agree with protesting, just not at the polls. You would be choosing a worse fate for Palestinians, Ukrainians, and Americans in an attempt to make a point that won’t be made.
Don't get me wrong; I'll vote for genocidal-Joe, despite my extreme dislike of his policy toward Israel. I'm not stupid and neither are the kids. But the kids are still trying to force his hand and they should. I hope they vote for him too. But to threaten not to in an attempt to save Palestinian lives is a solid move. I hope they vote against fascism when the time comes. And I hope Brandon feels the pressure and changes his policy in the meantime.
I agree. Protest everywhere but the polls. The posted article, as well as the topic, is voting. That’s the only reason there’s such a disconnect in the comments.
I agree with protesting, just not at the polls
Then your agreement is worthless.
Explain to me how boycotting an election and allowing Trump to win will improve the situation in Gaza. You’re either ignorant to Trump’s support of Netanyahu, or putting ego in front of principle and would rather let more Palestinians die just so you can say you abstained.
I'm tired of explaining myself to people who aren't interested anyway.
So you make claims but can’t back them up? Maybe you should keep your comments to yourself if you can’t substantiate them, and take some time to learn some more about the topic.
If you're so interested in my perspective you can read my comments. You clearly aren't and you know it.
I’ve been. They’re vague and nondescript. You say a lot but make no real statements.
I understand it's a single issue but facilitating genocide seems like a big deal dontcha think?
Is it so crazy to want an option that's better than "not a total distopia"?
I wouldn't say that under Biden, be are living in a "total distopia".
I would, seeing as the president full-throatedly supporting genocide is seen as perfectly fine because other guy exists.
Where has Biden verbally supported Israel or their actions? What power do you think that he has that he can just stop everything? Do you think that he can just unilaterally end years of agreement and contracts for weapons? Do you think that any other President could have actually done anything different to change what's happening? The answer is likely no. No single President can control Congress, or make laws, or directly control another country's actions. Bernie could have won, and screamed until he was blue in the face, like he is now, and all of those weapons still would have shipped out this year.
We are not living in a distopia, so we're definitely not living in a total distopia. Maybe if you live in Ukraine or Gaza you could make that argument, but if you're in the US, it sure isn't distopia yet.
He's just fast-tracking weapons shipments to israel for them to carry out their campaign of genocide and pressing for even more support for israel.
Genocide, deteriorating Capitalism, a lack of Democracy, and crumbling Imperialism aren't total dystopia to you?
Must be nice to be privledged.
If that’s the only issue you’re voting on, do you want the guy that tries to stop it or the guy who says “go right ahead, do more genocide!”?
If that’s the only issue you’re voting on, do you want the guy that tries to stop it
That guy's not running.
That is correct. The options at the polls for Palestinians are bad or worse. Better is just not on the table. All the more reason that protests should happen elsewhere.
Okay, then I guess those votes aren't on the table either. Democrats have a tough choice to make: do they want to support genocide and lose votes or do they want to stop supporting genocide and gain votes? Why are voters being attacked for exercising their democratic right to vote (or not vote) as they please, but politicians whose entire job is to gain votes are excused for not appealing to voters?
You’re not punishing Democrats by abstaining. You’re punishing yourself to make a point that won’t be conveyed. I’m also not attacking. I’m making sure you are fully aware of the consequences you’re accepting by making whatever choice you choose to make. You do you. Just don’t pretend you don’t know what’s going to happen if you abstain.
The point is getting conveyed a hell of a lot more than by guaranteeing votes to democrats for their "greater boogeyman" strategy. If democrats are hellbent on keeping things terrible, then voting for them isn't really a solution. My plan is to vote democrats to give them as much of a majority as possible so they can have as little excuse as possible for when they don't do what they claim they want to do, but I can understand people who don't want to vote for them.
I’m not judging people who don’t want to vote. I’m commenting to ensure they have the knowledge that abstaining will lead to another Trump presidency, and what the last one looked like under the noise shield of his antics. If he’s their second choice, then they should absolutely abstain or vote third-party.
Everyone is well aware of this, democrats make sure to tell everyone this because it's their only strategy instead of listening to voters and actually improving things.
Genocide is an abomination. No human can ever support it.
If you believe in God then your soul is in incredible danger by accepting such a status of things. Which is a concern for many of us.
I agree. Protest this abomination. Just don’t dilute yourself into thinking that allowing Trump back into the White House would improve the chances of Palestinian survival.
Biden has made attempts to stop things, even if they are half assed. So the question remains, which do you support?
Biden has made attempts to stop things, even if they are half assed.
They're no-assed.
So the question remains, which do you support?
I'm voting for Biden.
Now I have a question for you. Is Netanyahu committing genocide?
Then you’re okay with the alternative? That’s fine, you are entitled to your opinion. The reality is we have a first past the post system. Wild to me that people are okay with another Trump term
I literally said in the comment you replied to that I'm voting for Biden.
I see you ignored my question as well, so I'll repeat it: Is Netanyahu committing genocide?
Man don't bother. These people aren't against genocide. They all have no problem with Ukrainian genocide or any genocide the Chinese want to carry out.
Ukraine isn't committing genocide, and the US isn't selling weapons to China for their genocide.
Netanyahu is committing genocide, and he's doing it with weapons we sold him.
Good Lord buddy, learn to read. Nobody said Ukraine was committing a genocide. Ukrainian genocide clearly means of the Ukrainian people. Or you under the impression that The Armenian Genocide was a genocide carried out by the Armenians?
Oh. Ok. Is the US supporting Russia in their genocide of Ukraine? Are we supporting China's genocide?
Because we're supporting Netanyahu's genocide. You love it and want it to continue, and that's the only reason you decided to ignore the rest of my comment.
Biden, his administration, and the bulk of the Democratic Party deserve every bit of blowback that they are going to get from their racist, bloodthirsty, gaslighting-filled stance on Gaza. The immorality of it all is bad enough, but it’s also just politically stupid given how so much of the electorate feels. I am painfully aware of the existential threat to democracy that this election poses. For Democrats to gamble US democracy itself on their desire to fuel a genocide is unforgivable. If this godforsaken country actually elects trump, it will be entirely the result of Joe Biden and the sclerotic Democratic Party leadership. We deserve much better.
You do understand that if Biden came down hard that that would result in him losing votes from independents and that he's doing what he can with an unwinnable situation...?
Why is all the pressure to compromise or accept bad candidates focused on the left? Why aren't you encouraging the main stream Democrats and "independents" to agree to stop aiding Israel's genocide to prevent Trump's winning? Why is it only progressive or the left that are required to vote against their conscience to save democracy when the center could just as easily compromise to prevent fascism?
Cuz that's how it's always worked. The center's never saved anyone in their lives from anything. That's why they're in the center. They don't take a stand. They don't fight for justice or equality or plurality. They're in the center. They're complacent. They're easily steered. You can't lead by never taking a stance in the first place. You can't want to be led by somebody who's never first.
That's why they're in the center. They don't take a stand.
The center is taking a stand right now. In favor of genocide. I didn't know they could, either. Guess they were just looking for a cause that they firmly believe in that excites them.
No they're not. They're not taking a stand at all. They're just standing back and watching impassively like they always do.
Circumventing congress to sell Netanyahu weapons is not standing back and watching impassively.
Running interference for Netanyahu at the UN isn't standing back and watching impassively.
Voting overwhelmingly to not condition aid is not standing back and watching impassively.
Voting overwhelmingly to fund Israel while they are committing genocide is not standing back and watching impassively.
Claiming that those who oppose Netanyahu's genocide have ties to Russia isn't standing back and watching impassively.
Centrists have finally found an issue that they won't immediately abandon at the very first sign of opposition.
That whistling sound you are hearing is the sound of the point you miss completely.
Sorry, I'm not going to pretend that centrist Democrats are benignly bungling into this. They're enthusiastically supporting genocide because it's all they've ever wanted.
But why can't I impose my own beliefs on people who have no beliefs!? It's not fair!
Yeah of course it's not fair, but refusing to vote for the least bad available option is insanity when the stakes are this high. These people are beyond children and will lead our entire species to its end.
of course it's not fair, but refusing to vote for the least bad available option is insanity when the stakes are this high
That is literally the only way to get politicians to support the policies and issues that you want them to. The only thing you have that they want is your vote, they only way you will move them on an issue is if you convince them they won't get it otherwise.
If you think the pro-genocide orange man is going to care more about your desires than Biden, I have bad news for you...
If you think the pro-genocide orange man is going to care more about your desires than Biden, I have bad news for you...
Nobody thinks that, but he is not going to make it worse. Israel is running their pogrom at the exact speed they want, Biden, and therefore the US, are not doing anything to slow them down. He gives some minor admonishment and his staff leaks to the press the he is "frustrated with Netenyahu" as if that matters. They say they will sanction some of the illegal colonizers in the West Bank, but then a couple weeks later decide not to. We continue to give Israel bombs and missiles and any other help they need in their mass murder. We are building a pier in Gaza so we can get aid past the Israeli blockade but then Biden says it will be under the control of Israel, so it will not be any more effective than any other crossing. Netenyahu wants the war to continue as it is preventing his corruption charges and the longer he can continue the better chance he has of getting his judicial and government reform in place to further consolidate his power and eventually quash any chance he will be held to account. Forcing the Democrats to actually make policy and take action to resolve the apartheid in Palestine is the only potential path in our broken political system. If you are so concerned this is going to hand Trump victory then start pressuring the centrist Dems to enforce a ceasefire now. Gain the youth vote, gain the anti genocide vote.
Independents are not automatically centrists. They are simply people who don't identify with either party. Chasing the mythological centrist voter is how we got here.
Edited because Auto Correct really doesn't like independents?
It's funny that his solution to this "unwinnable situation" is to support genocide. Just a woopsie by the old man I guess.
Just a woopsie by the old man I guess.
You've got the genocide excuser and the genocide enthusiast running... who do you choose for the least bad outcome?
This is our reality. None of us like it, but you're being idiotic.
If you can excuse genocide, then go for it. But for many people it's too much.
They didn't say they are excusing the genocide. They said that the Democrats and their candidate are excusing the genocide, while the GOP and their candidate, are actively frothing at the mouth to speed it up.
If he stops supporting genocide, who will you vote for?
If Biden stopped supporting genocide I would vote for Biden again.
“If I’m talking about electric vehicles and climate change, and then (a student) asks me, ‘What about all the emissions caused by the bombing of Gaza?’ I’m like, well, you know, can’t help you there,”
Maybe you need a better answer than that?
The emissions that would continue or escalate with Trump in office? He’s worse for everyone except rich white industrialists.
SCOTUS repealed Affirmative Action, overturned Roe vs. Wade, and left protest law up to the states due to the heavily conservative appointments made by Trump.
Trump’s tax cuts expired for the low and middle classes in 2022, but the larger tax cuts for the wealthy and corporations continue through 2024. Biden’s tax proposal begins in 2025, with cuts for the low and middle class, and heavily increased taxes on the wealthy and corporations.
Russia will succeed in their invasion of Ukraine if the US fails to provide support, which is Trump’s position.
I could go all day, but you get the point. Abstain or vote third-party if you’re looking to invite this back into the White House.
Agreed, any of those are better answers than, "Welp, ya got me there."
Just trying to help out anyone else who can’t speak to the difference in the candidates.
Well that's the most frustrating part of the campaign. Biden is making all of the same mistakes Hillary did when it comes to motivating the base and young people. It's like watching your grandma try to check her email. What should be a simple thing turns into an exercise in patience, but if you try to help, she gets belligerent and acts like you can't possibly know anything she doesn't.
Biden is bad at articulating his message. That trickles down to his volunteers. There's never been a more important election in our lifetimes, and Biden is making unforced errors.
Are you sure you've read and understood what I wrote? Because yes, I still believe it, because none of that refutes my point.
He would rather lecture than listen.
It's such a dumb simplification and false question, what's he supposed to do? Pull out charts demonstrating that unchecked hamas bombimg canmpaigns against Isreal would be less carbon friendly?
What the person is saying is I don't care about the environment or any other issue so I'm going to disrupt you talking about anything else
I'd love to see them locked in a room with the just stop oil protestors that pour oil on the road trying to cause accidents - battle of the delusional egomaniac single issue voters.
How about "We're not going to agree on every issue, or support everything that Biden does, because this isn't a cult. Biden is imperfect, and we need to speak loud so that he hears our concerns. But it won't matter at all if Biden loses the election. He won't be able to do anything about anything if Trump wins, and you can be damn sure that everything you care about will be worse if that happens.
So yes, we are all of us concerned about what Israel is doing in Gaza. And we are concerned about climate change. And we are concerned about equal rights, the rule of law, foreign interference, immigration, the economy, water, food, energy, and housing, and a vote for anyone but Biden is a vote for catastrophe."
How do you sell a genocide supporter to people who want to stop the genocide? Why not give them an option to not support the genocide?
Some people seem way too okay with there being two bad choices for president.
Others seem way too resistent to any attempt to make one of those choices not bad.
There's a difference between being okay with something and begrudgingly working with circumstances while simultaneously criticizing people who give up because things aren't perfect.
I'm not okay with Biden being the best candidate, but that doesn't make abstention a viable voting strategy.
Begrudgingly working with circumstances and giving up because things aren't perfect can easily be the same thing. That criticism has got to come with some cognitive dissonance.
What the fuck are you talking about?
"giving up" takes many forms.
Well yeah, but that's a pretty broad spectrum. Giving up by not participating at all is a higher degree of apathy than "giving up" by realistically evaluating your situation and recognizing that participating in a deeply flawed system will still have a chance of moving the needle in the direction you want it to go, or at least stopping it from moving the other direction.
Right, so I wouldn't equivocate students protesting staunch support for a genocide as 'giving up'. These are specifically people trying to move the needle of a deeply flawed system.
To quote old song, they're 'young people speaking their minds getting so much resistance from behind.'
by realistically evaluating your situation
Your only acceptable measure of that is if I vote for Biden which makes me unable to realistically evaluate my situation by definition. There's no point in making this argument. We aren't going to see things the same way. One of us has to compromise. If you can't see it's moderates and liberals turn to make some serious and material compromises leftwards then you never will.
No, that's not what I'm saying at all. The situation is that you will realistically have two choices for president. Voting for anything other than one of those two choices is effectively pointless as it will have no impact on the outcome except to withhold a vote from one of the two candidates that are going to win.
Anything else that you choose is symbolic at best but effectively meaningless.
If there's a plan for a better outcome I can white knuckle my way through a lot of situations in life. Sure, shit happens and sometimes we just gotta deal with it but if I feel like this isn't something we're going to be able to avoid in the future I want to opt out entirely. Think of a camping trip where the tent is leaking. If we're not planning on replacing the tent I don't want to go camping again.
So with Biden sure I can white knuckle through it if I think 2028 primaries are going to produce someone better but they won't. You can blame "young voters" if you want. Personally I point to the fact that nobody is apologizing for voting for Biden in the 2020 primaries. If they're not apologizing that means they don't see how their decisions negatively impacted me or don't see a problem with negatively impacting me so they're going to repeat the behavior.
I'm not interested in white knuckling through that. People are free to keep camping with a leaky tent I won't stop them but I won't be participating any more than I can control.
Please don't respond with some kind of counter comparative example or taking my made up comparison to some kind of scientific degree. It's just a conceptual tool for the purposes of the conversation. Telling me it doesn't apply isn't going to change the way I view the situation or my decisions.
If I get the sense that 2028 would somehow be better I'd reconsider.
Even though you preemptively asked people not to provide a counterpoint, I feel the need to highlight a problem with your analogy that you seen to already be aware of.
Your position of "I don't want to go camping anymore" is a fantasy. The only way to achieve that is to emigrate to another country. The real situation is: you're going to sleep outside. Do you want a leaky tent or a ragged old tarp? Those are your only two choices. If you do not make a choice, then you are leaving the choice up to everyone else.
If you're okay with that, then sobeit. It is your right to opt out of participating in the political process, but that doesn't change which tent you're going to end up sleeping in. If you're an American, you're along for the ride whether you like it or not. Your choice to opt out does not change the outcome, it merely cedes control to everyone else.
I tend to agree with your main point though. I'm pretty exhausted with everyone around me selecting the same deteriorated tents that we've been using for the last 50 years because "that's the only way enough people will select it over the moldy tarp" instead of considering a new one that actually works, or at least has fewer leaks.
Telling me it doesn’t apply isn’t going to change the way I view the situation or my decisions.
That's fine. Enjoy our camping trip.
The phrase "there are 3 bad choices for president" is true, but is so hilariously reductionist. I'm not saying you, in particular, are evaluating it through this lense, just that there is a difference between the "bad" here, and it's really, really obvious.
It is a reference to the two party system that constrains the election to what is often considered the picking the lesser of two evils.
Jesus fuck I thought I was cynical but this take by CNN is like, weaponized cynicism.
Young Democrats face Gaza blowback as they try to mobilize students for Biden
Perhaps instead of trying to mobilize students to support an active genocider, they can go fuck themselves instead?
I guess the people pushing this don't understand elections because Russia hasn't had real ones in so long? Or is it just the new wave of idealistic anti intellectualism? 'I have a moral cause so I don't need to meaningfully interact with reality!'
Ooooo, "idealistic anti intellectualism" huh? Well check out the big brain on Brett, you're a smart motherfucker!
Basically you're talking to a wall with these people
It's ok, Trump is on deck to take over as soon as you let him. That's what you want, right?
'What do you mean by "Why do you keep beating that straw man to death?"'
Oh I didn't realize you were a lemmy.ml account. I should have just blocked you to begin with.
You won't be missed
If the students vote for Trump over Biden because of how he is handling Isreal they are severely misinformed.
I’d like us to just remember the Iran hostage crisis and the Carter/Reagan Election. Carter negotiated in good faith to try to get the US hostages released. It didn’t work because Reagan had paid the Iranians some $40 million through Earl Brian to keep the hostages until after the election. Just an hour or so after Reagan was sworn into office, the hostages were released. This tipped the scales of the election.
Why do I bring this up now? Because the situation with Israel and Gaza is bad for Biden. He knows it and seems to be trying to do something to stop it. However, it is really in Trump’s interest, and even seems to be Israel’s plan anyway, to keep the war going as long as possible. For all we know, Trump is paying off Israel to not agree to a ceasefire.
So, just keep in mind who is being hurt by the situation and who has more to gain from the war going on indefinitely.
Netanyahu wants Trump to win and is acting accordingly
Israel's actions make much more sense when viewed through this lens
seems to be trying to do something to stop it.
What evidence exists of this?
I wonder how many of them vote anyway
Clearly enough vote that Biden's chances in 2024 are looking less likely by the day.
I mean that'd be true even with a single voter who decided not to vote. I was just wondering how many would've voted to begin with. It's not usually that many
Youth voting is at an all time high so...
That's not saying much
lol well I don't blame them the way Boomers have fucked everyone over for decades so here we are.
Eh kids learn to vote over time. Older people weren't huge voters as kids either. It just means nobody really listen to kids' voices because they don't matter but it is what it is
it is what it is
Yep. Boomers voted to mortgage everybody's futures and continue to do so. Nothing we can do about that but hope they don't burn down the planet on their way out.
Well there is voting ofc but kids don't really go for that. Every generation seems to figure it out only later
Well Boomers do vote and they vote and they reliably vote to mortgage everybody's futures because they're a selfish trash generation.
Unpopular opinion: if you require disenfranchised voters to stave off a fascist dictatorship then you're already a failed state and are only kicking the can down the road.
There are probably a lot of people you love who require healthcare who are depending on that can being kicked further down the road until you have an alternative.
I personally think we can support Palestine without throwing our trans and gay populations, our immigrants, and our leftists to the wolves.
That's the thing. We aren't getting an alternative. We're getting fascism. Whether we slowly slide into it with the Democrats or speed run it with the Republicans we will have to deal with the issue.
obviously a slow slide gives people time to leave and it offers more chances for the fascist factions to cannibalize each other. From a strategic perspective you never go with the quick option unless you think you can win the fight quickly.
At this point I despair of winning this fight at all. As long as Amazon Prime Video keeps it's ads short enough, most people aren't even going to notice the cops turning ever more into a paramilitary force. The list of rights SCOTUS has broken for the cops during my lifetime is frankly amazing. Not one right from the 1st to the 8th is enforceable in our courts. You can't even protest without getting beat by the police. That fact alone should have the entire country in the streets.
We're already hemmed in, the alarms are already going off and the collective response is to just vote for the guy who lets the fascists organize for a few more years. We're already fucked, the goose was cooked in 2020 and we couldn't see it because Obama did actually try and none of us imagined Biden would just... not.
What are you doing to deal with it?
Protest, work to get other people elected.
If you think Trump is going to save a single Palestinian, I hope you succeed in getting him elected.
We just won’t read about it any more.
then make do with what you've got
No. This isn't what we have, this is what the wealthy elite have. We're not making do, we're drowning. We've been drowning. But everyone ignored the warnings so here we are.
humans have been making do with much less than what you have for hundreds of thousands of years. making do also does not necessarily exclude political action
That's right up there with, "better clean that plate, there's starving kids in China!"
It's that very history you mention that tells me it's time to stop supporting weak Democrats. Either we get someone strong enough to pull us back from the abyss or we're already fucked. This story has played out time and again from the Roman Empire to Post Colonial Africa. The compromise guy is put in charge and the authoritarian runs him over.
... so let's just speedrun it?
years ago, i lived in a community where someone had spray-painted the dumpster. it said something like "tear it all down and start over." i endorsed that at the time.
now i am way too invested in way too many people to see it go down like that.
Let's not run it. Let's march in the streets instead.
And Trump will improve that how? We already know he’ll make everything else worse.
Oh he won't. But neither will Biden.
Right. So maybe you should look at everything else they have done as president and realize there’s a lot more at stake in this election.
I have considered it.
Hitler isn’t so bad if you overlook the Holocaust. He did build the autobahn after all.
Trump repealed 112 environmental regulations in one term, undoing over a decade’s worth of progress.
Biden just reenacted gender discrimination law that Obama created and Trump subsequently repealed.
SCOTUS repealed Affirmative Action, overturned Roe vs. Wade, and left protest law up to the states due to the heavily conservative appointments made by Trump.
Trump’s tax cuts expired for the low and middle classes in 2022, but the larger tax cuts for the wealthy and corporations continue through 2024. Biden’s tax proposal begins in 2025, with cuts for the low and middle class, and heavily increased taxes on the wealthy and corporations.
Russia will succeed in their invasion of Ukraine if the US fails to provide support, which is Trump’s position.
Trump also said the Israel’s biggest problem is recording their atrocities, and they should just finish what they started in Gaza.
I could go all day, but you get the point.
Honestly not sure the situation for immigrants is that much better under Biden. Especially with the immigration bill from earlier in the year they tried to pass and the It Could Happen Here episodes about the border conditions under Biden. At least during Trump's term there were news reports and people were more active giving aid.
Really? Deporting adults and keeping their children in ICE detention centers only to physically and sexually abuse them is better? Trump was a monster to immigrants. We had nations around the world criticizing the crisis and crimes against humanity at our border.
https://www.aclu.org/news/immigrants-rights/ice-detention-center-says-its-not-responsible
I'm glad Biden ended family separation and has increased electronic monitoring over detention. Unfortunately, tons of people are still in abusive privately run immigration prisons. Many are dying during border crossings. Plenty of kids who immigrated are laboring in meat packing plants.
Biden continues many of Trump's awful policies, but because he does it in a quieter, more respectable tone he receives less backlash. The lack of support people get from us is stark and the abolish ICE movement has withering away.
Both these situations are bad. I think my point is less about the election and more that we collectively should do something about these conditions. Mutual aid, volunteer, harass a representative, just something.
You’re forgetting about the year and a half long open border policy after Biden repealed Title 42, while pressing Congress to do their job and enact immigration reform. The only reason he restricted immigration was after receiving pressure from sanctuary cities. The president shouldn’t be enacting Executive Orders to control the border. That is a direct result of the failure of Congress.
Same thing happened to Obama. The border crisis is a manufactured thing by Republicans.
You're not wrong. I guess the question is now whether you're ok with the consequences of not kicking it?
The don't think that far ahead.
Pithy comments that undermine their own stated aims are their entire contribution to the human experience.
They’ll have plenty of opportunities for pithy comments when Trump helps eradicate Palestine and Ukraine while tailoring the US for straight, rich, white, Christian Americans.
https://lemmy.world/comment/9851217
And the people who voted for Biden in the 2020 primary will have plenty of opportunities to claim there was nothing wrong with knowingly voting for a candidate they knew would be unpopular with people they were depending on in the general election.
The DNC has been a let down since Obama. Biden was only better than Trump in 2020, as he still is. That’s the only reason he won.
"Everyone I disagree with is stupid and wrong"
I considered America a failed state 25 years ago, based on nothing but the last century of modern history, from textbooks — before 9/11, 20 years and trillions of dollars bombing the middle east to ((surrender)), the GFC, surveillance capitalism, citizens united, the rise of Trump and unadulterated fascism, etc, etc.
Guess what the last 25 years has taught me? A majority of humanity are entirely incapable of seeing beyond what's directly and immediately in front of them! But sure... The people who saw this happening in slow motion, decades ago, are the problem! Whatever helps you sleep at night is all that matters.
People acting like if Biden wins, Trump will magically disappear and another even more insane republican won't immediately take his place and threaten democracy again.
I honestly think this is the closest to perfect time for the DNC to split and make a new party. They can easily start with at least 30-40 house members and maybe a few senators. The majority of young voters would probably opt to vote for them.
Suddenly they'd be forced to do coalitions to keep doing things, and republicans would lose voter base so fast they might even split themselves.
More like Republicans will all fall in line like they always do and win against a divided left every time.
Have you seen literally any multi party democracy ever?
Yes and in many of them when one whole side of the political spectrum is united , the other side loses badly. The American right wing has abysmally low expectations from their politicians and they fall in line anyways. It'll happen again.
Here’s a take… it would be infinitely worse under the GOP. At least Biden and Blinken have attempted to cool tensions and persuade Bibi to stop. They have, at a minimum, delayed some violence.
The argument isn't "don't vote for biden" it's "stop deflecting the harm your candidate is actively doing by pointing at someone else". Why is that so hard to understand? The fact the democrats want to die on the hill of commiting genocide and squashing student protests against it is their own fault, no one elses.
This isn't an election issue, since both parties agree on support for Israel. Stop making it an election issue
This is a Congress issue, go protest at the house, or offices of your congressman.
It's an election issue if the people say it is. Otherwise we no longer live in a democracy.
Now you're catching on
Right I forgot I'm not allowed to have an opinion unless it's spoon fed to me by one of the two major political parties...
No, you're allowed an opinion, but you're starting to realize your opinion means Jack shit in your system unless you have lobbyists with deep pockets. Don't get mad at me bro, I didn't create the system
Oh but you did. I did too, we all did. And if we don't fix it you'll be right.
Enjoy president Trump. See how he handles Palestine.
So you admit that it is an election issue?
No, they’re replying to the claim that it is. If you attempt to protest the genocide at the polls, you’ll just end up with more genocide.
Right, so Bidens continued support of genocide makes it more likely that Trump will win
Therefore it is an election issue. Therefore, Biden needs to immediately change policy
That would be great. Just understand that election won’t have an effect on that at all.
Bidens actions have a direct effect on if he wins
If he wants to win then he needs to change his Israeli policy
We’re going in circles. Anyone who abstains from voting in protest of Israel support will be allowing someone to win that supports Israel more. It’s that simple.
If Biden's support of genocide makes him unacceptable, then people will not vote for him. They will not vote for trump either. Which means they will either vote 3rd party, vote uncommitted, or not vote at all.
All of which certainly increases the likelihood that Trump wins. Which is Netanyahu's goal.
Biden should change US policy on Israel to mitigate these losses. Otherwise he will lose Michigan, and likely the election.
The point is that, for many people, Never Again actually meant Never Again. Funding a genocide is a nonstarter for many who were taught that the Holocaust must never again occur
That’s only if people believe the lie that protesting at the polls will help Palestine.
No, it's because of the truth that continued support of genocide will cause Biden to lose Michigan and other states as well. Which means Trump wins.
To prevent that, Biden needs to change policy immediately
If people are mad at a government then they will not vote to re-elect that government. Which is how democracy is supposed to work. Not that it matters, because our democracy is not long for this world anyway
You're arguing with someone who doesn't want Biden to change.
Enjoy engaging people in bad faith arguments.
"bad faith argument" the new buzz phrase to beat over the head of everyone who disagrees with you in 2024
No it really is a bad faith argument to try and defend Biden by mentioning Trump. It's literally a whataboutism.
"bad faith" "whataboutism"
You're just steeped in buzzwords aren't you. No wonder wrong think is unacceptable among young liberals, you all operate on the same bullshit, and call anyone who disagrees even a little bit a right winger, even if they're so far left of you that they left you in the dust
Did I say you were a right winger? I said you were trying to deflect from defending Biden because you don't have anything to defend him with. That rather presumes you're a Democrat at least.
What makes it not an election issue?
Is it the fact that many people consider it the strongest motivation for not voting for biden?
Is it the fact that people are putting in a lot of time and effort to change the position of one of the candidates before the election?
Is it the fact that people protesting against this around election time makes you unhappy the reason you think it isn’t an election issue.
Shut the fuck up. Stop talking and stop spreading this braindead take that is begging to remain at the pro-genocide status quo. You don’t get to decide whether or not it is an election issue for everyone.
I’ve seen and been at protests against my congressmen, mayors, state houses, and governors. People have been doing these types of protests since October. Just because the current wave of protests is campus occupations.
Also, if you think this is solely a congressional issue, you fundamentally do not understand what the president can do in a situation like this.
Great post to win over hearts and minds.
A post filled with hate, by a person claiming to oppose it.
True.... but I think we would have had more representation, as democrats would try to score political points.
It would have felt like we had some representation fighting against this, rather then 2 parties agreeing on a genocide.
You’re getting all the representation you can get from Senate and House Democrats. Schumer spoke against this in January. Bernie repeated last month, and so on. Congress is now divided on this as a partisan issue, but ignorance puts it all on the president, whose office has been in support of Israel in this conflict since it began under Reagan. A Republican in office would only escalate this into a war with Iran after Palestine is eradicated.
Going around Congress to ship weapons to Israel flies in the face of the helpless president narrative you're trying to paint here.
Source on congressional evasion? The last sale of arms was completed months ago and only supplied last month. The next shipment is currently on hold.
https://www.axios.com/2024/05/05/israel-us-ammunition-shipment-hold
https://time.com/6551227/biden-administration-bypasses-congress-israel-weapons-sale/
I didn’t see that. Thank you for the link. That was in December, before Netanyahu began indiscriminately killing Palestinians in Gaza, during the early stages of defense after the Iron Dome breach in October.
I’m not painting a narrative. I’m simply aware that Republicans have historically emboldened Israel with the goal of an active war with Iran. They leverage Hamas, Hezbollah, and Houthis as justification to go hot with Iran. I’m still in stark disagreement that things would be better with Bush, or any other Republican in the presidency.
Democrats are speaking out though?
And getting called trump supporting russians when we do.
I believe they’re talking about Democrat electors, like Schumer and Bernie. No one here is against speaking out or protesting. The topic is voting. If people abstain, Trump will win. His unwavering base will make sure of that.
Also, you said you’re not a democrat. Which is it? Or do you just manipulate your stance to fit the narrative you’re selling?
Oh cool. Where did I say that?
Is it in the same chunk of your imagination where you assume I support trump because I don't love genocide like you do?
I thought you had written that you left the party years ago. My mistake. Also, accusing people of loving genocide is despicable and further discrediting to you. Of course I’m passionately against killing of any kind, especially when targeting a specific group.
I’m not defending Biden’s support of Israel. This post is about voting, and yes, I’m absolutely reluctantly voting for him to keep Trump from a second term. You are either completely ignorant to the implications of your comments or you are actively trying to get Trump into office.
You didn't care when you were accusing me of supporting trump and by extension genocide. So deal with it.
But are happy to scream false accusations at anyone who isn't willing to pretend that Biden's support for genocide is acceptable.
Really? Because you acted like I was a single issue voter for just pointing out that single issue voters exist and that Biden needs to adapt.
Of course adaptation might involve dropping support for genocide, so I can see why that would make you angry.
I very much doubt that there's any reluctance involved, unless he drops his support for genocide.
I'm trying to get Democrats to stop being the Other Genocide Party. Which bothers you.
I’m not angry. In fact, I’m quite well adjusted. You should consider paying more attention to your well being and less attention to opportunities to attack and misrepresent others online.
Yeah, they're speaking out against the protests. Biden even got in on it with his short speech recently finger wagging the student protests, in case you were wondering how much democrats care about acting against genocide.
Would you rather he ask about shooting the protestors?
Everyone knows trump is worse. The answer to hitler is not hitler-lite.
What is the answer? People are commenting like they can just abstain and everything will work out. I’m commenting as an anti-Trump voter. Provide a suggestion that isn’t whining about bad choices and I’ll listen.
The answer is for people who voted for Biden in the 2020 primaries to apologize for putting us in this position. Otherwise they're just gonna do it again in 2028.
How would an apology for voting change anything in the next election? You’ve legitimately lost me.
It would demonstrate some self awareness from the people who created this situation. If they plan on behaving differently in the next primaries then it's worth it to hold my nose and vote for Biden again in the hopes of having someone substantially better in 2028.
The fact that there is no apology means whoever is elected in the 2028 primaries won't be any better. It's probably going to be HRC.
Are you talking about the DNC providing limited options in the primary, or those who voted in the primary? You can vote in any primary just by changing your registration. I’ve done it several times. I have no party loyalty. I’m loyal to my ideals and will vote in any primary that looks to benefit my ideals best.
I'm not sure what your point is here.
My point is I don't think the 2028 primaries are going to produce a better candidate so I'm not motivated to hold my nose any longer.
The answer is to continue to pressure democrats, known as "the good party", to actually do good things they claim they want to do but refuse to actually do.
I completely agree. I’m only commenting against the inaccuracy of protesting at the polls. The topic of this thread and post is supporting Biden in the election, not in his support of Israel.
He called out elements of the student protest movement, not the movement as a whole.
Maybe if we policed the most unhelpful and destructive elements of the movement for ourselves, we wouldn't be in this situation.
He talked about these elements as if they were the entirety of the movement. It doesn't matter how much you police the movement, any jackass can make the movement look bad with the help of biden and the media pretending like they represent the movement.
The Columbia divestment spokesperson said they had no involvement with the group which took over Hamlin Hall, but stood in solidarity with them.
When the movement as a whole stands in solidarity with those who are weakening the movement, maybe Biden has a point.
Biden is arming and funding a genocide
He has no moral credibility and neither does the Democratic Party
We all know of his support. What you don’t seem to recognize is that Trump will be worse. Protest Biden’s support of Israel. Just don’t pretend that things will be get better by supporting Trump. We all know that’s a lie.
Also, the Republicans tried to pass Israel aid independent of Ukraine and Taiwan aid. Don’t pretend for a second that the Democrats in Congress are morally inferior to the Republicans.
The Democrats are arming and funding a genocide. Even George W Bush and Trump never did that.
Only one president in my lifetime ever armed and funded a genocide. That president is a Democrat and his name is Joe Biden
There were nearly one million deaths as a result of his two front war in Iraq and Afghanistan. You’re joking, right?
Trump has also made it clear that he would push Israel to finish what they started in Gaza.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/04/politics/trump-israel-comments/index.html
What are the elements of the crime of genocide, and how were they all present in Iraq?
Gaza is worse than that abomination because of Israels clear intent to exterminate a people. Which is what makes it genocide. This isn't a war with an unacceptably large amount of deaths - its a targeted extermination campaign that is also engaging in ethnic cleansing and collective punishment
Sure I get that, but I would also point out that you aren't personally getting food into Gaza. Trump is going to tear down the humanitarian aid for Palestinians that Biden and the Democrats are working through the diplomatic process.
When Trump is elected and this genocide becomes a success, make no mistake, you will have had a hand in that, and I think you would lose that ability to criticize Biden.
This is not happening. It's a fairy tale
Already is.
I think everyone who voted for Biden in 2020, which includes me, is culpable for this genocide.
Unfortunately, the United States is not a democracy. It is a dictatorship of the oligarchs. Which means there is no way to influence policy on which the oligarchs agree. This Zionist genocide is one such example. Another is single payer healthcare. And workplace democracy.
This country is a hellhole whose living conditions will continue to deteriorate for the rest of our lives, much like they have since 1968. Voting for Biden or for trump will not change that.
Moving to somewhere like Denmark is the best possible option. No American should have any hope for this country. It is naive to think that Biden and The Democrats will do anything to meaningfully improve the country or the world. They are owned by the oligarchs - they just don't actively hate guys or women.
You are privileged enough to go to Denmark, that's great.
They aren't accepting over 300 million migrants. Just because you won't be paying the repurcussions for your helping the Trump campaign doesn't make you the moral beacon you pretend to be.
No, I can't go to Denmark, actually. Everyone who can go, should go.
This country is fucked regardless of who wins. Neoliberals like the Democrats have destroyed the United States and killed the New Deal. Which is inevitably going to cause this country to elect a fascist. If not Trump in 2024, then someone else in 2028 or 2032. There is no way out of this except for socialism, or, at the least, social democracy. Which is impossible, because our oligarchs will never allow such a thing.
You and I are on the Titanic. Neither of us are getting a lifeboat. Accept that.
Actually, Democrats are funding and arming a genocide against Gazans
Find a list of people in Congress who have spoken out. What do they all have in common?
That they have not influenced policy on this issue at all and that they will be shortly electorally defeated by AIPAC endorsed candidates?
Also at a maximum.
We don’t really know how much worse this would be without US pressure
What pressure?
Wow. This comment says a lot about your media diet
or yours and like actually answer the question:
What pressure?
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-04-28-2024-78410c1eaf671008cd60dccc00b44ee4
https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/biden-netanyahu-set-to-talk-as-gaza-aid-worker-deaths-add-to-pressure-on-israel-9dee3793
Yeah, you can't answer the question.
https://www.american.edu/sis/news/20240405-biden-steps-up-pressure-on-israel.cfm
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-04-28-2024-78410c1eaf671008cd60dccc00b44ee4
Let me know if I can Google anything else for you!
This is Biden pressuring Netanyahu to stop killing American employees of a celebrity chef, after Israel had already killed all 7 of them. I'm glad Biden has a line, I guess?
This is a puff piece. There's no indication of what leverage was employed.
Like I said, let me know if I can keep googling things for you! Like Biden stopping ammo sales to Israel. Want me to link that one?
If it actually happened.
You’re hilarious. Google is too hard for you, huh?
https://www.axios.com/2024/05/05/israel-us-ammunition-shipment-hold
Now tell me why you’re denying reality again
I hadn't heard of the hold. It's good news that Biden reluctantly put a temporary pause on his arms sales to Netanyahu.
Remember when Hilary told wall Street to "cut it out"? Is that the kind of pressure you're talking about?
Exactly! Biden never did anything!
lol that happened 3 hours ago. I hadn't heard about it yet.
Good. If Biden holds it until the election I'll vote for him. I'd prefer he hold it after the election too but I suspect he'll resume immediately following the results.
EDIT: Kinda ridiculous to say "Biden never did anything" and reference an article 3 hours old. Yeah, up until 3 hours ago he hadn't done anything.
Persuade Netanyahu to stop by sending him weapons unconditionally and vetoing ceasefire at the UN?
Fantasy land.
Maga assholes are having a grand time twisting the knife in this wound trying to drive a wedge in the voting block. It's clearly working.
The people who are drawing the line at genocide in Gaza are being disingenuous at best. Foreign policy is, believe it or not, far more complicated than people make it out to seem. Making every effort to de-escalate the conflict at the negotiating table comes before burning bridges with arguably our last and only stalwart ally in the middle east.
Sending Israel weapons doesn't look like a descalation strategy.
There were agreements already in place, and not sending at least some of those weapons was not an option.
That's just pure bullshit. Under the Leahy amendment they're not even allowed to send weapons to countries credibly accused of human rights abuses, and the state department's just sitting on those reports instead of following the law.
You could literally impeach the President over this, but obviously the majority of Congress is ok with the president breaking that law.
They’re right. The weapons agreement was already in place and paid for by Israel prior to any criminal accusations by the ICC. The subsequent aid was unnecessary, but it was the only leverage to get the Republicans in Congress to pass Ukraine aid.
You're telling me that the Republicans who have been grasping at straws for four years to come up with an excuse to impeach Biden are letting this impeachable offense pass them by? Sorry, but I don't believe you.
Republicans are overwhelmingly Zionists who would never criticize a Democrat for supporting Israel. If anything, they would impeach Biden for not sending Israel enough bombs and guns to use to murder innocent Gazans
Gee, sounds like we should really do everything we can do keep these Republicans out of office then.
Sure. Which leaves us with democrats. Who are the ones currently arming and funding a genocide
So you don't want Biden, but you don't want Trump either, but you can't have it both ways. No matter if you turn out to vote or not, you are getting one of those two choices. That's a fact. We're stuck in the Prisoner's Dilemma Election, and it's time to decide if we're going to play the game to win or not.
There's far more at stake this year than just the fate of Gaza, but shortsightedness is going to kill us.
Holy shit, genocide minimizing.
Scratch a liberal...
How is this minimizing genocide? I've acknowledged that it's a serious problem.
What's your solution?
Over 30,000 is not enough for Joe “I am a Zionist” Biden?
Bush Sr and Reagan did more to hold Israel accountable for its crimes.
Not sending weapons to a genocidal regime is not complicated.
Biden is funding a genocide that’s a red line for people who oppose genocides.
Genocide doesn’t become moral because Israel is a US ally, this is a condemnation of the US too
Why do you need an ally in the Middle East? America's not in the Middle East right?
That's the "complicated foreign policy" that OP is taking about. There are a ton of reasons to have allies all over the world, which surprisingly includes the Middle East. It could be for military, economic, informational, or other reasons.
Weird. Informational?
Sharing of information. They have info we don't, and visa versa.
Information about what
Literally, anything. Information has value. Allies have information and share it with their allies.
The Empire must be everywhere
Why do we need to sally out and defeat the enemy? The enemy isn't inside the castle walls, right?
Are you really so naive that you can't see value in making alliances with countries that don't directly border your own?
Wait, who is your enemy?
Whoever Netanyahu wants dead, of course.
Does causing unnecessary conflict create pleasure for you? It’s a pretty terrible character flaw. You should take a look at that.
Unnecessary for who?
Everyone. They generate conflict with every message by name calling and misrepresenting others’ positions to create tension.
So if they just say "I'm not voting for Biden or Trump in 2024" that would be better?
That’s voting for Trump. We all know his base is delusional and unwavering. With that knowledge we are charged with the responsibility to stop him. It’s not like sitting out will result in a third option.
People can vote for whoever they want. You're just generating unnecessary conflict here.
Don't lecture your betters about character, genocide supporter.
I am a pacifist. I could not be further from your claim. Spit your venom elsewhere.
And I'm not a trump supporter. But you didn't give a shit, so why should I?
That anyone would use Trump’s non-theoretical fascism to goad a vote for Biden is offensive. These are the stakes and Biden still won’t listen. That’s on him.
No, that is one of the stakes. Single-issue voting is extremely narrow-minded, and Trump would undoubtedly make things worse in the single issue you’re emphasizing.
And yet single issue voters exist. Pretending they don't isn't going to work. Scolding them isn't going to work. The Democratic party and Biden in particular need to adapt.
So you’d rather destroy American and Ukrainian lives as well as Palestinian to prove a point?
So you'd rather support genocide and lose voters than not support genocide and gain voters?
Not a binary proposition. Support Israel and lose voters, abandon Israel and lose more and different voters. Diplomacy is hard. Politics is hard.
Part of the reason it's hard in this particular situation is bad actors pretending that geopolitics can be reduced to a soundbyte and that the problem is simple and easy.
Think you can do better? Run for president.
So just making sure I've got this right. When potential voters say, "This policy of enabling genocide is a deal-breaker for me, I won't vote for you if you don't change this stance," they're being naïve about the complexity of politics and the current situation in Palestine, if not actually just bad actors, but when other voters say "I won't vote for you if you stop enabling genocide," they're playing 5d chess that us simpletons with morals just can't keep up with, right? Because that's basically what you've just wrote.
It's always the left who are being unreasonable for refusing to compromise, but when center-right genocide sympathizers refuse to compromise on their stance, tough luck, kid, that's just politics. The enlightened centrists here are shrieking about the end of democracy if you don't fall in line with them, as all the while they happily march down the path to the end of democracy.
Exactly. And nothing illustrates this better than the fact that nobody is apologizing for electing Biden in the 2020 primaries. Their political viewpoints are sacrosanct. Ours are petty and childish.
If Biden stops supporting Netanyahu's genocide, will he lose your vote?
EDIT: disregard. You answered elsewhere before I noticed.
They sure would.
Would you prefer that Biden lose as long as he continues his support for genocide?
You sure would.
These people would prefer for Biden to lose, and I'm quite convinced that they don't really care why or how. Genocide is the buzzword of the year, but if Israel and Gaza make peace tomorrow, all of these people will all have new reasons why Democratic voters should stay home or burn their ballots.
If Biden stops supporting genocide, who do you plan to vote for?
Oh make no mistake, I'm voting for Joe no matter what. The only alternative is Donald Trump, and Donald Trump wants to destroy the Republic. Joe could send American troops into Rafah to glass it today, and I'd hold my nose and go vote for him in November. That's just facing reality.
Would I prefer things were different? Of course, but however much legitimate criticism might be laid at Biden's feet for not doing more to stop the genocide in Gaza, Trump has already wholly endorsed completely annihilating the Palestinian people, and he wants genocide in the US besides.
It's not a difficult choice.
Mask off, lmao.
Scratch a liberal...
маска снята, правда.
I doubt you'd be holding your nose in such a case.
Can't imagine why people who voted for a candidate in one election wouldn't want to vote for them in another election. Total fucking mystery.
I was describing a phenomenon, not identifying myself as an example of that phenomenon. I'm voting for Biden.
Then why are you campaigning for Trump?
I'm not.
You're campaigning for the continuation of genocide.
So the kids are left with the following options: vote for Biden and genocide is permitted or let Trump win and even more genocide is permitted.
Faced with a shit sandwich, they chose an option that no one saw on the board: demand that the genocide end. I think that's pretty rad, but maybe others don't see it the same way. I admire the protesters.
I agree with protesting, just not at the polls. You would be choosing a worse fate for Palestinians, Ukrainians, and Americans in an attempt to make a point that won’t be made.
Don't get me wrong; I'll vote for genocidal-Joe, despite my extreme dislike of his policy toward Israel. I'm not stupid and neither are the kids. But the kids are still trying to force his hand and they should. I hope they vote for him too. But to threaten not to in an attempt to save Palestinian lives is a solid move. I hope they vote against fascism when the time comes. And I hope Brandon feels the pressure and changes his policy in the meantime.
I agree. Protest everywhere but the polls. The posted article, as well as the topic, is voting. That’s the only reason there’s such a disconnect in the comments.
Then your agreement is worthless.
Explain to me how boycotting an election and allowing Trump to win will improve the situation in Gaza. You’re either ignorant to Trump’s support of Netanyahu, or putting ego in front of principle and would rather let more Palestinians die just so you can say you abstained.
I'm tired of explaining myself to people who aren't interested anyway.
So you make claims but can’t back them up? Maybe you should keep your comments to yourself if you can’t substantiate them, and take some time to learn some more about the topic.
If you're so interested in my perspective you can read my comments. You clearly aren't and you know it.
I’ve been. They’re vague and nondescript. You say a lot but make no real statements.
I understand it's a single issue but facilitating genocide seems like a big deal dontcha think?
Of course it is. It’s only going to get worse under Trump, as will everything else.
Is it so crazy to want an option that's better than "not a total distopia"?
I wouldn't say that under Biden, be are living in a "total distopia".
I would, seeing as the president full-throatedly supporting genocide is seen as perfectly fine because other guy exists.
Where has Biden verbally supported Israel or their actions? What power do you think that he has that he can just stop everything? Do you think that he can just unilaterally end years of agreement and contracts for weapons? Do you think that any other President could have actually done anything different to change what's happening? The answer is likely no. No single President can control Congress, or make laws, or directly control another country's actions. Bernie could have won, and screamed until he was blue in the face, like he is now, and all of those weapons still would have shipped out this year.
We are not living in a distopia, so we're definitely not living in a total distopia. Maybe if you live in Ukraine or Gaza you could make that argument, but if you're in the US, it sure isn't distopia yet.
https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/11/18/23966137/us-weapons-israel-biden-package-explained
https://apnews.com/article/us-israel-gaza-arms-hamas-bypass-congress-1dc77f20aac4a797df6a2338b677da4f
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/us-sends-weapons-israel-growing-calls-cease-fire-rcna145760
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/02/us/politics/biden-israel-weapons-deal.html
He's just fast-tracking weapons shipments to israel for them to carry out their campaign of genocide and pressing for even more support for israel.
Genocide, deteriorating Capitalism, a lack of Democracy, and crumbling Imperialism aren't total dystopia to you?
Must be nice to be privledged.
If that’s the only issue you’re voting on, do you want the guy that tries to stop it or the guy who says “go right ahead, do more genocide!”?
That guy's not running.
That is correct. The options at the polls for Palestinians are bad or worse. Better is just not on the table. All the more reason that protests should happen elsewhere.
Okay, then I guess those votes aren't on the table either. Democrats have a tough choice to make: do they want to support genocide and lose votes or do they want to stop supporting genocide and gain votes? Why are voters being attacked for exercising their democratic right to vote (or not vote) as they please, but politicians whose entire job is to gain votes are excused for not appealing to voters?
You’re not punishing Democrats by abstaining. You’re punishing yourself to make a point that won’t be conveyed. I’m also not attacking. I’m making sure you are fully aware of the consequences you’re accepting by making whatever choice you choose to make. You do you. Just don’t pretend you don’t know what’s going to happen if you abstain.
The point is getting conveyed a hell of a lot more than by guaranteeing votes to democrats for their "greater boogeyman" strategy. If democrats are hellbent on keeping things terrible, then voting for them isn't really a solution. My plan is to vote democrats to give them as much of a majority as possible so they can have as little excuse as possible for when they don't do what they claim they want to do, but I can understand people who don't want to vote for them.
I’m not judging people who don’t want to vote. I’m commenting to ensure they have the knowledge that abstaining will lead to another Trump presidency, and what the last one looked like under the noise shield of his antics. If he’s their second choice, then they should absolutely abstain or vote third-party.
Everyone is well aware of this, democrats make sure to tell everyone this because it's their only strategy instead of listening to voters and actually improving things.
Never Again meant Never Again
Genocide is an abomination. No human can ever support it.
If you believe in God then your soul is in incredible danger by accepting such a status of things. Which is a concern for many of us.
I agree. Protest this abomination. Just don’t dilute yourself into thinking that allowing Trump back into the White House would improve the chances of Palestinian survival.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/04/politics/trump-israel-comments/index.html
Congratulations.
For what? Honest awareness of the options of US support of Israel?
For your party keeping better off the ballot.
Again.
I’m not a Democrat. I’m ferociously anti-Trump.
I didn't say which party was yours. Though I agree that Democrats are one of the two parties that have kept better off the ballot.
Biden has made attempts to stop things, even if they are half assed. So the question remains, which do you support?
They're no-assed.
I'm voting for Biden.
Now I have a question for you. Is Netanyahu committing genocide?
Then you’re okay with the alternative? That’s fine, you are entitled to your opinion. The reality is we have a first past the post system. Wild to me that people are okay with another Trump term
I literally said in the comment you replied to that I'm voting for Biden.
I see you ignored my question as well, so I'll repeat it: Is Netanyahu committing genocide?
Man don't bother. These people aren't against genocide. They all have no problem with Ukrainian genocide or any genocide the Chinese want to carry out.
Ukraine isn't committing genocide, and the US isn't selling weapons to China for their genocide.
Netanyahu is committing genocide, and he's doing it with weapons we sold him.
Good Lord buddy, learn to read. Nobody said Ukraine was committing a genocide. Ukrainian genocide clearly means of the Ukrainian people. Or you under the impression that The Armenian Genocide was a genocide carried out by the Armenians?
Oh. Ok. Is the US supporting Russia in their genocide of Ukraine? Are we supporting China's genocide?
Because we're supporting Netanyahu's genocide. You love it and want it to continue, and that's the only reason you decided to ignore the rest of my comment.
Biden, his administration, and the bulk of the Democratic Party deserve every bit of blowback that they are going to get from their racist, bloodthirsty, gaslighting-filled stance on Gaza. The immorality of it all is bad enough, but it’s also just politically stupid given how so much of the electorate feels. I am painfully aware of the existential threat to democracy that this election poses. For Democrats to gamble US democracy itself on their desire to fuel a genocide is unforgivable. If this godforsaken country actually elects trump, it will be entirely the result of Joe Biden and the sclerotic Democratic Party leadership. We deserve much better.
You do understand that if Biden came down hard that that would result in him losing votes from independents and that he's doing what he can with an unwinnable situation...?
Why is all the pressure to compromise or accept bad candidates focused on the left? Why aren't you encouraging the main stream Democrats and "independents" to agree to stop aiding Israel's genocide to prevent Trump's winning? Why is it only progressive or the left that are required to vote against their conscience to save democracy when the center could just as easily compromise to prevent fascism?
Cuz that's how it's always worked. The center's never saved anyone in their lives from anything. That's why they're in the center. They don't take a stand. They don't fight for justice or equality or plurality. They're in the center. They're complacent. They're easily steered. You can't lead by never taking a stance in the first place. You can't want to be led by somebody who's never first.
The center is taking a stand right now. In favor of genocide. I didn't know they could, either. Guess they were just looking for a cause that they firmly believe in that excites them.
No they're not. They're not taking a stand at all. They're just standing back and watching impassively like they always do.
Circumventing congress to sell Netanyahu weapons is not standing back and watching impassively.
Running interference for Netanyahu at the UN isn't standing back and watching impassively.
Voting overwhelmingly to not condition aid is not standing back and watching impassively.
Voting overwhelmingly to fund Israel while they are committing genocide is not standing back and watching impassively.
Claiming that those who oppose Netanyahu's genocide have ties to Russia isn't standing back and watching impassively.
Centrists have finally found an issue that they won't immediately abandon at the very first sign of opposition.
That whistling sound you are hearing is the sound of the point you miss completely.
Sorry, I'm not going to pretend that centrist Democrats are benignly bungling into this. They're enthusiastically supporting genocide because it's all they've ever wanted.
Yeah of course it's not fair, but refusing to vote for the least bad available option is insanity when the stakes are this high. These people are beyond children and will lead our entire species to its end.
That is literally the only way to get politicians to support the policies and issues that you want them to. The only thing you have that they want is your vote, they only way you will move them on an issue is if you convince them they won't get it otherwise.
If you think the pro-genocide orange man is going to care more about your desires than Biden, I have bad news for you...
Nobody thinks that, but he is not going to make it worse. Israel is running their pogrom at the exact speed they want, Biden, and therefore the US, are not doing anything to slow them down. He gives some minor admonishment and his staff leaks to the press the he is "frustrated with Netenyahu" as if that matters. They say they will sanction some of the illegal colonizers in the West Bank, but then a couple weeks later decide not to. We continue to give Israel bombs and missiles and any other help they need in their mass murder. We are building a pier in Gaza so we can get aid past the Israeli blockade but then Biden says it will be under the control of Israel, so it will not be any more effective than any other crossing. Netenyahu wants the war to continue as it is preventing his corruption charges and the longer he can continue the better chance he has of getting his judicial and government reform in place to further consolidate his power and eventually quash any chance he will be held to account. Forcing the Democrats to actually make policy and take action to resolve the apartheid in Palestine is the only potential path in our broken political system. If you are so concerned this is going to hand Trump victory then start pressuring the centrist Dems to enforce a ceasefire now. Gain the youth vote, gain the anti genocide vote.
Independents are not automatically centrists. They are simply people who don't identify with either party. Chasing the mythological centrist voter is how we got here.
Edited because Auto Correct really doesn't like independents?
It's funny that his solution to this "unwinnable situation" is to support genocide. Just a woopsie by the old man I guess.
You've got the genocide excuser and the genocide enthusiast running... who do you choose for the least bad outcome?
This is our reality. None of us like it, but you're being idiotic.
If you can excuse genocide, then go for it. But for many people it's too much.
They didn't say they are excusing the genocide. They said that the Democrats and their candidate are excusing the genocide, while the GOP and their candidate, are actively frothing at the mouth to speed it up.
If he stops supporting genocide, who will you vote for?
If Biden stopped supporting genocide I would vote for Biden again.
Maybe you need a better answer than that?
The emissions that would continue or escalate with Trump in office? He’s worse for everyone except rich white industrialists.
Trump repealed 112 environmental regulations in one term, undoing over a decade’s worth of progress.
Biden just reenacted gender discrimination law that Obama created and Trump subsequently repealed.
SCOTUS repealed Affirmative Action, overturned Roe vs. Wade, and left protest law up to the states due to the heavily conservative appointments made by Trump.
Trump’s tax cuts expired for the low and middle classes in 2022, but the larger tax cuts for the wealthy and corporations continue through 2024. Biden’s tax proposal begins in 2025, with cuts for the low and middle class, and heavily increased taxes on the wealthy and corporations.
Russia will succeed in their invasion of Ukraine if the US fails to provide support, which is Trump’s position.
Trump also said the Israel’s biggest problem is recording their atrocities, and they should just finish what they started in Gaza.
I could go all day, but you get the point. Abstain or vote third-party if you’re looking to invite this back into the White House.
Agreed, any of those are better answers than, "Welp, ya got me there."
Just trying to help out anyone else who can’t speak to the difference in the candidates.
Well that's the most frustrating part of the campaign. Biden is making all of the same mistakes Hillary did when it comes to motivating the base and young people. It's like watching your grandma try to check her email. What should be a simple thing turns into an exercise in patience, but if you try to help, she gets belligerent and acts like you can't possibly know anything she doesn't.
Biden is bad at articulating his message. That trickles down to his volunteers. There's never been a more important election in our lifetimes, and Biden is making unforced errors.
Look at a few of his actions compared to Trump’s, then tell me you still believe that.
Are you sure you've read and understood what I wrote? Because yes, I still believe it, because none of that refutes my point.
He would rather lecture than listen.
It's such a dumb simplification and false question, what's he supposed to do? Pull out charts demonstrating that unchecked hamas bombimg canmpaigns against Isreal would be less carbon friendly?
What the person is saying is I don't care about the environment or any other issue so I'm going to disrupt you talking about anything else
I'd love to see them locked in a room with the just stop oil protestors that pour oil on the road trying to cause accidents - battle of the delusional egomaniac single issue voters.
How about "We're not going to agree on every issue, or support everything that Biden does, because this isn't a cult. Biden is imperfect, and we need to speak loud so that he hears our concerns. But it won't matter at all if Biden loses the election. He won't be able to do anything about anything if Trump wins, and you can be damn sure that everything you care about will be worse if that happens.
So yes, we are all of us concerned about what Israel is doing in Gaza. And we are concerned about climate change. And we are concerned about equal rights, the rule of law, foreign interference, immigration, the economy, water, food, energy, and housing, and a vote for anyone but Biden is a vote for catastrophe."
How do you sell a genocide supporter to people who want to stop the genocide? Why not give them an option to not support the genocide?
Some people seem way too okay with there being two bad choices for president.
Others seem way too resistent to any attempt to make one of those choices not bad.
There's a difference between being okay with something and begrudgingly working with circumstances while simultaneously criticizing people who give up because things aren't perfect.
I'm not okay with Biden being the best candidate, but that doesn't make abstention a viable voting strategy.
Begrudgingly working with circumstances and giving up because things aren't perfect can easily be the same thing. That criticism has got to come with some cognitive dissonance.
What the fuck are you talking about?
"giving up" takes many forms.
Well yeah, but that's a pretty broad spectrum. Giving up by not participating at all is a higher degree of apathy than "giving up" by realistically evaluating your situation and recognizing that participating in a deeply flawed system will still have a chance of moving the needle in the direction you want it to go, or at least stopping it from moving the other direction.
Right, so I wouldn't equivocate students protesting staunch support for a genocide as 'giving up'. These are specifically people trying to move the needle of a deeply flawed system.
To quote old song, they're 'young people speaking their minds getting so much resistance from behind.'
Your only acceptable measure of that is if I vote for Biden which makes me unable to realistically evaluate my situation by definition. There's no point in making this argument. We aren't going to see things the same way. One of us has to compromise. If you can't see it's moderates and liberals turn to make some serious and material compromises leftwards then you never will.
No, that's not what I'm saying at all. The situation is that you will realistically have two choices for president. Voting for anything other than one of those two choices is effectively pointless as it will have no impact on the outcome except to withhold a vote from one of the two candidates that are going to win.
Anything else that you choose is symbolic at best but effectively meaningless.
If there's a plan for a better outcome I can white knuckle my way through a lot of situations in life. Sure, shit happens and sometimes we just gotta deal with it but if I feel like this isn't something we're going to be able to avoid in the future I want to opt out entirely. Think of a camping trip where the tent is leaking. If we're not planning on replacing the tent I don't want to go camping again.
So with Biden sure I can white knuckle through it if I think 2028 primaries are going to produce someone better but they won't. You can blame "young voters" if you want. Personally I point to the fact that nobody is apologizing for voting for Biden in the 2020 primaries. If they're not apologizing that means they don't see how their decisions negatively impacted me or don't see a problem with negatively impacting me so they're going to repeat the behavior.
I'm not interested in white knuckling through that. People are free to keep camping with a leaky tent I won't stop them but I won't be participating any more than I can control.
Please don't respond with some kind of counter comparative example or taking my made up comparison to some kind of scientific degree. It's just a conceptual tool for the purposes of the conversation. Telling me it doesn't apply isn't going to change the way I view the situation or my decisions.
If I get the sense that 2028 would somehow be better I'd reconsider.
Even though you preemptively asked people not to provide a counterpoint, I feel the need to highlight a problem with your analogy that you seen to already be aware of.
Your position of "I don't want to go camping anymore" is a fantasy. The only way to achieve that is to emigrate to another country. The real situation is: you're going to sleep outside. Do you want a leaky tent or a ragged old tarp? Those are your only two choices. If you do not make a choice, then you are leaving the choice up to everyone else.
If you're okay with that, then sobeit. It is your right to opt out of participating in the political process, but that doesn't change which tent you're going to end up sleeping in. If you're an American, you're along for the ride whether you like it or not. Your choice to opt out does not change the outcome, it merely cedes control to everyone else.
I tend to agree with your main point though. I'm pretty exhausted with everyone around me selecting the same deteriorated tents that we've been using for the last 50 years because "that's the only way enough people will select it over the moldy tarp" instead of considering a new one that actually works, or at least has fewer leaks.
That's fine. Enjoy our camping trip.
The phrase "there are 3 bad choices for president" is true, but is so hilariously reductionist. I'm not saying you, in particular, are evaluating it through this lense, just that there is a difference between the "bad" here, and it's really, really obvious.
It is a reference to the two party system that constrains the election to what is often considered the picking the lesser of two evils.
Jesus fuck I thought I was cynical but this take by CNN is like, weaponized cynicism.
Perhaps instead of trying to mobilize students to support an active genocider, they can go fuck themselves instead?
I guess the people pushing this don't understand elections because Russia hasn't had real ones in so long? Or is it just the new wave of idealistic anti intellectualism? 'I have a moral cause so I don't need to meaningfully interact with reality!'
Ooooo, "idealistic anti intellectualism" huh? Well check out the big brain on Brett, you're a smart motherfucker!
Basically you're talking to a wall with these people
It's ok, Trump is on deck to take over as soon as you let him. That's what you want, right?
'What do you mean by "Why do you keep beating that straw man to death?"'
Oh I didn't realize you were a lemmy.ml account. I should have just blocked you to begin with.
You won't be missed
If the students vote for Trump over Biden because of how he is handling Isreal they are severely misinformed.
Predictable as always.
I’d like us to just remember the Iran hostage crisis and the Carter/Reagan Election. Carter negotiated in good faith to try to get the US hostages released. It didn’t work because Reagan had paid the Iranians some $40 million through Earl Brian to keep the hostages until after the election. Just an hour or so after Reagan was sworn into office, the hostages were released. This tipped the scales of the election.
Why do I bring this up now? Because the situation with Israel and Gaza is bad for Biden. He knows it and seems to be trying to do something to stop it. However, it is really in Trump’s interest, and even seems to be Israel’s plan anyway, to keep the war going as long as possible. For all we know, Trump is paying off Israel to not agree to a ceasefire.
So, just keep in mind who is being hurt by the situation and who has more to gain from the war going on indefinitely.
Netanyahu wants Trump to win and is acting accordingly
Israel's actions make much more sense when viewed through this lens
What evidence exists of this?
I wonder how many of them vote anyway
Clearly enough vote that Biden's chances in 2024 are looking less likely by the day.
I mean that'd be true even with a single voter who decided not to vote. I was just wondering how many would've voted to begin with. It's not usually that many
Youth voting is at an all time high so...
That's not saying much
lol well I don't blame them the way Boomers have fucked everyone over for decades so here we are.
Eh kids learn to vote over time. Older people weren't huge voters as kids either. It just means nobody really listen to kids' voices because they don't matter but it is what it is
Yep. Boomers voted to mortgage everybody's futures and continue to do so. Nothing we can do about that but hope they don't burn down the planet on their way out.
Well there is voting ofc but kids don't really go for that. Every generation seems to figure it out only later
Well Boomers do vote and they vote and they reliably vote to mortgage everybody's futures because they're a selfish trash generation.
Just goes to show that voting does work
Yep and that Boomers are trash.