The report cites inexperienced workforce, exacerbated by the limited pool to hire from in New Orleans and the non-competitive wages Boeing offers compared to other aerospace companies. Mobile and Huntsville are right there. Lol, pony up, Boeing.
And the report mentions operators are given work instructions that lack detail and require the operator to go diving through multiple levels of specifications and historical records to understand what to do. This speaks to inadequate manufacturing engineers and processes, who are putting out the inadequate work instructions. So I'm assuming the non-competitive pay and retention problems apply to their engineers too, not just the hourly operators and mechanics.
Work for Boeing for bad pay and to see this shit in the news? Or hop over to Mobile, AL to work for Airbus at a better wage on a popular commercial plane with good reliability and a good reputation. Decisions, decisions.
the report mentions operators are given work instructions that lack detail and require the operator to go diving through multiple levels of specifications and historical records to understand what to do
Damn, That's a red flag for anything that flies. I imagine their compliance checklists during assembly are a mess.
I work in automotive as an engineer and that would be a red flag in our industry too. Our safety standards are only a fraction as strict as aerospace for obvious reasons (we’re not shooting cars through the atmosphere at the speed of sound!), but we’d never get away with this with the amount of audits and accountability that we’re held to. This whole saga is absolutely insane.
And then there Tesla with masking tape, dish soap, and 2x4s lmao.
Ah, but Tesla is really an AI company that happens to sell cars.
🪄Musk as he waves away the auditors
Hmm, space is a little different because so many products are one-offs. It’s hard to design checklists and detailed procedures when you’re making what are essentially prototypes each time. So you make more general processes and then your engineers apply them as needed to each unique build. It can end up looking like a bit of a mess. Space builds rely a lot on expert techs, good modular documentation, and multiple layers of engineering oversight because things change along the way and you can’t always plan for it.
I’m a process engineer at a different aerospace company. I standardize as much as I can and work hard to make instructions clear but man it’s a struggle. Boeing’s space group needs to pay people enough to retain good talent, because they’re all making decisions all day long.
Bold assumption that someone has written good, comprehensive checklists. Sounds possible if not likely that they're underpaid and under supported too.
non-competitive pay and retention problems apply to their engineers too
Bruhh this is how it is pretty much everywhere... The thing is even if the employee is competent there are but so many times being told your labour ain't shit, you don't deserve money for it ... How many times of no raise will a good worker take before either changing jobs or just doing work that the wages covers.
About time these" leadership" got exposed for their looting
This is the utopia of capitalism.
Oh, agreed. And partially why I mentioned Boeing getting smeared in the news in my statement too. Pay means a lot but it's not everything. Good managers and work a person can be proud of goes a long way.
Space industry attracts a ton of passionate people who would stick around to do cool things for mediocre pay. But not if the pay gets too low and/or when the work is not something to be proud of.
E g., I've already got a mediocre paycheck, why accept a mediocre paycheck and the grief of a worsening reputation. Someone currently at Boeing for mediocre pay can find another mediocre job elsewhere but it will still be better because the new company isn't getting dragged in front of Congress for killing people to save money.
It seems like it is time to nationalize Boeing.
...imagine fuxking NASA pulling this off. After so many fuckups in USA that didn't end with nationalising, a goddamn NASA going "welp, that's it" and managing to push for nationalising Boeing...
NASA’s biggest issue over the last 35 years is that it became a political target. It is really hard to do long term design when your mission changes every 4 years along with a different budget. NASA should have a budget that is only reapproved every 30 years and should not have to worry about outside influence from a president dictating its mission.
Them and the military. There's only one other major airplane military contractor, Lockheed, and then a couple of smaller companies.
The 6th gen fighter program, Next Generation Air Dominance, is supposed to be a family of planes where one human plane controls a small squadron of drones of various models. The Air Force gave contracts for two of those drones to some of the smaller companies beside Boeing and Lockheed. They tend not to come right out and say these things, but a good guess as to why is that they don't want to have those two be the only options.
Oh god, they certainly don't deserve that. When a company screws up this bad you don't buy them... Fuck...
You just stop giving them contracts and watch them go belly up. Problem solved. We have plenty of other aerospace companies to fill the void and plenty of new startups who would love the chance to prove themselves.
When a company is collapsing in on itself, why would you want to pay a bunch of executives for privilege of inheriting their mess? Wait... are you the CEO of Boeing?
Gotta pad those CEO bonuses somehow!
C'mon man, you know that 40 million dollar sign in bonus is absolutely necessary to get at least your garage and kitchen in order when you move.
Honestly most of that gets eaten up just airlifting my mansion. I'm sick of doing it, but I'm glad I invested early in the airliftable frame kit when I had the place built. The foundations wouldn't have held up more than one or two moves otherwise, and there's no way I'm commuting more than 15 mins.
Maybe 🤔 with the right airship we could just work a few lifetimes to move Seattle closer to the East Coast? Maybe as far as Chicago? Sure many will die and loose their homes and way of living?
Just like their planes. Al Jazeera made a really awesome documentary about Boeing and their terrible quality control. They gave some workers at one of the major Boeing assembly facilities hidden cameras and microphones, and let them interview their colleagues. The factory is full of crackheads, and most of Boeing's own employees who literally put the fucking planes together said that they wouldn't fly on these planes themselves.
most of Boeing's own employees who literally put the fucking planes together said that they wouldn't fly on these planes themselves
Jesus Christ.
Rejects from the plane assembly line. Now that's scary!
At this point the government just needs to sue Boeing into bankruptcy. They cannot be allowed to continue to gamble with others’ lives while taking taxpayer money
The need to seize the company. Boeing holds too many military contracts to be allowed to die. They build planes for the military, so they’ll get an inevitable bailout.
Instead, the government should start seizing parts of the company as part of the bailout. “Oh hey, we paid you all this money, so we own these parts of the company now. Shareholders have been fairly compensated for it by the bailout money, so you can’t say it’s unfair. You have proven that your leadership is lacking and you can’t be allowed to operate without oversight. So now that we own large swaths of the company, we’ll be making lots of the big decisions.”
Nationalize Boeing now
lol boeing gets like half of their money from the government, I don't see the government suing them anytime soon
The US is just collapsing everywhere. What a time to be alive.
I don’t think that’s a fair assessment, everything people have built up to now relies on a significantly greater amount of complexity. There is a lot which works well and is held together by hardworking, unsung normal everyday folks, but you don’t make the national news for getting shit done or keeping stuff functional.
That said, yeah the bean counters have fucking ruined engineering firms, and it’s a story which repeats itself over and over. There’s also the issue of nepo babies or “I know this person” incest in a lot of places where qualified people are passed over for someone “you know”. The nepotism and cronyism phenomenon is a huge problem for many institutions, not just engineering firms. Nepotism and cronyism is not just an American issue, it’s something you see everywhere.
Regarding unqualified people, I do think maybe standards should be raised for entry into some college programs. But the only way raising standards would make sense if we significantly invest in public education. In short, a lot of “breaking” of America is the direct result of short sighted Republican policies.
Boeing shifted production to break the Seattle unions. That's been a sound financial decision so far...except for all of the failures and dead people.
Well Boeing is just overall imploding...
Boeing is just a symptom of the rampant corporate greed and irresponsibility that modern MBAs teach as part of normal daily operations.
It affects everyone, makes everyone less safe and less secure. Enshittification on a world scale brought to you by Next Quarter Only bottom line capitalism.
But the powers that be are fine with it for now, mainly because of class war.
I taught business ethnics for MBAs when i was in graduate school.
The only 'ethics' they learned was 'maximize shareholder value at any price'. They spent an entire semester learning to to argue why murdering people and abusing people was morally justified as long as the share price goes up. That was the curriculum. Nothing else mattered.
If humanity survives this with our records intact, future historians will put a huge chunk of the blame on that mentality.
It really started with Dodge vs Ford, that codified the mentality as mainstream and we have paid the price for it every year since.
Didn't two Chinese rockets just blow up a couple months ago? I don't think a couple specific aerospace examples on the cutting edge are indicative of broader issues lol
Is this “whataboutism”?
Boeing has a track record of shoddy work. As the crown jewel of US manufacturing and the largest exporter, the cumulative failures over the past years are indicative of systemic failures in the US system.
Perhaps there would be less pushback if you heard it from an American?
literally every post I see from lemm.ee users is hot trash. Can we please defederate them?
Holy shit. At this moment it really feels like Boarding just need to start at the top and fucking fire everyone involved with safety standards and manufacturing.
Hell no. FAA needs to realize what a disaster they've created by allowing self regulation of this industry and Crack down to a level that essentially strangulates a company like Boeing. Let them die and allow space for something newer with a quality and safety focus to grow.
Saying they've fired people and put new people in won't change anything. They'll still slack on safety for profits.
The sad part is that will never happen in a timely manner as things stand currently, thanks to SCOTUS weakening the powers of federal agencies. The FAA should put their foot down, but it will likely get dragged out in legal battles over "the meaning of words like 'safety.'"
Thomas Jefferson never added airplane safety regulations to the Constitution ergo, it's completely unregulated. Also, Justice Alito would like to cite a man with tapestries tied to his arms as he jumped off a cliff in the 9th century saying of course it's safe.
I've wondered about this, killing the "company" never really seemed like that big of a deal, as the structure (both physical building/tool/systems and operationally) don't simply vanish. You still have the knowledge and skillsets in the population, and the supply chains still exist.
The real problem with these "too big to fail" entities is that the people pulling the levers that cause failures never have any consequences whatsoever.
Yeah, you'll always need banks, energy, transportation, defence etc - operational mechanisms for exchanging goods, building, buying etc will never go away or 'fail' - but their operational practices absolutely could and should change
I'm so sick of the wealth class abusing absolutely everything to guarantee themselves more money than they could ever spend.
Sure the FAA needs to do this. We also need to fund the FAA and other regulatory agencies at the level they could. Whole towns in Texas have had large portions of them vaporized. Due to no proper OSHA and hazardous chemical safety handling inspection and accountability. And yes you read that right. Plural, it's happened multiple times.
Often tens to hundreds of inspectors at most. Employed by these agencies are responsible for inspecting tens of thousands of sites each across several States because they are so under staffed and funded. And you want to guess who's responsible?
Sadly getting something new and better will take decades and Airbus cannot handle the (airline) market alone. They also need to have a concurrent cause having an Airbus monopoly could make them sloppy on the long run. The C suite at Airbus are probably the first ones to want Boeing to survive as they know the trouble they’ll be in if they are alone.
Nah. The C suite would love it if they were the only game in town.
Shareholder profits and stock goes through the roof. They don't have competition so they don't have to innovate or improve anything but profits. They get a HUGE bump in net worth and "retire" while still collecting their board approved stock options.
Yes the company would eventually kill a ton of people and might be shut down like Boeing, but "I got mine, fuck you".
Yeah I’m not sure about that. Work culture, and even C suite culture, is very different in Europe.
Airbus publicly said they want Boeing to continue being a good opponent. The comments on this video talks a lot about working for one or the other manufacturer and the differences in the way people are treated.
Airbus is still lead by an engineer and not an accountant. That could change for sure but EU country won’t let it slip to a shit company as easy as it happened in the US, just because of our culture.
Worst case scenario, French, German, Spanish and other Airbus locations will go on strikes and riots if conditions are getting worse.
Of course a company would say that they don't want a monopoly publicly. If it's known they are, or want a monopoly, then they are more likely to fall in public favor and get hit with fines and legal action, hurting shareholder profits.
You have a lot of faith that capitalism won't do a capitalism when the opportunity presents itself.
Yes Europe has a lot better hold against the evils of capitalism, but it's still capitalistic.
Ah ah yes thanks I try to dream and be positive even if it’s sometimes dumb 😁
Another thing I forgot is that Airbus (and all EU aviation) are applying the HRO (high reliability organization) and just culture for a long time now.
I have read somewhere that Boeing started implementing just culture after the Max crashes, so very late. And apparently wrongly as some employees still fear repercussions if they make safety reports (and according to latest NTSB report 2 employees had been punish lately for that reason).
If true that is totally unbelievable.
Who cares what Boeing does, the solution is simply to stop giving them contracts. Let them work out how to reimagine their company, just not on our dollar.
That's most industries. Society is falling apart lol. Look how the secret service responded to an assassination attempt on trump. It was absolutely pathetic. These people are supposed to be the best of the best of the best. It doesn't surprise me that other industries are also experiencing this.
There's no point for democracy when ignorance is celebrated
NOFX wrote about the rise of ignorance in America and the song "The Idiots Are Taking Over" is more appropriate now than ever before.
It's not the right time to be sober
Now the idiots have taken over
Spreading like a social cancer, is there an answer?
Mensa membership conceding
Tell me why and how are all the stupid people breeding
Watson, it's really elementary
The industrial revolution
Has flipped the *removed* on evolution
The benevolent and wise are being thwarted, ostracized, what a bummer
The world keeps getting dumber
Insensitivity is standard and faith is being fancied over reason
Darwin's rolling over in his coffin
The fittest are surviving much less often
Now everything seems to be reversing, and it's worsening
Someone flopped a steamer in the gene pool
Now angry mob mentality's no longer the exception, it's the rule
And I'm starting to feel a lot like Charlton Heston
Stranded on a primate planet
Apes and orangutans that ran it to the ground
With generals and the armies that obeyed them
Followers following fables
Philosophies that enable them to rule without regard
There's no point for democracy when ignorance is celebrated
Political scientists get the same one vote as some Arkansas inbred
Majority rule, don't work in mental institutions
Sometimes the smallest softest voice carries the grand biggest solutions
What are we left with?
A nation of god-fearing pregnant nationalists
Who feel it's their duty to populate the homeland
Pass on traditions
How to get ahead religions
And prosperity via simpleton culture
The idiots are taking over
I'm still thinking they send the "barely qualified" secret servicemen to protect Trump
Lmaooo
Look how the secret service responded to an assassination attempt on trump. It was absolutely pathetic
it was perfectly fine??? They shot and killed the guy within like 3 seconds of the event happening???
Sure it's weird that he was up there, but i'm not sure that's a failing of SS specifically, but they certainly did their job in regards to neutralizing the threat.
Also trump isn't even the current president, so it's not like he's going to get all the coverage in the world.
The fact he even got shots off while laying on literally one of the only spots a sniper could get a shot off is absolutely bad enough. They should have had minimum one sniper looking at that roof constantly. That's like step one.
i believe they did, though it's worth noting, you're constantly scanning rooftops as a sniper, so there's always going to be a small amount of time before targeting and shooting.
I've heard, havent verified but apparently local police were working the grounds and apparently maybe that roof? So it might have been their responsibility entirely. I'm guessing the kid only peaked the roof shortly before shooting though, that's the only way he would've gotten a shot off.
I don't see how the secret service is relevant to this in literally any way.
Read the comment again lol
Apon rereading, your comment isn't any more coherent. It's like a vague "what is this world coming to?!", drawing disparate concepts together as if they form some grand pattern, but there's nothing there.
Sorry you're dumb then.
The whole word, "No NASA, don't send astronauts on Boeing equipment!"
NASA, ¯_(ツ)_/¯
You lost an l and an upper arm there
That’s Boeing quality for you.
Ship it!
Wrong vehicle.
Rock it!
¯\(ツ)/¯
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
You need 3 slashes for the right arm.
Ouch!
me when I don't have proper fallback fonts installed:
Define "unqualified."
Like, unqualified to even build a see-saw for a public playground? Agreed
Unqualified to work for Boeing? Highly debatable at this point
Can we please instate a corporate death penalty? And some sort of persona non grata for executives who contributed to the condemnable behavior?
Also, new rule: if the sum of pay and benefits for a company's C-suite and stock buybacks is greater than the sum of the pay for your non-contractor employees then all the stocks bought back must be transferred to your employees and contractors.
Can we please instate a corporate death penalty?
That shit doesn't even work for petty crimes, why do you think it would work for people who can buy their way out of it?
Don't say "no" just because it hasn't worked yet!
Be bold! Be daring!
Stomp on a CEO's crotch!
Nah, I don't want to be choked out by their private militia.
But hey, if that's something you're up for dying pointlessly for, be my guest!
Stomping on their crotch will hurt them less than taking their money.
Fine the CEO’s personally at 90% yearly salary for fuckups like this and shit will change real fast.
this will keep happening if you don't put people in prison for it.
Silly billy, rich people don't go to prison anymore, that's for the poors.
of course. the prison is for people who steal hundreds, not millions.
That’s how you squeeze profits from a good company and turn it to shit. That’s the capitalist nazi way!
Thank you Cory Doctorow for coining that term. As the world gets ever shittier, at least we have a way to describe it.
Every company is trying for the most unqualified workforce these days… but at least most of them don’t involve flight.
Well that’s nothing new - I worked for them “briefly” (as in weeks - ended up with a better job offer!!) and as an actual aircraft mechanic I was disgusted by what I saw - they had supervising roles filled with non-aircraft trades people, training was done by a former boat mechanic, there were butchers and carpenters - who, if you asked them thought they were far more capable than an aircraft mechanic as, actual aircraft trades are considered “problematic” by Boeing management (who are all ex Toyota staff for the most part…) because - aircraft mechanics are too slow for a production line environment as we tend to take our time too much for their liking (oh because we want to get it right first time?!) 🤦🏼♀️
I left and a week later the Max was grounded - the garbage that was spewing from senior management right before the grounding was eye roll inducing - about how they stand by the product bla bla bla and have no idea how shiny new aircraft could just fall out the sky…..of course we know how that turned out for them….
But yeah, Boeing, like Rolls Royce are not the brand a lot of people should think of as “high quality” until they sort their QA shit out and start employing actual aircraft tradespeople and engineeers who know what they are doing 🤷🏼♀️
Boeing was one of my accounts back before the pandemic. I had to respond to RFPs where my employer sold services to Boeing. They sucked to work with and just didn't understand really basic things about the services they were requesting in their own RFPs.
Disney and Walmart on the other hand were great. They were not pushovers, but they were consistently friendly, and they always knew their shit.
In a not so shocking comment, Boeing is run by an unqualified management.
imagine we find out Boeing really did build that submersible
I still hate that NAA ended up in Boeing's hands after only two buyouts.
Totally nothing wrong with an aerospace company buying out its competitors and then promptly liquidating its assets.
Google does it all the time!
Sounds like Boeing is being run by an unqualified work force
This wouldn't be a problem if we still had NASA doing the shuttle program, or some continuation of it, rather than outsourcing our spacecraft to the cutthroat lowest-bidder private sector. Is it really any surprise that SpaceX and Boeing are blowing up on the launchpads and having quality control issues when their sole objective is to make money? If we nationalized these initiatives again and cancelled the private contracts with these crooks, there would be no incentive for profiteering and corners would not get cut as often as they do now.
Sure, it would be a big cost to the taxpayer once again, but I think I'd rather have a reliable space program and like 2% less military budget to fund it, I think we'll manage somehow without producing more tanks and planes that nobody is asking for.
NASA blew up a fair few rockets, and lost two shuttles, so that's not necessarily the better option.
Fair point, I don't want to fixate on that one aspect of the colossal technical challenge that is getting spacecraft into orbit, but I'm still of the opinion that a nationalized and fully government-funded space program will always yield better results than a privatized one because there is no profit-taking incentive.
This wouldn't be a problem if we still had NASA doing the shuttle program, or some continuation of it, rather than outsourcing our spacecraft to the cutthroat lowest-bidder private sector.
While I like the sentiment, you should know that you are absolutely, completely, 100% wrong.
The space shuttle was the deadliest spacecraft in human history, not just in the US, but in the entire world. And mind you, NASA spacecrafts are all also quite literally built from parts delivered by the lowest bidder.
For the record Boeing sucks and is doing a pretty crappy job right now, but regardless, it would be safer to launch on the Starliner 20 times in a row than to ride in the space shuttle once. At least the Starliner has a launch escape system.
To be fair to the shuttle though, it is objectively cool. While not a good way to get to space, that thing was awesome in every sense! I truly wish I had gotten to see it launch in person. Also the RS-25, the main engine, is a pretty badass rocket engine, there was so much about that vehicle that was great, it's a shame that it never quite fulfilled its promise.
I followed the Space Shuttle program pretty heavily as a kid and got to see a few launches from the Cape.
Truly loved the innovative look and the futuristic (lol, at the time) feel.
In retrospect, it was a good try with bad funding, and an exceptionally expensive satellite positioner that never lived up to its promised turn around time.
I loved it, but it kind of was an objective flop.
spacex was intended to blow up on launch pads
boeing was not intended to drop doors off of planes, ever.
There is a slight difference here.
Is it really any surprise that SpaceX and Boeing are blowing up on the launchpads and having quality control issues when their sole objective is to make money?
I mean, spaceX has a fantastic track record. In their entire history, they only once failed to deliver a payload to orbit, and that was like just a month ago that they had their first failure after well over 300 successful launches. That's record setting reliability in orbital rockets.
They blow up a lot of rockets in testing and development, but that's kind of just how rocket development goes. It's the same for NASA, Russia, and everyone else who designs rockets. You blow some up during development.
I'm just saying, I'm not sure you can lump SpaceX and Boeing together, they're very different companies with very different track records.
Who do you think built the shuttle...?
Also, not defending the Musk shitstain, but focusing on "blowing up launch pads" tells me you probably know very little about the Space industry or development.
Not Boeing. Rockwell design and built the orbiter. Boeing later bought Rockwell im the mid 90's.
I probably should have been more specific, though you're right.
They seem to think though that NASA themselves did most of the design and manufacturing or something, instead of farming a ton of it out to various contractors (Thiokol, etc). That absolutely happened with STS.
In fact, the Space Shuttle is where costs and time frames and project management and etc started to go off the rails - and led to where we are with Boeing and others today. It's a bad one to choose to make his point - even if we were actually still getting SOME shit done back then and the situation hadn't deteriorated so badly.
but focusing on “blowing up launch pads” tells me you probably know very little about the Space industry or development.
That wasn't the focus of my post, but are you suggesting that there is a nonzero number of rocket explosions that would be considered acceptable?
I don't need to be Elon Musk, or even know much about the space industry or development to know that the target number should always be zero.
but are you suggesting that there is a nonzero number of rocket explosions that would be considered acceptable?
....yes? During development specifically. Of course there is.
Let me know how that interview goes, because if the rocket you developed and spent billions of dollars building explodes at launch, you're going to be looking for a new line of work.
I'm sure the next aeronautics company will totally understand. Mondays, am I right?
See, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but you keep showing more and more that you're not following what's happening in the launch business at all.
So for coming up on 10 years now, SpaceX has been absolutely kicking everyone's ass. China is now coming up on being second.
They're following processes of rapid iteration. During design, they build quickly (and relatively cheaply). They launch frequently. Those launches may not go perfectly. Sometimes they explode. But they get a LOT of data. This helps them iterate quickly.
This is different from what Boeing, Blue Origin, etc have been doing (and at different points, at NASA's direction) - the "try to build it slow but steady, and perfect the first time" method. Guess what? That has been working horribly. It takes way way longer, costs way way more, etc. And they've left the door open for SpaceX to take over. They're quickly becoming the ONLY game in town. And neither they nor, say, Blue Origin have really been focused that much on profit.
Rapid Iteration is also what we did early on in the space program. A lot of stuff failed (blew up) but we were making REALLY rapid progress.
Now - once the rockets go into production, they absolutely CAN'T blow up. ESPECIALLY with people inside. That's a totally different thing.
SpaceX just lost had their first operation failure in like a decade. After hundreds of successful launches. It's the best record I believe any rocket series has ever had.
You also picked tbe Shuttle as an example of things working well. It's ironic - that's specifically when everything started turning to shit - massive cost overruns, massive, years-long project delays. The delays for manned spaceflight, for launch systems, were a brand new thing starting with STS.
Blowing shit up is absolutely a valid part of the learning/development phase of rocket design.
Okay, you've made some pretty salient points. I'm not too proud to admit that my understanding of the topic is limited. I appreciate you taking the time to educate me more on the subject.
Man, this has been a nice day full of niceness. It's just...nice.
Have a good weekend, furbag. You're a classy dude/ette.
There is a reason we moved this to the private sector. Govt bureaucrats can't get out of their own way and every project triples in cost, with no single person calling the shots to get the job done. Govt cannot keep up with the pace we need.
Boeing is hot garbage.
SpaceX has a shit face, but they are incredibly competent and effective at iterating their way to space.
NASA in-house projects were historically expensive because they took the approach that they were building single-digit numbers of everything -- very nearly every vehicle was bespoke, essentially -- and because failure was a death sentence politically, they couldn't blow things up and iterate quickly. Everything had to be studied and reviewed and re-reviewed and then non-destructively tested and retested and integration tested and dry rehearsed and wet rehearsed and debriefed and revised and retested and etc. ad infinitum. That's arguably what you want in something like a billion dollar space telescope that you only need one of and has to work right the first time, but the lesson of SpaceX is that as long as you aren't afraid of failure you can start cheap and cheerful, make mistakes, and learn more from those mistakes than you would from packing a dozen layers of bureaucracy into a QC program and have them all spitball hypothetical failure modes for months.
Boeing, ULA and the rest of the old space crew are so used to doing things the old way that they struggle culturally to make the adaptations needed to compete with SpaceX on price, and then in Boeing's case the MBAs also decided that if they stopped doing all that pesky engineering analysis and QA/QC work they could spend all that labor cost on stock buybacks instead.
I agree with everything you say and I am all about the way that you captured the dysfunction of the political apparatus and its inability to deliver for a price and on a date. I think my argument is that that's exactly why the government should not be in charge of this stuff. It should not be political. I don't think there's any way to avoid billboards in space, but at least we'll be able to finally get out there.
The problem is that the private sector faces the same pressures about the appearance of failure. Imagine if Boeing adopted the SpaceX approach now and started blowing up Starliner prototypes on a monthly basis to see what they could learn. How badly would that play in the press? How quickly would their stock price tank? How long would the people responsible for that direction be able to hold on to their jobs before the board forced them out in favor of somebody who'd take them back to the conservative approach?
Heck, even SpaceX got suddenly cagey about their first stage return attempts failing the moment they started offering stakes to outside investors, whereas previously they'd celebrated those attempts that didn't quite work. Look as well at how the press has reacted to Starship's failures, even though the program has been making progress from launch to launch at a much greater pace than Falcon did initially. The fact of the matter is that SpaceX's initial success-though-informative-failure approach only worked because it was bankrolled entirely by one weird dude with cubic dollars to burn and a personal willingness to accept those failures. That's not the case for many others.
Unbridled capitalism sucks ass.
Every form of capitalism becomes unbridled as concentration of wealth allow exploiters to engage in regulatory capture and bribery.
It's only a matter of time.
There is no 'good' capitalism, it is ALL the exploitation of the less powerful.
they call them Boeing because they eventually bounce off the ground like boing
…to the surprise of absolutely no one.
...there are no rules in space
That's objectively wrong
True, I head theres no takesie backsies in space
I mean, who's going to come after you and arrest you in orbit? ISS could declare a mutiny right now and NASA would be powerless until they ran out of supplies.
Once self-sufficient settlements are a thing, that'll be an even bigger question.
Once self-sufficient settlements are a thing, that'll be an even bigger question.
That happened in a British colony once, the mutiny got totally out of hand.
Actually, that may have happened a bunch of times with British colonies...
You could look at it another way... Britain kept its investments. The colonies all use English common law, they pay their debts, and they stopped dumping tea into the harbor
They get their best people from the 737 production and engineering for rocket building.
This meshes with the news that Boeing is run by accountants, not engineers, like it used to be.
Gotta keep those shareholders happy!
Yeah, ask the two US astronauts that are stuck on ISS about that.
The report cites inexperienced workforce, exacerbated by the limited pool to hire from in New Orleans and the non-competitive wages Boeing offers compared to other aerospace companies. Mobile and Huntsville are right there. Lol, pony up, Boeing.
And the report mentions operators are given work instructions that lack detail and require the operator to go diving through multiple levels of specifications and historical records to understand what to do. This speaks to inadequate manufacturing engineers and processes, who are putting out the inadequate work instructions. So I'm assuming the non-competitive pay and retention problems apply to their engineers too, not just the hourly operators and mechanics.
Work for Boeing for bad pay and to see this shit in the news? Or hop over to Mobile, AL to work for Airbus at a better wage on a popular commercial plane with good reliability and a good reputation. Decisions, decisions.
Damn, That's a red flag for anything that flies. I imagine their compliance checklists during assembly are a mess.
I work in automotive as an engineer and that would be a red flag in our industry too. Our safety standards are only a fraction as strict as aerospace for obvious reasons (we’re not shooting cars through the atmosphere at the speed of sound!), but we’d never get away with this with the amount of audits and accountability that we’re held to. This whole saga is absolutely insane.
And then there Tesla with masking tape, dish soap, and 2x4s lmao.
Ah, but Tesla is really an AI company that happens to sell cars.
Hmm, space is a little different because so many products are one-offs. It’s hard to design checklists and detailed procedures when you’re making what are essentially prototypes each time. So you make more general processes and then your engineers apply them as needed to each unique build. It can end up looking like a bit of a mess. Space builds rely a lot on expert techs, good modular documentation, and multiple layers of engineering oversight because things change along the way and you can’t always plan for it.
I’m a process engineer at a different aerospace company. I standardize as much as I can and work hard to make instructions clear but man it’s a struggle. Boeing’s space group needs to pay people enough to retain good talent, because they’re all making decisions all day long.
Bold assumption that someone has written good, comprehensive checklists. Sounds possible if not likely that they're underpaid and under supported too.
Bruhh this is how it is pretty much everywhere... The thing is even if the employee is competent there are but so many times being told your labour ain't shit, you don't deserve money for it ... How many times of no raise will a good worker take before either changing jobs or just doing work that the wages covers.
About time these" leadership" got exposed for their looting
This is the utopia of capitalism.
Oh, agreed. And partially why I mentioned Boeing getting smeared in the news in my statement too. Pay means a lot but it's not everything. Good managers and work a person can be proud of goes a long way.
Space industry attracts a ton of passionate people who would stick around to do cool things for mediocre pay. But not if the pay gets too low and/or when the work is not something to be proud of.
E g., I've already got a mediocre paycheck, why accept a mediocre paycheck and the grief of a worsening reputation. Someone currently at Boeing for mediocre pay can find another mediocre job elsewhere but it will still be better because the new company isn't getting dragged in front of Congress for killing people to save money.
It seems like it is time to nationalize Boeing.
...imagine fuxking NASA pulling this off. After so many fuckups in USA that didn't end with nationalising, a goddamn NASA going "welp, that's it" and managing to push for nationalising Boeing...
NASA’s biggest issue over the last 35 years is that it became a political target. It is really hard to do long term design when your mission changes every 4 years along with a different budget. NASA should have a budget that is only reapproved every 30 years and should not have to worry about outside influence from a president dictating its mission.
Them and the military. There's only one other major airplane military contractor, Lockheed, and then a couple of smaller companies.
The 6th gen fighter program, Next Generation Air Dominance, is supposed to be a family of planes where one human plane controls a small squadron of drones of various models. The Air Force gave contracts for two of those drones to some of the smaller companies beside Boeing and Lockheed. They tend not to come right out and say these things, but a good guess as to why is that they don't want to have those two be the only options.
Oh god, they certainly don't deserve that. When a company screws up this bad you don't buy them... Fuck...
You just stop giving them contracts and watch them go belly up. Problem solved. We have plenty of other aerospace companies to fill the void and plenty of new startups who would love the chance to prove themselves.
When a company is collapsing in on itself, why would you want to pay a bunch of executives for privilege of inheriting their mess? Wait... are you the CEO of Boeing?
Gotta pad those CEO bonuses somehow!
C'mon man, you know that 40 million dollar sign in bonus is absolutely necessary to get at least your garage and kitchen in order when you move.
Honestly most of that gets eaten up just airlifting my mansion. I'm sick of doing it, but I'm glad I invested early in the airliftable frame kit when I had the place built. The foundations wouldn't have held up more than one or two moves otherwise, and there's no way I'm commuting more than 15 mins.
Maybe 🤔 with the right airship we could just work a few lifetimes to move Seattle closer to the East Coast? Maybe as far as Chicago? Sure many will die and loose their homes and way of living?
Just like their planes. Al Jazeera made a really awesome documentary about Boeing and their terrible quality control. They gave some workers at one of the major Boeing assembly facilities hidden cameras and microphones, and let them interview their colleagues. The factory is full of crackheads, and most of Boeing's own employees who literally put the fucking planes together said that they wouldn't fly on these planes themselves.
Jesus Christ.
Rejects from the plane assembly line. Now that's scary!
It's what we call a normal day at Boeing
They did another documentary years prior on the 737 NG, equally damning.
Thanks for the recommendation
At this point the government just needs to sue Boeing into bankruptcy. They cannot be allowed to continue to gamble with others’ lives while taking taxpayer money
The need to seize the company. Boeing holds too many military contracts to be allowed to die. They build planes for the military, so they’ll get an inevitable bailout.
Instead, the government should start seizing parts of the company as part of the bailout. “Oh hey, we paid you all this money, so we own these parts of the company now. Shareholders have been fairly compensated for it by the bailout money, so you can’t say it’s unfair. You have proven that your leadership is lacking and you can’t be allowed to operate without oversight. So now that we own large swaths of the company, we’ll be making lots of the big decisions.”
Nationalize Boeing now
lol boeing gets like half of their money from the government, I don't see the government suing them anytime soon
The US is just collapsing everywhere. What a time to be alive.
I don’t think that’s a fair assessment, everything people have built up to now relies on a significantly greater amount of complexity. There is a lot which works well and is held together by hardworking, unsung normal everyday folks, but you don’t make the national news for getting shit done or keeping stuff functional.
That said, yeah the bean counters have fucking ruined engineering firms, and it’s a story which repeats itself over and over. There’s also the issue of nepo babies or “I know this person” incest in a lot of places where qualified people are passed over for someone “you know”. The nepotism and cronyism phenomenon is a huge problem for many institutions, not just engineering firms. Nepotism and cronyism is not just an American issue, it’s something you see everywhere.
Regarding unqualified people, I do think maybe standards should be raised for entry into some college programs. But the only way raising standards would make sense if we significantly invest in public education. In short, a lot of “breaking” of America is the direct result of short sighted Republican policies.
Boeing shifted production to break the Seattle unions. That's been a sound financial decision so far...except for all of the failures and dead people.
Well Boeing is just overall imploding...
Boeing is just a symptom of the rampant corporate greed and irresponsibility that modern MBAs teach as part of normal daily operations.
It affects everyone, makes everyone less safe and less secure. Enshittification on a world scale brought to you by Next Quarter Only bottom line capitalism.
But the powers that be are fine with it for now, mainly because of class war.
I taught business ethnics for MBAs when i was in graduate school.
The only 'ethics' they learned was 'maximize shareholder value at any price'. They spent an entire semester learning to to argue why murdering people and abusing people was morally justified as long as the share price goes up. That was the curriculum. Nothing else mattered.
If humanity survives this with our records intact, future historians will put a huge chunk of the blame on that mentality.
It really started with Dodge vs Ford, that codified the mentality as mainstream and we have paid the price for it every year since.
Didn't two Chinese rockets just blow up a couple months ago? I don't think a couple specific aerospace examples on the cutting edge are indicative of broader issues lol
Is this “whataboutism”?
Boeing has a track record of shoddy work. As the crown jewel of US manufacturing and the largest exporter, the cumulative failures over the past years are indicative of systemic failures in the US system.
Perhaps there would be less pushback if you heard it from an American?
Boeing Is Everything Wrong With American Capitalism | Robert Reich
Lol
literally every post I see from lemm.ee users is hot trash. Can we please defederate them?
Holy shit. At this moment it really feels like Boarding just need to start at the top and fucking fire everyone involved with safety standards and manufacturing.
Hell no. FAA needs to realize what a disaster they've created by allowing self regulation of this industry and Crack down to a level that essentially strangulates a company like Boeing. Let them die and allow space for something newer with a quality and safety focus to grow. Saying they've fired people and put new people in won't change anything. They'll still slack on safety for profits.
The sad part is that will never happen in a timely manner as things stand currently, thanks to SCOTUS weakening the powers of federal agencies. The FAA should put their foot down, but it will likely get dragged out in legal battles over "the meaning of words like 'safety.'"
Thomas Jefferson never added airplane safety regulations to the Constitution ergo, it's completely unregulated. Also, Justice Alito would like to cite a man with tapestries tied to his arms as he jumped off a cliff in the 9th century saying of course it's safe.
I've wondered about this, killing the "company" never really seemed like that big of a deal, as the structure (both physical building/tool/systems and operationally) don't simply vanish. You still have the knowledge and skillsets in the population, and the supply chains still exist.
The real problem with these "too big to fail" entities is that the people pulling the levers that cause failures never have any consequences whatsoever.
Yeah, you'll always need banks, energy, transportation, defence etc - operational mechanisms for exchanging goods, building, buying etc will never go away or 'fail' - but their operational practices absolutely could and should change
I'm so sick of the wealth class abusing absolutely everything to guarantee themselves more money than they could ever spend.
Sure the FAA needs to do this. We also need to fund the FAA and other regulatory agencies at the level they could. Whole towns in Texas have had large portions of them vaporized. Due to no proper OSHA and hazardous chemical safety handling inspection and accountability. And yes you read that right. Plural, it's happened multiple times.
Often tens to hundreds of inspectors at most. Employed by these agencies are responsible for inspecting tens of thousands of sites each across several States because they are so under staffed and funded. And you want to guess who's responsible?
Sadly getting something new and better will take decades and Airbus cannot handle the (airline) market alone. They also need to have a concurrent cause having an Airbus monopoly could make them sloppy on the long run. The C suite at Airbus are probably the first ones to want Boeing to survive as they know the trouble they’ll be in if they are alone.
Nah. The C suite would love it if they were the only game in town. Shareholder profits and stock goes through the roof. They don't have competition so they don't have to innovate or improve anything but profits. They get a HUGE bump in net worth and "retire" while still collecting their board approved stock options.
Yes the company would eventually kill a ton of people and might be shut down like Boeing, but "I got mine, fuck you".
Yeah I’m not sure about that. Work culture, and even C suite culture, is very different in Europe.
Airbus publicly said they want Boeing to continue being a good opponent. The comments on this video talks a lot about working for one or the other manufacturer and the differences in the way people are treated.
Airbus is still lead by an engineer and not an accountant. That could change for sure but EU country won’t let it slip to a shit company as easy as it happened in the US, just because of our culture.
Worst case scenario, French, German, Spanish and other Airbus locations will go on strikes and riots if conditions are getting worse.
Of course a company would say that they don't want a monopoly publicly. If it's known they are, or want a monopoly, then they are more likely to fall in public favor and get hit with fines and legal action, hurting shareholder profits.
You have a lot of faith that capitalism won't do a capitalism when the opportunity presents itself.
Yes Europe has a lot better hold against the evils of capitalism, but it's still capitalistic.
Ah ah yes thanks I try to dream and be positive even if it’s sometimes dumb 😁
Another thing I forgot is that Airbus (and all EU aviation) are applying the HRO (high reliability organization) and just culture for a long time now.
I have read somewhere that Boeing started implementing just culture after the Max crashes, so very late. And apparently wrongly as some employees still fear repercussions if they make safety reports (and according to latest NTSB report 2 employees had been punish lately for that reason).
If true that is totally unbelievable.
Who cares what Boeing does, the solution is simply to stop giving them contracts. Let them work out how to reimagine their company, just not on our dollar.
That's most industries. Society is falling apart lol. Look how the secret service responded to an assassination attempt on trump. It was absolutely pathetic. These people are supposed to be the best of the best of the best. It doesn't surprise me that other industries are also experiencing this.
NOFX wrote about the rise of ignorance in America and the song "The Idiots Are Taking Over" is more appropriate now than ever before.
full lyrics below. link to song for anyone not familiar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sNWDfryyMk
I'm still thinking they send the "barely qualified" secret servicemen to protect Trump
Lmaooo
it was perfectly fine??? They shot and killed the guy within like 3 seconds of the event happening???
Sure it's weird that he was up there, but i'm not sure that's a failing of SS specifically, but they certainly did their job in regards to neutralizing the threat.
Also trump isn't even the current president, so it's not like he's going to get all the coverage in the world.
The fact he even got shots off while laying on literally one of the only spots a sniper could get a shot off is absolutely bad enough. They should have had minimum one sniper looking at that roof constantly. That's like step one.
i believe they did, though it's worth noting, you're constantly scanning rooftops as a sniper, so there's always going to be a small amount of time before targeting and shooting.
I've heard, havent verified but apparently local police were working the grounds and apparently maybe that roof? So it might have been their responsibility entirely. I'm guessing the kid only peaked the roof shortly before shooting though, that's the only way he would've gotten a shot off.
I don't see how the secret service is relevant to this in literally any way.
Read the comment again lol
Apon rereading, your comment isn't any more coherent. It's like a vague "what is this world coming to?!", drawing disparate concepts together as if they form some grand pattern, but there's nothing there.
Sorry you're dumb then.
The whole word, "No NASA, don't send astronauts on Boeing equipment!"
NASA, ¯_(ツ)_/¯
You lost an l and an upper arm there
That’s Boeing quality for you.
Ship it!
Wrong vehicle.
Rock it!
¯\(ツ)/¯
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
You need 3 slashes for the right arm.
Ouch!
me when I don't have proper fallback fonts installed:
Define "unqualified."
Like, unqualified to even build a see-saw for a public playground? Agreed
Unqualified to work for Boeing? Highly debatable at this point
Can we please instate a corporate death penalty? And some sort of persona non grata for executives who contributed to the condemnable behavior?
Also, new rule: if the sum of pay and benefits for a company's C-suite and stock buybacks is greater than the sum of the pay for your non-contractor employees then all the stocks bought back must be transferred to your employees and contractors.
That shit doesn't even work for petty crimes, why do you think it would work for people who can buy their way out of it?
Don't say "no" just because it hasn't worked yet!
Be bold! Be daring!
Stomp on a CEO's crotch!
Nah, I don't want to be choked out by their private militia.
But hey, if that's something you're up for dying pointlessly for, be my guest!
Stomping on their crotch will hurt them less than taking their money.
Fine the CEO’s personally at 90% yearly salary for fuckups like this and shit will change real fast.
this will keep happening if you don't put people in prison for it.
Silly billy, rich people don't go to prison anymore, that's for the poors.
of course. the prison is for people who steal hundreds, not millions.
That’s how you squeeze profits from a good company and turn it to shit. That’s the capitalist nazi way!
Thank you Cory Doctorow for coining that term. As the world gets ever shittier, at least we have a way to describe it.
Every company is trying for the most unqualified workforce these days… but at least most of them don’t involve flight.
Well that’s nothing new - I worked for them “briefly” (as in weeks - ended up with a better job offer!!) and as an actual aircraft mechanic I was disgusted by what I saw - they had supervising roles filled with non-aircraft trades people, training was done by a former boat mechanic, there were butchers and carpenters - who, if you asked them thought they were far more capable than an aircraft mechanic as, actual aircraft trades are considered “problematic” by Boeing management (who are all ex Toyota staff for the most part…) because - aircraft mechanics are too slow for a production line environment as we tend to take our time too much for their liking (oh because we want to get it right first time?!) 🤦🏼♀️
I left and a week later the Max was grounded - the garbage that was spewing from senior management right before the grounding was eye roll inducing - about how they stand by the product bla bla bla and have no idea how shiny new aircraft could just fall out the sky…..of course we know how that turned out for them….
But yeah, Boeing, like Rolls Royce are not the brand a lot of people should think of as “high quality” until they sort their QA shit out and start employing actual aircraft tradespeople and engineeers who know what they are doing 🤷🏼♀️
Boeing was one of my accounts back before the pandemic. I had to respond to RFPs where my employer sold services to Boeing. They sucked to work with and just didn't understand really basic things about the services they were requesting in their own RFPs.
Disney and Walmart on the other hand were great. They were not pushovers, but they were consistently friendly, and they always knew their shit.
In a not so shocking comment, Boeing is run by an unqualified management.
imagine we find out Boeing really did build that submersible
I still hate that NAA ended up in Boeing's hands after only two buyouts.
Totally nothing wrong with an aerospace company buying out its competitors and then promptly liquidating its assets.
Google does it all the time!
Sounds like Boeing is being run by an unqualified work force
This wouldn't be a problem if we still had NASA doing the shuttle program, or some continuation of it, rather than outsourcing our spacecraft to the cutthroat lowest-bidder private sector. Is it really any surprise that SpaceX and Boeing are blowing up on the launchpads and having quality control issues when their sole objective is to make money? If we nationalized these initiatives again and cancelled the private contracts with these crooks, there would be no incentive for profiteering and corners would not get cut as often as they do now.
Sure, it would be a big cost to the taxpayer once again, but I think I'd rather have a reliable space program and like 2% less military budget to fund it, I think we'll manage somehow without producing more tanks and planes that nobody is asking for.
NASA blew up a fair few rockets, and lost two shuttles, so that's not necessarily the better option.
Fair point, I don't want to fixate on that one aspect of the colossal technical challenge that is getting spacecraft into orbit, but I'm still of the opinion that a nationalized and fully government-funded space program will always yield better results than a privatized one because there is no profit-taking incentive.
While I like the sentiment, you should know that you are absolutely, completely, 100% wrong.
The space shuttle was the deadliest spacecraft in human history, not just in the US, but in the entire world. And mind you, NASA spacecrafts are all also quite literally built from parts delivered by the lowest bidder.
For the record Boeing sucks and is doing a pretty crappy job right now, but regardless, it would be safer to launch on the Starliner 20 times in a row than to ride in the space shuttle once. At least the Starliner has a launch escape system.
To be fair to the shuttle though, it is objectively cool. While not a good way to get to space, that thing was awesome in every sense! I truly wish I had gotten to see it launch in person. Also the RS-25, the main engine, is a pretty badass rocket engine, there was so much about that vehicle that was great, it's a shame that it never quite fulfilled its promise.
I followed the Space Shuttle program pretty heavily as a kid and got to see a few launches from the Cape.
Truly loved the innovative look and the futuristic (lol, at the time) feel.
In retrospect, it was a good try with bad funding, and an exceptionally expensive satellite positioner that never lived up to its promised turn around time.
I loved it, but it kind of was an objective flop.
spacex was intended to blow up on launch pads
boeing was not intended to drop doors off of planes, ever.
There is a slight difference here.
I mean, spaceX has a fantastic track record. In their entire history, they only once failed to deliver a payload to orbit, and that was like just a month ago that they had their first failure after well over 300 successful launches. That's record setting reliability in orbital rockets.
They blow up a lot of rockets in testing and development, but that's kind of just how rocket development goes. It's the same for NASA, Russia, and everyone else who designs rockets. You blow some up during development.
I'm just saying, I'm not sure you can lump SpaceX and Boeing together, they're very different companies with very different track records.
Who do you think built the shuttle...?
Also, not defending the Musk shitstain, but focusing on "blowing up launch pads" tells me you probably know very little about the Space industry or development.
Not Boeing. Rockwell design and built the orbiter. Boeing later bought Rockwell im the mid 90's.
I probably should have been more specific, though you're right.
They seem to think though that NASA themselves did most of the design and manufacturing or something, instead of farming a ton of it out to various contractors (Thiokol, etc). That absolutely happened with STS.
In fact, the Space Shuttle is where costs and time frames and project management and etc started to go off the rails - and led to where we are with Boeing and others today. It's a bad one to choose to make his point - even if we were actually still getting SOME shit done back then and the situation hadn't deteriorated so badly.
That wasn't the focus of my post, but are you suggesting that there is a nonzero number of rocket explosions that would be considered acceptable?
I don't need to be Elon Musk, or even know much about the space industry or development to know that the target number should always be zero.
....yes? During development specifically. Of course there is.
Let me know how that interview goes, because if the rocket you developed and spent billions of dollars building explodes at launch, you're going to be looking for a new line of work.
I'm sure the next aeronautics company will totally understand. Mondays, am I right?
See, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but you keep showing more and more that you're not following what's happening in the launch business at all.
So for coming up on 10 years now, SpaceX has been absolutely kicking everyone's ass. China is now coming up on being second.
They're following processes of rapid iteration. During design, they build quickly (and relatively cheaply). They launch frequently. Those launches may not go perfectly. Sometimes they explode. But they get a LOT of data. This helps them iterate quickly.
This is different from what Boeing, Blue Origin, etc have been doing (and at different points, at NASA's direction) - the "try to build it slow but steady, and perfect the first time" method. Guess what? That has been working horribly. It takes way way longer, costs way way more, etc. And they've left the door open for SpaceX to take over. They're quickly becoming the ONLY game in town. And neither they nor, say, Blue Origin have really been focused that much on profit.
Rapid Iteration is also what we did early on in the space program. A lot of stuff failed (blew up) but we were making REALLY rapid progress.
Now - once the rockets go into production, they absolutely CAN'T blow up. ESPECIALLY with people inside. That's a totally different thing.
SpaceX just lost had their first operation failure in like a decade. After hundreds of successful launches. It's the best record I believe any rocket series has ever had.
You also picked tbe Shuttle as an example of things working well. It's ironic - that's specifically when everything started turning to shit - massive cost overruns, massive, years-long project delays. The delays for manned spaceflight, for launch systems, were a brand new thing starting with STS.
Blowing shit up is absolutely a valid part of the learning/development phase of rocket design.
Okay, you've made some pretty salient points. I'm not too proud to admit that my understanding of the topic is limited. I appreciate you taking the time to educate me more on the subject.
Man, this has been a nice day full of niceness. It's just...nice.
Have a good weekend, furbag. You're a classy dude/ette.
There is a reason we moved this to the private sector. Govt bureaucrats can't get out of their own way and every project triples in cost, with no single person calling the shots to get the job done. Govt cannot keep up with the pace we need.
Boeing is hot garbage.
SpaceX has a shit face, but they are incredibly competent and effective at iterating their way to space.
NASA in-house projects were historically expensive because they took the approach that they were building single-digit numbers of everything -- very nearly every vehicle was bespoke, essentially -- and because failure was a death sentence politically, they couldn't blow things up and iterate quickly. Everything had to be studied and reviewed and re-reviewed and then non-destructively tested and retested and integration tested and dry rehearsed and wet rehearsed and debriefed and revised and retested and etc. ad infinitum. That's arguably what you want in something like a billion dollar space telescope that you only need one of and has to work right the first time, but the lesson of SpaceX is that as long as you aren't afraid of failure you can start cheap and cheerful, make mistakes, and learn more from those mistakes than you would from packing a dozen layers of bureaucracy into a QC program and have them all spitball hypothetical failure modes for months.
Boeing, ULA and the rest of the old space crew are so used to doing things the old way that they struggle culturally to make the adaptations needed to compete with SpaceX on price, and then in Boeing's case the MBAs also decided that if they stopped doing all that pesky engineering analysis and QA/QC work they could spend all that labor cost on stock buybacks instead.
I agree with everything you say and I am all about the way that you captured the dysfunction of the political apparatus and its inability to deliver for a price and on a date. I think my argument is that that's exactly why the government should not be in charge of this stuff. It should not be political. I don't think there's any way to avoid billboards in space, but at least we'll be able to finally get out there.
The problem is that the private sector faces the same pressures about the appearance of failure. Imagine if Boeing adopted the SpaceX approach now and started blowing up Starliner prototypes on a monthly basis to see what they could learn. How badly would that play in the press? How quickly would their stock price tank? How long would the people responsible for that direction be able to hold on to their jobs before the board forced them out in favor of somebody who'd take them back to the conservative approach?
Heck, even SpaceX got suddenly cagey about their first stage return attempts failing the moment they started offering stakes to outside investors, whereas previously they'd celebrated those attempts that didn't quite work. Look as well at how the press has reacted to Starship's failures, even though the program has been making progress from launch to launch at a much greater pace than Falcon did initially. The fact of the matter is that SpaceX's initial success-though-informative-failure approach only worked because it was bankrolled entirely by one weird dude with cubic dollars to burn and a personal willingness to accept those failures. That's not the case for many others.
Unbridled capitalism sucks ass.
Every form of capitalism becomes unbridled as concentration of wealth allow exploiters to engage in regulatory capture and bribery.
It's only a matter of time.
There is no 'good' capitalism, it is ALL the exploitation of the less powerful.
they call them Boeing because they eventually bounce off the ground like boing
…to the surprise of absolutely no one.
...there are no rules in space
That's objectively wrong
True, I head theres no takesie backsies in space
I mean, who's going to come after you and arrest you in orbit? ISS could declare a mutiny right now and NASA would be powerless until they ran out of supplies.
Once self-sufficient settlements are a thing, that'll be an even bigger question.
That happened in a British colony once, the mutiny got totally out of hand.
Actually, that may have happened a bunch of times with British colonies...
You could look at it another way... Britain kept its investments. The colonies all use English common law, they pay their debts, and they stopped dumping tea into the harbor
They get their best people from the 737 production and engineering for rocket building.
This meshes with the news that Boeing is run by accountants, not engineers, like it used to be.
Gotta keep those shareholders happy!
Yeah, ask the two US astronauts that are stuck on ISS about that.
Really? Well now aint that a surprise? /s