Is defederation from lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works still necessary?
This is more of a question for the admins, but this can certainly be a more open discussion.
Per this thread, beehaw defederated from lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works two months ago, around the time that the reddit exodus was happening. Lemmy was blowing up, those instances had an open sign-up policy, and this meant that admins of other instances (like Beehaw) that wanted to heavily moderate their communities became quickly overwhelmed with the number of users from these two instances. Beehaw defederated to make the workload more realistic.
Two months on, I'm wondering if this defederation is still necessary. It seems to me that Lemmy overall has slowed down a lot, and maybe the flow of users from these outside servers would not be as overwhelming as it was before? I respect the decision of the admins one way or the other - I know that the lack of moderation tools was another factor in this decision. I'm just curious if this is something that has been considered recently?
From where I'm standing, I can't really much has changed unfortunately.. which really sucks..
Lemmy.world has grown substantially meanwhile the moderation tools have not improved at all. All I can say about the moderation tools is that we now know that the tools suck more than they used to.
Here's a list of moderation problems that we have discovered since then:
Despite these newly known problems, there have been exactly no improvement whatsoever to the moderation tools. It is honestly unsettling and terrifying.
I just finished writing a small book in a thread about federation on literature.cafe yesterday, the thrust of which is that moderation, not federation is the threadiverse's killer feature, and when in doubt smaller instances shouldn't federate with larger ones. This list makes a perfect post-script to my point. Do you mind if I crib it? I'm a big fan of what you're doing here. I'd also love your feedback on my observations if you have time.
No, you are definitely right. There is a time and place for federation, it's like a town deciding to incorporate with a larger region. If the town is too early in its infancy, the overall culture and debate will be drowned out by larger servers. But the risk of also not federating the town means that there is a chance of the community dying off. I'm thinking there should at least be a snaller period of considering the effects of opening up your server to the network, and consulting other instance admins about the idea.
Support. No one wants to hear about the negative stuff about their platform of choice, but it's important to talk about it so it can improve.
JFC there are a lot of typos in your comment! No worries since most of it is discernible. I'm in agreement with all of these points regardless.
I think I corrected them - feel free to tell me more specifically if you still see some.
đ
Berson = Beehaw person.
And the plural is Beeple.
TIL
I hope the moderation tools improve! There are a few niche l.w communities I was looking for a few weeks ago
Why not remove them as mod? I don't understand why you would keep anyone in the mod team that has been banned from the community?
Yes that is a problem with Lemmy in general. But why this only seen as a problem for people from Lemmy World and sh.itjust.works?
We fix this by having enough admins to go through these reports as soon as possible.
Why ban for 9999 days if you can leave it empty and perma-ban?
Anyway, I agreed that there are a lot of issues that haven't improved, but at least I heard that users will be able to block instances themselves soon so fingers crossed. But Beehaw defederated from Lemmy.World and sh.itjust.works very early on and in the meantime they are federated with instances that are as big as Lemmy.World was back then.
Oversight - that simple.
That is not actually a problem with Lemmy in general - community bans do block posting unlike site bans. As for why, well, it was done at that point in time because Lemmy.World and Sh.it just.works took a lot of moderation time - for one reason or another, bad actors liked to go there. I have no reason to believe this has changed now that .World is now many times bigger than it was.
Oversight or malice. You can break the modlog of everyone you're federated with because of this - that is dangerous.
Size doesn't necessarily mean problems though. I think it's probably a culture problem as the root cause but I don't think .World wants to tackle that problem so all I can do is wait for better tools.
I really don't get the "oversight" part of keeping someone who is banned from a community on the moderator team there. Can you give me an example how this would make sense?
The modlog breaking XXXX amount of days bug was reported to the devs by me btw. And it was fixed on 12/08: https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy-ui/pull/2058
It just feels like you are looking for excuses to keep defederated while there is no actual problem that can not be handled by working together as admins. We've always said we are open to discuss actions but you've always said when the "when modtools are available". Now it's a culture problem - how are Lemmy World users different from lemm.ee, midwest.social, programming.dev or other instances? And what do you propose should be done to tackle these issues?
Oversight as in, "I would never think this would not work so I commited a mistake".
And I stand by that.
I generally think that Lemmy.world's focus on growth while being the biggest instance results in a bad site culture but I still think this problem can be tamed on our side with better mod tools.
It's bewildering how the development team has ignored the problems with data not federating properly and the performance of the app.
Is it a problem of contributions (nobody made a PR adding those missing features so they don't make it), technical challenge (those features would be hard to implement due to how Lemmy and federations work) or policy (whoever is maintaining of Lemmy does not want these features to happen)?
Some of these are likely not hard to fix but some of these are a bit more complicated like fixing the report system.
So it'd say it's largely the former two though I'd like to mention that these issues appear to not be treated as critical problems by the main Lemmy developers so I believe this is also a policy problem.
Hi,
I'm speaking on behalf of the admin team of Lemmy World - we feel like we have to step in here and give some feedback to the things being said in this thread and give our perspective.
About "Supporting nazi's":
So we support nazi's because it took us 'long' to defederate from exploding heads? That's straight up false. We were one of the first instances to defederate with them and advocated heavily to have them defederated on other instances. FYI Lemmy World as a whole is just over 2 months old and so is this post: https://lemmy.world/post/747912
There was an issue early on with the original moderator of the Lemmy World https://lemmy.world/c/conservative community which was handled instantly:
The problematic moderator https://lemmy.world/u/OptionHome that was posting misinformation (and worse) was banned
The https://lemmy.world/c/conservative community was given to other moderators.
We asked people to stop bombaring the /c/conservative community with anti-conservative posts as to allow civil discourse. https://lemmy.world/post/149519
The https://lemmy.world/c/maga community was also banned
We take a hard stance on extremism from both sides of the political spectrum, and we believe that civil discourse should always be the first option. We ban hate communities on sight no matter whose side they are on, and we work hard to resolve the hundreds of reports we receive each day. As of today, 3733 users were banned from Lemmy.World, and that number will probably have gone up by the time you read this comment. We follow-up on moderation teams if we see reports that stay open for too long and if communities are abandoned we actively look to replace the moderation team.
So we ask everyone to keep sending in reports when you see any post that breaks the Lemmy World rules which can be found here: https://lemmy.world/legal.
About Beehaw's decision to defederate with us: Even though we don't agree with it, we have always been supportive of Beehaw and their choice to defederate with us until the mod tools improve. Even when the question gets posted in our community we defended the decision: https://lemmy.world/post/895811.
But wether or not Beehaw will refederate with us is ofcourse 100% your decision.
Can you please give examples of liberal or left-leaning hate groups you have had to ban?
They banned Hexbear.
Lol they aren't leftists
Nobody is, you'll never find a true Scottsman.
Can you please give examples of liberal or left-leaning hate groups that even exist?
Yeah, that's what I was getting at. Note the lack of response.
Here are my two cents as an outsider looking in. I spend ~15-30 mins a day on Lemmy (usually while doing other things), so I see a decent amount of content but I am not at the leading edge of posts. When I look at posts, I rarely, if ever see spam. For the most part there is civil conversations and those that attempt to derail them are downvoted and, in some cases, banned.
Does this mean that moderation isn't a problem? No, I am but one user. However, it does indicate it is not a chronic issue. Personally I would like to see you guys refederate, as that could only increase the quality of discussions throughout the fediverse.
Thank you. And if you should see anything that goes against the Lemmy World rules (https://lemmy.world/legal) please report it.
I trust the admins. I was attracted to beehaw specifically because of the tight moderation. If they think they can keep to the same high standards and refederate, great. If not, oh well. I'd rather miss out on some content than expose myself to rude assholes, bigots, fascists etc
Completely agree! I trust the admins, they have proven that they know how to run a community that stays kind â¤ď¸
I agree with this too. I also think if people don't like how beehaw is there's a ton of other options but not many like this. It's nice to have a safer space to chill and browse without all the nonsense.
Iâm from kbin, hereâs my perspective.
Stay defederated from lemmy.world. The admins are at the very least sympathetic towards fascists being on their instance as long as theyâre âpolite.â
Shit just works is mostly fine, but world is a shithole and honestly I wish everyone would defederate them to force them to be broken up or isolated.
Honestly I would suggest defederatibf from lemm.ee as well. I have noticed a ton of fascists originating from there.
Not sure what you mean by ton of fascists originating from lemm.ee, but please be sure to report users if you notice something weird, rather than trying to create random defederation in the fediverse.
I agree. I haven't noticed anything from lemm.ee in my casual browsing.
Considering the last weird argument I somehow stumbled into on lemmy.world, I completely agree. Things go off the rails far too fast over there.
Example?
https://kbin.social/m/politics@lemmy.world/t/366019/-/comment/1806367
FYI that link doesn't work for us beehaw folks - the link you used is specifically for kbin users to view lemmy.world.
He's linking to his own comment. There is no actual example.
Itâs a comment Iâd made previously that covers the same topic. Sorry for not annotating my life enough for your convenience
The comment would be more useful if you linked to the threads you reference in it.
Would you mind doing a copy/paste of that comment here?
Are you talking about /c/conservative on Lemmy World? That moderator was instantly banned from Lemmy World and the community was handed over to a different mod team.
This is the thread: https://lemmy.world/post/136470
Not my comment, I was just quoting it here since the original commenter linked to their comment on kbin which isn't terribly useful to users here. You'd have to ask @AngrilyEatingMuffins@kbin.social
Thank you.
How does that cover it though? There's no further evidence in that comment either. Are we supposed to just take your word for it?
I love how your example is just you linking to your own comment.
thank you for your take! being here on beehaw (and being relatively new to lemmy in general), i have not had a ton of interactions with either of these instances. This came up for me because there are well-populated communities in those spaces that i want to subscribe to. That said, if World is that rife with fascists, then it is obviously not worth the gain in communities.
I have an account on world, and I've not come across any fascist stuff. Then again, I've blocked several communities like politics, where such people may tend to congregate.
Personally, I treat Beehaw as a standalone community. I do not really see the point of Beehaw federating with others, when the rules, and feel of the community, is so different.
I prefer using a Beehaw account for Beehaw, even gave it a yellow colored theme so it's clear that I'm browsing Beehaw, and know that it's "safe" browsing Local/New.
I appreciate your take! For me, I don't really want to make multiple accounts for Lemmy, even if that seems to be a common way to use it. I like the size of beehaw - it keeps me away from the "endless feed" nature of Reddit.
I did the same but I only browse "local" on it since I can access the rest of the fediverse from my other account and I don't want to accidentally double dip.
But it's not.
Defederation should only ever be used as a last resort. Every instance will have some amount of problematic users, or even users you simply don't agree with.
If we'd all defederate from one another because some users on each instance are out of line, the Fediverse would die out quickly.
I've recently made a blog post about this subject if you'd like to read it : https://lionir.ca/posts/open-limitless-federation/
That said, defederation is a tool like any to build site culture and moderate spaces. If the only thing we can have are awful spaces because we should not curate our own community, we'd be better off not federating at all. Thankfully, most admins understand this and do take actions when necessary.
The main problem I personally have with defederation is that it can make it very difficult to discover and participate in already niche communities.
Sure, being open to everyone comes with its problems. But a large user base that's able to connect with each other is essential to these niche communities. Let's say I had an interest in Virtual Boy homebrew development. Say someone created a community for this on lemmy.world, I would obviously want to join this one instead of creating my own, because we'd likely already only be a handful of people. Now a lot of instances start defederating from lemmy.world for whatever reason(s) (and sure, there are likely good reasons to do so). This would likely completely kill such a niche community. Sure, you could try and coordinate moving the community to a different instance, but finding an instance that isn't defederated from any of each users' home instances will be hard if defederation becomes so commonplace. Users could also all create an account on that new instance, but most users probably don't want to create dozens of accounts because each of their communities happens to be on a different instance.
I already created accounts on multiple instances because the instance I was using either defededated from communities I wanted to interact with, or other instances with communities I wanted to interact with defederated with my home instance. I don't even care about my accounts as such (content history, upvote count or whatever), and transferring subscribed communities (and saved posts/comments) is done with a simple script within minutes or even seconds, but having to find a new instance every few weeks because instances start defederating from one another can be cumbersome (and again, it will eventually lead to shrunk niche communities).
If I see a user or community that I don't want to interact with, I simply block it and move on.
"a lot of instances start defederating with Lemmy world"?
Besides beehaw, which ones are you talking about?
That was just part of my theoretical example of what would be my "horror" scenario. I don't know which instances defederate with lemmy.world off the top of my head.
EDIT: To clarify, I don't think the (de)federation situation is terrible in its current state. I'm saying that it can go downhill pretty fast if instances start defederating others because some non-critical amount of users of the other instance have political/world views that don't align with theirs. Of course a line has to be drawn somewhere and I 100% agree with defederation of instances that are for example dedicated to nazis or whatever, I just don't think defederation of general purpose (or broader purpose at least) instances is a good idea, even if these instances are also a home to some questionable people.
My original comment was in reply to the parent comment suggesting that defederation from lemm.ee (which happens to be my home instance, at least for this account which is the one I use the most) should be considered because it is home to fascists. It's not purpose-built for fascists, there may happen to be some fascists on this instance because it's open registration (and I think open registration is a good thing in most cases).
That depends on the, particular, situation. Using words like 'should', in your estimation here, shows that you've thrown the baby out with the bathwater. You haven't carefully thought through all of the possible scenarios.
I agree, this is kinda hurting the fediverse.
I came here because I happened to see a post on lemmynsfw (coming from lemmy.world through federation) about Threads, and I was looking to reply from beehaw (because replying with a lemmynsfw account gives a certain "flair" of course) so I was looking for that post here. But I couldn't find it anywhere. Then I started looking into the reason here. Then I found this post which explained it.
But I think it's important to realise that this way the fediverse will stay very niche and fragmented. It would be better to let the users have a choice who they want to see. And defederate only in very heavy situations (for example, nobody would expect beehaw to federate with gab.com because they support actual total nazis). But blocking lemmy.world as one of the biggest instances is... strange.
The thing is, I came here as a new user because spez makes reddit so inhospitable with his dick moves. So I went to https://join-lemmy.org/ and found beehaw. (well in fact I went to lemmy.ml first but didn't like the attitude there). But join-lemmy doesn't describe this whole complex fabric of defederation, it appears as if I could see the whole fediverse from beehaw. Because lemmy.world is a really major instance this is a little bit disingenous. For a new user like me (and a very technical one) this is really hard to grasp. And will lead to users being put off.
I think this whole fragmentation thing is a much bigger threat to the fediverse than Threads is to be honest.
I saw the same on Mastodon, with a lot of German sites instantly blocking federation as soon as another instance doesn't copy exactly the same set of rules word for word (so no incidents are even necessary). In my opinion this hurts the fediverse a lot. As a user I don't want to maintain accounts everywhere, the whole point of ActivityPub was not having to do that.
And don't forget that not all communities on lemmy.world might necessarily bad. Reddit itself is full of toxic communities like the old the_donald (now banned of course). But also really good ones. The same is true for lemmy.world. By by defederating we're blocking the chance of even seeing them.
Does Kbin show you what instances users are on? Recently lemm.ee has had a high quantity of users from another instance interact with their posts discussing defederation.
Personally I have not once seen a lemm.ee user fitting the description of "fascist"
Stay defederated. lemmy.world is just hot garbage imo. They were sitting there bashing beehaw and accusing beehaw of being freeloaders for defederating, hating on beehaw which they do all the time anyway, and generally are incredibly rude, transphobic, and fascist. I had an awful time on there and it was the first place I checked out coming from reddit too. Just truly a bad time overall. You'd swear some of the most toxic redditors went there. Oh and lastly, they have this thing that is super bizarre but they seem to think they are the best instance and are better than everyone else and that kind of attitude stinks and seems to greatly clash with the idea of beehaw itself.
Lemmy.world feels the most Reddit-like in my experience. Beehaw felt... different even when I was browsing it from Lemmy.ca in April and the entire Lemmyverse as a whole had maybe a couple dozen posts a day. There were real neat and in-depth discussions by people who were capable of feeling and caring, and no propaganda spam that many instances had. We had a few bumps along the way but overall I'm still very happy about how things are.
100% yes. This is a great way to describe it all. I also keep seeing people complaining about slow growth but at what cost do they want faster growth? Memes that are just disgusting? Racism? Transphobia? That's what you get a lot of times (not always) with a fast growing community especially with the lack of mod tools from what I have understood. There's no connecting in those spaces just a lot of fighting for no reasons and enforcement of rules is lackluster at best.
We handle our reports daily and urge our users to keep reporting anything that goes against our rules.
This and your other comments are exactly my point. I was bombarded every time I commented and the attitude over there is terrible. You people can keep ignoring this stuff all you want and excusing it away, but my experience was so bad I almost quit lemmy all together and I'm not alone. That place is toxic and the harassment is out of control. When you tolerate intolerance no matter how much you claim you don't, things get bad really fast. Even to the point to come in here where people are just sharing their experiences to try and shove it down our throats that you aren't what we claim, and this excuse and that excuse, and to invalidate us in a safe space proves my point. Also if you were truly accepting of Beehaw defederating why would you even come here to stir the pot so much? You wouldn't. You'd respect it and leave us alone. It's ridiculous. This isn't a good look and really drives the point home on why I found another space. This just absolutely proves to me that I want nothing to do with lemmy.world ever again if I can help it. I don't care if other people disagree with me or if they like lemmy.world, or even have a totally different experience from me, that's fine, but I should be able to leave that place and share my experience and thoughts safely without being harassed by it further. Just totally unacceptable. I purposefully left and the fact that I have to argue my position with someone from there somewhere totally different is absolutely wild.
So incredibly childish.
I replied somewhere else in this thread but we - the admins of lemmy world - have always been supportive of the beehaw decision to wait until better tools come along for moderation. We went through a few growing pains with LW but I'm happy to see how far we have come already and we keep working to make things better. Our legal page with the rulesets is actively being maintained and defines what we stand for: https://lemmy.world/legal.
I'm on Lemmy.world every day and I've never seen any of that. I don't doubt it exists, but it's definitely not a problem on any of the communities I'm subscribed to.
This is interesting because this kept happening on lemmy.world to me too. People would deny seeing things that were easily available to find in abundance. I mean great if you're avoiding those things but it seems like a lot of us have had the same issue. It's extremely frustrating when people then jump on you for making things up and demanding screenshots or links because lemmy.world is so perfect and so much better than everything else and those aren't my words.
I'm not jumping on you - I'm just pointing out lemmy.world isn't a total write off. There are about 20k monthly active users on that instance and about 20k of those people are polite, reasonable people who post interesting content.
With any large community like that there's always going to be some people who're problematic, but either the moderators on lemmy.world are deleting them before I see them, or else it's happening on communities I don't subscribe to (probably a mix of both).
I think Beehaw should re-federate lemmy.world as soon as the moderation tools are better. In particular the cross-instance moderation issues should be sorted out. The key to a functioning fediverse is to ensure that everyone across instances can work together to tackle bad content. Many hands make light work.
I don't really care about "growth". Lemmy is a community not a corporation. What I care about is when someone starts an interesting discussion, are there "enough" people who take part in that discussion? I see threads on Beehaw (and even on Lemmy.World) that get zero replies. That sucks.
Sorry - I didn't mean to imply that you were jumping on me, it was just what you said reminded me of that happening with others on lemmy.world is all.
No worries at all (PS: I just edited my comment, with a point I should have made originally).
I'm just finding the more comments there are especially again on lemmy.world, the more bad stuff there is which I suppose may vary from person to person. Not to invalidate your experience, but again it's interesting to see even in this thread how many folks share my experience with having a very negative time on there. If the whole tone of the place is that they are the best and they purposefully also attack other instances I'm not sure many places will even want to deal with that either. No matter the case it will be interesting to see how all of this goes over time.
I would rather there be no discussion over a bunch of low quality shit posting ďżźand rage baiting tbh
I can only say that I spend less time on beehaw because there are communities on both of those instances I want to interact with. This isn't really an argument to refederate because as an end user I can filter the noise and focus on the communities I want, but I know admins don't have that luxury. It's more of an impact statement. I like beehaw, and I don't want to leave, but I do probably spend more time with my other account just because there's more activity I'm interested in there. So I fully support whatever decision gets made and certainly support this community, but I can't be the only user whos spending less time here than I otherwise might.
Yes it is. Yes it is.
If you really interact with the lemmy community you know they are very pro "freeze peach", which means it comes with all the fascists, all the phobias, and the trolls.
I like Beehaw for what it is. Tight moderation.
Lemmy World is not a "free speech" platform.
Point 1 in the "Principles that Guide Us" section: https://lemmy.world/legal
ok....? But it is not my experience there and from the responses here they seem to agree with me.
A principle is not useful when it is not enforced.
It is a "free speech" platform insomuch as it is intentionally making space for people with fundamentally conflicting beliefs.
There is no c/conservative on Beehaw, and many of us would not be here if there was. Extremism is not the only thing that is incompatible with my beliefs, and I get enough daily exposure to Neoliberal and Conservative viewpoints that I don't want to deal with it when I'm relaxing. It's why I haven't had Facebook or Twitter in years.
Lemmy.world and Beehaw just have different goals.
I would like to note that sh.itjust.works hasn't had unverified sign ups enabled for a while now. I have an account there too so it really doesn't make much of a difference to me but I would like an updated stance from the admins here. The initial concerns they voiced don't seem as relevant as they once were.
As for lemmy.world, it's the biggest, and issues can arise from that, so that makes more sense to me.
My takeaway from this thread is that it makes sense to keep lemmy.world off the rolls, but maybe sh.itjust.works is safe to refederate? I just want to join their Patient Gamers community đ
I think so. sh.itjust.works is no where near as big. And the admin there has always been very responsive and transparent whenever I had concerns. The patient gamers community is also very friendly.
Yes Lemmy World is the biggest but we take our reports serious and have teams working hard to keep it a friendly space. Again, keep reporting the posts that go against the site or community rules.
I do. I generally don't have problems on lemmy.world communities. I'd just understand the hesitation to refederate. To me if that's on the table I think it'd make sense to do one at a time, and if one has to be first it should be the smaller one.
Stay defederated. On top of all the great points already made, I don't understand people demanding instances behave a certain way. If you don't like the way this instance is handled go find another one.
Who's demanding anything? Surely we can discuss it amongst ourselves as a community?
There is a lot of chatter that I've seen in other instances where Beehaw's stance ranckled a number of folks.
Nothing's wrong with discussing things with the intent to make them better for everyone
Yes, instances can do whatever they want and users should seek instances that match their needs but:
Edit: context
Edit2: Not intended as advocation for refederating. I'm content with the content available to me so I don't have a strong opinion.
My understanding is admins of some of those communities actually agreed with the decision because of the lack of proper moderation tools to handle their new scale. Some are basically un-moderated as well.
Speaking for Lemmy World - we look for new moderators when we notice communities are un-moderated. We follow the reports closely and if we notice they aren't picked up by that community's moderators we reach out.
And yes, we were also told initially that it was because of a lack of moderation tools but now @Lionir@beehaw.org seems indicate a "cultural" difference. But we are left wondering what the difference with LW and the other instances they federate with are.
Having accounts on both instances, I can say the "cultural" difference is the moderation style, and user expectations:
The problem is not just having moderators on LW, but moderating LW's userbase on federated instances. Some number of LW's users seem to be hostile towards Beehaw, and there is little LW can do about that other than banning their accounts, which I don't think would be that much better for anyone.
Didn't have to be an essay, it just had to be something that answered the 3 questions it asked about why you want to join beehaw.
Precisely. I think the "write an essay" has become kind of a meme among non-Beeple about Beehaw at this point; I first saw it on Reddit a couple months ago, kept seeing it on and off, and just today saw it again.
It was also in part what made me join: when I saw what it was all about, I was like "so... people who believe that thinking before answering is too much effort, won't be here... nice..." đ
The kind of people who keep calling it an essay are the exact kind of people I donât want around anyway. Either itâs too much to ask of them to write a couple of sentences, or they havenât even bothered to look and inform themselves before spitting their hot take. Neither personality is desirable lol
The TLDR behavior and won't click offsite links and references and want a constant stream of tiny little ideas. There was a time when Reddit wasn't like that and it became the culture of TLDR and downvote-disagree.
Reddit could have single-handedly taken on clickbait in 2014 or earlier by people replacing news headlines with sincere earnest descriptions. But the clickbait became what people swam in.
My friend put some pretty simple stuff and got denied. Granted it may have been during a negative influx
Feel free to message me on Beehaw or email at support@beehaw.org, I'll review the message and say why I might've denied it though I can't answer for others.
For sure, I'll let him know if he's still interested :) he mostly uses the toot style so he's mostly on mastodon these days, but always happy to share community!
Really more than anything he's looking for Gundam and Gunpla communities
Yes, there are differences in site culture between Beehaw and Lemmy.world that make the need for moderation higher.
Appreciate the insight. I have heard many variations of what went down/what the reasoning was and it's all sort of unclear to me to be honest. But ultimately I think if instances weren't supposed to defederate, then the option wouldn't exist. Mistake or not it's their call!
Have you asked them?
stay defederated. even now whenever I see some transphobic or hateful comment it's because I accidentally browsed all
edit: apologies everyone!!! it's called "Everything" 𤌠I'm sorry for the confusion I feel dumb now
All only shows content from instances that Beehaw is federated with, FYI.
And, it's only communities someone on beehaw has specifically subscribed to. Communities from federated instances won't show up in all if no one from beehaw has ever subscribed to them.
Hm, if someone subscribes to a federated community, and then unsubscribes, does it keep getting pulled in?
I'm not sure. Once the connection has been made I'd assume it stays but I haven't verified.
Is there a way to see all the communities on your instances c/all?
Edit: Nvm it is at the top of the page.
I'm not sure actually, but that's a good idea.
I found it. You have to press the communities tab at the top of your instance and press all
Thank you.
yeah my bad I looked and it's actually called "Everything"
All on beehaw? Because if so those aren't from the instances we're talking about.
no all on sync. it shows like lemmy.ml and stuff. tbf idrk how this works
edit: I'm so sorry it's actually called everything
That's still "all". Sync just calls it everything.
but that's still beehaw
If you're signed into Beehaw you won't see lemmy.world content anywhere (including in all/everything).
If you sign with an account from somewhere else that "everything" feed will be different.
"Local" is communities only from your signed in instance. "All" will include posts from communities anyone from your instance has subscribed to (and they can only subscribe to communities from federated instances).
what? i never claimed to see lemmy.world I said other instances... it shows @lemmy.ml etc
How does that relate to staying defederated then? Or are you calling for more of it? I don't care either way, just curious.
Do report if you see anything like this, it can help us block communities and talk to other admins to get those communities deleted.
I will !! â¤ď¸
Thank you â¤
I feel torn on the issue. I spend 90% of my Lemmy time on here, but the growth feels much slower than many other communities. I'm mostly ok with that. Content is pretty good, but still not much chatter on many posts. I mainly go to World to post to !superbowl, but even with 10x the users as here I only just started getting decent up votes, and I don't want to mod, so I don't feel like starting it here and trying to build an audience again.
Lemmy is probably still going to be finding its legs for another year or 2, so keeping multiple logins is probably the best way to roll for now.
Count or discount my opinion as a non-Beehaw member as you will but...
I think the instances should do what they set out to do. Federate, defederate in line with the instance's ideals.
I'm not on Beehaw, but I do like seeing its content. But I also like seeing (most) of the content on Lemmy World and sh.itjust.works; and I can get both from the instance I am on.
The amount of moderation actions from those instances were a lot higher than from elsewhere, specifically lemmy.world. With how lemmy.world is now after browsing it for ~5 mins I can confidently say that that would be the case again if we were to refederate
I genuinely recommend against re-federation for Beehaw.
My unique take and experience from lemmy.one is simply the number of users who simply seek to stir the pot.
My blocklist is full of people from lemm.ee and sh.itjust.works and lemmy.world as well as lemmy.ca . When I compare the number of blocks to the number I've blocked from beehaw or even my own instance; a paltry one or two; I'm only ever seeing trolls or idealogues coming from those instances to argue with my posts no matter how well reasoned they may be. For context; if I tell someone they are absolutely wrong and they persist; they automatically meet my block list. I won't suffer people who aren't going to discuss things civilly or rationally.
Blocking someone because they don't agree with you telling them they are "absolutely wrong" isn't civil or rational discourse. Unless you meant something different?
Who says that is the objective of blocking and why should I extend that courtesy to people who are behaving neither civilly nor rationally?
If I go to a bar and someone next to me keeps chiming in on my conversations with homophobic takes, I'm going to pick up my beer and move away from them (block them). What moral imperative do I have to give them the time of day, and how does letting them constantly shoehorn bigotry into my discussions undermine "civil and rational discourse"? If that person keeps doing this to people, is the bar owner required to allow them to stay, or can they show them the door?
Calls for civility, free speech arguments, etc. are all cudgels used by people who want to go where they want and say what they want without scrutiny and I for one have no desire to adhere to some arbitrary moral standard imposed on me by people who want to behave that way. If you want to behave like an ass and pursue me, then I'm cutting you out of my life. No one would blame me at a bar, why should they on my favorite gaming forums?
As one of the Bar owners of Lemmy World, we show anyone with homophobic takes the door.
I'm curious why you feel the need to constantly chime in as much as possible to prove that lemmy.world is totally safe and wonderful. It speaks for itself that it is not. Why badger and harass people further to sell this? You made your point, when is enough enough? We deserve to have discourse without this being shoved down our throats. At one point lemmy.world claimed it wanted to be the biggest instance be damned the consequences, which included opening the floodgates and allowing anyone to join freely, and that invites all kinds of people in that aren't going to act in good faith, trolls, etc...
Now all of the sudden the message is apparently different and there is a huge problem for you all when people in a separate space so much as try to have a discussion about their experiences. That doesn't sit right with me. There are so many users on there who regularly attack beehaw for no reason, unprovoked and nothing is done about that either.
There's still comments up about the defederation in regards to how lemmy.world users feel about beehaw: "Hopefully beehaw dies off quickly." "Yeah, the level of entitlement is insane." "Itâs quite literally free-loading off other instances though. Not just in the content sense, but also the actual monetary cost of the image hosting, etc."
These are just 3 examples. Glossing over all of these issues and trying to paint everything in a good light is just totally dishonest and absurd.
Glad to hear it. I think too many mods/admins fall into the trappings of free speech arguments and "letting healthy dialogue happen" because it's an ideal that we've all sort of internalized, often to our own detriment because we don't want to appear "too biased" or like "power tripping jannies." The reality is it's a pretty simple equation: if someone is sufficiently disruptive that's plenty of reason to remove them.
Indeed, the paradox of tolerance is real https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
At least for me and by the sounds of it, you.
Very real and very much something people need to learn to apply!
The block button doesn't have a set of rules and there is no morally right or wrong way to use it. No one owes people explanations for their use of it. This new idea that you should only use it for specific reasons is not only absurd, but it is unsafe for a large swath of people and it is a toxic idea to keep spreading that as a message. It hurts no one to use the block button and keeps many people safe.
I agree with all of this, I was just pointing out that common understanding (read: my own) of civil and rational discourse doesn't usually include immediately blocking people who don't agree to you telling them they are wrong in absolute terms.
I could be wrong however, happens a lot.
Edit: that is not to day I don't personally block people I think are being arseholes, i 100% do, I just don't claim to be doing so in the defence of civil or rational discourse.
I guess it depends on who you are and what is being said, there's a lot of people I might block ahead of time just to spare myself the issues down the road or the frustration. I try to not reply to them though because they aren't going to change their mind and I'm going to be left feeling crummy after it all. Sometimes talking to certain people even makes them more angry and then they go out and double down and go after other people so I don't want to cause that either if I can help it.
Each to their own, I too have pre-blocked on occasion.
I probably wouldn't hold myself responsible for angry internet people, if I'm engaging in good faith and they get angry that's not on me, trolls gonna troll, but again each to their own.
Telling someone that they are "Absolutely wrong" is within my right and is also a very polite way to indicate to someone to shut up and listen without saying it; and that attempting to talk with me further on the topic will not be civil or fruitful.
Blocking people who persist is a simple mechanism to weed out anyone who refuse to listen to logic or feelings on a matter when they don't align with their own.
Would you rather I be blunt and simply tell idiots to "Shut the fuck up"? Because that's definitely not civility. Don't try to argue semantics here; it's ugly and unnecessary.
Absolutely within your rights, depending on the instance you are on and if the rules are enforced i suppose. Same as anything anybody else says. One of the main draws of the fediverse, no ?
I doubt "Absolutely wrong" would be read as "shut up and listen" in most contexts but i could be in the minority here.
Agreed , i do it too, frequently.
i don't have an opinion on how blunt you should be with people, your call.
Arguing semantics is ugly when done in bad faith ,but i'm not trolling or baiting you , i just happen to think word choice is important in some situations. (for a given value of important, i mean it's not life or death here or anything)
In this case i (personally) read it as "I block people who don't agree with my very well reasoned opinion, even after i graciously explained it to them, they just won't listen to me and keep replying".
and most of that comes from the use of the term "Absolutely wrong" which is an absolute, by definition and leaves no room for other opinions or options.
As you said, you can use whatever words you like, at least one person thinks your use of absolutes in statements detracts from your otherwise cogent arguments, do with that what you will.
Honestly, I think it's best that we stay the way we are here and not re-federate.
My experience after leaving all the toxicity of Reddit behind was that it was really a blessing to find a community where moderation actually mattered and made a difference in the culture of site. I did a lot of lurking on Lemmy even before leaving Reddit, enough to know it was not a place for me. I tried Kbin when I did finally leave Reddit, but did not like the experience there much, so eventually landed here.
While I can appreciate people's concerns about the defederation, and in particular some of the stresses for the admins which are certainly really challenging, I think it would all be far more negative if at this stage the decision were to be reversed. Not every community needs to be "the biggest, baddest, baddy in the room" so to speak. I just get the impression the vision for Lemmy is something along those lines. No one seems to care about that here (that I can tell), they just care about having civil and open discussions which, more than anything else, feel safe. It's why I stay and am glad to support it. If that changed, I would most likely move on and not return.
I really think this needs to be fixed by a system that allows for the user to decide on their own content federation.
I think communities should be able to block users and communities from seeing and interacting with their content, but the problem is that currently defederation means that the home instance can block what you see of other instances.
This can be fixed either by still allowing data to be sent out to severs but not in from them mostly. Or it can be fixed by making unified user accounts that can persist on multiple servers and therefore go around defederation.
Why do this? Because I guarantee there are users here like myself who wouldnât mind viewing content on other servers and so instead weâd be forced to make and use another account. The less accounts per person, the better imo. Because creating many account discourages community and harms vetting processes.
i hear you, and that's why i made this post. After reading through the replies though, I think it makes more sense for beehaw to stay defederated. The way it blocks us from using those communities is a little annoying, but i think it's better if you think of it like each lemmy server is it's own social media site that happens to have some ways of communicating with other sites, rather than thinking of all lemmy servers together as one site.
That's really the spirit of the thing - you don't get mad at Facebook because they don't let you view and comment on reddit posts from facebook. Currently, the connection between Beehaw and Lemmy.World is mostly the same.
I value the principled approach and slower pace, the low tolerance for stirring. Moderation has such a huge effect on feel and the big ones never did enough to try to build healthy communities. Beehaw has mostly taken the sting out and I'd hate to see that lost.
I feel like that might be a topic where it's important for the community to voice their opinion.
Here are my two cents as an outsider looking in. I spend ~15-30 mins a day on Lemmy (usually while doing other things), so I see a decent amount of content but I am not at the leading edge of posts. When I look at posts, I rarely, if ever see spam. For the most part there is civil conversations and those that attempt to derail them are downvoted and, in some cases, banned.
Does this mean that moderation isn't a problem? No, I am but one user. However, it does indicate it is not a chronic issue. Personally I would like to see you guys refederate, as that could only increase the quality of discussions throughout the fediverse.
See I have the exact opposite experience outside of beehaw and a few key communities I browse on Kbin.
This is contradictory. You are admitting your experience is anecdotal yet also saying it clearly shows there isn't a problem.
I spend most of the time on Kbin, sometimes lurking and sometimes commenting on different posts.
I can't talk about sh.itjust.works because I rarely see content from that instance. Sometimes a meme, or sometimes a techie news post. But very rarely, as I said. If you stay federated or defederated with sh.itjust.works, I don't really care, because I don't really know that place or the content it's published there.
However, I strongly prefer to stay defederated from lemmy.world. I really can't understand why an instance with the .world domain is so US-centric. I don't give a shit about Iowa, Idaho, Florida, Montana, Texas, California or whatever posts from related communites I see while browsing all on Kbin. Besides, being myself anti-nazi, anti-fascist and anti-tankie, I support when other instances defederate from far-right and far-left instances, but I don't understand why they defederate instantly from certain instances and take some time to defederate from other certain instances. It's sad, but lemmy.world is the most similar thing to reddit right now, and it seems that they want to monopolize everything, because there are communities on other instances, as well as on Kbin, that have few activity, if any, in favour of .world ones.
And then there is a cryptic reply to a comment I made on another post.
Most of the admins are Europeans and the server is also hosted in Europe (currently).
We defederated with both the extreme left and right instances. Which instance are you talking about?
Everyone is free to start a community on our instance as long as they have active moderators and follow the rules
Yes, and that's really confusing. I mean, I respect the fact about posting US news where they belong and news from other countries where they belong too (I don't like it, but I respect it). But while I browse all on Kbin, 90% of the content is about US, and I'm tired of blocking US communities every time they appear on my feed.
Back in the day, some weeks or last month, or whenever it happened, I read some public disagreements about why lemmy.world didn't defederate exploding-heads when they defederated lemmygrad. Why so much time with the heads and no time with the grads.
Obviously. But again, while browsing all on Kbin, the only thing I see is content from lemmy.world, while content from similar communities on other instances, although being there, it's either invisible or at the very bottom. To the point I had to block that instance, so my feed will be enriched by other instances.
We are not defederated from lemmygrad. The only 'big' instances that are defederated are exploding-heads and hexbear. And as I pointed out here it did NOT take us long to defederate with them.
đ đ đ đ đ
We had our reasons to preemptively defederate and that has proven to be the correct action - just check what giving them a chance did for https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/
Yes, days is a long time now? We were still (one of) the first to defederate with them.
The instance you are on (lemmy.one) never was defederated with rammy.site. When rammy.site was overtaken by Exploding Heads members we tried to contact the site admin first. When he didn't reply we defederated. That took about a day.
Yes. But I know you're not here to argue in good faith. Your post history and this statement screams "Hexbear user on his alt".
What happened with blahaj.zone's Lemmy instance? I'm on their Mastodon instance, not Lemmy, so I was unaware of anything happening with it.
Someone from there posted this summary: https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/post/2017079.
Sorry not sure how to reformat.
Honestly, I think it has a lot to do with a lot of the other popular lemmy instances being specifically oriented around a specific non-US country, so that those of us who are in the US felt deterred from joining the ones that explicitly included ".de" or ".ca" or ".ch" in their domain, with German/Canadian/Swiss stuff in the sidebar.
That's why I didn't joint them either. I mean, I could join lemmy.ca because, even being located and focused in Canada, English is used. But feddit.de or feddit.ch, well, I can't talk neither German nor Czech, so you're also right about that.
Given how unstable Lemmy's performance is, adding even more incoming activity is likely to cause more crashes and problems. And it isn't as if there are aren't 1200 other Lemmy instances out there who are showing content from Lemmy.world
I remember when Beehaw's signup code in Lemmy was so broken that there was a huge backlog.
That's helped with the crashes in recent weeks, less data, less crashing. Lemmy.world has over 9000 communities, moderating all those entrances is huge, and the SQL performance problems in Lemmy are aggravated by all that additional data.
Can someone explain the defederation thing to me? I thought that was "cutting the cord" yet I see people from lemmy.world commenting here.
People from Beehaw canot see them though I will say that is very strange. It shouldn't be happening at all as far as I know.
Yes it is necessary.
World just announced they're disabling open sign-ups for the time being. If they determine a solution or keep application-only sign up does that change the answer?
https://lemmy.world/post/3995057
So, is it possible to mute words like, idk, defederate So i dont have every second post filled with the same shit
lol i mean you could unsubscribe from or block the Beehaw Support community? Most of the discussions about this have been happening here. Alternatively, I believe some mobile apps let you block by keyword. I use Sync on Android, and that has keyword title blocking.