The power a government has over you, and the power your employer has over you, are totally different.
The government is legally authorized to separate you from your possessions, your freedom, and even your life in extremis. Your boss can't do any of that and if they try the government should stop them.
Some people believe democracy is what prevents the government from punishing you capriciously, or allowing corporations to just do whatever they want to you. So they are willing to die to defend it.
I would say traditional liberal ideals are closer to what they'd want to defend than democracy itself, and I don't 100% agree in either case, but I can see the point of view.
The government is legally authorized to separate you from your possessions, your freedom, and even your life in extremis. Your boss can’t do any of that and if they try the government should stop them.
there was just a work email put out where I work about how employees shouldn't be going to the bathroom super often and if they are in the bathroom they should only be doing bathroom things.
I can't report them for that but it is fucking extreme and dehumanizing. To be policed in the bathroom. Because company time is more important than bodily functions. Or whatever other reason someone might be in the bathroom.
I get this sucks but you can quit your job and walk away from your employer, theoretically.
If the government decides to separate you from your possessions, your freedom, or your life, you can't walk away from it and find a new government.
Your boss and your government are just totally different.
I get this sucks but you can quit your job and walk away from your employer, theoretically.
Yeah and be homeless.
And I don't participate in government shit unless I have to like taxes cause they'll come for me if I don't pay for them kind of thing.
I mean that's the difference right there, right? If you quit your job, you're homeless. If you don't pay taxes, you're arrested.
Homelessness is almost always illegal either directly or indirectly through loitering laws, hostile architecture, bans against begging etc.. Also, they almost always have zero protection from criminal behaviour directed at them (from either other citizens or the police themselves). Thinking there is legal room for being homeless is a pretty ignorant take no matter where you are from.
As a person with family living under an actual dictatorship, I’d like to point out some differences.
You can leave a job. You’re generally not killed for poor performance at a job.
I’ll stop there. I think that’s enough to shatter this very poor comparison.
You can leave a job
This is true for most people, but not all. Of course not being able to do so would constitute a form of slavery, but that is just the reality for a lot of people and I think if we are honest about the world we should admit that. Do agree softly on not downplaying political dictatorships though.
Unless you're a literal slave (which is a different problem) you're free to leave those jobs, just you might have to move (leaving family and friends) or you might never make as much money/your lifestyle suffers. That's vastly different from "if you leave your job we may literally kill you or throw you in a prison cell where you won't see daylight for days, weeks, months, or years."
Don't get me wrong, those people trapped in their jobs by circumstance are not in envious situations (and in many contexts their issues should be taken seriously), but they're still way better off than many in true dictatorships.
You can argue that both don't provide "real choices" but one really doesn't provide choices.
See my other comment with regards to the issue of "literal slave".
I think we should also take into account that the problem of unfree labour conditions does not exist within a vacuum. There is after all, even in free democratic countries, the threat of violence (from the state) that in general upholds the systems of oppression from businesses and others. Most people born, if not fortunate with inheritance, have initially no property on which they can sustain themselves. If they want to have some they have the option to steal or work, the former most won't do due to the threat of violence (read ultimately usage of physical force, not to be confused with police violence) from the state.
When also the businesses have tools to shape and influence politics, one may to some degree extend their form of oppression to not only include direct economical exploitation of workers, but also as the designers of the oppressive conditions that allows them and the rest of us to be in the conditions that allows for this to happen in the first place.
That is not to say that I want us to confuse direct dictatorships with capitalism, but that if we want to have a truly free and democratic society we need to look at all aspects of society and not pretend that the huge part of all our lives that comprises of work need to be under democratic control. Also, the imperialistic tendencies of capitalism on the global stage is also a huge reason for political instability and empowers dictatorships around the world.
Oh people can absolutely leave jobs. It’s eating they can’t stop doing. I mean they can stop that too, I guess.
If we’re going to invoke literal slavery then I don’t think self immolation is off the table to mention either.
With regards to the literal definition of slavery I would argue it is not only restricted to chattel slavery, since that would deny most cases of forced and unfree labour. That someone can control a person, effectively owning them, without a mandate from any government or law is precisely the point. It shows the need for a more democratic approach to work and makes evident a discrepancy within self proclaimed free and democratic societies. That is what I think is the point being made by OP, not to belittle those who live under oppressive dictatorships (which is horrible and often an order of magnitude worse), but to remind those that don't that for big parts of their lives they are not truly free themselves either.
I understand what’s being said, I just don’t find it valid or useful. People’s choices being limited is not to be equated with slavery. Someone having influence over someone is not to be equated with slavery. Living in a dictatorship is not to be equated with slavery. Slavery is slavery and working at a job is neither slavery nor living in a dictatorship.
Further, democracy is not some absolute freedom void of all controlling influence from others. Choices are limited under democracy too. I think the word you’re looking for is anarchy.
It is more than fair to disagree, after all there is somewhat an hyperbole hidden behind wordings like "a form of slavery". However, I do think the sentiment is an important one: that freedom and democracy are usually exempt from our work lives, even if we are living in democratic countries, and that it does not need to be as such.
I have more chance of rising to a position of influence at my job than in our democracy.
I can leave or join these “dictatorships” easily.
My dictator takes my questions in public weekly and make a good faith effort to answer them. My democratic leader spams me texts asking for money.
My dictatorship works very hard to make sure that everyone is treated with respect regardless of their gender, race, sexual orientation, etc. and they fire people for sexual harassment. My “democracy” is full of gerrymandering and many other forms of institutional racism. Sexual predators walk the halls of power.
My dictatorship reviews everyone’s pay annually to ensure that we do t have pay inequities along those lines. They also lift any wages that are below living wage. My dictatorship pays my healthcare where my “democracy” steadfastly refuses to take care of fundamental basics.
Anyway…. The idea that a corporation is nothing but nonstop rain down of executive decisions is also wrong. Small teams and groups are absolutely leaders as well. They know their area best and propose things to do in that area. They are accountable to the executives, who need to balance all needs and keep people from building little empires off in the corner. But the executives never tell us what to do in our area. We tell them what we’re going to do and what more they should fund. We don’t have dictator power, but the point is neither so they.
So really, just no. I know this “work is a dictatorship” meme is appealing to a teenager working in retail but it’s a childish metaphor. I do happen to have an extraordinarily good job and I have risen to a mid level of authority there so I don’t feel like a powerless drone. That’s not true for everyone. But neither is the teenage angst.
You could also say families are dictatorships since parents make the important decisions and can’t be overridden by kids. But you’d be stupid to look at it that way and ignore the nonstop care and consideration and support that the parents shower on their kids, while they blunder about selfishly and oblivious.
Dictatorship! To arms! Just… laughable!
I am sorry, but your take seems to be highly influenced by your own privileges and willful ignorance. You talk about your job opportunities and benefits within your organization, ignoring that I wrote
This is true for most people, but not all.
meaning you are obviously in the fortunate group, and your anecdotal stories are consequently irrelevant to the points being made about the less fortunate one.
The idea that only edgy teenagers who hate hard and honest work can get behind this sentiment is plain reductionist and false. Furthermore, if I understand you correctly from
My “democracy” is full of gerrymandering and many other forms of institutional racism. Sexual predators walk the halls of power.
I would guess you are an American, and if so I hope you are aware that your institutions are deeply flawed and in a lot of cases really undemocratic, which makes the particular comparisons you make to your job even less apt.
You also get a little into the issue of the often strong hierarchical structures of family and other form of tribes, which is actually of some relevance in the question of freedom, but totally besides the point with respect to democracy in the workplace. I am not telling you that your job sucks, I am just stating that there are jobs that suck and that they are mostly filled with underprivileged people, many of whom are there precisely due to lack of options. That is really one of the main issues that socialism tries to answer: equal opportunity for all. Because, although you may not like it, your success and others lack of it is not purely meritocratic and just.
There are socioeconomic factors that far exceed the impact of skills and socialism, workplace democracy and the likes is more just, more moral and gives greater opportunity for all than a capitalist society such as the US. Thinking otherwise is laughable and you being a reactionary content with status quo is unsurprising given your self-proclaimed privilege.
Well I’m very sorry for not meeting your expectation that exceptional cases should sit quietly instead of making themselves heard.
You think working for a corporation is the same as living under a dictatorship?
Yeah, this thought is someone trying to compare apples to oranges.
Then there’s the throw away comment of how you barely know anyone there, that’s a personal thing. I work for a small company now but I used to work for a hospital with over 2,000 employees, I didn’t know most of them but I knew the 100 or so people I interacted with pretty well and did things outside of work with many of them on more than one occasion.
As I walk through the front door of my air-conditioned office building and say hello to the receptionist I can't help but feel this is just what it was like living under Marcos or Pinochet.
/s
Plenty of people live comfortable lives under dictatorship, you can compare that office worker to a citizen in Qatar and they'd probably live similar lives materially.
You could also compare the sweat shop worker for the company that office workers company contracts their manufacturing out to, to the migrant pseudo-slave workers in Qatar.
the migrant pseudo-slave slave workers in Qatar.
Think you had a typo there^
To the level that the corporation has control over your life, yeah. What do you think banana republics are? The more the company can control your life, the more its undemocratic nature becomes apparent. Working for a small company in a competitive market might not look like a company town, but it has the same fundamental structure as one. The main difference is that the small company has to offer a good deal to their employees compared to competitors. If the company is the only hirer in town, then they'll suddenly not have as much motivation to treat you well. If they control the housing, means of travel, and cops as well, you're basically enslaved.
Exactly. It's soul-crushing, but generally not body-crushing.
The CEO can take away your livelihood at a whim, destroying your future career, and everyone has to tug the forelock.
Dictatorships are not bad in and of themselves. A benign dictatorship could be the most effective form of governing, there's just no mechanism to stop them when they stop being benign.
And on the flip side a CEO can improve and expand many people’s careers and therefore wealth.
A dictatorship like Mao Zedong, Mussolini, Hitler, etc can flow all the wealth and power to themselves, oppressing the people under them.
The point it: You can’t talk about best case scenario of one and not the other. Usually, as it’s human nature, both are going to sequester wealth and power for themselves over the people under them, but a bad dictatorship is leagues worse than a bad company/CEO.
Yeah, there's good CEOs and bad ones. But the hierarchical power structure is the same.
CEOs are like kings of their empire.
HR is like the court jester
Not sure I'd die for democracy.. it's a popularity contest where 80 year old millionaires compete to see who looks best in a suit.
Freedom, sure. But that's not the same thing.
You're describing a representational democracy. What do you think about direct democracy?
That's elections, democracy is a system of government by consent
But I agree with the current state of US and UK politics, 2 party systems are only better because a 1 party system is even worse
I have a problem with the willingly in this thought.
The issue is that people are pretty unwilling to be homeless or starve if there's an alternative (no matter how terrible).
Working is the worst way to prevent yourself from starvation and homelessness except for all of the others.
But we don't need to accept a dictatorship to work. We should be working towards democratizing the workplace, forming unions, and creating worker owned businesses.
Yes, agreed 100%. Should. Til then though, still gotta eat and also not be homeless.
Yep. We have to deal with it for now, but we shouldn't accept it as the way I has to be. People should be going to their work and speaking with their coworkers about unions and other options. We're all in this together against the owners. They try to turn us against each other.
The issue is that people are pretty unwilling to be homeless or starve if there’s an alternative (no matter how terrible).
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but I've been homeless before and I don't think it's an "issue" that I don't want to go back to that.
It's not an issue, that's just an effect of the sarcastic phrasing. There's kind of an embedded notion within the original thought that people actually do this by choice. I think most work in dictatorial companies because there's really no other choice except destitution.
Thanks, that's what I figured since my experience has been have a job or be homeless and it really is my ass onto the street as soon as there is only small unemployment checks.
Working is better than being homeless for most people. Because you can, doesnt mean everyone can.
I agree but that doesn't really clear up what I was trying to understand?
Lots of people are not willing to die for democracy, some even fight against it out of ignorance or powerlust.
Workplaces are structured without democracy by default, and adding democracy can be helpful to workplace problems.
It's a job, not a country you're living in.
And? I shouldn't get a say? Without a say workers deal with being underpaid, and unsafe conditions. Sometimes the federal government helps fix this. But better yet form a strike, use the collective action to get a fairer workplace.
You do get a say in safety, there are very harsh laws if companies get reported not following safety measures. I think everyone is asking for more pay lol, but that has nothing to do with democracy. You only should have a say for so much, there are many things that only those with certain education should have a say. Because again, it's not a country.
there are many things that only those with certain education should have a say.
The rich are not smarter than us!
asking for more pay lol, but that has nothing to do with democracy
Getting more pay often requires democratic actions. Striking, unionizing. Unions democratize a workplace by providing leverage behind workers concerns.
there are very harsh laws if companies get reported not following safety measures.
You must not be American. From an American perspective, employers are basically lawless.
The eventual theoretical climax being siezing the means of production. Then there is no longer an owner or board of shareholders with structural heirarchical control over what is made, who makes it, and how much they are paid.
You must not be American. From an American perspective, employers are basically lawless.
I can tell that you have never dealt with an OSHA inspection. Like all things government, most of the rules make sense, some of them don't, and some things should be covered but aren't. It still breaks my brain that propane gas tank forklifts used indoors are allowed but an audible pneumatic hose leak supposedly isn't.
I have seen Cleatus scream about how they can't run their line because they hear a hose leak and use the forklift to drive to the break room. Sigh.
Education does not mean rich. There's still a workplace hierarchy in socialism, and even communism. Of course America is brought up for no reason lol. You don't understand what you're talking about, and that's not even true.
Sorry.
Directorship*
Functionally, they are the same.
Search for a new job since your current one is treating you terribly
What job (aka enslavement apparently)do you have irl
Factory worker.
Definitely not a rollform operator if that is the case. Machine builder?
So how would a factory line work without leadership lol
Voting for a leader democratically does not mean that there is no leader.
That makes zero sense in a workplace context
Really? What's wrong with someone having a say in who their boss is?
You are incorrect. I absolutely run my businesses as a dictatorship because I’m the owner. We don’t “vote” on what to do, if you don’t like my ideas you are FIRED. Same goes for my tenants, if you don’t like my rules then get out of my property!!
I dictatorship would mean they'd die if they didn't do what you liked lol. It's in a government context, not a contractual obligation. A tennet can find another place to live, and a worker can find another company.
In what world does a dictatorship require everyone else to die if they don't agree? They have control over the institution, but they don't have total control over every individual.
You do not know what you are talking about. If you want to run your business as a democracy fine but you won’t be successful. I will continue running mine with an iron fist as a dictatorship.
I will continue running mine with an iron fist as a dictatorship
Why do you talk like you're in a kung fu movie?
It's literally the definition, you are just objectively wrong
You are wrong, and stop telling me how to run my business
god forbid someone steal a packet of soy sauce.
Stealing anything from a place of business is unforgivable
I just imagine you as like a stiff Japanese business man and you're constantly holding up a katana, waiting to cut someone's head off for a petty crime.
Not far from the truth, but I am an all American businessman and as such prefer firearms to blades.
way to suck all the cool out of it by being American.
The overlap of people willing to let themselves be beat down and exploited at work, and the people that would actually fight and die for democracy is slim to none.
Resource extraction companies are notoriously bad employers. I'd bet there's more of an overlap in those sort of jobs.
It's... not weird at all. Democracy is a form of governance that permeates all our lives and controls the state that has a monopoly of violence that can be used against us and take away our rights. It's not something we can opt-out of so it's important that everyone has a say in it.
Small groups forming to do things like commerce or non-profits or whatever are completely voluntary and can't take our rights away. The fact is, these authoritarian-like structures are efficient and effective. Even employee-owned corporations tend to organize this way by electing the officers.
Would love to see more companies experiment with democratic organizations though.
Arguably technology has changed this paradigm a lot. More people now just means more thinkers, who work best not under stress
No dumb bastard ever won a war by going out and dying for his country. He won it by making some other dumb bastard die for his country.
-George Patton
We have a choice not to work?
Choosing death by starvation is not a choice. Work or die, slave.
Sartre would disagree, but then Sartre was a professional philosopher.
You think a company should pay you even if you decide not to work? As much as I wish the universe rained down food, housing, and smart phone but the reality is that it cares not of you get a meal at the end of the day.
I have no idea what point you are trying to make.
There are better systems that require you not to die when you dont work.
Really? Like other people take out your garbage and bringing you your food and build your house.
The universe cares less if you starve but we do live in a time when we have to do very little work to survive quite well.
Companies are already paying people who decide to not work - their owners.
Ya ok.
sure, just sign up to like 10 credit cards, max them out getting good reliable camping equipment, and take a large loan out for one of those survival vans and flea the country
sure, just sign up to like 10 credit cards, max them out getting good reliable camping equipment, and take a large loan out for one of those survival vans and flea the country
This must be the same thought process of the people I see living in camping vans and tents down the street from me.
On which border is it common to cross from a democracy to a dictatorship for work?
I think the idea is that most workplaces are dictatorships
Careful you might start thinking about democratizing the workplace. If you start doing that you might wind up one of us filthy syndicalists
Don't threaten me with a good time!
I worked for a cooperative once. It had its upsides. But it eventually lost steam because of the diffusion of responsibility. At its peak it had a strong core council of 5-7 official members looking after it and it flourished. But it was somewhat of a labor of love and over time they had kids, moved away, etc and eventually there just weren’t enough committed core people to keep it going.
A small business generally has one person who is ready to do absolutely whatever it takes to make it a success. This can be game changing. All their skin is in the game. If they have to skip a paycheck they do. If they have to work all night they do.
You know, a dictator, as you call them -_-
Frankly, I'm a coward. There's very little I'd be willing to die for and democracy certainly isn't one of those things.
I'm sure plenty of Ukrainians thought the same pre invasion. Seen a fair few IT technicians flying fpv drones on the frontline
Plus, just working in a munitions factory makes you a target, and Russia has been indiscriminate in their targeting the civilian population
I doubt I would suddenly get brave if the U.S. was invaded. I've never even picked up a gun.
I served in the military and qualified as an expert marksman having never handled a firearm prior, and I wouldn’t honestly pick up a gun to kill anyone either. I’m also a coward. I found a role that would ensure I was as safe as possible at all times, cuz I’m a pacifist, but wanted college paid for. I’d have had to explicitly request to be put in danger, which I did not do.
The good news is you don’t have to be willing to shoot/kill anyone to offer tangible support if shit hits the fan :)
(I actively discourage people from joining the military now, though.. I grew up and learned what was really going on, and I absolutely don’t support it)
I feel like most ukrainians aren't fighting for democracy. They're kleptocracy is marginally better than the one in Russia, but not worth dying over. Their fighting either for nationalism and hatred of Russian imperialism that's oppressed them for centuries, or personal honor and fear of being called a coward by their wider social group.
In general nationalism and personal honor are the main reasons people will voluntarily sign up, outside of personal gain and mercenaries. In the west that nationalism gets tied up with ideas of democracy, but if a dictatorship took over the u.s. I doubt there'd be much of a difference in volunteers for the next war.
survey research from the MOBILISE Project reveals a staggering 35 percentage-point rise in Ukrainians’ support for democracy over just three years. Ukrainians moved toward greater support for democracy between 2019 and 2022 precisely because ordinary citizens were able to observe democracy in action and working even in the face of major compounding crises
You can go to work for yourself, you can’t fork your own country.
The dominant cultural ideology blinds us to the obvious contradictions.
I don't have a choice. If I wanna do the kind of work I enjoy and pays enough to feed my family, I have to submit to corporate dictatorship.
There is a difference even between an autocracy and a dictatorship. There's a difference between specialization and dictatorship.
The things you don't fully grasp should get questions; not the host outrageous label you can think of at the time.
In a workplace you're trading your labour, skills, and time for money. Think of it more like a convenience store, do you get to vote for the guy behind the counter, do you get to vote for the prices of the products? How would a convenience store be able to function if the customers could vote on these things?
Democracy works with government because most voters are also taxpayers. There's a an incentive not to vote for things that aren't affordable because the people voting have to pay for it.
Plenty of businesses function with workers in control.
Also, the basic understanding (though not totally accurate) is that customers do vote on prices by choosing what, where, and when to purchase. The issue is they don't organize to vote on it, and businesses do shady deals to rig the vote.
In a workplace you’re trading your labour, skills, and time for money. Think of it more like a convenience store, do you get to vote for the guy behind the counter, do you get to vote for the prices of the products? How would a convenience store be able to function if the customers could vote on these things?
Isn't that supply and demand? If something doesn't sell enough, it stops being on the shelf. You vote with your purchases.
Some places even give out surveys where you would rate the person who helped you. Some places take those surveys seriously and if you get bad ratings, they fire you.
Which is why I only give five star rating for my rideshare driver.
yeah I use to work at a place that had "CSAT" I don't remember what it stands for but a lot of companies use it and some use it more than others.
Basically it's the same but usually those surveys provide open ended comments where the customers can rip you a new one if they feel like they didn't get what they wanted. You could be telling a customer no based on policy, and then a manage will see the bad review and use that to give you a talking to about work improvement.
It's so incredibly backwards.
Sucks dude
Every single civilization with every single type of governance in human history requires most people to work. That will continue to be the case for a long time into the future.
Is the current system perfect? No. However it does allow for a greater degree of latitude than basically everything that came before it. It also has safeguards to ensure there's some sort of safety net if you fall on hard times.
You also mentioned democracy. Assuming you live in America, you can vote in a way that introduces reform to the system.
Starting a violent revolution is a last resort sort of thing.
cognitive dissonance or something
In the US? I only work full time because of the constant threat of death if I don't.
If you think about it, Thomas Hobbes was right but on a smaller scale. Society only works when people submit themselves to their bosses.
Did he say that?
Well, he argued that we should all submit ourselves to an absolute sovereign, by which he meant a king or queen. Unfortunately he kind of lost out that argument since most places have rejected absolute monarchy, but luckily, people can still submit themselves to the new ruling class of business and property owners 😊
People are not willing to die for democracy.
People are willing to die doe their cunt tree.
Yes that actually the key difference. We willingly enter those communist dictatorships and we are not prisoners there but can leave.
That is fundamentally different than a place like a communist dictatorship country, which builds walls to turn itself into a prison.
Being willing to enter and able to leave a dictatorship makes it a whole different thing than a dictatorship you are born into, and cannot leave.
Consent is everything. Like, a person can tie you up, beat you with a whip, pour hot wax on your skin to burn you, and put clothes pins on your nipples, and it’s okay as long as there’s consent. That is, objectively, a bad way to treat someone. But consent changes everything.
And it goes the other way too. Helping a person without their consent is wrong. This is the problem with a lot of the social movements these days: not seeking consent from those they seek to help.
Democracy, the God that failed.
In my country i can choosr who runs it...
I cant, at my job
But i can easily choose to quit and find a different job, or start my own company. I dont have those options, when it comes to my country.
Not everyone can just quit and do a different job or become a freelancer, and some people can just packup their stuff and move to a different country without issues.
So, I don't understand your point.
OP I'm familiar with your sentiment. This rhetoric is too ideological for most, I'd dial it back and try again. Most are allergic to leftist words and ideas. Union recruiters say to never even use the "U" word, and even saying burgeosie will have libs mocking you.
Some might say it is not radical enough. OP made an okay point and doesn't need to placate reactionaries.
The power a government has over you, and the power your employer has over you, are totally different.
The government is legally authorized to separate you from your possessions, your freedom, and even your life in extremis. Your boss can't do any of that and if they try the government should stop them.
Some people believe democracy is what prevents the government from punishing you capriciously, or allowing corporations to just do whatever they want to you. So they are willing to die to defend it.
I would say traditional liberal ideals are closer to what they'd want to defend than democracy itself, and I don't 100% agree in either case, but I can see the point of view.
there was just a work email put out where I work about how employees shouldn't be going to the bathroom super often and if they are in the bathroom they should only be doing bathroom things.
I can't report them for that but it is fucking extreme and dehumanizing. To be policed in the bathroom. Because company time is more important than bodily functions. Or whatever other reason someone might be in the bathroom.
I get this sucks but you can quit your job and walk away from your employer, theoretically.
If the government decides to separate you from your possessions, your freedom, or your life, you can't walk away from it and find a new government.
Your boss and your government are just totally different.
Yeah and be homeless.
And I don't participate in government shit unless I have to like taxes cause they'll come for me if I don't pay for them kind of thing.
I mean that's the difference right there, right? If you quit your job, you're homeless. If you don't pay taxes, you're arrested.
Homelessness is almost always illegal either directly or indirectly through loitering laws, hostile architecture, bans against begging etc.. Also, they almost always have zero protection from criminal behaviour directed at them (from either other citizens or the police themselves). Thinking there is legal room for being homeless is a pretty ignorant take no matter where you are from.
what? Depends on the numbers I think.
As a person with family living under an actual dictatorship, I’d like to point out some differences.
You can leave a job. You’re generally not killed for poor performance at a job.
I’ll stop there. I think that’s enough to shatter this very poor comparison.
This is true for most people, but not all. Of course not being able to do so would constitute a form of slavery, but that is just the reality for a lot of people and I think if we are honest about the world we should admit that. Do agree softly on not downplaying political dictatorships though.
Unless you're a literal slave (which is a different problem) you're free to leave those jobs, just you might have to move (leaving family and friends) or you might never make as much money/your lifestyle suffers. That's vastly different from "if you leave your job we may literally kill you or throw you in a prison cell where you won't see daylight for days, weeks, months, or years."
Don't get me wrong, those people trapped in their jobs by circumstance are not in envious situations (and in many contexts their issues should be taken seriously), but they're still way better off than many in true dictatorships.
You can argue that both don't provide "real choices" but one really doesn't provide choices.
See my other comment with regards to the issue of "literal slave".
I think we should also take into account that the problem of unfree labour conditions does not exist within a vacuum. There is after all, even in free democratic countries, the threat of violence (from the state) that in general upholds the systems of oppression from businesses and others. Most people born, if not fortunate with inheritance, have initially no property on which they can sustain themselves. If they want to have some they have the option to steal or work, the former most won't do due to the threat of violence (read ultimately usage of physical force, not to be confused with police violence) from the state.
When also the businesses have tools to shape and influence politics, one may to some degree extend their form of oppression to not only include direct economical exploitation of workers, but also as the designers of the oppressive conditions that allows them and the rest of us to be in the conditions that allows for this to happen in the first place.
That is not to say that I want us to confuse direct dictatorships with capitalism, but that if we want to have a truly free and democratic society we need to look at all aspects of society and not pretend that the huge part of all our lives that comprises of work need to be under democratic control. Also, the imperialistic tendencies of capitalism on the global stage is also a huge reason for political instability and empowers dictatorships around the world.
Oh people can absolutely leave jobs. It’s eating they can’t stop doing. I mean they can stop that too, I guess.
If we’re going to invoke literal slavery then I don’t think self immolation is off the table to mention either.
With regards to the literal definition of slavery I would argue it is not only restricted to chattel slavery, since that would deny most cases of forced and unfree labour. That someone can control a person, effectively owning them, without a mandate from any government or law is precisely the point. It shows the need for a more democratic approach to work and makes evident a discrepancy within self proclaimed free and democratic societies. That is what I think is the point being made by OP, not to belittle those who live under oppressive dictatorships (which is horrible and often an order of magnitude worse), but to remind those that don't that for big parts of their lives they are not truly free themselves either.
I understand what’s being said, I just don’t find it valid or useful. People’s choices being limited is not to be equated with slavery. Someone having influence over someone is not to be equated with slavery. Living in a dictatorship is not to be equated with slavery. Slavery is slavery and working at a job is neither slavery nor living in a dictatorship.
Further, democracy is not some absolute freedom void of all controlling influence from others. Choices are limited under democracy too. I think the word you’re looking for is anarchy.
It is more than fair to disagree, after all there is somewhat an hyperbole hidden behind wordings like "a form of slavery". However, I do think the sentiment is an important one: that freedom and democracy are usually exempt from our work lives, even if we are living in democratic countries, and that it does not need to be as such.
I have more chance of rising to a position of influence at my job than in our democracy.
I can leave or join these “dictatorships” easily.
My dictator takes my questions in public weekly and make a good faith effort to answer them. My democratic leader spams me texts asking for money.
My dictatorship works very hard to make sure that everyone is treated with respect regardless of their gender, race, sexual orientation, etc. and they fire people for sexual harassment. My “democracy” is full of gerrymandering and many other forms of institutional racism. Sexual predators walk the halls of power.
My dictatorship reviews everyone’s pay annually to ensure that we do t have pay inequities along those lines. They also lift any wages that are below living wage. My dictatorship pays my healthcare where my “democracy” steadfastly refuses to take care of fundamental basics.
Anyway…. The idea that a corporation is nothing but nonstop rain down of executive decisions is also wrong. Small teams and groups are absolutely leaders as well. They know their area best and propose things to do in that area. They are accountable to the executives, who need to balance all needs and keep people from building little empires off in the corner. But the executives never tell us what to do in our area. We tell them what we’re going to do and what more they should fund. We don’t have dictator power, but the point is neither so they.
So really, just no. I know this “work is a dictatorship” meme is appealing to a teenager working in retail but it’s a childish metaphor. I do happen to have an extraordinarily good job and I have risen to a mid level of authority there so I don’t feel like a powerless drone. That’s not true for everyone. But neither is the teenage angst.
You could also say families are dictatorships since parents make the important decisions and can’t be overridden by kids. But you’d be stupid to look at it that way and ignore the nonstop care and consideration and support that the parents shower on their kids, while they blunder about selfishly and oblivious.
Dictatorship! To arms! Just… laughable!
I am sorry, but your take seems to be highly influenced by your own privileges and willful ignorance. You talk about your job opportunities and benefits within your organization, ignoring that I wrote
meaning you are obviously in the fortunate group, and your anecdotal stories are consequently irrelevant to the points being made about the less fortunate one.
The idea that only edgy teenagers who hate hard and honest work can get behind this sentiment is plain reductionist and false. Furthermore, if I understand you correctly from
I would guess you are an American, and if so I hope you are aware that your institutions are deeply flawed and in a lot of cases really undemocratic, which makes the particular comparisons you make to your job even less apt.
You also get a little into the issue of the often strong hierarchical structures of family and other form of tribes, which is actually of some relevance in the question of freedom, but totally besides the point with respect to democracy in the workplace. I am not telling you that your job sucks, I am just stating that there are jobs that suck and that they are mostly filled with underprivileged people, many of whom are there precisely due to lack of options. That is really one of the main issues that socialism tries to answer: equal opportunity for all. Because, although you may not like it, your success and others lack of it is not purely meritocratic and just.
There are socioeconomic factors that far exceed the impact of skills and socialism, workplace democracy and the likes is more just, more moral and gives greater opportunity for all than a capitalist society such as the US. Thinking otherwise is laughable and you being a reactionary content with status quo is unsurprising given your self-proclaimed privilege.
Well I’m very sorry for not meeting your expectation that exceptional cases should sit quietly instead of making themselves heard.
You think working for a corporation is the same as living under a dictatorship?
Yeah, this thought is someone trying to compare apples to oranges.
Then there’s the throw away comment of how you barely know anyone there, that’s a personal thing. I work for a small company now but I used to work for a hospital with over 2,000 employees, I didn’t know most of them but I knew the 100 or so people I interacted with pretty well and did things outside of work with many of them on more than one occasion.
As I walk through the front door of my air-conditioned office building and say hello to the receptionist I can't help but feel this is just what it was like living under Marcos or Pinochet.
/s
Plenty of people live comfortable lives under dictatorship, you can compare that office worker to a citizen in Qatar and they'd probably live similar lives materially.
You could also compare the sweat shop worker for the company that office workers company contracts their manufacturing out to, to the migrant pseudo-slave workers in Qatar.
Think you had a typo there^
To the level that the corporation has control over your life, yeah. What do you think banana republics are? The more the company can control your life, the more its undemocratic nature becomes apparent. Working for a small company in a competitive market might not look like a company town, but it has the same fundamental structure as one. The main difference is that the small company has to offer a good deal to their employees compared to competitors. If the company is the only hirer in town, then they'll suddenly not have as much motivation to treat you well. If they control the housing, means of travel, and cops as well, you're basically enslaved.
Exactly. It's soul-crushing, but generally not body-crushing.
The CEO can take away your livelihood at a whim, destroying your future career, and everyone has to tug the forelock.
Dictatorships are not bad in and of themselves. A benign dictatorship could be the most effective form of governing, there's just no mechanism to stop them when they stop being benign.
And on the flip side a CEO can improve and expand many people’s careers and therefore wealth.
A dictatorship like Mao Zedong, Mussolini, Hitler, etc can flow all the wealth and power to themselves, oppressing the people under them.
The point it: You can’t talk about best case scenario of one and not the other. Usually, as it’s human nature, both are going to sequester wealth and power for themselves over the people under them, but a bad dictatorship is leagues worse than a bad company/CEO.
Yeah, there's good CEOs and bad ones. But the hierarchical power structure is the same.
CEOs are like kings of their empire.
HR is like the court jester
Not sure I'd die for democracy.. it's a popularity contest where 80 year old millionaires compete to see who looks best in a suit.
Freedom, sure. But that's not the same thing.
You're describing a representational democracy. What do you think about direct democracy?
That's elections, democracy is a system of government by consent
But I agree with the current state of US and UK politics, 2 party systems are only better because a 1 party system is even worse
I have a problem with the willingly in this thought.
The issue is that people are pretty unwilling to be homeless or starve if there's an alternative (no matter how terrible).
Working is the worst way to prevent yourself from starvation and homelessness except for all of the others.
But we don't need to accept a dictatorship to work. We should be working towards democratizing the workplace, forming unions, and creating worker owned businesses.
Yes, agreed 100%. Should. Til then though, still gotta eat and also not be homeless.
Yep. We have to deal with it for now, but we shouldn't accept it as the way I has to be. People should be going to their work and speaking with their coworkers about unions and other options. We're all in this together against the owners. They try to turn us against each other.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but I've been homeless before and I don't think it's an "issue" that I don't want to go back to that.
It's not an issue, that's just an effect of the sarcastic phrasing. There's kind of an embedded notion within the original thought that people actually do this by choice. I think most work in dictatorial companies because there's really no other choice except destitution.
Thanks, that's what I figured since my experience has been have a job or be homeless and it really is my ass onto the street as soon as there is only small unemployment checks.
Working is better than being homeless for most people. Because you can, doesnt mean everyone can.
I agree but that doesn't really clear up what I was trying to understand?
Lots of people are not willing to die for democracy, some even fight against it out of ignorance or powerlust.
That's not what dictatorship means
Workplaces are structured without democracy by default, and adding democracy can be helpful to workplace problems.
It's a job, not a country you're living in.
And? I shouldn't get a say? Without a say workers deal with being underpaid, and unsafe conditions. Sometimes the federal government helps fix this. But better yet form a strike, use the collective action to get a fairer workplace.
You do get a say in safety, there are very harsh laws if companies get reported not following safety measures. I think everyone is asking for more pay lol, but that has nothing to do with democracy. You only should have a say for so much, there are many things that only those with certain education should have a say. Because again, it's not a country.
The rich are not smarter than us!
Getting more pay often requires democratic actions. Striking, unionizing. Unions democratize a workplace by providing leverage behind workers concerns.
You must not be American. From an American perspective, employers are basically lawless.
The eventual theoretical climax being siezing the means of production. Then there is no longer an owner or board of shareholders with structural heirarchical control over what is made, who makes it, and how much they are paid.
I can tell that you have never dealt with an OSHA inspection. Like all things government, most of the rules make sense, some of them don't, and some things should be covered but aren't. It still breaks my brain that propane gas tank forklifts used indoors are allowed but an audible pneumatic hose leak supposedly isn't.
I have seen Cleatus scream about how they can't run their line because they hear a hose leak and use the forklift to drive to the break room. Sigh.
Education does not mean rich. There's still a workplace hierarchy in socialism, and even communism. Of course America is brought up for no reason lol. You don't understand what you're talking about, and that's not even true.
Sorry.
Directorship*
Functionally, they are the same.
Search for a new job since your current one is treating you terribly
What job (aka enslavement apparently)do you have irl
Factory worker.
Definitely not a rollform operator if that is the case. Machine builder?
So how would a factory line work without leadership lol
Voting for a leader democratically does not mean that there is no leader.
That makes zero sense in a workplace context
Really? What's wrong with someone having a say in who their boss is?
I have my ideas.
What's your job?
You are incorrect. I absolutely run my businesses as a dictatorship because I’m the owner. We don’t “vote” on what to do, if you don’t like my ideas you are FIRED. Same goes for my tenants, if you don’t like my rules then get out of my property!!
I dictatorship would mean they'd die if they didn't do what you liked lol. It's in a government context, not a contractual obligation. A tennet can find another place to live, and a worker can find another company.
In what world does a dictatorship require everyone else to die if they don't agree? They have control over the institution, but they don't have total control over every individual.
You do not know what you are talking about. If you want to run your business as a democracy fine but you won’t be successful. I will continue running mine with an iron fist as a dictatorship.
Why do you talk like you're in a kung fu movie?
It's literally the definition, you are just objectively wrong
https://www.britannica.com/topic/dictatorship
You are wrong, and stop telling me how to run my business
god forbid someone steal a packet of soy sauce.
Stealing anything from a place of business is unforgivable
I just imagine you as like a stiff Japanese business man and you're constantly holding up a katana, waiting to cut someone's head off for a petty crime.
Not far from the truth, but I am an all American businessman and as such prefer firearms to blades.
way to suck all the cool out of it by being American.
The overlap of people willing to let themselves be beat down and exploited at work, and the people that would actually fight and die for democracy is slim to none.
Resource extraction companies are notoriously bad employers. I'd bet there's more of an overlap in those sort of jobs.
It's... not weird at all. Democracy is a form of governance that permeates all our lives and controls the state that has a monopoly of violence that can be used against us and take away our rights. It's not something we can opt-out of so it's important that everyone has a say in it.
Small groups forming to do things like commerce or non-profits or whatever are completely voluntary and can't take our rights away. The fact is, these authoritarian-like structures are efficient and effective. Even employee-owned corporations tend to organize this way by electing the officers.
Would love to see more companies experiment with democratic organizations though.
Arguably technology has changed this paradigm a lot. More people now just means more thinkers, who work best not under stress
-George Patton
We have a choice not to work?
Choosing death by starvation is not a choice. Work or die, slave.
Sartre would disagree, but then Sartre was a professional philosopher.
You think a company should pay you even if you decide not to work? As much as I wish the universe rained down food, housing, and smart phone but the reality is that it cares not of you get a meal at the end of the day.
I have no idea what point you are trying to make.
There are better systems that require you not to die when you dont work.
Really? Like other people take out your garbage and bringing you your food and build your house.
The universe cares less if you starve but we do live in a time when we have to do very little work to survive quite well.
Companies are already paying people who decide to not work - their owners.
Ya ok.
sure, just sign up to like 10 credit cards, max them out getting good reliable camping equipment, and take a large loan out for one of those survival vans and flea the country
This must be the same thought process of the people I see living in camping vans and tents down the street from me.
On which border is it common to cross from a democracy to a dictatorship for work?
I think the idea is that most workplaces are dictatorships
Careful you might start thinking about democratizing the workplace. If you start doing that you might wind up one of us filthy syndicalists
Don't threaten me with a good time!
I worked for a cooperative once. It had its upsides. But it eventually lost steam because of the diffusion of responsibility. At its peak it had a strong core council of 5-7 official members looking after it and it flourished. But it was somewhat of a labor of love and over time they had kids, moved away, etc and eventually there just weren’t enough committed core people to keep it going.
A small business generally has one person who is ready to do absolutely whatever it takes to make it a success. This can be game changing. All their skin is in the game. If they have to skip a paycheck they do. If they have to work all night they do.
You know, a dictator, as you call them -_-
Frankly, I'm a coward. There's very little I'd be willing to die for and democracy certainly isn't one of those things.
I'm sure plenty of Ukrainians thought the same pre invasion. Seen a fair few IT technicians flying fpv drones on the frontline
Plus, just working in a munitions factory makes you a target, and Russia has been indiscriminate in their targeting the civilian population
I doubt I would suddenly get brave if the U.S. was invaded. I've never even picked up a gun.
I served in the military and qualified as an expert marksman having never handled a firearm prior, and I wouldn’t honestly pick up a gun to kill anyone either. I’m also a coward. I found a role that would ensure I was as safe as possible at all times, cuz I’m a pacifist, but wanted college paid for. I’d have had to explicitly request to be put in danger, which I did not do.
The good news is you don’t have to be willing to shoot/kill anyone to offer tangible support if shit hits the fan :)
(I actively discourage people from joining the military now, though.. I grew up and learned what was really going on, and I absolutely don’t support it)
I feel like most ukrainians aren't fighting for democracy. They're kleptocracy is marginally better than the one in Russia, but not worth dying over. Their fighting either for nationalism and hatred of Russian imperialism that's oppressed them for centuries, or personal honor and fear of being called a coward by their wider social group.
In general nationalism and personal honor are the main reasons people will voluntarily sign up, outside of personal gain and mercenaries. In the west that nationalism gets tied up with ideas of democracy, but if a dictatorship took over the u.s. I doubt there'd be much of a difference in volunteers for the next war.
https://www.journalofdemocracy.org/articles/why-ukrainians-are-rallying-around-democracy/
You can go to work for yourself, you can’t fork your own country.
The dominant cultural ideology blinds us to the obvious contradictions.
I don't have a choice. If I wanna do the kind of work I enjoy and pays enough to feed my family, I have to submit to corporate dictatorship.
There is a difference even between an autocracy and a dictatorship. There's a difference between specialization and dictatorship.
The things you don't fully grasp should get questions; not the host outrageous label you can think of at the time.
In a workplace you're trading your labour, skills, and time for money. Think of it more like a convenience store, do you get to vote for the guy behind the counter, do you get to vote for the prices of the products? How would a convenience store be able to function if the customers could vote on these things?
Democracy works with government because most voters are also taxpayers. There's a an incentive not to vote for things that aren't affordable because the people voting have to pay for it.
Plenty of businesses function with workers in control.
Also, the basic understanding (though not totally accurate) is that customers do vote on prices by choosing what, where, and when to purchase. The issue is they don't organize to vote on it, and businesses do shady deals to rig the vote.
Isn't that supply and demand? If something doesn't sell enough, it stops being on the shelf. You vote with your purchases.
Some places even give out surveys where you would rate the person who helped you. Some places take those surveys seriously and if you get bad ratings, they fire you.
Which is why I only give five star rating for my rideshare driver.
yeah I use to work at a place that had "CSAT" I don't remember what it stands for but a lot of companies use it and some use it more than others.
Basically it's the same but usually those surveys provide open ended comments where the customers can rip you a new one if they feel like they didn't get what they wanted. You could be telling a customer no based on policy, and then a manage will see the bad review and use that to give you a talking to about work improvement.
It's so incredibly backwards.
Sucks dude
Every single civilization with every single type of governance in human history requires most people to work. That will continue to be the case for a long time into the future.
Is the current system perfect? No. However it does allow for a greater degree of latitude than basically everything that came before it. It also has safeguards to ensure there's some sort of safety net if you fall on hard times.
You also mentioned democracy. Assuming you live in America, you can vote in a way that introduces reform to the system.
Starting a violent revolution is a last resort sort of thing.
cognitive dissonance or something
In the US? I only work full time because of the constant threat of death if I don't.
If you think about it, Thomas Hobbes was right but on a smaller scale. Society only works when people submit themselves to their bosses.
Did he say that?
Well, he argued that we should all submit ourselves to an absolute sovereign, by which he meant a king or queen. Unfortunately he kind of lost out that argument since most places have rejected absolute monarchy, but luckily, people can still submit themselves to the new ruling class of business and property owners 😊
People are not willing to die for democracy.
People are willing to die doe their cunt tree.
Yes that actually the key difference. We willingly enter those communist dictatorships and we are not prisoners there but can leave.
That is fundamentally different than a place like a communist dictatorship country, which builds walls to turn itself into a prison.
Being willing to enter and able to leave a dictatorship makes it a whole different thing than a dictatorship you are born into, and cannot leave.
Consent is everything. Like, a person can tie you up, beat you with a whip, pour hot wax on your skin to burn you, and put clothes pins on your nipples, and it’s okay as long as there’s consent. That is, objectively, a bad way to treat someone. But consent changes everything.
And it goes the other way too. Helping a person without their consent is wrong. This is the problem with a lot of the social movements these days: not seeking consent from those they seek to help.
Democracy, the God that failed.
In my country i can choosr who runs it...
I cant, at my job
But i can easily choose to quit and find a different job, or start my own company. I dont have those options, when it comes to my country.
Not everyone can just quit and do a different job or become a freelancer, and some people can just packup their stuff and move to a different country without issues.
So, I don't understand your point.
OP I'm familiar with your sentiment. This rhetoric is too ideological for most, I'd dial it back and try again. Most are allergic to leftist words and ideas. Union recruiters say to never even use the "U" word, and even saying burgeosie will have libs mocking you.
Some might say it is not radical enough. OP made an okay point and doesn't need to placate reactionaries.