VR still makes 40-70% of players want to throw up, and that's a huge problem for the companies behind it

stopthatgirl7@kbin.social to Games@lemmy.world – 201 points – VR still makes 40-70% of players want to throw up, and that's a huge problem for the companies behind it
pcgamer.com

Why virtual reality makes a lot of us sick, and what we can do about it.

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Some researchers did a study several years ago and found that adding a virtual nose decreased motion sickness significantly. However, I don't think I've seen any developers try this. I wonder if it'd help.

Have they discovered a link between people with big noses and less motion sickness? Imo these are the more important questions that will drive humanity forward

You can always see your own nose BTW, your brain just usually excludes it from what you actively notice.

Yes although I’m hypothesising large nose peoples brains will be doing this with a larger area hence the greater effects against motion sickness. It could lead to novel treatments for motion sickness like wearing a big nose while riding on a bus.

adding a virtual nose decreased motion sickness significantly

Behold, the VR headset of the future!

Id love to See that. I cant even imagine how interesting some of These noses for Alien games might Look

Would be nice if the author had done a bit of research on the specific things that had been done in VR since he tried his DK2 to prevent nausea:

An Oculus DK2, a PC that couldn’t quite run a rollercoaster demo at a high-enough framerate, and a slightly-too-hot office full of people watching me as I put on the headset. Before I’d completed the second loop-de-loop, it was clear that VR and I were not going to be good friends.

The study the author quotes dates to August 2019!

https://insidescience.org/news/cybersickness-why-people-experience-motion-sickness-during-virtual-reality

For one, non-persistent displays have become the norm. These only show (strobe) the image for a fraction of the frame time and go black in between. Valve discovered that the full 1/90th of a second an image is displayed is enough to induce nausea if the head is moving during that time. So the Vive (and the Oculus Rift) had non-persistent displays.

The stobing effect is so fast you don't notice it.

Elimination of artificial movement is another. The reason Valve focused on games with teleport movement and made a big deal of "room scale" early on was to eliminate the nausea triggers you encounter in other types of experiences.

Valve had an early version of Half Life 2 VR during the days of the DK2, but they removed it as the artificial motion made people sick (myself included).

For many, sims work as long as there is a frame in their field of vision to let their brains lock into that non-moving frame of reference (ex car A-pillars, roof line, dash board, outline of view screen on a ship interior, etc). Note the frame still moves when you move your head, so it's not a static element in your field of view.

Also it helps if your PC can render frames under the critical 11.1ms frame time (for 90Hz displays). Coincidentally, 90Hz is the minimum Valve determined is needed to experience "presence". Many folks don't want to turn down graphic options to get to this. It's doable in most games even if it won't be as detailed as it would on a flat screen. Shadows is a big offender here.

Resolution isn't as big of a factor in frametimes as detailed shadows and other effects. I have run games at well over 4k x 2.5k resolution per eye and been able to keep 11.1ms frame times.

Lastly, it has been noted that any movement or vibration to the inner ear can for many stave off nausea. This includes jogging in place while having the game world move forward. For many years we've had a free solution that integrates into Steam VR:

https://github.com/pottedmeat7/OpenVR-WalkInPlace

Jog in place to make your character move forward in the direction you're facing. Walk normally to experience 1-to-1 roomscale.

I've use the above to play Skyrim VR without any nausea. Good workout too!

For car, flight, spaceflight simulators, a tactile transducer on your chair (looks like a speaker magnet without the cone - or basically a subwoofer without the cone) can transfer the games sound vibrations directly to you and therefore your inner ear and prevent nausea.

I've literally played over 1,000 hours of Elite:Dangerous this way as well as Battlezone VR and Vector 36. All games that involve tons of fast artificial movement.

The main issue is too many people tried out VR cardboard or old DK2 demos with low and laggy framerate, persistent displays, and poorly designed VR experiences and simply write off all VR as bad and nausea inducing.

Edit: added links and trailers to the games mentioned so folks can see the motion involved. The "study" wasn't a proper study. It was a quote from a scientist. No data was given about what headsets or which experiences caused nausea.

VR is a niche product that hasn't and won't solve this problem.

It's very simple. The device needs to maintain 90fps at 90hz minimum. Anything below that can cause nausea. We've known this since at least 2017.

I'd go so far as to say 144hz at 144 fps should be the bare minimum. And that's not even factoring in stuff like screen door effect, latency issues, etc etc. All of which play a part.

The Quest 2 has pretty much eliminated the screen door. I've never had any issues at 90/90, but sensitive people might. The higher the better really. I hate saying it, because I despise Facebook, but the headset is actually really good, especially if you use it through Steam Link. Comparable headsets are 2-3x as much money.

I legitimately never thought twice about them because I thought you could only play shitty Facebook games with them, but you can play real games on Steam? How are the controllers?

Yup! You can use the Steam Link and play all of the Steam VR games you already own. You can either use a long USB-C cable, or WiFi 6.

For the Quest 2, the ideal setup is a dedicated (but inexpensive) router for wireless communicating with the headset. Last I looked a few specific models of semi-generic $50 routers were tested by the community.

Then you can either run your PC lan connection through that router or if you have a second Ethernet connection, use one just for that router.

They are great. I have a mate who has an index and regularly has issues with controller config playing games on steam. I've had none with my quest 2.

Good to know. They don't have cameras you put around the room right? How is the tracking? I worry about it losing tracking a lot when the controllers aren't in view.

It uses inside-out tracking, but I haven't had any issues with it. If you move your hand out of view, it knows that you did so and will just make it disappear and reappear when it moves back into view.

No base stations required. If you hold your controller behind your back you will lose tracking as it uses cameras on the headset to track it. Hasn't really been an issue for me though.

Okay, I had to ask because my only experience is with the Vive and I was impressed with it's tracking via the stations.

I had the original HTC Vive before my wife gave me the Oculus Quest 2 for Christmas last year. The Quest 2 is good enough that I gave the Vive to my son and just kept the Quest 2. The resolution is much clearer on the Quest, and the tracking is very good too.

One of the very cool things about the Quest 2 is that it's a stand-alone device, so for native games you can play it in your kitchen, or backyard, or anywhere with a lot of room. There are several titles that have been ported to the Oculus store for the Quest, and they're on-par with their Steam equivalents.

Of course the performance won't be as good as a full-blown gaming computer, so I usually play through the Steam Link, using a 35 foot USB-C cable. Another benefit to the cable is that it charges the headset while you're playing, so you aren't limited to 2 hour sessions. I've probably played 100 hours in Elite Dangerous using the Steam Link and it's beautiful, smooth, and near flawless. My WiFi router is pretty far from my game room, so I haven't had much luck with the WiFi Steam Link, but some people seem to have had success with it based on what I've read on a bunch of Reddit posts.

When I got the Quest 2 you could still use your Oculus account to log in, but now they require that you merge it with your Facebook account, which is really annoying. That's the only thing I dislike about the Quest, that you need a Facebook account. But you can turn off sync, and it doesn't post to Facebook, or share your gaming history, or anything like that. I haven't launched or even looked at the metaverse, because it doesn't interest me at all, and it's decoupled enough that it's pretty much a non-issue once you get over the fact that a Facebook account is required. You'd have to spend another $500-$1000 for an equivalent device that doesn't require Facebook.

They got rid of the Facebook account requirement. You now can use a meta account instead. So kinda better as I defacebooked myself and the meta account is only used on the quest

It's not that simple though. At any frame rate or frame time, you can still experience the movement disconnect. Simulating a roller coaster while sitting still will make the brain think you are moving while all other sensory perception says no, and you get nauseous.

Same as sea, air and car sickness, and those all have pretty great FPS.

That's true, but when it drops below 90/90 you're a lot more likely to experience motion sickness from something as simple as looking around. With the higher frame rates, the motion is perceived more naturally by the brain, and you're a lot less likely to become nauseous. For the games more intense movement, where your perceived movement is disconnected from your actual movement, you can get used to it eventually, as long as your system is pushing enough information to your eyes. I have a top of the line gaming computer and I could only play very short sessions of Elite Dangerous when I started, since the perception is that you're in a spaceship that's flipping and spinning all around. After several short sessions, my brain started adapting until I could play for hours on end.

Frametimes is the specific measure.

<11.1ms for 90Hz or <8.33ms for 120Hz

If the game, experience, or whatever breaches that minimum frame time frequently, then you can experience nausea just from moving your head around.

It does require some sacrifices like turning shadows down a notch or two in some game engines and choosing additional visual effects carefully. Some visual effects require additional computation passes and can add the the frame time.

A low latency CPU (like the AMD 3D cache CPUs) or a normal mid to high end CPU with fast memory with good timings helps quite a bit.

The GPU should be capable of pushing the pixels and shading for the target resolution. Even with a 6900xt I've been able to comfortably push over 4500x3000 per eye rendering (enough to get a nice anti-aliasimg effect on my Pimax 8kX at the "normal" 150 degree H.FoV) in most games.

Surprisingly, fidelity FX can help as well (the non-temporal version).

I mean... it's also the fact you can move in the game while sitting down or standing still IRL. The framerate isn't going to affect that inner ear/brain disconnect that causes motion sickness. Get a viable, and affordable, omnidirectional treadmill out and that would be a big help.

Having a fan blow into your face really helps too. I cant play more than 10 or 15 minutes without one, but with I'm fine for hours.

If a game uses smooth locomotion, instead of teleportation based movement, I cannot play it without air blowing into my face, or sometimes been at all. Otherwise I have no issues at all

I just keep getting annoyed when I see an interesting looking game and find that it's VR-only.

Honestly even the very best VR-only games are only interesting because they are in VR.

Half-Life: Alyx is IMO still the best of those and it can be played outside of VR thanks to mods... But in that case it's a curiosity, not an actual good traditional game.

HLA in VR is incredible though and I wish there were more games like it.

When i look at vr titles, i still feel like i'm buying a tech demo, not a game

Alyx absolutely broke that mould for me. it started off good but built up to incredible as it progressed. I just wish more developers would do similarly. But then this article is the reason why they don't

Alyx was indeed great. Also i learned there that i don't only get sick in vr, i'm also really scared for some reason

Yeah alyx's horror areas were an experience, I'm glad it didn't have a ravenholm level

I don't have problems with VR. I sold my Quest 2 cos there are not games like Alyx, which I enjoyed a lot, and that's a pity. I see it going the way of 3D.

I wonder if this 40-70% demographic has actively tried to play it a couple times? My first experience with VR was incredibly disorienting, and yes, made me feel nauseated. But after playing for 2-3 hours across a handful of 15-20 minute sessions (passing it around a few friends for an evening) that just went away. Once the body uses it a bit and learns, even high-movement non-teleport movement games stop being an issue.

I wonder if I happen to be in that upper percent, or if the numbers in question are a matter of people who tried it once in their life and felt sick. Clearly the author has put real time into trying to move past it, but that doesn't say anything for the study he quotes the "40-70% of players are 15 minutes" numbers from.

Heard somewhere that it can get worse if you try to power through the nausea and sickness. Like your body remembers that it made you sick before and wants to actively avoid going through that experience again. So if you start feeling sick, especially when you first start out, stop playing.

That’s just it; the first-time experience is so critical in every game, and often every console.

The systems that needed users to follow 30 steps to set them up, or try them 8 times until they could avoid nausea, often failed.

Convenience is important.

Since you're asking for anecdotes: my VR headset consistently made me sick following 30 min to an hour at the absolute max. I still played dozens of times for short spurts, but it never got better for me.

I kinda am, tbh. I don't believe for a second that my experience represents everyone, but such large numbers also don't seem to make sense to me.

I played VR and had a blast. It was usually the ones that were mounted to the ceiling at a mall arcades. I could play no big deal for hours. My brother in law got a vr headset for Christmas and I tried to use it and got unbelievably sick after 20 minutes of playing it.

I played super hot, some moving zombie game, and that plank game on thw vr headsets at mall arcades with no problem moving around, twisting, and moving fast. I played a stationary puzzle game on my bil's. I dont know what causes the sickness but it was veey bad on his unit. I womder if the suspension at the mall arcades made the difference, rather than having a free roaming headset.

Lol, I have better things to do with my time than training to play shovelware video games.

In 5 years from now, VR will be 5 years away of becoming mainstream. Just like 5 years ago.

LMFAO, a lot of you guys sound so fucking bitter and I don't understand. I used a Vive years ago and it was so much fun, zero nausea the very first time I played it and I played it for hours. The tech has only gotten better and better. Stay mad. 😂

Edit: Accidentally said Rift when I actually meant the HTC Vive. It was awesome.

There are definitely games that make me more suck than others. But even the "good ones" are kinda weird. Like I can't imagine playing a vr game for an hour or so. That's why i don't even bother anymore

Yeah. I can play Thrill of the Fight with no nausea after several matches. I also didn't get sick from Vader Immortal or other games like Beat Saber or Crisis VRigade. Games where you move in-game but stay still in real life though, I feel like throwing up after a short time.

Especially if there's head bob. That simulates the exact difference in your senses of vision and balance that triggers seasickness.

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Big reason why I just never understood why Meta bet the farm on VR/metaverse. Such a stupid move, literally everyone knew that VR wasn't ready for mainstream. The only people willing to get it were tech nerds and some gamers, and really that had nothing to do with the metaverse, it was because they could play games in it.

Until it gets stable and doesn't feel like I'm strapping a brick onto my face, it's not going to happen mainstream. It also can't just connect to a PC, average people don't want to be strapped down to something. And I know, that's a lot to ask, but if you want to base your entire company on VR, those are the hard realities. People want something like sunglasses, not something that feels like duct taping a laptop in front of their face

Yeah still have my Rift CV1, but it is sitting in a box.

I've used VR a few times, and I can confirm that the only part that makes me throw up is the price tag.

It also doesn't feel at all like you're looking at something in front of you. It still feels like you've got 2 TV's strapped to your head.

I guess I'm old school and just play games with m&k or controller. DINOSAUR I am.

I disagree. I definitely feel like I'm there with everything scaled up to real size. Like I never really considered how absolutely massive Radroaches from Fallout were until playing Fallout 4 VR.

It's actually incredibly immersive now. You need to try a flagship headset, not a cell phone in a box.

Geez I thought I was the only one that thought so! VR is not immersive at all, it literally feels like looking at a screen

I've never felt more sick than after trying the VR for the first time. GearVR on Samsung Galaxy S6. Never happened again though, regardless of how much time I spent in.

The main issue on this headset was that I felt like my head was really small, while turning. I think the camera was just rotating on it's own axis, or around a sphere that was way smaller than a human head.

Phone VR isn't really VR. It's a poor excuse of an attempt. It's pointless to compare gearvr to anything in the actual vr space.

The only difference between gear and quest, is that the phone cannot be taken out of the quest, plus it has more sensors.

There is a huge difference between gearvr and any sensible VR like the Vive, Pimax or Index. I've tried both. Gear made me almost barf immediately. I'm playing Project Wingman with no issue on the other headsets. There is a huge technological difference.

I can't believe people are still on the VR gimmick train. 99% of what they want from VR is interactivity which can be done with a standard computer screen and the Wiimote-like controllers. Looking around with your head is neat-ish but is really the primary cause of the motion sickness and essentially cuts you off from the real world which can be incredibly dangerous as well.

Companies have tried to make VR a thing for decades now, and now that graphics and hardware technology have advanced, they're doing a major push trying to make it an acceptable, "it's everywhere now, so many people are using it" thing when it's really not. It's a niche device with a market share less than Linux (Linux itself, not Valve's "fake Windows Linux device that just runs Windows games without paying Microsoft money -- how is this not a violation of Windows TOS") or MacOS and yet they say those are too niche and insignificant to care about while praising VR. It's time to give it up and accept that VR is a worthless gimmick, and if you want interactivity, find better ways to do so without making people sick and cutting them off from the world around them.

Valve’s “fake Windows Linux device that just runs Windows games without paying Microsoft money – how is this not a violation of Windows TOS”

Valve uses a build of WINE called Proton, not Windows. Microsoft's TOS terms apply to Windows. They don't have anything to do with software that's simply able to run the same binaries.

EDIT: Ah, I looked at your comment history, and it appears to just be trolling, so I assume that this wasn't a serious question.

Trolling? No. What part of my history makes you think that?

Wine (and by extension, Proton) is simulating a Windows install with no Microsoft license. How is this not a clear violation of Microsoft's TOS? I can see if you are just using it personally how it can be a grey area, but VALVE IS USING IT PROFESSIONALLY, INCLUDED WITH THEIR INSTALL, FOR PROFIT. Microsoft should sue the fuck out of them.

If you think that's a troll, you have issues with reality. You can't just create your own version of Windows (even one like Wine) without repercussions. Get over yourself.

Did we finally find the guy who unironically thinks APIs should be copyrightable?

Putting a bunch of APIs together in such a way as to create an entire copyrighted OS inside of another one 100% should be. You want to make DirectX itself for Linux, fine. But don't tell me you think putting it and a ton of other Windows libraries together -- even ones made "clean" -- to run an OS very closely to its target OS (and this isn't emulation, it's making your own version of an OS) is not a problem.

Like I said, making Wine and using it casually for a single person isn't the real issue here. It's concerning, yes, but when a single user is using it for their own purposes, I think there's nothing huge to be concerned with. When a major gaming corporation is using it as part of their own software running under a piece of their own hardware for financial gain -- really? You don't see the issue? How has Microsoft not seriously put an end to this already? If Microsoft is giving their blessing to this, they are opening up all sorts of copyright infringement across the board for software of all kinds.

Maybe if your mind is tainted by "Free software is holy and can never be wrong", you have this idea that it's fine. Free software is fine on its own as long as it follows a set of ethical and legal rules. Wine is definitely not doing this by allowing Valve to take their fork and making it part of their Switch-like hardware. Valve is specifically going full on Linux to avoid paying Microsoft for the rights to Windows on their machine, and using Wine/Proton to do this is simply wrong, no matter how you look at it.

I cannot believe anyone sees me as in the wrong on this issue. Valve should have pushed harder for native Linux gaming, but they failed, so they should have given up. Instead, they decided to do the wrong thing with something that should have been stopped from day one.