Israeli minister Ben Gvir calls for execution of Palestinian prisoners to ease overcrowding

Linkerbaan@lemmy.worldbanned from sitebanned from communitybanned from site to World News@lemmy.world – 467 points – Israeli minister Ben Gvir calls for execution of Palestinian prisoners to ease overcrowding
middleeasteye.net

Itamar Ben Gvir, Israel's far-right national security minister, has called for the execution of Palestinian prisoners to ease overcrowding in the country's jails.

Writing on social media, he welcomed a decision by the Israeli army to build 936 additional prison places for "security prisoners". "The additional construction will allow the prison service to take in more terrorists, and will bring a partial solution to the prison crisis that exists in the Shabak," he said, referring to the Israeli Prison Service.

"The death penalty for terrorists is the right solution to the incarceration problem, until then - glad that the government approved the proposal I brought."

During a visit by members of the Public Defender’s Office, squalid conditions were noted, including "intolerable overcrowding", with less than three square metres of space per person, poor sanitary conditions, pest issues, inadequate ventilation, and a lack of basic necessities for the incarcerated.

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I wonder if they will concentrate all of the prisoners in one spot before they implement Ben’s solution

With so many prisoners it's gotta be hard to process all of those death penalties. I wonder if there is a fast and efficient way to apply the death penalty. Maybe they can do it in groups

They could look into repurposing farming equipment and supplies given all the shortages they’re experiencing

Everyone knows that gases are the most convenient option, too. None of the logistical issues of solids and none of the messiness of liquids.

He just wants a bit more Living Space.

בית גידול?

When the Nazis were invading Eastern Europe prior to WWII they told the other European powers they only needed “lebensraum”-“living space.” This comment thread is pointing out the similarities between the actions of contemporary Israel against Palestinians with the actions of Nazi Germany against Jews and other groups they considered “undesirable.”

I know very well what it is. I just wrote the same thing in Hebrew. Why translate Lebensraum to Living Space instead of בית גידול?

I can’t read Hebrew and it got translated to “habitat.” I assumed the question mark indicated a genuine request for clarity.

Why translate Lebensraum to Living Space instead of בית גידול?

Most people here don't speak Hebrew or German.

We've started going full death camp yet people still don't believe that there's a genocide. There are no words to describe just how truly disgusting that is.

He even used the word solution. They don’t even give a fuck anymore

"But it's not their final solution, so it's ok."

It's just an intermediate solution. Why stop at the genocide of the Palestinians? They don't like Iran either.

But when I compare this genocide to the Holocaust I get called an antisemite

those people are saying that in bad faith. they're wiping their asses with the memory of the holocaust, not you

Yes, that comparison is absurd. Don't do that.

30'000 death, including the terrorists mind you, in more than 6 months means roughly 160 per day. The numbers are hardly going up in the past months.

Ausschwitz, one concentration camp out of many, saw more than 1 million people murdered in about 3 years, about 900 per day.

so when the entire population of gaza strip gets murdered is your argument gonna be "it's not a holocaust because there were only 2.2 million Palestinians to begin with"

Only pure death figures which match Auschwitz are actual genocides. Got you.

(Fucking what?)

See that's where you are wrong. Calling evil by showing how it is similar to another evil isn't trying to minimize one. Is it just about numbers? Their universities, schools, hospitals, records and cultures are being destroyed as we speak. Children are being starved. So you're saying this isn't evil enough? Comparing numbers is Israili propaganda at this point. Never again means never again for anyone.

You can compare them in that they are both genocides. The Holocaust was certainly a genocide done on a much larger scale, especially near the end of Nazi Germany. But there isn't a certain death count needed to count as a genocide, we have multiple international definitions to determine and (ideally) prevent them.

Do you think the dead notice the difference?

What kind of asinine comment is this? What does it even mean? It just seems like a snarky thought-terminating cliché to avoid actually having to engage with difficult ideas. The dead don't notice anything, they're dead. Do you think the living notice they weren't murdered?

Do you think the living notice they weren’t murdered?

You tell me.

A meaningless, empty statement.

I think you’re lost Norbert, we’re not talking about your head.

Wow you sure showed me with your insightful commentary! Snark is definitely a substitute for a well-reasoned discussion!

My dude, dudette, I’m not here to argue with you nor am I obligated to teach you anything. Genocide has very little to do with the quantity of people killed. According to the other person’s estimate 30,000 Palestinians have been killed so far. Even if this wasn’t a genocide, that’s 30,000 people that are no longer with us. We just need a little empathy.

I never said it wasn't a genocide, read harder. I just said your original comment was shit, I still think it was.

Leaving aside the fact that it's not the volume that defines genocide, what you're saying doesn't seem to take into account the way that genocide ramped up from a lower initial death rate. The Nazis weren't killing anything like that in the first 6 months.

  • Aid agencies like UNICEF are saying that at the moment a child is wounded or killed every ten minutes in Gaza.

  • In 0.5 years the Gaza genocide has already killed about 1.5% of the population. By comparison the Bosnian genocide killed 3% of the population over 2 years.

Yes, this comment is absurd. Don't do that.

If you're arguing about volume when we're talking about a fascist occupier murdering ethnic prisoners during a genocide, your argument the way the fuck off base.

I refuse to believe that a sane, rational person would put forth such a braindead argument in good faith.

(With my apologies to any braindead people and their families/friends for the unflattering use of the adjective.)

Comparing people that get round up and murdered in insane scales with people in a war zone getting notified about bombings and not leaving is the braindead argument to me.

Since your 160/day figure isn't enough to make the cut, what's the magic number to push them over the threshold and turn this atrocity into a full-blown crime against humanity? As long as they max out at the Holocaust's daily average minus one, everything's peachy? I have no illusions that any of the newly-minted war criminals in the IDF are going to read this and decide to do anything to stop it but an honest, competent observer must see similarities in the barbarism and motives.

If we want to compare it to the Holocaust, then yes, the numbers need to be in the same region. That has nothing to do with the category genocide etc., for obvious reasons. The way people here argue is somewhat in bad faith, hence no need to answer.

What similarities in the motives and barbarism? Who are these 2 comparable?

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Israel is going to build camps to concentrate their prisoners.

Western Rulers: Listen, just cause they are building camps and moving Palestinians into them in large quantities just highlights the danger that the poor Israelis are in!

Israel: Starts ordering suspiciously larges quantities of a certain pesticide

Western Rulers: Obviously they are just trying to treat their fields, absolutely nothing wrong here. Nothing to see here, No Criticisms, we Veto the right to criticize or cover this further!

Soon they'll start sending them to the showers. We've seen this before. Fascists never change

Reminder that even West Bank children who couldn't possibly have any link to Hamas get thrown in jail, by incarcerators able to do whatever the fuck they want because, as they're jailing people outside of their jurisdiction, and the Palestinian Authority has no means to stop it, they don't have to answer to anyone.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/21/a-hidden-universe-of-suffering-the-palestinian-children-sent-to-jail

Just thought you would appreciate the context.

How do they define security prisoners in this context? Is this Gitmo or Aushwitz? Both are war crimes.

Also, you would think these Israeli leaders would be more careful about using the word solution in the context of murdering the fuck out of your political prisoners.

Since Palestinians have no human or civil rights under Israeli Occupation, they can be detained and convicted with no to little evidence. Subject only to military courts they have no fair trial and it's quite normal to coerce (false) confessions. This includes children.

Military Courts - B'TSelem

Israel/OPT: Horrifying cases of torture and degrading treatment of Palestinian detainees amid spike in arbitrary arrests - Amnesty International

After spending the morning reading about the history of Zionism and direct quotes from a bunch of those dudes, honestly, your comment sounds like everything is going exactly to plan.

'In 1938, Ben Gurion described the conflict with the Arabs as "in its essence a political one... politically we are the aggressors and they [the Arabs] defend themselves." Israeli historian Benny Morris affirms Ben Gurion's description, saying: "Ben-Gurion, of course, was right" and goes on to describe Zionism as "a colonizing and expansionist ideology and movement" whose "ideology and practice were necessarily and elementally expansionist." Morris describes the Zionist goal of establishing a Jewish state in Palestine as necessarily displacing and dispossessing the Arab population. The practical issue of establishing a Jewish state in a majority non-Jewish and Arab region was a fundamental issue for the Zionist movement. Revisionist Zionist Ze'ev Jabotinsky described the notion of "transfer" (the Zionist euphemism for ethnic cleansing of the Arab Palestinian population) as a "brutal expulsion" which could resolve this challenge. The idea of transfer was not unique to Revisionist Zionism, in fact, as explained by Morris, "the idea of transferring the Arabs out... was seen as the chief means of assuring the stability of the 'Jewishness' of the proposed Jewish State".

According to Morris, the idea of ethnically cleansing the land of Palestine was to play a large role in Zionist ideology from the inception of the movement. He explains that "transfer" was "inevitable and inbuilt into Zionism" and that a land which was primarily Arab could not be transformed into a Jewish state without displacing the Arab population. Further, the stability of the Jewish state could not be ensured given the Arab population's fear of displacement. He explains that this would be the primary source of conflict between the Zionist movement and the Arab population.'

Mind you, that's Wikipedia, but none the less.

Yeah, Transfer has been part of Zionism since 1882. Books by New Historians definitely go into much more detail and sources than any news article.

The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948 - Nur Masalha

A History of Modern Palestine - Ilan Pappe

The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine - Ilan Pappe

The Biggest Prison on Earth: A History of the Occupied Territories - Ilan Pappe

The 1967 Arab-Israeli War: Origins and Consequences - Avi Shlaim

The Gaza Strip: The Political Economy of De-development - Sara Roy

This is why human rights should apply to humans, and not citizens.

Absolutely. I think the deliberate deprivation of water is the most cruel part of this apartheid.

So... Basically FISA?

Closer to Guantamino Bay, but worse. I don't think Guantamino has a history of abuse and torture of children like the Israeli military prisons.

If they're talking about murdering their charges, Auschwitz seems like the close comparison.

Closer to Gitmo, in that a percentage of the prisoners are actually a threat to "peace" and have committed various crimes. Also like Gitmo a percentage are only in there because their neighbor wanted to steal their land.

We will never even know if anyone in Guantanamo is even a terrorist though.

You just assume they are because that's what Rumsfeld and Cheney told you.

But without due process there's no actual way of determining it.

The answer to prison/jail overcrowding is to release prisoners. Allways. If you're imprisoning so many people that you can't actually hold all of them, you're imprisoning too many people.

And the answer to vacant cells is to congragulate the population on their low crime rate, but the for profit system in the US just finds reasons to put more people in jail and keep them there longer.

Never thought I'd see the 'cycle of abuse' play out with the fucking Holocaust, jfc

Hurt people hurt people Genocided people genocide people.

Learning from other peoples' mistakes/crimes against humanity has never been our strong suit.

The U.S. needs to cut ties with Israel and back away from them. They are not allies. They have been using the U.S. for decades due to our gullible myth-obsessed politicians being heavily lobbied by them. If money were removed from politics, the relationship would dissolve almost immediately.

We get absolutely nothing of value from our relationship with Israel. There is no special strategic advantage as we have bases, NATO countries and allies nearby as well as multiple carrier groups in the Med. Our commerce with them is not special in any way. So, why give them billions a year and stand by their side as they commit genocide and start fights with their neighbors?

We should have no business there except, perhaps, to protect innocent people from genocide.

Good luck running for political office while telling constituents you won't be supporting Israel.

That's just how bad things have gotten. We're not even allowed to fight for what we believe in in a 'democracy.'

I think many voters' positions have evolved on Israel now that the world is watching them commit genocide. Voters will now be able to choose which side of genocide they are on.

Obviously conservatives (including neoliberals) will be pro-genocide. But we need to start running candidates that appeal to non-conservative and progressive voters.

Such little respect for human life is disgusting. Killing in the name of overcrowding is not valid reason to murder.

I'm sure the end solution to this problem will be as cheap and efficient as zyklon-b.

This ass hat is a complete troll. He's like Israel's Lauren Boebert. Both need to go.

Contrary to Boebert Ben Gvir is a convicted terrorist. In fact he has been indicted 53 times and convicted 7 times.

The real problem: Ben Gvir is a critical part of the coalition that keeps Netanyahu in power, meaning his has significant influence over israel law.

More fun lore:

Ben Gvir has faced criminal charges of hate speech against Arabs and was known to have a portrait in his living room of Israeli-American mass murderer and Jewish extremist Baruch Goldstein, who massacred 29 Palestinian Muslim worshipers and wounded 125 others in Hebron, in the 1994 Cave of the Patriarchs massacre.

Wow what a piece of shit.

just call it an Israeli.

took a really runny Israeli earlier.

I could live with this.

"I'm going for a banging fascist ethnostate!"

seriously I'm trying a newdiet, and its a lot rougher abd fattier, less refinement fewer carbs, those mostly in soup,and its making my Israelis super, like... not something I can handle on my own time as much as I'm used to, and runny to the point of kinda splashing in the bowl?

So he's trying to be Himmler.

no, rohm, he's the popular guy to be in this government. they all worship the man.

The difference is Bobo is a powerless rep that will lose her seat and can't stay in coalition with anyone while this guy is a minister who if I recall correctly has the portfolio of overseeing all the police in Israel.

It's a mistake to discount cabinet ministers.

Imagine if Boebert was the director of national security. This guy isn't just a troll, he is in one of the most powerful political positions in Israel. He has called for the extermination of Palestine and his views are not fringe within Israeli politics.

This ass hat is a complete troll.

Very real chance he gets what he wants. Boebert's a bomb-flinging dick-sucking freak, but she's more a part of the theatrical wing of the Republican Party. The MTGs and Ben Sasses are much closer to the center of the party and hold exactly the same views.

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What a dick.

A dick is a person who steals candies from kids. This one doesn't qualify. He is one among the worst human beings possible.

Geez they're literally talking like nazis, no? Aren't they actually doing things like the nazis did too? This is all like a sick horrific joke. The jews are now like the nazis were. How oxymoronic can you get.