Russian Soldiers Say They Are Viewed With Disgust in Moscow.
kyivpost.com
According to two Russian soldiers interviewed by a pro-invasion blogger, if you wear a Russian military uniform on the metro in Moscow people distance themselves and give you dirty looks.
Could be that civilians don't want to be near them because they are scared. Russian soldiers returning from Ukraine are committing all sorts of violent crimes.
I mean would YOU want to be within 20' feet of someone who has a high likelihood of being drunk, suffering from PTSD, and a member of an especially violent and brutal military force?
Don't forget that they might be rapists and murderers.
Plus they rape. A lot.
Mostly Wagner mercenaries
For those who downvote: mostly doesn't mean only, and Wagner mercs were criminals even before they became mercs
You deserve a downvote, because that "mostly" is just baseless guess/assumption.
Maybe it's guessed because one returned merc killed old lady, other killed his wife and another two killed six people and burned their houses.
Or maybe because drafted are not returning because Shoigu won't let them go.
So, that's "most" based on what data?
They're not let go, but they are being rotated.
Holy shiite. So fucked up.
At this point I had some sympathy.
And then he lost my sympathy.
It's like certain problems we have in the US, just with different players.
When "law abiding" is placed before basic ethics, problems like these arise. It's also, sometimes (maybe not here) a smokescreen people use to justify their unethical behavior.
People like to use things like "I didn't make the rules" to justify bullshit - while actively enforcing them.
“I was just obeying orders” - sounds familiar.
Sounds like the excuses of the weak willed. FFS Russia is massive I doubt itd be hard to draft dodge.
I am not in any way defending said people for being rapists, murderers and overall just nasty fellows. I would like to point out that Russia has been known to lash out on people's loved ones to get them to fall in line, so running away may be just part of the equation. Now to what extent one's attachment to one's family forces them to do things is an interesting topic.
Could a person that rapes and murders because they got a free pass be considered capable of genuine human affection towards their loved ones? Or are they using it as a generally accepted excuse 'they were gonna harm my family if I didn't amputate this poor fella's arms in a dark dungeon!'?
That being said, there were some recorded phone conversations circulating around a bit earlier in the conflict about some of them loved ones communicating to soldiers about 'how many did you rape/kill?' and 'loot some shit and bring it home!'
Obligatory not all people are the same and such.
Yeah, draft dodging means maybe losing your freedom and the ability to provide for your children, which is a shit situation to be put in.
But the choice is between poverty and fucking murder. Your choice sucks, but you choose to be a monster. I spare my sympathy for those who choose to be not-murderers.
But at the same time, they are absolutely being fed propaganda and don’t have an accurate view of what is going on in Ukraine.
That is a valid point. I personally can't accept it changing the situation, but I won't hold it against anyone that do.
I wanted to say they know how things are in reality, but suddenly remembered teacher in my school. Yep, some of them are completely brainwashed. Mostly those who will not be drafted. Either by being too old or having non-draftable sex(it would be funny if I'll get banned for this).
As Ekaterina Schulman says: this is unusual war. War is what Yong do, but this one is war of Old/Elders.
I read an interview of locals from an Ukrainian village that got invaded - the Russians rolled in and asked the locals "where are the Nazis? Lead us to them!", and were surprised that the locals just asked them to leave, instead of cheering for their "liberation ".
So the propaganda certainly reached the military, at least.
You mean in early days? Haven't served myself(and hopefully won't), but what I know is in Russian army your only sources of information are your commander and your peers whoose only sources of information is same commander and you. This sounds like an excellent ground for propaganda.
But:
A lot of people were from poor regions.
They are in the middle of nowhere.
So Russians are dumb and their phones don't get internet? Nah. Bullshit. Russians are fucking cowards. The whole world knows it. It's been on display for over a year.
The dumb die. So it is and always has been.
Bro half of the fediverse is loaded up with communists and fascists, respectively.
Kind of weird to pretend Russians have a monopoly on being dumb.
You sure showed'em
Tell me I'm wrong
From what I can tell, around 99% of the time people use the word communism, they don't really know what it means. You seem to know there is a difference between communism and fascism, so, maybe you do.
But, to suggest half is communist, and the other fascist. Is kinda silly. Silly to such an extent that "proving you wrong" is likely to be a futile and unpleasant endeavour. You do you.
There are literally two massive instances lemmy.world had to defederate from, and one is fascist and one is full of communists and tankies.
I wasn't even counting the communists all over this instance.
That's... that wasn't what you said. You said
"Bro half of the fediverse is loaded up with communists and fascists, respectively."
Which is read as "half of the fediverse is loaded up with communists, the other half fascists". Now, I don't know what instances you are talking about, since I'm on lemmy.world, and I have not encountered anything to the effect you are suggesting. Lemmy.world is 129k/391k, the next two largest are lemmy.ml with 46k/391k, then hexbear with fewer. So, yeah... are lemmy.ml communists, or fascists?
If your point was to comment to someone on lemmy.world who said (paraphrasing) "Russians are dumb for getting enough information that it is cowardly to still support the war", saying that well, half of the fediverse is communist and half is fascist. Which, first of all, communism isn't necessarily dumb. Americans think it is, but they don't know what it is, so who gives a shit. But, to what you where saying, and "Tell me I'm wrong". Well, I don't know. You seem to be intelligent enough to figure out which part of the stuff you said is incorrect.
I've bitten the bullet enough to explain this to you, and, I'm not keen on being patient with the deliberate obtuse or those who argue in bad faith.
EDIT: I took a look at hexbear, and that seems very fascist indeed. But, it's still just 10%. I'll admit that's significantly higher than what I thought made sense. The contents exceptionally dumb.
How is hexbear fascist? It's a far left instance...
According to Wiki only 3.5% of Russians have good English proficiency. I also saw numbers between 5% and 10%. Even if it's 10% of Russian population, 90% can only read and understand Russian. They go to the internet and what do they see? Russian fucking propaganda! Now imagine yourself in their shoes.
And whose fault it is? You go on the internet speaking English, and what do you see? Russian fucking propaganda! Where is the Russian-speaking Western propaganda machine when you need it?
When you understand English at a good level you're able to find multitude of opinions and make up your own mind. If you fail for Kremlin propaganda at this point - it's on you. But if you don't know English, you don't have access to alternative opinions at all. That's a VERY BIG difference.
Duh, that's my point! Why isn't there Western propaganda in Russian?
How is it the Kremlin can pay a bunch of people to write fake news in English and turn Western social media to shit, but the White House can't do the same to write fake news in Russian? So much CIA, MI6, all the EU agencies... what, you telling me they don't have the money, or what?
Information in Russia is tightly controlled. All independent media outlets of any kind were forcefully closed in 2022. If you want to create a Western propaganda outlet today, you have to have some people doing stuff in Russia. But once they're there they will go straight to jail.
Well, don't do it in the open. I know the whole world and their uncle let RT run their media freely for like forever, but I can't believe Russia's information infrastructure is so tight that a well organized task force couldn't infiltrate it without being detected.
Like, maybe in 2020 they could have me fooled, but after what they did in the Kyiv assault of 2022, when they fried their own comms, ECMd their own missile defenses, kept selling tank fuel for cigarettes and drinking the cooling liquid... that whole country must be a freaking clown town.
What, do they need to send some clowns to blend in? Then do it, start some pirate news stations, get to the people and let them have an alternate point of view.
Back during the Cold War, the East had Radio Free Europe to listen to. You could get arrested if they caught you, but people still did it. Tech has changed since then, but Radio Free Europe is still working, so they must have some infrastructure still in place. Use that, or whatever modern equivalent.
Draft dodging is probably worse in Russia.
Would you rather kill your own children, or kill someone else's children? At least they aren't shooting refugees for refusing to rape each other, that's the Saudis...
Ain't the world a nice place?
That's nowhere near the dillemma they are facing.
Russians are already torturing, kidnapping and executing civilians so not even a valid whataboutism.
Having your children or parents/grandparents, starve or freeze to death, can easily kill them. Maybe it's not 100% certain like shooting someone to death, but still, most people value their own people's lives more than someone else's.
And it's not whataboutism, just a qualification on a scale: I haven't heard (yet) of Russians forcing civilians to torture each other, so they're like a step less depraved than the Saudis.
I mean, I can have sympathy for any soldier that's being forced to be a soldier. But the reality is, that sympathy dries up pretty quickly when it comes out that while being a soldier they're rapists and war criminals. At certain point 'just following orders' is no longer a valid excuse... and you reach that point long before raping civilian women or PoWs. or... you know... you're own troops while in a combat situation....
If a fascist hands you a gun and tells you to murder a bunch of people so that he can get wealthier and more powerful, you shoot him and ask those people for asylum. Anything else makes you a fascist too.
Counterpoint: fuck going to a Russian prison.
I think there is 1:1 model of Russian prison cell somewhere in Netherlands. At least the type of cell where Navalny is held.
On the other there are rumors about people who commited crimes only to be found guilty and not being drafted as result, but they are rumors.
It's also not a defence. They don't have to follow orders.
They can just turn up get recruited and then surrender to Ukraine at the earliest safe opportunity if they want to. Plenty others have.
It is not patriotic to fight a unjust war, it is not patriotic to just do what you're told without thinking.
Ehh, fatality is high. It's better to not be drafted in first place.
Killing and raping is frowned upon? Really?
Nah, more like, look at that idiot who was too dumb to dodge the draft.
I bet some people give dirty looks because they believe soldiers should die in the trenches protecting mother Russia and not ride the metro in Moscow with privileged Moscovites
I won't say he "was too dumb to dodge the draft" because men(and medics) can be brought by police. Well, procedure is more complex than just dradding people, but you think police state cares?
But he went there himself?.. Complete idiot.
And he expects to be seen not as criminal while wearing uniform? I think calling him having single braincell is an insult to neurons of all species.
The article below this is titled "Russian Soldier Proudly Admits to Killing POWs"
You know, entirely unrelated....
Russian people are changing their minds it seems.
Doesn't matter, they are powerless.
On average, you need just 3.5% of the population to actively oppose the regime to achieve a successful revolution. People can change things, but it looks like a vast majority of Russians are just fine with killing Ukrainians. More expensive iPhones are a bigger issue.
and when you reach 10%, you basically toggle the general opinion massively.
On average sure, but putin probably has more than 3.5% subverting democracy for him, it's not so simple for the people.
I don't think demonizing the Russian populace is really achieving anything, people aren't their government. The US has done some abhorrent things, and I'm not an evil person, nor am I just fine with killing anyone.
The other extreme is treating Russians as poor innocent fellows being oppressed by Putin.
Those poor innocent Russians will be lumbered with the cost of this war.
That's just a bit more than 5m people. Russia has plenty of free space in GULAGs to house 5m people.
Russia doesn't have a GULAG system.
If 5m is too little, make it a 10% (15m) then. Most of the army/security forces are currently engaged in Ukraine.
Not officially, but a lot of Soviet camps are still operational. Creating new ones won't be a big issue. Russian government has plenty of experience.
Well, that would be a good opportunity for Russians to revolt. But I think they're just fine with the current system.
People don't want to be sent to gulags.
Indeed, it looks like most are happier to become murderers.
THAT is the truth. They can love or hate the situation but there's nothing they can do about it. So, no point in generalising and hating on Russians. Save it for Putin, the Russian gov and there butt-licking oligarchs
As are the soldiers
Nope they aren't. I can assure you
Source: Trust me bro
My source is I'm a native Russian speaker and I have to literally manually scan Russian speaking communities for their political views before joining them to make sure I don't join a fascist one🙂
Can you though
https://lemmy.world/comment/2721175
The population in Moscow maybe doing that because of the bombing campaign being inflicted in that area. The outer cities are not seeing the consequences of war unless they loose someone.
Except this started way before bombing. Police and rosgvardia are and were seen same way.
Isn't that the annoying, arrogant, abusive piece of shit?
Great meme!
Same applies to police for last ten years
Police choose to be police, aren't many of the Russian soldiers drafted or forced to serve at this point?
You are correct, many of them conscripted, and even those who was on contract before after mobilization started their contracts became perpetual.
And police not only choose to be police, but also choose to beat students.
You can still refuse to be drafted, you'll likely go into prison, but that's a better option than murdering people.
But prisoners get sent to war...
Only volunteer prisoners.
For now...
Until that changes, going to prison for dodging the draft remains to be one of the ways to avoid becoming a murder.
I'd consider the play to be get drafted, go AWOL, personally.
Easier to say than do, of course.
I don't know much about Russian prisons, but I might take my chances on the battlefield and try escaping.
That is, unless you have family, in which case I wouldn't put it past them to force compliance by threatening your family. I would probably serve "loyally" if not doing so meant my family would be thrown in torture prison for life or killed.
Not even Ukrainian sources mention anything about torture of relatives, so I'm pretty sure this is just your fantasy.
Even if it isn't torture, just the idea of them being punished could easily be enough to convince people. I would honestly be surprised if there are no consequences to the families of Russian traitors
You're free to find sources confirming your guesses. Until then, they remain guesses only.
Nah, more than 10 for sure. There's anti police slurs coming from as early as the 80-90s, like "Musora" which is a plural form of "trash"
Musora date back to 1910. It was subdivision name and became great pun.
Aaah, ok. I thought it came from the 80-90s because of gangs and shit
There's a reason they've been trying to avoid drafting soldiers from Moscow/major metro areas. They're intentionally pulling more people from the ethnic minority rural regions. Problem is, they're running out of soldiers...
They always send the poor and minorities to die while the Muscovites plunder
Not just in Moscow, Vatnik.
Can't imagine why...
oh no russian solders get spat upon in their home land. anyway...
The day we all start to see military with disgust it's the day wars will stop
Even the Ukraine defenders?
If it really is “we all” who come to this realization, there won’t be anything to defend Ukraine against.
You can defend yourself without wearing a government patch
Keep judging from your ivory tower
War won't ever stop. It's part of the human condition. Some persons and groups of people will always feel entitled to what others have on the basis of relative standing as viewed from thier viewpoint.
War is fueled by a system that has nothing human about it. Just like dogs humans are not violent by nature, they become mad when they are put in a corner. These days the average person would never hurt someone else directly and that's why governments spend billions on propaganda to turn everyone against each other
Dogs most certainly are violent by nature. You are explicitly talking about DOMESTICATED dogs which are man made and not nature
You can also upset a dog without putting it in a corner. Approach a dog and it’s pup or a dog approaching another dog that is eating, violence easily can erupt both with strange dogs and known ones.
You’re projecting your perception of your own humanity onto all dogs and it’s not working for you or your point.
I do agree that the people are purposefully pitted against each other but that is internal to nations and doesn’t explain international war. Do you think Ukraine and the Russians pitted their peoples against each other to start this war? Or did Russian invade and cause it all by themselves?
Are they? I don't recall teaching my dog not to bite people, they just were treated good and don't do it
is this a dogwhistle (pun intended) for eugenics in the human race, the way that we have selectively bred dogs to meet compatibility criteria?
so... just to clarify. you realize that violence is part of who we've always been? The reason our hands can make a decent fist at all is to be used as clubs.
weapons are among the first, if not the first, forms of technology ever developed in prehistory. And probably not even by homo sapiens. We've never been not-violent. and you can see this in other primates like baboons and chimps and gorillas, which absolutely conduct their version of warfare.
And like humans, dogs are also aggressive by nature. they are largely taught not to be as puppies. but left to their own understandings, they will be aggressive.
Do you realize that a fist can be used to break a coconut and not smash someone head? Humans evolved to be smart not to be violent
You…. Ever try to, uh, smash a coconut with your fist?
Curious how that went.
“We evolved to be smart!”
And most of the first tools we created are absolutely classified as “weapons”
Literally the first widespread tool in human history was a fucking handaxe.
Second was a spear.
Dude is just talking pure nonsense.
Tools were made to do work. Monkey use rocks to break nuts
Chimps use clubs to fish as well as in fighting other chimps.
Using a rock might be “tool use” but it’s not “tool manufacture” for that they’d have to substantially modify the rock (say by flaking off chips to form an edge, or shaping a stick into a cudgel.) among humans the first tools made we’re probably cudgels- used for fighting (both other people and animals. Aka, a weapon.) and possibly stone anvils and axes.
(Hand axes would have been more tool than weapon until fitted onto a haft. Then it would be either a spear or an ax.)
Cudgel is as made as regular rock. Just branch picked up from ground. Earliest axes that are basically sharpened stones and as weapon are about as useful as not sharpened stone, but provide ability to shape wood.
You should try to smash one with your head at last it would become useful for something
Humans are absolutely naturally violent. They're naturally selfish, violent monsters. We teach our kids to not be that way from a very young age (prior to 1 years old, generally) and reinforce it constantly and yet it is still very common to see children/young adults acting out violently.
It's absurd to me that anyone could assume humans are not naturally violent.
Just because you are a monster don't assume everyone else is
Seriously?
Someone mentioned that humans have (historically) had a tendency towards violence, and your only take from that was to call them a monster? Are you just projecting, or what happened there?
Gee, i guess we'd better tell all of the families of murdered people that their loved ones weren't actually murdered. You know, since you seem to think that humans don't have a natural capacity for violence, so there must have been some other reason (doubt it). We should also tell the starving people that it's not greed keeping them hungry, it's magic.
It's not like we're mammals or anything. We're TOTALLY immune to the same things that plague almost every species on this planet. Totally.
relevant rant.
I don't particularly like Rossman... but I do like that rant.
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I really don't like "it's part of the human condition", "it is human's nature" and other BS. I recommend you to go out and watch how kids play. Suddenly you will see opposite of fairy tale told by militant pensioners.
yeah, so anyone whose ever watched a couple toddlers playing together knows they have to be taught to share. When they're learning, they're absolutely violent little monsters. if you google all the advice given for how to deal with aggressive toddlers in day care... you'll see that your little angels... really aren't.
I said about kids that play outside, most kids who play outside aren't toddlers, but you decided to mention them. Well, counterclaim: toddlers chew everything just because, toddlers smash everything just because and toddlers yell all the time just because. It is not their intention to hurt another toddler.
If this is how you think, it tells a lot about your ethics.
I'm pointing at toddlers because they haven't mastered the self control necessary to conceal and manage their aggression. In that regard, toddlers are the most honest appraisal of our instinctual inclination. Being not-aggressive is a learned behavior. the concept of "playing nice" is a learned behavior... children have to be taught how to play nice. they have to be taught what is fair, and to regulate their impulses. but those impulses remain there, and sometimes come back out as adults. Which... is kinda why there's a shit load of violence in the world. and always has been.
So it is their instinct is to lick electronics and destroy it? Chew things and destroy? Smash things and destroy? Well, ok, licking, chewing and smashing kinda is their instinct, but not smashing. Since you mentioned learning, all of this is learning. Basically when they are presented with new thing, their instinct is to learn it. "How it feels? Is it warm? Does it taste good? Can I eat it? What's inside?". Abstract agression is a mean to get attention, that also learned. "Wanted to eat, but thing that was held is not eadible, but after banging it I was fed? Do it again". Same about directed agression towards peers and mentioned by you learning to share: "after moving arm towards that thingy I was awarded with toy? Do it again".
Yes and they also kids(that are "old" enough to talk) have much better sense of fairness than most adults do. Watch how THEY(kids who can communicate) play.
Yes. In yong age it's called being silly, when they get older it's called learning, later called studying and when they are adults they call it doing scientific research.
When adults are violent, they are not acting as kids. It is kids when violent are acting as adults.
What I will say you can use as argument too, but it hasn't. Just century ago world was much, MUCH more violent.
ok
Didn't stop Vietnam and those vets still get treated like shit
My bad attempt to translate ELYSIUM - Tanks.
https://youtu.be/iymFIg_4zYE I'll try to translate entire song
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Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
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Tried as close to original as possible:
Vietnam comes to mind
Or Afganistan
I feel like Russia doesn't even deserve an armed force. Someone else just take over. Someone besides China, since not one of their government employees deserves to even breathe.
Just be good people. Don't make the rest of the world wish you'd all suddenly die in an "accident".
That wouldn't work long term. If another country comes in and controls the security of Russia, then any issues Russian people have could be easily blamed on the "oppressors". And that would be used to bring back the totalitarian regime that is currently in charge.
I know Japan went through this, but that's a whole different culture. It won't work in Russia because they're always looking for a savior. Lenin "saved" them from the Empire which led to 80 or so years of Communist oppression. Then Gorbachev tried to "save" them from that. Yeltsin "saved" them from the Soviet remains. Putin "saved" them from the post Soviet collapse poverty. Or at least he said he would do it.
I was born in Russia and remember as a little kid going with my grandma to vote for Putin's "White Bear" party. People really thought he would save them from the evil West and all of the things that US were allegedly doing to us.
I hope that in this day and age people are able to overcome the internal propaganda of their countries, but seeing how Putin is planning to cut Russia off from the internet, and understanding how effective language barriers still are, I fear that it will become a North Korea situation. It's so fucking sad.
As a Russian which do you think was the best (or least bad) period for the people?
It's hard to say. I was born in the early 90s and my family was just scraping by. The generation that lived through WW2 were generally pro USSR. As long as you were following the party line, supporting everything the communist party was promoting, and didn't ask any questions, then you were given all of your basic necessities. And, when a country is in a total war where the enemy is trying to indiscriminately capture all of your land and take forceful control of all of the people, then this you need a very strict unified force from your people. But once the war was over, the control didn't stop. Any attempt by an individual to increase their own wealth was not only discouraged, but actively punished. For example, I remember reading an old children's book about a little boy that started repairing all of his friends toys, which was good because he was helping the people around him. But then the boy started asking for money from other kids for his work, and the book made it very clear that it was incredibly wrong to do that, and labeled the boy as a "speculator". Also if you had any criticism of the government, you were considered a trator. Everyone knew about the black cars. If a couple of black cars pull up to your neighbors house, you know that you won't see them again. And you'd avoid anyone they were related to like the plague, because it was easy to become guilty by association.
So, starting with people born in the 60s, after Stalin's death, there was more and more animosity towards their government. More and more the dark side of the Union was being publicized. People started to question what was happening around them and I think it's tied to technology. As music cassettes because easy to make at home, people started sharing music that was no longer made by the established artists that were being directly and openly supported by the USSR. Basically, people at the lower class started to find a voice. As the crackdowns increased, so did the push back. At the same time there were invasions into Eastern Europe, after that there were constant insurgencies in the countries that were occupied, and after that a 10 year war in Afghanistan which had about as much public support as Vietnam had in the US, but if you wrote an equivalent "Fortunate Son" in the USSR you'd be arrested for being an "enemy of the people" and put into a labor camp that was not much different from what the Germans had in the 40s.
With more resources being diverted to the military, the Cold War, and everything else outside of our borders, quality of life kept dropping. And the whole time all of this was much worse for countries other then Soviet Russia. Those countries were basically used as resources to be expanded for the good of the Soviet people. So, after a bunch of uprisings and revolutions Soviets started to lose control of the Russian government. I need to brush up on the details at this point, but since we're focusing on quality of life, it was continuing to get worse. Infrastructure continued to collapse. Water was getting turned off regularly, roads were in increasingly bad condition, goods were becoming more and more scares and expensive, and eventually this led to the uprising and collapse in '91.
That's about the time I was born. Since all industry was controlled by the government, and the government was now gone, everything was a mess. There was literally no groceries in stores. Currency was useless. I remember having a bit pile of Soviet coins to play with. People went back to bartering. And during that time, the old politicians, and the mafia, who both controlled what was left of Russian industry used their power to place themselves into the government. Democracy never really happened in Russia. There was a small window in the late 90s and early 2000s where press finally had their freedom, and I remember seeing a lot of content on TV that openly spoke about current events, and people were able to openly talk about any criticisms they had of the government, but that ended after a few years of Putin. I used to watch a lot of TV as a kid and I remember all of the political satire shows disappearing basically overnight. Quality of life never really improved. My parents were divorced, so my mom did the "Russian bride" thing, found an American guy, he moved us to the US sometime around 2005, and I've been here since.
So, I don't know if that answers your question, or if you can read past all of the spelling errors I've made a long the way, but I'd argue that there really hasn't been a "good time". It's more about wasted potential. So many decates of people fighting each other for a better life that never came. There was potential for change in the 90s, but that was lost. I hope that Putin dies and people can actually build a Democracy, but the track record is pretty bad.
My love for my homeland has nothing to do with its history. It's the culture, the food, the old traditions, music, people, art, and beautiful land that miss. But I can't go back. This comment right here would land me in prison.
Thank you for taking the time to write this, it's very sad how bad things have been for the simple Russian people.
There have been articles and statistics showing that Russia had massively improved during the USSR and declined after its fall, and I struggle to find out what is true and what's false due to all the propaganda by both sides, that's mainly why I'm interested to get opinions from actual people. In any case it's criminal for the people to live in constant fear of expressing a disliked opinion and being taken away to labor camps overnight.
The reason that USSR looks good in metrics is because it was a unified nation with clear goals and everyone was forced to contribute towards those goals. And out of necessity the government provided the bare minimums that a person would need to continue to contribute to that whole. But there was absolutely no choice.
So, obviously once that rigid system is torn down, and people no longer have that access to necessities, things get worse. It's just wrong to thing that going back is the right direction to go.
Yeah well they suck dick and they should stop suckin dick.
If they sucked dick instead of going to war, there'd be nothing wrong with that and the whole world would be much better off