Companies that obtain and sell your user information should have to pay you royalties. Agree or disagree?
Privacy concerns are a very popular and valid talking point on Lemmy, so I would like to gather your thoughts and opinions on this. (Apologies if it's already been discussed!)
Would you support this? Would it work or even be viable? (If it could somehow overcome the rabid resistance from these big companies). What are your thoughts?
Personally, I'm getting more and more agitated at the state of this late stage global capitalism, where companies have the gall to ask you to pay or subscribe to their products, while they already make money from you for selling your data. It's been an issue for a long time now, but seems to really be ramping up.
Only I should be able to rent out my personal data to selected companies and they should pay rent monthly to retain that information. I should have termination rights with a 60 day notice.
Yeah let’s offer them a subscription model.
Companies who obtain and sell your user information should be put out of business and have their executives and board go to prison for thousands or millions of counts of stalking.
But you generally literally say "yes, I permit you to use and sell my information"
In instances where that isn't the case, I agree with you, it's stalking.
It's far more nuanced than that. What if the company tells you they are collecting and selling your data and even give you a way to opt out, but it's on page 28 of the Terms and Conditions.
It should be law that companies must have a clear and transparent way to communicate data collection and what they do with said data
In EU this law is called GDPR. And it exists.
Well, this country would be a better place if we were able to adopt a lot of the sensibilities and common sense laws that the EU has. Unfortunately, we're a plutocracy run by corporations for profit and consistently backed by an ignorant and easily susceptible generation of baby boomers that time and time again vote against their own interests.
Do people here responding with “It’s a free service!” not realize paid services sell your data just as much? The ISP you’re using to read this is selling your data.
And the T&C terms are not anywhere near informed consent. They’re just permission to do anything they want with your data. Quit acting like consumer protection laws aren’t needed as long as someone clicked “I agree” to use a service required for modern life. We all know you can click “Cancel” and go live in the forest. We’d rather a third option besides exploitation and going feral.
Also, quit licking boot. You’re killing the jobs of PR people when you shill for corporations for free.
just take a look at T&Cs and privacy disclaimers for auto manufacturers. Mozilla did an analysis and found all of them just stink. Imagine paying $30K for a brand new car, only to get your information sold by the dealership to shady warranty companies. The auto manufacturer selling out your data in perpetuity and listening to everything. Oh and one auto manufacturer is making claims on your sexual activity LOL
Welcome to the unregulated market of big data in the USA
People also say “well did you pay them anything??” to excuse when an ad/data supported business abuses a member. Take Facebook, for instance. I don’t care if we’re “the product” or customers… one way or the other, they make money from people using the site.
Man, NordVPN sells your data to Google, among others!
This is why we can't have good things anymore.
I'm pretty sure ISPs don't do this in the EU. Or, if they do, then they are in for a big hurt.
It all comes down to one thing:
You agreed to the terms and agreements. You don't have to.
But in general.. imo.. it should be absolutely forbidden to sell data and governments should finally do something and stop sleeping.
I’m an ordinary person with an average level of intelligence, and T&Cs are incomprehensible to me thanks to pretentious language often written in all caps. And it’s not me being unusually stupid
This. Its on a lot of languages like this. The less you understand, the better.
This could help
That's a nice idea, and I've contributed to it, as well, but it's got far too little info on it.
The fundamental frustration is that people want to get a thing for free without any cost or inconvenience to them in the slightest.
And like, that's valid - paying for things is annoying - but people generally aren't in the habit of doing things for you for no personal gain. Put another way, it's kinda nuts that, at no direct monetary cost, a person can access a functionally unlimited amount of video and music, can send instantaneous messages to nearly anyone on the planet, can create a personal repository of videos and images and share them with people you know, etc etc. The amount of things you can do in the modern world where the only cost is the mild annoyance of being advertised to is genuinely insane, especially given the massive technical and administrative challenges that come with running a platform like YouTube.
And while I do understand the desire for the option to actually pay money for services instead of data, the sheer fact of the matter is that, given the choice between something costing money and it costing data, 95% of people will choose the free option.
And at the end of the day, most of these things are not actually required to live. Even for services that are functionally necessary today, like email, there are privacy-focused services that provide it. There is simply no world in which a something like Gmail, YouTube, or Instagram exist without bringing in any revenue, because even ignoring the profit required by capitalism, running massive services like that comes with very large costs. The engineers and infrastructure alone cost a fortune, and that fortune has to come from somewhere, whether it be marketing budgets or user fees. We're never going to get services of this nature without paying those costs in one way or another.
We already pay. Every month. I pay $85/mo to access the Internet from home and an additional $90/mo to access it from my phone. Add on my streaming bills and I'm paying roughly $2400/yr already. So yeah, YouTube should be free. Gmail should be free. No ads, no privacy violations, just included in what I'm already paying.
This used to be standard back with AOL and EarthLink. Your email was just included.
...you do understand that you paying Comcast or whoever does not automatically give money to Google, right?
Not to mention, what you're proposing is that the cost of all major internet service be included in your monthly internet bill, so you'd be paying for all of them, even if you don't use them. And you would find this to be an improvement?
In case you're unaware, running a service like YouTube is incredibly costly. The bandwidth costs alone are massive - YouTube is nearly 10% of all internet traffic - not to mention the cost of paying engineers and purchasing the infrastructure needed to support storing, processing, and streaming millions and millions of videos every day. Someone has to pay for that, whether it's you subscribing to YouTube Premium, you watching ads, or your proposal of bundling service fees into your internet bill.
What a baffling lack of basic understanding of how the Internet works
Oh? So my understanding of how Google profits off user data is incorrect? My belief that the ISPs are profit-driven entities is inaccurate?
If the harvest and sale of user data had been made illegal in 1993 would Google have progressed the way it did? Would they be forced to charge a fee for their email and video hosting services? Would that have incentivized them to maybe make a deal with the ISPs to be included with the monthly payments we already make?
What if local government owned and maintained all the existing internet infrastructure? Would we have been able to choose which ISP we preferred all these years rather than essentially having to pick between coax or satellite? Would ISPs then have been incentivized to pick up additional services like email, video, and image hosting in order to gain more customers?
Are we experiencing the best possible version of the internet, or could it be better?
If I go to google, do a search, and click a link they will be tracking all of that with nary a term or condition in sight.
I believe if you completely new (like after deleting cookies) they will make you agree to the terms and agreements before you can use the service.
There's a "Terms" link in the bottom right, though most people will never read it because most people don't actually care.
It makes you agree to the terms on first use. Does it every time you enter private browsing.
I just tried that on Firefox Focus, which is always in private browsing mode, and there was no “accept terms and conditions.”
Totally get this, and the argument that free services can only remain so from selling your data to keep running. But it just seems like such a predatory thing, there was no negotiation in this. It was just inflicted on Internet users within ridiculously lengthy terms and conditions.
I understand the logic of it, but I completely disagree with how we got to this stage. It feels very perverse. And I am in total agreement that something definitely needs to be done- soon.
Absolutely.
Ofc they use the data to make money. But there are not so many rules set to it. It feels like governments slept in this area for the past 20 years and it's ridiculous.
We're so deep in its impossible to really resign from it anymore.
Not just in the initial sale, but for every time my data is used.
They shouldn't be able to obtain data beyond what's strictly necessary for the service, never mind sell it.
People don't understand the value of the data, and there's no good way to put a price on it, honestly. As in, no, just because Reddit or whoever can make 5£$€ a year off me, doesn't mean I'd be ok to sell it for 2£$€.
I understand the ideal here, but I do genuinely wonder, if a heavy amount of data collection is necessary for complex tech services to be provided at no monetary cost, then the obvious consequence of a policy like this will be paywalls. You see that with newspapers, where even the most obnoxious level of advertising generally isn't enough to cover costs.
And will people actually pay money to use something like Google Search, Gmail, or Instagram? Paid e-mail providers that respect privacy already exist, and people generally don't use them, because people don't actually care that much. Is it really appropriate for the government to outlaw a revenue model that people have clearly revealed themselves to prefer to direct user fees?
The surveillance of this scale isn't necessary. I'm not against serving me ads based on the current web page I'm on right now. Or based on the current email or search, since the provider has access to that anyway (unless it's e2e). Or make a profile of me based on a voluntary questionnaire.
Some companies work like that and they survive just fine. It's absolutely not necessary to collect every little bit of detail of my life to serve me ads. It's only the predatory companies that do that, and especially the multi-trillion corporations.
Furthermore, those "free" services in exchange for user data may not even be good. Take Google, how they push everything that serves their needs, even if better alternatives are available (or were, before they were smothered).
I.e. crappy quality of Google search is well documented, Chrome no comment, Drive is pushed so hard that you can't get a Pixel phone with decent storage and most phones don't offer memory cards because Google makes it difficult... Etc.
So yea, I'm totally for limiting the collection of data to the barest minimum. There's literally no downsides to anybody except to the dystopian corporations.
Ed: that's not even mentioning all the dark patterns these corpos use to sign you up, or how you can't opt out or you have no choice because of monopolies. That's not "choosing" or "agreeing", that's extortion.
I don't care about royalties. They should pay a gigantic tax for selling it tho
And I should get to set the price since it's my data in the first place.
yeah honestly the fraction of a cent I'd get negotiated wouldn't make a dent in my life. I'd much rather we as a collective hold companies accountable for selling off our data. Politicians too; they're all trying squeeze us for everything they can, and we consent by being apathetic.
Generally, I personally, disagree. Usually companies do not get your data from the air, they provide people service and often for free in exchange. This is a model which made internet available for masses.
What I agree with - a transparency and control, more or less like GDPR suggests (not like it is usually implemented, though).
Yeah I feel like OP is suggested a world where you pay $5 a month to use Facebook, but you get the premium version for free if you sign off your rights. Maybe not a whole lot would change, except a higher awareness of the business model.
OP wants companies pay them. Regarding pay or watch ad (this is a usual way your data is sold): youtube, spotify and many others offer this option already now.
Imo companies should at least pay for the data used by said ads. Especially the ones that needlessly throw videos at people.
They do - they provide you some service in exchange.
regulations like transparency and user control only work when the ones with the data actually follow the laws.
Everything works only when involved parties (all, not just with the data)follow the laws.
Agreed, if there’s a clear benefit to harvesting my data, like I don’t have to pay for the service then that’s fine. There should be clarity on what data is collected and how it’s used so I can decide if the benefits justify the cost.
There’s a chain of reporting issue. Generally, the site you’re on (outside the social media shitholes) will keep track of some identifier of who you are, and which sites you visited. Then they will share your identifier with an advertising partner to deliver you advertisements. The advertising partner will take your data and pass it off to a data management platform (Hi Oracle!) who will then attempt to link you on that site to literally everything you have ever done. They have deals with Credit card companies, TV vendors, car manufacturers, cell service providers, public databases. That’s where the sketchiness happens. The worst part of it all is that realistically, the advertisers don’t care about all that data. They almost always want some very basic demographic data that fits in the old Nielsen family demographic data: It doesn’t make any sense to advertise a Lexus or investment advice to someone making minimum wage. Politicians want to know who likely voters are. Macy’s wants to advertise at people who shop at malls. They also want “Lives within 50 miles of my business”
The biggest worry is that the data platforms collect a lot of exact data that is not used except for super suspect Cambridge Analytica level targeted political advertising, and to add to it: They are reallllllly crappy at their jobs. I work in AdTech, so I can poke around at what they think I am and I’ve had things from “Salad Dressing lover” to being both unemployed and making $1 million/year in the same profile.
That's a good point, they shouldn't just be allowed to say "we're improving our product with ur info lol" and call it a day. How? Like our tax money in my country, I heard the Aussies get a breakdown of where the money is going. Where's my breakdown? Where's the breakdown for the techno spying? Lack of info seems to be the business model with both of these systems, lol.
There are plenty of instances of companies collecting your data either without you knowing or without you knowing you can opt out of collection. There needs to be a set standard provided and adhered to in regards to collecting personal data.
Agree. And the actual attempt is called GDPR and CCo.
However, one can put in other direction as well: similar "standards" and laws against people who try to use a service without paying for it neither watching ad nor paying money.
I agree. I’ve always thought it was weird that companies can sell our personal data including health data without our consent most of the times. And we can’t get any money in return for the value our data generates. If they said, yeah you make $1 couple of hours of you using your phone, I’d probably be a little more keen, but I also value privacy lol
Edit: also just the amount of data collected and how much they can figure out about anyone is fucking terrifying. I like my privacy not because I have something to hide, but because no one would want a stalker who knows everything about you
Oh, you didn't read our 30 page 8 font legalese terms of service saying we can do what we want with the data we need to collect to provide you with this thing.
I'd put /s but it is not sarcasm. The Mozilla foundation privacy not included and Terms Of Service;Didn't Read have good info as who collects what.
While I definitely would like better transparency on data collection practices, I don't think that solves the fundamental frustration that people want to use a costly service without paying anything. The fact of the matter is that I think, for most people at least, if you transparently tell them "We're going to collect a bunch of data in order to serve you targeted advertisements, and in exchange, you get to use Instagram for free", most people will find that to be a fine deal, or at least better than paying money or not using the service at all.
Most of the time they give you a "free" product in return like Gmail or 15GB of "free" space.
I'd prefer it if they simply weren't allowed to collect it in the first place.
And I don't think it would be viable, because no fucking way am I giving these parasites any banking information so they could pay me a pittance of what they get. They'd fucking sell that too!
It should be a requirement that you can see your own profile at any time, see everything they know about you, be able to edit it (including clearing it, and not with a billion checkboxes either), and lock it to prevent further modification and addition by themselves.
Well, partial good news for you, friend! (Assuming you're in the US)
California's new CPRA law went into effect at the start of the year. As part of that law, CA residents can request to see their data, be deleted or edit it. Since it's hard to validate whether someone is actually a resident or not, most places just allow everyone to do those things now.
But there are some big caveats. One is that getting access to your data can be complicated. There's a risk of, e.g. an evil-ex requesting your info in order to stalk you, so some places will just confirm or deny the info you send. "Do you have my name? How about this email address?", etc, but you can't say "Gimme everything for ".
You can ask for all your personal data to be deleted. But the law says to delete everything... Which includes the fact that you made such a request, so the next time data about you arrives, the company has no record to indicate they should not collect it.
It's a start.
If you use a company's service without agreeing to pay them with money, you likely agreed to share your information with no strings attached. Problem there being once that's done, your information is liable to be resold ad infinitum with no legal protection for you. What should happen is legislation that federally declares that agreement null and void, and put in its place nationwide law that dictates what companies and citizens can and can't do with intellectual property as it pertains to someone's personal information.
It would be to be a completely mutual agreement where all parties understand all the details and implications. It will probably never happen so it makes way more sense to make data harvesting and selling of user data illegal.
On the contrary, given that people very clearly do want free access to very costly services, I think the most important thing that can be done is mandating transparency and some level of consumer control over data. Laws like the GDPR are a massive step in the right direction.
How much do you think your data is actually worth? Let's take Google for example, their ad revenue in 2022 was ~$224B and they have 4.3B monthly active users. That's only $52 per user, but if you take into account their operating expenses of $208B that drops down to $3.7 per user.
But that's not all, they don't make their revenue by "selling your data", that's a common misconception. They make revenue by selling targeted advertisements on their systems, and targeted advertising is only useful if you actually click the ads and purchase the products.
Now the correlation between your interests might be useful in aggregate, but for a single person this correlation data rounds down to a big fat zero, and since Lemmy users pride themselves in ad blockers and avoiding online advertisements I'm going to say that the value you personally add to Google's revenue is a big fat zero.
So should Google cut you a check for ~$0 per year? Honestly this conversation is a waste of time.
Yes
I wonder what the side effects of this would be.. There would suddenly be incentive for people to shape their lives in ways that would make them more attractive to advertisers, at least on paper.
I wonder if we would see improvementw to society at a macro level if people start making changes to be the types that are paid more for their data.
"Bro, we hitting the bar tonight?"
"Hell yeah! I'm three beers away from extra heavy drinker status this month. Let's get that AB-Inbev cash!!"
(Sounds of chest bumping)
Agree
Disagree. Privacy should be the default.
Collecting information should be legal only in so far as it supports the customer's use of a product/service. E.g. It's nice if my doctor can keep a medical history on file, or my mechanic can do the same for my car.
Selling/disclosing information to third parties should be illegal.
It depends, at the very least there should be more transparency about what is being shared with who. But what do you do in situations where they’re providing some sort of “free” service, like Gmail or something? I feel like there’s some sort if trade-off happening there, but we should be fully informed about what is that’s being given about us.
Y'know, if I could use gmail and pay a few bucks to do it (and not be tracked everywhere without a way to opt out) I would do it. Likewise for any social media that makes its money by trading my privacy for it, I would pay them for the service of being a conduit by which I can keep track of friends and family if it meant I wouldn't be followed everywhere by ads. As for how ad revenue funds so much of the useful content online, it's depressing as hell to see that political propaganda is free while informative media is sequestered behind paywalls. I'm old enough to remember when the news was a prestige business and didn't have to turn a profit
The fact that platforms like Meta give advertisers (or propagandists) the ability to target their messaging to people that fit a detailed profile, tho, ensures that our politics can now be cheaply and profitably flooded with shit, and that in real ways is a threat to democracy, I think.
You know that there are paid email services that aren't Gmail, right?
Proton isn't a bad choice for this. They have paid and free tiers which can get you Google-like features without giving your data to an advertising company.
Titan-mail/flockmail is good for people wanting a business email not run by big G or MS.
It's a great idea and in a way it's already being done with those survey companies and stuff.
The thing is, what you propose needs to be backed by strong privacy laws. Consumer protections and legislation that mandates the deletion of data once the need for it expires. Basically, none of this should happen without a EU style GDPR in the respective country.
How is value determined? There are many different usage scenarios each of different values.
I would love to receive payment (or the ability to opt out entirely) but imagine that it will be similar to the Holywood scenario where a film makes billions but "accounting" eats 99% of what is due.
If they had my consent, then yes, i would agree.
But i would like there to be an option to opt out of sharing my data.
There is. That option is not using their services.
I'm not a big fan of the data selling, or the creepy collection methods, but expecting everything to be free without ads or data collection is unreasonable.
How much would you be willing to pay for each "free" online service you use if they offered a monetary alternative to data collection? Probably not enough to keep them in business for very long.
Absolutely. I think the difficulties in ensuring the data owner gets paid properly highlight the fact that gathering this data needs to be approved by the data owner and can't just be done willy nilly. Data is a valuable resource, although in the most part intangible. It's this intangibility that has given data hearders the impression its up for grabs. The whole system needs strick rules to protect people's data wealth and not to mention privacy.
Hm. Not a bad idea actually. Just a percentage of the revenues. It would never be any kind of significant income stream for any of us, but it would basically torpedo their entire business model, which relies on being very low-cost to remain profitable.
Gonna have to either outmaneuver or out-punch Amazon, google and Zuckerberg all together, though, in addition to the whole slew of medium and bit players in the game.
I think you'd need nothing shy of a global democratic movement to have much of a shot at any long-term results from this strategy. Gonna make Arab Spring and Occupy Wall Street look like casual block parties.
"By clicking here you agree to the terms of service [which expressly state that in exchange for receiving the service without charge or at discount rate, you wave any rights to royalties on any personal information collected]" or something to that effect.
As long as users willingly participate, the only way to solve this problem is to educate users about the dangers. It's a very similar situation as cigarettes. Banning cigarettes doesn't work because then users will just willingly circumvent the ban, possibly turning to black or grey markets.
I want you to go to whatever search engine you use and search "how long does it take to read terms and conditions" so you can see that reading them would take days.
Consumer: I like your product. Can I use it?
Company: Sure thing! It's free but we're going to take your data and sell it.
Consumer: Okay!
. . . Consumer: Hey, you're selling that data I told you you could sell as long as I can use your product for free! You should give me commission.
Me: Don't use things that sell your data. Start by deleting the apps from your phone in favor of the web version. Make sure to decline allowing websites and services to track your usage. It's not perfect, but it's a start.
What should be even more concerning at the moment is the Mozilla report that came out reporting that every car company is now extracting more of your personal information than TikTok or Facebook. https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/blog/privacy-nightmare-on-wheels-every-car-brand-reviewed-by-mozilla-including-ford-volkswagen-and-toyota-flunks-privacy-test/
You act as if it is actually feasible or reasonable to choose not to uae these services, when it, in fact, would be a severe handicap in day-to-day life
Do you have an example?
To start with, an ISP. Most of them collect user data. Many services, such as banking, are unavailable or restricted over VPN (assuming you find one that doesn't also collect your data).
Next, a smartphone. You're limited to iOS or android, unless you have the option to root your device (which is a hassle), and both are basically loaded with spyware.
Your debit/credit card. Many providers will collect and monetize data regarding your purchases.
Your car (if newer than about 2010) or your public transit provider.
Need I go on? Try living without just one of these things.
I'm talking about deleting the FREE Facebook app from your phone and you're talking about PAID ISPs. You're not wrong but you've changed the conversation to ignore my point...
How is deleting FREE apps from your phone and declining to allow websites to track you not a good start and how would this handicap your day-to-day life? My point is that if you're suing something for free, you are the product. This needs to be at the forefront of people's minds and they need to be made aware of the ramifications of choosing to use these FREE services.
Granted, I should have been more clear and said "Don't use FREE things that sell your data".
Yeah - there's a lot to be concerned about. Hell yes there's a huge concern about a PAID service also harvesting your data.
Let's START by deleting apps off our phones because this is what we currently have the most control over and they're the one's harvesting the most kinds of data to sell to brokers.
Okay, for an exact example. I have a work email via microsoft 365. Because I choose to not have the outlook app installed on any of my devices I do not get notified when I have unread mail.
Thus, I need to go through the abysmal web app login several times per day (because it automatically logs me out), and click through nagging pop ups imploring me to install the app in order to confirm whether I have any pending mail.
What privacy concerns are there with the Outlook app?
I don't know, I didn't read the entire 174 page privacy statement. In this case, I just assume that they exist and that I do not want their app installed on my phone, especially considering the permissions it wants.
try navigating along distance trip you've never done before without google/apple/bing maps. they don't publish hard copy street directorys anymore where I am
For iOS,
Google Maps Third-Party Advertising:
Location: Coarse Location
Search History: Search History
Browsing History: Browsing History
Identifiers: User ID
Usage Data: Advertising Data
Other Data: Other Data Types
Apple Maps Third-Party Advertising: N/A
There’s actually a number of mapping apps that are better than Google or Apple maps. Mapquest looks pretty good.
So, it seems more so the case that you’re acting as if there are no other choices when in fact there are.
Only if you pay money to use their product yourself.