How would you feel about awards on lemmy?
Fact is, the Lemmy ecosystem needs money to handle the growing server reqirements as more people migrate as well as the development cost of new features (I know Lemmy is OSS but the devs should still get some compensation for their effort).
Seeing how much some reddit users love awards so much that they cant stop giving money to Reddit to award posts protesting the api change, this could be a great way for users to voluntary support the ecosystem. It can be easily ignored by users not caring about them (clients could even add an option to hide them), but users liking the feature can go wild and this time the money goes to volunteers keeping this alive instead of greedy admins, power mods and investors.
Though there would be some big organization questions attached: attached:
- Which server handles the payment? A centralized one, the one where the post was made or the one where the user giving the award account was created.
- How will the money be shared between the Devs and the individual instances in a way that is fair but cant be abused easily.
I think it's a distraction from the actual interactions. Same way karma is.
I'm all for supporting instances and open source developers, but any kind of reward for a donation creates wrong incentives. Donation is called a donation because it's a gift without expecting something in return.
I fully agree with you, karma "whoring" is a serious problem on reddit, awards could lead to the same behavior here if implemented.
Donations are the best way to support the platform, if you want to be "visible" as donator, opencollective allows you to post a message about it, there's also a sort of top donators page, that's more than enough in my opinion.
I can understand the mindset, but I worry most people don't think like this.
The thing is, that small rewards for "donations" will likely make the people much more willing to spend money in the first place. Even if it's as small as a sticker on someone else's post that costs the servers involved like a handful of API calls. But when a 1€ award is 3x as popular as the 1€ donation, it will greatly increase the funds available to the instance and, hence better servers, more features etc
There is a reason many YouTubers sell discord roles. Many people are willing to spend 5€/month for a stupid discord rank, so I don't see why it's wrong to profit of people willing to buy awards
If you prefer direct donation, having something like awards won't stop you but if someone wants to buy that overpriced sticker, they can as well.
Could we like, not immediately talk about monetisation 1 month after leaving reddit? If you want to support your instance host, you can ask for a way to donate.
The hard truth is that long term, we likely need another way besides donations to keep the ecosystem alive.
I would like to see some numbers first. Donations work fine for mastodon.
Edit : here are mastodon.world financials https://blog.mastodon.world/
Donations seem to work fine for Wikipedia as well. Same with internet archive. We should not underestimate the willingness of people to support a good cause.
It's almost like people are willing to spend money for a good cause, when they are not constantly being pressured and scammed into it.
Maybe something like signals donator badge would be a better solution
I would love to see a social media network run under this model, and I think lemmy, kbin, etc are great candidates for that. The decentralized nature of the fediverse allows costs and user load to get spread out to other instances, vs. something centralized which concentrates all that on one org/person. I feel that makes a donation only system much more attainable
This really needs to be higher.
Running a Mastodon or Lemmy server is surprisingly cheap. With some specific tweaks and rules (esp. hosting images and video elsewhere), it can get even cheaper.
If your only goal is to break even, then it's amazingly easy. Roughly 1 of every 20 users contributing $1/month. Adjust the numbers as you see fit.
Or a single, non-datamined ad at the top of the page.
Looks like donations work surprisingly well with the current userbase and current expenses. The projects on opencolective are doing quite well.
Lets just hope this stays that way for a while.
I doubt its sustainable that way forever though if more reddit users and subreddits migrate. So if donations arent enough anymore in the future, I hope they choose something like awards instead of flooding the site with ads, analytics or paywals.
So when scaling up
You expect that : costs per user rise and donations per user drop?
I expect that: costs per user drop, donations per user stay the same, and external subsidies rise.
Basically yes, but I also assume the cost per users drops/stays the same
I think the next ppl joining are mostly teens who dont consider donating,but would consider occasionally buying something like awards
I doubt external subsidies can cover the missing donations.
Edit: Also I assume ppl in their early 20s are more likely to buy awards than donate.
And even then there could be donated vs award servers.
I prefer to focus on the donated ones.
It was a bit mean/dishonest from me to frame costs for you.
my guess of dounations just does not match yours.
I assume you that awards are optional for each server.
How would you determine if awards are enabled? The server of the community or the server where the account was created?
You do not, awards do not propogate to other servers.
I'm anti awards and status. donations on feel good works good enough to cover the expenses.
Or maybe some people just can't imagine how this could work without being centered around money.
Lemmy has been around for years. New instances are popping up as new users come in. So far, I haven't seen an instance suffering from lack of funds, but others being funded for months ahead, some even donating excess funds to Lemmy devs.
All while topics like these pop up every other day. For me, it looks like catastrophization. Seeking solutions for problems which do not exist (yet? Not even sure about that).
I dont expect a decentralised platform to be profitable and also think donations are better than in-app purchases.
But I dont want big instances to suddenly turn off because they cant afford it anymore or the development being behind so much we loose users to missing features.
Looking at the donation pages of lemmy instances there are enough donations for now but it is good to have a plan B for in case we get flooded by users not willing to donate so this platform survives long term. That plan B should be as least Invasive as possible,so no ads,analytics or paywall. Thats why I suggested something that is completely cosmetic.
I think a good start before all of that would be for struggling instances to tell their user base that they are struggling.
Not going to lie, awards like that would probably make me start looking for another new platform again. I don't want that part of reddit, personally. I want comments that are there to be there, not comments that are only there to get the most positive feedback. For me, doing this would take lemmy further away from being an open forum, and move it closer towards being a lame popularity contest. I can only see the same jokes so many times.
Can we leave the karma system and awards with Reddit? Allowing voting in comment sections for pseudo-moderation by the users is good, but when it turns into a scoring system the conversation devolves into a competition to see who can craft the most palatable opinion to get the most imaginary internet points.
Despite all my thoughtful and helpful comments I made in my 11 years on reddit, you know what my top comment was?
47k updoots, and 27 awards.
This right here.
I used to (a very, very, very long time ago) contribute on StackOverflow. How much? I haven't even logged in for over 7 years (and didn't contribute a good two years before that) and my account is still in the top 0.71% overall.
Let me tell you how I racked up that score.
I monitored the site in off-hours (easy to do with my time zone). I found new questions for the most popular programming language on the site (back then this being Java). I then did what the asker should have done: I Googled. I then wrote an answer (a correct answer: this is important) and got first-responder points.
And here's the funny thing: I don't program in Java. I hate the language. I know enough Java programming to be dangerous. VERY dangerous. But 18% of my points came from answering Java questions. A further 15% came from answering C++ questions which is at least a language I know ... but also despise and won't work with any longer.
This is how easy it is to game fantasy Internet points: whether "karma" or "gold" or whatever you like. And if you start providing these fantasy Internet points you're going to start attracting people for whom high numbers of them are important and they will do what I did to the detriment of the ecosystem. (I mean at least in my case my answers were right. Disingenuous that I of all people answered them, but at least correct. This is not the case for all points whores.)
I don't want the comments section to look like the inner cabinet of the North Korean army
I like this comment. Let me award you the flaming golden sun of glory medal of the people.
I never cared for them on Reddit and used third party tools to remove or hide them.
I don't like that they can be used to shop visibility.
I would like that it gives an opportunity to fund instances but I would hope we could discover another way to do this.
You've been awarded lemmy gold!
“Thank you, kind stranger”
Edit: Wow, I didn't expect this to take off like this. Thanks for all the upvotes! xD
Edit 2: I can't believe I'm getting so many updates, thank you everyone!!!!!
please no!! reddit looked like las vegas with that award system. terrible idea!
I'm really not looking for a Reddit replica. And um, being rewarded for a good comment isn't really something I need. Or anyone needs. I think getting a cookie for a good comment can be left behind
Edit to add - I should have read the rest of the post more carefully, but I stand by my initial sentiment. Money needs to be funneled into those working hard on this, but I don't know, I don't want more and more Reddit features coming out
this
Edit: thank you for the gold, kind dear gentlesir or gentlemadame.
Edit2: wow I never expected to wake up to so many awards, who'd knew my most updooted comment would be about this?
Eew please god no.
I pass. Gamifying social interactions leads to abuse and lowers the quality of posts, comments, reports, etc. It's a streamlined path to enshittification.
Only user-provided 🏅🐭 awards here, at most.
Even "user-provided awards" should be kept out. It provides nothing substantial to the conversation.
It's like saying "This 👆", "I agree", or "Take my upvote!", all of which can be expressed by simply voting on the comment, which actually has an impact.
Fully agreed. That's why I said "at most" because that's the worst I'd tolerate, but I still think upvoting is already enough.
Just donate if you want to support your server.
Awards are special actions reserved for people who pay, that don't improve the platform anyway. It's enshittification.
It baffles me how people seem fixated on the gamification of a discussion and payment system, as if somehow we're not adults who can see that the servers cost money, they provide us value, and we should help defray the costs (directly, through donations/payments). Clear/transparent information on instance costs and available funding is all we really need. For the instance owners it would be nice to have some built in code to provide this as a common location so they can disseminate the info with as little additional effort as possible, ideally with hooks to several payment systems they can connect - esp given the global nature of the platform.
Because, sadly, it works. Humans are social animals and gaining and displaying status is hard wired into us. You might not be interested in status in this way (but there are likely others just as irrational that you do), but enough people are such that this would likely generate a lot more money than just donations.
Appealing to and reinforcing toxic aspects human nature is always a shitty argument. Whatever we're trying to do here let's not be regressive
I really wish this was how humans worked.
But then I remember people will regularly drive on state-maintained roads to their government subsidized free public healthcare, get treated the same day and then go home and write an angry internet post about how we have to cut taxes.
The growing server requirements..
I think like 99% of people picked accounts on the top 10 servers, and there are hundreds of more servers out there that have only a few users. Why do you all flock to the same server (Lemmy.world in particular) and then go "shit this is getting expensive guys". :)
Fediverse. Federated. Not Centralized. Not Reddit.
This technology supports speeding out, so many people (instance admins) share the costs.
And the cost of storage? I get that the load is balanced, in a sense, but it still seems as though there will be significant costs if each server is going to keep all the posts that have been federated to. And the traffic itself just to remain in sync could also be fairly dramatic if we get to the size of Reddit. Unless I’m missing something about the technology, which could very well be true.
I picked lemmy.world because my mastodon account is on mastodon.world and the admin has been good there. And because browsing and subscribing to communities off-instance is a huge PITA.
I am more for going on with donations, with some kind of useless leader board for volunteering activities, to introduce some kind of "safe" and fun gamification.
I have no idea what this could be, I am not very good in creating games
Absolutely, use the Wikipedia model, ask for donations with a target to cover cost.
With an option for ongoing monthly donations (it’s membership, of sorts). I support a few indie spaces this way and really like it.
Yes that would absolutely make sense too.
I don't want to see award speeches here on Lemmy. For example: OMG! THANK YOU FOR THE GOLD KIND STRANGER!!!!1111
I agree.
EDIT: WOW 1 LIKE??? THANK YOU STRANGER I'VE NEVER GOTTEN THIS MANY LIKES BEFORE!1!!1
Please no rewards. This is not reddit. I think a donation system would be much better way to go about it.
Let the content and conversations just happen. It's more organic that way.
Why don't server admins open OpenCollective accounts or something similar. It seems to work on Mastodon. I would be willing to pitch in to help finance the instance I'm on.
Your instance admin has https://www.buymeacoffee.com/tedvdb
You can verify the link here: https://feddit.nl/u/tedvdb
Some at least do. The Lemmy backend devs have an Open Collective page and so does the Lemmy.world admin.
Can't we just stick with normal donations instead of turning this place into a sea of rainbow vomit.
I hate the idea very much. Thanks for asking.
No awards please
Could be a good way to fund servers, but I'm not sure how they can make it not sketchy as fuck. No way I'm trusting payment info to some random dudes server.
Wouldn't mind having a safe option to throw a dollar or 2 to a favorite server and get a nice shiny badge on the profile.
I don’t believe that awards should exist on comments or posts, but i do want the devs to gain some money off of this.
The best choice would probably be for them to set up ways to donate to them in my opinion .
The thing is, nobody donates. But they love their lucky charms. It's just a dark pattern.
Who knows what’ll happen if they actually do implement something like it
Lemmy core devs are actually employed full time to work on lemmy.
What’s funding their salaries? Just donations?
See this post. The work is sponsored by the NLnet Foundation
I've never wanted anything less in my life.
I have never used it on reddit. I have always found them useless
I used them a couple of times, I like them; I use them when the post I REALLY like doesn't have much upvotes. Like when I see post with 24 upvotes that deserves 400+ I give it gold, so the user will still feel happy.
Disclaimer though, I received all my points from winning a big sub contest, I didn't ever pay for them.
I don't love the awards from Reddit, but I would like to see something like this (unpopular opinion, I know). Instances need funding.
I don't care about what the awards are themselves, I care about the way the funding works. I would love to see the funds split in a two tiered system.
Here is a general example of my idea. When a award is purchased it gets split into two pots. One pot is a general pot that gets disbursed to those running the instances based on whatever metrics and intervals agreed upon. The other part gets assigned to the reward itself. So in this example let's say an award costs one dollar. 90 cents would go to the pool to be split, the other 10 cents would be tied to the award. So if you award a post on an instance it goes specifically to that instance itself. Instances could even set a percent split with community moderators of the 10 cents. That way you could fund moderators (if that ever becomes needed)
You could even split part of the award reward with the commentor assigned to it... but that puts a weird feeling in my gut and I feel like it is a bad idea to monetize the content itself.
There is a lot you could do with this and a lot more would need to be fleshed out, so I am just thinking out loud.
THANKS FOR THE GOLD KIND STRANGER.
I think it's interesting to look into but it might be abusable. The payment system will be so complicated on top of the legal issues that one would need to deal with.
Upvotes are fine for now.
I'll only feel good about awards if they're shitty
I think making likes and dislikes public is bad enough. You can probably guess how that applies to "gold".
On a serious note, I think the best implementation would be like a "trophy case"(like reddit) , where each instance can give any user an award for any reason that they can display in their user page. Doesn't get in the way of discussion, but gives you a sense of pride and accomplishment. (heh)
Unlike reddit, these award should be able to be turned off individually , since you don't want rogue instance admins to give you offensive "awards" for your user page.
You also shouldn't be able to see awards from defederated instances to prevent trolling.
I hadn't thought of this trophy case idea. I like it. I still don't want awards that are in any way desirable. Like, I don't know I was reading Calvin and Hobbes this morning maybe a "noodle incident" type award. If you have a memorable post like the not pooping dude maybe an admin or mod puts that in your trophy case? I don't completely wake up for another hour but I like this train of thought you've put me on
Edit: starting to wake up something about beans
I think the idea is fine but the label of "awards" kinda sucks. Reddit often had them misused (e.g. giving wholesome on non wholesome posts). I like how discord frames it's super reactions and think it would be a better system. Only the name, the way they should act should be largely the same, I don't want animated reactions like discord does.
I'm not opposed to ways for people paying out of their own pocket to host to get some funds to help cover that, but I worry it'll never be well implemented.
I think a good first step would be a default and built in way for server admins to add a small donations banner listing the hosting costs of their instances. That also does have issues though, of course. The person hosting is definitely putting in the most money, but other moderators and admins are contributing labour too.
It's a tough subject, and many solutions would be rife with abuse. Shit sucks.
I agree with @tigr@lemmy.world : Giving the user the power to decide where the money goes to is the best option. This eliminates the need for a centralised account with a system to spread the money, which would definitely lead to a lot of arguments.
The user could select something like 20% lemmy devs, 30% instance of community, 50% instance their created the account on. This way the user can decide who gets their "donation"
I don't see how that's any different than what we have now. I'm donating to the Lemmy devs, lemmy.world, and lemm.ee through their individual donation pages.
Unless your saying there should be a centralized option, but I don't see a reason for that.
How about this: groups of instances hosts get together once a year and host a large fundraiser where they then distribute funds proportional to who needs them and then any left over funds go intk a bank where they wait until servers need further funding.
Everything would be open and logged for auditing just like how things are currently anyway.
Replace "rewards" with "emoji reacts" and "needs money to handle growing server requirements" with "appreciates your donations to help cover hosting costs" and I think you may be on to something.
The way that steam handles paid reactions seems fine to me.
Tying financial incentives to enabling bullshit is how you end up with bullshit-filled spaces.
If online communities are important to you, support online communities. If commercialized doo-dads and thingamajigs are what's important to you, Reddit already exists. You not only can have what you want, but you can see what it leads to.
I think donations by themselves are fine. They don't need to have fancy stuff attached to them.
Here is an example of awards on Kbin.
I'm still just not sure how I feel about Kbin
Also allowing people to see who downvoted (sorry, "Reduced") them can't be a good idea as the site grows and attracts more trolls/unsavoury individuals.
I don't understand your argument, wouldnt transparency in voting EXPOSE trolls? Pretty sure they've already caught some shenanigans that wouldn't have been so obvious without this functionality. So many instances (and even subreddits) just hide the downvote button, with the transparency if you dont like it dont downvote maybe install an extension that always hides the downvote button for just you.
So, the problem is that seeing who downvoted you lets a certain type of person track down and stalk people who disagree with them. Not only could your inbox get filled with "Why'd you downvote me bro?"-messages, it could lead to these people following others around to unrelated comment threads and harassing them as "retaliation".
I take it these people haven't found Kbin in any significant numbers yet and so it hasn't been a problem, but I'd be wary for the future.
Let me ask this question instead. What value does it add to know who downvoted you?
You can block people like that. And you will be able to see that they're "retaliating" against you because of the transparent voting system - you'll be able to say to the admins "look, this guy's done nothing over the past six hours except downvote every comment I've ever written" and if you're on an instance that cares about such things he can be taken care of.
I understand that but those things are added discomfort and hassle. If voting was anonymous, they would not be able to identify me and thus I wouldn't have an insult in my inbox to wince at before blocking the user and I wouldn't have my page full of retaliatory downvotes to report to an admin.
These aren't world ending flaws, but they are the trade-off. The negative downside to public voting. But what is the upside? What is the user level benefit I'm getting that makes tolerating the downside worth it?
Well, one upside is that it lets voting be a thing, since ActivityPub is public by nature.
It should be possible to build bots to detect these voting patterns. Reddit had plenty of user-created bots that helped moderators identify toxic or otherwise undesirable users to ban, something like that could be done in the Fediverse too. It's pretty early yet - there isn't even an API for Kbin as far as I'm aware - but once something like that is in place you might not even notice when your stalker gets caught.
I mean I wouldn't call that an upside in this context since the argument starts from the basic assumption that up/downvotes exist.
If votes by nature have to be public due to necessary operations of the ActivityPub protocol the entire argumentation becomes meaningless.
I still maintain that I prefer making accessing this this information harder rather than easier. Yes, a dedicated user can still spin up their own instance and check, but that added bothersome task is going to be enough to deter a lot of people.
It's kind of like a door lock. You can't stop anyone from getting into your house if they really want to, but locking your front door still reduces the risk of having your possessions stolen due to the added friction.
They do, that's why I said having them public is what lets voting be a thing.
There are instances out there that already hide some aspects of voting, beehaw.org doesn't show downvotes in their interface for example. But I expect that someone who's keen on being a troll or stalker will gravitate towards instances that have that information at their fingertips. Hiding the information from the interface of a particular instance doesn't make the actual data go away and a different instance can show it just fine.
That's what I'm trying to get at though. I understand that voting data will ultimately be accessible to anyone who is dedicated enough (they can spin up their own instance). You yourself seem to see why some instances might want to obfuscate this information seeing as you brought up BeeHaw. You yourself state that trolls and stalkers would like all this information at their fingertips. These are valid arguments for making this data more bothersome to access.
What are the positive benefits that motivates an instance to go in the opposite direction and make everything easily accessible and public? Whats the completion of the sentence "I think it's good that everyone can see who up/downvotes them because ___"?
The only two arguments I've gotten so far is that it might help identify bots/vote manipulation and a more general "it's technically publicly accessible by anyone so might as well just show it to everyone".
It's not just technically publicly available, though. Anyone can go to an instance that displays it (which is basically all of them) and take a look right now.
This is a thoroughly unbottled genie, the only way you're going to get it back inside is if every instance was to agree to hide this information and defederate from any stragglers that don't. It's infeasable at this point. IMO hiding the information on a few individual instances is only going to give a false sense of security.
Then they know the information is out there, and they can use it themselves to spot people who are abusing the system.
And regardless of whether you think it's "good", the information is out there.
This is true for Kbin, but I don't believe I have come across a Lemmy instance that shows you who up/downvoted you. Hell, as far as I know most Lemmy instances hide "karma" too. You have to check these things from the Kbin side (unless you spin up your own Lemmy instance). Which is the reason this whole thread started.
While it will be impossible to prevent those actively seek out this information, most people will still flock to the largest instances. A percentage of those will be inclined to want to abuse voting info. If the big instances obfuscate it, maybe some amount of harassment can be avoided. Even the friction of having to switch accounts to check will be enough to prevent some heat-of-the-moment reactions.
I guess that's the trade-off. Having everything easily and openly accessible makes things easy for trolls, stalkers and harassers; obfuscating it might mislead users into thinking they're anonymous.
Thank you for the answer. I'm still not convinced it's not worth trying to hide it, but that's a very fair and valid stance.
That's true. And regardless of how an instance decides to run it's voting policy, it's an important fact to make the users aware of.
I love this idea of "retaliatory downvotes". People take fantasy Internet points so ridiculously seriously!
Trolls know why they're being downvoted; for reasons I don't understand, they seem to enjoy it.
You probably shouldn't be downvoting people having a good-faith discussion, but if you do, the venn diagram of people having a good-faith discussion and unstable enough to harass someone for downvoting them is probably pretty small. Small enough for the block function to mitigate it.
Flip it around. Anonymous downvotes would let anyone spin up a lemmy instance, fill it with sockpuppet accounts, and downvote everything by hundreds or thousands of downvotes, and it would be impossible for users to know the difference.
You're right, it wouldn't be questions about why the downvote so much as just straight insults probably. I'm too hesitatant to use that sort of language so I didn't represent the type of message properly.
So the primary argument for why public downvotes are beneficial is that it helps prevent spam-infuencing posts and comments? Is this then not more of a problem with bot detection? And just how easy is it really to "just spin up an instance and fill it with sock puppet accounts"?
I don't know that I'd call it the primary argument, just an argument. And containerization makes hosting your own lemmy instance trivial.
Personally, if it makes people a little more judicious about applying a downvote, maybe that's a good thing.
What would you say is the primary argument?
I don't know by what metric I'd even use to quantify that. Why do you need one?
To form an opinion I like to hear arguments from both sides. I can come up with my own arguments as to why public downvotes might be bad (anonymous voting is a cornerstone of democracy, hidden votes makes engagement easier for socially shy individuals, aforementioned harassment), but I have a harder time finding its positives.
This isn't meant to be combative; I have tried thinking about ways I would use this information (apart from reporting bot spam) and none of them would add anything positive to my experience using the platform. If anything it could lead me to be unhealthily obsessed with checking activity for who upvotes and downvotes me. My experience doesn't equate to everyone though, so I'm curious to hear another perspective. I might very well be missing something big.
My question was more along the lines of "why do you need to label any given reason as a 'primary' argument". You've already been given counter-points.
I think that if you're concerned about this, you should seek out an instance that both does not federate downvotes and does not display the downvote button. Then you will be unable to downvote, and you won't see any downvotes from other instances.
But I think downvotes are an important part of how the sorting for a platform such as this operates and it helps deal with spam, off-topic posts and shitposting in serious communities etc.
I'm not against downvotes, I just don't see the benefit to publicly accessible data on who voted for what.
Now? A bit troublesome. Soon enough, as the tooling improves? Trivial.
You don't even need to spin up a Lemmy instance specifically. There's some very small script-driven ActivityPub servers already showing up that can be used for this kind of activity with ease if you've got a minor amount of technical chops. Give it a few months and someone will have turnkeyed an ActivityPub harassment engine.
KBin just shows the data that the ActivityPub protocol sends. Anyone could create their own instance and see all reduces.
I know that, and they could, but an average user isn't going to do that.
I think the ActivityPub protocol should be adjusted so voting is anonymous, but maybe I'm in the minority there.
An average user isn't an unsavoury troll.
I don't see how ActivityPub could be adjusted so voting is anonymous. Not without letting instances just make up whatever vote totals they want with no way to tell that something shady is going on.
(Actually, I can think of one way to do it, but it's very complex and involves blockchains so I wouldn't expect an average user to want that either).
I swear I saw something about it on GitHub but this is all beyond my competencies so I will defer to the experts.
I think it would be desirable if it was anonymous, or at least less easy accessible. But as I said elsewhere, I'm open to change my mind, it's possible I've just missed the value added by it.
Edit: Nevermind, you answered this below.
Is strikeout a thing? Let's see. Edit2: Nope.
~~I'm curious as to what your actual concern is here. Like, what do you imagine will happen?~~
The KBin awards are akin to Stack Overflow's award system, which I don't mind, it's a small fun system on the side. Reddit's award system, on the other hand, can go back to the hell pit whence it came.
I didn't mind the reddit version when there was only one award and it granted the awardee premium benefits for a month. I felt like that was a good balance. Not that I think lemmy needs that kind of system-- at least not yet.
I’d like the idea if they either can’t be purchased, or the purchase goes toward your Instance’s hosting fees
Nothing is free on the internet. Its high time we accept that and choose to consciously and directly support services we use. It's just cleaner that way. It's also the only way to keep the internet free(free as in freedom).
Think of it like donating to Wikipedia - once I was able to give back, I started giving back. Soon, I hope to start contributing to lemmy OSS.
This is not even taking into consideration the practical issues with awards like the amount of dev and effort needed to create and manage a payment and "donation distribution" system.
Much of the awards you see given out on Reddit was free. It was given out I think back when Alien Blue was bought out.
Yes that gave a lot of people a lot of reddit coins, or whatever it is called, used to buy awards. But their reddit gold shold have expired a long time ago.
It didn’t. I used the last of mine on the last dumpster fire AMA.
Free awards are the ones ones spammed on random posts so if awards are added, they should be paid only.
I only gave awards after getting ones that gave me points to give awards, and then gave them either to sad posts or when someone said to someone else, I wish I had an award to give you so take this emoji! (🎖️) so I'd cover for them, as that was appropriate.
This is to say, I suck at awards protocol, and will write fancy comments whether I'm getting awards or not.
I have an idea. Now I thought about it. Lemmy will allow the server owner to create a "paid" community. The name of this community will be like "helpforlemmy.world" or "coffeeforruud". People will pay to be able to subscribe to this community. These communities will be passive and only people who want to help will have sent money by subscribing.
I think we should avoid paywalls as much as possible and if any, only add cosmetic purchases.
tl; dr: if you don't want to see seas of ads, awards are the better choice, in my opinion.
honestly, i would be fine with it. I'm not entirely sure what's the big philosophical deal, donations are harder to get, and I'm not so sure as many people are going to voluntarily go and visit the donations page. on the other hand, if the award option is immediately there within the post, one is much more likely to give it. lemmy can simply not sustain itself on the long run solely on donations, especially considering the mass of media content that may be posted. instances can run on them for now. i would prefer them running on dumb awards than on ads instead, and the mole of ads required to make up for the money needed could be really high we'd get reddit level advertisement. hell nah. also, it incentivizes the user on posting quality content if they see the chance of shiny lemming medals, maybe.
Funny how back in the 90s and 00s I could browse BBs without seeing a sea of ads, or any.
Almost like user run communities don’t actually need to return a profit or recoup costs to be active.
Doesn’t the fact that those sites no longer exist kinda prove they needed to recoup costs to stay active?
They didn't die off due to server costs. They died off because companies built for profit centralized sites and advertised them to get people to go there instead.
Easier for large number of people to congregate at a bar than at Phil's house.
No.
They stopped running because it's been 20-30 years and people moved on after a decade or two.
might be because traffic wasn't as much. Also, i understand accepting and missing communities ran by not meeting ends. But implicitly demanding that may be a little too much. also, i imagine there wasn't nearly as much media traffic in those ages because images took that long to load let alone videos but i wasnt online yet.
Maybe but most of our content today is hosted off site, on YT or Imgur, etc. So that's not a concern for current sites much either.
good point
At least pretend to hold down your skirt geez.. 🤭
huh?
Honestly I think awards are a decent way of determining the quality of a post. If a Reddit post has a lot of awards it's a sign that it is especially helpful/interesting.
So people will aim to make posts of similar quality to get awards as well.
I’d love to see an awards system! It’d be great to select the instance that receives the funds with the default being where their account is registered.
Letting users decide where the money goes to is much better yeah.
I think they should be able to set percentages. See here: https://lemmy.world/comment/1068820
Forget useless awards, we need c̶r̶y̶p̶t̶o̶c̶u̶r̶r̶e̶n̶c̶y̶ tipping abilities baked in here.
Edit: never mind
Yeah, replacing useless rewards with useless crypto. Amazing idea.
yeah, money sucks
Crypto isn't money pal, it's a digital commodity that doesn't have a purpose other than to be traded. There is a reason crypto's value is measured in actual currencies rather than it's purchasing power, as you can't really buy much with it.
Right but creators can exchange it for money to like, pay bills and stuff. Don’t be daft
Then why not just give them money?
Ok, should I write a check? Who do I make it out to? How bout direct deposit: just give me the bank account number. Why is lemmy anti-crypto?
“Why not just give them money?”
Because every way to do it is trackable and cryptocurrency offers privacy-protecting ways to pay people. This should be important to this community. Nobody batted an eyelash opening their wallets to Reddit for coins, awards and nfts, but crypto is the scam? Ok
Well you could always try to give cash ;)
Snarky remarks aside, I'm not saying crypto is inherently a scam (although I do think it is more or less reinventing the wheel). I think it's less efficient than fiat currency at this point since you need to convert your crypto to make much use of it. I can see your point about privacy protection given that transactions and accounts are supposed to be anonymous (although I have some privacy qualms about all transactions being put onto a distributed public ledger), and anonymity can be necessary if you're suffering from persecution. But with anonymity, how do you prove your ownership over your crypto assets should you lose access to your account, or have it stolen? That's a very critical drawback to crypto.
Monero would be the obvious choice of cryptocurrency for this community. No public ledger. Like the lemmyverse here, no currency is powerful until many people use it, so instead of resisting, which simply reinforces the status quo and keeps the companies in control, dive in and help grow the ecosystem, like you’re doing here!
Regarding your last question, I could ask those about cash. Crypto is a lot like cash, and if you lose it you’re kinda screwed. You just need to learn how to keep a hardware wallet safe.
I would hesitate to draw too many parallels between lemmy and crypto. Speech, ideas and social media is one thing, currency and transactions another, and I'm not sure applying the same philosophy to both is necessarily wise. Traditional currencies and banking have had centuries to work out problems; they may not be perfect but I don't see a fundamental need to throw them away and shift massively to crypto. Of course I could be wrong, so I'm not against experimentation, but we do need to experiment prudently and be open to critique :)
True, which is why most people keep their most of their cash in banks: it's more secure there and if anything happens you can always sue the bank if it comes to that. With a hardware wallet, what recourse do you have? Even if you take all the precautions you can, no system is completely foolproof, and as an individual it takes a lot of time and effort to do that yourself.
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It's because there are a lot of crypto entrepreneurs (who have a vested interest in the thing) who talk about it like it's the inevitable future of the economy, which is it's own kind of exaggerating.
I'm not in the US so I don't use Venmo, no.
Fine. I'll say it for you. Blockchain, specifically, is an enormous scam.
I'm sorry, but for me (and I'm not alone in thinking that), cryptocurrency is just a big scam. Also, if you can donate money directly to creators (to pay for bills and stuff), there's no need for any crypto wathever.
OK, thanks
crypto is the beanie babies for this generation. Some people are going to make a lot of money but a vast, vast majority are going to be the proud owners of something worthless that they spent a lot of money on.
OK, thanks
You don’t have to put your life savings in, just use it to send 5 bucks across the network the same way you use Venmo
To what end? So it can get converted into a real currency immediately? I understand (since you spammed it everywhere) that you can donate via crypto, but that's only because crypto can be converted into a real currency.
Give it up, my friend; fetch isn't going to happen.
this comment is fetch.
Ok I give up crypto is the worst thing ever
I can, via AliPay or WeChat wallet, reach out and send money to anybody on the AliPay or WeChat networks in seconds.
How long does an average Bitcoin transaction take again?
For small transaction (under 1000RMB/~US$140) there are zero transaction fees. For small businesses (doing under 10,000RMB/mo. in transactions) there are zero transaction fees as well. After that 10,000RMB limit is reached the transaction fees cap out at about 2% (they start smaller and ramp up as transactions increase).
What's the transaction fee for Bitcoin transactions again?
If fraud happens when I buy something (like a business sends fake goods, or doesn't deliver anything, etc.) the Ali Network (or Tencent for WeChat) steps in and reverses the transaction. I lose nothing. In addition if a business was egregious in its fraud, or has a history of doing it, the Ali Network (or Tencent) can and will remove that business' ability to, well, do business. A cancer is excised.
What's the recourse for bad transactions on Bitcoin again?
Donating via Bitcoin is the dumbest single way to donate. It's slow, it's expensive (robbing the people you're donating to of cash!), it's unreliable, and it's prone to abuse.
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Please, let’s not. Social media is best without any monetary incentives. If you want monetary compensation for your shit posts you can set up a Patreon or whatever blockchain equivalent you prefer. No need to embed it directly into the platform.
Regarding cryptocurrency, it’s negatively viewed upon because it’s heavily infested with scams. There’s no trust in it anymore. Quite poetic, because “trustless” is one of its main buzzwords.
I’m taking about creators like people who might use lemmy as their primary place to display the fruits of their efforts, be they photographers, artists, programmers, NSFW models, the list is endless. Integration of cryptocurrencies to pay people flies in the face of what these people currently must do, which is go to YouTube or onlyfans to profit, leaving these companies to take more than their fair share. Giving a way to pay people right here would grow the community and decrease reliance on these third party companies that indirectly pay people off the views they generate through ads.
It’s just obvious, and whether or not people like it, crypto payments will get integrated in the l̶e̶m̶m̶y̶v̶e̶r̶s̶e̶ fediverse in time
Just being decentralised doesn't mean they have anything else in common.