Well they're still blowing up kids with these things so idk if it's the most brilliant targeting technique
Compared to dumping white phosphorus over hospitals and refugee camps, killing 2 (?) children during an attack that targeted hundreds/thousands is many orders of magnitude more precise. I hate dead innocents as much as anyone, but you gotta admit the pagers were effective and included way less collateral damage than the methods Isreal has employed in recent history.
The point of the post isn't to praise the pagers attack. It's to point out that Isreal is capable of causing less collateral damage in Gaza but chooses not to.
Fucking weird comment.
but you gotta admit the pagers were effective and included way less collateral damage than the methods Isreal has employed in recent history.
Yeah. No I don't.
It's to point out that Isreal is capable of causing less collateral damage in Gaza but chooses not to.
That comes down to how often Hamas orders things that can reasonably have small bombs put inside them on a large scale and that Hamas are expected to have on their person's most of the time, how secure their supply lines are, how paranoid they are about looking for that kind of thing, that sort of thing. It involves a lot more moving parts and rare opportunities than just dropping some bombs.
you do not, under any circumstances, "gotta hand it to them"
but you gotta admit the pagers were effective and included way less collateral damage than the methods Isreal has employed in recent history.
Do you admit that mass gas chambers are an effective way to kill people ?
So much nuance, wow
Yes. A very large part of what made the holocaust so terrible was that it was very effective at killing people.
If my goal was to kill exclusively enemy combatants and leave all civilians alone, it would be pretty effective to round them up and gas them, yes. I'd rather do that than indiscriminate fire.
Combatants tend to violently fight back, when you try to round them up. They also tend to hide among civilians in case of terrorist militia like Hezbollah.
...are you implying that mass gas chambers aren't an effective way to kill people?
Do you admit that mass gas chambers are an effective way to kill people ?
so is climate change????
You do realise targets in Gaza and targets in Lebanon are not the same? On one hand you have fighters shielding themselves behind civilians and dont even know what a pager is and why they would use it, on the other hand you have political and operative leaders on these fighters that need these pagers to stay low profile and untaped...
On one hand you have fighters shielding themselves behind civilians
The practice is said to be so routine that Israeli soldiers have a name for the human shields, who are referred to as shawish – informal slang for a low-ranking soldier – and the process was described by several witnesses.
Palestinian civilians, mostly young men, are picked up by Israeli soldiers, dressed in Israeli army uniforms, then sent into tunnels and damaged houses ahead of Israeli forces, soldiers told Haaretz and Breaking the Silence.
Their hands are tied together and a camera is attached to their bodies as they go in.
Holy fuck that's disgusting
And Guess who put these booby traps?
Please give us a rundown of when human shields are okay and not okay. Let me guess, it depends who is using them, but in a roundabout way?
It's pretty effective when your attacker doesn't want to harm innocents at any cost, at least. But most organizations going to war don't care enough.
Bruh... Hamas put these traps in the middle of their "citizens", do you think IDF forced them to do this tactic?
It's amusing/depressing you went for the latter part of my post.
Ah so using human shields is OK all of a sudden? What about the second example? Don't worry, I can find more if you like
Bruh... Hamas put these traps in the middle of their "citizens", do you think IDF forced them to do this tactic?
I'm confused why you were so outraged by the use of human shields at first and now when I send examples you all of a sudden don't seem to care. You didn't even mention the second example yet.
Not my fault if you are confusing yourself...
Hamas so any tactic of waffen IDF is valid?
Bruh... Hamas put these traps in the middle of their "citizens", do you think IDF forced them to do this tactic?
bruh... that's a limp dick excuse for a genocide lol
Lol ironic considering you have to be a limp dick to excuse Hamas terrorism on their own "civilians"...
This doesnt surprise me at all, Hamas fanboys are like ISIS zealots, frustrated looser who believe they will get the opportunity to use their limp dick in heaven with virgins once they die as "martyr"... Lol pathetic...
Feels great to know they constantly get sent to oblivion, like knowing how frustrated and huge looser people defending them are... So keep going, this is so enjoyable...
Yes 🤡
Spot on, i knew it, no more arguments, trying to avoid further shaming himself with such answer, hmmm the sweet smell of a frustrated loser fuming alone behind his screen x)
That's not really true unless you believe IDF propaganda
::: spoiler Security
Israel does justify the settlements and military bases in the West Bank in the name of Security. However, the reality of the settlements on-the-ground has been the cause of violent resistance and a significant obstacle to peace, as it has been for decades.
This type of settlement, where the native population gets 'Transferred' to make room for the settlers, is a long standing practice. See: The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948, the Transfer Committee, and the JNF which led to Forced Displacement of 100,000 Palestinians throughout the mandate, before the mass ethnic cleansing campaign of 1948: Plan Dalet, Declassified Massacres of 1948, and Details of Plan C (May 1946) and Plan D (March 1948) . Further, declassified Israeli documents show that the Occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip were deliberately planned before being executed in 1967: Haaretz, Forward; while the peace process was exploited to continue de-facto annexation of the West Bank via Settlements (Oslo Accord Sources: MEE,NYT,Haaretz,AJ). The settlements are maintained through a violent apartheid that routinely employs violence towards Palestinians and denies human rights like water access, civil rights, etc. This kind of control gives rise to violent resistance to the Apartheid occupation, jeopardizing the safety of Israeli civilians.
The settlements represent land-grabbing, and land-grabbing and peace-making don’t go together, it is one or the other. By its actions, if not always in its rhetoric, Israel has opted for land-grabbing and as we speak Israel is expanding settlements. So, Israel has been systematically destroying the basis for a viable Palestinian state and this is the declared objective of the Likud and Netanyahu who used to pretend to accept a two-state solution. In the lead up to the last election, he said there will be no Palestinian state on his watch. The expansion of settlements and the wall mean that there cannot be a viable Palestinian state with territorial contiguity. The most that the Palestinians can hope for is Bantustans, a series of enclaves surrounded by Israeli settlements and Israeli military bases.
State violence – official and otherwise – is part and parcel of Israel’s apartheid regime, which aims to create a Jewish-only space between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. The regime treats land as a resource designed to serve the Jewish public, and accordingly uses it almost exclusively to develop and expand existing Jewish residential communities and to build new ones. At the same time, the regime fragments Palestinian space, dispossesses Palestinians of their land and relegates them to living in small, over-populated enclaves.
The apartheid regime is based on organized, systemic violence against Palestinians, which is carried out by numerous agents: the government, the military, the Civil Administration, the Supreme Court, the Israel Police, the Israel Security Agency, the Israel Prison Service, the Israel Nature and Parks Authority, and others. Settlers are another item on this list, and the state incorporates their violence into its own official acts of violence. Settler violence sometimes precedes instances of official violence by Israeli authorities, and at other times is incorporated into them. Like state violence, settler violence is organized, institutionalized, well-equipped and implemented in order to achieve a defined strategic goal.
On the subject of Human Shields, there are some independent reports for past conflicts of Hamas jeopardizing the safety of civilians via Rocket fire in dense urban areas, two instances during Oct 7th, but no independent verification since then so far. None of which absolve Israel of the crime of targeting civilians under international law:
Intentionally utilizing the presence of civilians or other protected persons to render certain areas immune from military attack is prohibited under international law. Amnesty International was not able to establish whether or not the fighters’ presence in the camps was intended to shield themselves from military attacks. However, under international humanitarian law, even if one party uses “human shields”, or is otherwise unlawfully endangering civilians, this does not absolve the opposing party from complying with its obligations to distinguish between military objectives and civilians or civilian objects, to refrain from carrying out indiscriminate or disproportionate attacks, and to take all feasible precautions to spare civilians and civilian objects.
Not all of Hezbollah are combatants, things are not that simple. Not all of Hezbollah are militants, there are many social workers and politicians. And even if they were, there are zero guarantees that all the pagers ended up in the hands of Hezbollah members. And even if that was the case, detonating them in public spaces is still a violation of international humanitarian law. By it's nature this was a massive terrorism attack
::: spoiler Quote
Hezbollah organizes an extensive social development program and runs hospitals, news services, educational facilities, and encouragement of Nikah mut‘ah. Some of its established institutions are: Emdad committee for Islamic Charity, Hezbollah Central Press Office, Al Jarha Association, and Jihad Al Binaa Developmental Association. Jihad Al Binna's Reconstruction Campaign is responsible for numerous economic and infrastructure development projects in Lebanon. Hezbollah has set up a Martyr's Institute (Al-Shahid Social Association), which guarantees to provide living and education expenses for the families of fighters who die in battle.
Hezbollah holds 14 of the 128 seats in the Parliament of Lebanon and is a member of the Resistance and Development Bloc. According to Daniel L. Byman, it is "the most powerful single political movement in Lebanon." Hezbollah, along with the Amal Movement, represents most of Lebanese Shi'a.
No, it's not. If you want to make a Nazi comparison, it would be a comparison with Israel. But that doesn't justify the targeting of Israeli civilians anymore than the justification of targeting Nazi Germany civilians like the Dresden bombings, which was a war crime and not justified.
Einstein along with many others compared the fascist actions of Zionism to Nazi Germany back in 1948, in wake of the ethnic cleansing of Palestine.
It's an Obama type technique. Sure, you might blow up a few innocents, but the rate of eliminated enemies vs killed innocents is better than in traditional warfare, so a numbers guy would always go for that one.
Leaked official documents show that that wasn't really the case as the public was led to believe
::: spoiler Quotes
The White House and Pentagon boast that the targeted killing program is precise and that civilian deaths are minimal. However, documents detailing a special operations campaign in northeastern Afghanistan, Operation Haymaker, show that between January 2012 and February 2013, U.S. special operations airstrikes killed more than 200 people. Of those, only 35 were the intended targets. During one five-month period of the operation, according to the documents, nearly 90 percent of the people killed in airstrikes were not the intended targets. In Yemen and Somalia, where the U.S. has far more limited intelligence capabilities to confirm the people killed are the intended targets, the equivalent ratios may well be much worse.
The documents show that the military designated people it killed in targeted strikes as EKIA — “enemy killed in action” — even if they were not the intended targets of the strike. Unless evidence posthumously emerged to prove the males killed were not terrorists or “unlawful enemy combatants,” EKIA remained their designation, according to the source. That process, he said, “is insane. But we’ve made ourselves comfortable with that. The intelligence community, JSOC, the CIA, and everybody that helps support and prop up these programs, they’re comfortable with that idea.”
The source described official U.S. government statements minimizing the number of civilian casualties inflicted by drone strikes as “exaggerating at best, if not outright lies.”
It took them years to prepare that operation. It was against Hezbollah, not Hamas, because they saw them as the bigger threat.
The war in Gazah is barbaric, but the sensible immediate alternative would have been a very targeted operation to find and rescue the hostages, not something like this.
The idf keep killing their hostages in what seem like very purposeful attempts to do so.
You don't make an omelet without cracking a fews eggs
Maybe they should have chose to make something other than an omelette then...
less genocide is not an option at this time...
Please tell me this is a joke.
Some Israelis have to die to save other israelis but that's just the side show.
The real event is the genocide against the Palestinian peoples
And it required Hezbollah to have no concept of logistic security. Maybe Hamas is not as amateurish as Hezbollah in that regard.
Historically Hamas has been the amateurs and Hezbollah the pros. Hezbollah has actual victories against the IDF. Hamas' military success last October was completely unprecedented. Its generally believed that Hezbollah trained Hamas into the fighting force it is now. And since Iran trained Hezbollah you get people claiming Hamas is an Iranian puppet.
There is no accident.
Mossad: “Making 40,000 pagers full of C4 and then convincing everyone in Gaza that they’re hip in 2024 is not profitable! What are we, Apple?”
Also Mossad: “But what about Lebanon?”
30 points - 1 day ago.
What happened to this site? Do people think this shit is funny?
Who's confused? They wanted to do a genocide so now they're doing a genocide.
It's more like, they keep doing the genocide.
But how would they arbitrarily punish everyone without carpet bombing? It’s not like everyone has a pager.
If you pull the thread enough there won't be any sweatshirt left. Chill bro.
Watch me unravel, I'll soon be naked
"we have infiltrate the supply chain of communication devices order by Hizbollah what should we do"
"put GPS tracker so we know where they are"
"we can listen to all their plans and communication"
"put a bomb inside ..."
I am fully against this booby trapping war crime regime but the problem with your first options is that pagers don't transmit like phones do. That means there would be no way to remotely aquire the GPS or other saved data undetected.
If you can plant an explosive in there you can plant a transmitter
My point was that a transmitter would be easily detectable.
But an explosive charge wouldn't? Don't we literally have dogs that can smell explosives?
Read the Wikipedia page for PETN, it's very hard to detect, including by sniffer dogs, because it's so stable.
to be fair, a gps tracker probably wouldn't be very useful. You wouldn't even know which pager is held by who. It would just tell you where people "probably are generally" which you probably already know.
you could intercept communications, but they're probably already doing that. doing it at a pager level would be weird, you should be doing it from a transmission level. But i don't know how pagers work so don't quote me on that.
you could put a bomb inside of it. That's an option...
Message is unencrypted when it hits the beeper?
the real problem is assuring the chain of custody through the owner of the pager itself.
It could be in the hands of "mr bob" for example, but maybe mr bob left it at his home, or gave it to a friend to hold onto for a while, or maybe two people ended up swapping pagers accidentally, there's no trivial way to know the immediate distribution of pagers either, so you should probably assume it's random, as distributing them alphabetically is probably unlikely. Although it is technically possible.
I just don't really know of a good way of specifically targeting a single pager with the intent of actually making the one you need to go off. to go off, the obvious problem if you fuck up, is that within a few hours, everybody knows you fucked up. All of those pagers are now going to be gone.
Its baffling for sure, would be nice to know what was gained from the attacks.
yeah, i would be curious to know how much of a success this was, and what the intent was. I assume it was primarily to create paranoia within hezbollah specifically, and i imagine it was quite successful.
Anything past that and idk, seems unlikely.
Generally yes, I think for this model of pager, that is the case. I think pagers operate on some oldass unencrypted 80's era protocol where a station just transmits the message freely on all waves until the pager comes into range and accepts it. You could've probably triggered this bombing with a big enough antenna inside of israel broadcasting the message. You can read as much on the wikipedia page.
Terrorism is bad and we should condemn it. Unless it's done by the United States in which case we should call it "anti -communism or defending democracy". Or if it's done by Israel we can call it "self-defense".
Whatever Israel is doing can just be added to the United States. In the end, Israel is just the guard dog "defending democracy" in the Middle East. A somewhat rabid guard dog, but still owned and fed by the US.
Just wait the carpet bombing will arrive sooner or later.
Hamas != Hisbollah
But I start to wonder if they Knew about the planed attacks and let them happen to start this massacre.
It feels like the all seeing eye of Mossad was ignored on purpose. I hope Netanjahus Name will be branded for ever. He deserves no good mention in History of humanity.
On the other side... humanity faces the biggest historic event ever and no one cares (climate change)
Hamas != Hisbollah
And they also don't use pagers, or cell phones, or....?
I think you imply the wrong thing here. of course they probably do, but what is the core of your statement?
Mine was:
Netanjahu (Not all of Israel and definitely not all Jews) wants this genocide. He needs it for his own survival, to a point where he gladly accepted the rape-murder of Festival crowd.... not any festival, a Hippie-Goa-Festival full of people who would never vote conservative, so a scapegoat the conservatives gladly gave.
Conservatives globally are such a vomit inducing Subgenre of human scum. Hamas and Hisbollah ARE conservatives too... the liberal-green-peace-people have no representation in this world filled with hatred. Quite the opposite, they are vilified and killed.
Ah I see now, I misread what you were trying to communicate.
I mean, not every individual has a pager on them necessarily. Not that it's excused either way
Way to completely miss the point. Nobody is suggesting they use pagers in Gaza.
Whoa. Hey guys. New war crime just dropped.
Is lemmy having trouble telling the difference between Hamas and Hezbollah now?
No? This is implying that Israel has had the technology to precisely target people for months but chooses to destroy a whole region instead went it came to Palestine.
to be clear, you can't directly target an individual, you can maybe potentially target a single individual.
This is also not to mention the cost and accessibility of doing something like this at scale. It's theorized they either got into the factories, or somehow got through the shipment and intercepted it to do this operation.
It's possible they acted as a middleman but that would be really really hard to do at scale like this.
And even if they did this in palestine, it would only work once.
You'll also notice that, according to Ben/according to Israel/according to Hezbollah... they advertised that they were going to stop using phones & switch to pagers. In July. So people going on about "they could have done this all along" are wrong. It's been since sometime in July. This July. Which makes this a very fast & even more effective military operation.
Yes, the shell company was set up 1.5 years ago. Date of sale, idk. But common sense: you need to sell your enemy the goods...and you need to know with relative certainty that the hardware is actively in use. So: since July.
oh good, ben shaprio, well known political hack. So basically TL;DR is that israel setup a shell company, selling tampered pagers and radios to hezbollah?
Seems about right.
The cost? You mean these bombs are more expensive that the weapons used to level Gaza? The ones they only get because other countries sell them?
i would assume on a unit level cost, these pagers are probably cheaper, as evidenced by recent Ukrainian advances, however the cost of actually getting these units in the hands of the people that need them is going to slowly approach infinity depending on how aggressively you wish to do it.
Also, other countries are allowed to sell military equipment, there's nothing innately illegal with that. Although the people of those countries may not like it, they do generally have the rights to protest it however.
We know people in Palestine have still have access to phones and Internet. I'm sure if Israel wanted, they could sneak new phones in the region. They literally control the whole of Palestine.
i mean sure, but making phones explode is a much harder task than making pagers explode, unless Palestinians use almost exclusively flip phones. Which i assume they dont.
there's just not very much room inside a modern phone, neither is there a good way to control the actual explodey bit. Unless you stuffed an entirely separate mechanism inside of it. To my knowledge phones don't exactly ship with GPIO pins on them. I guess you could probably jank it like ukraine is doing, but idk how well that would work.
Why would it only work once? It literally just worked twice in Lebanon. Lebanon is a sovereign nation that is not completely under the oppressive rule of a colonial occupier like Gaza is.
Israel controls everything and everyone that enters and exits Gaza. If they can do it in Lebanon, they can do it in Gaza.
both of these instances are highly related, and once it happens once, you can bet your ass hezbollah is going to inspect each and every piece of equipment they own. Or at least randomly inspect samples in the hopes of heavily deterring it.
Unless this is literally impossible to notice, which i highly doubt, this most seems like lack of competence by hezbollah itself, although in their defense, pagers generally aren't built with explosives, so...
Also i meant specifically with hezbollah, it could theoretically happen somewhere else, but anybody in gaza does still know about this now, so they're also 100% checking for this stuff as well.
Your comment implies they had a method like this one to attack Hamas. Source?
I mean they have the method and the will to use it, that's all I'm saying. Why couldn't they intercept the phones and other devices used by Hamas leaders the same way?
I mean they have the method and the will to use it, that’s all I’m saying.
The method may not have been applicable for some reason. Shooting people in the head is a method but unless they line up for you away from everyone who's not Hamas, that's not a realistic method to employ.
for some reason
Oh ok, super convincing argument. I refer to my previous response regarding the amount of control Israel exerts on Gaza. The suggestion that they could not do something similar there is absurd.
Oops, you missed this part (I’m sure it was an accident)
may not have been applicable for some reason
The comments I’m replying to are absolutely sure what Israel could have done. Mine make it clear I don’t know what Israel knows.
The burden of proof is on those who seem to think they just need whatever information is on the public internet to know what would or wouldn’t work against various targets.
Consider dialing back the confidence seeing as no one here knows shit about what intel any groups involved has.
Agreed! It's SAFER to just Bomb Orphanages and Schools to ENSURE those Hamas Kids die instead of using your Military Knowledge you Obviously have to find a Way to target ONLY Hamas!
That's not what they said.
What technology are they referring to then?
So they can do it to a sovereign nation, but they cannot do it to the completely oppressed population living in territories that they have complete control over, including every person and item that enters and exits? OK.
Do you just not know what the reality in Gaza is like? Do you not understand the level of control that Israel has exerted on those people for the past 8+ decades?
There is a reason that nobody can get humanitarian aide to them.
no i think they're talking about it cuz its israel
I forgot every method works the same against every target.
ok?
I'd argue the pager explosions were just a different form factor of carpet bombing
Yeah they cant just carpet bomb lebanon that would be too far for even the US.
Us gonna provide logistical support my man... Mark my words
Yeah I'm sure, the US would never let that slide, just like in Laos, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan.
Nothing in the world or in the US has changed since 1972.
GOOD point.
Nah a lot of things have changed, it's just that the US hasn't, sadly.
Unless Afghanistan and Iraq was in 1970 or singlehandedly funding a genocide as we speak doesn't count.
Correct IDF kills Palestinians as their core job, similar to Waffen SS and their war crimes.
Mossad kills people outside of Palestine to let normies know Israel is dangerous.
Hamas doesn’t use pagers, they use tunnels
Wtf is that mean. Tunnels aren't communication devices. Also Hezbollah famously has vast tunnel networks under southern Lebanon.
Wtf is that mean.
It means you have to actually go to the tunnels and fight, like the IDF is doing.
Lol that's not what they're doing.
It literally is
Oh I didn't realize you go "into" tunnels by indiscriminately bombing the things above them.
You learn something new every day.
Sometimes you bomb them so you don’t have to, or to block a means of egress. Either way it’s a legitimate military objective that justifies civilian casualties.
People could just leave the area, though. It’s not like Israel doesn’t tell them about the strike.
justifies civilian casualties.
The entire goal of hasbara is this.
Ah yes, I love going into tunnels by bombing hospitals and orphanages full of civilians, it's my favorite method. Also, are you suggesting that hamas doesn't use communication technology?
Why is a military tunnel under a hospital? (I don’t believe that Gaza had a single orphanage.)
First of all, I'm pretty sure it was proven not to be, but you can fact check me on that. Second, if it were there, it likely wasn't intentional. Third, they could have bombed the tunnel without hitting the hospital, because it wouldn't have only been under the hospital. Fourth, and again you can fact check me in this, but it would be pretty strange for a large city to have no orphanages.
Second, if it were there, it likely wasn't intentional.
It connects to, and opens into, a hospital referred to by the New York Times in 2008 as “the de facto headquarters of Hamas.” So clearly pretty intentional.
Third, they could have bombed the tunnel without hitting the hospital
They did bomb the tunnel without hitting the hospital.
Fourth, and again you can fact check me in this, but it would be pretty strange for a large city to have no orphanages.
There are zero orphanages in any American city, for instance. Not strange at all. Orphanages are kind of an archaic and disused way to handle the case of orphaned children - modern societies use a foster system, instead. Gazans simply don’t care so they make no provision at all if the family doesn’t step up, so they don’t run orphanages either.
2008 you say.
So.... 17 years ago?
Do you think they moved? Where do you think they moved it to?
OK, I'm going to let you take another few minutes and try that one again. I believe that you can figure it out on your own.
I’m asking you if you know of an alternate location from which Hamas plots attacks on Israel. Yes or no?
Hamas uses phones, hence the "Where's Daddy?" attack, which is not directed at tunnels. It's more-or-less designed to hit civilians. The clue is in the name.
It’s targeting the militant based on his phone.
Yes, specifically militants who are fathers.
Unfortunately choices have consequences
Well, the children don't have a choice, so I assume you're talking about the choice to target the militants there and not in another place.
Their father has a choice. He should act in a way that’s in his children’s best interests but if he thinks attacking Israel is more important, then the consequences will be his to live with.
I agree with you it would be better if he were simply killed, though; that’s certainly the position Israel takes on the matter.
quick question: anyone doubt carpet bombing germany in ww2 was wrong? doubt it.
No, carpet bombing civilians isn't wrong? Wow shit take.
what was your suggestion on stopping hitler?
On the battlefield and by winning the hearts and minds of the germans?
Didn't have precision munitions back then. Didn't have drones that can monitor the battlefield from across the globe and provide real-time video feeds.
Besides, in this case, Israel is playing Germany's role.
so wrong on so many levels.
but maybe we should ask the lgbtq spokesperson of hamas. ah, shit..there aint one because....
I'm trans. Doesn't mean I want everyone who dislikes me to die. Wtf kind of twisted logic is that?
no it means the previous argument was bullshit because fights for human rights for people who fight against human rights is retarded beyond belief. wtf of twisted logic to support the killer as long as you are not getting killed. geez, you are sick.
I think I somewhat misunderstood you previous argument.
As the original argument of the post-chain was the comparison of the Allies carpetbombing Germany (resulting in civilian casualties), and the attacks by Israel (which has also resulted in civilian casualties). I understood your post as justifying the civilian casualties behind their beliefs.
While I do not agree with your thought that people who fight against human-rights have their rights revoked. I can at least to some degree understand your point of view.
It is my opinion murder should be an absolute last resort, and only in cases where a crime has been committed and no other options are available.
On the point of civilian deaths resulting from any attack (be it the Allies, Israel, Hamas or other). I don't find it acceptable in any way. And that is why I used the words "twisted logic".
I understood your stance as anyone who thinks differently regarding LGBTQ-rights regardless of any crimes commited should be killed. Which I harshly disagree with.
But you're literally supporting a killer as long as you're not getting killed??? Can you not see the irony?
dont you understand selfdefense, right and wrong?
did you go to school....like ever? hamas and hizbulla want to eradicate israel. theres not much to discuss.
Yes, I went to school where we learned history. WHY do Hamas and Hezbola want to eradicate israel? What about the civilians? Do you know what self defense is? Do you see how silly an argument it is when "their side" says the same thing about their actions?
So they deserve genocide?
so they are distancing themselves fro hamas, even start attacks against the hamas terrorists? i havent heard of that.
so they have the right to make cover for terrorism against israel?
fuck anyone who ever supported Hamas or Hizbullah as much as fuck anyone who supported hitler or stalin etc.
Also, I want you to try this thought expect. Picture yourself in Gaza, for generations, one side has been negatively affecting your way of life. Imposing checkpoints, treating you like less than human. That side has now destroyed your schools, and hospitals, and mosques, family, and everything you hold dear. The otherside, while still horrible, generally leaves you alone to live your life. Why would you fight the side that generally leaves you be? Why would you not look at the other side as an enemy? This division is by design.
also i want you to try this thought experiment: you are german, all your folks killed jews, roma, sinta, red heads etc and the population just keeps on supporting the cause. and at some point the rest of the world is done with their shit and carpet bomb them. btw i am german. and we still have way to many nazis here.
Ah, ok so genocide all around then. That's sounds an awful lot like a final solution to your problem to me
Add netenyahu to that list if you're going to act like you want to play fair.
absolutely. hate him.
Cool, what about the people that support the innocent civilians? Because that's who I support. Ya know the ones who don't deserve it? Like the innocent people in Gaza, or the west Bank, or Lebanon, or Israel. What about them?
enlighten me on the innocent germans in WW2? No D-day you say?
Yes, the huge population of noncombattant Germans on the beaches on d-day, how could I forget that segment. Oh wait! Hitler had armies there, how silly of you.
It's war
So they deserve genocide?
In war, civilians lose.
They don't have to.
This is more like carpet bombing England during WW2
Well they're still blowing up kids with these things so idk if it's the most brilliant targeting technique
Compared to dumping white phosphorus over hospitals and refugee camps, killing 2 (?) children during an attack that targeted hundreds/thousands is many orders of magnitude more precise. I hate dead innocents as much as anyone, but you gotta admit the pagers were effective and included way less collateral damage than the methods Isreal has employed in recent history.
The point of the post isn't to praise the pagers attack. It's to point out that Isreal is capable of causing less collateral damage in Gaza but chooses not to.
Fucking weird comment.
Yeah. No I don't.
That comes down to how often Hamas orders things that can reasonably have small bombs put inside them on a large scale and that Hamas are expected to have on their person's most of the time, how secure their supply lines are, how paranoid they are about looking for that kind of thing, that sort of thing. It involves a lot more moving parts and rare opportunities than just dropping some bombs.
you do not, under any circumstances, "gotta hand it to them"
Do you admit that mass gas chambers are an effective way to kill people ?
So much nuance, wow
Yes. A very large part of what made the holocaust so terrible was that it was very effective at killing people.
If my goal was to kill exclusively enemy combatants and leave all civilians alone, it would be pretty effective to round them up and gas them, yes. I'd rather do that than indiscriminate fire.
Combatants tend to violently fight back, when you try to round them up. They also tend to hide among civilians in case of terrorist militia like Hezbollah.
...are you implying that mass gas chambers aren't an effective way to kill people?
so is climate change????
You do realise targets in Gaza and targets in Lebanon are not the same? On one hand you have fighters shielding themselves behind civilians and dont even know what a pager is and why they would use it, on the other hand you have political and operative leaders on these fighters that need these pagers to stay low profile and untaped...
You're right, this is disgusting...
https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/14/israeli-forces-in-gaza-use-civilians-as-human-shields-against-possible-booby-traps
And this is too. Do these people have no morals? https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/6/23/human-shielding-in-action-israeli-forces-strap-palestinian-man-to-jeep
Holy fuck that's disgusting
And Guess who put these booby traps?
Please give us a rundown of when human shields are okay and not okay. Let me guess, it depends who is using them, but in a roundabout way?
It's pretty effective when your attacker doesn't want to harm innocents at any cost, at least. But most organizations going to war don't care enough.
Bruh... Hamas put these traps in the middle of their "citizens", do you think IDF forced them to do this tactic?
It's amusing/depressing you went for the latter part of my post.
Ah so using human shields is OK all of a sudden? What about the second example? Don't worry, I can find more if you like
Bruh... Hamas put these traps in the middle of their "citizens", do you think IDF forced them to do this tactic?
I'm confused why you were so outraged by the use of human shields at first and now when I send examples you all of a sudden don't seem to care. You didn't even mention the second example yet.
Not my fault if you are confusing yourself...
Hamas so any tactic of waffen IDF is valid?
Bruh... Hamas put these traps in the middle of their "citizens", do you think IDF forced them to do this tactic?
bruh... that's a limp dick excuse for a genocide lol
Lol ironic considering you have to be a limp dick to excuse Hamas terrorism on their own "civilians"...
This doesnt surprise me at all, Hamas fanboys are like ISIS zealots, frustrated looser who believe they will get the opportunity to use their limp dick in heaven with virgins once they die as "martyr"... Lol pathetic...
Feels great to know they constantly get sent to oblivion, like knowing how frustrated and huge looser people defending them are... So keep going, this is so enjoyable...
Yes 🤡
Spot on, i knew it, no more arguments, trying to avoid further shaming himself with such answer, hmmm the sweet smell of a frustrated loser fuming alone behind his screen x)
Lol, 🤣
That's not really true unless you believe IDF propaganda
::: spoiler Security
Israel does justify the settlements and military bases in the West Bank in the name of Security. However, the reality of the settlements on-the-ground has been the cause of violent resistance and a significant obstacle to peace, as it has been for decades.
This type of settlement, where the native population gets 'Transferred' to make room for the settlers, is a long standing practice. See: The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948, the Transfer Committee, and the JNF which led to Forced Displacement of 100,000 Palestinians throughout the mandate, before the mass ethnic cleansing campaign of 1948: Plan Dalet, Declassified Massacres of 1948, and Details of Plan C (May 1946) and Plan D (March 1948) . Further, declassified Israeli documents show that the Occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip were deliberately planned before being executed in 1967: Haaretz, Forward; while the peace process was exploited to continue de-facto annexation of the West Bank via Settlements (Oslo Accord Sources: MEE, NYT, Haaretz, AJ). The settlements are maintained through a violent apartheid that routinely employs violence towards Palestinians and denies human rights like water access, civil rights, etc. This kind of control gives rise to violent resistance to the Apartheid occupation, jeopardizing the safety of Israeli civilians.
How Avi Shlaim moved from two-state solution to one-state solution
‘One state is a game changer’: A conversation with Ilan Pappe
:::
Civilian Deaths and Human Shields:
Israel does deliberately targets civilian areas. From in general with the Dahiya Doctrine to multiple systems deployed in Gaza to do so: ‘A mass assassination factory’: Inside Israel’s calculated bombing of Gaza, Lavender, and Where's Daddy. When it comes to Israeli Soldiers and Civilians, there is also the use of the Hannibal Directive, which was also used on Oct 7th.
Hundreds of Genocide Scholars have described this ethnic cleansing campaign as genocide because of the deliberate targeting of children/civilians and expressed intent by Israeli officials: “A Textbook Case of Genocide”: Israeli Holocaust Scholar Raz Segal Decries Israel’s Assault on Gaza, 800+ Legal Scholars Say Israel May Be Perpetrating 'Crime of Genocide' in Gaza , Law for Palestine Releases Database with 500+ Instances of Israeli Incitement to Genocide – Continuously Updated.
On the subject of Human Shields, there are some independent reports for past conflicts of Hamas jeopardizing the safety of civilians via Rocket fire in dense urban areas, two instances during Oct 7th, but no independent verification since then so far. None of which absolve Israel of the crime of targeting civilians under international law:
HRW on Laws-of-War Violations 2009
Agency Demands Full Respect for the Sanctity of Its Premises in Gaza - July 2014
HRW - Palestinian Armed Groups’ October 7 Assault on Israel
Israel/OPT: Israeli attacks targeting Hamas and other armed group fighters that killed scores of displaced civilians in Rafah should be investigated as war crimes
HRW - Gaza: Unlawful Israeli Hospital Strikes Worsen Health Crisis
Additionally, there is extensive independent verification of Israel using Palestinians as Human Shields: IDF uses Human Shields, including Children (2013 Report), and in the latest war Israel “Systematically” Uses Gaza Children as Human Shields, Rights Group Finds
What does any of this relate to pagers strike?
Also, your sources... Lol...
Not all of Hezbollah are combatants, things are not that simple. Not all of Hezbollah are militants, there are many social workers and politicians. And even if they were, there are zero guarantees that all the pagers ended up in the hands of Hezbollah members. And even if that was the case, detonating them in public spaces is still a violation of international humanitarian law. By it's nature this was a massive terrorism attack
::: spoiler Quote
:::
Lol its like saying all nazis were not bad guys 🤡
No, it's not. If you want to make a Nazi comparison, it would be a comparison with Israel. But that doesn't justify the targeting of Israeli civilians anymore than the justification of targeting Nazi Germany civilians like the Dresden bombings, which was a war crime and not justified.
Einstein along with many others compared the fascist actions of Zionism to Nazi Germany back in 1948, in wake of the ethnic cleansing of Palestine.
https://archive.org/details/AlbertEinsteinLetterToTheNewYorkTimes.December41948
In the Shadow of the Holocaust by Masha Gessen, the situation in Gaza is compared to the Warsaw Ghettos. The comparison was also made by a Palestinian poet who was later killed by an Israeli airstrike. Adi Callai, an Israeli, has also written on the parallels in his article The Gaza Ghetto Uprising and expanded upon in his corresponding video
It's an Obama type technique. Sure, you might blow up a few innocents, but the rate of eliminated enemies vs killed innocents is better than in traditional warfare, so a numbers guy would always go for that one.
Leaked official documents show that that wasn't really the case as the public was led to believe
::: spoiler Quotes
:::
When your goal is genocide, a kill is a kill
Its accepting Israeli propaganda to say that this was a precision strike. This is like using cluster munitions.
Whenever Israel comes up with an idea for an assassination they do it because they can. Its a force of habit for them.
It took them years to prepare that operation. It was against Hezbollah, not Hamas, because they saw them as the bigger threat.
The war in Gazah is barbaric, but the sensible immediate alternative would have been a very targeted operation to find and rescue the hostages, not something like this.
The idf keep killing their hostages in what seem like very purposeful attempts to do so.
You don't make an omelet without cracking a fews eggs
Maybe they should have chose to make something other than an omelette then...
less genocide is not an option at this time...
Please tell me this is a joke.
Some Israelis have to die to save other israelis but that's just the side show.
The real event is the genocide against the Palestinian peoples
And it required Hezbollah to have no concept of logistic security. Maybe Hamas is not as amateurish as Hezbollah in that regard.
Historically Hamas has been the amateurs and Hezbollah the pros. Hezbollah has actual victories against the IDF. Hamas' military success last October was completely unprecedented. Its generally believed that Hezbollah trained Hamas into the fighting force it is now. And since Iran trained Hezbollah you get people claiming Hamas is an Iranian puppet.
There is no accident.
Mossad: “Making 40,000 pagers full of C4 and then convincing everyone in Gaza that they’re hip in 2024 is not profitable! What are we, Apple?”
Also Mossad: “But what about Lebanon?”
30 points - 1 day ago.
What happened to this site? Do people think this shit is funny?
Who's confused? They wanted to do a genocide so now they're doing a genocide.
It's more like, they keep doing the genocide.
But how would they arbitrarily punish everyone without carpet bombing? It’s not like everyone has a pager.
If you pull the thread enough there won't be any sweatshirt left. Chill bro.
Watch me unravel, I'll soon be naked
"we have infiltrate the supply chain of communication devices order by Hizbollah what should we do"
I am fully against this booby trapping war crime regime but the problem with your first options is that pagers don't transmit like phones do. That means there would be no way to remotely aquire the GPS or other saved data undetected.
If you can plant an explosive in there you can plant a transmitter
My point was that a transmitter would be easily detectable.
But an explosive charge wouldn't? Don't we literally have dogs that can smell explosives?
Read the Wikipedia page for PETN, it's very hard to detect, including by sniffer dogs, because it's so stable.
to be fair, a gps tracker probably wouldn't be very useful. You wouldn't even know which pager is held by who. It would just tell you where people "probably are generally" which you probably already know.
you could intercept communications, but they're probably already doing that. doing it at a pager level would be weird, you should be doing it from a transmission level. But i don't know how pagers work so don't quote me on that.
you could put a bomb inside of it. That's an option...
Message is unencrypted when it hits the beeper?
the real problem is assuring the chain of custody through the owner of the pager itself.
It could be in the hands of "mr bob" for example, but maybe mr bob left it at his home, or gave it to a friend to hold onto for a while, or maybe two people ended up swapping pagers accidentally, there's no trivial way to know the immediate distribution of pagers either, so you should probably assume it's random, as distributing them alphabetically is probably unlikely. Although it is technically possible.
I just don't really know of a good way of specifically targeting a single pager with the intent of actually making the one you need to go off. to go off, the obvious problem if you fuck up, is that within a few hours, everybody knows you fucked up. All of those pagers are now going to be gone.
Its baffling for sure, would be nice to know what was gained from the attacks.
yeah, i would be curious to know how much of a success this was, and what the intent was. I assume it was primarily to create paranoia within hezbollah specifically, and i imagine it was quite successful.
Anything past that and idk, seems unlikely.
Generally yes, I think for this model of pager, that is the case. I think pagers operate on some oldass unencrypted 80's era protocol where a station just transmits the message freely on all waves until the pager comes into range and accepts it. You could've probably triggered this bombing with a big enough antenna inside of israel broadcasting the message. You can read as much on the wikipedia page.
Terrorism is bad and we should condemn it. Unless it's done by the United States in which case we should call it "anti -communism or defending democracy". Or if it's done by Israel we can call it "self-defense".
Whatever Israel is doing can just be added to the United States. In the end, Israel is just the guard dog "defending democracy" in the Middle East. A somewhat rabid guard dog, but still owned and fed by the US.
Just wait the carpet bombing will arrive sooner or later.
Hamas != Hisbollah
But I start to wonder if they Knew about the planed attacks and let them happen to start this massacre.
It feels like the all seeing eye of Mossad was ignored on purpose. I hope Netanjahus Name will be branded for ever. He deserves no good mention in History of humanity.
On the other side... humanity faces the biggest historic event ever and no one cares (climate change)
And they also don't use pagers, or cell phones, or....?
I think you imply the wrong thing here. of course they probably do, but what is the core of your statement?
Mine was:
Netanjahu (Not all of Israel and definitely not all Jews) wants this genocide. He needs it for his own survival, to a point where he gladly accepted the rape-murder of Festival crowd.... not any festival, a Hippie-Goa-Festival full of people who would never vote conservative, so a scapegoat the conservatives gladly gave.
Conservatives globally are such a vomit inducing Subgenre of human scum. Hamas and Hisbollah ARE conservatives too... the liberal-green-peace-people have no representation in this world filled with hatred. Quite the opposite, they are vilified and killed.
Ah I see now, I misread what you were trying to communicate.
Sry. I try me best. =∆
I mean, not every individual has a pager on them necessarily. Not that it's excused either way
Way to completely miss the point. Nobody is suggesting they use pagers in Gaza.
Whoa. Hey guys. New war crime just dropped.
Is lemmy having trouble telling the difference between Hamas and Hezbollah now?
No? This is implying that Israel has had the technology to precisely target people for months but chooses to destroy a whole region instead went it came to Palestine.
to be clear, you can't directly target an individual, you can maybe potentially target a single individual.
This is also not to mention the cost and accessibility of doing something like this at scale. It's theorized they either got into the factories, or somehow got through the shipment and intercepted it to do this operation.
It's possible they acted as a middleman but that would be really really hard to do at scale like this.
And even if they did this in palestine, it would only work once.
You don't need to speculate or theorize; they say exactly how they did it. I cut to the exact part of the video where it is succinctly explained.
You'll also notice that, according to Ben/according to Israel/according to Hezbollah... they advertised that they were going to stop using phones & switch to pagers. In July. So people going on about "they could have done this all along" are wrong. It's been since sometime in July. This July. Which makes this a very fast & even more effective military operation.
Yes, the shell company was set up 1.5 years ago. Date of sale, idk. But common sense: you need to sell your enemy the goods...and you need to know with relative certainty that the hardware is actively in use. So: since July.
oh good, ben shaprio, well known political hack. So basically TL;DR is that israel setup a shell company, selling tampered pagers and radios to hezbollah?
Seems about right.
The cost? You mean these bombs are more expensive that the weapons used to level Gaza? The ones they only get because other countries sell them?
i would assume on a unit level cost, these pagers are probably cheaper, as evidenced by recent Ukrainian advances, however the cost of actually getting these units in the hands of the people that need them is going to slowly approach infinity depending on how aggressively you wish to do it.
Also, other countries are allowed to sell military equipment, there's nothing innately illegal with that. Although the people of those countries may not like it, they do generally have the rights to protest it however.
We know people in Palestine have still have access to phones and Internet. I'm sure if Israel wanted, they could sneak new phones in the region. They literally control the whole of Palestine.
i mean sure, but making phones explode is a much harder task than making pagers explode, unless Palestinians use almost exclusively flip phones. Which i assume they dont.
there's just not very much room inside a modern phone, neither is there a good way to control the actual explodey bit. Unless you stuffed an entirely separate mechanism inside of it. To my knowledge phones don't exactly ship with GPIO pins on them. I guess you could probably jank it like ukraine is doing, but idk how well that would work.
Why would it only work once? It literally just worked twice in Lebanon. Lebanon is a sovereign nation that is not completely under the oppressive rule of a colonial occupier like Gaza is.
Israel controls everything and everyone that enters and exits Gaza. If they can do it in Lebanon, they can do it in Gaza.
both of these instances are highly related, and once it happens once, you can bet your ass hezbollah is going to inspect each and every piece of equipment they own. Or at least randomly inspect samples in the hopes of heavily deterring it.
Unless this is literally impossible to notice, which i highly doubt, this most seems like lack of competence by hezbollah itself, although in their defense, pagers generally aren't built with explosives, so...
Also i meant specifically with hezbollah, it could theoretically happen somewhere else, but anybody in gaza does still know about this now, so they're also 100% checking for this stuff as well.
Your comment implies they had a method like this one to attack Hamas. Source?
I mean they have the method and the will to use it, that's all I'm saying. Why couldn't they intercept the phones and other devices used by Hamas leaders the same way?
The method may not have been applicable for some reason. Shooting people in the head is a method but unless they line up for you away from everyone who's not Hamas, that's not a realistic method to employ.
Oh ok, super convincing argument. I refer to my previous response regarding the amount of control Israel exerts on Gaza. The suggestion that they could not do something similar there is absurd.
Oops, you missed this part (I’m sure it was an accident)
The comments I’m replying to are absolutely sure what Israel could have done. Mine make it clear I don’t know what Israel knows.
The burden of proof is on those who seem to think they just need whatever information is on the public internet to know what would or wouldn’t work against various targets.
Consider dialing back the confidence seeing as no one here knows shit about what intel any groups involved has.
Agreed! It's SAFER to just Bomb Orphanages and Schools to ENSURE those Hamas Kids die instead of using your Military Knowledge you Obviously have to find a Way to target ONLY Hamas!
That's not what they said.
What technology are they referring to then?
So they can do it to a sovereign nation, but they cannot do it to the completely oppressed population living in territories that they have complete control over, including every person and item that enters and exits? OK.
Do you just not know what the reality in Gaza is like? Do you not understand the level of control that Israel has exerted on those people for the past 8+ decades?
There is a reason that nobody can get humanitarian aide to them.
no i think they're talking about it cuz its israel
I forgot every method works the same against every target.
ok?
I'd argue the pager explosions were just a different form factor of carpet bombing
Yeah they cant just carpet bomb lebanon that would be too far for even the US.
Us gonna provide logistical support my man... Mark my words
Yeah I'm sure, the US would never let that slide, just like in Laos, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan.
Nothing in the world or in the US has changed since 1972.
GOOD point.
Nah a lot of things have changed, it's just that the US hasn't, sadly.
Unless Afghanistan and Iraq was in 1970 or singlehandedly funding a genocide as we speak doesn't count.
But muh false equivalency.
Meanwhile on lemmy.ml
To be fair, Mossad != IDF.
Correct IDF kills Palestinians as their core job, similar to Waffen SS and their war crimes.
Mossad kills people outside of Palestine to let normies know Israel is dangerous.
Hamas doesn’t use pagers, they use tunnels
Wtf is that mean. Tunnels aren't communication devices. Also Hezbollah famously has vast tunnel networks under southern Lebanon.
It means you have to actually go to the tunnels and fight, like the IDF is doing.
Lol that's not what they're doing.
It literally is
Oh I didn't realize you go "into" tunnels by indiscriminately bombing the things above them.
You learn something new every day.
Sometimes you bomb them so you don’t have to, or to block a means of egress. Either way it’s a legitimate military objective that justifies civilian casualties.
People could just leave the area, though. It’s not like Israel doesn’t tell them about the strike.
The entire goal of hasbara is this.
Ah yes, I love going into tunnels by bombing hospitals and orphanages full of civilians, it's my favorite method. Also, are you suggesting that hamas doesn't use communication technology?
Why is a military tunnel under a hospital? (I don’t believe that Gaza had a single orphanage.)
First of all, I'm pretty sure it was proven not to be, but you can fact check me on that. Second, if it were there, it likely wasn't intentional. Third, they could have bombed the tunnel without hitting the hospital, because it wouldn't have only been under the hospital. Fourth, and again you can fact check me in this, but it would be pretty strange for a large city to have no orphanages.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/02/12/world/middleeast/gaza-tunnel-israel-hamas.html
It connects to, and opens into, a hospital referred to by the New York Times in 2008 as “the de facto headquarters of Hamas.” So clearly pretty intentional.
They did bomb the tunnel without hitting the hospital.
There are zero orphanages in any American city, for instance. Not strange at all. Orphanages are kind of an archaic and disused way to handle the case of orphaned children - modern societies use a foster system, instead. Gazans simply don’t care so they make no provision at all if the family doesn’t step up, so they don’t run orphanages either.
2008 you say.
So.... 17 years ago?
Do you think they moved? Where do you think they moved it to?
OK, I'm going to let you take another few minutes and try that one again. I believe that you can figure it out on your own.
I’m asking you if you know of an alternate location from which Hamas plots attacks on Israel. Yes or no?
Hamas uses phones, hence the "Where's Daddy?" attack, which is not directed at tunnels. It's more-or-less designed to hit civilians. The clue is in the name.
It’s targeting the militant based on his phone.
Yes, specifically militants who are fathers.
Unfortunately choices have consequences
Well, the children don't have a choice, so I assume you're talking about the choice to target the militants there and not in another place.
Their father has a choice. He should act in a way that’s in his children’s best interests but if he thinks attacking Israel is more important, then the consequences will be his to live with.
I agree with you it would be better if he were simply killed, though; that’s certainly the position Israel takes on the matter.
quick question: anyone doubt carpet bombing germany in ww2 was wrong? doubt it.
The residents of Dresden, perhaps ?
So it goes.
if the bots here could read...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden
25000 noncombattants lost their lives needlessly and that's not wrong to you?
no. or how would you have solved that hitler thing back then? freeze the war, keep KZs open?
Maybe attack military installations. Win the German population to your side?
Ooh boy, now that's a take and a half. Win over the population of Nazi Germany on behalf of the invading force?
Better than bombing them.
You seriously think we could have won the hearts and minds of people living in nazi Germany? You think that's a legit plan?
You think you can bomb away an ideology? You think that's a legit plan?
I wasn't aware that's what we were trying to do.
You're trying to do? To anyone with eyes, it's exactly what israel is trying to do.
Yes, it was wrong.
no.
No, carpet bombing civilians isn't wrong? Wow shit take.
what was your suggestion on stopping hitler?
On the battlefield and by winning the hearts and minds of the germans?
Didn't have precision munitions back then. Didn't have drones that can monitor the battlefield from across the globe and provide real-time video feeds.
Besides, in this case, Israel is playing Germany's role.
so wrong on so many levels. but maybe we should ask the lgbtq spokesperson of hamas. ah, shit..there aint one because....
I'm trans. Doesn't mean I want everyone who dislikes me to die. Wtf kind of twisted logic is that?
no it means the previous argument was bullshit because fights for human rights for people who fight against human rights is retarded beyond belief. wtf of twisted logic to support the killer as long as you are not getting killed. geez, you are sick.
I think I somewhat misunderstood you previous argument. As the original argument of the post-chain was the comparison of the Allies carpetbombing Germany (resulting in civilian casualties), and the attacks by Israel (which has also resulted in civilian casualties). I understood your post as justifying the civilian casualties behind their beliefs.
While I do not agree with your thought that people who fight against human-rights have their rights revoked. I can at least to some degree understand your point of view. It is my opinion murder should be an absolute last resort, and only in cases where a crime has been committed and no other options are available.
On the point of civilian deaths resulting from any attack (be it the Allies, Israel, Hamas or other). I don't find it acceptable in any way. And that is why I used the words "twisted logic". I understood your stance as anyone who thinks differently regarding LGBTQ-rights regardless of any crimes commited should be killed. Which I harshly disagree with.
But you're literally supporting a killer as long as you're not getting killed??? Can you not see the irony?
dont you understand selfdefense, right and wrong? did you go to school....like ever? hamas and hizbulla want to eradicate israel. theres not much to discuss.
Yes, I went to school where we learned history. WHY do Hamas and Hezbola want to eradicate israel? What about the civilians? Do you know what self defense is? Do you see how silly an argument it is when "their side" says the same thing about their actions?
So they deserve genocide?
so they are distancing themselves fro hamas, even start attacks against the hamas terrorists? i havent heard of that. so they have the right to make cover for terrorism against israel? fuck anyone who ever supported Hamas or Hizbullah as much as fuck anyone who supported hitler or stalin etc.
Also, I want you to try this thought expect. Picture yourself in Gaza, for generations, one side has been negatively affecting your way of life. Imposing checkpoints, treating you like less than human. That side has now destroyed your schools, and hospitals, and mosques, family, and everything you hold dear. The otherside, while still horrible, generally leaves you alone to live your life. Why would you fight the side that generally leaves you be? Why would you not look at the other side as an enemy? This division is by design.
also i want you to try this thought experiment: you are german, all your folks killed jews, roma, sinta, red heads etc and the population just keeps on supporting the cause. and at some point the rest of the world is done with their shit and carpet bomb them. btw i am german. and we still have way to many nazis here.
Ah, ok so genocide all around then. That's sounds an awful lot like a final solution to your problem to me
Add netenyahu to that list if you're going to act like you want to play fair.
absolutely. hate him.
Cool, what about the people that support the innocent civilians? Because that's who I support. Ya know the ones who don't deserve it? Like the innocent people in Gaza, or the west Bank, or Lebanon, or Israel. What about them?
enlighten me on the innocent germans in WW2? No D-day you say?
Yes, the huge population of noncombattant Germans on the beaches on d-day, how could I forget that segment. Oh wait! Hitler had armies there, how silly of you.
It's war
So they deserve genocide?
In war, civilians lose.
They don't have to.
This is more like carpet bombing England during WW2