'We are all Gisèle': French women rise up against 'rape culture' during Gisèle Pelicot trial
They line up in front of a courthouse in southeastern France, from morning to evening, and have gathered in the thousands in cities across the country. They hold signs reading, "one rape every six minutes," "not all men but always a man," and "giving in is not consenting."
They chant: "Rapist we see you, victim we believe you."
Women across France are rallying in support of Gisèle Pelicot, a 72-year-old reluctant icon whose husband is on trial in the city of Avignon for systematically drugging her and inviting dozens of men, 50 of whom are now his co-defendants, into their home to rape her over nearly a decade.
The shocking case has sparked what many women in France call a long-overdue reckoning over "rape culture" and systemic sexism in the way the judicial system handles sexual violence.
Pointless sexist bullshit and wrong on its face. I never understood the drive some people have to paint abusive behavior as exclusive to men.
Exactly. If anything, signs like these drag the attention away from the actual issue.
I mean this thread is a good example of that and why such signs are bad
I guess it’s sometimes done in the spirit of forcing men to really consider their actions, because most of the men I know tend to think abusive men are always other men. And we usually have plenty excuses for our own abusive behavior. So it is like saying: “no, stop with the excuses, the problem is you”, in the hopes that this message will also reach its intended audience, ie the many men who are abusive to women in one way or another and, largely, in denial.
But I agree, these kinds of slogans annoy the hell out of me too and are totally not helpful in more ways than one, e.g., when men seek protection from abuse. I guess there are better ways of making a more forceful point about holding men accountable.
I'm sure most if not all abusers are in denial and don't consider themselves abusers, but this slogan gives a pass to ones who happen to be women by insisting that they don't exist at all.
I don't think that slogan communicates what you're saying here well, if at all
There's a comedian who told a story, that I feel almost every guy can tell as if it was theirs..
They had that friend in their friends group. You know, the kne always making misogynic jokes etc. Well, yeah, that guy eventually raped someone.
You know where he says it was his, the comedian's, fault? The whole group always laughed at those jokes, or maybe didn't laugh, but definitely didn't dismiss them, didn't lecture the guy, didn't tell him it was not ok.
There's this men's club where misogyny is an accepted business as usual. And it enables deranged individuals.
So, as a man who's aware of the statistics, you can start doing some prevention: shame other men for misogyny.
Oh, and btw, fuck the lady with sign. She's a petty sexist using someone's tragedy to support her hate for men.
As a man, “that” guy initially received physical consequences, and is now locked in a box. All the people that made that happen also identified as men. It’s almost like rape is bad and everyone agrees, including men.
Maybe it was the 50 men that raped this woman?
Women rapists are more rare. And comments like this only serve to promote rape culture. Maybe stop and think of how many women are hurting before you start screaming sexism and then maybe women will listen to your point of view.
They exist, right? In direct contradiction to what the sign is plainly saying, right? But pointing that out is somehow promoting rape culture? That is ridiculous and offensive. They mean to exclude an entire category of survivors. To believe that slogan and uncritically repeat it, you'd need to be willfully ignorant and have the emotional intelligence of a turnip.
Sex abuse of all kinds is evil and a social menace. By people of any gender, against people of any gender. No equivocation, full stop.
Maybe stop to think about the male victims of female abusers in this fucking thread before you hand wave us away as "more rare" and "promoting rape culture" by "not being excited about being lumped in with abusers simply for having a penis while our abusers are lauded for having vaginas." You excusing it as rare and that sign pretending women can't rape are promoting rape culture, full stop.
'Not all men but always a man' seems to marginalise victims of female rapists, which do exist.
Otherwise, I'm absolutely in favour of rehabilitation, and if necessary, isolation of rapists - of all genders. I hope the court/government can be made to agree
From the article:
It seems that sexual violence has been hidden in plain sight and downplayed heavily by the police and justice system, or simply socially accepted.
It's estimated 10% of people have been victim of incest, here in France. How can you build something safe based on that.
I don't believe our current justice system allows for proper rehabilitation. Second offense for such crimes are still very high (10%?).
IMHO It's a nation wide educational failure and our politicians aren't really keen on fixing this, for now.
Keep in mind those numbers don't perfectly reflect reality though. Probably a few percents off in favor of women
Were you responding to something specific I said or just providing more facts?
Just providing more facts on the "all men" plus maybe a bit more context on the situation here.
How does France legally define rape ?
If its a gendered definition then the statistics are incorrect because rape can be committed by both sexes
These statistics are more biased by our police not accepting the victims' complaints than our justice's definition, or also what we see as socially acceptable. That's why these stats have risen so much in the recent years.
Heck our president met his wife when he was a minor and she was his school teacher, we have ex high government official mixed in incest stories...
As much as it's false to say it's always men, these numbers exist more as a reflection of our justice system and shouldn't be used to infer stats on the society as a whole.
Oh, it’s much worse than that: the CDC - the largest medical org on the f**king planet - has clearly established that women rape men as frequently as men rape women:
50% of all cross-gender rapists are women, and yet almost 100% of all convicted rapists are men.
What an exemplary case of systemic gender bigotry and misandry in society and the legal establishment.
I don't like that sign. Sure, when she gets raped it's probably a man but every time it's happened to me so far it has been a woman, so, no not "always a man."
"Good" news is that while I was forced to have sex (or else what was I gonna do fight her? Yeah that won't end with me in cuffs) it isn't rape because definitionally the worst women can do in my area is sexual assault, and people only care if you're a minor, just try and report it as an adult. Most people just think "oh you're a man you must've liked it" and just minimize it away because we're just sex objects so who fucking cares, I just had to get the fuck over it and I did, but it still pisses me off that I'm literally the victim of this shit and treated like a perpetrator by default just because I happen to have a penis, it's the ultimate "fuck you" on top really.
As a male SA victim I have been repeatedly told that it was my fault for having the privilege. So I guess “you’re welcome” to both of us.
Came here to see discussions about the truly insane case mentioned in the article. Actually found an entire comment section full of 'not all men' vs 'basically all men' threads
Do I want to scroll down? Nah, not really.
I'll just leave this here: No, not all men are rapists. Yes, all men should stand up to them. It's that simple and if you deviate from that formula you dive into rape culture or misandry, depending, are part of the problem, actively, passively, in one way or the other.
As a man, have this attitude (there's subtitles).
As a woman... "Dudes it's only an embellishment" "noone thinks 'all men' is meant seriously" STFU you're being catty you know exactly how often women use covert aggression, use plausible deniability to get away with the vilest shit, even if you don't mean it like that right now, in this instance, it's still how it's perceived, and no, not all men deserve to be treated like that. So cut it out.
The internet loves to argue with a generalization that is only true 9,999 times out of ten thousand.
Help me with the math on this, if "it's always men" 9,999 out of 10,000 times, and I've personally been raped by two women, what're my odds on that? I must be getting all the rape the women of the world can dish out then, huh?
Couldn't possibly be that men seldom report, seldom are taken seriously when they do, and even when they are taken seriously in many places women can't legally "rape" so the best they can get a slap on the wrist for is "Sexual Assault" for forcing men to have sex with them? Could it? No waaaaayyyyy.
Instead of letting my numbers make you feel small, perhaps think for a second how enormous the problem of male sexual assault is. That’s the math help you need here.
I agree, male sexual assault is a problem and nobody is talking about it. In fact when we (males who have been sexually assaulted) try and, not even "be included," just "not be excluded," we're told to sit down and shut up, we're only 4% so we don't matter, we must've liked it if our body responded naturally to stimulus, she was hot anyway so we're lucky, and quit being a pussy." In fact legally in my area and many more the worst the women who forced me to have sex with them even could be charged with is sexual assault becausr technically "rape" requires penetration. Isn't that fucked up?
How 'bout instead of trying to silence male victims of sexual assault when they're rightfully indignant about being excluded you do a little soul searching and try and realize why we "always have to make the conversation about us" when people write signs like "not all men but always a man," m'kay? Maybe that introspection will lead you to opinions like "rape is possible for women to commit, and it's bad when they do it too, AND we should speak for all victims of all genders or lack thereof, and against all abusers of all genders or lack thereof, rather than 'men bad women good nonbinary irrelevant.'"
Dude you’re desperately trying to make this about you and aiming all your complaints about society at me when I have done exactly nothing you describe.
Here we are, in a thread about a woman being raped, with you lecturing me about how much male rape matters. That just says everything right there.
If you think no one online talks about or cares about male rape then you just aren’t listening. It’s one of Reddit’s favorite topics. They never miss a chance to highlight male rape, and threads about it get 100x the love of those discussing the problem of rape by males. Your issue is, in a word, overrepresented if anything.
You matter. Your trauma matters. You really seem to need to hear that. But yeah your assault is not in fact interchangeable with that of women. Theirs is the result of systematic devaluing and oppression of women across our culture that makes assault almost inevitable. Yours is a deplorable act of violence but not continuous with the entire fabric of our society.
In other words, we’re set up to rape females. And so we’d better talk about that. What do we do to prevent much more rare and isolated incidents of violence? I’m really not sure how much we have to say about that.
Anyway I won’t reply again or read replies. It’s been said.
"Overrepresented"
"Always a man."
Yeah, I guess it has been said. Fuck me for calling out bullshit when I see it, I should just sit down and shut up again, huh?
Good, don't reply.
Its a shame an obviously inflammatory sign and clickbait seeking article image has made it so that the discussion is mostly off topic.
Its insane and the whole evil piece of shit that perpetrated his kink of having multiple people raped by omission and literal drugging and rape gets away from conversations by the obvious bullshit of absolutes is insane to me. how about no victim blaming on either side and recognition that rape is awful abuse of power dynamics that occur whenever its viewed as possible.
But also this post should probably be removed because that sign is meant to cause this kinda of angry response and it leads into a lot of hurt victims and happily ignorant people hand waving it away.
There were multiple people raped by omision?
Told that it was the wife's kink to pretend to be asleep and that consent was given earlier to be passed on since they would be roleplaying as soon as they got in the bedroom....
Fuck that's fucked up, typing out.
If stealthing is rape by altered consent then this certainly falls somewhere in that spectrum too.
Edit for a quote but yeah I mean this is a huge deal and full of insane testimony that should be the basis of this discussion.
Basically threesomes where 1 of the participants have not been given a chance to fully consent and 1 was given none. Because of 1 guy who enjoyed the power he felt.
The men didn’t care about the woman’s consent. They just wanted to fuck so they accepted whatever was said. They’re victims of their own bad judgment.
I think anyone practicing this kink knows to get proper consent before hand, a text message doesn't cut it. They knew exactly what was going on imo.
I would hope that to be true but know that it's not how life works. So maybe stop thinking you know who everyone else is and what they know.
Obviously the perpetrator knew and from testimony some others certainly did but not everyone thinks about their life so closely.
Hopefully it inspires more people to take vocal recorded consent and have safe words/actions but even then people will still be stupid because people don't know what they don't know.
Best we can educate others, pity (where possible), and hold accountable for their actions as needed.
Ok, wow, this is a fucked up thread.
I just came here to say "More power to her!", she's setting an incredible example and we need to turn back the misogyny and just general sexual violence that we've had in society since time immemorial.
My heart breaks for her. I'm glad she gets to see the support of those around her while going through this. And Jesus fuck, how can you even do that to someone? I just cannot wrap my mind of being able to hurt someone like that, and then to keep doing that, and just go on living life. I'm not religious, but I hope that man burns in hell.
My mom molested me when I was a child. Not always a man, and fuck that bitch for trying to pretend it’s so.
Yeah, a uni I went to had a sexual assault course everyone had to take, and the thing that stuck out was that the statistics on women were horrible, but the statistics on men being raped was not statistically far behind. It was something awful like three men in a classroom of 30 would have been victims of rape. On average.
The worst part is that a friend of a friend was actually held down and raped in a hotel by three people in the hallway. But he was so scared of being perceived as gay, he refused to talk to the police, his family, or get PEP for possible STD exposure. Men don't feel like they can come forward for male rape because they will be perceived as gay, and they won't report being raped by women because it's seen as being weak. Fucking horrible, and then the rapists get away and continually abuse people until someone finally breaks the chain. :(
Since you are in a thread that's about a women who has been victimized for 10 years by her own husband who she trusted and believed loved her, and raped by 50 plus men at his hand, I want to say, that many, many females also don't come forward because they know they won't be believed. They will also be perceived as weak, or whatever excuse rape apologists give. They asked for it. They dressed like a slut. They were walking too late at night alone. They drank too much and passed out which made them fair game.
It happened to my sister, my brother, my mother, my friends, it's happened to me, it's happened to about 13 other females off the top of my head that I know throughout my life.
It isn't only because a male will be perceived as gay that they don't come forward. That's a byproduct of homophobia. They don't come forward for many of the same reasons females don't come forward. They believe it's their fault., and they don't think other people will believe them. And also possibly they want to try to forget it ever happened, because it's so traumatic.
It's because other people don't want to see the truth, and that truth is that human beings are for the most part garbage. We want to pretend this awful crap doesn't happen on a regular basis but it does. It's not an outlier or abnormal, it's a fact of life for nearly most women and some men. It would be nice if no one could experience this.
Imagine being the victim of a female pedophile and seeing that sign
imagine taking this story, about where a woman was systematically drugged and raped for OVER 10 YEARS, and going "ah yes but what about the men?!?". I truly feel for the men in the comments sharing their stories, and I hope they continue to share and raise awareness, but Jesus y'all not the time
Let me ask you a question.
If this were about a gang of black people committing some crime, and as a protest someone was carrying a sign that said "not all black people, but always a black person" would you be telling people it's "not the time" to point out the obvious and blatant racism?
Take your own fucking advice. If men talking about their own rapes triggers you so, then you are the same crap you are crying about. You are sexist beyond belief.
It's never the fucking time for male abuse victims to speak up and tell their stories, we're always told to shut up and deal with it.
It's never time to break the status quo, even if it means liberation for those considered in minority groups (in this case people assaulted by women vs people assaulted by men). I'm paraphrasing a MLK article passed around a few weeks ago.
RIP MLK. All the love
If he were alive and protesting today you'd be whining about how white lives matter too and he's a racist asshole who thinks white people deserve to be lynched. Fuck off
Who are you referring to here? A specific person or Americans in general?
The person I'm replying to, though tbf I don't actually know if they're racist like that, but they and a lot of people in this comment section are speaking out against this protest about a woman who got raped constantly and rape culture against women and trying to make it about the issues men face. it's all very "I'm white and i got harassed by a cop, so this protest about police shooting a black child should be about me too"
I was molested by a woman as a child. That sign just makes me see red, I'm sorry if my trauma and triggers are inconveniently timed for you
Yeah exactly. I'm a man who was assaulted as a kid by a woman. Shit happens. But looking at what shit happens most often - it's sexual violence perpetrated by men against women.
I don't know how we change that. Maybe by continuing to level up the power dynamic between men and women, I feel like we've been making some progress with that over the past century. Finally. But it's more than that, there are too many idiot arseholes who think they can have anything their fists can beat down. Almost all of them are men.
Pretty much every girlfriend and female friend I've ever had has had bad experiences with men. Women I have cared about over the years have had experiences across the spectrum from cat calling and comments back when they were kids in school uniforms all the way through to stranger rape. Domestic violence isn't uncommon either.
I dunno, I wish I had a solution. It fuckin breaks my heart - when a close friend or a partner opens up about what happened to her and there's nothing you can do, it's years too late, you have these thoughts like if I'd been there I could have stopped it- but it happened years ago and you are fuckin helpless to do anything except maybe hug her if she's comfortable with that, or if not try to tell her it's over, she's safe and stronger now, whatever you think might help.
You don't realise how harmful sexual assault is until you've been unable to help someone you love. The key word isn't 'sexual', it's 'assault'.
Shit like that makes me fuckin ashamed to be a bloke. I don't know how we fix this, but I've got two suggestions for a good start - firstly, we don't do that shit. Never, there's never an excuse. Secondly, we fuckin shut down other guys, even if they're our mates, if they start with that sort of talk.
Yeah, there's wrong uns in whatever gender. But in terms of atrocity it's us men well in the lead. We gotta change that. I think we can at least fuckin try.
thanks for being one of the reasonable ones in this comment section lol. and it seems you're doing a pretty good job of trying to enact change. keep it up, it's a team effort :)
sorry to hear about your story as well, hope everything is going well for you now.
Cheers, yeah I've kinda grown into my own shit. It's caused me a lot of problems over the years, but I'm getting old now and I'm okay with stuff.
I'm just saying that anyone can get hurt like that, but it's mostly women getting hurt and it's mostly men doing the hurting. We've got to fuckin stop doing that because it is profoundly wrong.
Lol does it feel good that they literally called you "one of the good ones?"
Personally I think that's pretty wild, imagine saying that to a black person lol. I'd frankly be upset by that
if I were youwait I am upset about it lol, look at me being one of those uppity men again.They said reasonable ones, not good ones. Those words have two different meanings. Don't put words in their mouth.
Mmhmm, and if I told my friend (who is black, important note) that I like him because he's one of "the reasonable ones," that would be tooootally normal and not racist at all right? Right?
Ooooooooooooooooooookaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay
It's interesting to see what gets excused is all, but don't worry I'm sure you're one of the good ones.
Do you like piano solos arcane slime
Sure why not? Jazz is pretty sweet. You?
The problem is the sign in the thumbnail. It sure as good god fuck is not always men and you're a disgusting liar to claim that.
It's the same argument people made during the black lives movement by saying all lives matter. Of course all lives matter, but right now we are talking about black lives cause they are the ones hurting. Woman are the overwhelming majority of sexual abuse victims. We are talking about them right now. I say this as a male who was a victim of abuse by an older woman.
Talking about it is never a problem, but a sign that says "always a man" is factually wrong and invisibilising, it is more harmful than helpful. It's right to point it out, I think
This doesn't quite work. In fact, I think it's the opposite.
The way I heard it described, which really drove the point home, was that imagine you are at a table and the food is being passed around. Every time it gets to you, the food is passed right past you. Everyone has a full plate except you. You say "hey, I deserve my fair share!" and then some jamoke says "we all deserve our fair share." It's missing the point, because you currently aren't getting your fair share, and your unique plight is being ignored.
The sign in the case here is diminishing the fact that there are victims of females. They aren't saying "women are unique victims" here, they are saying "men are unique perpetrators."
Without the sign, this conversation doesn't happen. You should be on the side of everyone else here and should be saying "hey, keep your misandry to yourself, this is about female victims" but instead you're arguing "we should just let blatant misandry slide right now because we are talking about a female victim of a man." It would be like (as I said in another post) letting blatant racism in a protest slide because the perpetrator was black and the victim was white.
It's not the story in general, it's the "but always a man" that's objectionable.
Oh yes the ever ignored male rape victims who are indignant enough to speak up in the face of a sign like this aren't included in "the one's hurting" because you're literally ignoring their screams for help from the movement that is ignoring them almost harder than the rest of the world at large, by literally lumping male victims in with abusers and woman abusers in with victims, and then turning around and pretending we're the fucking problem for being mad about that.
It's not enough I have to be raped by two different women, I have to be treated like an inhuman unfeeling monster simply because I have a wiener while I watch my literal abusers be praised for being the right gender, and then when I say "hey maybe don't unfairly treat me as a pariah" I get told to sit down and shut up because "we're not talking about you right now?" Well guess what? We certainly are talking about me now whether you like it or not. I'm sick of it if I'm being perfectly honest and I'm not going to let people pretend I'm culpable for the actions of others any longer, nor will I let them silence me and excuse my abusers with signs like these.
I’m sorry for the abuse you’ve experienced and for how dismissed you may feel. Your pain is valid, and it’s important that it’s acknowledged.
Regarding the woman’s sign, it contains a false statement. However, she is just one person making that claim. While there may be others who share her view, they are a minority and don’t represent the majority of the movement or the core issue. My point is that signs like hers can distract from the broader discussion—that the vast majority of sexual assault and abuse victims are women, and now is the time to raise awareness about that.
Of course, men like you and I have been abused by women as well, and it’s essential that all forms of abuse are recognized and addressed. We must advocate for all victims. But in this moment, let's focus on standing behind the women who are survivors and show them our support.
This should be directed at the person waving the sign, not at the people pointing out the blatant misandry of it. She is the one making it about about the aggressors, while at the same time pissing on some victims.
You know good and well she's not the only person saying things like "all men," though she may be the first I've seen say "only men." Why are you lying? I've been a male victim of female abusers since years ago by now, you think I don't remember each and every time someone has said "shut up and sit down we're not talking about you right now?" I've lived this shit, you can't tell me it isn't happening when it happens constantly. And racists are in the minority too, should I not call out their bullshit when I see that too or is that fine because that isn't a belief you hold?
My point is that signs like hers distract from the broader discussion and that is why they should be actively discouraged even if they really don't care about us. Your point is that I'm the problem for having feelings about her sign or for voicing my opinions on it. Well, I disagree. This is exactly where my opinion belongs, right in defiance of that bullshit wherever it presents itself.
I'm not the one shifting the focus, "always men" is. I'd be all about it if the sign simply said "Justice for Gisèle Pelicot" or something. She chose to make the sign, and the website chose to prominently feature it, be mad at them. That's what I'm mad at, they are the ones that are attempting to erase male victims not Gisèle Pelicot, hell I stand with her too, I'm not just about male victims I'm the one in here begging for women to actually include male victims in the anti-SA movement ffs!
And have been asking for it for years by the way, only to always be told "sit down shut up it isn't your time you're only 4% you must've liked it anyway you're lucky you got laid quit being a pussy and complaining," at every fucking turn.
This 100%. If men being raped is such a massive issue to yall, make your own protest about it, don't shit on the protests of marginalized people bc they're fighting for their own rights and not yours
I think I would have more sympathy with those focusing on the "not all men but always a man" sign if this weren't in the context of a woman being drugged by her husband and then said husband inviting about 50 random men to rape her, over 10 years.
One of the worst times to advocate for men's rights/issues is when everyone is talking about the heinous crimes a bunch of men have done. Especially if the comments you're leaving are focusing on how women rape just as much as men do, etc.
I agree with you. Yes, this is not the time nor the place to go full on men's rights activism, 100% correct.
But if someone tells a rape victim his experience does not account because he part of the 4%, then nobody won anything at all, and I will speak my mind about such a heinous statement, the same way I will speak my mind about any one telling Woman shit like "It happened bc you dressed so seductive", "You sure he heard you saying No?"etc etc. .
Agreed. Unfortunately there's always gonna be a whataboutism as long as men feel unheard...
People can lose empathy when they think the world is ignoring them. It's taken me years to move on from people telling me to "man up" or "get over it" about my SA.
I really hope that at some point male victims of sexual assault will work to create a movement of support. It’s not ok that y’all get told to man up, and it’s not ok that y’all are often used as a way to shut down discussions of sexual violence against women.
Absolutely agreed.
Something I used to hear regarding feminism was that it also fought for men's rights even if indirectly for equality purposes. While I wouldn't say it's accurate of the movement now, I will say that it'd be a nice thing for men's rights groups to pick up. If these movements want to be heard then they must be willing to listen to the voices of women and be willing to bring their own to justice.
Yo, feminists have been leading the charge on shit like paternity leave (FMLA was feminists), battered men's shelters (now there's four! In the country!) and getting equality of rulings on spousal abuse or visitation rights. Don't buy into the alt-right BS about how the movement used to be good but now it's just full of all those self-centered women, and I only hate the current version. It's a really common line, and it's bullshit.
I'll be completely honest: I don't really know which organizations/movements are doing what these days. There's too much to keep track of. The groups where I am aren't particularly kind though. That's coming from my knowledge of an experience with a family member's divorce, so I apologize for being misinformed.
I just do what I think is right. It's all I have energy for.
As a modern feminist I think that’s one of the differences between the third and fourth waves. The third wave (and early second wave) had a strong emphasis on “feminism is for everyone” and was much more “theory based” if that makes sense. The fourth wave is generally understood to be defined by the era of mass social media. It’s been hardened by things like gamergate, the me too movement, and the rabid opposition to the third wave by reactionary men refusing to accept that it was the most pro man wave feminism saw. I don’t think it’s tactically wise or theoretically sound, but I get and feel the anger. That said I’m generally more pro third wave as a whole, including thinking bell hooks really understood how patriarchy negatively impacts men.
But yeah, modern feminist culture is jaded and angry, and for good reason. And I do agree that a men’s movement to deal with y’all’s issues would be incredibly helpful so long as you’re able to keep the reactionary voices out of it. Because from this woman’s perspective, a lot of men really need to develop friendships based on mutual care and understanding. Women can’t fix the malaise men are currently showing, and reactionaries can only make it worse.
50 codefendants in a case against one woman? How horrific.
Thank you to the French women doing this. However, since this is France, my biggest worry is this will be shot down with a big red flag/note saying:
Yeah Western Europe culturally not looking too clever these days re right wing shit. Not that America is doing any better mind.
Whole world is looking quite pathetic right now.
Husband aside, that's 50 separate people who thought this was okay. Ffs
Allegedly, they didn't. Multiple men were contacted through a swingers website, and allegedly led to believe she was a willing participant pretending to be asleep, instead of what she really was, the victim of a disgusting monster, drugged and undressed without her knowledge, for the pleasure of a sick monster.
To the point where one of her abusers, fully aware of what he did, wrote to her to apologize from jail, realizing what he had done under false pretenses, and aware that by not doing his due diligence, he raped her in the literal sense of the word.
I would hope that one that would be interested in this type of stuff would be meeting the affected party first :/
So would I, and I also wish nobody did meth. A lot of dangerous things have been normalized by many people, to the point where they get so used to them, that they seem normal and relatively harmless to them, only because their "normal" is so fucking far from the socially acceptable normal.
Because he said it was their kink to them.
Terrible fucking sign and tone deaf af
I'm so tired of walking into a post about women getting sexually assaulted and seeing a wall of "BuT WhAt AbOuT MeN!?!" comments. You people are so fucking stupid.
Edit: To the downvoters, please explain why you think it's appropriate to make a discussion about a woman being raped by 100+ men all about you. You're so fucking fragile.
Edit 2: Just an amazing lack of self awareness in these replies. Turns out some people really don't see a problem with hijacking a post about women being sexually assaulted to make it all about men instead. That's enough internet for today.
I'm not one of them, but the problem is the sign in the thumbnail. Without that I doubt it would've upset as many people.
If she held up a sign holding "all gays should die" would that be enough to talk about? A protest for a good cause is not a free pass to spread untruths. There are some men in this thread who were actually raped and you rail against them for sharing their story. The trial still goes on, it's not like people here are in favor of the rapists?
To use your inflammatory language: it's unbelievably stupid and fragile to believe you get to direct the contents of the topic. Let the adults talk
Imagine I'm selling a nice camera tripod but in the commercial people are beating each other to death with it. You walk into a Lemmy post about it and people are only talking about the ridiculous commercial. You gonna stand up and be like "Why isn't anyone talking about the product!?" like that's the real topic?
We're not in here talking about what happened. We're talking about the news. The news is saying my half of the population is bad because of their story which I'm half a world away from and have no reason to believe.
terminally online men try not to take a picture of a random sign in an otherwise unrelated article personally challenge (impossible)
guys always is an embellishment. it's almost funny that not all men became not always men. obviously not always men but if you think the numbers are comparable you're living in a fantasy land.
Most men never report, or if they do it's ignored. I've only told one person irl about the 2x it's happened to me (both times I was forced by women btw, how's that for "it's always men" hmm?)
MAYBE if whenever we claim "it's all men" or "it's always men" or some such sentiment "it always devolves into a discussion about how it's not all men," MAYBE it's time to stop doing that so the conversation can fucking progress? Nah let's keep up the tribalism, it's more fun to sow division than actually work on the issue at hand. Ffs.
I think it's more that as a non rapist I don't really take it personally when women talk about concerns about the general attitude they receive from men.
As a non-rapist, I'm sick of constantly being seen as a high-risk individual just for having a penis despite dedicating a lot of attention to consent and being generally a highly empathetic person.
People who know me well trust me and see me as a very safe and gentle person - but in the outside world, I'm equated with rapists around a random trait.
Well maybe it takes being raped by two different woman before you start feeling bad about being called a rapist for existing with penis despite being a victim. In any case your feelings are not universal and you don't get to minimize my experiences and tell me how to feel about being categorized with the aggressors while the people who raped ME are categorized with the "only victims who can do no wrong" gender.
this doesn't at all follow my comment so I assume you replied by accident. you're just airing grievances, which is your right, but it's a non sequitur.
Basically what I'm saying is, maybe you don't take it personally because you haven't been raped by women before, but I do take it personally because I have.
The numbers are also suppressed for men because we are not believed or taken seriously whereas women are typically believed by default.
The CDC - the largest medical org on the f**king planet - has clearly established that women rape men as frequently as men rape women:
We’re not the ones living in fantasy land -- you are, by either ignorance or malice. Which is your source of gender bigotry and misandry?
Ok, so not so men but 96% of perpetrators are men.
This very precise statistic comes from a single study made in bad faith, over 20 years ago. If you want to read a more recent study, with linked sources, feel free to check https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sexual-victimization-by-women-is-more-common-than-previously-known/
That percentage came from the 2021 report by the French government. This is not outdated information. And it's pertains to France not America.
I find it incredibly interesting that male victims are exclusively brought up in conversations about female victims, just as hate crimes against white people are exclusively brought up in conversations about hate crimes against African Americans, or how hate crimes against Christians are exclusively brought up in conversations about hate crimes against Jews and Muslims. If you use the pain of a group as a form of whataboutism then fundementally you do not care about their suffering, what you are doing is creating a competition that nobody will win. After you're finished using your group against another group do you truly care about them? I see many people here talking about male victims but how many people here support movements like mens liberation?
Yeah it's our fault we're upset about being lumped in with the "always men" abusers crowd while our rapists are lauded as "never abusers" on signage like this. How dare we be so uppity to engage our anger with that sign directly.
I'm literally in here saying "that sign is a lie and it makes me angry, as a male victim of woman rapists," we can talk about "stop raping men too" and "charge women for rape not just 'sexual assault' when they compel sex" later, right now we're talking about "don't erase us with signs like these, please fucking include us in the movement" and we probably won't stop doing that until it happens. Why must there be "I don't care about male victims" and "I don't care about woman victims" groups? Can't we just join forces as victims vs abuse?
For an exercise, check out other articles posted about Gisele's case, and look for comments about male victims. Most people just post in support of her, or in hatred of her abusers.
The reason why this conversation exploded on the topic was the picture chosen for it. It is meant to be divisive, drive engagement and thus, ad revenue.
We're all being farmed for engagement, which takes away from what is important, seeking justice without looking at genders.
That picture is very triggering to the many, many victims of rape with female perpetrators, especially if the victims are male, hence the outrage.
Yeah but I find it funny that those same people who say "well its not always a man" very often also say "well x is a minority therefore they shouldn't receive any representation whatsoever". In addition I would personally argue that most people here claiming to be victims are most likely lying (who knew people on the Internet could lie).
You're either trolling, or too far gone. I am saying "It is not always a man", and I would never keep representation away from someone just for being a minority, or associate with people who behave like that.
And honestly, I find it appalling, that you jump to assume people claiming to have been raped here are most likely lying, and wonder if you would say that to a woman who claims to have been raped.
And if for you, that hinges on gender alone, you would have to be either extremely thick, or simply arguing in bad faith to ignore how sexist that is.
Im saying that theres a difference between someone coming out in public and a bunch of random people on a forum who are attempting to make a point. Also my point about those people actively silencing minorities wasn't directed at you.
That's one hell of a strawman to invent and ascribe to folks who have no whiff of implying minorities shouldn't receive representation.
Instead of thinking of it as competition, think of it as people simply reminding others that "all rape is bad" or "all hate crimes are bad".
Thats like saying all lives matter specifically after an African American gets brutally killed by a cop. Obviously all lives matter but its simply not the time nor place when the conversation was about hate crime against African Americans. In this case its absolutely distasteful to say "all rape is bad" when the topic is specifically about a female victim and a male perpetrator.
And yet, what no-one wants to face is the fact that women rape men as frequently as men rape women:
I mean, yes - let’s lock up convicted rapists. But if 50%of cross-gender rapists are women yet almost 100% of convicted rapists are men, there’s some seriously weapons-grade gender bigotry at play, there.
A legal system that is truly based on equality should see about a 50/50 split of male/female rapists convicted, and for largely equal time served as well.
I think you are hand-picking numbers here. The most current CDC Report on Intimate Partner Violence does not support your claims. https://www.cdc.gov/nisvs/documentation/NISVSReportonIPV_2022.pdf
The report you picked excludes quite a lot of victims as it's about intimite partner violence which it defines as:
For the full numbers not just for intimate partners you want this report https://www.cdc.gov/nisvs/documentation/nisvsReportonSexualViolence.pdf which confusingly has the same title. It states 2.3% of women raped in a 12 month timeframe and 0.3% of men being raped and 1.3% made to penetrate in the same timeframe, so 1.6% of men either raped or made to penetrate.
So for the first study, I have my emotionally abusive ex that would threaten suicide (at the drop of a hat, but also) when I wasn't in the mood, and for the "full numbers" there's the two women I never dated that raped me. Huh, neat. I wonder why the only three abusive women to exist in the world chose me. Couldn't be that it's more common than people think or anything, no waaaay.
I took a look at the CDC report. Those comparable numbers are only about the 12 months preceding the survey which is, while probably statistically significant, not the whole story. It's interesting to see why there's a jump in those numbers for the 12 months preceding, but otherwise if you look at lifetime numbers women are victimized at significantly higher rates than men.
that's being penetrated, I think it doesn't include being made to penetrate, which is covered in other forms of sexual violence.
side note: I don't know how the article got numbers for "being made to penetrate" specifically, the CDC article doesn't seem to specifically say it. maybe I skimmed it wrong. I only saw the 1.6% of men reporting "unwanted sexual contact" in the last 12 months, which is compared to the women reporting at 2.2% of women, which is while still almost 40% higher, closer than lifetime experiences which are estimated at 27.3% vs 10.8%. Guess which is which.
This includes being made to penetrate and other things, again if you can find where the 1.6% comes from please let me know.
this is interestingly one of the categories where it is not as close in the last 12 months: women's rate double men's. not central to my overall point but it is surprising because if anything I expected this to be closer than other categories, considering social media making stalking easier. just a note.
here's an interesting part about "always a man":
women are predominantly predated by men in all forms, but men are predominantly made to penetrate and coerced by women (I guess this is expected more than men would be doing this?), while penetrated predominantly by men (I guess obvious) and suffering other forms of sexual predation including stalking by a relatively even rate of men and women.
That sounds like it all comes pretty close to "always a man".
Right, in many municipalities it's impossible for a woman to be charged with rape for forcing someone to have sex with them through coercive means. Until that is no longer the case "men rape more than women" is like saying "you're more likely to starve without food." No shit, because definitionally woman legally cannot be charged with rape for raping.
You see how that skews the data, right? Sure "it's all men" if you don't count the women, why would that surprise anyone?
those cases are not relevant here. the data we're talking about is not skewed. they cover all these other situations independent of municipality. also these are not numbers on reported cases (they're included in the study) but estimated actual numbers.
With how unlikely men are to report (or sometimes, they don't even realize they have been raped), I'm not sure how they can accurately estimate.
In any case, making it a gendered issue and lumping me, a victim, in with the perpetrators simply because I was born with a penis, and lumping my rapists in with the victims because they were born with vaginas, isn't what I call "cool." I'd much prefer if we made it a victims VS victimizers thing, rather than a men VS women thing, personally.
Furthermore this whole "women can't rape men" thing needs to be fixed. I simply will not have the conversation about "who rapes who more" until it is fixed, by acknowledging it as a legitimate law I am erasing my own experiences and enabling others to do so.
How's that relevant? It looks at one year and within that year the number of rape/made-to-penetrate victims is roughly equal for men and women. Unless there was something unusual happening that year or the same men are made to penetrate more often then women get raped, then if you extend the timeframe the numbers should change similarly for men and women.
From the 2011 study in the Results section:
wow, your argument really becomes impenetrable once you concede to "unless"es and "if" and "should"s.
there is an extended timeline. it's called lifetime. and it tells a different story.
about the stats: thanks for finding it, I mixed the numbers and was looking for the 1.6% ... anyway, looking for lifetime numbers, if you compare women who have been raped vs men who were raped and made to penetrate combined, the numbers add up to 19.3% of women vs 1.7+6.7 = 8.4% of men assuming zero overlap. that's still more than double the rate of men.
in the same section for sexual violence other than rape, women's rates nearly double men's in lifetime numbers. again for some reason much closer in the 12 months preceding.
sexual coercion: 12.5% vs 5.8% lifetime (more than double) and not that close in the 12 months as other categories, 2% vs 1.3% (1.5x approximately)
etc etc...
I don't know what the fuck happened between 2010 and 2011 but the numbers for that year do not reflect lifetime experiences of people at all. it makes no sense to disregard the extended timeline and instead use the snippet to extrapolate.
The share may differ - I'm not aware of it being equal and you bring up interesting stats right there - but regardless, men can absolutely be victims of all kinds of abuse, and we have to treat it seriously.
Yes, men forced to do what they don't like or coerced to have sex is rape, and same for women.
Some American jurisdictions can’t even properly report a male victim of rape or sexual assault because their software is hard-coded to assign the victim as female and the perp as male.
Plus, the vast majority of men have been brainwashed into thinking that it is impossible for a woman to rape a man. So many of them don’t even see their rape as a rape, and frequently blame themselves.
And for the cherry on top, male rape victims can and frequently are forced to pay child support to their rapist if a child is conceived, thereby further traumatizing them. This happens even if the male victim was a minor - upon their 18th birthday they are hit with tens of thousands in arrears, and face jail time if they cannot immediately begin paying. Imagine - jailing a rape victim for the product of their rape!!
Think of how this would go down if the genders were swapped, and then ask yourself: why isn’t it going down like that as it currently is?
Because men don’t matter. Because men are trivially disposable. Because if men cannot provide something of value, they are worse than useless: they are a threat to society and need to be violently coerced into being useful. It’s why so many men are saying, “thanks, but no thanks” to the various “traditional” societal expectations of them (career, marriage, and even relationships entirely), and are going their own way. And I don’t blame them one bit.
I follow you, until the last part.
"Men don't matter", "women don't matter" - those statements often seem to imply that the other gender is dominant and treats the other as disposable. This is not true - both men and women heavily suffer from bias, discrimination, and abuse - both in their own ways.
Traditional expectations hurt everybody, men and women, and should be thrown out the window. This includes a traditional concept that men are always perpetrators but not victims of abuse, among other things - something that is still commonly ignored, sometimes out of genuine ignorance, sometimes in bad faith.
I have never heard that, anywhere within the last half a century. A statement like that would be seen as misogyny of the highest order, and would have the speaker publicly crucified on the altar of public opinion.
I mean, sure - it might be uttered in dark, hidden, ChristoFascist corners, but that isn’t spoken anywhere in public like the statement “kill all men” is widely lauded and celebrated by female supremacists.
Then why have women been allowed to disgorge almost all of theirs, while men are being constantly nailed to the wall for theirs?
Women have been able to nearly completely release the “homemaker” status (yay! - honestly), but a man who wants to be a homemaker will nearly always remain a life-long bachelor. Having a prestigious, well-paying career (or, at least, the potential for one) is nearly always a woman’s first consideration in a man.
If a career-oriented man can (and frequently do) wife up some minimum-wage barista with oodles of student loans, why do career women almost always only look above their current economic level for mates? Because that is a reinforcement of traditional expectations.
Things along the lines of "women don't matter" are commonly spoken by feminists much the same way you said a similar thing about men - as a statement that this gender group is a victim of modern society.
You wouldn't hear "men don't matter" in another context, either.
And I'm not saying that the pressure of traditional expectations is equal on women vs men, I don't have what it takes to compare, so I won't even try. I just state they hurt everyone, and you don't have to sink one to raise the other.
And yet - facts and evidence. In a western society, those are severely lacking from their argument, whereas the flip side is bleeding out everywhere. Hell, a saucy jaunt through any dating service - online or meatworld - is a severe cognitive dissonance to anyone trying to shill the “women don’t matter” bullshit, as beyond the top-2% of men, women have ALL the power in the dating world.
I just thank the fates that I left the dating scene behind me almost three decades ago. From what I can see, things have gotten much, much worse for men since then, and it was already horrid back then.
Then there is the gender sentencing gap in the legal system, which is three times larger than the wealth sentencing gap, and seven times larger than the racial sentencing gap. And no, this is taking into account the exact same crime with the exact same damages.
Yes, in the dating sphere women do wield more power. They, however, are also more common victims of stalking, more commonly chased by men they never asked for.
Sentencing gap is also very real.
But then there's a pay gap, lower representation in politics (and also patriarchal traditions of diplomacy requiring high-ranking female politicians to show themselves as rough and cold to uphold their image), the common expectation to bear and rise children almost singlehandedly (despite also having to work full-time), etc. etc.
Women still face many real issues, and so do men. It's just that men's rights is a newer concept and it takes a lot of effort to overcome things that are sometimes as basic as the right to refuse sex.
In the context of this post this is disgusting to bring up.
This doesn't have any bearing on what this old lady was put through.
In the context of this comment section, and the image that was chosen to lead the article, it is not disgusting and it simply makes sense.
She is a fucking hero, she is brave and she gives hope to us rape victims. But if on the same breath you praise her and the people who support her, and dismiss a fuckton of rape victims just because the perpetrators of their particular rapes were women, then that is bound to raise a significant level of discomfort and take away from what the story should be, giving support to the victim of The Beast of Avignon and all rape victims, encouraging them to come forward.
Go make your own post about male victims then.
So basically, "not all men and not all women" should have been the slogan in the first place.
Yes. That is a very even and equal statement that properly balances the reality of the situation.
But equality was never their goal. That’s why those who have rationally and logically studied the ideology call the practitioners female supremacists, and are likely to call themselves egalitarianists.
Wow. That was remarkably mask off. You watch a lot of Ben Shapiro, buddy?
Ben Shapiro is a moron. And so is pretty much anyone who has ever punted the “alpha male” narrative.
What I do, exclusively, is listen to what “feminists” say, and compare it to not only reality, but also how any flip-side examples for men are perceived. From there it is clear that the ideology is one of gender supremacy. There is no other possible interpretation, because there is no equality in their objectives. Any “benefits” that men accrue from feminism are purely by happenstance and lucky accident, but the foundation and exclusive intent of any one incident has always been female-first and almost always to the intentional exclusion of men.
And what does that mean, you fill a document with feminist phrases and ctrl+v over every word 'woman' the word 'man'? That is... wow, that is incredibly academic. I'm actually hit-stunned by how smart that is.
If that’s the best you can come up with, then you are just as bad as Ben Shapiro.
Oddly defensive response you have.
Fuck off. I was abused by my mother. She looks like the kind of trash that would holf a sign like that.
Oh shit the MRAs are out in force in this thread 🙄
Real Redditor kinda behaviour going on here tbh.
This is only natural because the post features a picture of a woman holding a highly misandric and hugely misleading sign.
Besides, it's one of the rare venues to talk of what's important. And when there actually are rare posts or comments regarding abuse of men, many women flock in as well to tell about women rights.
Where is all this passion for male victims of rape when people aren't protesting the rape of a woman or women in general?
This is a rhetorical question
Edit: nevermind, I think I misread that.
Anyone dug up statistics of how many rapes of women are by women? No?
your argument is just like the racist douchebags that argue "all lives matter" when "black lives matter".
the case in this point is about a man raping a woman so, of course, the protests are about male sexual aggression.
yes, people in general are trash and can be horrible to other people.
yes, I'm calling you out for driving a what-about-wedge into the thread.
yes, I would do the same thing to someone who would drive the same wedge if this case was about a woman raping a man.
just because you can say it, doesn't mean you should say it. there's a time and place and all you do by whining about it here is desensitize people against female sexual aggression.
want to make a difference? talk about the 1 out of 6 woman that are victims of rape. or how about the fact that 54% of the victims are between the ages of 18-34. let's not forget that a rape occurs every 68 seconds(4 victims were raped in the time it took me to write this whole comment).
Why? Cos I'm pretty sure it's going to be lower than the number committed by men.
Less than men is not the same as “always by men.” I think that’s what people take issue with.
Right, this story about a woman being drugged and raped repeatedly by strangers for years - and people are taking issue with the fuckin semantics on one sign in a crowd photo? Yeah, that's the problem, right there.
Well it’s certainly not helping matters.
Whoever put that specific image in the article embed did it specifically because they knew it would generate this type of argument among people and therefore increase traffic to the article. Y'all got baited.
Exactly