Remote or hybrid workers, would you rather work a 4 day week on site, or WFH completely for 5 days a week, for the same pay?

SomeoneElse@lemmy.ca to Asklemmy@lemmy.ml – 128 points –

I know this will vary a lot, so hypothetically let’s say you currently WFH/work remotely at least 3 days a week. Your commute to work takes an hour max (door to door) each way. If you were given the choice of a 4 day week working onsite, or a 5 day week WFH (or as many days as you’d like) for the same pay, which would you choose?

138

WFH. Unless I also get paid for commute time. Then, still WFH. Fuck traffic. This way, I'm neither dealing with it nor contributing to it.

I can go to the store or get some cleaning done on my lunch break, and I don’t have to spend time driving to do it. Fuck traffic.

Same for me. Time spend getting to work is basically also work time, which is usually not paid.

For a "fun" experiment just calculate how many hours you are on the way to work every year:

daily_travel_minutes * days_on_site / 60

Divide this by 8 to see how many holidays you get by switching to a fully/mostly remote job.

Don’t just count the actual journey time either - you have to factor in any extra time needed to get ready, parking, getting to or from the train and bus station, and any delays or traffic. If google maps tells you your commute takes 30 mins, it’s taking you 45 at least.

Yes, I described that unprecisely. You basically have to calc the difference between a full remote day and an on site day.

4 days in the office = 5 days remote considering getting ready + commute + not being able to do life admin in your breaks + cost of fuel and food...

The 4 day work week should be standard anyway, remote or not.

I'm pretty good on commute time. It was a 5-10 minute drive or a 25-30 minute walk. I've stuck there for years because working for any of their competitors are in the area and I'd have to go straight to an hour each way minimum.
I wouldn't mind going back in part time, if the hybrid office environment itself wasn't so hostile to actually working, with sterile hot desks and everyone having loud overlapping conversations in their respective virtual meetings.

The commute time is kinda worse than work time, so the 4 days in the office are equal to 5 days WFH timewise. And I would still be missing out on benefits like cheaper lunch at home and wearing comfortable clothes, and not being tired all the time. On the other hand, I would always have 3 day weekends.

Yeah, count time getting ready and you're easily wasting 1.5-2 hrs a day going to an office.

When we started wfh, most people picked up overtime and still spent the same amount of time devoted to work with a significant pay increase.

It's a lot of time and effort everyone was just used to giving up for free. Why go back to it?

Especially since it's 2023 and we're still getting new COVID waves.

The time spent getting ready would be a big factor for me.

I work full time from home. Fridays almost never have any big meetings or important deadlines, so if you need to knock off early and beat the vacation traffic, it's not a problem. And all the little things you usually reserve for a day off, like doctor's or dentist's appointments or a haircut, any of that can happen during the week without missing a beat. You don't always need a 3 day weekend, but when you want one, you take one.

It’s the same for my partner. I don’t think he’s worked past 3pm on Fridays in the 7 months he’s been there. There’s just nothing going on.

WFH for 5 days will still result in less time spent doing dumb shit I don't want to do than RTO for 4. That doesn't even count the pomodoro breaks I take where in the office I can't do anything but walk in circles but at home I can start laundry or prep for dinner.

That was the best part of WFH for me. I could start a brisket in the morning and baby it all day long.

I legit have a pork shoulder dry brining rn for tomorrow. I know an electric smoker isn't quite the same as a proper charcoal offset rig but my setup means I can do bbq any day I want to

Full remote.

I actually like going into the office ~2x per week. But tell me I have to and bump it to 4 days, I'm out. I also do not want my colleagues forced on site. My current ~2x/week is as productive as it is because the other people going on site now are there voluntarily and for specific reasons.

I feel like we're at the point where WFH workers can work from home for four days for more pay.

I mean workers feel like that, but employees and governments don’t seem to. And the propaganda against WFH is still going strong.

I'm just trying to do something small to change the cultural milieu so that folks don't feel that work has to come with some sort of punishment attached to it. It's nothing personal, I'm just being a pedant. Have a good one!

I'm sure the masses of work from home employees really love that dream and you'll struggle to have anyone argue against this popular pipe dream. I'll try to be devil's advocate to challenge the Lemmy echo chamber.

I personally don't deserve more pay because I get "more done" from home. I deserve more pay because I've improved over the last couple of years. My managers dont bug me any less because I'm WFH, in fact if anything I am able to slack off more because no one is constantly watching me which is great for my health but bad for my "maximum potential" (I don't care about max potential because I'm paid to do a job and I can do that job on 60-80% effort).

Between tasks on a workday I can do my clothes washing, play a new quest in my game, go for a run or watch an episode of the lastest program I'm interested in. These are the things I would do on my "extra day off" anyway so why not do them while you're working now?

I think you have it all wrong, if I went back into the office then I would demand more pay because it takes more of my time. If you want more pay and less time, put in less effort at home.

Maybe I'm an outlier because I'm one of the few people who are happy with their salary and not obsessed with earning more all the time.

I originally wanted to go back to the office because I'm a weirdly social person. Eventually my work told us to come in 3 days a week. They told us "it's the best of both worlds!" That's when I realized that hybrid is actually the worst of both worlds. I don't get to have a consistent daily routine. I have to constantly lug all my equipment back and forth between work and home. I don't get a dedicated desk. Everyone is coming in just to take virtual meetings from their desk all day, so it's really loud. I would rather everyone be at work 5 days a week than three, because then we would all be there, so meetings would be in person again.

My manager rebelled against upper management and had us just come in one day a week, and honestly, I think that's fine. We just don't get hardly any work done that one day. But we are seeing each other's faces, which is what upper management wants. They say it's good for team building and collaboration, and I see the merits in that.

Half the team still doesn't even do that. I mean, one member of the team lives 2000 miles away from the rest of us. One has a newborn baby. One has kids that she needs to pick up from school at 3 every day. Another guy has worked at the company for like 15 years and just refuses to come in because he knows they won't fire him. Another guy is 2 months away from retiring, so what's the point?

So, even if the company wanted you to come in 3 days a week, what was stopping you from commiting to the whole 5 days? I don't think a company would say no if someone wished to go to the office even more often.

We're doing hybrid too where I work, but I still go in 5 days a week, even if that means there are times (generally Monday and Friday) when there aren't as many people around.

It wouldn't have any benefit if I personally did come in 5 days a week. I would still need to lug my stuff around because I still wouldn't have a permanent desk, as the company doesn't have enough for everyone anymore and doesn't allow anyone to have permanent desks. People would still be loud on calls, because just because I'm in the office 5 days a week doesn't mean anyone else is.

If the company's policy was to have everyone come in 5 days a week, these issues would be resolved. But of course they would need to add more desks first. They ripped out a whole floor of desks for some reason, but I'm not sure why.

I need to go into the office to be productive. I don't begrudge anyone that wants to work from home, I wish it worked for me, but it doesn't. During the pandemic I was 100% work-from-home and got very little done. I actually asked my boss how long it would be until we could go back to the office. Donkey-brains chose that time to upgrade the office furniture and shampoo the carpets. It was another month until the office was open. I went back, and it was heaven. There were very few people there. I could sit at my desk, listen to my music, and do whatever I needed. Don't ask me what the difference was. Maybe I just have an affinity for flickering fluorescent tubes.

Same here. I don't trust myself to work productively at home.

Like you, I was just more productive in an environment that's not my home. There were a few times when they allowed us back in the office and only 3 of us showed up. Big empty office with the feeling that I can work at my own pace yet couldn't get too comfortable because it's still a professional workspace, it was perfect.

I've been WFH full time since early covid, so WFH for sure. My commute wasn't even bad, my office is less than 10 minutes away.

I'm not a social person so there is no upside to going into the office for me. Everything to do with my job must be communicated by email so it's documented, so it's just a waste of time if someone wants to chat in person or on the phone about it.

Plus I don't have to wear pants.

The one downside is my dogs seem to have developed separation anxiety since I'm around all the time.

I feel really sad for all the doggos that were bought as lockdown puppies.

Not sure if you understood the question, you'd work just 4 says a week onsite (and in total). You'd have one extra day free.

...yes, and? I don't want to work on site. My WFH schedule is flexible enough that I don't need an “extra day free”. I don't think it's worth it. Working fewer days isn't always better for everyone.

I will never commute again, ever. I'd rather work four days a week in my pajama pants and one day pantsless (Casual Friday) than waste my time schlepping my brain through meatspace.

Oohh I might have to implement that pantsless Casual Friday policy.

For me. 100% remote.

But I work more for objectives rather than gross time/days. If the project is falling behind I work extra to gain some safeguard. If the project is going well I work more relaxed.

I don't mind working extra hours if I'm already saving a lot of time avoiding travelling to the client or going to the office, living in another place away from a city. Etc.

I don't want to go in to the office. The pay doesn't include the extra commute time, plus getting dressed up slightly nicer.

I live alone. I don't have kids. Home is fine.

The office is loud. Often the wrong temperature. I get interrupted a lot. I don't get as much done on the tiny monitor they provide vs the big ass 4k ones I have home.

Some people are really not great at responding on slack though. If they could get on my level that would be nice.

Not even a question for me: full remote or bust. The extra day off wouldn't make up for all the time wasted just from the pageantry of going to and being at an office.

I am WFH full time now.

My commute was, at best, 30 minutes each way. Weather or traffic can easily drive up this time. So at least an hour a day. Being in the office 4 days/week = 4+ hours commuting and all the headaches of driving, parking expense, car expenses, etc. I was much less productive in the office so I think it actually hurts my work to be in the office.

I'd prefer to drop the commute and be more productive. My employer will get MORE than 8 hours of work with that arrangement.

Yeah I think it’s very easy to underestimate your commute if you only consider the journey time. Like you said, you also have to consider parking or getting to the bus/train, getting from the car/train/bus station to your actual office, any traffic or delays… and there’s the getting yourself ready time. It’s not uncommon for my partner to roll out of bed at 8.50 to start at 9am!

Front door of your place to desk in the office seems like a good measurement, right?

For a while my parking ramp was 3 blocks from my office. I appreciated the exercise but it took at least 10 minutes. So 30 minute drive plus 10 minute walk.

Significant expenses are also mostly ignored. Buying, powering and maintaining a vehicle is not cheap nor is parking in many places. Work clothes are not free.

I think it would be interesting to do a really detailed analysis of the differences between WFH and in office. There's probably more we're not covering.

I work hybrid and had my car totalled by a dear not long before I landed my current role, and my wife's a stay at home mom. We stopped looking for a car because my wife can either drop me off if she needs the car on one of my in-office days or she can walk with the kids. We save a good chunk of change by sharing one car!

Imagine if a vehicle actually cost the IRS mileage rate. Adds up VERY quickly.

Front door of your place to desk in the office seems like a good measurement, right?

If everything prior to you exiting your front door is identical between WFH and commuting, then yes. But if you spend more time getting ready to go into the office than you do for WFH, then I think you have to count that getting ready time as well.

Definitely. Before going into the office I’d shower, do my hair, put in contacts, put on a little bit of make up and wear clean and ironed work clothes. If I were working at home, having a bath or shower at some point in the day and wearing clean clothes is about it. Even if I decided to do my hair and make up, I’d probably do it in working hours between meetings - the time I would have wasted talking to co workers or staring out the window if I was in the office.

In response to your question, I'd like to share my personal experience regarding remote work. I have been working entirely remotely for years, and given this background, I cannot imagine returning to an office setting, even if it was just for one day a month.

The primary reason is tied to time and quality of life. If my office were an hour away from my home - and in reality, it's even further - I would be committing 8 hours a week just for commuting. This effectively means that in terms of hours, I'd still be tied to a five-day work commitment when considering the commute time.

But beyond the simple tally of hours, there are aspects of daily life and routine to consider. On the days I'd be expected to be in the office, I would have significantly less time to spend with my son. This would majorly impact our daily routine. We wouldn't get the chance to have lunch together, and the management of daily commitments would become much more complex.

In conclusion, given my background and personal priorities, I would unquestionably choose to continue working from home five days a week rather than commuting to the office for four days. The flexibility and time saved from commuting hold invaluable worth to me.

I took WFH for higher pay in 2013. It makes sense because I'm more productive without the noise, uncomfortable lighting, interruptions and subpar hardware.

Not conidering going back to office unless things change A LOT

WFH every time, I'm not going back

I work in a job where working from an office doesn’t make sense. So I’ve always wfh. In my current role, I’d never work for any employer that required me to go to an office. It’s counter productive to the job.

In your scenario, if I had a job that made sense, I’d pick wfh because I won’t commute an hour. 15-30 is the tops I’ll commute.

I’ve seen a couple of people say they wouldn’t commute more than 20 mins - I wasn’t expecting that tbh. I’m from London and an hour commute, door to desk, is pretty standard. Even my journey to secondary school took 45mins at the very least!

30 is about as far as I’ll go. Maybe 45. I haven’t communted for work in years. I know people who commute hours and I’d never do it.

Time has value. If I’m spending hours commuting, that’s time lost.

We WFH and have a "no meetings on Monday and Fridays" policy.

So people could hypothetically not work those days.

Doesn't bother me as long as the tasks get done.

Both. Studies have shown that WFH actually INCREASES productivity, and other studies have shown that a 4 day work week doesn't decrease productivity at all either. It sounds unlikely but it's true. So both are a win-win for the worker and company alike.

You wouldn’t have a preference either way?

I'm saying why even figure out a preference when both are good for everyone involved?

Because that’s my question? I’m interested in workers’ preferences, not which option is more productive. Like you say, both are better than 5 days a week on-site. But despite both equating to around the same amount of time in total for the same pay, in practice the two options are pretty different.

Because that’s my question?

You asked a question on the internet and didn't expect an ' inclusive or?'

You're going to get a simple yes every time for top comment lol.

You'll also get neithers. Then you'll get trolly problems, then the politics... You know how it goes.

Which would you prefer; A or B?

  • Yes

  • A and B are stupid

  • OP is stupid

  • I hate A and B, and OP, and this website. Go fuck yourself.

Wonderful.

People liked to hate on reddit for it devolving into that. But the opposite extreme was Tildes which was all text based. Fediverse is thriving though which is the closest to reddit. Yes, comments will be like reddit. Pick and choose when people are open for discussion.

Puns and Memes will always be top content for a reason. Most people are looking for a quick 15 minute distraction, not a book club.

I moderate a couple of communities that fit that criteria - you can have a discussion but ultimately they’re just mildly amusing screenshot/photo communities. Initially the comment section was much much more friendly here than Reddit but I’ve definitely noticed a decline recently, say the last 2 weeks. Some of the messages I get when I warn people not to insult others are becoming unhinged. I know it’s bound to happen, lemmy is still the internet. But I had hoped for a place where people didn’t call each other fucking dickheads for having a different opinion.

I’m 100% WFH, my commute is about 30 mins each way, and I like the social aspect of going into the office, but 5 days remote all the way.

4 days on-site, same pay, same 40 hours per week? No. I don't work 10hrs a day + 2hrs of driving. So 5 days remote in this case!

4 days on-site, same pay, 32 hours per week? Sure, why not? I'll use the driving time with audio books or reading during a train commute.

Sorry, that wasn’t very clear. 32 hours a week in the office (plus ~8 hours a week commuting time) or 40 hours a week WFH for the same pay.

I think I’m the long run, if those were the only 2 options (unlikely) employers wins with the 4 day and employees win with the wfm. Why? Short term, employers will say it’s the same pay but eventually after a few reviews, they will claw back the raises citing the reduced work hours.

It’s just common sense if you put yourself in hr shoes reviewing the compensation numbers.

"claw back the raises"??

What? How? At least in my country an employer cannot unilaterally worsen a contract for the employee. You don't have to agree to less pay and they'll be bound by the original agreement. Sure an employer could "fire and rehire" you, but you also don't have to agree to the rehiring.

If they do that you'll get full unemployment, probably some severance and they are instantly a worker short.

WFH hands down. I would get two hours of each week day back that I spend commuting.

I simply wouldn't take a job with a one hour per way commute. Takes me 15-20 minutes max, and one less work day a week sounds sweet.

Commute time for 4 days is typically more than 1 whole work day.

My commute would need to be 45 minutes or less, and even then half the year said commute involves wading through snow, so, no thanks.

Full time WFH is a big yes. Too many offices aren't easy to commute to, to save money on rent. My last job did t even have a sidewalk to get there, the last 2 blocks to it were your choice of walking on the road itself, or wading through knee deep snow.

I would waste more time going to work four times in a week than I would get back by dropping Fridays. I'm never going back to the office.

Work from home for me. 4 day work week would be nice, but nothing beats downtime during work at home. Playing a video game doing some chores or even a quick shower all things that get looked at strangely in an office but at home

"hey I'm just waiting for this thing, lemme hit the shower right quick to refresh myself" " Sounds good"

10 minutes later something else to do or someone to help out.

Plus. I'm not the biggest fan of wearing clothes. Those are optional at home.

Seriously, everyone looks at me funny when I take my soap and my rubber ducky out to the garden hose outside the office. I don't get it.

Hybrid work is idiotic. Remote all the way. Why do I need to travel two hours both ways to work at the same computer I can access from my bedroom? Even in office most meetings take place on teams anyway.

I will never go back to commuting for free

I'm fully WFH right now. Company policy leaves office attendance to each team, although almost no one is expected in full time as they've shed a significant number of desks. The pandemic is the reason it went that far but they were headed for hot desking and partial WFH in late 2019 anyway.
Personally, I'm not expected in at all except for monthly (local) team briefings, because the scheme I'm working on is based in an office at the other end of the country, and so I'd be remote working regardless of visiting "my" office.

WFH suits me, but to be honest I do sometimes wish I could go in. I miss having people to idly chat to, but I can't. The office I want to return to isn't there any more. I used to have my own desk, set up my own way, with neighbours from my (discipline) team, co workers and friends.

Now it's a sea of souless hot desks, each identical to the next, same shitty misaligned monitors plugged into the same cheap hub, no dividers at all (it wasn't quite cubes before, but there were half height dividers that absorbed some of the noise) resulting in an almighty din. Those friends who didn't retire, quit or transfer might be sat near me, but probably won't. I can't even get a coffee unless I plan ahead because they no longer stock non-dairy because apparently it's too much trouble now they don't know who's coming in when.

Eventually I'll have to give up my home office because it will be needed as a bedroom, and I'll have to go in, but until that day I'll stay where I am.

Well articulated thoughts. Such a huge difference between a nice office in a good location with a team you like working with, vs shitty hotdesking vs WFH.

WFH is great for flexibility, but I don't need that everyday. I enjoy the commute to work. 90mins of free exercise cycling in, and a nice way to reflect on your day.

Could happily go back to a local team with a nice office. But could never do hotdesking.

In your scenario? WFH. I like my work and hate traffic.

If I lived five minutes away from the office like I used to? I'd go in, assuming they'd let me be flexible with my time. I like being in the office. My coworkers are great and if I get burned out on what I'm doing I can go play with the hardware in the lab.

In real life? I live 100 miles from the office and work from home. I miss the comradery and being able to just walk down the hall and kick a piece of malfunctioning equipment directly though.

Good point. If your 4 days a week onsite are flexible that might entice more people. I think it’s the rigidity that a lot of people dislike, because life just doesn’t work like that. But I can’t work myself so I can only imagine.

With my current job, remote. My company moved from being a 20 minute commute to a 1.5 hour commute. The four days commuting would cost me 12 hours vs 8 hours for the extra work day remote.

Even my old half hour commute... I think I would still take the remote. My position is very flexible, so I can get offline a little early and do something with my son, then wrap things up in the evening if I need to. That is a lot easier with being remote.

I went back to 5 days a week in office in summer 2021. I hated it when I was told but now I'm glad it happened. I walk 2 miles each way to work. That walk is one of the nicest parts of my day. I get crazy paranoia when I can't speak to people face-to-face, and I can maintain a routine. I appreciate I am lucky in my situation but I would take the 4 days and enjoy a long weekend where I can properly unwind

1 day doesn’t make much of a difference for me, so I’ll still take the 5 WFH days. It’s still a much better use of my time when you total all the time saved from commuting and being able to run errands/chores while WFH vs. being in the office for 4 days. 3 days though? Maybe I’ll consider it.

First of all, thanks for the question, I think it's really interesting and I'm sorry that some people are responding with so much hostility.

If I commute 2 hours a day and work 5 days a week, that works out at 10 hours, which is more than a single day's work - so for that reason alone I think the question is a little flawed.

However, the company I used to work for was a 5 minute or so commute for me. So if I could have a short commute like that and work 4 days from the office, I'd totally go for it. More time for me! If it was even as much as 20 minute commute (4.5 days work equivelent) then I'd rather work from home.

Thank you! I’m not able to work so I can’t say with certainty which one I’d choose. I think WFH because it just seems more flexible to me - and I don’t like people, or getting up early, or commuting. And it’s better for the environment and cheaper for me. But having a 3 day weekend every weekend sounds great! I wonder if my life would have a clearer home/work balance and if that would make me happier 🤷🏼‍♀️ I was just interested in what people who do work think, I didn’t expect any hostility from such an inoffensive question!

I've got pretty severe ADHD so WFH is a mixed bag, it's great to have the flexibility but some days I dig myself a hole of not actually doing anything and putting myself under severe pressure to get stuff done in way less time than I would have, and so on. If anyone in the comments has any tips on overcoming this they would be gratefully received :D

4 days...WFH! 😅

Would you do that for a 20% pay cut?

I just did. I'm lucky that I can afford it. Although, because of tax, it affects my take home way less than 20%.

It's wild really. I'm lucky, and most of my career I've been in the maximum tax bracket in my country. Also cause I'm lucky, I kept getting raises and bonuses, because I work damn hard and I'm pretty good at what I do.

The thing is though, I'm no better off in terms of my life quality for all that money. I live in a small semi-detached in a nowhere town. I'm incredibly grateful to have been able to buy rather than rent, but I'd still like to strive for a little more space, a little more privacy or a little more excitement. But the way property is, even though I'm earning well, it seems impossible. I've tried unsuccessfully 3 times in the last 5 years to move , and come to the conclusion without earning a considerable amount more than I am it's impossible.

My basic needs were met long ago. I find ways to waste money here and there, but nothing to really work towards. I guess I could have kids, but this place is too small for a dog, let alone a couple of sprogs, and I wouldn't wish this world on another generation. The only good reason to be earning more for me is to maybe protect the quality of life I have should I lose my job or the situation gets worse in general (inflation, climate change etc), and again it doesn't seem like it's much protection. I believe in the important of tax, I'd pay even more if I thought it'd be used for good, but with this circus in charge, it'd hard to imagine much of my considerable tax bill going to help people rather than ending up in the pocket of some corpo with a government contract.

Add to that, jobs seem to get worse and worse. I swear everyone I know, across multiple sectors, is burning out. Corpos and governments alike are treating people like garbage, working them to death then discarding them as reward. Profits go up. Nothing of value gets made. Everyone but the bosses gets fucked.

As for my job, I worked hard and gave it a lot. I've seen the company mistreat and discarded good people for years, while outsourcing to halfwits and grifters (and I can't even be that angry at the grifters given what they're paid regionally). It's impossible to make a positive change, although I still try. But I hate it. The job grinds me down and takes everything.

I plan to work as little as possible, even if it means cutting back. I live in hope that it'll mean I recover a little, maybe find some joy again. Not much hope, but worth 20%.

(Sorry for that becoming antiwork tirade. It's been a shitty few years.)

I can't believe anyone would choose commute.

I have a 25 min commute by subway and I enjoy banter with my colleagues. Due to covid I also know that I devolve into a troglodyte on full WFH so :shrug:

They’re a definite minority but at least 3 people here chose the 4 day week.

  1. I work from home so that I don't have to go to the office.

  2. I don't have to go to the office.

  3. Let me work fewer days. 4x10 days would be nice. From home. So I don't have to go to the office.

  4. I don't want to go to the office just to be on Zoom all day anyway. It's a waste of time, a waste of carbon, and a waste of company money on the office space.

I’m sensing you don’t like going to the office…

Yes it's true. Why go to the office just to be on Zoom all day? I can do that at home and save myself some money. More importantly: I can do that from home and save myself the time it would take to drive to or from the office. Not to mention that I could be on Zoom all day from home and save myself the stress of driving around maniacs. Last, but not least, I could do it all from home and the company could save money by not paying for an office.

I will take Working From Home, knowing that I can get the equivalent of a day off per week anyway and I can use it mostly as I need it through the week.

I'm assuming that my employer doesn't monitor my machine to make sure my mouse pointer is moving. If that were the case, I'd have to fix that problem first.

I believe there are devices called "mouse jigglers" for that problem

I'm full WFH, and if I plugged one in it would be an instant firing. I don't have time any for anything but work in the day anyways, they have very high expectations.

4 days on-site. I like the mental separation by having a completely separate space for work, and I enjoy talking to my colleagues. I don't see many people outside of work, so I need the social interaction. And the lunches at work are usually much healthier than something I'd cook up myself, so that's also a plus.

I have tried to work from home a few days, but don't really like it at all.

I remember at the start of the first lockdown there were a bunch of young people in flat shares that really really struggled because the only private place they had to work was their bedrooms. I can definitely understand why people might like to work in the office for that reason and reasons like your own.

Gross. You needy people sicken me.

I'm sorry for having an opinion different than yours. I am not even saying that WFH is bad or anything, just that I don't prefer it.

It's not your opinion that's bad, it's being so needy that you feel you need to be around people all the time. That makes you one of those people that feed on the energy of others, which is harmful to them. Gross.

By talking to others, I'm feeding on their energy? I never said that I forcefully disturb others so they have to talk to me or something. I just enjoy the casual day-to-day chats with my coworkers.

But if calling strangers gross on the internet makes you feel good, I hope you have a lovely day.

They are your co-workers, not your friends. Running in to you at the coffee machine does not mean they care to go through the meaningless idle chit chat that means nothing but is a waste of time. If you make actual friends at work, fine, they probably welcome you. Otherwise, you're just another person we are all forced to tolerate to get through another terrible day. Worse, your desire to come in helps legitimize the push to force people back to the office. So that's butt kissing, if you don't like seeing yourself as a social vampire. But the main point here is, we go to see our friends. At an office, we are forced together. In a forced setting like that, more often then not, your desire to talk can be taxing and a waste of time to everyone else. You want to talk? Do it with your friends, your family. Leave everyone else the hell alone.

That seems like a very depressing mindset to have. And don't generalize your view onto everyone else like that. You say this as if I'm forcing everyone else at work to talk to me, which I am not. I am not even the one to initiate most conversations.

If you set an example of wanting to be in the office, that will be expected of the rest of us... so yes, it kind of is forcing everyone else, if not to talk to you, at least to be in the office. That puts you on management's side of the war. No thank you.

I actually work in a company where anyone can work from home if they want. It's just that many of us chose not to for various reasons.

So I'm sorry for having a preference different than yours, but if your management uses me as a single example to keep people in the office against their will, I think that's s problem with the management, not with me.

Wow, you are so sure of yourself. Your needing others can’t possibly be the problem. Ok. Glad you don’t work for us.

After doing WFH for several years, I'll only take a job on site as a last resort or for like double my pay. Then I would cut my time until FIRE roughly in half. I don't hate doing work. I hate having a huge chunk of my time taken up by having to work 40 hours.

If work weeks were cut to 24 or even 32 hours, I might even reconsider the FIRE path.

What does FIRE stand for?

Basically earn a bunch of money, invest smart, and retire early.

A bunch of people want to act like it's some secret new method and treat it like a fad diet, but people have been doing it forever.

Thanks! Sounds like calories in - calories out in weight loss.

Yeah, it's overly simplified to the the point you're missing out on valuable details.

Like, if just "spend less, save more" was easy, everyone would do it

I think the original FIRE was much more radical- basically the plan is to save up only like 700k or so, move to a low cost of living area, spend less than 20k a year, and try to live off of stock increases and interest.

But honestly that life sounds kinda shitty, so people stopped talking about FIRE what all the other conditions and it just became more "save, invest, retire eventually"

basically the plan is to save up only like 700k

Oh, that's it?

I'll knock this out this afternoon and let you know how well it works

A lot depends on the exact conditions. If the WFH/remote work let's my live anywhere in the world, I'd take that in a heartbeat. If I still have to be in a specific country it depends on how bad the commute is. If it's 10 minute to a train station, hop on a train for 40 minutes and another 10 to the office, then I take the 4 day work week. But if the commute is driving or lots of transfering then I would go with WFH.

Not to feed into the bosses' paranoia, but I'd say WFH 5-days (on paper) and bunk off, which is a lot easier to do WFH anyway.

I don't actually think the employer misses out here, even if most companies already take far more than they're owed from their employees to begin with.

The reality for a lot of jobs, especially those that require deep work, creativity etc, is that watching how long people are sat at their desks is not a good way to improve results anyway. Better a motivated happy workforce, and managers that are thinking in terms of how well a team is delivering useful things for the org rather than obsessing about timesheets.

If the company is happy to pay me X salary for the results I provide them, everybody wins. It's foolish for organisations to think that getting people to work longer hours, whether it's forcing people to work 4, 5, or 6 days, is going to get them more bang for buck.

As for remote working, I've worked exclusively from home for over a decade in fully remote teams. Everyone wins with WFH. There can be problems to mitigate and there's always some subjective preference to consider, but on the whole the average employee and employer wins big from the arrangement.

All the pushback I've seen on WFH since the pandemic seems in large part management using it as an excuse for their own incompetence.

"How can I tell my employees are working if I can't see them at their desks?" If you cant tell if they're working now, then you didn't know they were working before either!

On-boarding new people, building up young people, is just different from before. Make sure they have decent equilment for video and normalise teams sitting in video rooms when the work. Encourage buddy working at all levels. Recognise and respect the upfront cost of training. Encourage and fund opportunities for socialising both remotely and in person.

Managers don't know what's happening without the "water cooler effect". They're used to be able to shout at teams across an office, or easedrop. Again, this demonstrates a weakness in their ability to communicate and interact with the people they claim to "lead". Good managers will be in the same video rooms and chatting shit with the people they lead while they work as a united teams. Shitty managers will sit on their hands while not even noticing their team does everything they can to avoid a unhelpful or unsupportive "leader".

The worse one is productivity. I have no doubt things are going worse for corpos since the pandemic. This likely correlates with increase WFH. The ideas that this is proof that WFH is outrageously. During the pandemic we had teams working 17 hour days. Corpos took the opportunity to cut every corner and show contempt to the workforces, and they didn't fix things when the COVID numbers went down. The big shots made some truly terrible strategic calls. All these things and more are seeming to lead to a kind of mass enshittification across a ton of organisations. But bosses don't want to own their mistakes, let alone fix them , so WFH ends up the scapegoat.

(Sorry! This thread seems to have brought out the rant in me!)

i would choose WFH. i am currently in a team lead role, and i think it would be more beneficial for myself and the team to have 5 day coverage. it could also encourage others to feel more comfortable to choose the WFH option, so they can sync their hours with mine. team members working in the office will always have somebody there for help if they need it, so no worries there. plus i like taking lunchtime naps with my cat.

It depends on a lot of factors, like how my productivity is measured, how long is the commute, etc. but in general I'd pick the 4 days in the office.

I have done it both ways actually and I would take the 5 days WFH because I could still do the same amount of work in both scenarios and get paid the same. And on my "extra" 5th day of WFH I can just pretend to work and do whatever anyway.

Even if I had to actually work more, I'd still do WFH instead of commuting to the office because the commute and office + city experience just suck that much more.

My comment goes against the trend, but I'd choose to go into work since I find it much easier to focus, to the point where I could likely get the same amount of work done in 4 days at the office vs 5 days at home.

Currently my employer makes us come into the office three days per week, unless we choose to switch to full-time remote.

I work 3 days a week WFH...so neither?

I don't mind the one hour commute, I did it for 3 years going to college and my first job and I think 3 day weekends are the perfect amount of time between work weeks. Then again, I love the freedom of WFH. I can't choose.

Yeah 4 day WFH sounds great, IDK what the difference in onsite makes lol you just go onsite to zoom meeting anyways