I still stand by that defederation as the only line of defense is a losing strategy. Keeping users siloed in Facebook's garden shouldn't be seen as a win for us.
Keeping users siloed in Facebook’s garden shouldn’t be seen as a win for us.
Sometimes the only winning move is not to play. If people hadn't federated with google's XMPP back in the day, google wouldn't have had the same level of control it had to kill XMPP as a competitor.
We need to learn from the lessons of the past, and the past has resulted in the deaths of services when federating with corporations.
"We should debate them... And defeat them on the Marketplace of Ideas."
Yeah, right.
I never said defeating them or out competing them should be the goal. The goal should be the survival of services. And corporations will kill these services.
I don't disagree with needing to not repeat past mistakes.
Hate to burst your bubble, but no-one was actually using XMPP with Google Talk except for open-source tech nerds.
And google stopped any chances of that ever happening. The Fediverse should just let itself grow gradually and naturally, as should have XMPP
How so? I don't see the EEE in Google discontinuing XMPP support tbh.
They piggy backed on rapidly growing XMPP and then became lazy with keeping compatible with the rest of the xmpp federation and at some point the s2s connection stopped being feasible as they never implemented TLS for it, and did't really care as most xmpp users were on their server anyways and thus did't use the s2s connection.
Its not a typical nefarious EEE story, but it did a lot of damage to the xmpp federation anyways.
This predates Google Talk and is rather about the XMPP Gmail integration. Back then XMPP was the hot topic in tech circles (Twitter was even prototyped to be XMPP based) and people were switching to it and recommending it to others to replace ICQ/MSN/AIM etc. However, often they recommended others to use the Google XMPP service as back then Google was still naively seen as the "Do no evil" good guy, having just started up recently and giving away free things like previously unheared off 1GB of email storage etc.
So the situation is not quite comparable to AP and Facebook (and XMPP is far from dead), but it is still possible to draw some lessons from it.
So what?
Means there's no incentive for Google to support it.
Then why did they once support XMPP?
Probably to experiment with it, or maybe it was a good idea back then. Definitely not to extinguish it lol
So it's just a coincidence that they ended up killing their competitors? Yeah right.
XMPP was never killed the way Netscape was by Microsoft lmao
What is your definition of win? Market share? Are you thinking in capitalist terms?
Nobody is forcing those people to use Facebook, and they are welcome to come here whenever they like.
The most free people. Best for society. Etc.
|They're welcome to come here whenever they like .
Only if they know it exists and can still connect with the people and communities they care about. This is what the federated approach was supposed to fix, the silos, the community capture.
We know what Meta is, and we know our history, so we know Meta’s goal is to destroy the fediverse. Federating with Meta is not likely to yield your desired outcomes.
Ahaha, fuck no. If someone did go, please spill that tea.
Can you explain what that means in this context? How does defederating Threads prevent Meta from extinguishing anything?
Embrace: Join the fediverse with your existing user base that dwarfs the fediverse’s existing user base, and with infinitely more money.
Extend: Use your size, in terms of users and capital, to steer the direction of the ActivityPub fediverse standard to your advantage and your competitors’ disadvantage. You see everyone else as a competitor because you are a corporation seeking to monopolize the user base for profit.
Google is adding code to Chrome that will send tamper-proof information about your operating system and other software, and share it with websites. Google says this will reduce ad fraud. In practice, it reduces your control over your own computer, and is likely to mean that some websites will block access for everyone who's not using an "approved" operating system and browser. It also raises the barrier to entry for new browsers, something Google employees acknowledged in an unofficial explainer for the new feature, Web Environment Integrity (WEI).
I genuinely want Gopher back.
I want to share information and to communicate. I don't want every bowel movement tracked and monetizes. I don't want 30 cross site requests when going to a news site. A single story should not require 10MB of JavaScript libraries.
I have no doubt that most of the authors of the original internet are aghast at what their high-minded creation has itself created.
The XMPP article was good, thanks!
But how would defederating prevent any of that?
It would make Threads unable to see content from instances defederating it and vice versa, preventing the Embrace step.
That's a common misconception actually, any and all data available via federation is already public and easily scrapable even without running an instance of one's own. Defederating only hides (in this case) Threads content from users on the instance doing the defederating, but the data is still public. Not to mention copies of it would still be fully available on any extant federated instances.
But they would still be unable to embrace (and, by extension, extend and extinguish) because users from Threads would be unable to interact with users from other instances. Basically, they'd be unable to get rid of a potential competitor using the EEE method.
But how could interoperability lead to extinguishing? That's the part I don't understand. By what means could Threads "extinguish" the network of instances that stay federated?
It seems the idea is that it gets so big that it either can't exist without it or leeches the userbase. I've not really seen any explanation either, but I've come up with an idea around it. For example, in my experience Lemmy.World is filled with the type of people who would use Threads (from responses I've gotten about corporations like Spotify and Apple - heavily praised and no negativity about them). As threads and .world users interact, over time there becomes a dependency between those instances due to the community connections that are made. At a certain point, one or the other does something to encourage usage - that would be Extending.
For how long would something like activitypub be able to hold out? If Meta begins making contributions to it? Or if after that dependency, Meta makes a chance to how their federation works internally and fractures the point of activitypub by making instance runners/users pick one or the other. Or worse, Meta flat out buys Automatic. There goes the Fediverse.
FWIW - I'm not informed or have any idea what I'm talking about in this regard. I'm fully guessing and postulating, I don't even think I'm parroting what I've read somebody else say about it because, like I said, I've yet to see an explanation how the extinguish would function in this example. Historically I have an idea, but the circumstances here are different, ish.
But, this is Meta we're talking about. I don't think we'd be any happier federating with Reddit if the opportunity arose because these companies have historically shown they will pull teeth to get what they want, no matter how many people's teeth they have to pull.
"Well can they?"
I don't know. Maybe not? Do you want to let them try? Why let them? By defederating, it's like having a glass wall where yes, they can see everything looking in, but the interaction is mitigated. Ifnthe example I brought up is accurate, any changes .World decided to make with Meta in mind would not affect the rest of the instances that have defederated, since we don't even see that stuff from them in the first place.
Comparatively, slrpnk.net currently is federated with .World but not Threads, so if .World makes changes, those may be seen from instances that are federated with it?
From my understanding, a specific post on .World that has interaction from Threads and slrpnk.net. Threads and .World would see everything while Slrpnk.Net would only see federated instances and .World comments.
We are about 1.5m here in the Fediverse. Threads is already 100m. That's quite a large number of things to be missing, so it's possible that there's a large number of conversations that defederated users are only seeing half of? That could be another example that pushes Extinguish.
Anyway, sorry for any confusion or nonsense - I wrote this in a hurry on my phone, but I also wanted to lay out my thoughts and understand to see if it's at all in the ballpark. Shit, just use me as Cunningham's Law.
You've basically got it. To use the "Google XMPP" example some others have:
XMPP users existed, and its userbase was growing (similar to Lemmy). Google made Google Talk, a desktop chat application they used to have, compatible with XMPP (which was the "ActivityPub" of chat applications) (embrace).
After a bit, Google started adding their own proprietary stuff to XMPP. (It's similar to how Apple/ Google added proprietary stuff in their respective text message applications, like reacting to a text with an emote.) The XMPP devs, for whatever reason, couldn't or didn't make Google's own proprietary Google Talk features compatible with XMPP, so XMPP users might've started feeling left out (extend).
After a while, Google Talk got rid of its XMPP support, and, as a result, many XMPP users could no longer communicate with many of the friends they had made on the platform. (Since Google Talk users outnumbered XMPP users, there was a very high chance that people you communicated with on there were using Google Talk.) Google Talk users, on the other hand, simply noticed maybe one or two people on their list had gone offline permanently (extinguish).
Yeah this is the one, and it seems easy to see exactly that process taking place. I don't think it's so much the data concerns, alone at least, nor even the potential for content. I think many would agree that, to some extent having a larger user base available could be a good thing. It just so happens that 1) the user base is "more accessible" at best and potentially dangerous at its worst (not all of threads is friendly) and 2) it's Meta. There couldn't possibly be a reason for them to pursue this other than not having their grasp on it. I see no reason to trust it.
Someone you like on Threads and nowhere else. Use it there then. You can view them if it's federated? Will that still be the case in 1, 2, 3 years? At which point you've integrated so much of your instance into Threads that when support for ActivityPub is dropped or whatever change gets made, well, you may as well stick with Threads...
There's just no good outcome. I am an optimist, for the right perspective and reason devil's advocate is always worth a glance... and this? This has no good causes behind it. Man, what is it with all the big corps and apps trying to tie everything into one single spot like WeChat. Can't people just scroll Mastodon then X then Threads then Lemmy then Kbin then Facebook all separately like a normal mass consumer?
I actually don't have a problem tying everything together. I think the fact that Mastodon and Lemmy can communicate with each other (even though it's not really intentionally designed that way) is pretty neat.
What I do have a problem with is the corporations that are trying to do it. I don't trust any corporation to do it responsibly, especially not Facebook.
I would love to federate with Reddit. I hate having a Reddit account. I hate their website layout and apps. I hate their ads. If I could access some of the niche reddit communities that aren't on Lemmy without using Reddit that seems to have absolutely no downside.
It prevents that specific strategy that would culminate in extinguishing. The idea being to siphon users away from other platforms, then add features that other platforms won't or can't implement, and use that to create an image of their own platform being better, having more features.
If they succeed at having a lot of users oblivious to what's happening, they will use those features, and when they don't work for people on other platforms, they will blame the other platforms instead of their own, further cultivating the image that other platforms are broken/unreliable.
In the end, they leave other platforms unable to compete, forcing users to either have a "broken"/incomplete experience, or migrate to their platforms. (Or leave the fediverse entirely). Or they can simply stop federating at that point, after users have left for their platform, cutting off the rest of the fediverse from content hosted on their platform.
The way defederating prevents a strategy like that is by cutting them off before they can get a foothold - they can't make users feel left out if they don't get to influence their experience in the first place.
Also, if the best people are on the instances threads can't see, their userers will feel left out.
Huh. You'd think more instances were blocking, given the amount of buzz.
Being generallky in favor of letting individual users make this call that's... mildly encouraging. Of course I happen to be in an instance that is blocking, so...
It's worth noting that this still splits Mastodon pretty much in half. That's arguably a bigger concern than anything else Meta may be doing. They may not even have to actually federate to break Mastodon, which is a very interesting dynamic.
Am I the one who finds X federated in the status of this website as that instance is not federated ?
It also confuses me that it says like that instance is federated.
Yes. I get the idea, because federating with them is the "negative" option, but honestly it's just confusing and overly opinionated for an infographic.
X = Federated = Bad
It's not rocket science.
Yeah X is the other hellsite.
Is Lemmy.world not going to defederate from Threads? Did I miss something?
That's Mastodon.world or is that the same as lemmy.world?
Same admin.
I was right to avoid making my account there then lol
though ig you can just migrate accounts now with 0.19
Instead you went with the tankies and think that's somehow better? lol
Much better. It's modded directly by Lemmy devs and they don't defederate well-modded instances.
Btw, "tankie" isn't much of an insult if you meant it like that, the same way "woke" isn't much of one to the people conservatives use it against. Fighting against economic inequality and discrimination are good things.
The Lemmy devs, who are also tankies, yeah.
Tankie is as much of an "insult" as Nazi is. Spreading disinformation & insults and glorifying Stalin and Mao while defending modern ruscism is just as vile and should be cancelled just the same. And it's funny you say well-"modded" instances. I assume you mean moderated, which isn't even done properly on Lemmy.ml itself, as they completely ignore reports of insults & disinformation from tankies.
Whatever. Thanks for showing your true colors. At least I can tag you appropriately now.
"Anything that challenges my worldview is disinformation" lmao
Lemmy.ml does a great job keeping homophobes and nazis out, better than .world at least.
Lemmy.ml user using a hexbear hosted picture in a classic self-own. 🤡
If you're such a fan of starvation then please, do us all the favor.
They got some cool emojis. You don't seem to know what "self-own" means huh
If you're such a fan of starvation
Where'd you get the idea that I'm a fan of capitalism?
Literally counters with a "NO U!!11" reply ... 🤡
I've asked the exact same question.
It's somehow fun to see instance rules adding a clause about We do not federate with organization involved in Genocides
And a pitty that Meta is that Bad !
We gotta pump these numbers up
What is fedipact?
It's a silly hashtag för instances that are in a "pact" to block Threads
why is silly
Because the people signed the pact did it long time ago, before any details about Threads federation was known. It was a typical fedi kneejerk reaction.
You'd have to be a dumbass to federate with these megacorps lol. We're here precisely because of the decisions of one such company.
I guess majority on fedi are dumbasses in that case ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Mastodon is pretty fucked up anyway because everyone is on mastodon.social.
The key detail about Threads is that it's owned by Meta. That's the reason to block Threads. It was known back then, so there's nothing silly about it.
Good. On one hand it's good to see fediverse stuff coming mainstream, on the other hand the last thing we want is a load of celebrities and brands trying to cannibalise said fediverse as an opportunity to corner the market instead of genuinely useful resources for communication
This is wrong. Rwn.lol blocked threads.net months ago.
If the Fediverse is truly the architecture of the future, then shouldn't it be able to stand any attempt by Meta to control it? If Meta is able to control it, then isn't it the wrong solution?
IMO the way to prevent such a scenario from happening is not by blocking Meta, but by inviting equally large competitors to join the fediverse. The described tactic can only work if you have close to a monopoly.
Well they aren't blocked at the fediverse level. They are blocked at the instance level which is the fediverse working as designed.
You're completely right.
Defederation is silly here in my opinion. I'd personally prefer more content and more mainstream stuff. We're basically isolating ourselves. If it's so great, it'll flourish; instead we won't allow it. So much for an open community. :shrug:
We also collectively downvote people who think this which is also silly. Heck even this post is more/less to bully these instances into doing what this group wants.
Reminds me of the bad side of Reddit.
This feels like a basic misunderstanding of how the fediverse works. There are instances that embody your preferences and you can sign up for them.
One of the most important reasons I believe it is so useful to have a federverse that allows defederating is because ever since 2014 and 2015, and growing since then, there's been a phenomenon of rabid online trolling and hyperpoliticization that's had tendency to take over and destroy whatever pre-existing culture and norms existed, and the people doing it have leveraged bad faith free speech arguments to attempt to expose more platforms to their behavior, often making the same copy paste echo chamber argument that you are right now. I found the people making this argument to be operating from really shallow understandings of what intellectual diversity really means, because these people tend to ignore important components such as the paradox of tolerance, they tend not to believe that trolling or harassment campaigns are real, they tend not to be able to distinguish between "echo chamber" and the high level of discussion that's possible when you found a community based on a common interest or shared set on principles, tend not to understand that you're actually reducing the diversity of ideas by destroying each communities and turning all communities into the same thing, and tend to think of the full range of human ideas is represented in the unfortunately narrow framing of left-right spectrum which is most pertinent in American politics.
And for the fediverse, it calls the bluff perfectly, because for people who are concerned about echo chambers or "exposure to ideas" (yeah, which ones??), such people are able to join an instance that gives them the thing they say they want. But what they really tend to want is unmoderated unfiltered exposure to a captive audience, and the tangled contradictory mishmash of arguments about free speech and being open to ideas are just a means to that end. And so, they tend to be completely empty-handed when you ask them to explain why they feel specific instances need to federate or de-federate, you just get vague nothingburger speeches.
To be clear I don't think that everyone making the argument thinks that way, I think some people are unwittingly doing the work of bad actors without meaning to. It's just that I've seen this argument made over and over, and I feel like there's some sort of boot camp we should all put ourselves through that involves understanding the history and some core ideas, because it could save everyone a lot of time.
Uh...why are the colors backwards?
My assumption would be the implication that blocking is the good condition and federation is the bad condition.
But isn't this just a database screenshot?
It's a database screenshot. The database was created by a group against federating with meta.
I like how they added the comment from mastodon.art admin 😅
Y'all really are afraid of any competition. It's absurd how quickly you all move to censoring content for others.
I think the issue is that most Fediverse instances share the same values of a socialized and decentralized internet/social media, and despite Threads federating, we know that Meta is a for-profit massive corporation that exists to create a centralized data scraping network.
Some instances know their embrace, extend, extinguish history and some don’t.
And for those that don't:
https://ploum.net/2023-06-23-how-to-kill-decentralised-networks.html
I still stand by that defederation as the only line of defense is a losing strategy. Keeping users siloed in Facebook's garden shouldn't be seen as a win for us.
Sometimes the only winning move is not to play. If people hadn't federated with google's XMPP back in the day, google wouldn't have had the same level of control it had to kill XMPP as a competitor.
We need to learn from the lessons of the past, and the past has resulted in the deaths of services when federating with corporations.
"We should debate them... And defeat them on the Marketplace of Ideas." Yeah, right.
I never said defeating them or out competing them should be the goal. The goal should be the survival of services. And corporations will kill these services.
I don't disagree with needing to not repeat past mistakes.
Hate to burst your bubble, but no-one was actually using XMPP with Google Talk except for open-source tech nerds.
And google stopped any chances of that ever happening. The Fediverse should just let itself grow gradually and naturally, as should have XMPP
How so? I don't see the EEE in Google discontinuing XMPP support tbh.
They piggy backed on rapidly growing XMPP and then became lazy with keeping compatible with the rest of the xmpp federation and at some point the s2s connection stopped being feasible as they never implemented TLS for it, and did't really care as most xmpp users were on their server anyways and thus did't use the s2s connection.
Its not a typical nefarious EEE story, but it did a lot of damage to the xmpp federation anyways.
This predates Google Talk and is rather about the XMPP Gmail integration. Back then XMPP was the hot topic in tech circles (Twitter was even prototyped to be XMPP based) and people were switching to it and recommending it to others to replace ICQ/MSN/AIM etc. However, often they recommended others to use the Google XMPP service as back then Google was still naively seen as the "Do no evil" good guy, having just started up recently and giving away free things like previously unheared off 1GB of email storage etc.
So the situation is not quite comparable to AP and Facebook (and XMPP is far from dead), but it is still possible to draw some lessons from it.
So what?
Means there's no incentive for Google to support it.
Then why did they once support XMPP?
Probably to experiment with it, or maybe it was a good idea back then. Definitely not to extinguish it lol
So it's just a coincidence that they ended up killing their competitors? Yeah right.
XMPP was never killed the way Netscape was by Microsoft lmao
What is your definition of win? Market share? Are you thinking in capitalist terms?
Nobody is forcing those people to use Facebook, and they are welcome to come here whenever they like.
The most free people. Best for society. Etc.
|They're welcome to come here whenever they like .
Only if they know it exists and can still connect with the people and communities they care about. This is what the federated approach was supposed to fix, the silos, the community capture.
We know what Meta is, and we know our history, so we know Meta’s goal is to destroy the fediverse. Federating with Meta is not likely to yield your desired outcomes.
The important part, from @kev@fostodon.org:
Ahaha, fuck no. If someone did go, please spill that tea.
Can you explain what that means in this context? How does defederating Threads prevent Meta from extinguishing anything?
Or what Google does right now with Chrome and web standards.
For those unaware of Google’s latest web browser malarkey: Web Environment Integrity
EFF/Cory Doctorow/Jacob Hoffman-Andrews: Your Computer Should Say What You Tell It To Say
I genuinely want Gopher back.
I want to share information and to communicate. I don't want every bowel movement tracked and monetizes. I don't want 30 cross site requests when going to a news site. A single story should not require 10MB of JavaScript libraries.
I have no doubt that most of the authors of the original internet are aghast at what their high-minded creation has itself created.
The XMPP article was good, thanks!
But how would defederating prevent any of that?
It would make Threads unable to see content from instances defederating it and vice versa, preventing the Embrace step.
That's a common misconception actually, any and all data available via federation is already public and easily scrapable even without running an instance of one's own. Defederating only hides (in this case) Threads content from users on the instance doing the defederating, but the data is still public. Not to mention copies of it would still be fully available on any extant federated instances.
But they would still be unable to embrace (and, by extension, extend and extinguish) because users from Threads would be unable to interact with users from other instances. Basically, they'd be unable to get rid of a potential competitor using the EEE method.
But how could interoperability lead to extinguishing? That's the part I don't understand. By what means could Threads "extinguish" the network of instances that stay federated?
It seems the idea is that it gets so big that it either can't exist without it or leeches the userbase. I've not really seen any explanation either, but I've come up with an idea around it. For example, in my experience Lemmy.World is filled with the type of people who would use Threads (from responses I've gotten about corporations like Spotify and Apple - heavily praised and no negativity about them). As threads and .world users interact, over time there becomes a dependency between those instances due to the community connections that are made. At a certain point, one or the other does something to encourage usage - that would be Extending.
For how long would something like activitypub be able to hold out? If Meta begins making contributions to it? Or if after that dependency, Meta makes a chance to how their federation works internally and fractures the point of activitypub by making instance runners/users pick one or the other. Or worse, Meta flat out buys Automatic. There goes the Fediverse.
FWIW - I'm not informed or have any idea what I'm talking about in this regard. I'm fully guessing and postulating, I don't even think I'm parroting what I've read somebody else say about it because, like I said, I've yet to see an explanation how the extinguish would function in this example. Historically I have an idea, but the circumstances here are different, ish.
But, this is Meta we're talking about. I don't think we'd be any happier federating with Reddit if the opportunity arose because these companies have historically shown they will pull teeth to get what they want, no matter how many people's teeth they have to pull.
"Well can they?"
I don't know. Maybe not? Do you want to let them try? Why let them? By defederating, it's like having a glass wall where yes, they can see everything looking in, but the interaction is mitigated. Ifnthe example I brought up is accurate, any changes .World decided to make with Meta in mind would not affect the rest of the instances that have defederated, since we don't even see that stuff from them in the first place.
Comparatively, slrpnk.net currently is federated with .World but not Threads, so if .World makes changes, those may be seen from instances that are federated with it?
From my understanding, a specific post on .World that has interaction from Threads and slrpnk.net. Threads and .World would see everything while Slrpnk.Net would only see federated instances and .World comments.
We are about 1.5m here in the Fediverse. Threads is already 100m. That's quite a large number of things to be missing, so it's possible that there's a large number of conversations that defederated users are only seeing half of? That could be another example that pushes Extinguish.
Anyway, sorry for any confusion or nonsense - I wrote this in a hurry on my phone, but I also wanted to lay out my thoughts and understand to see if it's at all in the ballpark. Shit, just use me as Cunningham's Law.
You've basically got it. To use the "Google XMPP" example some others have:
XMPP users existed, and its userbase was growing (similar to Lemmy). Google made Google Talk, a desktop chat application they used to have, compatible with XMPP (which was the "ActivityPub" of chat applications) (embrace).
After a bit, Google started adding their own proprietary stuff to XMPP. (It's similar to how Apple/ Google added proprietary stuff in their respective text message applications, like reacting to a text with an emote.) The XMPP devs, for whatever reason, couldn't or didn't make Google's own proprietary Google Talk features compatible with XMPP, so XMPP users might've started feeling left out (extend).
After a while, Google Talk got rid of its XMPP support, and, as a result, many XMPP users could no longer communicate with many of the friends they had made on the platform. (Since Google Talk users outnumbered XMPP users, there was a very high chance that people you communicated with on there were using Google Talk.) Google Talk users, on the other hand, simply noticed maybe one or two people on their list had gone offline permanently (extinguish).
Yeah this is the one, and it seems easy to see exactly that process taking place. I don't think it's so much the data concerns, alone at least, nor even the potential for content. I think many would agree that, to some extent having a larger user base available could be a good thing. It just so happens that 1) the user base is "more accessible" at best and potentially dangerous at its worst (not all of threads is friendly) and 2) it's Meta. There couldn't possibly be a reason for them to pursue this other than not having their grasp on it. I see no reason to trust it.
Someone you like on Threads and nowhere else. Use it there then. You can view them if it's federated? Will that still be the case in 1, 2, 3 years? At which point you've integrated so much of your instance into Threads that when support for ActivityPub is dropped or whatever change gets made, well, you may as well stick with Threads...
There's just no good outcome. I am an optimist, for the right perspective and reason devil's advocate is always worth a glance... and this? This has no good causes behind it. Man, what is it with all the big corps and apps trying to tie everything into one single spot like WeChat. Can't people just scroll Mastodon then X then Threads then Lemmy then Kbin then Facebook all separately like a normal mass consumer?
I actually don't have a problem tying everything together. I think the fact that Mastodon and Lemmy can communicate with each other (even though it's not really intentionally designed that way) is pretty neat.
What I do have a problem with is the corporations that are trying to do it. I don't trust any corporation to do it responsibly, especially not Facebook.
I would love to federate with Reddit. I hate having a Reddit account. I hate their website layout and apps. I hate their ads. If I could access some of the niche reddit communities that aren't on Lemmy without using Reddit that seems to have absolutely no downside.
The same way we prevented any of that up ’till now: by doing our own thing on our own terms.
It prevents that specific strategy that would culminate in extinguishing. The idea being to siphon users away from other platforms, then add features that other platforms won't or can't implement, and use that to create an image of their own platform being better, having more features. If they succeed at having a lot of users oblivious to what's happening, they will use those features, and when they don't work for people on other platforms, they will blame the other platforms instead of their own, further cultivating the image that other platforms are broken/unreliable. In the end, they leave other platforms unable to compete, forcing users to either have a "broken"/incomplete experience, or migrate to their platforms. (Or leave the fediverse entirely). Or they can simply stop federating at that point, after users have left for their platform, cutting off the rest of the fediverse from content hosted on their platform.
The way defederating prevents a strategy like that is by cutting them off before they can get a foothold - they can't make users feel left out if they don't get to influence their experience in the first place.
Also, if the best people are on the instances threads can't see, their userers will feel left out.
The color codes and symbols aren't at all propagandist.
I mean technically, but it's not like it's trying to be subtle about it. From the page:
The point is to discourage instances from federating with threads.
Lol what democracy
It's not over yet, friend. There are still things worth fighting for, and still so, so much more we could lose. Don't give up hope.
What
A flawed democracy is still better than no democracy
I thought the same, then I saw the quote at the top of the page and realized it wasn’t strictly for information tracking
Huzzah for data visualization. This effect is happening all around you, in all sorts of content.
Nice, props to whoever made that site.
https://veganism.social/@nm should have added in the desc.
Huh. You'd think more instances were blocking, given the amount of buzz.
Being generallky in favor of letting individual users make this call that's... mildly encouraging. Of course I happen to be in an instance that is blocking, so...
It's worth noting that this still splits Mastodon pretty much in half. That's arguably a bigger concern than anything else Meta may be doing. They may not even have to actually federate to break Mastodon, which is a very interesting dynamic.
There seems to a mistake saying that Threads is not blocked by lemmy.zip, when we defederated them months ago.
This is not an exhaustive list. For example, Instagram Threads profiles are available from kbin.social, which is not listed here, though.
Thanks for this
Am I the one who finds X federated in the status of this website as that instance is not federated ?
It also confuses me that it says like that instance is federated.
Yes. I get the idea, because federating with them is the "negative" option, but honestly it's just confusing and overly opinionated for an infographic.
X = Federated = Bad
It's not rocket science.
Yeah X is the other hellsite.
Is Lemmy.world not going to defederate from Threads? Did I miss something?
No
Thanks so much for the link!
Time to migrate my account then ¯_(ツ)_/¯
That's Mastodon.world or is that the same as lemmy.world?
Same admin.
I was right to avoid making my account there then lol
though ig you can just migrate accounts now with 0.19
Instead you went with the tankies and think that's somehow better? lol
Much better. It's modded directly by Lemmy devs and they don't defederate well-modded instances.
Btw, "tankie" isn't much of an insult if you meant it like that, the same way "woke" isn't much of one to the people conservatives use it against. Fighting against economic inequality and discrimination are good things.
The Lemmy devs, who are also tankies, yeah.
Tankie is as much of an "insult" as Nazi is. Spreading disinformation & insults and glorifying Stalin and Mao while defending modern ruscism is just as vile and should be cancelled just the same. And it's funny you say well-"modded" instances. I assume you mean moderated, which isn't even done properly on Lemmy.ml itself, as they completely ignore reports of insults & disinformation from tankies.
Whatever. Thanks for showing your true colors. At least I can tag you appropriately now.
"Anything that challenges my worldview is disinformation"
lmao
Lemmy.ml does a great job keeping homophobes and nazis out, better than .world at least.
Lemmy.ml user using a hexbear hosted picture in a classic self-own. 🤡
If you're such a fan of starvation then please, do us all the favor.
They got some cool emojis. You don't seem to know what "self-own" means huh
Where'd you get the idea that I'm a fan of capitalism?
Literally counters with a "NO U!!11" reply ... 🤡
I've asked the exact same question.
It's somehow fun to see instance rules adding a clause about We do not federate with organization involved in Genocides
And a pitty that Meta is that Bad !
We gotta pump these numbers up
What is fedipact?
It's a silly hashtag för instances that are in a "pact" to block Threads
why is silly
Because the people signed the pact did it long time ago, before any details about Threads federation was known. It was a typical fedi kneejerk reaction.
You'd have to be a dumbass to federate with these megacorps lol. We're here precisely because of the decisions of one such company.
I guess majority on fedi are dumbasses in that case ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Mastodon is pretty fucked up anyway because everyone is on mastodon.social.
The key detail about Threads is that it's owned by Meta. That's the reason to block Threads. It was known back then, so there's nothing silly about it.
is facebook
Not nearly enough.
This is why I love DBZER0
I hope LW limits federation
Have the admins said anything? Why are we federated with them?
Yep. They don't care and they're going to keep federation with Facebook so "users have the choice to opt out"
Mastodon's largest instance is letting them in too
The new Lemmy 19 allows users to block instances so that's not unreasonable for the largest instances. Gotta show new users that users have control.
Lol lemmy world admins are all chuds
Good. On one hand it's good to see fediverse stuff coming mainstream, on the other hand the last thing we want is a load of celebrities and brands trying to cannibalise said fediverse as an opportunity to corner the market instead of genuinely useful resources for communication
This is wrong. Rwn.lol blocked threads.net months ago.
Super useful
So, I choose the right instances at the beginning.
I'm on a Mastodon that's defederated and a Lemmy that's federated. Let the games begin!
How do I block threads.net ? I searched for but couldn't find it to block it
You need to wait for your instance to be updated to 0.19 for individual instance blocks to be available.
What about limited, what is it?
If the Fediverse is truly the architecture of the future, then shouldn't it be able to stand any attempt by Meta to control it? If Meta is able to control it, then isn't it the wrong solution?
How to Kill a Decentralised Network (such as the Fediverse)
IMO the way to prevent such a scenario from happening is not by blocking Meta, but by inviting equally large competitors to join the fediverse. The described tactic can only work if you have close to a monopoly.
Well they aren't blocked at the fediverse level. They are blocked at the instance level which is the fediverse working as designed.
You're completely right.
Defederation is silly here in my opinion. I'd personally prefer more content and more mainstream stuff. We're basically isolating ourselves. If it's so great, it'll flourish; instead we won't allow it. So much for an open community. :shrug:
We also collectively downvote people who think this which is also silly. Heck even this post is more/less to bully these instances into doing what this group wants.
Reminds me of the bad side of Reddit.
This feels like a basic misunderstanding of how the fediverse works. There are instances that embody your preferences and you can sign up for them.
One of the most important reasons I believe it is so useful to have a federverse that allows defederating is because ever since 2014 and 2015, and growing since then, there's been a phenomenon of rabid online trolling and hyperpoliticization that's had tendency to take over and destroy whatever pre-existing culture and norms existed, and the people doing it have leveraged bad faith free speech arguments to attempt to expose more platforms to their behavior, often making the same copy paste echo chamber argument that you are right now. I found the people making this argument to be operating from really shallow understandings of what intellectual diversity really means, because these people tend to ignore important components such as the paradox of tolerance, they tend not to believe that trolling or harassment campaigns are real, they tend not to be able to distinguish between "echo chamber" and the high level of discussion that's possible when you found a community based on a common interest or shared set on principles, tend not to understand that you're actually reducing the diversity of ideas by destroying each communities and turning all communities into the same thing, and tend to think of the full range of human ideas is represented in the unfortunately narrow framing of left-right spectrum which is most pertinent in American politics.
And for the fediverse, it calls the bluff perfectly, because for people who are concerned about echo chambers or "exposure to ideas" (yeah, which ones??), such people are able to join an instance that gives them the thing they say they want. But what they really tend to want is unmoderated unfiltered exposure to a captive audience, and the tangled contradictory mishmash of arguments about free speech and being open to ideas are just a means to that end. And so, they tend to be completely empty-handed when you ask them to explain why they feel specific instances need to federate or de-federate, you just get vague nothingburger speeches.
To be clear I don't think that everyone making the argument thinks that way, I think some people are unwittingly doing the work of bad actors without meaning to. It's just that I've seen this argument made over and over, and I feel like there's some sort of boot camp we should all put ourselves through that involves understanding the history and some core ideas, because it could save everyone a lot of time.
Uh...why are the colors backwards?
My assumption would be the implication that blocking is the good condition and federation is the bad condition.
But isn't this just a database screenshot?
It's a database screenshot. The database was created by a group against federating with meta.
I like how they added the comment from mastodon.art admin 😅
Y'all really are afraid of any competition. It's absurd how quickly you all move to censoring content for others.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,\_extend,\_and\_extinguish
I think the issue is that most Fediverse instances share the same values of a socialized and decentralized internet/social media, and despite Threads federating, we know that Meta is a for-profit massive corporation that exists to create a centralized data scraping network.