Good. Maybe they'll be the first corporation forced to eat crow for their corner cutting.
Don't count on it, the government will bail them out if they drop further
I wouldn't be so sure. Government bailouts tend to happen because they're almost forces to. Where the economy can suffer greater loss without the bailout. Generally, in a scenario where a company or corporation has nestled itself into something the economy is dependent on. Of course what happens after that bailout is the bad part where it often seems nothing is done to alleviate the economy's dependency, nor is the actions of the body receiving the bailout regulated, monitored, or needing to pay it back.
I don't know how much dire a state the US economy would be in with Boeing missing or significantly damaged, but can't imagine it's perceived to be as bad as the crooked banks.
Edit: Oh, wait. The military is dependent on them. Yeah, there'd be a bailout lol
Boeing has MASSIVE government contracts, and does a ton for both the military and NASA. They're absolutely bailout material, as much as it hurts me to say.
I'm waiting for a condition of the bailout to be separating Boeing Defense from Boeing Aerospace, so the aerospace side can fail
Well looking at their income per sector commercial is the largest. And they probably split r&d across these sectors. So losing civil aviation probably would mean they can be less competitive as defense contractors.
BA is one of 30 companies in the Dow Jones Industrial Average used to measure the performance of the domestic market. It practically represents an entire sector but itself. The Fed will absolutely help BA
They'll just start selling their planes at a discount to win back buyers, then cut more corners to make a profit at the discounted rate.
What're they waiting for?
Stock prices to drop sufficiently.
I'd consider that to be "eating Crow", considering that's the one thing they're supposed to be concerned about.
They'll just use the opportunity to buy back stock.
Boeing should be nationalized. If a company is "to big to fail" they inevitably do because of bad leadership and greed. They need to be nationalized as part of the bail out package. But because our government is corrupt Boeing with get billions of tax dollars to save them.
You think it had anything to do with those planes breaking apart in the sky?
No, its millennials killing the aircraft industry.
Well, you might have a point. I'm a millenial and I didn't buy a single Boeing last month. Damn you, cancel culture!
I wish I could afford a Boeing, but I go to Starbucks 35,000 times a day.
Damn kids. No one wants to fly anymore.
You say that in jest but I am a former flight instructor that isn't particularly interested in going flying ever again, not since I dropped out of mechanic school anyway.
If you had cut out the avocado toast, you could have afforded your own wide-body jet liner before your 30s.
One Boeing 737 MAX = 6.5 million avocado toasts. You'd have to go without avocado toast for ... uh ... two weeks?
That's how we know you're not a millennial. A real millennial knows that's only one week's worth of 'cado toast.
Well, it's only 6.4 million Avocado toasts if you save some money on bolts...
Personally I only buy artisan aircraft.
It's so important to shop local. I buy my aircraft from companies down the road from me that share my ethical values.
we need to stop eating avocados and start buying more planes.
Grow up
Okay - sorry. Too many trolls have given me a bad reflex action
Pretty sure they're joking.
Thanks for that. Sometimes I wish /s was more popular here, for tone-deaf people like me.
It's not needed. Need to think about the sentence.
How could millennials really be affecting aircraft sales? Obviously they couldn't, therefore the comment makes no sense if considered literally. However often millennials are blamed for everything else, so perhaps it's an amusing comment related to that phenomenon.
I know engineers at my work that would say equally dumb things like that unironically and mean it lol
I also don't get people's aversion to /s, do they also only speak in monotone?
Yes boomer, they speak in monotone.
Lmfao I'd love to know why that comment makes me a boomer
It doesn’t. It was sarcastic based on your boomer-like dependence on /s.
But if you think about it, millennials could be pushing a dialogue in popular media that Boeing is part of the big industrial war machine, and deserves to die. I’ve heard lesser fabricated arguments on the Internet.
In any event, thanks for the heads up.
No, they just didn't kill enough whistleblowers...
When you run an engineering company as a business, you wind up with no business at all
"Made in USA" is well on it's way from being a symbol of quality to implying a lack of. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big proponent of domestic manufacturing. But there are an outsized number of executives who don't seem to get that when you make shitty products, you will alienate all your customers who will then no longer buy your shitty products. That kind of reputational damage is incredibly hard to recover from. Especially when you make airplanes that have a tendency to fall out of the sky which is sort of a deal breaker for people who want to buy an airplane. Hope it was worth jacking up their stock price for five minutes.
well on it’s way from being a symbol of quality
US Cars have been an international joke since the 70s. And Boeing's success is largely in contrast to McDonald Douglas, which crapped out back in the 90s and was forced into a merger to get bailed out. This isn't an issue of "American Quality" so much as it is an issue of "Traditional manufacturing methodology" being whittled away over time by profit-obsessed shareholders and C-levels.
Boeing was a little late to the party, but that's got nothing to do with American symbology. Everyone from Intel to Burger King have been on this trajectory for decades.
Hope it was worth jacking up their stock price for five minutes.
It was for the CEOs who already cashed out and abandoned the company, yes.
I understand the label is practically not enforced with very nominal fines if you’re found in violation.
“Made in the USA” can be sewing on the label in a factory that hires >50 people.
There’s nothing inherent to running a business that implies cannibalizing one’s own brand reputation for short term profits. That sort of behaviour reeks of an inexperienced and perverse management culture. You can find countless examples of businesses where the brand’s reputation for quality, reliability, and safety are considered sacred and any employee who publicly damages that reputation is ostracized. Japanese companies pretty commonly have these cultures, for example.
They replaced their management, who were mostly engineers with MBA’s, to business majors with MBA’s who worship Jack Welch. The IQ in the room plummeted as the ghost of Welch demanded sacrifices for short term gains so they might one day get their golden parachute.
There’s nothing inherent to running a business that implies cannibalizing one’s own brand reputation for short term profits
True but only for a snapshot in time. When the expectation of the environment is unlimited growth and profit above all else, the quick cash out in lieu of long term gains is inevitable sooner or later
You can find countless examples of businesses where the brand’s reputation for quality, reliability, and safety are considered sacred and any employee who publicly damages that reputation is ostracized. Japanese companies pretty commonly have these cultures, for example.
Oh outside of the USA yes, I can see that... In the USA, I think I would count such examples with 1 hand (talking about large companies and corporations, not Mom and Pop shops of course)
Generally a business runs for profit. They teach people in business school to maximize profits. So there kind of is something inherent to running a business that implies cannibalizing one's own brand reputation for short term profits. There is always that incentive to give the least amount for as much as you can take.
Japanese have immortalized a concept called "Black Company" and "Death March" where they push their employees into so much overtime that they literally die or risk losing their livelihood. Which is probably not great for long term or their reputation.
So there kind of is something inherent to running a business that implies cannibalizing one’s own brand reputation for short term profits.
It’s called “Wall Street”.
That's true that shareholders and stock evaluation are main drivers for this phenomenon, but Private Companies aren't necessarily more saintly than companies with Public Offerings.
True, but in my experience, selling stock publicly is the ticket to hell. No matter how much of your company you think you still own, you’re going to be driven to make higher profits every quarter, no matter the cost. If you don’t comply, they will replace you with someone who will.
Countless examples? I can't name ten.
This. It's exchanging long term success for short term wins. I doubt they are going to be the only victims of business over engineering. It's going to be a slow burn for a lot of companies. Most companies that go this route will slowly crumble as their products enshitify, but the thing is, in most cases, no one will get hurt.
This should have never happened in the aerospace industry.
Sounds like they've entered the, "find out," stage.
They're still working for US Government and have military contracts. They're fine.
The company itself maybe, the people responsible for the downfall not so much.
The C-levels probably got huge bonuses for saving tons of money, while having a super high paycheck anyways and when the boat finally goes down they will just hop into a C-level position at a different company where their main focus will be again to save tons of money.
C-level positions truly are the most insane thing in this capitalist hellhole that we live in. They come and go (usually in a 2-5 year cycle) and their next job is secured no matter their performance.
Makes you long for golden parachutes that don't open when their 737 Max loses an engine or two
The people that set us on this path moved on long ago.
Too bad they're a defense contractor and "too big to fail".
Every one of those lost orders will come out of the pockets of US taxpayers when Boeing is bailed out.
When the Boeing plane crashes and explodes >:(
When the Boeing rocket crashes and explodes >:D
When the Boeing plane crashed and explodes >:(
When the Boeing rocket crashes and explodes :(
I wonder if the investors are happy yet
The investors that matter, probably. I have little doubt it will be the "little guy" who has a 401k with Boeing investments that takes the hit. The C-suite executives will have golden parachutes, and anyone powerful/rich enough will either insider trade it away or get bailed out.
Good fuck this company. I'm sure all the military contracts will keep their pockets lined unfortunately.
more to the point: fuck the McDonnell Douglas Corporation. Oh, fuck them both, sure, but Boeing died a long time ago. It's just McDD wearing Boeing like a horrific skin suit.
I think they tried that before it was cool. Something about the handling of the newer aircraft that was responsible for a few accidents.
Just fire more of those stupid engineers and scientists and run some more AI on it. Us business majors know best!
"Training data"
Maybe let the engineers take it over again
They're likely the last group the C-suite listens to so it's probably a good idea. Shame it won't happen.
Nobody wants planes that fall out of the sky and lose sections mid-flight? Why not?
What a headline. It literally fell 3%... That's not much. Actually still higher than their April value. They dropped more than 50% in the beginning of the pandemic and have not recovered from that. Whereas Airbus easily pushed higher than pre pandemic level. So yeah not looking good since a long time.
Good. It sure would be nice to see a company held accountable for enshittifying so thoroughly.
It's a feature not a bug. Everyone wants easily removable fuselage components.
Capitalism working as it should for once, even on a megacorp.
a huge backlog of more than 5,600 orders
Apparently some people with money think there is going to be a big expansion in air travel.
The biggest limiting factor in airplanes is the production speed. Building airliners is slow which is why there are very long waiting lists. Nothing's wrong that's just planes. New planes are cheaper to operate so its a good idea to order new planes even if you're not planning a significant expansion.
This is also why airlines will be slow to react to boeing's safety record in orders. Switching orders means losing your place and going to the back of airbus's waiting list.
Kinda yes, kinda no. There have certainly been times, particularly after 9/11 and various crises, when demand dropped significantly.
There's also airliners that just haven't sold well. A340NG, A380, 747-8, 767-400, the MD-11, until recently the Cseries/A220. The A330neo has also not sold particularly well and you could probably get a slot within a year easily.
True, but this article is specifically about the 737. Apart from the a220, none of the aircraft you listed are both in production and part of the 737's market segment.
The a320 neo family has about 7000 orders awaiting delivery. It is not feasible to switch for most airlines for the reasons I previously mentioned.
Market correction at work. Good.
So now the government's going to bail them out yes?
again?
Were you not around in 2008?
Decades long FAFO.
Gentlemen, this is democracy manifest.
Get your hands off my phalange!
Good.
I think Boeing have fucked up a little bit
There's a "vote for strike" sign posted on airport road by their Everett facility. I'm guessing there will be a strike? I didn't see the firefighter strike anymore for a few days now. I haven't heard if they succeeded in what they were looking for.
wow, you get onetwo a handful of planes fall apart in air and suddenly you're not "reliable" anymore. this is woke cancel culture at work!
fucken wokeratti and their ruffles through notes aircraft construction standards.
reaping what they sowed.
The one where the door fell off? Yeah that's not very typical, I'd like to make that point.
They’re too big to fail, so the government will bail them out to some extent. Though at least one’s odds of being stuck on one of their deathtraps the next time they fly will steadily diminish with each year that airlines opt for someone else.
Thanks, democrats...
Imagine being so angry all the time like this guy.
Must be exhausting.
/s ???
Unfortunately, nope..
Yep, just us democrats that hate our planes falling apart in flight!
They're not nearly cool enough to do something like this
Good. Maybe they'll be the first corporation forced to eat crow for their corner cutting.
Don't count on it, the government will bail them out if they drop further
I wouldn't be so sure. Government bailouts tend to happen because they're almost forces to. Where the economy can suffer greater loss without the bailout. Generally, in a scenario where a company or corporation has nestled itself into something the economy is dependent on. Of course what happens after that bailout is the bad part where it often seems nothing is done to alleviate the economy's dependency, nor is the actions of the body receiving the bailout regulated, monitored, or needing to pay it back.
I don't know how much dire a state the US economy would be in with Boeing missing or significantly damaged, but can't imagine it's perceived to be as bad as the crooked banks.
Edit: Oh, wait. The military is dependent on them. Yeah, there'd be a bailout lol
Boeing has MASSIVE government contracts, and does a ton for both the military and NASA. They're absolutely bailout material, as much as it hurts me to say.
I'm waiting for a condition of the bailout to be separating Boeing Defense from Boeing Aerospace, so the aerospace side can fail
Well looking at their income per sector commercial is the largest. And they probably split r&d across these sectors. So losing civil aviation probably would mean they can be less competitive as defense contractors.
BA is one of 30 companies in the Dow Jones Industrial Average used to measure the performance of the domestic market. It practically represents an entire sector but itself. The Fed will absolutely help BA
You think Trump would do that?
How would he have any say over what the government does? He doesn't even have control over his bodily functions.
I guess I'm just feeling pessimistic about the future tonight.
They'll just start selling their planes at a discount to win back buyers, then cut more corners to make a profit at the discounted rate.
What're they waiting for?
Stock prices to drop sufficiently.
I'd consider that to be "eating Crow", considering that's the one thing they're supposed to be concerned about.
They'll just use the opportunity to buy back stock.
Boeing should be nationalized. If a company is "to big to fail" they inevitably do because of bad leadership and greed. They need to be nationalized as part of the bail out package. But because our government is corrupt Boeing with get billions of tax dollars to save them.
Is it because their planes keep falling apart or because they keep murdering people?
It is because they murder them after they report on the whistleblower hotline. You have to act more strategic…
Right? It’s just sloppy to wait til they talk to off them
Yes.
You think it had anything to do with those planes breaking apart in the sky?
No, its millennials killing the aircraft industry.
Well, you might have a point. I'm a millenial and I didn't buy a single Boeing last month. Damn you, cancel culture!
I wish I could afford a Boeing, but I go to Starbucks 35,000 times a day.
Damn kids. No one wants to fly anymore.
You say that in jest but I am a former flight instructor that isn't particularly interested in going flying ever again, not since I dropped out of mechanic school anyway.
If you had cut out the avocado toast, you could have afforded your own wide-body jet liner before your 30s.
One Boeing 737 MAX = 6.5 million avocado toasts. You'd have to go without avocado toast for ... uh ... two weeks?
That's how we know you're not a millennial. A real millennial knows that's only one week's worth of 'cado toast.
Well, it's only 6.4 million Avocado toasts if you save some money on bolts...
Personally I only buy artisan aircraft.
It's so important to shop local. I buy my aircraft from companies down the road from me that share my ethical values.
we need to stop eating avocados and start buying more planes.
Grow upOkay - sorry. Too many trolls have given me a bad reflex action
Pretty sure they're joking.
Thanks for that. Sometimes I wish /s was more popular here, for tone-deaf people like me.
It's not needed. Need to think about the sentence.
How could millennials really be affecting aircraft sales? Obviously they couldn't, therefore the comment makes no sense if considered literally. However often millennials are blamed for everything else, so perhaps it's an amusing comment related to that phenomenon.
I know engineers at my work that would say equally dumb things like that unironically and mean it lol
I also don't get people's aversion to /s, do they also only speak in monotone?
Yes boomer, they speak in monotone.
Lmfao I'd love to know why that comment makes me a boomer
It doesn’t. It was sarcastic based on your boomer-like dependence on /s.
But if you think about it, millennials could be pushing a dialogue in popular media that Boeing is part of the big industrial war machine, and deserves to die. I’ve heard lesser fabricated arguments on the Internet.
In any event, thanks for the heads up.
No, they just didn't kill enough whistleblowers...
When you run an engineering company as a business, you wind up with no business at all
"Made in USA" is well on it's way from being a symbol of quality to implying a lack of. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big proponent of domestic manufacturing. But there are an outsized number of executives who don't seem to get that when you make shitty products, you will alienate all your customers who will then no longer buy your shitty products. That kind of reputational damage is incredibly hard to recover from. Especially when you make airplanes that have a tendency to fall out of the sky which is sort of a deal breaker for people who want to buy an airplane. Hope it was worth jacking up their stock price for five minutes.
US Cars have been an international joke since the 70s. And Boeing's success is largely in contrast to McDonald Douglas, which crapped out back in the 90s and was forced into a merger to get bailed out. This isn't an issue of "American Quality" so much as it is an issue of "Traditional manufacturing methodology" being whittled away over time by profit-obsessed shareholders and C-levels.
Boeing was a little late to the party, but that's got nothing to do with American symbology. Everyone from Intel to Burger King have been on this trajectory for decades.
It was for the CEOs who already cashed out and abandoned the company, yes.
I understand the label is practically not enforced with very nominal fines if you’re found in violation.
“Made in the USA” can be sewing on the label in a factory that hires >50 people.
There’s nothing inherent to running a business that implies cannibalizing one’s own brand reputation for short term profits. That sort of behaviour reeks of an inexperienced and perverse management culture. You can find countless examples of businesses where the brand’s reputation for quality, reliability, and safety are considered sacred and any employee who publicly damages that reputation is ostracized. Japanese companies pretty commonly have these cultures, for example.
They replaced their management, who were mostly engineers with MBA’s, to business majors with MBA’s who worship Jack Welch. The IQ in the room plummeted as the ghost of Welch demanded sacrifices for short term gains so they might one day get their golden parachute.
True but only for a snapshot in time. When the expectation of the environment is unlimited growth and profit above all else, the quick cash out in lieu of long term gains is inevitable sooner or later
Oh outside of the USA yes, I can see that... In the USA, I think I would count such examples with 1 hand (talking about large companies and corporations, not Mom and Pop shops of course)
Generally a business runs for profit. They teach people in business school to maximize profits. So there kind of is something inherent to running a business that implies cannibalizing one's own brand reputation for short term profits. There is always that incentive to give the least amount for as much as you can take.
Japanese have immortalized a concept called "Black Company" and "Death March" where they push their employees into so much overtime that they literally die or risk losing their livelihood. Which is probably not great for long term or their reputation.
It’s called “Wall Street”.
That's true that shareholders and stock evaluation are main drivers for this phenomenon, but Private Companies aren't necessarily more saintly than companies with Public Offerings.
True, but in my experience, selling stock publicly is the ticket to hell. No matter how much of your company you think you still own, you’re going to be driven to make higher profits every quarter, no matter the cost. If you don’t comply, they will replace you with someone who will.
Countless examples? I can't name ten.
This. It's exchanging long term success for short term wins. I doubt they are going to be the only victims of business over engineering. It's going to be a slow burn for a lot of companies. Most companies that go this route will slowly crumble as their products enshitify, but the thing is, in most cases, no one will get hurt.
This should have never happened in the aerospace industry.
Sounds like they've entered the, "find out," stage.
They're still working for US Government and have military contracts. They're fine.
The company itself maybe, the people responsible for the downfall not so much.
The C-levels probably got huge bonuses for saving tons of money, while having a super high paycheck anyways and when the boat finally goes down they will just hop into a C-level position at a different company where their main focus will be again to save tons of money.
C-level positions truly are the most insane thing in this capitalist hellhole that we live in. They come and go (usually in a 2-5 year cycle) and their next job is secured no matter their performance.
Makes you long for golden parachutes that don't open when their 737 Max loses an engine or two
The people that set us on this path moved on long ago.
Too bad they're a defense contractor and "too big to fail".
Every one of those lost orders will come out of the pockets of US taxpayers when Boeing is bailed out.
When the Boeing plane crashes and explodes >:(
When the Boeing rocket crashes and explodes >:D
When the Boeing plane crashed and explodes >:(
When the Boeing rocket crashes and explodes :(
I wonder if the investors are happy yet
The investors that matter, probably. I have little doubt it will be the "little guy" who has a 401k with Boeing investments that takes the hit. The C-suite executives will have golden parachutes, and anyone powerful/rich enough will either insider trade it away or get bailed out.
Good fuck this company. I'm sure all the military contracts will keep their pockets lined unfortunately.
more to the point: fuck the McDonnell Douglas Corporation. Oh, fuck them both, sure, but Boeing died a long time ago. It's just McDD wearing Boeing like a horrific skin suit.
2019: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/11/how-boeing-lost-its-bearings/602188/
2020: https://qz.com/1776080/how-the-mcdonnell-douglas-boeing-merger-led-to-the-737-max-crisis
2024: https://finshots.in/archive/did-a-1997-merger-ruin-boeing/
2024: https://www.newsweek.com/merger-that-brought-boeing-low-opinion-1867937
Mmm McDD
Oh, what a terrible day to have eyes
Quick, put some AI in it!
I think they tried that before it was cool. Something about the handling of the newer aircraft that was responsible for a few accidents.
Just fire more of those stupid engineers and scientists and run some more AI on it. Us business majors know best!
"Training data"
Maybe let the engineers take it over again
They're likely the last group the C-suite listens to so it's probably a good idea. Shame it won't happen.
Nobody wants planes that fall out of the sky and lose sections mid-flight? Why not?
What a headline. It literally fell 3%... That's not much. Actually still higher than their April value. They dropped more than 50% in the beginning of the pandemic and have not recovered from that. Whereas Airbus easily pushed higher than pre pandemic level. So yeah not looking good since a long time.
Good. It sure would be nice to see a company held accountable for enshittifying so thoroughly.
It's a feature not a bug. Everyone wants easily removable fuselage components.
Capitalism working as it should for once, even on a megacorp.
Apparently some people with money think there is going to be a big expansion in air travel.
The biggest limiting factor in airplanes is the production speed. Building airliners is slow which is why there are very long waiting lists. Nothing's wrong that's just planes. New planes are cheaper to operate so its a good idea to order new planes even if you're not planning a significant expansion.
This is also why airlines will be slow to react to boeing's safety record in orders. Switching orders means losing your place and going to the back of airbus's waiting list.
Kinda yes, kinda no. There have certainly been times, particularly after 9/11 and various crises, when demand dropped significantly.
There's also airliners that just haven't sold well. A340NG, A380, 747-8, 767-400, the MD-11, until recently the Cseries/A220. The A330neo has also not sold particularly well and you could probably get a slot within a year easily.
True, but this article is specifically about the 737. Apart from the a220, none of the aircraft you listed are both in production and part of the 737's market segment.
The a320 neo family has about 7000 orders awaiting delivery. It is not feasible to switch for most airlines for the reasons I previously mentioned.
Market correction at work. Good.
So now the government's going to bail them out yes?
again?
Were you not around in 2008?
Decades long FAFO.
Gentlemen, this is democracy manifest.
Get your hands off my phalange!
Good.
I think Boeing have fucked up a little bit
There's a "vote for strike" sign posted on airport road by their Everett facility. I'm guessing there will be a strike? I didn't see the firefighter strike anymore for a few days now. I haven't heard if they succeeded in what they were looking for.
wow, you get
onetwoa handful of planes fall apart in air and suddenly you're not "reliable" anymore. this is woke cancel culture at work!fucken wokeratti and their ruffles through notes aircraft construction standards.
reaping what they sowed.
The one where the door fell off? Yeah that's not very typical, I'd like to make that point.
They’re too big to fail, so the government will bail them out to some extent. Though at least one’s odds of being stuck on one of their deathtraps the next time they fly will steadily diminish with each year that airlines opt for someone else.
Thanks, democrats...
Imagine being so angry all the time like this guy.
Must be exhausting.
/s ???
Unfortunately, nope..
Yep, just us democrats that hate our planes falling apart in flight!
They're not nearly cool enough to do something like this