Do you approve sex work? Why or why not?
I'm not against those who work for sex, but the idea to earn for a living doesn't seem nice. IMO, sex should be for 2 people (or more for others who prefer polyamory) who wants to be intimate/romantic with each other. My point is money should not be the purpose.
Why do you get to have an opinion on something between two strangers that otherwise doesn’t affect you
I have an opinion because it affects anyone sexually active that is not in an exclusive relationship. Legalized sex work would increase sex worker healthcare, directly reducing national STD numbers.
Legalized and well regulated*👌
Yeah, libertine social values historically died off through STD epidemics. Puritanic cultural strictures were ultimately survival mechanisms in societies that didn't have safe sex practices and technology.
Sure, Im not directly affected, but feel bad for people needing to work for it.
Well that just seems like an opinion on the human mindset dating back thousands of years.
And what about women who marry guys for their money, in order to be trophy wives? Is that sex work?
And what would you suggest incels who are hopped up on repressed hormones and horny intentions do? Would you rather they rape an unconsenting woman? Or pay money to a consent for pay woman?
And what about women who ENJOY sex work? You know how they say never make your hobby your living? Well, maybe that doesn't apply when you're taking it in the ass for $1000, and orgasming all over the ancient oriential throw rug.
And what about porn? Should porn only exist from guys who leaked out private sex tapes? Without paid sex models who have no experience in acting, we wouldn't have such jems as the lemon stealing whores! I LOVE that intro! I've never seen the actual porn side of that video, but sometimes porn unintentionally creates cultural masterpieces!
I mean, honestly! Whats better every Saturday night than lighting some candles, putting on some light music, and just wackin' it to some pornagraphic video that highlights the peak of society. A woman trapped in the washing machine, and her stepbro finding her completely helpless!
Don't worry, it's not prostitution, we have a camera so it's porn
I would rather not have sex workers subjected to those people and that they instead get the thearpy that they need. Its crazy that you seem to imply that men who can't get sex will just rape women.
And if they find sucking some dick less repulsive than sitting in a call center 10 hours a day?
Do you know they need to do it?
Ok yeah im not aware of those people tbh
Take this and apply it literally every aspect of western culture. It seems like you personally have strong feelings about how you think sex should be, but there are many, many people who disagree. We live in a society, I say mind your own business if someone's doing something you don't like that also doesn't affect you
Found the Joker.
Baybeh
Out of curiosity, why does sex need a purpose? Why should it be or not be for anything in particular? What makes it any different from, say, juggling?
Sex work isn't just prostitution, by the way. It's anyone making a living off of sexual content. If you're shooting porn or are a cam girl, you're a sex worker as well.
Prostitution is problematic in that currently, because it's an illegal service, it's largely being performed by people who don't have a choice in the matter. Human trafficking is a huge problem. If prostitution were legalized and regulated, if the societal "we" changed our collective attitudes towards it, life would improve for a lot of people. I struggle to phrase this next bit in a tactful way. If you're against improving the lives of so many people because it doesn't align with your view of sex should be for, that's pretty shitty of you. Not saying that's the case, I don't live inside your head, but that's how I see it.
In places where prostitution is legal, the amount of human trafficking goes way down, because the brothels in these places are usually inspected pretty regularly. They have to follow regulations or else they will be forcefully shutdown, and the employees being there willingly is usually one of those regulations.
out here you need a license for it as well. Which, from what I've heard, is not easy to get
I'm not against it if they think it will improve their lives. As i said on my other replies, im opening my mind to this topic. I just feel bad for people who gets life ruined because of it. They are not forced to do it, but some need to go hardcore (no pun intended) because that's their only way to survive during these hard times.
Office workers also sell their bodies.
Builders sell their bodies too.
Sex work is no different than any other line of work.
Yes but those jobs require at least an apprenticeship. There's no training to being a whore.
Adults have the abillity to engage in free enterprise, as long as all parties involved consent I see no issue.
Regarding sex, the only times you get to have oppinions about another persons sex life is...
...when you are part of it.
...when it involves underage people.
Why should money be a taboo reason to have sex? You don't get to pick and choose what motivation other people have for sex.
You don't have to engage with this type of enterprise if you don't want to, so leave other's alone.
In general, prostitution will allways happen, you can try whatever laws you want, but you can't stop it. The only thing prohibition acomplishes is to deny sex workers the protections they need to stay safe.
Or if it's not consensual, we should care about that too.
You generally implied this but it's worth repeating.
Very true!
Thank you for bringing that to light.
I also condiser passive participants to be part of the activity and get to have a say.
Stuff like exhibitionism, don't have sex in public view since that forces everyone in view to take part in your activity, even if only passively.
Outlawing prostitution is the same as outlawing drugs, it doesn't fix the problem, it just makes it unregulated...
While I agree with your argument that prohibition has seldom made anything better, the problem with prostitution is that it often does not happen voluntarily. While the transaction itself might still appear to be, in the background there are dire lives and more often than not human trafficking and extortion.
Germany has tried establishing sex work as “real” and regulated work for voluntary self-employed persons, including healthcare and consulting services. In the end this lead mostly to a steep increase in effectively illegal prostitution, as pimps used cover-constructs. Consequently forced prostitution esp. from eastern Europe flooded the marked with dirt-cheap offerings.
There is no easy solution for this. I believe that as with everything that happens within isolated milieus the only way to effectively tackle this problem is to reach out directly to the affected persons on a broad basis. But this is laborious and costly…
You raise some very good points, I don't want to pretend to have all answers.
Sex work is vulnerable work, and much depends on all parties involved earnestly waning to make and keep it safe.
As I was typing this, I thought that since we can't trust the private sector with this, what about forming a government agency to deal with licensing and care of sex workers.
But I quickly realized that the organizational issues are just part of the issues, there have been many, many examples of administrators abusing their position.
There is no quick fix for this, the one thing I can think of is a cultural shift to raise the status of the work, then it could be a way forward, but this takes time.
While I generally agree with your way of thinking, one problem I see is that higher status sex work (i.e. escort services) are not the issue but are already very expensive. The issues get more severe the closer you get to the lower end of the spectrum. And there it gets difficult in judging or controlling what really is voluntary and equal exchange of values.
More governmental control might be a solution worth exploring. This could also be realised by legalising sex work exclusively in controlled establishments. However that again leads to higher cost on all ends.
Sweden has banned buying sex but not offering it, so only the Johns are punished if caught. But that is no real solution imo and I am keen on seeing the long term effects of this.
This is the right answer.
Regulate it, keep the workers safe, ensure they're well compensated and tested. Basically, treat is like every other profession.
If two consenting adults want to exchange money for sexual favors, who cares? If the worker chooses to sell their body for money via sexual acts, why is that inherently worse than someone who does construction selling their body for a living?
I think if it doesn’t affect other people, and nobody is being exploited/everyone is participating willingly, then it’s none of my business what others choose to do.
I’m actually trying to help sex workers, particularly porn Creators, use the fediverse to take control of their social media. I want to help them keep control of their own destiny - https://xxxiver.se
There are two main "career paths" here:
Imo, the former is perfectly fine (because everyone involved is consenting). The latter is problematic and the actual problem we need to solve.
So many people conflate the two and assume that all sex work is exploitation. All mixed in with the implicit sexism that says women shouldn't have any autonomy over their own body and sexuality.
It's a pretty high percentage.
But it's a pretty high percentage for similar reasons to illegal pot sales funding terrorists or gangs/cartels. The legal status puts it way more in the purview of organized crime.
I mean, is it a high percentage? Feels like the kind of thing that you could fudge figures either way.
And yeah, we need to empower sex workers and give them legal and health support.
In the context of women being literal sex slaves, even 5 or 10% would constitute a high percentage that gave regular purchasers a reasonably high chance of encountering one. (I wasn't intending to play that semantics game, but it's worth noting regardless.)
I think it's pretty high. There are legal places that have some safeguards in place, but in most of the world there's just nowhere for a woman to say "I'd like to try sex work" and get an opportunity to do so. It's inherently the people on the fringes of society, the runaways with nowhere to go who end up reliant on a predator, the people addicted to drugs that have no way to get their next fix, the people trafficked. Even the "high class" stuff, because there isn't any legitimate entry point, is relying on tactics like calling it a modeling gig and then propositioning the models, and there's an inherent element of coercion* to that as well.
*Coercion isn't the perfect word choice but I'm blanking on a better one. Even if the intent isn't explicitly to manipulate the women, the result is a lot of wild emotional swings, then a pitch when you're still under their influence. And we've seen examples of people taken overseas and having their passports taken away, even by an NFL team. It definitely happens at a far more frequent level than we should be comfortable with.
I also know that male prostitution is a thing, and "women" isn't comprehensive. But it's mostly women.
I agree with pretty much everything you've said. I've just seen "it's a high percentage" to be a dogwhistle for "all sex work is inherently exploitation so we should ban it.", so apologies for assuming.
5-10% is far too high, yes. I don't know if I'd agree with that figure (it really depends on what you consider sex work, tbh), but exploitation is a serious problem that needs fixing.
This is where a good ol' "hate the game, not the player" applies.
I have no judgement of the people who do it to make money. Any issue I have is with the economy and culture that drives some to do it to survive when they wouldn't otherwise choose to.
Your point about money shouldn't be the purpose... but some people, especially women, are stuck where sex work is their best paying option. It's not their fault.
In a perfect world where no one is forced to do any particular labor to survive, when consent is given 100% of the time, and everyone's safe, I have zero issue with sex work from any angle. In this imperfect world, my issue is with the system and not the individuals working in the industry.
Yes. All the issues with sex work come from cultural and systemical issues. For example that it's very opaque for people outside of the industry, the stereotypes you have to deal with, people judging you constantly or it's not illegal everywhere.
And not to say there's not some fucked up shit happening in the industry.
I think the argument should be the same like with drugs: it's generally good, but it can be a problem and just for the transparency and oversight we need to make it legal everywhere but well regulated. That's my opinion.
Sex trafficking or impoverished/addicted people turning to sex work, no. Society has failed them and we need to fix the underlying problems.
Sex work as a concept I take no issue with. I think it solves a lot of problems interpersonally. Dating would improve with less need for people to hide their motives. People too busy or uninterested in relationships would have an outlet, and disabled people who otherwise can't attract a partner benefit greatly as well.
Migrants and vulnerable populations already take dangerous jobs, like roofing, and many will refuse to take really dangerous jobs if they don't feel comfortable.
Classifying sex work as some higher tier of danger is a bit silly imo. also it will happen whether or not it's regulated so by not having some kind of legal protection around it, people with no other option will end up doing sex work anyway, but with fewer protection from abusive pimps.
Those are also problematic examples, I didn't say it was a higher tier of danger than other high risk jobs.
I like looking at pictures of naked people, so I'm grateful to those naked people.
If sex is the question, I think yes (or thank you) is really the only appropriate answer...
Eh, sometimes "No, thank you" is also appropriate.
This is true. 😊
Sure it'd be great if basic needs like food, shelter, healthcare and yes, sex, weren't commoditized, but until we get
SexicaidSexicare for All, I'm fine with people making money from sex and paying for it. Legalize and regulate it for the safety of the workers and the customers.^Someone please come up with a better name than Sexicaid^Sexycare, or maybe sexicare?
omg I'm an idiot I was trying to riff off Medicare for All and used Medicaid instead, Sexicare definitely works
I don't judge at all. Not all sex work is sex for money, but even in that case, I think it's fine. There's nothing magical about sex. And there can be lots of reasons a person might not get all their needs met within a relationship.
I do worry it can be a trap for some, but I think it's a valid choice. Idk. I'm specialized (trapped) in IT work and whore myself out to corporations for money. Ultimately there probably isn't that much of a difference.
Eh, it's just a service in exchange for money. Just like a massage parlour or spa or doctor or chiropractor or hair stylist. Sex isn't special.
Totally fine with sex work. Just keep it safe and be nice.
I have no stake in anything sex related, but I've known others which can be described as insatiable. If they are willing and able to do that for of work, then what's the harm?
I don't guess it needs my approval but as long as there is a demand for the service it will happen.
Like you, I just like everyone to get sex for sex, that's how I've always done it, but that's a very recent outlook, it was very gatekept before and women generally were trading sex for something, and men were generally trading something for it. I remember being in high school and the only categories were girlfriend, slut, or just don't have sex, it was so fraught.
I expect there may always be a marketplace. And certainly don't hold any sort of bad feelings towards those trying to market themselves, if you can make a living at it, great.
Went to barber school with a lady who was doing job retraining after getting busted for prostitution. She said she really had enjoyed it, had few clients, all regulars, worked out of her home, made a good living. Wasn't bothering anyone until apparently someone noticed and was bothered.
It's a type of entertainment. As long as the people involved are of legal age and gave consent... I don't see a problem with it
Do you not believe in casual, not romantic sex?
Yeah i forgot about casual thingy. Maybe i should edit my post to include that, but the idea of money being involved is not something i'm comfortable with (yet? - i'm keeping my mind open for this discussion)
It's not for you to be comfortable about unless you're planning on paying or getting paid for it. That's like someone who paints their miniatures and agrees to paint the miniatures of a friend not feeling comfortable about money being involved, because he's doing that for other reasons, but there are professional miniature painters.
Anything you do for fun you're likely to be uncomfortable charging for, but you need to remember that that's not your job, and regardless of what your job is there's a good chance that someone out there likes to do the same thing for fun and would feel uncomfortable charging people for it.
It doesn't appeal to me either but I can imagine for some people it would
Do I "approve" of sex work? It's not my place to either approve or disapprove of what other people do with their time, their money or their bodies. The question is loaded to provide justification for your moral outrage.
It is also called the world's oldest business. They have done it long before I could ever judge it, and they will continue afterwards, whatever my judgement may be.
Personally i am ok with sex being for money, as long as its a choice. Nobody should be forced into sex work. One can say that work by definition is exploitation but if one has multiple work options and they choose sex work as a line of work, i am ok with it being an option.
I approve of it in that it's legitimate work, unlike being a landlord, and lots of vulnerable people end up doing it as the only method of supporting themselves, as well as a lot of single moms trying to deal with making an income and parenting, etc. I would not disparage anyone doing it. Would I worry about their emotional and physical health and safety doing it? Yes. We have a sex workers collective drop-in center in my city who make efforts to try to help keep them safe, such as testing, condoms, etc, which is great. But I can't help but wonder how someone's mental health would be affected by just being a glorified blow up doll. There was an Ask Reddit once about what people saw on porn sets, and someone who worked on one said all the girls seemed really fake and unhappy and vacant emotionally, and that concerns me. I would not want anyone hurt by doing this work is my point, but I don't object to them doing it of course. Just please take care of yourself!
Edit to add: last weekend my church took a potluck to the local park where there is a small tent encampment of unhoused folks and invited them to eat with us, which they did, which was nice, and although they were shy we all talked a little, and some of them were clearly sex workers from what they talked about. One had what I think was scabies on her skin, and that's the kind of thing that worries me.
Not my business, but would hope appropriate precautions are in place for both parties involved.
I would never use those services. There is nothing wrong in offering them but I think there is something abusive in accepting the offer. Surely some people do it 100% because they love the work but I am fairly certain that most don't. And those who don't, won't tell you that they don't. So if you accept the service, you might abuse someone's desperation.
I like this answer, but he deleted. It's still in my inbox so I'm gonna share but not mention the commentor's name
Germany still has a problem with sex trafficking however they have a much better system than 99.9% of other countries in the world.
The choice/situation blends in with every occupation so as long as no aggression or wrongful leverage is involved.
It’s isn’t for me or anyone else to approve or disapprove of what others do for a living. If they aren’t hurting anyone, it’s none of anyone’s concern.
I don't work and I don't have sex so idk really, I don't feel like I'm the best person to ask about it
Legalize it, tax it, regulate it like any other job.
I'd not buy any, even when single.
I would consider selling before a lot of other jobs. Depends on the money really. Not much of a market for straight, average looking, men in their 30s however.
If you feel like money is a corrupting factor then don't hire a sex worker.
For my part, they're some of the chillest people I've gotten to know, and they're not hurting anyone just by their existence.
Not to mention that literally every action that even tangentially ostracizes or criminalizes sex work has horrifying blowback against victims of human trafficking and against sex workers in positions of vulnerability.
The Craigslist purge for example led to waaaaaaaay more dangerous working conditions for sex workers since it removed one of the few tools they had to reliably vet possible clients.
There's literally no approach to sex work other than just letting them fucking be that doesn't end up causing exponentially more harm to completely innocent people than could ever morally justify doing anything except just letting them fucking be.
It's just work, and it's just as valid as any other kind of work. I 100% approve of people who are of legal age and mental capacity that willingly do sex work.
Sucking a dick or fucking someone for 100 bucks is no worse than someone doing construction work.
I don't prefer that comparison. Sure both jobs need to be physically prepared. Even if both workers are treated equally by their clients, one of them cannot do the job in public.
You also can't do a pap smear in public, so what's your point?
What is your purpose, trololo? I’d really like To know.
I think within a capitalist system it is going to exist regardless of how illegal you make it so it should be made legal so that it can be more thoroughly regulated. However, I don't believe anyone should have to sell their body to make a living no.
So while I disagree with prostitution as an industry because of how it commodifies people (especially women) I don't think making it illegal within a capitalist society is a solution that helps anyone. Ultimately I would hope for a society in which prostitution would never be necessary for someone to meet their needs, one where love could be free but that isn't a realistic goal at the moment
I'm pretty sure prostitution isn't exclusive to capitalist countries
I didn't mean to imply that it didn't exist in socialist countries. Class and money still exist in these places because they are in the lower stage of communism so prostitution is likely to still exist too. I only meant that within a capitalist framework there is no way for it to not exist in some form
Yes and no. I believe that they are entitled to do whatever the hell they want for a living and are entitled therefore to workers protections and benefits. I do not however respect them at an individual level. So basically do what you want, just do it over there.
Fine. Let's set up a time, you show me what you can do, and I'll tell you if I approve.
It should be everywhere. As simple as buying a pack of cigarettes. For many is literally all the attention will get for the rest of our lives.
If both sides can choose who to engage with, would that sway you? It doesn't necessarily have to have the sweetness of intimacy or romance to it, it can be a fantasy and a means to an end.
I wish it would be everywhere and legalized as much as buying a Pepsi at the market. It sucks to be a virgin.
Conceptually I have no problem with it, but in practice a lot of people feel like they "should" or "have to" become sex workers out of desperation for money. That can seriously ruin your life. Work under capitalism is inherently unethical, but sex work especially so.
Yeah, I rubber stamp it all.
There are costs beyond the physical.
I agree with you that intimacy shouldn't be for money.
The sexually-transmitted infections ( I cannot understand how the modern population isn't 50+% infected with life-damaging infections, nowadays, and maybe it is, given how disinformation & "marketing" have completely replaced the value of correct-information that journalism used to have ) seem likely to rule the lives of both porn-industry participants & those who use porn as their frame-of-reference for deciding their own lives.
Getting the torquie out from the sex-work industry, however, de-criminalizing it, getting the pimps & organized-crime out of it, to make it safer for those who ( for whatever reason ) work in it, would require some serious restructuring of our cultures.
You've read that in other apes sex is traded by females for nutrition?
Male hoarding of rights/food/power/safety, making female trading of their intimacy for a portion of what the males had possessed as their "rightful exclusive possession", extends well beyond humans.
The thing is, we're supposed to be upright, not rationalizing pack-behavior, but instead dismantling it from us, making us all we can be.
That didn't happen, in the last few millenia.
It's possible that humankind will earn it, now ( The Great Filter, if survived, will produce this result, in about a century ).
but the prejudice is sooo deep..
You know that there is a story in the Abrahamic religions' Book of Genesis, about woman eating of "the fruit of the Knowledge of Good & Evil", which means MORALITY?
& sharing this eating with man?
Wasp-researchers in Panama ( from Exeter & Bristol universities ) discovered that altruism is generalized-mothering, among wasps.
Buddha Gautama stated that this is the case, 25 consecutive centuries ago: altruism is generalized mothering. The Buddhist phrase "all our kind mothers", in referring to ALL other continuums/souls, is rooted in this.
That the Abrahamic-religion men twisted a statement in their own scripture, in order to change it from meaning that women/mothers ate of morality, & shared it with men,
TO women committed the "original sin", & it cannot ever be revoked, & punishing/abusing women is now inherently-valid..
& holding that gaslighting for millenia..
Do you have any idea how fundamental the sex-racism is, in our religions & laws?
What culture/country holds that raising children is real economically-required-and-valid work?
Here in North America, that's a sick joke: raising children is .. treated as parasitism.
The male apes who hoard wealth, forcing female apes into prostitution for sustinance..
There's waaay too much of that, in our cultures.
Remove the need,.
That must come 1st.
Letting people do that if they want to, but cut criminality out from it, completely: criminalize pimping, human-trafficking, certainly, hard-line, but decriminalize sex-work that doesn't harm anybody.
( no protection against infections is harming people: protection ought be legislated, same as in any hazardous work )
do everything one can to prevent people younger than 21yo from doing it ( because brains aren't fully-developed until about then, which is the same reason that setting the legal-drinking-age to 21yo so significantly reduces deaths on the roads: younger people don't consider "no" to be as meaningful as people with older brains do ).
Put care in place for people who've been "turned into commodities" through abusive relationships, to get them out from that devaluation, instead of just letting the industry use their lives, & pretend that that's OK..
etc..
Really, living-wage legislation would cut into the "need" for sex-work, significantly.
Oh, & I've read that when sex-work is suppressed, rapes & domestic-violence both go up, so there's some displacement going on, between the categories, that way..
It isn't a simple thing, & I wish "commerce" & intimacy were so completely distinct that nobody would ever consider a Venn diagram showing intersection of the 2 categories, but .. the actual world doesn't work right..
_ /\ _
The knowledge of good and evil, id est, morality, is the knowledge of cooperation, since that is a force multiplier against the elements (and parasites, predators, famine and germs).
The notion of women as equals that deserve opt-in consent is very new in western society, and neither the Hebrews nor the Hellenic nor Roman cultures acknowleged their autonomy, hence a woman's virtue was protected either by her husband or male relatives.
As for rationalizing behavior, these days we leave teens to their own devices, but scorn young women for their sexual activity, and don't address sexual frustration of young men at all (which informs the rise of the alt-right and rampage killings in the United States), in fact the war boys our school districts churn out are the base of today's Republican party.
So we humans have the capacity to be rational, but it is very limited, serving to intervene regarding the threat of nuclear holocaust, but not to interfere with the threat of global ecology collapse. We can more easily visualize and accept the end of society than the end of capitalism, of transactional culture and dominance hierarchy.
By the time we normalize sex work, automated alternatives will be available.
I am not saying holodecks will be invented soon, but if everyone had access to basically Star Trek like holodeckes, why would we need real prostitutes?
But who will clean the biofilters?
It should at max be paid minimum wage. It's a job that requires no prior experience or education. Why should it be paid better than a gas station clerk?
Why does everyone focus on the minimum wage? Why does no one ask why there isn't a maximum wage?
Jesse Ventura does.