Tesla warns that a federal probe into whether it exaggerated the range of its cars may lead to a ‘material adverse impact on our business’

L4sBot@lemmy.worldmod to Technology@lemmy.world – 688 points – Tesla warns that a federal probe into whether it exaggerated the range of its cars may lead to a 'material adverse impact on our business'
fortune.com

Tesla warns that a federal probe into whether it exaggerated the range of its cars may lead to a ‘material adverse impact on our business’::Earlier this year, Reuters reported that Tesla had created a special “diversions team” to avoid dealing with complaints from customers about their vehicle ranges. 

84

No...fucking...shit...

I dunno. The musky chodelet has avoided consequences for his actions so far. I doubt there will be any significant change or punishment for tesla.

His simps will just run interference for him. Stupid shit like "well yeah range is lower because , it's science bro."

6 more...

"If we are investigated and it turns out we lied to get more sales, it could hurt our sales if we can't continue to lie about our products."

I get where they're coming from.

If there's a probe that results in no substantial findings, it would likely still impact sales for some period of time, simply because there was a probe. In that case, Tesla's concern is justified.

If, however, they do find that Tesla is exaggerating their range, then I hope the lawsuit is spectacular and expensive.

My parents have a Tesla (they bought it used), and its range is shite.

... which is why there won't be a probe unless there are findings first. And from the sounds of it, there are findings.

If Tesla really did create a "special team" to deal with this issue, then that means it's very much a real issue. Reuters is a reliable publication - they would have gathered evidence before reporting that.

Just goes to show that you should not create a situation where a probe like that is justified. This is all Tesla's own fault.

I think Tesla is above wild swigs in public perception. You’re likely already in a camp.

On the market, like most companies, they're most definitely not above wild swings in public "perception"

They've already been hurt from certain antics.

Tesla had a 28% favorable view in January 2022.

It was 13% in January 2023.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsman/2023/01/12/teslas-brand-is-tanking-survey-finds/?sh=671009552b78

The future is wild. Imagine the richest man in the world destroying his companies because he can't stop himself from Nazi posting.

I think there's a bit of a real anti-musk sentiment that is partially real and fair and partially extremely overblown.

Musk isn't a great guy, but I can't say I know a single billionaire that is. I have many friends who own Teslas and by all accounts they're great cars, I just went and checked out a new Model X my friend purchased and it looks great, feels great, sounds great and is arguebly better for the environment then most ICE cars. I wanted a Tesla for a long time too because it was the only viable option for quite a while and without a doubt pushed other companies to try and catch up, which is a good thing without a sliver of a doubt it my mind.

I don't know if I'd say Musk is a Nazi, but he definitely says some idiotic shit and outright lies for his own gain, but again that's certainly not a Musk-specific problem. We had fucking Donald Trump as president.

Edit: guess I'm in a ranting mood

It is honestly humorous how much Musk has managed to thoroughly destroy his reputation with the centristy crowd, Tesla was beloved as was SpaceX for genuinely pushing the envelope for what American companies could do, most of that praise should go to the actual engineers making those things possible. You'd have 'muricans coal rolling Teslas and actively destroying them out in public, now the right sorta like Musk because of how he took down a lot of the censorship at Twitter (which... Honestly I am torn about, because I am a firm believer in freedom of speech, but it's a private company yada yada don't want to get into that aspect it's a whole other can of worms) and the Left (who already weren't a fan of Musk for the most part) and the centrists absolutely hate him.

I don't know what calculous he thought he was doing, probably something about his bottom line and how the left is much more pro-tax the rich whereas he can fleece the right much easier with the, "one day you could be insanely wealthy like me" line.

If enforcement of federal laws does not cause a "material adverse impact" the penalty is far too low.

“…But investigating my frauding will affect my ability to continue profiting off my fraud.”

-Elon probably

Oh boo hoo!!!

If you need to lie to your customers to make a buck you don’t deserve to be in business.

Tesla and Elmo can both eat a dick.

Cry more you little incompetent trust fund shit. (Elon, not OP)

Is it mean to say I want this company to go bankrupt?

Elon is an idiot but if we could get him to fuck off to an island somewhere I'm hoping Tesla can still do some good.
I think they lit a fire under the big car companies and made them invest in electric. They are still playing catch-up.

But yeah I want Elon to disappear and stop being a dip shit.

True. I also disagree that he's an idiot. He's just an evil/asshole person.

Why not both?

I’m not a fan of Musk but dumb luck will only get you so far. He’s been successful for too long to be a stumbling idiot. Maybe a successful market manipulator that never got caught, or a great salesman for his ventures, but I wouldn’t use idiot to describe him.

And the “he started with millions” doesn’t cut it fully either. He’s the richest man on earth, surely he had to bet on the right things more than once.

He just never should be at the helm of a company structured like Twitter was. Apparently Tesla built their VP level around Musk with great success.

This is an SEC filing. They are required to disclose to investors that this is going on and could impact their investment. Pretty standard stuff. They are not complaining that the feds are hurting their business or scaring people away from buying their cars - at least not in this filing. All they are saying is there’s this significant thing going on that could have an impact on the company’s value.

It would probably be smart for Tesla to settle this quickly and quietly because their range estimates are completely bonkers. Some kind of “agree to disagree on testing methods and we will pay up and do a better job” thing without this going too far. A VW diesel-gate kind of situation would be devastating to them. Elon is such a polarizing figure to begin with and there are some pretty good EV alternatives out there now. The only real killer feature they have left is the Supercharger network. Before anyone says FSD, it’s a scam and it doesn’t work.

I might bring wrong here but I'm pretty sure the claim in the title is incorrect?

Tesla is under numerous investigations which are all disclosed in thar same filing, and any one of them could lead to what the title says.

The title makes it sound like it's THIS specific one.

This could do nothing for example, but the AP one could be really bad? Tesla isn't signaling out which one it thinks is the most materially damaging if they have to do something.

I believe you are correct. Maybe they are latching onto the range issue because it affects every Tesla owner, past and present. Also very easy to prove.

Tesla doesn't lie about the EPA range though. It's reproducible even if those aren't "real world" driving. If we want real world driving numbers that's up to the EPA to change the methodology.

Range displayed is always just an estimate anyway, with so many variables. If they've fudged what gets displayed somehow that is clearly bad and we need to know, but the EPA range (edit: on a brand new vehicle) is legit. I dont see how them being wrong on this would be so dire.

I think the AP investigations are a much bigger problem and also impact nearly all Teslas. What if Tesla has to disable AP or can't let people beta test FSD which could grind their data collection to a halt? That seems immensely more material adverse to me

Edit: clarity, but also to add, what if they can't even sell FSD period, and need to refund all sales of it, PLUS damages to owners?

Edit: Just some other thoughts on this only semi related to the actual accusation, but batteries degrade, and Tesla does show a degraded range on their estimates, but maybe we need better laws like EPA ranges must be met for X years. It would force manufactures to declare a range lower than the car is capable of (no one drives below 0%) as they would need a reserve. It would also help offset any variations from the actual EPA test. I believe Tesla warranties the battery for up to 30% degradation over 8 years or X km, so that would get lowered somewhat due to the reserve. I think something like this would be better for consumers overall?

Sort of yes and sort of no.

Tesla displays the vehicles "range" as the EPA range minus any battery degradation. The number doesn't fluctuate otherwise.

However, if you plus a destination into the trip computer, it actually computes the estimated efficiency and you can estimate the range from it.

Every other EV instead has a "guess-o-meter" which estimates the remaining range of your car based on current driving habits and derived efficiency by looking at the recent X number of miles driven.. this gives you a good range estimate which automatically factors in recent weather, terrain and driving habits. It also takes into consideration your current battery health.

Only the trip computer is particularly accurate. Tesla has theirs, while everyone can download the app abetterrouteplanner.

Personally, I think it's a relatively non-issue. Rather, there is a methodological difference between estimating the range. Gas cars, otoh existed for 100 years without having a range estimator.

Yeah, it's top line number is basically the estimated range at 250WH/mi given the cars estimate of battery capacity.

It's not hard to get or even beat 250WH/mi in good weather on relatively flat highway if you are moderately careful about it. It's definitely an upper limit though, which I think is appropriate. I don't care how much range the car has with a lead foot. Top Gear showed that an M3 can get better mileage than a Prius when both are doing performance laps, so that's kind of just a dumb way to measure range/efficiency.

Exactly. I don't think Tesla showing the EPA range after degradation and state of charge is anything to be concerned about. If there's a problem with doing that, then the problem lies with the EPA/regulations.

I'm not sure what this whole different numbers at 100% vs at 50% is unless they do turn on a guess-o-meter if you reach 50%, or maybe Tesla is fudging the battery degradation to show a higher 100% and then adjusts it as you start driving, but either way, I don't think it's the big deal this articles title is trying to make it out to be. The number at 100% will be accurate to the EPA test cycle on a new vehicle, and I think that's the critical piece here. They aren't lying about that. The numbers have been audited.

I do still think we need better more accurate EPA tests.

Edit: Actually if they are lying about the level of degradation to fudge the numbers, that could impact warranty claims and the 30% threshold, so that would be bad.

Some people have complained that their Tesla does half the estimated / EPA range when they drive in winter. If those complaints are accurate then it's a valid complaint.

Everyone knows range is weather affected, but not by half. If it's that bad then people need to be told - they shouldn't find out when they get stuck with a flat battery on the side of the road in a snow storm that they probably shouldn't be driving in. That's dangerous and it will happen if the range estimate says you have more than enough charge to reach your destination.

It would probably make sense for the EPA to have a cold weather test to help give a better picture.

Cold weather really isn't 50%, especially with the heat pumps. Like maybe on a non heat pump, if you don't preheat, and have a lead foot directly onto a highway, but even then.

All that said, none of that is the doom and gloom of the title if that's all it is.

I still think the real risk is from AP/FSD.

This range thing probably won't result in anything significant

Yeah, you definitely need to be careful and the conditions need to be close to ideal, but I routinely get the rated range in a model 3 without any trouble. It's like any other car though - elevation change, weather and driving habits play big roles in efficiency. The car also has nearly 500hp on the top end so it's very easy to kill your trip efficiency with even just one or two bursts of high acceleration.

A VW diesel-gate kind of situation would be devastating to them.

Dieselgate is estimated to have killed 5,000 people per year in Europe alone (and they were selling those cars worldwide).

There is a big difference between lying about how far your car will go on a charge and releasing toxic (and illegal) chemicals into the air while the car is driving... especially when the car has the capability to capture those chemicals but the system was deliberately setup to only activate while the car was undergoing safety checks.

VW's "solution" to the scandal was to basically do what Tesla is accused of right now. They modified the car to give it worse MPG in winter than what was advertised to buyers (as far as I know, the system to capture chemicals requires a lot of heat, and you need to run the engine at higher RPM to create enough heat in winter).

Where I’m going with the comparison to VW is we don’t know where that rabbit hole goes with Tesla. Diesel-gate just kept getting worse for VW the more investigators dug into it. Tesla appears to be an even less professional operation. I can only imagine what would come out if there was a real investigation there.

If people find out that we lied, they will know what we lied!

Lying about your shit product will do that, yeah

To put some numbers on it..

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1V6ucyFGKWuSQzvI8lMzvvWJHrBS82echMVJH37kwgjE/edit#gid=866693557

I don't think anyone in the US tests EV like TeslaBjorn to make a spreadsheet about it, although I guess you could find out the EPA ranges of all those cars, convert km to miles, and get a reasonable one.. percentages would be different as WLTP is a different test (it tends to exaggerate ranges, so will be higher, although nothing like the clusterfuck that NEDC was).

Polestar must be worried too.

it's such bullshit though claimed range 540km, actual range 400km in ideal temp conditions. thats not a small exaggeration. it's straight up bullshit.

Still waiting for robo taxis. That's false advertising.

Why do people think robo taxis don't exist yet?

They do, and they cause a lot of havoc on the roads where they operate (San Fran)

Not tesla robotaxis.

Musk has been pitching "FSD will let you loan out your car as a robo taxi when youre not using it" for years. He literally said you would be a fool for not buying it.

Telsa hasent even gotten to the point where they autonomously cause havoc like Cruise or Waymo. They are just nothing instead.

But is it a Tesla Robo Taxi? Using software only from Tesla?

Oh no, anyways...

What are you going to get in this weekend?

Maybe bed bath and beyond but not sure if I'll have enough time

That's the point, yes.

This is the best summary I could come up with:

Tesla says it has received requests for information and subpoenas from the US Department of Justice related to potential personal benefits violations, the advertised range of its vehicles and personnel decisions.

The Wall Street Journal in September reported that federal prosecutors are investigating perks provided to Chief Executive Officer Elon Musk going back as far back as 2017, including a project described as a glass house for Musk.

Earlier this year, Reuters reported that Tesla had created a special “diversions team” to avoid dealing with complaints from customers about their vehicle ranges.

The filing warned of “the possibility of a material adverse impact on our business” should the government pursue an enforcement action.

The subpoenas add to a mounting number of government probes into the electric-vehicle maker.

In September, the US Equal Employment Opportunity Commission sued Tesla alleging that it has been “tolerating widespread and ongoing racial harassment of its Black employees” at its Fremont, California, plant.

The original article contains 196 words, the summary contains 155 words. Saved 21%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!

“If we can’t lie about what it can do, how can we sell our product?” is an absolutely wild admission.

Yeah, if I was investigated for fraud, it would also have an adverse impact on my business as well. We should just never investigate fraud then I guess.

tesla warns that being outed for lying about range will make people not buy their cars.

I only visit the comments of these kinds of posts to see the "praise me" comments from people that bought one of these and needs randos to know they made a good purchasing decision.

Careful Elon the shit flying out of your mouth might make dingleberries on those pubes you got growing on your face

It feels telling of corporate media that they chose to frame the company under suspicion of fraud complaining about the government investigation ruining their profits as a “warning.” As though they’re experts reporting on their predictions about a natural phenomenon or a policy proposal and not… you know… the criminals crying foul.

Counting the days till you eat your hat

Why is this tech news? Shouldn't this be car news?

Because it's about the leading company involved in transitioning cars from one core technology to another core technology.

But even so this bit of news is more about the business side rather than about the technology.

Fortune once again sterilizing the headline.

if they didn't want to report the uncomfortable facts, they could just choose to not report anything.