Is there any christian religions that don't believe in space?

Cstrrider@lemmy.world to No Stupid Questions@lemmy.world – 295 points –

So I have a born again christian family member in their mid twenties who stated with complete confidence that there is a dome in the sky called the firmament and beyond it is where heaven is. She believes space doesn't exist and rockets just blow up because the bible said so. She is not the brightest and normally I would let this sort of nonsense go but I work in aerospace and have multiple pieces of hardware in space so she is either calling me ignorant or a malicious agent for the devil purposely lying for her so I got pretty annoyed. I can't find anything about this dome in a google search about religion and I suspect she ended up on a flat-earth YouTube channel that twisted a line in the bible to fit their beliefs and didn't actually get it from her church. I know its probably hopeless to help her understand how dumb and frankly insulting this belief is but I can possibly talk some reason if I understand the source.

Are there any major or minor religions, christian or other that believe space is a lie and only god is outside our atmosphere?

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So. the firmament is a thing.

Mostly these days, it's considered to be allegory, as apposed to firm fact. but people- typically Young Earth Creationist types- will insist the english-translated bible is the absolute word of god meant to be taken absolutely literally. (and will reject things like aging and dino bones because it was made to look that way. for some reason.)

there are some middle-ground type people who espoused a belief that there was a solid shell of ice- the firmament- and that it melted to create the cataclysm written of Noah's flood to explain why it wasn't there, but was there before.

They, uh, also tend to go in for a flat earth.

Watch out people!! Found another agent of Satan!! Let us pray to Baby Jesus!! 🙏

I like to picture Jesus in a tuxedo tshirt, cause it says like, I wanna be formal but I'm here to party too. I like to party, so I like my Jesus to party.

So she insists she believes the word says the world is spherical but that there is a dome in the sky. I think she got bored halfway through the video after they stopped talking about the stuff from the bible. I see that the firmament is real but as someone who was raised catholic I assumed all religions agreed that it was a metaphysical barrier between heaven and earth. After reading through the comments here I feel like she probably got this from YouTube/ticktock and not from her church.

I believe the ice wall thing was a theory proposed by Kent Hovind. Pretty sure he is/was in jail for tax evasion or something? When I was a teenager I ate his young earth creationist stuff up like candy.

Edit: I am aware that the firmament is a thing for a very long time, but I believe Hovind took that idea and proposed it as the reason for his flood and age of the earth theory.

So, uh, the Empyrean behind the firmament, made of fire/light, occupied by beings so holy, they are made of pure light: so fire/light = good/holy; christianity is still a sun god sect?

But then why don't they put 2 and 2 together and think the water fell off the sides when the ice melted

This was roughly the early cosmology of Judaism, but even by Jesus's time was being abandoned. For example, the Greeks and Romans were familiar enough with both lunar eclipses and the Earth being round that the generally accepted explanation for lunar eclipses was that the Earth was eclipsing the sun and casting a shadow on the moon, which we know was popular because in De Rerum Natura Lucretius appeals to keep more of an open mind as that might not be the only explanation (meaning it was commonly enough endorsed that it was nearly considered the sole explanation in Lucretius's circles).

This may even connect to the description of the three hour "crucifixion darkness" in the earliest copies of Luke where it is explained as being caused by the sun being eclipsed. That language is changed in later versions, and the language of 'eclipse' was criticized by early church commentators given that solar eclipses were known to be impossible on a full moon (such as Passover) and only last around 8 minutes.

But what's often overlooked was that being written after 50 CE, visible nighttime lunar eclipses whose previous Saros cycle eclipses were during the daytime (and not visible) in the 30s CE would have allowed the latter to be trivially calculated by astronomers of the time.

Lunar eclipses take 3 hours, and have a 1 in 6 chance of occurring on Passover. We even know there was a daytime lunar eclipse on Passover of 33 CE, whose subsequent Saros cycle eclipse was visible in both Judea and Greece before any of the Synoptic gospels were written.

So not only was some of the anti-firmament cosmology known by the era of the New Testament, it's quite possible that there was even originally text reflecting both knowledge the earth was round and that lunar eclipses are caused by the earth eclipsing the sun in the New Testament, but it may have been subsequently removed because later editors failed to realize the event was not an eyewitness testimony but a calculated celestial event and thus dismissed it as erroneously describing an impossible solar eclipse.

TL;DR: Your family member is nearly going pre-NT with the commitment to that cosmology there.

Amazingly thorough ! Nice ! I've encountered many flerfs talking about the firmament but never really wondered where that idea could have come from.

What wasn’t reasoned into her head, can’t be reasoned out.

Sounds like there’s a good chance that you may need to apply a method I use when dealing people who believe in conspiracy theories. It’s largely a psychological thing, and it has very little to do with proof, evidence, logic, reasoning and science. No amount of evidence is ever going to solve a problem that is psychological in nature. Religious cults and conspiracy groups share some characteristics, so maybe this is applicable in her case too.

The idea is that people believe in crazy BS because that makes them a member of a group. That gives them an identity and makes them feel like they’re a privileged group for knowing some “hidden truth” about something. It also produces an “us against them” dynamic between the in-group and the out-group. Many individuals in these groups also have sub-clinical psychosis, narcissism or paranoia accompanied by anxiety and loneliness. This setup means that they find these BS nonsense groups appealing, and that the misguided beliefs become essentially bullet proof. Fighting against these beliefs will only make them stronger.

These people need therapy more than evidence.

So what's your method? I don't think you ever actually spelled it out in the comment unless you meant sending them to therapy, which isn't a bad idea.

Forget all the evidence and facts. Provide psychological support instead.

They'll just consider psychological help as brainwash attempt and reject the help.

There's no help for them. It's sad really.

Just be kind. Be a human. Ask them how their day went. Listen to their worries. You don’t have to be a psychologist or pull any complex therapy maneuvers. Leave that to the professionals. Just having a normal every day chitchat can be surprisingly helpful to someone who is living in a completely different version of reality.

Just talk about other every day things, and avoid the topic of delusion.

I'm confused, can you describe the method you use directly? my only tool for dealing with people like this is ignoring them and cutting contact, it'd be nice to have some tools in case it happens to someone I actually like

These people might be in a vulnerable spot, so help and support are the types of things they really need. Be a human to another human. Provide social interaction, friendship and understanding.

Facts and debate will only push them further away from reality and deeper into a fantasy realm of their own. They find it appealing, but it won’t actually address their problems.

Interesting, because it seems that lack of identity and hobbies is causing this. It is like when people become fan of product such as sport teams, a car manufacturer, an operating system so they can feel included.

The difference is, the low fee entry to believe systems, you don't need to think or spend money, just listen or watch YouTube videos.

Maybe OP need to take these family members to join club or something else where they replace this passive lifestyle with a little bit active one.

That’s true. The feeling of community plays an important part in many conspiracy theories. Humans are social animals, so social interaction is essential for wellbeing. If you’re lonely, you’ll naturally crave for a sense of community, and that’s exactly what many conspiracy theories will provide. Alternatively, you could build a kite and go to the nearest park and talk to all the other people flying their kites, but it’s a lot easier to watch conspiracy videos and join those forums.

On top of that, there’s a strong sense of in-group vs. out-group. That’s basically just a modern version of tribalism. It’s the usual “us against them” setup all over again.

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Like others have said, this is flat earther stuff. A lot of Christian evangelical types question things like the Big Bang and how old the universe/Earth really are, but afaik there isn’t an entire religion with this as a belief.

I used to work at a space museum and we would get Christian folks who would sometimes argue with us over the number that was on the sign telling them the age of our Moon rock, but never that the earth was flat. If that is a thing, it must be new.

Questioning The Big Bang is somewhat ironic, as it was initially Georges LemaĂŽtre, a physicist and Catholic Priest who was the outlier.

That’s why I specifically said Evangelicals.

Here is just one example:

Deutsch gained notoriety in late 2005 and early 2006, when it was reported that he had instructed a NASA website designer to add the word "theory" after every occurrence of the phrase Big Bang.[1] In his memo to the website designer, Deutsch wrote that the Big Bang is "not proven fact; it is opinion... It is not NASA's place, nor should it be to make a declaration such as this about the existence of the universe that discounts intelligent design by a creator... This is more than a science issue, it is a religious issue." The memo also noted that the AP Stylebook calls for the usage of the phrase "Big Bang theory".[1]

Prior to the 2004 Bush/Cheney presidential campaign, Deutsch had been a student at Texas A&M University. His NASA rĂŠsumĂŠ falsely asserted that he had a B.A. degree in journalism, but in February 2006 a blogger at The Scientific Activist discovered that he had never graduated.[2] This was subsequently confirmed by Texas A&M, and Deutsch resigned from NASA.[3] Deutsch later returned to Texas A&M and completed his degree that year.[4]

James E. Hansen, the director of NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies, and several other career NASA scientists and public affairs officials had been interviewed by The New York Times in January 2006. In these interviews, they complained about "intensifying efforts by political appointees in NASA, including Deutsch, to control more closely" the content of their public statements.[5] Deutsch, speaking to the New York Times, gave his opinion that Hansen had exaggerated the threat of global warming. He denied lying to NASA about his college degree.[5]

This is dipshit flatearther stuff. Ask them about the ice wall around the disc of the earth next time you see them.

The idea of a firmament is definitely a thing and has been for thousands of years. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firmament

I’ve heard about it all my life from mainstream Christian churches too. Though it’s more of a metaphorical thing than physical. Like it’s a supernatural reason why we can never get to Mars rather than being a glass dome.

I always had the impression that firmament was synonymous with atmosphere for some reason. I'm not sure where I got that idea.

there's been a lot of ways of rectifying what's obviously true and scriptures over the years.

which is amusing because they'll do anything to not admit their scripture-writers were wrong. It was written by people with a fixed- and flawed- understanding of the world they lived in. (We too have a fixed and flawed understanding, in point of fact. Its a bit better than theirs, mind, but it's still flawed.)

"yeah. they believed that. they were wrong" isn't really all that damaging to the over all story. But they think it is.

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Some religions update their interpretations. The Catholic Church, for example, has taken different points of view over the centuries on various things as they were proven to be false.

most denominations and sects do, yes. There are still those more fringe-cases that absolutely do not.

If I remember correctly, the Catholic Church doesn’t even rule out alien life at the moment. I remember reading a while ago that they were skeptical, but if aliens are proven to exist, they hope to find an alien species that did not betray God like humanity did in the garden of Eden.

It's not a betrayal, because they were innocents and had no knowledge. in that story, god created the scenario and then allowed it to happen... and then gaslit the shit out of humanity ever since.

WDYM we also have a fixed understanding? I'm as fluid as science.

History is full of great and not so great scientists who just couldn't accept a paradigm shift that totally changed their field of science.

Germ theory for example was a big one that got rejected by most of the medical scientists and professionals for decades.

I mean our conception is fixed to what we currently know. (Or “know”) in the broad scheme of things it would be rather rare to come across something that changes your fundamental understanding, right.

Looking back we can see that a lot of what people thought was straight up stupid. like barnacle geese… coming from… barnacles

But an observer looking back from far in the future at us… will likely see some of our beliefs as ridiculous.

I guess the realistic equivalent might be our local group. We can reach galaxies within it, but everything outside is moving away too fast for us to reach?

You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. She believes this because it's a follow-up on the "the bible is literally true" position she has taken as an apparently core part of her personality.

Unless you're looking for a fight, consider just ignoring this person. Otherwise, call her out and make her call you a liar in front a crowd.

Let it go, friend. Don't let a moron get you riled up. If it helps, just take comfort in the fact that the majority of the problems in this person's life will be self-created, but they will be too goddamn stupid to realize it or take the actions in their power to correct them.

I’m curious if anyone else is able to provide an example here. Personally, I grew up in an extremely right-wing, very isolated, very culty version of the southern baptist church. I was around young-earthers, anti-vaxxers, anti-evolution folks, dinosaur/man co-existence, believing black people are black because they’re cursed—all sorts of crazy whackadoodle shit. I never once met someone who didn’t believe in space. I think you’re right that this was a YouTube Fact™ that she picked up somewhere.

It's a thing, but even the creationists debunk it.

The summary is that, ancient people did conceive of the sky to be solid, but the Bible itself never says so in unequivocal language.

One could interpret the word used for "firmament" as being synonymous with the atmosphere and interstellar space and the texts still make sense.

https://creation.com/is-the-raqiya-firmament-a-solid-dome

The understanding of the world also changed during the immense time of writing

Yeah, I came from the same background. Dinosaurs bones are a test put there by the devil to make believers doubt the young earth shit, the asteroid belt was originally the planet that Lucifer dwelt on, and God destroyed it when he cast him out, and that's why it's there, all kinds of shit. Never had someone tell me space wasn't real, though. I'm sure a lot of them had a geocentric model stuck in their brains, or maybe didn't believe in existence outside of the solar system, but the shepherds needed the star to guide them to Bethlehem, so they at least believed in space.

I can't find anything about this dome in a google search

I gotta question your methodology here a bit, because just googling "firmament" will get you quite a lot of results and you don't have to read very far into the actual Bible to come across the term (depending on the version of the Bible you read, different translations use different terms, sometimes I've seen "vault" used instead) its probably going to be right there on the first page of Genesis.

Now the Bible doesn't exactly do a great job of describing the firmament. Coming up with an actual model for for the heavens and the earth kind of fell to various scholars over the years trying to make sense of it.

In general, if you take it literally, the firmament is normally interpreted as a sort of solid structure somewhere up above the sky that separates heaven and a whole bunch of water from the rest of creation and probably more or less resembles a dome above a flat earth. The exact structure of all of that will vary quite a bit depending on which denomination and scholars you listen to.

Even the word firmament should kind of clue you in that it's supposed to be kind of solid, you can really go down a linguistic rabbit hole through all manner of English, Latin, Greek, Hebrew, etc. words with this but for the most part you'll get the impression that you're supposed to believe there is some sort of physical barrier there

Most of the mainstream sects have adopted somewhat less-literal interpretations over the years because obviously the science doesn't support that interpretation at all.

But of course there are a whole lot of absolutely wacky Christian denominations (all of them are at least a bit wacky, but some really go the extra mile into the heart of crazytown) and even in the less-insane denominations some individuals pick and choose and come up with their own batshit interpretations of things.

Off the top of my head, I don't know which sects stick to a literal interpretation of it being a solid dome, but I'm absolutely sure they're out there, but most of them are probably not very mainstream, most of them are probably independent churches not affiliated or only loosely affiliated with any larger organization. And a lot of people who believe it are probably picking it up outside of any organized church and either coming up with their own interpretations or getting it from some wackadoo on the internet.

Trying to talk sense into her is probably an exercise in futility and I would not have even the faintest idea of how to go about doing that. If you do want to learn more about her specific beliefs though, a good place to start is probably going right to the source and figuring out which church she goes to and where she's getting her info- what websites, books, YouTube channels, etc. and the best way to do that is probably just to ask her. Don't try to argue with her and convince her she's wrong, you're not going to get anywhere, just get some links and recommendations, she's probably going to view it as a chance to convert you and born again types are all about that, she'll probably dump a whole bunch on you.

Now the Bible doesn't exactly do a great job of describing the firmament.

It simply doesn't describe it at all.

Also, the Bible does not even try to be a lecture on physics, or astronomy, or an engineer's manual...

Bible does not even try to be a lecture on physics, or astronomy, or an engineer's manual...

And yet we have all met Christians like OP has who try to use it to guide their understanding of the physical world.

Christians who believe the earth is six thousand years old. Who think the whole earth flooded. Who believe that women were made from men...

There are Christians who will excommunicate you if you suggest the Bible isn't entirely and literally true.

To be clear I couldn't get a hit on a religion believing it is a solid impassable dome in the sky. I got hits on flat earther crap that sadly I knew about because another family member was a full fledged flat earther..... (These are all in-laws BTW). I also found the bible definition which only states that the firmament is a barrier between heaven and earth. I am mostly just trying to figure out where she got this nonsense from and I suspect it was going down a rabbit hole on YouTube that led to a flat earth video using the bible as evidence of the flat earth. She has a short attention span so she probably stopped paying attention after the part where they said the sky is a dome because she said the earth is round.

The important part about Flat Earther beliefs that always seems to get left out is that they're a fundamentalist christian sect.

They don't believe the Earth is flat because of "the evidence", or even necessarily that the Earth is flat that's just the corner of their belief structure that got famous. They believe that the biblical Truth from God is the enemy of Science and that "they" are trying to keep that from people, in order to lead people away from God. Then comes the "evidence" and "debates" which are them trying to meet non-believers halfway, but fundamentally not understanding how/why science is a way of processing information.

Fortunately/unfortunately most Flat Earther's got made fun enough publicly enough that they're not really preaching it anymore. They've since moved on to other apocalyptic religious movements like Qanon/MAGA.

Is she on TikTok? There's a lot of conspiracy theorists growing followings on there under the guise of religion, health, nutrition, etc.

How do birds fly inside a solid barrier?

Genesis 1:20, KJV:

“And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.”

A fish bowl is a solid barrier, how do fish swim in it?

You're going to have to accept that she is stupid and insane. Don't take it personally when the mentally ill person denies that your profession exists. She is delusional, and we must be patient with the crazies.

I agree with others, this seems like a flat-earther belief that has gotten mixed with Christianity's creation story.

I've heard of it before while browsing the internet, but not from any Christians I personally know. All the Christians I interact with (myself included) believe in a literal interpretation of the creation but nobe of us believe in a physical firmament. I will note that a single man I know denies the moon landing (for reasons I haven't bothered to ask) but even he still believes in a spherical earth and heliocentric orbit.

My understanding of Genesis 1:6-8 is that the firmament mentioned is the earth's sky or atmosphere itself, and not a physical barrier at the edge of the atmosphere. The easiest way to show this would be Genesis 1:20 where birds are described as "flying in the firmament of heaven". If the firmament was a solid object, birds could not fly in it.

The moon landing was faked. NASA hired Kubrick and he insisted on shooting "on location" for "authenticity"

This is a classic conspiracy theory back from the days when you could have fun with them rather than hearing about "the global elite are drinking the blood of children in a pizza parlor basement" and having to actually defend against such nonsense.

Yeah but birds are government drones where else would they fly? The air? They're heavier than that.

She believes space doesn't exist and rockets just blow up because the bible said so.

Ask her to show you where in the bible it says that rockets blow up. Or really where any of these things are in the bible.

I grew up in a super religious family and went to a Christian school for my whole childhood. Most people who claim to be religious don't even read the Bible, and as soon as you ask them to point out where in the bible it says the things they are claiming it says, their argument falls apart. On the off chance they are able to point to a passage where it says it, 9 times out of 10, theor interpretation is the most idiotic way you could interpret it.

Even by fundamentalist/Young Earth types, it's considered pretty extreme, but yes, literal belief in the firmament is a thing.

People like her keeps religions alive. Please ask her not to procreate.

But her religion specifically says to go forth and multiply! /s

"Creationism" has some weird ideas about what space is. Though I will admit, some of those ideas would be pretty cool for a fantasy/scifi.

I yeah, this:

could be a cool premise for world building. Instead of 'they live in caves' they just live below the nominal 'surface'

actually the world building I'd like to see in a fantasy book is day/night elves (and sundry other creatures) on a planet where the axial tilt is 90 degrees.

It really is a great premise for fiction, especially if you replace the pillars with 4 elephants and a turtle.

Does she have a priest /pastor? Maybe have a sit down with that person without your family member present and see what their thoughts are. If that priest /pastor understands that yes space exists have them talk to your relative.

Oof. Even when I was a devout Christian I understood that space was a thing. Like ffs there's even a video sermon of a pastor showing a picture of a stars forming a cross I saw making the rounds a decade ago. Most religious people would find that belief nutty lol

In 6,000 year creationism, some sects believe there was a physical firmament (basically a shell of ice around the earth), but that it fell during Noah's flood.

Interesting, I've not heard of this shell of ice, and I believe in a young earth. I have heard though of a similar hypothesis based in Genesis 2:5-6 which proposes that it did not rain before Noah's flood and that plants were kept watered by a heavy mist and/or extremely humid atmosphere. Acoording to this idea, that excess water in the air and ground would've been all condensed by God as part of the flood.

I'm not sure I entirely agree with the hypothesis, and I do not believe it is essential biblical knowledge so I don't concern myself with it, but I have heard it before.

These are old beliefs from before the bible even existed. I'm pretty sure it was included in the bible though, but you know, even as a christian you can't take everything that's in the bible seriously

So she's reenacting the middle ages? A little LARP is fun.

Medieval people knew that the Earth wasn't flat. Them thinking it was flat is a myth that was made during the age of enlightenment to make Catholics look dumb, IIRC.

People in the middle ages weren't that dumb.
That's like a girl in the middle ages not believing that milk comes from a cow, even tho she's milking a cow every day.

Where is space ? If you launch a spaceship, you will land on heaven.

Look up the Christian philosophical concept, intelligent design

"Philosophical".

It's creationism, pure and simple.

Never said I agreed with it. Just pointed him in the direction of some of the more progressive ideologies.

ID believes in science and evolution, but believes that it was part of "God's" plan.

Creationists denounce those who believe in ID as atheists

I think we should push religion to be more progressive, and bring them closer to everyone else's reality. If not, the world will only become more segmented

Creationists denounce those who believe in ID as atheists

Utterly false. ID is a "wedge strategy" to insert creationism in science teaching and law making.

I think we should push religion to be more progressive, and bring them closer to everyone else's reality.

I think we should cut totally any influence of religion in education and politics. And then use education to help believers realize themselves that religion is nonsense and that they should drop it.

"Push religion" is leaving space to religions to be considered acceptable ideas. That space should be reduced to zero by exposing its absurdity.

There will always be people following religion. By making such a finite divide, and not inviting individuals from both worlds of thought to conversation, you're creating a larger divide. I think we want people sharing ideas, and being okay with each other, even though their worlds are different.

I think the world would be better without religion, but that's impossible.

There will always be people who can't handle reality by themselves and need to rely on the idea that there's a higher power looking out for them.

What we have today is a terrible divide, built by extremists on both sides. One saying you're going to hell, and the other saying your train of thought has no place in this world.

People will be people, and you gotta do what you can to get a common ground where everyone can exist together.

She is not the brightest and normally I would let this sort of nonsense go but I work in aerospace and have multiple pieces of hardware in space so she is either calling me ignorant or a malicious agent

In other words: so you decided to take it personally.

Not your best attitude.

I can't find anything about this dome in a google search about religion

It's at the very beginning of the Bible, Genesis 1:6-8 (but yes, her interpretation is a bit on the rare side :-))

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%201:6-8&version=NIV

I'd take it personally too if somebody didn't believe that I had satellites in orbit that are operating when I told them.

Like. No. she called him a liar. she may not have realized it, but yeah.

The trifecta would be hearing this from someone while driving in the car and on that drive, she happens to be using GPS navigation while telling you that space nor your satellites are real.

Nice Search tool :
(celestial vault)

And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.