Muslims disillusioned by Biden face difficult choice with Trump
thehill.com
Muslim voters disillusioned with President Biden’s position on Israel are facing the prospect of a difficult choice in 2024.
Muslim voters disillusioned with President Biden’s position on Israel are facing the prospect of a difficult choice in 2024.
No they don’t.
Same as everyone else, they can choose between a moderate and a fascist.
Everyone has issues they don’t want moderation on. That doesn’t mean they are stupid enough to back a person who explicitly says they want to ban them.
They can also just be less enthused and a few may not vote. They don't even need to decide not to vote - they can intend to, but with an additional logistical hurdle, it ceases to be something they do.
I'm not going to fight to vote if I think both candidates are happy to see me (and people like me) dead. And while Biden wrings his hands at the "jumanitarian" toll, it really looks like it's the political one that has his attention.
People will have legitimate feelings about that and we as Americans are not entitled to Muslims voting against Trump. Even if we desperately need it.
If we do desperately need it, we'll need to earn it.
I just think voting for someone who called for a full and complete ban on your religion entering the country absolves anyone of taking your position seriously in the future.
You say we as if “we” and Muslims are separate. We are all the same. We don’t have to earn Muslim votes. Our party needs to earn all of our votes. Just because they have a specific issue in world politics right now doesn’t make them any different than so many sub groups within the democrat party.
Nope. Like most things in the continued enshitification of life, the bleeding must be stopped before the wound may be closed. Voting for the lesser Evil is as required.
Every Election, no excuses.
The moderate in question being Genocide Joe? The bigger problem to me seems to be why the DNC is incapable of producing an actual viable candidate.
Edit: you can downvote to your hearts content, as long as you eventually come to the realization that we're headed nowhere nice regardless of how much we "vote blue no matter who". The GOP has made their position clear beyond a doubt. The DNC has followed that up by crippling Bernie for having hints of socialism to him when he actually had a good shot of winning, leading us to Trump. Biden was never wanted by anyone, even before this went down. He won solely on the basis of not being Trump, and is currently being hated for his own stances. And still we all know the DNC won't put up another candidate in 2024. Why? Are they not worried about Trump? Do they give a shit about the state of the country at all beyond maybe winning votes and securing donors? And even then the votes apparently matter less than the donors.
When you've got one party openly calling for fascism and the other party barely pulling the breaks on it, it doesn't take a lot to realize where you'll probably end up.
I keep seeing this nickname pop up but nobody seems to be able to tell me who Joe Biden has committed genocide against. The only Joe I know that’s committed genocide is Stalin.
Me. Joe Biden broken into my house and ate all my ice cream
Oh shit. Are you doing ok?
yup.
It may not be considered genocide, but Biden supported the Iraq war and other efforts which caused a lot of civilian deaths estimated to be well over 100,000.
You mean the war that was supported by virtually the entirety of Congress and the Senate, up to and including Bernie Sanders? That war?
They got fucking lied to and made a bad decision based on bad information. How is that anyone other than the Bush administrations fault?
Sanders didn't vote for the Iraq War. There were members that knew it was a big lie. So now we should feel bad for Joe Biden... poor guy was misled and lied to. By your logic, I should vote for any candidate... heck, I could vote for Trump, cause maybe poor Trump is just surrounded by people lying to him and he shouldn't take any responsibility for anything. Seriously, how many times are the corporate Democrats going to play the... "Who coulda known game?"
Let's approve this bill for a trillion dollars... oh, there was one person overseeing it and the President had authorization to fire them... hm, "Who coulda known?" You know it isn't a good look when your excuses for your party is that they were too inept at the time to do their job.
You said it better than I could. I tried. Biden didn't win because people like him. If they can't put forward another inspiring candidate soon, then there is a good chance Trump will get re-elected. I don't think the DNC even cares as long as it isn't a progressive candidate. Then in 4 more years they can say, well if you don't vote for our candidate you'll get worse. Rinse & repeat.
Exactly. It's just depressing when you actually sit down and realise that if nothing else drastically changes (which it won't just by voting) we're pretty much guarenteed to slide into whatever shit the GOP is willing to orchestrate due to the DNC's stance. We've basically got fascism and fascism-on-pause as our only options when it comes to voting. Obviously one still feels preferable to the other (nobody would claim otherwise), but take a look at the big picture and realize how screwed everything is if all we have to depend on is "voting blue no matter who" while hoping the blue's own shitty (in this case outright murderous) stances haven't managed to discourage enough people to stay home once again.
I'm optimistic but in other ways. I'm optimistic that people will wake up to the manipulation taking place on both sides, and start a movement that encourages education and self-awareness. Even then, we are pretty defenseless against AI and those that may control it, but at least we will have some insight into how easily we are manipulated.
This is all media-manufactured crisis. Same as “Democrats are in deep trouble. Republicans will win in a landslide in 2022 elections”.
The choice every American is facing is:
OR
Any republican win will be the last fair election we will ever see in this country before turning into Russia-style elections farce. Take a look at what republicans are doing in Ohio and Virginia ahead of next week’s elections.
I agree with you in this case, but in all fairness, based on past cycles, Democrats were likely to be in trouble at that particular time. If not for the actions of grassroots orgs in individual states working really hard on shoestring budgets, the DNC would have totally flubbed it.
They stand upon the shoulders of those who really care and see the existential threat we face. If we can survive this, the DNC's days are numbered, too.
Lol, the guy who literally instituted the Muslim ban or the guy who actually talks about being concerned for Gaza Human Rights and just doesn't want to lose the Jewish vote. Golly, tough call 🙄
And yet a higher percentage of Muslim voters supported Trump in 2020 than did in 2016.
Cite sources please.
Confusing as hell and against logic but, seems legit. https://www.npr.org/2020/12/04/942262760/majority-of-muslims-voted-for-biden-but-trump-got-more-not-less-support
I wonder if there was another factor in 2016
Hmmmmmmm
"It was revealed to me in a dream"
Voting for Trump shouldn't even be an option at this point, it's just ridiculous
He has a real chance of winning. He's currently leading in a majority of the most important states.
Muslims refusing to vote for Biden is like taking themselves hostage. You know if Trump gets elected he will try to deport them, inspire more hate crimes against them, and would be way worse for Palestinians.
Biden isn't the problem. The problem is that both parties support Israel.
Another problem with not voting is, in my eyes, the same as voting for your least preferred choice. Basically not voting is voting for the other guy.
The problem is the two-party system and that we don't have ranked choice voting. The DNC would rather a Republican win than to see an inspiring progressive win. People voted for Biden in 2020 because it was either him or Trump, but I believe a lot of people expected the DNC to take note and make changes to ensure their voices were heard. Instead, it seems like the DNC took that as a message that Biden is well liked and that they didn't even need another candidate. If Trump gets elected in 2024, it will be the DNC's fault and the DNC's fault alone. Don't go blaming the progressives, Muslims, or whoever else.
I understand and sympathize with their disappointment, but voting Republican would be even worse. The issue at hand is that both parties are pro-Israel.
It would be nice if the Democratic party wasn't simply the "less bad" choice for Muslims (and various POC) on some policies.
I think the loudest proPalestine voices are Democratic. That in and of itself offers at least some choice on the matter.
Check my post history. There are people who understand this and are perfectly OK with it. The logic behind it is truly baffling, but there are apparently a number of people willing to cut their own noses off to spite their face, and news reports back that up.
Why people think that Trump would be any better for the people of Gaza is beyond me, but people who think that way exist.
You mean the same Trump that wants to try again to institute a Muslim ban? Head of the party that wants to deport Palestinian people? The same guy that has 4 indictments and like 98 felony counts? We have a real constitutional crisis on our hands and if the GOP gets control again, they will NEVER relinquish it.
I feel like a broken record but Trump got a higher percentage of the Muslim vote running against Biden than he did running against Hillary.
Broken record here...cite sources please.
It sucks but it was technically correct. https://www.npr.org/2020/12/04/942262760/majority-of-muslims-voted-for-biden-but-trump-got-more-not-less-support
No they don't.
Muslim support for Trump went up from 2016 to 2020. Is it really crazy that it might go up again?
I have a gay family member that voted for Trump and will vote again, not even because of our domestic issues but because he has a hard stance about Israel and Palestine...
So... Offer yourself up for sacrifice so that people that you have no connection to might possibly maybe who knows could maybe be handled differently by a president who...(checks notes) doesn't give 2 shits about anything but money and himself...
I love my family, but man ignorance is really something...
I don't understand how people can not only vote against their own interests but vote for people who are openly hostile towards them. It boggles the mind.
Stupid can be any ethnicity. Trump always has some tokens that hang around.
I'm nervous there will be too many of them voting and not enough sane people voting next year
Because turnp has had a stellar relationship with minorities in the past.
Remember the forced hysterectomies hosted at the southern border during his years?
I mean, there isn't much difference between neoconservative Christian nationalism and other theocratic states.
The guy who wants to send brown people "back where they came from" vs the old Guy that actually seems to like brown and black folks, I'm not really seeing where they would possibly be disillusioned, but hey, a lot of people seem to be terminally stupid, and most of those stupid people like to tell us who they are by their red MAGA hats and shitty bumper stickers.
It’s a two horse race and no one can say that voting Republican will help Palestinians. If people vote for a protest against Biden then their vote is lost and the Republicans have a win. The same if people decide that they won’t vote. It’s still a win for the Republicans.
I say that all the time. I don't know if enough are willing to hear it though
RFK is polling at 22%. Winning independents with 36%.
I don’t think we can really dismiss him yet.
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/01/spoiler-alert-rfk-jr-takes-eye-popping-22-in-poll-against-biden-trump-00124855
Yeah, but RFK Jr is a nutjob. His supporters are peeling off of Trumpian crazies.
It might not be so simple.
“In a warning sign for Democrats, Kennedy was the leading choice for young voters, aged 18-34, in the poll’s surveyed population — 38 percent of whom chose the environmental lawyer. From the same age group, 32 percent picked Biden and 27 percent went for Trump.”
Without the particulars of whom was surveyed, that is just meaningless tripe.
I gave a link to it up the thread. It’s the most recent Quinnipiac poll. If you want another rude awakening, look at the latest NYT/Senna poll.
The polls also said there would be a "red tidal wave" in the 2022 elections. Don't trust the polls.
Polls are certainly not predictive this far out, but they are shifting significantly right now. And they don’t rule out a strong RFK run if more Dems decide to ditch Biden.
That doesn't tell me anything except the analysis is absurdly biased. "The environmental lawyer..." What a crock of shit. That's like describing Trump as a real estate mogul or Charles Manson as a Western Union delivery guy. Maybe once, but no longer.
LoL.... Biden, the guy who's supportive of pretty much all middle eastern countries that aren't maniacal death cults, or Trump who literally banned all Muslims from America.
Do y'all think Trump would deport them all to Gaza or to Geneva by mistake?
If anyone aside from white upper class males vote for trump, they're certifiably a moron.
Calling them a moron might feel good but it doesn't really get us any closer to keeping Trump out of the white house. He won once and I think it's definitely possible he could win again.
....did I somehow suggest that i was trying to be productive with that statement?
I generally assume communication is trying to accomplish something
It did, I set out to let it be known that I think these people are morons and so far its been a great success. A couple minor setbacks, but nothing we can't overcome!
People shouldn't vote for genocide. If your choice is between Hitler and Satan it's ok to not vote, or heaven forbid, support a third party.
Every election year I hear about this magical 3rd party that will save us from our shit choices. The only thing a third party would do is split democratic voters, leading to even more republican wins. Despite what left leaning media bubbles say, Republicans are not unhappy. They don't want a 3rd party for themselves and they will keep voting R until the grim reaper rips them from this plane of existence.
Demonstrably false. Check the rfk polls.
The people supporting rfk are the same nutjobs who supported Stien and Johnson. Those are not conservative losses.
Abstention and 3rd party choices are indirect support for the candidate you'd least prefer.
Both choices might be a shit sandwich, but the US system just doesn't support not eating one, so it might as well be the one you'd rather than the alternative.
I wonder if Democrats are gonna realize that eventually people get to the point where they will no longer eat shit.
Yeah then they switch to eating the douche, then switch back to the turd. It's just a constant flip flop between the worst choices cause the electoral college and fptp voting we use are a cluster fuck that leads to terrible results and nobody except the wealthy getting what they want. Because people can't be bothered with understanding cause and effect of actions and policies because the people on the tv told them what to think already.
And then Republicans cut taxes to rich again.
And then democrats don't do or can't do anything again
And the Republicans raise taxes for everyone else
And then democrats still do nothing except maybe hint at giving us free health care
And the Republicans repeal climate change bills
And the democrats still do nothing but act like maybe they might legalize weed even though they wont
And then a school gets shot up
And then no one cares
And then Republicans are elected
And then democrats are elected
And on and on the world turns and we confirm time is just a flat circle where we do the same thing over and over again until we all die or start a revolution and then watch the same cycle repeat just with new names.
Everyone constantly bickering over stupid shit not realizing the real issues are caused by the people high up in the ivory towers holding all the wealth and resources
A popular sentiment, but not among historians.
Third party voting in US politics has resulted in numerous labor and civil rights. women's suffrage, social security, 8 hour workday, etc.
Just another time when academia conflicts with your typical op-ed. A third party vote is probably the most powerful one you can make.
In the 2024 presidential race, if anyone who would otherwise vote for Biden, from any state that is not 100% safe, chooses not to over basically any issue(s), they improve the odds of an R, with a worse stance on that issue, winning the election. Ideology can take a long walk off a short pier when sobering reality comes knocking.
Your assumptions are doing a lot of work here.
It's an entirely different strategy:
A) I'll vote for you no matter what you do!
Versus
B) You must earn my vote.
The progressive policies I outlined above became law because the two major parties grew tired of losing close races, and decided to earn some third party votes.
"Earn my vote" is the bullshit mentality that led to Trump being president. Fuck all of that. R's are batshit, and if someone doesn't commit a vote that can matter against them, that person's part of the problem when R's win.
There is literally NO issue where someone who would normally vote for Biden has a better option under any realistic R candidate.
Rather than shaming people into eating shit, perhaps you could shame Biden into supporting a policy that has popular support in swing states.
Keep in mind that most low income people were materially better off under Trump, whose pandemic policies resulted in the lowest childhood poverty rate since the 90s. (These welfare policies were cancelled or expired under Biden.) So a Biden preference, if it exists, may not be as strong as you assume.
Plus, Republicans work really hard to prevent people from voting in the first place. By not voting, you do the very thing they want.
I'm sure the people whose lives are destroyed by Republican fuckery will appreciate your principled stance.
Sorry dude, my line is genocide. Not sure what yours is.
I'm sure you actually believe you're making a morally superior choice, but I disagree. Your sanctimony has no basis.
im sure they'll love the two right wing supreme court justices that are likely to come up in the next four years
Reading that made my skin crawl.
You can’t vote for or against them now anyway. Maybe give it a year and see where things stand then?
A year is an eternity in politics
Kinda the point. The presidential election isn't for a year. Any polling right now is pretty meaningless.
They aren’t really predictive of the 2024 election, but they are shifting significantly in response to current events.
Well I don't think it's meaningless. I think it's important to be aware of and follow trends as they develop. I'm a bit of a political wonk though.
No, they don't. Being Muslim does not make a Person stupid. They can be stupid, certainly, but it isn't because they are Muslim that they must face their stupidity.
This article says that a higher percentage of Muslims voted for Trump in 2020 than did in 2016. Is it really far fetched to think that percentage could continue to rise?
And their stupidity had nothing to do with being Muslim. I can assure you that stupidity runs deep through much of the Human species.
Okay, so then why wasn't there an even distribution of this stupidity?
Even with respect to what?
Demographics across the spectrum of humanity.
Trump didn't see a general increase of votership across the board, or he would have won, right? So it seems silly to hand wave it away as just "humans being stupid".
That presupposes they are independent factors. The more likely case rather, is that certain demographics attract stupid people. Trump famously said, "I love the poorly educated!" When a choice is involved, such as trump/Biden or dem/rep, we don't need to see an even distribution of the population within those choices. With religion, often the smarter you are the better chance of you self selecting out of religion.
So you're saying that their being stupid is more likely to cause them to be Muslim?
That's the wrong order. Out of people born into Muslim or religious households, there is likely an even distribution of intelligent to stupid. Then the smart people self select out of religion leaving a disproportionate amount of stupid people in religions. So lack of intelligence doesn't cause religion. Having intelligence can be a cause for people to leave religion.
So you're saying their being Muslim does have to do with their being stupid -- or at least their continuing to be Muslim does.
That's called correlation.
But see, if it was about religion generally, wouldn't we expect to see a similar trend across all religious people?
"Evil or Stupid? I'm not sure which is more dangerous. "
"Stupid! Evil only gets uppity every once in a while. Stupid is with you 24/7."
Not sure how that's relevant, but okay.
It's because people see Trump as a chance to make America a theocracy... and well, both Christians and Muslims have traditionally been keen on theocracies for some reason.
Maybe. I don't think Muslims are keen for a Christian theocracy especially a white Christian ethno-theocracy
My opinion is people wishing for theocracies are merely using religion as an excuse for control. Kind-hearted religious people adapt their religious views. Mean-spirited ones hide behind their religion as an excuse to do bad things.
I think there's more here at play than theocracy. I don't know why more Muslims supported Trump the second time around but something is causing them to support someone who has a track record of being hostile to them.
From the article:
Between this recurring news and the fact that it's being taken seriously it feels like team Biden is going to have to go further than an Islamophobia policy implementation. These numbers can likely lose him Michigan as it stands, and ignoring the Midwest has never worked out to a candidates (and all of our) detriment in the recent past. We need concise action to support these communities if we want to keep Michigan blue.
We need another candidate aside from Biden, even if it is to build momentum into the general election.
Yeah, super difficult. An imperfect candidate or a batshit crazy fascist. Whatever should we do, it's a real Sophie's choice.
A government that endorses killing their families or a government that endorses killing their families. Talk about a choice.
A crazy fact I learned just recently was Trump got a higher percentage of Muslim votes in 2020 then in 2016.
Then is not than God fucking dammit people can we please for the love of anything anyone has ever held dear stop pretending these are inter fucking changeable words?
Hey, here's a Snickers. You get disturbingly upset about minor mistakes when you're hungry.
Hangry!
I swipe on my phone to type and these mistakes are common. I didn't see that it put the wrong word. You can settle down, it isn't the end of the world.
In 20 years you idiots are gonna have the words officially reversed
That's called semantic shift and linguistically speaking it happens all the time. The word silly used to mean blessed, fortunate, and holy but it now means foolish and laughable. As that shift was going on there were people like you screaming about how the word was being used wrong. Now though if you were to use silly to mean holy you might offend someone. In my opinion there are more important things to put your energy into. You do you though.
I understand semantic shifts
So what with all the vitriol?
And the world will end as a result.
No, Let's just all throw out the rules
"Mark it zero"
Shut the fuck up Donnie!
"Genocidal" vs. "extremely genocidal". Gotta love America.
Maybe the DNC should just run someone who isn't complicit in a genocide. Problem solved.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Yet the Republican candidate facing Biden at this stage seems likely to be former President Trump, who famously issued a travel ban on predominantly Muslim nations in his first days in office.
Ameerah Al-Zahrani, a Pittsburgh, Pa. voter who is Muslim, said she feels “extremely discouraged” about the 2024 election and is considering a vote for Cornel West, the Harvard professor and longtime critic of Israel who is challenging Biden from the left.
In a memo released Thursday, Biden campaign manager Julie Chávez Rodriguez said her team feels “well-prepared to defeat whoever emerges from the extreme MAGA Republicans’ primary field,” but “this will be a very close general election.”
Besides the Muslim travel ban policy, Trump also made the controversial move to relocate the U.S. embassy to Jerusalem and declare it Israel’s capital, which infuriated Arabs in the region.
Alawieh noted that on the ground in Michigan, the Republican party is working hard to attract Muslims who may align with the GOP on wedge social issues.
“But I think they have been putting a fair amount of work and in a moment like this, the president’s failure to call for a cease-fire that saves the lives of Palestinian children is exactly the kind of thing that has the potential to open the flood gates of people abandoning the long streak of supporting Democrats.”
The original article contains 1,084 words, the summary contains 223 words. Saved 79%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
So Republicans are paying actors then?
No, they're more like paid actors themselves.
As always
People can't just begrudgingly keep voting for Democrats with policies they don't like. It's short sighted. Yes they could lose an election, at this rate they will anyway, but if we keep doing this then this cycle will just keep going over and over and over again. They need to see that supporting genocide will cost them elections.
If you want any chance for things to improve then you have to vote. Not voting or protest voting only helps the worst candidate.
Not really. Voting for shitty candidates condones their behaviour and sends a signal that they don't need to change.
Think long term. 20 years of the status quo is worse than 4 years of Trump. And before someone says it, no I'm not saying vote for Trump or that he's better than Biden.