Xi and Mao replace Jesus and Mary in Chinese churches

lemme in@lemm.ee to World News@lemmy.world – 357 points – Xi and Mao replace Jesus and Mary in Chinese churches
telegraph.co.uk

In their effort to “exert total control” over religion and to “sinicise” Catholic and Protestant Christianity, the authorities have “ordered the removal of crosses from churches [and] replaced images of Jesus Christ or the Virgin Mary with pictures of President Xi Jinping,” the report said.

The report concluded that “every facet of religious life for Buddhists, Catholics and Protestant Christians, Muslims, and Taoists” was facing pressure to incorporate CCP ideology, and religious elements considered contradictory to the state’s political agenda were being eradicated.

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Hey, finally, a religion tankies are comfortable with!

Upon further consideration, it was decided that perhaps what Marx had meant was that certain varieties of opium were, in fact, good for the people.

That's not even a Chinese innovation. At least the Chinese gave Mao a proper burial instead of desecrating his corpse Christian saint/Lenin style.

What the actual fuck???

Same shit, different century. Ever look up the actual history of Christmas or Easter? They were pagan holidays and Christian rulers forced everyone to jam as much Christian stuff into them as they could.

It's literally one of the oldest tricks in the book.

Honestly, concerns over the possibility that religion might be a political opponent and trying to neutralize it by replacing figures with one's own are not new.

It's just a little unusual to have it happening in 2024 between gods and secular leaders.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_syncretism

Religious syncretism is the blending of religious belief systems into a new system, or the incorporation of other beliefs into an existing religious tradition.

This can occur for many reasons, where religious traditions exist in proximity to each other, or when a culture is conquered and the conquerors bring their religious beliefs with them, but do not succeed in eradicating older beliefs and practices.

concerns over the possibility that religion might be a political opponent and trying to neutralize it by replacing figures with one's own are not new.

It's been a pretty common thing that dictators have done throughout recorded history.

It's not about agreeing or disagreeing with the specifics of the church, it's about eliminating divided loyalties.

Maohammed when?

As a Muslim this is one of the times I'm glad paintings of humans and animals are haram in Islam. We don't got none of that shit in mosques (or anywhere else, really).

Yeah Muslims are a bit sensitive when it comes these kinds of things

That's like saying "catholics are a bit sensitive when it comes to eating meat on fridays". It's a nonsense statement

Well you could look at incidence where things got out of hand like the "Muhammad cartoons crisis".

Or just look what happened in Sweden with the Quran

I think Muslims take this more seriously because, as someone who grew up in a region where most people identified Catholic (and most of the rest just had no religion) but didn't practice much, I wasn't even aware of that rule.

It is quite weird with catholics also. You should not make an image of god is part of the commandments, yet there is all the depictions of some old bearded white dude like in the sixtine chapel.

Especially during lent. Usually during lent you have to give up something usually people to for meat.

Technically the "give something up for Lent" thing isn't a requirement. It's encouraged, as long as it's actually leading you to be a better Christian, but it isn't needed. The only requirements, in the US, are:

  1. On Ash Wednesday and Good Friday, you fast from food. The minimum that counts is, basically, one meal and two snacks.
  2. On every Friday of Lent and also Ash Wednesday, you abstain from eating the meat of land-dwelling animals. In the US, the bishops have said it's alright to substitute this penance with something else for the rest of the year; but during Lent, it's a requirement.

Also Islam rejects intercessors. We pray to Allah s.w.t. and only to him. We asked for forgiveness for our sins from him and him alone. The prophets and messangers a.s. were all humans of best character and faith, which is why they were honored but also challenged with their tasks.

This is why countries like China are particularly oppressive towards Islam. The faith is structured in a way that makes it more difficult to coopt it into exerting control over people for a government. Unfortunately we see (partly) successfull attempts at it like in Saudi Arabia. But they also control two of the holyest sites with Meqqa and Medina.

If i understand correctly China is oppressing Buddhism more strongly too because it is also not well controllable. But i have to admit that i know little about the details of buddhist spirituality/religion.

Most religions in China get the same treatment from the CCP.

Christian communities have had similar experiences.

In 2016, thousands of crosses were torn down from churches throughout Zhejiang Province. The authorities have also broken up congregations that have not been approved by the state, while church leaders have been arrested and jailed.

The demolition of domes, crosses and minarets and their replacement by Chinese-styled tiled roofs and Buddhist-styled pagodas. It involves mandatory patriotic education for Buddhist, Christian and Muslim clergy and it entails party-approved sermons and prayers.

South of Xinjiang in Tibet, the authorities have restricted the practice of Tibetan Buddhism over the last decade. Religious festivals have been banned more frequently and government employees, teachers and students have been barred from participating in religious activities.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/9/26/a-jealous-god-china-remakes-religions-in-its-own-image

There are many more examples than just Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan comes to mind but also many other Muslim countries use Islam and Shari'a law to control the population or use religious laws as an excuse for their authoritarianism. No religion is free of that.

That's one of the dumber things I've heard today. Luckily it's still early, plenty more dumb stuff to read.

Is this just militant atheism or are you trying to make some kind of point?

Whether they were condescending or not "militant athiesm" is a ridiculous hyperbole - people are free to believe whatever they want, just as anybody else is free to comment on that belief system when theyre not a part of it.

just as anybody else is free to comment on that belief system when theyre not a part of it.

Yes, but "haha religion bad" is a trite point that contributes nothing to the discussion.

An outrageous claim from the Telegraph. I need a second source.

because China has always been oh so welcoming of other religions right? Sources are great but calling this an outrageous claim is a bit much given the historical context.

I mean, it's a pretty big step from "we need to pre-approve priests" to "actually, your religion is about something completely different now".

And, more importantly, it's the Telegraph. If it was the Guardian I'd go "gee whiz, that's a whole new level, very unexpected".

replaced images of Jesus Christ or the Virgin Mary with pictures of President Xi Jinping.

Its not saying actually Xi is your god now, its just making churches one more place where you see the dear leader. Still bad but not at the insane level of trying to rewrite one of the world's largest religions.

I have a lot of doubts about this article, but also i bet i could find multiple instances of churches in certain states taking down pictures of jesus to put up pictures of trump.

Why is the telegraph bad, I really like their journalists they have always come across well.

Doesn't it have a reputation for being a tabloid?

Yes. Yes it does.

From Media Bias/Fact Check:

Bias Rating: RIGHT

Factual Reporting: MIXED

Country: United Kingdom

MBFC’s Country Freedom Rank: MOSTLY FREE

Media Type: Newspaper

Traffic/Popularity: High Traffic

MBFC Credibility Rating: MEDIUM CREDIBILITY

Yep. That tracks with what I was remembering. Sometimes their stuff is fine, sometimes it's questionable right-wing rage-baiting.

Generally they write anti brown people propaganda.

They write anti Polish people propaganda as well. Remember the British elites hate poor people harder than they hate brown people.

she came into the manger, way overdue,

and plonked herself down next to the ewe.

then -- leaning back on the cow --

did she, the great chairman mao,

immaculately embirth winnie the pooh.

So techically these are Chinese sheeps, Chinese fodder, Chinese cloaks... A lot of things are coming to mind

A Chinese Mohammed A Chinese Jerusalem A Chinese Israel

Found this:

While we found evidence of both the removal of crosses from churches and the replacement of holy images with that of Xi in China, we find that the reports on the replacement of holy images with Xi to be potentially misleading in some ways in the social media posts.

"During the cold war, the anticommunist ideological framework could transform any data about existing communist societies into hostile evidence. If the Soviets refused to negotiate a point, they were intransigent and belligerent; if they appeared willing to make concessions, this was but a skillful ploy to put us off our guard. By opposing arms limitations, they would have demonstrated their aggressive intent; but when in fact they supported most armament treaties, it was because they were mendacious and manipulative. If the churches in the USSR were empty, this demonstrated that religion was suppressed; but if the churches were full, this meant the people were rejecting the regime's atheistic ideology. If the workers went on strike (as happened on infrequent occasions), this was evidence of their alienation from the collectivist system; if they didn't go on strike, this was because they were intimidated and lacked freedom. A scarcity of consumer goods demonstrated the failure of the economic system; an improvement in consumer supplies meant only that the leaders were attempting to placate a restive population and so maintain a firmer hold over them.

If communists in the United States played an important role struggling for the rights of workers, the poor, African-Americans, women, and others, this was only their guileful way of gathering support among disfranchised groups and gaining power for themselves. How one gained power by fighting for the rights of powerless groups was never explained. What we are dealing with is a nonfalsifiable orthodoxy, so assiduously marketed by the ruling interests that it affected people across the entire political spectrum."

-Michael Parenti, Blackshirts and Reds

The TLDR: Don't criticize China, you're wrong anyway.

I need to see the nativity scene version of this! But with Xi's old face on baby Jesus.

I had to double check to see if this was an onion article.

To be honest, I don't trust The Telegraph any more than I trust The Onion. At least The Onion is straightforward about what they are.

The Onion is quite accurate, they just publish too early.

When I see tankie lemmings, I just point to this type of stuff....

You point to poorly sourced telegraph articles and you expect to be taken seriously?

Hail, Mary Mao, full of grace,
the Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou amongst women
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Xi.
Holy Mary Mao, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.

Hail, Mary Mao, full of grace...

That's a fairly direct transition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_religion

There's a really good mod for Crusader Kings 2 where you play in a post-apocalypse America and one of the religion groups is Americanism, with the Founding Fathers as gods.

It's supposed to be a commentary on the concept of the American civil religion but it's mostly just awesome because NYC is still a Republic that follows one of the branches, and one of the starting families that rules Gotham is the Waynes :)

Reestablishing America as Batman wasn't quite what I expected from a CK2 mod but it was the best possible way to say goodbye to the system before CK3 dropped.

I watched "The Man in the High Castle", and the Christian imagery and symbolism in a former Christian Church were replaced with Nazi symbolism. I thought it was a bit farfetched, but now hearing something similar being done by China as part of totalitarianism, it is rather spooky. I've heard religious buildings being destroyed, but converting places of worship and blatantly removing its past to align with state ideology is far more surreal and haunting, and I am an agnostic atheist.

The end goal of fascism, per Mussolini:

"All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state."

Fascism innately rejects the concept of the separation of powers and human rights alike.

If you view the traditional three pillars of heirarchy and power in a capitalist society as the state, the corporations, and the church, the absorbtion of both corporate and church power is simply the end goal. You might also ask "couldn't the corporate powers or churches effectively do the same thing by absorbing the others instead?"

Funnily enough, Hirohito and Japan had already effectively absorbed that pillar of power with State Shinto and the literal deification of the imperial line.

This worked out great for Lenin and Stalin who just skipped the middle step and outlawed the church, then put their statues everywhere

Dictators always do that.

And, not because they're atheists as the butthurt Christians so often claim.

It's all about centralized control and not allowing for divided loyalties or spaces for people to gather outside the party's control.

The US has it figured out, give the churches that support you special privilege

And slaughtered a lot of clerical people in the wake. There is a monastry where more than 1000 monks have been murdered under Stalins influence in Mongolia.

Overall tens of thousands of clerical people must have been murdered under Stalin

The Chinese approach is far more effective I fear. The Soviet way worked only with mixed results and was more ideology driven than logical. In Poland, the Catholic Church became a huge factor in the opposition because of that. If religion is deeply rooted in society, controlling and steering religion makes for a powerful tool to control the masses while fighting it automatically makes it a strong opposition force.

I can't wait to go Christmaos Jinping this year! They just put in a new Target in the workers quarter.

Religion is the opiate of the masses and the CCP insists on being the only dealer around

Saint Winnie the Pooh

Seriously the onion can't keep up with reality.

Replace Mary in the manger with Mao. Now Mao is giving birth to Jesus. Weirdo.

Replace baby Jesus with adult Mao in the manger.

I wouldn't be able to stop laughing in that church.

That is soo messed up

Managed to make religion more believable by replacing the made up with real people.

I mean if you really don't think there was a Jesus that existed, was popular, and was executed by the Roman empire, then I think you may be the mistaken one.

Saying that he wasn't the son of God and his mother wasn't a virgin is a different story however

Without the super powers, none of the rest matters.

The was a Saint Nicholas, doesn't mean there's a Santa Claus.

Okay, but Mao is treated like a pseudo-godlike figure in China, similar to how Jesus was a guy but is treated like a god by Christians.

Except there's no contemporaneous record of jesus either existing or being executed by the Romans, despite them keeping detailed records of people they did execute.

It's a pretty high bar to expect bureaucratic details of people executed in a far flung part of the empire to survive 2000 years

That'd be true for the vast majority of figures from that time. Also I'd like to see evidence for your implied claim that apparently the Romans kept vast swathes of paperwork concerning executions and that the vast majority of it was preserved until this day.

I’m first in line to make fun of basically all religions (ones that would have you take things on faith, anyway) but those that want to should be left alone to practice how they want.

Good thing all the sources are from US based institutions and NGOs. Must mean they are completely factual and unbiased.

First that's attacking the messenger not the message. Cope. Second seeing how ML rely on information disproven nearly 100 years ago. And how ML state media is worse than western media on every metric. A true accomplishment! It's an especially sad and hilarious tactic.

So if a known liar makes an unfalsifiable claim you think people should just take it as fact? That’s absurd.

While fucked up, at least Xi and Mao are nominally real (though their particular origin stories and revised histories are also just as made up as those of the religious bunch).

I'm a "pagan" demonolater, therefore, I do not worship the christian god neither Christ as a "savior" (I'm actually a Lilith's worshipper) but, it's needed to be mentioned that the existence of Christ as a Nazarethian man is well-proven even by the religion-free science and history. While I agree that it doesn't prove any of his "holiness" nor his affiliation to "God himself", he truly existed as a man. One doesn't need to worship Christ to know his historical existence as a human being.

For example, as from Wikipedia's article regarding Publius Cornelius Tacitus, a Roman historian:

The Annals is one of the earliest secular historical records to mention Jesus of Nazareth, which Tacitus does in connection with Nero's persecution of the Christians.

Also from the article regarding Yosef ben Mattityahu, a Jewish historian:

Josephus's works are the chief source next to the Bible for the history and antiquity of ancient Israel, and provide a significant and independent extra-biblical account of such figures as Pontius Pilate, Herod the Great, John the Baptist, James, brother of Jesus, and Jesus of Nazareth

It's worth mentioning that the latter is Jewish and Jewish beliefs do not worship Jesus (because the arrival of a "Mashiach" is a promise yet to be fulfilled by "HaShem", according to Orthodox Jewish tradition), so I bet his work is even more valuable in proving Christ as a man than the bible's new testament itself.

Let China dive this shits into Middle East countries’s mouth :)